Skip to main content

Yesterday, a new report from Peace Now, led me to diary Increased Settlement Construction Since Annapolis.

Today, I’m prompted by the New York Times. Steven Erlanger writes In Gaza, Hamas’s Insults to Jews Complicate Peace.

Since Hamas took over Gaza last June, routing Fatah, Hamas sermons and media reports preaching violence and hatred have become more pervasive, extreme and sophisticated, on the model of Hezbollah and its television station Al Manar, in Lebanon.

  * * *

"If you take a sample on Friday, you’re bound to hear incitement against the Jews in the prayers and the imam’s sermon," said Mkhaimer Abusada, a political scientist at Al Azhar University here. "He uses verses from the Koran to say how the Jews were the enemies of the prophet and didn’t keep their promises to the prophet 1,400 years ago."

Some people tell us that Hamas is ready to negotiate peace with Israel, and clearly recognizes Israel's existence. This notwithstanding the fact that the only evidence offered is part of an op-ed by a senior Hamas official that talks, in sugar-coated terms, about the destruction of Israel via implementation of the claimed Palestinian Right of Return to sovereign Israel (not just a state of Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with its capital in East Jerusalem).

Erlanger is quite clear, however, that, although Hamas sometimes talks about a temporary truce with Israel, because "Muhammad made a temporary hudna, or truce, with the Jews about 1,400 years ago,"

[N]o one in Hamas says he would make a peace treaty with Israel or permanently give up any part of British Mandate Palestine. "They talk of hudna, not of peace or reconciliation with Israel," said Mr. Abusada, the political scientist. "They believe over time they will be strong enough to liberate all historic Palestine."

Indeed, as Erlanger notes and anyone who cares to be informed already knew, "The [Hamas Covenant] is a deeply anti-Semitic document and cites a famous forgery, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, as truth." Here's a representative selection:

* "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)." (al-Banna founded the [Egyptian] Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is an offshoot)

* "'The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.' (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)."

* "Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. . . . This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement." (A waqf is  an inalienable religious endowment in Islam.

* "Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement."

* "The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised."

* "Zionist organizations under various names and shapes, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, espionage groups and others, . . . are all nothing more than cells of subversion and saboteurs. These organizations have ample resources that enable them to play their role in societies for the purpose of achieving the Zionist targets and to deepen the concepts that would serve the enemy. These organizations operate in the absence of Islam and its estrangement among its people. The Islamic peoples should perform their role in confronting the conspiracies of these saboteurs. The day Islam is in control of guiding the affairs of life, these organizations, hostile to humanity and Islam, will be obliterated."

* "With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there."

* "They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it."

* "The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

Erlanger provides examples of Hamas television programs directed at children. Many of these can be viewed, along with transcripts, at The Middle East Media Research Institute TV Monitor Project. Erlanger mentions MEMRI, about which he notes, "no one disputes their translations[.]"

As I wrote yesterday concerning the Palestinians, "I am not ignoring the problems caused by various [Israeli] actions and failures to act. But so long as it is fair, not every diary needs to focus on both sides. Accordingly, unless anti-[Palestinian] Kossacks choose to use the comments to try to delegitimize [the creation of a state of Palestine as part of a "two states for two peoples" peace settlement], I urge friends of [Palestine], among whom I count myself, not to attempt to balance a discussion of [Hamas's] defects with comments pointing out problems on the [Israeli] side."

That said, I am not against Israel talking to Hamas. If Hamas follows the PLO in back-channel talks with Israel, as in the original Oslo process in Yitzhak Rabin's day, then, perhaps, Hamas can become a negotiating partner. (It would then no longer be the "Hamas" of its origins and the present day.) But public participation in peace negotiations reasonably requires that those participating accept that the end in view is a peace settlement that leaves both sides -- Israel and a nascent state of Palestine -- in existence.

Also, again as I wrote yesterday, I hope that "supporters of Senator Obama, among whom I count myself, will encourage him to make a priority of working for a "two states for two peoples" peace settlement between Israel and the Palestinians, and that supporters of Senator Clinton will encourage her, in the spirit of President Bill Clinton's important efforts to achieve such a peace, to be as forthright as Obama has been." That, Barack Obama recognizes both that  "Israel's security . . . is non negotiable" and that being pro-Israel does not mean being pro-Likud.

In this spirit, I hope that American and Israeli policies will aim, so far as possible with safeguarding Israel's security, at improving the daily lives of ordinary Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank, as well as holding out a clear and credible promise of a state of Palestine alongside Israel, with its capital in East Jerusalem, provided the Palestinians are able to come together to agree such a "two states for two peoples" peace settlement. In those circumstances, I am reasonably confident that Hamas either will accommodate itself to the new realities -- perhaps splitting -- or will be bypassed by the Palestinians themselves.

Originally posted to another American on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:33 AM PDT.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

    •  What does Obama say about Palestinians' security (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eiron

      ...from Israel? Is it non-negotiable as well?

      Well, no. This is Obama's response to Israel's starvation policy, a policy that would rightly be condemned and prosecuted as a crime against humanity:

      All of us are concerned about the impact of closed border crossings on Palestinian families. However, we have to understand why Israel is forced to do this... Israel has the right to respond while seeking to minimize any impact on civilians.

      Forced to starve people...

      Let's make this closer to home.

      "All of us are concerned about the impact of closed border crossings on Israeli families. However, we have to understand why Palestine is forced to do this... Palestine has the right to respond while seeking to minimize any impact on civilians."

      Or better yet...

      "All of us are concerned about the impact of closed border crossings on Jewish families. However, we have to understand why Arabs are forced to do this... Arabs have the right to respond while seeking to minimize any impact on civilians."

      I wonder what kind of reception Obama would receive if he'd said either. No, I don't have to wonder.

      His own pastor becomes Obama's albatross, although the man speaks the truth about the conflict which, contrary to Obama's claim, can not be reduced to "radical Islam". But you do what you gotta do to get elected. Right?

      And as for Hamas, there are moderates (relatively speaing). Try googling "Hamas moderates". Plenty of articles on the subject magically appear with names and thoughts and point of views. And those are the ones who should be empowered and the extremists marginalized.

      Just perhaps, if the Hamas moderates were empowered, were they in lead, perhaps something could be done about that covenant. You never know...

      Nice passive/aggressive call-out too...well, not really.

      The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

      by callmecassandra on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:17:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If "plenty of articles" appear (3+ / 0-)

        documenting the existence of Hamas "moderates (relatively speaking," perhaps you'll favor us with some links and information regarding the substance of their "moderat[ion] (relatively speaking)."

        •  googling is fundamental (0+ / 0-)

          And you really did not need me to do this.

          Link

          Pick one.

          The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

          by callmecassandra on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:51:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I do know how to google. But you're the one (5+ / 0-)

            making claims about Hamas "moderates (relatively speaking)." To sustain your claim, you have the burden of documenting it. The results of a google search don't suffice.

            •  "The results of a google search don't suffice." (0+ / 0-)

              Yes, it does. You just refuse to read them, even though you got a glimpse and know what I say is true. But in any case, the google links really weren't for you as I'm aware we won't ever come to any agreement on this particular matter.

              People can click on the link and check the articles out for themselves, decide for themselves, get different perspectives (a great many of them), without me adding my bias.

              Thanks for the opening and venue.

              The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

              by callmecassandra on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 10:24:16 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Actually, he's right (5+ / 0-)

                You can't cite a source which you do not provide!

                If you provide actual links, rather than vapor, you might be able to make your argument but right now, you've literally got nothing.

              •  'Moderates' like Wael Al-Zarad? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JNEREBEL, Zionist American

                From MEMRI

                Following are excerpts from a TV program featuring Palestinian cleric Wael Al-Zarad, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on February 28, 2008:

                Wael Al-Zarad: In short, these are the Jews. As Muslims, our blood vengeance against them will only subside with their annihilation, Allah willing, because they tried to kill our Prophet several times.

                [...]

                What should we do with these people? What is the best solution for them? Should it be by shamelessly bestowing kisses, regardless of our religion and our morals, on satellite TV and in clear view of the whole world? Should it be through futile meetings, which are usually conducted on carpets red with the blood of martyrs? Or should it be through an exchange of despicable smiles and ugly handshakes?

                [...]

                What is the best solution for these people, who have perpetrated every possible thing against us? They have destroyed our homes, killed our children, taken our land, and plundered our resources. They have turned our mosques into pubs and bars, where they drink alcohol and get women drunk. From the dome of the Al-Aqsa Mosque, they proclaim that Ezra the Scribe is the son of God.

                [...]

                By Allah, people, the Jews do not deserve such a fuss. They do not deserve to be feared. The Jews are not a terrorizing bogeyman. The Jews are nothing but human scum, who came as scattered gangs to occupy our land. By Allah, if each and every Arab spat on them, they would drown in Arab spit. By Allah, if each and every Muslim spat on them, they would drown in saliva. By Allah, if the Arabs and Muslims turned into flies, the Jews would die from their buzzing. Therefore, my dear brothers, the Jews do not deserve to be feared so much. Therefore, I ask with pain and sorrow: Isn't there a single reasonable man in any of the Arab air forces? Isn't there a single reasonable man among them, who will break through these aerial borders, and bomb the Jews deep in their own land? Where are all the Arabs and Muslims?

                •  aA... (0+ / 0-)

                  you know very well that's not who I meant.

                  Did I make a claim anywhere that Wael Al-Zarad is moderate?

                  You invite people to dialogue, then be honest in this dialogue.

                  You know that there are Hamas moderates. And if you're logical, you understand that the extremists in Hamas can be marginalized if the moderates were empowered by Israel, the U.S., Europe and the surrounding ME nations. And this would be one step closer to the two-state solution you supposedly support.

                  It happened with Fatah. It can happen with Hamas.

                  The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                  by callmecassandra on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 10:41:38 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  But googling "Hamas" and "moderates" (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    livosh1, wxlr, Zionist American

                    yielded about 828,000 hits. I just wanted to encourage you to provide sources, not a haystack in which, you tell us, we can find the pin or pins of Hamas "moderates (relatively speaking)."

                    •  I can concede your point on a technicality. (0+ / 0-)

                      Sort of. But it's a technicality that's not worth much.

                      Anyone clicking on the google link can see the first three links about Hamas moderates from credible sources. If the information was obscure or difficult to find (such as the application of international law to the question of whether Gaza remains occupied) then I would've been more specific.

                      As is, there is no need.

                      We are not in school here. I'm not working on an essay, a thesis or dissertation. It's a blog. And less than that, my post was a comment, not a diary.

                      The sources are in the link. It's your choice whether or not you spend a second clicking on the first one that supports my argument.

                      The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                      by callmecassandra on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 11:50:09 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  So who is the moderate? (0+ / 0-)

                    Khalid Mishal?  The late Sheikh Yassin?  The military commanders on the ground in Gaza?

                    You're waving your hands and saying that there MUST be moderates in Hamas.  Why must there be?  Why must they have any pull whatsoever?

                    We've all seen the occasional translation into english of a Hamas leader saying maybe they'll accept an Israeli permanent state -- EVERY single time, someone more senior or the same leader will clarify the next day that they didn't really mean it and their ultimate goal is still the annihilation of Israel.

                    What "moderates"?  You can't just apply your western pattern of what would "make sense" and conclude that there must be cooler heads.

  •  Rightwing Israelis (and the U.S (6+ / 0-)

    government) are  great allies of Hamas, creating the atmosphere for extremism. A moderate government cannot emerge among a people under occupation--it's simply impossible.

    Maybe, just maybe, Obama could mention what Israel is doing in Gaza--a disgrace that's gone mostly unmentioned in the U.S.

  •  the issue of the 2008 election is about (4+ / 0-)

    competence and the restoration of our democracy, not israel or its self-created enemies.  the discussion of israel in this country is never balanced with regard to israel's responsibility - irrationally so.  bottom line, this is a wedge issue, and i am not interested in the bait.

    •  Is it a manufactured wedge issue, (0+ / 0-)

      or are most Americans generally biased toward supporting Israel, based on religion, political values, personal affiliations, etc.?

      I'd love to see analysis of this.

      "I decided to force-feed him, but he wouldn't eat... I hated myself for making him eat, but I hated him more for not eating."

      by Shaviv on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:43:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  "Self created" enemies of Israel (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dhonig, JNEREBEL, zemblan, dashound

      10 Arabs states attacked Israel DAY ONE when it formed.

      The leader of the local Arabs, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al Husseini, was an architect of Hitler's Final Solution.

      In 1929, there were Arab pogroms, massacring women and children in Hebron.  Only because these people were Jewish, and no other crime.

      The PLO formed in 1964, 2 1/2 years before 1967.  The motto?  Taking over ALL of Israel.

      Israel's enemies are not 'self created.'  But they will be defeated.

  •  A pox, damnit (0+ / 0-)

    on both their houses.

    I like Israel as a place, I like most Israelis I know and that I've met as people. Even the soldiers who browbeat you for accidentally leaving a knife in your carry-on luggage are reasonable about it. However: their current government has shit for collective brains.

    I don't know many Palestinians. Most of them are the kids of people who came to the USA fifteen years, twenty years ago, maybe more. They are also nice folks.

    But, their political representation to the news media is also very off-kilter.

    Sometimes it seems that if you eliminated national politics from the equation and let people deal with each other as individuals or in small groups, and sit on the first asshole to reach for his gun, you'd probably get people who get along better.

    As an aside:

    I find it nearly impossible to get this kind of information through Google because I get everyone's opinions, but rarely facts. So, I have been told, not by an Israeli, that areas controlled by the PA are effectively "Judenrein" (that was the word used, I'm quoting), while areas controlled by the Israeli government (not the military, not settlers) are not "Arabrein". I don't know how accurate this statement is. Anyone else know?

    "I decided to force-feed him, but he wouldn't eat... I hated myself for making him eat, but I hated him more for not eating."

    by Shaviv on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:42:25 AM PDT

    •  Edit: "get people TO get along better" (0+ / 0-)

      blah
      more coffee is needed.

      "I decided to force-feed him, but he wouldn't eat... I hated myself for making him eat, but I hated him more for not eating."

      by Shaviv on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:44:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It is 100% accurate (0+ / 0-)

      I defy you to list a single Jew under the jurisdiction of the PLO.  There is not a single one.

      Moreover, it is clear that any 'Palestinian state' would be a Judenrein one.

      Israel is not similarly 'Arabrein.'  A good 15-20% of the population are Arab Israelis.

      •  Perhaps that's because wherever Israel allows, (0+ / 0-)

        or tolerates, Jews to settle in the West Bank the government extends its protection over them.

        •  It is because Jews were expelled from their homes (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dhonig, JNEREBEL

          In 1948, in the land they were living in that became part of Jordan and Egypt.

          No one speaks about this, but it is a simple fact.  These Jews were actively expelled from their homes.

          There was not a single Jew left in Judea and Samaria after 1948.

          And there would not be a single Jew left in any 'Palestinian state.'  See: Gaza expulsion.

          No one wants to talk about it, but the 'two state solution' in point of fact would thus require expelling hundreds of thousands of Jews from their homes.

  •  OMG (9+ / 0-)

    How many times must Hamas declare it's desire and intention to murder Jews before it's clear that their intention and desire is to murder Jews?

    •  I don't think there's any doubt about that. (0+ / 0-)

      The question is, is that a goal based on the situation they find themselves in (as a whole) at any given time, such that they would be willing to put it on the back burner with the right prompting, or is it part of their fundamental mission which will never be far from the forefront of Hamas activists' minds?

      Yeah, your mind is made up. Mine too. But, just because we believe something doesn't make it accurate...

      "I decided to force-feed him, but he wouldn't eat... I hated myself for making him eat, but I hated him more for not eating."

      by Shaviv on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:46:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  *Applause* (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dashound

      Thank you for this statement!

  •  You can't sustain occupation and expand peace. (5+ / 0-)

    The occupation and settlements are the lifeblood of Hamas. They live on it. Some in Hamas would rather fight than negotiate. However, you will never destroy Hamas or begin to heal that land without Israel ending their occupation and illegal settlements.

    Read the Day of Affirmation Address by RFK!

    by Common Cents on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:44:59 AM PDT

    •  This is nonsense (8+ / 0-)

      The Arabs were committed to Israel's destruction before there were any settlements.  Today Israel does not occupt Gaza.  So it is not the ocupation that is at the root of the problem.  The Arabs feel they are fighting a war of attrition which they will eventually prevail.  They do not care how many generations it takes.  

      Like any other sovreign nation Israel has the right to protect itself from existential threats.  I personally believe that Israel should eventually withdraw from the West Bank and leave the Arabs to their own devices.

    •  Similarly (4+ / 0-)

      Israel needs a state of war to continue their occupation of lands beyond the 1948 mandate.  Under the 4th Geneva convention, such occupation must be temporary and necessary militarily.   ISrael has certified that the settlements are temporary and will be removed when they are no longer necessary militarily.

      Israel needs an adversary.  Ironically, Israel funded the creation of Hamas as a counterbalance to the militant PLO.  

      Hamas needs an adversary.

      Islamic Jihad has been cut out of the political process, and they are just pissed.  Al Aksa now has Israeili provided weapons and they are continuing to fight their political rivals.

      Hizbollah, similarily rose out of Amal, also funded by Israel to fight the PLO.  

      Time to break this insane cycle.

      Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

      by Eiron on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:52:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  OMG? (0+ / 0-)

    Some bug is changing the subject lines to "OMG", is it a prayer or a curse?

    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

    by Eiron on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:53:45 AM PDT

  •  What Is The Policy? (3+ / 0-)

    From the lead editorial in Haaretz today:

    Had Peace Now not published reports from time to time, it is doubtful anyone would have been aware of the continuing construction in the settlements. One might have assumed from the declarations by Ehud Olmert's government that construction had been suspended and that efforts were being made to reach a peace agreement to include withdrawal from most of the West Bank. From the complaints by the settlers' leadership as well, one might have concluded that there was a freeze on building and that the settler youth were really and truly homeless.

    But quite different things are happening in the territories. The dynamic of deception is continuing. Deception of the Americans, deception of the voters for parties that etched peace on their standard, deception of the Palestinians and above all self-deception. Our top leaders have joined together on a course that has no objective. These include Defense Minister Ehud Barak, whose political path no one understands and which he himself is not bothering to clarify, the prime minister, who serves as a commentator on reality instead of shaping it, and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, who is conducting negotiations on evacuation while the government is continuing to build.

    Really, where is the policy of expanding the settlements in the West Bank headed?

  •  Some of the SinnFein/IRA rhetoric (0+ / 0-)

    was pretty over the top, too. Back in the day.....

    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

    by Eiron on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:02:18 AM PDT

    •  Actually, a pretty good example. (5+ / 0-)

      And they were required to prove, over about 10 years, that they had actually given up violence before they were even allowed to sit at the table.  

      "I remember every detail. The Germans wore gray. You wore blue."

      by dfb1968 on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:16:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  IRA, yes, Sinn Fein, No (0+ / 0-)

        Like Hamas has a political wing and an armed wing

        Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

        by Eiron on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 10:07:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Also correct (6+ / 0-)

          and still analagous.  Gerry Adams was able to traipse all over the world talking about his struggle, but wasn't allowed to sit at the big kids' table until the IRA disarmed.

          If you want to propose to Hamas that they use the Northern Ireland example in full, I'll sign on behalf of Israel tomorrow.

          "I remember every detail. The Germans wore gray. You wore blue."

          by dfb1968 on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 10:10:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  OK (0+ / 0-)

            Well The Republic of Ireland had a Constitutional Claim to ALL of Ireland from 1922 to 1998.

            Just like the Hamas Charter.

            Demands were to stop shooting.

            Next Demand was to disarm

            Last Demand was to give up claims and historic bits of Paper.

            Israel is demanding Hamas accept Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. The IRA never accepted the position of Northern Ireland as anything but temporary.

            Would Israel negotiate with a HAMAS which had a long term aim of a single state and return of all refugees as long as it only used peaceful means to meet its aim??

  •  In any negotiations (6+ / 0-)

    the side with the most to gain should be willing to compromise the most.

    In this case, the side with the most to gain doesn't seem willing to compromise even a little.

  •  international conspiracy????? I wish!!!! (2+ / 0-)

    As someone whose mother is Jewish, I too must be Jewish. If only HALF the conspiracy theories about Jews and Zionists were true....I'd be set for life. Too bad they're a crock of s****t.

    Dream on.....

  •  Hamas leader: "the Holocaust was exaggerated" (6+ / 0-)

    Here's Khalid Meshaal, that most cuddly of the cuddly Hamasniks, only days ago:

    "We don't deny the Holocaust. But, we believe the Zionists have exaggerated the number to get sympathy from other nations."

    so what's wrong with a little Holocaust denial here and there

    Clearly his heart is in the right place. Oh, that's right, he's only a antisemite because the Jews made him hate them. Kinda like the German guy from a while back.

    If Venus is made of ketchup and lions play pinochle, why doesn't the framistan frizzmaz the flomaton?

    by zemblan on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 12:38:32 PM PDT

    •  Well, Hamas isn't even the worst of this lately (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zemblan, Zionist American

      This is a Saudi Professor.  Like I've always said.  I like Hamas, at least they're honest.

      "I remember every detail. The Germans wore gray. You wore blue."

      by dfb1968 on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 01:05:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  true enough (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Eric S

        But when when the head of Hamas pulls this shit, Mr. Hamas Front And Center, Khalid Meshaal, the guy who gives Ismael Hyena his marching orders, then all that pollyanna quackery about how Hamas has changed so much and Hamas isn't like it was back in the day way back when, when they wrote that Jew-baiting charter -- well, that all kinda goes crunch against hard reality.

        If Venus is made of ketchup and lions play pinochle, why doesn't the framistan frizzmaz the flomaton?

        by zemblan on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 02:20:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  As always (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rusty Pipes

    As always, your mischaracterizations do not stand for even a single news cycle.  Haaretz is quoting  Meshal today to explain that:

    Hamas supports the united Palestinian position calling for the establishment of a fully sovereign Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, including Jerusalem, and the right of return for refugees, Hamas politburo chief Khaled Meshal told the Palestinian daily Al-Ayam.

    This is an extremely reasonable starting position.  It is highly unlikely that Israel would agree to these terms in full (particularly the right of return) but the only way a person can claim this in an unreasonable starting position is if they have no interest in a balanced peace at all.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site