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Jimmy Carter is planning a trip to meet the current leaders of Hamas, the Palestinian terrorist group that has as it's stated goal the elimination of Israel.  Known for it's current habit of launching missiles into Israeli cities in an attempt to kill as many civilians as possible, Hamas has been designated as a terrorist group by pretty much every government.  

So why is Jimmy Carter going to meet them?  He's supported Hamas in the past.  

Now, JImmy is also, allegedly, an Obama supporter as several diaries here in the last month or so have claimed.  

Why is Jimmy so intent on meeting with Hamas?  Does he not care about Hamas firing missiles at civilians every day, or since they only target Jews it's not worth bothering about?  He's supported Hamas and others, while severely criticizing Israel.  

All three presidential candidates have rebuked Carter, from McCain to Clinton and even Obama.  

Personally, I'm not quite sure what Carter is doing.  Does he honestly think that Hamas will say, "Right then--A luminary like Jimmy Carter wants us to stop killing Jews.  We'll listen to him!"  Does he even want that?  Carter has been accused of being anti-semetic recently, and while that may be controversial, what appears to not be controversial is that Carter can be labeled as anti-Israel.  What good could he do, or what is his goal?  He's not stated what he hopes to achieve, that I can find at least.

More generally, does the fact that Carter is once again appearing to promote or legitimize anti-Israeli groups and doctrine impact the image of the Democratic party?  The party is already facing attacks of being insufficiently on the side of Israel, and things like party leaders like Carter meeting openly with people who have openly vowed to destroy Israel only reinforce that image.  

Will this have any impact, or should Carter give it up?  The State department has come out and criticized his proposed meeting with Hamas.

He should cancel his trip.  He's already had enough enabling of terror against Israel; this will only cement that reputation.  

Originally posted to Vanceone on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:58 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I'm prescient (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    burrow owl, Eiron, andydoubtless, voila

    I can predict every comment soon to be placed here.

    "We have been told that we cannot do this by a chorus of cynics. It will only grow louder and more dissonant." Barack Obama 2.05.08

    by MLDB on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:59:49 AM PDT

  •  obakasama (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mijita, RAZE, Robobagpiper

    speaking out against Israeli policies should not be considered anti-Israel.

    There are many reasons Israel will soon cease to exist. This labeling of supporters as opponents may be one of them.

    Jesus ain't comin', go ahead and put the Nukes back now.

    by RisingTide on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:00:14 PM PDT

    •  I'm curious (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Drgrishka1, Doodad, Chuckie, Mbuto, browneyes

      Meeting with groups who have as part of their reason for existence "eliminate Israel" , and not to criticize said groups, seems to be a bit more than "speaking out against Israeli policies, wouldn't you agree?

      •  by the way (6+ / 0-)

        if you're going to suggest someone might be antisemitic, at least you could learn how to spell it properly.

      •  What about Zionist settelers? Their very being (7+ / 0-)

        indicates an attempt to eliminate the residents of the land formerly known as British Palestine.

        •  You mean land formerly known (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          pico, zemblan, psilocynic, Chuckie, voila

          as British Palestine, in turn formelry known as Judea and Samaria?  How far back do we get to go?

          •  How about this far, emphasis mine (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BlueGenes

            The history of Israel begins with the stories of the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph) from whom, the 12 tribes of Israel descended. Prior to this time, in the OT, are the series of creation and origination traditions. These provide genealogies from Adam to Abraham. The stories of the patriarchs as recorded in the OT, originated as oral traditions, passed down by customs and ceremonies accompanied by narratives across centuries. Many scholars think these traditions do not reflect an accurate historical account, but rather reflect the faith and historical effects of the patriarchs on the clans and tribes which eventually became the nation of Israel. The traditions were meant to foster national unity and belief. The exact family relationships recorded, and the movements of the nomadic peoples of this time may have been different from what is recorded in the OT. The book of Genesis for example, appears to have been compiled from three traditions know as "J" (Yahwist), "E" (Elohist), and "P" Priestly. The Priestly traditions are most concerned with geneaologies and precise dates, and thus provide the most historically accurate view. The other two traditions are interested in dreams and divine revelation given through intermediaries. There are descrepancies between the accounts, but the Priestly traditions form the best basis of Israel's early history. The dating for the recording of each tradition is around 950BC for "J", 750 BC for "E", and 539 B.C. for P although the traditions themselves are much older. It is generally accepted that no Israelite literature was written extensively before the reign of David. So the telling of these traditions was to convey the covenants of God with Israel and the nature of God. These gave Israel an identity as the people of Yahweh.

            The book of Exodus begins with a new king over Egypt who did not know Joseph. Who was Joseph? Egyptian sources record a time when an Asiatic exercised considerable authority on behalf of the pharoah. Most scholars think this was likely Joseph, and was during the rule of Ramses II who ruled from 1290-1224BC. Both biblical and extrabiblical material indicate that the conquest of Canaan under Judah took place around the 13th century. For example, there is archaeological evidence of the destruction of the towns of Bethel, Debir, and Lachish around this time. The earliest mention of Israel as a group of people, outside the Bible, is on a 'stele' (victory tablet) of Pharoah Merneptah which dates from 1220BC. He lists the people of Israel as those he conquered during a military campaign in Palestine. This corresponds to Exodus 1:11. Next comes the stories of Moses, which cannot be regarded as historically accurate in every detail. He is however unique among his people, and the most important figure in Jewish history. The Bible is the only source of information for his life and work. The time of Moses and the acts of the Exodus, are often pointed to as the time of Israel's emergence as a people of Yahweh, that is, their crystalization.

            Next came the conquest and settlement of Canaan. Joshua here is the principle figure and is an Israelite general and an assistant to Moses. He is Moses' successor. The book of Joshua, as compiled by a theologian commonly know as the 'Deuteronomist', shapes the narrative to show Yahweh as giving the victory to Israel and the people the land. Judges 1, shows a slightly different account, in that the submission of all the tribes and people of the land took several centuries and was not completed until the rule of David. Joshua led the Joseph tribes in establishing a stronghold in the central highland. Later as they moved toward the coast, the encountered Greek migrants called the Philistines.

            The Abrahamic monotheists, Jew, Christian and Muslim alike, can fight over it all they want.

            The IMF is a loan shark, bill collector, and repo man all rolled into one.

            by Kab ibn al Ashraf on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:26:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What's your point? (0+ / 0-)

              You want to dig up Phillistines and cede the land to their bones?

            •  From that same blockquote, (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              somtam, Scubaval

              you should have emphasized what came before it:

              The earliest mention of Israel as a group of people, outside the Bible, is on a 'stele' (victory tablet) of Pharoah Merneptah which dates from 1220BC. He lists the people of Israel as those he conquered during a military campaign in Palestine.

              In other words (if we buy the story), the conquerers you highlighted in boldface were actually the land's inhabitants before they were taken away by Merneptah generations before.

              But I agree with both of you that this obsession over who has "historical" rights to the land is both dangerous and a dead-end.  Everybody's got claims.  The question is: how do we get both sides to drop that obsession and approach the table from a more pragmatic, forward-looking point of view?

              Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

              by pico on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:03:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  You might also give equal time (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Eiron

        to sentiment in the other direction. "to eliminate Palestinians" Both sides have said similar things. Of course we only hear one side. That disinformation is what keeps us from rationally discussing their policy and our involvement in it in the U.S. - a good majority of Israelis themselves are opposed to their country's heavy handed policies. At least they can voice their opposition without being labeled anti-Semitic or self-hating Jews.

        I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere ~ Thomas Jefferson

        by valadon on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:32:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  no, they can't. (0+ / 0-)

          anyone who thinks that Israel shouldn't exist, is a self hating jew.

          at least so said my entire FUCKING jewish history class. with the teacher applauding.

          Jesus ain't comin', go ahead and put the Nukes back now.

          by RisingTide on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:34:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's not the issue and you know it. (0+ / 0-)

            Liberal Jews are labeled that simply for being opposed to Israeli policy, not because they think Israel shouldn't exist. What relevance does your Jewish history class have to that fact?

            I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere ~ Thomas Jefferson

            by valadon on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 10:28:59 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, a few jews I know think that Israel (0+ / 0-)

              shouldn't exist.

              I figure if you put it in a neutral tone, a lot of Jews would agree. They'd rather have a functioning state where Jews can live peaceably with all of their neighbors.

              Jesus ain't comin', go ahead and put the Nukes back now.

              by RisingTide on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:06:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well it's one thing to say that there are some (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                RisingTide

                Jews who may oppose the concept of Zionism for religious or other philosophical reasons, and quite another to suggest that Jews are necessarily self-haters because they oppose the occupation strategy imposed by the Israeli government or to say that they would wish for its non-existence in a militant way. Surely there are people of many stripes, including non-Jews, who may not subscribe to a Zionist ideology.

                But I do agree, that given the choice to live elsewhere peacefully, many people, Jew or non-Jew might share that sentiment.

                A lot of us can discuss this intellectually, it is quite another thing entirely to live in a war-ravaged country, or to be occupied by some governmental forces which restrict and contain your lives to some partitioned bantustan-like existence, or to be at a wedding or riding a bus to school and have someone with a strapped on bomb destroy everyone you love. Both peoples are hurting.

                I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere ~ Thomas Jefferson

                by valadon on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 12:56:29 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Israel will soon cease to exist? (9+ / 0-)

      Really?  How so?

    •  Care to list your many reasons? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Drgrishka1, Chuckie

      How did I live without him?

      by Pumpkinlove on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:15:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your mind seems rather closed... (0+ / 0-)

        If you're really interested, respond to this.

        Jesus ain't comin', go ahead and put the Nukes back now.

        by RisingTide on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:35:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I ask a question and you insult me. Why? (0+ / 0-)

          How did I live without him?

          by Pumpkinlove on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:47:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  not intended as an insult. (0+ / 0-)

            you have my most sincerest apologies. I often ask myself why I am such a poor writer -- I think it is because I step on so many people's toes!

            Jesus ain't comin', go ahead and put the Nukes back now.

            by RisingTide on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 07:22:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  also, part of the purpose of the comment (0+ / 0-)

            was to see if you were still reading... which I dind't make explicit, and probably should have. so many people don't come back to comments the next day.

            Jesus ain't comin', go ahead and put the Nukes back now.

            by RisingTide on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 07:22:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Now, on to the subject at hand! (0+ / 0-)

            I feel that Israel has lost its way. Back when it was formed, they wanted to be a model democracy (you can trace a lot of ideas there, including a 4% GNP on science).

            That brand spanking new and shiny feeling has worn off -- and in it's place, I find a theocracy.

            I find a place where Christians are not allowed to display bread during passover (for sale, they're shopkeepers) -- and such things are enforced by the police.

            I find a place fully as paranoid as Russia (not that that should be very surprising, judging by the immigration patterns).

            Israel has propped up corrupt dictatorships in nearby countries.  Believe it or not, even the terrorists want a functioning democracy that isn't directly done by their religious leaders.

            Israel should, and does not yet, understand why terrorists exist. They are not rebellious, they are revolutionaries.

            Israel has managed to survive for years, under the protection of the United States. That protection will end, sometime.

            And with Israel and the United States losing wars, when that protection is gone, so will Israel end.

            There may be better things, happier times ahead. But I fear that dead souls cry out for justice that will never come.  I do not believe that there is the will for peace in Israel, nor in Palestine, nor in Syria nor Lebanon.

            It is not my conclusion that Israel will not exist fifty years from now -- but that of a skilled political operative/observer.

            Jesus ain't comin', go ahead and put the Nukes back now.

            by RisingTide on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 07:30:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Carter may be wrong in meeting with Hamas, (23+ / 0-)

    but I am totally unwilling to attibute ill intent to his motives for doing so.

    If it is spelled correctly---it's a typo

    by alasmoses on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:01:23 PM PDT

    •  Does anyone KNOW his motives? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Chuckie, Mbuto

      I can't really imagine what pro-Israeli motive he might have.  But since all three presidential candidates plus the State department have called for him to not go, I don't think this should really be controversial.  He shouldn't go.  

    •  Why? (0+ / 0-)

      How did I live without him?

      by Pumpkinlove on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:17:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  he may be wrong, but he may be right (5+ / 0-)

      Carter is one of the best diplomats ever.  Look how much he has accomplished.  And he is always right about foreign nations and democracy and everything.  He should be given the benefit of the doubt.

      Im know that Hamas has bad guys in it, but they also help poverty.  

      Is it for this my life I sought?

      by Agrippa on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:20:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If memory serves, Chambarlain was not a (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Vanceone

        bad diplomat either.  Appeasing those intent on destruction of a sovereign state is a bit short-sighted, to say the least.

        •  this is the inflexible Bush doctrine (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MiklCraw4d, MadRuth, corvo, LynneK

          look how well it's going in the middle east and in the world. It's based on a strawman, a false analogy that one cannot, must not, ever, talk with one's enemies. Yet one can find literally hundreds of examples in history to counter this argument.

        •  Chamberlain was a sitting prime minister. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo, LynneK

          Carter left office 36 years ago.

          Here's a hypothetical for you.  If Churchill could have had a long-retired British public figure talking now and then to Hitler, would he have objected?

          I think not.

          •  Yes I would. Hitler should not have been (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Vanceone

            talked to.  He should have been defeated militarily, and the earlier, the better.  I would have objected to sacrificing some of Germany's Jews (or Gypsy's or Slavs, or gays) for "peace in our time."

            •  hindsight is 20/20 (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Eiron

              Monday morning quarter-backing is easy. Newsflash: FDR did not enter the war to prevent the holocaust. Does that make him complicit? Bringing up the Chamberlain strawman serves only one purpose: to obscure the complexities of history in order to do nothing.

              •  Yes, FDR is complicit at the very least (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Chuckie

                in the death of the Jews who were abord St. Louis.  It was FDR who prevailed upon the Cuban government to deny landing permits to the refugees, and it was FDR who denied same permits to enter the US.  So, yes, he is complicit at least in the death of those people.

                And while hindsight is 20/20, one would hope that something is learned from history.

                •  yes something is learned (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Eiron

                  learned as much from Northern Ireland as it is from Chamberlain or WW2. Cherry-picking from history to find support for what you already believe in advance is not especially helpful. No one is suggesting Israel "appease" Hammas, but talking is not always appeasement: if that were so, the spirit of all honest diplomacy would be impossible.

                  •  And given the 2000+ years of Jewish (0+ / 0-)

                    history where everyone who said that they wanted to kill the Jews followed through on the threat, one would hope that the Jews would learn to be very weary of talking to yet another group of people threatening to kill the Jews.

                    •  both sides in the P/I conflict have developed (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Eiron

                      a self-fufilling existential narrative of victimology that stretches back in time and acts as mythic foundation for eternal stalemate. The very fact that you bring up the entire length of the history of the Jewish people shows how people have fatalistically accepted that nothing will ever change: it's exactly the same narrative (with reference to Cromwell) that kept the Northern Ireland situation so seemingly inractable for so long. By viewing this conflict through such a metamythical, metahistorical and existential lens, you have already effectively blinded yourself from the possibility of peaceful change.

                      •  It's not that they accepted that nothing (0+ / 0-)

                        will ever change.  It is that they are rightfully leary of trusting people who promise to annihilate them.

                        •  well when I say that Israel should talk (0+ / 0-)

                          to Hamas I am not saying they should do so with naive expectations or anthing like that. I am admiting the possibility of the talks yielding nothing. But I am not seeing hoiw talking would make things any WORSE than they are.

                          •  It legitimizes terrorism (0+ / 0-)

                            It allows Hamas to continue terrorising Israelis in hopes that more terrorism will yield more concessions.

                          •  stalemate is what you've just asked for (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Eiron

                            do you have any ideas for how to end the conflict?

                          •  Yes. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gnat, Eiron, Elsinora
                            1.  Hamas agrees to foreswear violence and stops shelling Israel.
                            1.  Israel comes to the negotiating table in good faith and offers Palestinians a state with contiguous West Bank.
                            1.  Israel gets to annex some land from the West Bank in return for giving Palestinians land of equal size and value elsewhere.
                            1.  Some agreement is reached on the custody and access to the holy sites.
                            1.  Hamas agrees to a demilitarized state much like post-war Germany or Japan.  
                            1.  Israel agrees to help Palestinians (re)build things like airport and seaport.

                            I am sure there are some other provisions that need to be thought of, but that's the basic outline.

                          •  Agreed, although... (0+ / 0-)

                            I think it makes the most sense, ultimately, to have Israel gain Gaza and simply add an equivalent amount of land to the West Bank--then hand that enlarged West Bank over to the Palestinians.  Then both sides get a contiguous state, and it makes a Jerusalem-sharing proposition much more feasible.

                            Other than that, best peace plan proposal I've seen yet.

                            Why are Jews Democrats? Because the last time we followed a bush claiming to speak for God, we got lost in a desert for forty years!

                            by Elsinora on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:36:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It's not feasible to (0+ / 0-)

                            have Israel take Gaza.  

                            First, what is Israel going to do with 1.5 million Palestinians who live there?  Israel doesn't want them, and they don't want Israel.

                            Second, that pretty much leaves the Arab state without access to international waters, which I surpmise would be unacceptable to them.

                            As to non-contiguity, that is not unknown in the world.  See, e.g., US and Alaska, Russia and Kaliningrad, etc.  

                          •  I'd been thinking that the Gazans (0+ / 0-)

                            would be relocated to the West Bank on Israel's dollar, but I hadn't considered the international waters issue.  Then again, the Czech Republic doesn't have access to an ocean, and they do just fine.  and I was responding to the complaints from many on the Palestinian side that the proposed two-state solutions are unacceptable because the Palestinians won't have contiguity.

                            Why are Jews Democrats? Because the last time we followed a bush claiming to speak for God, we got lost in a desert for forty years!

                            by Elsinora on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:54:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, in theory I agree, (0+ / 0-)

                            but I don't think many would want to relocate from their homes.  And Israel wouldn't want them as part of their country.  So we are kind of stuck with forced relocation, something which I assume is not looked upon kindly by many people.  

                            But as for contiguity, like I said, it's not unusual.  Suboptimal, but not unusual.

                          •  Then the Palestinians (0+ / 0-)

                            will have to decide which they want more--a contiguous state or not having to move.  Currently, they want to have it both ways, and that will never work.

                            Why are Jews Democrats? Because the last time we followed a bush claiming to speak for God, we got lost in a desert for forty years!

                            by Elsinora on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:05:11 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I am with ya until point 5 (0+ / 0-)

                            unilateral diarmament hasn't been so succesful, historically

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:06:26 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It has been quite successful (0+ / 0-)

                            with Germany and Japan.  

                            To the extent that Palestinian Government would be worried about being attacked by Israel (an unfounded worry given the track record) I would be OK with some military presence a la Kosovo's K-FOR.

                      •  Hey, the Cromwell antipathy (0+ / 0-)

                        is real and present.  Never forget!, my great aunties used to cry about the perfidy of the Brits, Cromwell in aprticular.  Never trust a pommie, they advised.

                        Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                        by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:05:03 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  You are wrong on both Chamberlain and Ireland (0+ / 0-)

                In Northern Ireland it is simply not true that all sides have agreed to non-violence. True the main militant groups on both extremes have agreed to power sharing but there remain splinter groups, both Protestant/Loyalist and Catholic/Republican which both retain their arms and continue violent activities.

                For the most part this has deteriorated from a political struggle into a sort of mafia style control of the illegal activities within their community. In many respects the various IRA splinter groups are the worse at this and have killed during punishment beatings as recently as late last year. That was for not showing proper respect to the local bosses.

                As for Chamberlain, his belief in the good faith of Hitler was obviously naive. The tactic of big powers arbitrarily carving up tracts of other people's lands on the other hand had a long history. It was to continue post war with both the Yalta agreement and, dare I say, the slicing up of both India and Palestine. In both, two groups of the inhabitants expressed through political statements and violence, an unwillingness to live alongside the other. The British solution for both was to divide the land between the two groups and create two new nation states and in both there were non-contiguous states (in the case of Palestine, these were to be linked by "corridors")

                What is of course undeniable is that the Munich agreement delayed the outbreak of war for over a year. That was to prove vital in allowing the modernization of the Royal Air Force, which still had biplanes and the rebuilding of the land and sea forces. Without that period, it is unlikely that these could have been achieved and it is quite possible that Britain would have fallen in 1938/9.

                Hillary Clinton - More baggage than Wal Mart

                by Lib Dem FoP on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:31:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Had England and France defended Poland as (0+ / 0-)

              promised in treaty, not just with words, but deeds, Hitler's gamble would have been lost. end of story. But they didn't, and that just energized Hitler's staff.

              To fully understand Christianity's duplicity, first recognize that the Vatican's St. Peter's Square is actually an oval.

              by agnostic on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 04:00:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Is it wrong? (0+ / 0-)

      It depends on the result.

      Make that change.

      by barnowl on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:38:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  No, the problem is not meeting with Hamas. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wxlr

      The problem is that now that Carter associates himself with the virulent nonsense of equating Israel with apartheid South Africa, he has lost all credibility as an honest broker.  And that is actually a shame, given that the Camp David Accords of the 70s remain the most important diplomatic effort in the Middle East since the Arab/Israeli crisis began.  Too bad Carter has sabotaged his own ability to serve as a peacemaker.

      But talking to Hamas? According to Haaretz, most Israelis support contact with Hamas to address issues like the rockets and the kidnapping of Shalit.  Talking costs neither side a thing and could always lead to unforeseen benefits. So yes, talk if the opportunity arises -- but that means real talk with real players that actually might accomplish something, not show talk with an ex-president who has rendered himself irrelevant that Hamas will simple spin for propaganda purposes.  

      I will vote for whoever or whatever the Democrats nominate -- animal, vegetable or mineral.

      by Finck II on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:03:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sure (14+ / 0-)

    Because the current policy is working so well, after all...

    If only we could figure out a way to communicate less and kill more... Hmm....

  •  how dare they go and elect (21+ / 0-)

    people we don't want to deal with! Obviously, we should not allow the Palestinians to have elections until they show they can vote responsibly.

    •  Yeah, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Vanceone

      and then then expect to be treated as credible partners in any peace talks.  Screw Hamas.

    •  They can elect whomever they want (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Doodad, bugscuffle, wxlr, browneyes

      That does not impose any obligations on anyone else to deal with their chosen officials.  

      Europeans refused to deal with Austrian government while Joerg Haeder was in it.  Many countries refused to deal with former Austrian President Kurt Waldheim.  So what?

      •  This bit of logic is lost on those who think (0+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        Hidden by:
        taylormattd

        that Jew hating terrorists can be anything else but what they are...Jew hating terrorists. Their whole society is arranged to promote hatred of Jews from cradle to grave but "progressives," want to pull a Neville Chamberlain...again. Some people never learn.

        A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.

        by Doodad on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:28:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They teach their children to hate Jews (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Doodad

          in school
          on the radio
          on TV
          in the mosques
          in their 'summer' camps

          They teach their chldren to hate Yehuds (Jews).. not Zionists, not Israelis.. Jews.

          How did I live without him?

          by Pumpkinlove on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:33:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Dadgum right! (0+ / 0-)

          Kill 'em all, I say! Their whole society you say? Well blast them all off the face of the Earth! Then no one will compare us to Chamberlain! And surely after that, everyone will love us and all will get along, right? Oh foolish "progressives", don't you see that genocide is the only way to prevent those who wish to commit genocide?

          •  Oh brother. Can you get anymore melodramatic? (0+ / 0-)

            No one is saying that except maybe....YOU.

            Chill. BTW... progressives is in quotes for a reason.

            ie, it's not very progressive to legitimize murderous extremist bigots who have brought Jew hatred to an apex rivaled by only Hitler....another guy whose "party," progressives would have been stupid to legitimize.

            Hitler now, he KNEW genocide. Guys like you throw the term around like a used hankie.

            A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.

            by Doodad on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:49:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Hamas was elected to a legislative majority... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zemblan

      not to executive capacity.  That part came about through a bloodless coup--hardly democratic.

      I support Carter's decision to meet with Palestinian leaders, but it should be with Fatah, NOT Hamas.

      Why are Jews Democrats? Because the last time we followed a bush claiming to speak for God, we got lost in a desert for forty years!

      by Elsinora on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:19:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RAZE, borkitekt, synductive99

        Israel began arresting and imprisoning about a third of the Hamas elected leadership, and the Fatah, trained and equipped by OUR Gen Dayton, began assasination Hamas rivals, and Abbas dissolved the parliament, illegally, Hamas still had enough popular support to hang on.

        Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

        by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:23:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, Abbas' power to dismiss the Government (0+ / 0-)

          is unquestioned.  

          •  I am afraid not (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            RAZE

            only after a referendum or a vote of no confidence.  Neither occurred

            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

            by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:03:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Where did Abbas give (0+ / 0-)

              Hamas the authority to remove all of the Fatah people from positions of authority in Gaza and take over by military force?

              How did I live without him?

              by Pumpkinlove on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:19:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I am afraid so. (0+ / 0-)

              See relevant constitutional provision previously cited.

              •  Do you know the difference (0+ / 0-)

                between a "minister" (think US cabinet, appointed), and a MP, (think congresscritter, elected)

                The president can change his cabinet, but he can't dismiss a legislator  

                The cite you listed has no relevance, at all, period, to Abbas' action

                Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:02:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, I know the difference (0+ / 0-)

                  The problem is that Abbas dismissed Haniye, and in response Haniye staged a coup in Gaza.

                  •  And Haniya held an elected position (0+ / 0-)

                    not an appointed one, true?  Look, Fatah, Dahlan and Dayton, perhaps in collaboration with Israel, tried by force of arms, arrests and detentions to take the Hamas elected legislators out of the picture.  

                    It failed, Hamas got a bunch of weapons. And remains with enough popular suppr despite the sanctions,  In fact, it backfired.  

                    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                    by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:14:33 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  False... Haniya was an appointed PM (0+ / 0-)

                      And he was dismissed.  Contrary to law he refused to go.

                      •  and how is that working out? (0+ / 0-)

                        Hamas is getting stronger, Fatah is getting weaker, relative to popular support.

                        Any other good ideas in the US/Israel security establishment?

                        Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                        by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:20:24 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Right. (0+ / 0-)

                        he was elected PM by the majority of the MPs.  The basic law does not allow removal of the PM without dissolution of the governemnt and new elections.  

                        Didn't happen.

                        Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                        by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:22:18 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  That's just not so (0+ / 0-)

                          Ministers can be removed by Abbas.  I already cited the relevant article of the Constitution.

                          •  From Wiki (0+ / 0-)

                            but still an objective description of the deal

                            On June 14, 2007, Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas dismissed Haniyeh and appointed Salam Fayyad in his place. This followed action by Hamas armed forces to take control of Palestinian Authority positions that were in control of US and Israeli-armed and supported Fatah militias. The appointment of Fayyad to replace Haniyeh has been challenged as illegal, because under the Palestinian Basic Law, the President of the Palestinian Authority may dismiss a sitting prime minister, but may not appoint a replacement without the approval of the Palestinian Legislative Council. According to the law, until a new prime minister is thus appointed, the outgoing prime minister heads a caretaker government. Fayyad's appointment was never placed before, or approved by the Palestinian Legislative Council.[3]. For this reason, Ismail Haniyeh the Hamas prime minister has continued to operate in Gaza, and be recognized as by a large number of Palestinians as the legitimate caretaker prime minister. Anis al-Qasem, the Palestinian constitutional lawyer who drafted the Basic Law, is among those who publicly declared the appointment of Fayyad to be illegal.[4].

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:32:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  There is nothing in the Basic Law (0+ / 0-)

                            that says anything of the sort.  

                            There is nothing in the Basic Law that says that the Prime Minister continues as a caretaker.

      •  Wrong (0+ / 0-)

        Under the Palestinian constitution, the power was to be vested in the post of Prime Minister at the insistence of the USA. This was to relegate Arafat to a ceremonial role so that the talks could take place with Abbas who was then PM.

        Ironically in view of the current position, in October 2003 Abbas resigned as PM after he lost a power struggle with Arafat over control of the Palestinian security forces. By January 2006 he, as the new President, was insisting on retaining control of those same forces.

        Hillary Clinton - More baggage than Wal Mart

        by Lib Dem FoP on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:47:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This has nothing to do with Obama (21+ / 0-)

    Obviously, the reason he is going to meet with them is that he thinks he can help in some way with diplomacy. You can argue whether this is true or not, but Jimmy Carter's heart is in the right place.

    And again, this doesn't have anything to do with Obama.

    Cynicism is a sorry kind of wisdom- Barack Obama

    by jenontheshore on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:04:04 PM PDT

  •  Carter Is An Ex-President, Can Meet Anyone.. (19+ / 0-)

    he wants to meet.  The Israelis are firing missiles at Hamas.  Does that mean that nobody should meet with them?

    Let's leave diplomacy to the diplomats.  If Jimmy Carter thinks he should talk with Hamas, I'm okay with that.

  •  Hamas is also a humanitarian group (15+ / 1-)

    Did you investigate if he was meeting with the political or military wing of Hamas. (oops i forgot all arabs must be terrorists) Do you realize Hamas won the most recent elections in the (occupied) palestinian territory. So he would be meeting with elected officials presumeably, not terrorists. Ignorance of the arab world might be convenient for AIPAC's imperialist agenda, but please read Peace not Apartied before you hurl rocks from a glass fortress built on others' land.

    •  That's like saying (9+ / 0-)

      oh, only my right arm is used to stab people.  With my left hand I give out alms to the poor.  Therefore, I am not all bad, and I deserve to be treated as a partner in all sorts of social situations.

      •  While living in NJ, i became friends with a man (8+ / 0-)

        whose family was fed by Hamas after an Isreali incursion destroyed thier farm/livelihood. He was in no way a terrorist (an extreame capitolist actually). Sometimes the world isn't black/white.

        •  I am not sure what's your point? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Doodad, wxlr

          Ted Bundy murdered a bunch of women, but then helped police with some profiling of serial killers.  The KKK also helped a whole bunch of white Civil War widows and veterans.  So?

          •  So I guess we should wipe Israel off the map (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MiklCraw4d, RAZE, borkitekt

            they have killed a whole lot of women.  There, your logic at its eventual conclusion.

            •  Ummm... what? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Doodad

              That is the biggest pile of nonsense on this website yet.  The difference is intent.  Duuuh.

              •  of course, people only accidently kill civilians (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                RAZE

                maybe you can dig up my post on Palestinian schoolgirls being shot in class by Israeli snipers.

                Or do you tune those sorts of things out?

                Another Proud Subscriber to the Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium!

                by borkitekt on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:38:06 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You can dig up your own posts (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Doodad

                  Israel does not target civilians.  Yes, civilians die, but incidentally, not as part of a plan.

                  •  Maybe they don't (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    MiklCraw4d, Eiron, RAZE

                    target civilians, but they manage to kill a lot more of them than Hamas does.

                    "There are no happy endings in the Bush Administration". - Randall L. Tobias

                    by MadRuth on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:46:26 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That's because Hamas uses (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Doodad

                      civilians as human shields.

                      •  if only the Palestinians (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        MadRuth, RAZE

                        would just get out of Israel's way. That's the only real solution.

                        •  It seems that Hamas' desired solution (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Doodad

                          is for Israelis to get out of their way, and for Muslim Arabs to assume control over the entire country of Israel.  

                          Palestinians need not get out or get in.  They just need to stop blowing up Israeli markets, pizzerias, and Passover celebrations.

                      •  What is the military value (4+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        MadRuth, RAZE, martydd, BlueGenes

                        of the settlements and outposts, other than "Human shields"?

                        Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                        by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:05:40 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Is Sderot a settlement? (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Doodad, zemblan, wxlr

                          Is Netanya a settlement?  Is Jerusalem?  Is Tel-Aviv?

                          And again, Israeli Army does not hide behind settlers and then complain that when fired upon setttlers die.

                          •  Glad you brought that up (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            MadRuth

                            but a non-sequitur.  Odd how the government is handling the Sderot thing.  If the situation is so dire, why don't they temporarily move the population (5-7K) out of harms way while they pursue a solution to reduce the threat?  Then move 'em back when that solution reduces the threat??  Think it is propoganda value?

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:18:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I read an article... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Eiron

                            about people living in Sderot, in which the people interviewed said that they had been offered homes elsewhere, but refused to take them.  One of them said something along the lines of "If we leave, Hamas will just be encouraged to use similar tactics against other towns.  We're defending other Israelis by staying."

                            Now I wish I could remember where the article came from...

                            Why are Jews Democrats? Because the last time we followed a bush claiming to speak for God, we got lost in a desert for forty years!

                            by Elsinora on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:41:31 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Because people don't have to leave in the (0+ / 0-)

                            face of terror.  They can stand their ground.

                            What do you propose Israel do with people celebrating Passover in Netanya?  Perhaps Israel can move all Jews out of the Middle East, for reasons of "safety."

                  •  Blowing up apartment buildings (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    MiklCraw4d, RAZE

                    and targeting cars in packed neighborhoods do not lead to "incidental" deaths of civilians.  How the bombs get there, by rocket from gunship or strapped to a person doesn't really matter to the dead, the damaged, the family.

                    •  That's like saying that cold-blooded (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Doodad

                      murder and accidental death because I lost control of my car are equivalent, because it "doesn't really matter to the dead, the damaged, the family."

                      •  Not at all, both intended to kill people. (0+ / 0-)

                        There is nothing accidental about Israel (or Hamas) killing civilians.
                        This is all pointless anyway.  No one is going to talk you out of your racism. Goodbye.

                        •  Right... Support for Israel's right (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Doodad, Vanceone

                          to exist free of terrorist attacks on Passover is racist.  Right.

                          •  Happy Pesach (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            valadon, RAZE, Nailbanger

                            but sorry, I don't support shooting rockets from an Apache to kill an elderly blind dude in a wheelchair and kill a bunch of innocent civilians in the process.

                            Intent is a thin cloth to hide behind.  Indifference isn't/

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:08:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You mean the elderly blind dude (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Doodad

                            who is the spiritual leader of Hamas?  How exactly is he different from Julius Streicher and Joseph Goebbels?  I mean, those 2 also never personally killed anyone.  Just propagandized.

                          •  was, he is deceased (0+ / 0-)

                            and perhaps we might argue that his death strengthened Hamas, rather than diminished it.  RAdicalized some members, knowing that deat from the sky was a talent of the IAF.  Unless the goal was vengeance, or to stimulate a reaction that would justify the risk of loss of civilian advise.
                            MAybe some knucklehead that approved the op thought it would "shock and awe" the PAlestinians so much they'd just crumble, but that's just my americo-centrist view.  Where is Doug Feith when ya need him?

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:36:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I know he is deceased. I used "is" (0+ / 0-)

                            to refer to then-extant situation.

                            We may argue about whatever you like.  My point is that he richly deserved what he got.  Whether the decision was prudent taking into account other considerations, is a different question.  But his death is certainly justified under just deserts theory.

                          •  sick puppy (0+ / 0-)

                            Are you saying it was a "punishment", one of those extra-judicial assasinations?   A vengeance op?  Did you see spielberg's "Munich"

                            Did you feel good when the old dude in the whelchair and those kids got blown up?

                            Does that even bother you?

                            What if Mandela was treated by the same principles of justice and vengeance? If he was blown away by an US built and supplied Apache gunship.

                            Would you blame the US?

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:56:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, I feel good when Sheikh (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            wxlr

                            Yassin is blown up.  No, it does not bother me.  It bothers me no more than the execution of Julius Streicher.  The children I grieve for.  Sheikh Yassin, though, got what he deserved.

                          •  How democratic progressive of you (0+ / 0-)

                            So, under this model, if a bunch of dems get elected, Ari Fleischer, Feith or Perle could be considered as enemies of the state and killed by some extrajudicial process?

                            See the point?  Where does it end?  

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:09:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That is just obscene (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            wxlr

                            The people you named have not advocated killing other people simply because they are of different religion and ethnicity.  Comparing Sheikh Yassin to them is simply obscene.  He is comparable to Streicher, bin Laden, and other ideologues of terrorism and mass murder.

                          •  Well, I agree that Yassin was a bad dude (0+ / 0-)

                            who espoused terrorism to pursue a nationalist and ideological agenda.  He was certainly guilty of incitement to violence.

                            He may have been indicted and tried.  There were alternatives to extrajudicial assasination.  It used to be illegal in the US, too.  The Jewish tradition of "the law" is one of the illuminating and civilizing contributions to world culture.  

                            Instead he was killed by an apache gunship in an action that caused the deaths of innocents and children.    A blinde dude in a wheelchair.  Now he's a martyr  how smart is that, strategically?

                            We might disagree on tactics, but strategically we might have more agreement than difference.

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:44:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  There is nothing wrong with killing (0+ / 0-)

                            military targets by Apache gunships.  If we had a chanc to do it to OBL we should.  If we had a chance to take out Goebbels by a gunship we would have taken it (rightly).

                  •  no, they, some perhaps, target civilians (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    valadon

                    just like some of our troops do.

                    There were several girls killed, it was not a random incident.

                    You should check out some of the Winter Soldier coverage- US soldiers talking about shooting/killing people just for the hell if it. Shooting up mosques too.

                    Another Proud Subscriber to the Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium!

                    by borkitekt on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:32:21 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Please point to a reputable source (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      wxlr

                      that talks about how Israelis purposefully kill Arba school girls.

                      •  start by googling. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        valadon

                        israel killed palestinian school girl

                        You'll then see some of these:

                        Buried in the Washington Post: Israeli Military Kills 4 Palestinian Militants in Gaza Operation

                        In the southern Gaza town of Khan Yunis, a 10-year-old Palestinian girl, Ghadeer Jaber Mokheimer, died from an Israeli gunshot wound to the abdomen suffered a day earlier. She was hit while at her desk in a school run by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the agency said.

                        The military said soldiers fired in the area on Tuesday in response to Palestinian mortar rounds, but were not aware of hitting the girl. The military said it was investigating.

                        In a similar incident on Sept. 7, a 10-year-old Palestinian girl was hit by a bullet in the head at another school run by the refugee agency in Khan Yunis. She died two weeks later.

                        "That two young children have been shot and killed, sitting at their desks in U.N.R.W.A. schools in the last month is horrific by anyone's standards," Peter Hansen, the head of the refugee agency, said in a statement.

                        Also, the army on Wednesday suspended a platoon commander accused of firing shots into the body of a 13-year-old Palestinian girl who had been wounded by Israeli fire.

                        The girl, Iman al-Hams, was shot on Oct. 5 as she approached an Israeli military outpost in the southern town of Rafah. Soldiers suspected that she had a bomb in her bag, the military said, but she was on her way to school and was carrying only books, her family said.

                        The military and the soldiers at the outpost have given conflicting accounts of the shooting, and the military has ordered an investigation.

                        Some soldiers have told the Israeli media that the commander had walked up to the fallen girl and fired from his automatic rifle until the magazine was empty. The commander has disputed that account, media reports said. Palestinian doctors who saw the girl's body said she had been hit by at least 15 bullets.

                        Guardian: A schoolgirl riddled with bullets. And no one is to blame

                        The undisputed facts are these: it was broad daylight, 13-year-old Iman al-Hams was wearing her school uniform, and when she walked into the Israeli army's "forbidden zone" at the bottom of her street she was carrying her satchel. A few minutes later the short, slight child was pumped with bullets. Doctors counted at least 17 wounds and said much of her head was destroyed.
                        Beyond that there is little agreement between the army top brass and Palestinian witnesses as to how Iman came to die last week, or even among members of the military unit responsible for killing the child in Gaza's Rafah refugee camp.

                        Palestinian witnesses described the shooting as cold-blooded. They say soldiers could not have failed to see they were firing at a child, and she was killed as she already lay wounded and helpless.

                        "Some soldiers were lying on the ground and shooting very heavily toward her," said Basim Breaka, who saw the killing from her living room. "Then one of the soldiers walked to her and emptied his clip into her. For sure she died on the second or third bullet. I could see her lying on the ground, not moving. I can't imagine why that soldier wanted to shoot her after she was dead."

                        BBC: Death strains informal Gaza truce

                        A fragile truce in Gaza has been shaken after a Palestinian schoolgirl was shot dead in a playground, and Hamas fired mortars at Israeli targets.
                        Ten-year-old Nuran Deeb was hit in the head inside a United Nations-run school in Rafah, UN officials said.

                        Witnesses blamed Israeli troops, but Israel said an initial investigation suggested they were not responsible.
                        ...
                        Another girl was wounded in the hand.

                        Continuing on the same shootings, Electronic Intifada:

                        Palestinian educational institutions have been frequently attacked by IOF, and PCHR has documented dozens of such attacks, which injured dozens of schoolchildren while they were at school.� In two of such attacks in September and October 2004, 2 schoolchildren were killed by IOF in Khan Yunis refugee camp, when the two were sitting on their desks.

                        PCHR is deeply concerned for such grave breaches of international law and international humanitarian law perpetrated by IOF against Palestinian children and their right to life, security and physical integrity.� PCHR calls upon the international community, particularly the High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, to immediately intervene to stop Israeli attacks that have affected the lives, security and physical integrity of Palestinian civilians, and to provide protection for these civilians.� PCHR calls also upon international organizations, especially UNESCO and UNICEF, to immediately intervene to sop Israeli violations of the right of Palestinian children to education, which is ensured by international humanitarian law and international human rights law.

                        A few other links- Democracy Now had a reportfrom Gaza while Israel was bombing it on March 3rd.

                        I mentioned earlier the Winter Soldier Hearings, Democracy Now has video of this, which the soldiers have their own videos and images they took from Iraq.

                        I've seen other information, I'll try to dig that up. I still can't figure out how to find my old post.

                        Another Proud Subscriber to the Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium!

                        by borkitekt on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:28:00 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  found it... (0+ / 0-)

                        Killing of Palestinian girl shatters family

                        On the afternoon of 31 January 2005, Israeli sniper fire ripped through her face as she stood in her school's courtyard, lining up for afternoon assembly.

                        The last thing Nuran's mother remembers of her daughter before she left for school that morning was hearing her say her morning prayers, during which she recited a verse about God having created death - and life - as a test for mankind.

                        In retrospect, Nuran's mother believes it was a premonition of what was to come.

                        "Then she left for school. She was a completely selfless child.  She was thinking of her sisters till the last second. She came back after she had left the house, and said: 'Mommy, it's cold - please put some sweaters on my sisters before they leave'," her mother said.

                        "What more can I say except that she was a breath of fresh air in these hard times? Her name was Nur [light] and that's exactly what she was."

                        Her death has many here questioning Israel's commitment to a ceasefire amid a one-sided truce and virtual period of calm.  

                        "We extended an olive branch to them and instead of reciprocating they cut our hand off," Nuran's mother cried, sitting in an unpainted cement-block bedroom with nothing but thin foam mattresses on the ground.

                        "What did she ever do to deserve such a fate? Or her sister, who saw Nuran die in front of her? Every night she wails out in her sleep: 'Bring me my sister, bring me my sister'".

                        Fifth child killed

                        Nuran was the fifth Palestinian child to be shot dead or maimed by Israeli occupation forces while on the premises of their UN-flagged schools in the past two years. She was also one of 172 children killed in Gaza this year alone - and one of 644 killed in Gaza since the start of al-Aqsa Intifada in September 2000.

                        Two girls were shot dead in separate incidents in Rafah and Khan Yunus last year while sitting at their desks, and a little girl was permanently blinded in March 2003.

                        Palestinian girl shot while at UN school in Gaza Strip dies of injuries

                        13 October 2004 – Just two months shy of her 10th birthday, Ghadeer Jaber Mokheimer died today of injuries sustained when, sitting in a United Nations school, she was hit by gunfire from an Israeli military position in the Gaza Strip, the UN relief agency helping Palestinians reported.


                        The fifth grade pupil, shot yesterday at the school in the refugee camp at Khan Younis, is the second youngster in recent weeks to die after being hit by gunfire while attending a UN-run school in Gaza. Ten-year-old Raghda Adnan Al-Assar died on 22 September, two weeks after being struck unconscious by a bullet to the head.

                        Peter Hansen, Commissioner-General of the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), decried the deaths, calling them "horrific by anyone's standards." He also pointed out that beyond the campuses of educational facilities, "the pace of child deaths in Gaza has been accelerating terribly in recent weeks."

                        Almost every day, Mr. Hansen said, "The most basic of the rights of the child - to life - is now being violated."

                        UNRWA has repeatedly called on the Israeli military to stop firing at its schools. There have now been four such incidents in less than two years, which the Agency said was a sign of the Israeli army's indiscriminate and dangerous military tactics in civilian areas.

                        UNRWA is also concerned that parents are growing increasingly fearful about sending their children to school in Gaza because of the level of violence they experience both during their journeys and once they arrive.

                        10-Year-Old Palestinian School Girl Abir Amarin Dies Two Days After Being Shot by Israeli Occupation Terrorist Soldiers

                        10-year-old Abir Aramin dies two days after shooting


                        PNN, (Jerusalem) Maisa Abu Ghazaleh Thursday, 18 January 2007

                        Abir was carrying a book, a notebook and some pens in her 10 year old hands.

                        She has yet to participate in a demonstration or a march protesting occupation, but that did not stop Israeli soldiers from hitting her.

                        Abir Aramin was only injured at first by the gas bomb that was shot at the back of her head.

                        She had just stepped out of the Anata School for Girls after taking a test when the gas canister hit her and she was knocked to the ground.

                        ...

                        Abir's father works for the Jerusalem Society for Democracy and Dialogue and said, “I work in peace organizations and want to appeal to the entire work that what we want is a just and honorable peace. That is what is not wanted by the Israeli leadership.”

                        Bassam Aramin had some words for the Israeli government.

                        “The victims among the Palestinian people are no less important than Israeli people. We are all human beings.”

                        He called on Israeli mothers to not be “tools of the occupation by sending their children to the battlefield without reason.”

                        Aramin explained, “My daughter is a victim of a systematic oppressive policy and the Israelis must end the occupation and say yes to peace.”

                        The Director of the Anata School for Girls said Wednesday that she regrets what happened to Abir Aramin.

                        “What happened yesterday is a deliberate and provocative exercise practiced by border guards since the beginning of exams at the end of the first quarter at students in all of the Anata Secondary schools.”

                        She added, “The border guards are present daily at the doors of the Anata School for Boys and that for girls, and around Saladin Street where they know the kids must pass to reach buses or to walk home. They provoke the students by throwing grenades at them.”


                        The school director appealed for international protection for Palestinian school students.

                        Two children shot inside UNRWA school

                        This Saturday afternoon two schoolchildren were shot and wounded inside UNRWA's Beit Lahia Elementary School in the northern Gaza Strip.

                        At 15:10 hrs, while sitting at his desk in a first grade classroom, Ahmed Isam Abdel-Aziz, seven years old, was struck by a bullet to the head. The bullet, which first bounced off a window ledge, penetrated 3-5 millimeters into Ahmed's skull.

                        Five minutes later, Rewa Khalid Al-Mabhouh, 12 years old, was shot in the leg. She had just entered the school's eastern corridor to pick up her younger brother, since evacuation of the school was underway.

                        Both bullets entered the school from the north, and Israeli tanks were seen stationed on a hill, 1.5 kilometers north of the school.

                        Another Proud Subscriber to the Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium!

                        by borkitekt on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:15:06 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I never disputed that some schoolchildren die (0+ / 0-)

                          I disputed that it was intentional.

                          •  So, you think that pointing a gun (0+ / 0-)

                            at a school, through a window, at a child, killing her might not be intent enough on several occasions?

                            Maybe they were aiming at homework, or the apple on the teachers desk?

                            If you saw the winter soldier link, some of the soldiers who admit to killing people who pose no threat will not go to jail, the people they murdered nonetheless gone, are most likely mourned by family members.

                            Another Proud Subscriber to the Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium!

                            by borkitekt on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 09:18:41 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  As I read the article (0+ / 0-)

                            the bullet was a stray one, that ricocheted off the windowpane.  There is no evidence whatsoever that even remotely suggests that the schoolgirl or the school were intended target.

          •  Sorry, i forget Zionists only understand world in (4+ / 2-)
            Recommended by:
            Eiron, RAZE, borkitekt, martydd
            Hidden by:
            Drgrishka1, dfb1968

            Bushian "good guys" vs "bad guys". Is the man running a Hamas sponcered kids footbal league a terrorist? I know what Bush and Likkud would say.

            •  A person who is running a football league (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Doodad

              is not necessarily a terrorist.  Hamas officials who funnel money into various projects are.

              •  Do you consider Bush a terrorist? (1+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                valadon
                Hidden by:
                Drgrishka1

                Based on this definition, it would seem you do:

                Hamas officials who funnel money into various projects are.

                So where does that leave all the people who voted for Bush? Are they fair targets for those who oppose his "terrorism"? It seems some people think so, if the alleged accounts for who was behind the terrorist acts of 9/11.

                •  HR for conspiracy theories on 9/11 (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  wxlr
                  •  No, I am not proposing any conspiracy theories. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    valadon

                    I write "alleged accounts" because I do not believe a full accounting of what happened and who was responsible is truly known at this time. The 9/11 Commission report has received wide criticism, and this includes criticism from those who are not wearing tinfoil hats or suggesting the planes didn't topple the Towers or whatever it is that the conspirators claim.

                    So you misunderstood, or misinterpreted, or let your bias color what you think you read. I urge you to read closer and consider whether your first interpretation may not be correct. If so, you may be rewarded with discovering what people really are communicating.

                  •  Blatant Hide Rate Abuse (0+ / 0-)

                    Try re-reading the rules.

                    Beltway Wisdom is an Oxymoron.

                    by kefauver on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:56:03 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  and now we have to watch out for Switzerland, (0+ / 0-)

              those Nazis in sheeps clothing!

              GENEVA (EJP)---Switzerland has rejected accusations on Tuesday by the New York-based Anti-Defamation League (ADL) that it could be financing terrorism after a Swiss company signed a 30 billion dollar deal to buy natural gas from Iran.

              The Swiss Foreign Ministry reiterated that the purchase did not violate UN Security Council resolutions imposing sanctions on Iran over its nuclear programme or U.S. domestic law.

              US domestic law?

              The American Jewish group, which is fighting anti-Semitism (appearantly with islamaphobic racism) in the world, has taken out a full-page advertisement which appeared on Tuesday in major Swiss and international newspapers under the banner "Guess who is the world's newest financier of terrorism? SWITZERLAND".

              bold mine

              ...


              ... said the deal's "likely result" was pro-Iranian Hamas and Hezbollah  "may get tens of thousands of additional missiles"

              ...

              "Terrorist cells in Europe, the Middle East and around the globe will have access to new weapons and support," it said. "When you finance a terrorist state, you finance terrorism.

              ...

              The Swiss foreign ministry also pointed out that there are at least 10 other countries with major energy deals with Iran, including Japan, France and Italy.

              ...

              Even Calmy-Rey's visit itself was keenly watched, with Swiss politicians and observers criticising her for wearing a headscarf in Iran.

               

              "Just like an oppressed woman!" charged the headline of the tabloid Le Matin, which splashed a picture of Calmy-Rey with the scarf on its front page.

              Another Proud Subscriber to the Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium!

              by borkitekt on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:35:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, not like Switzerland (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Doodad, jhecht

                ever benifitted from the murder of Jews or anything.

                •  oh, I'd imagine alot of people did. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Eiron

                  There doesn't seem to be much hurry to stop anything happening in Darfur, Iraq or Afghanistan.

                  Besides, that's how the Bush family made its fortune- Prescott Bush handled money from an industrialist under Nazi Germany connected to forced labor. Iirc, he was investigated and had some of his money confiscated.

                  I also wonder how much IBM profited too? If the research is true, they provided the technology to enable the Holocaust happen.

                  IBM and the Holocaust is the stunning story of IBM's strategic alliance with Nazi Germany -- beginning in 1933 in the first weeks that Hitler came to power and continuing well into World War II. As the Third Reich embarked upon its plan of conquest and genocide, IBM and its subsidiaries helped create enabling technologies, step-by-step, from the identification and cataloging programs of the 1930s to the selections of the 1940s.
                  Only after Jews were identified -- a massive and complex task that Hitler wanted done immediately -- could they be targeted for efficient asset confiscation, ghettoization, deportation, enslaved labor, and, ultimately, annihilation. It was a cross-tabulation and organizational challenge so monumental, it called for a computer. Of course, in the 1930s no computer existed

                  .

                  Another Proud Subscriber to the Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium!

                  by borkitekt on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:04:28 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Ward Churchills argument (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    RAZE, borkitekt

                    derivitive of Arendt, that the clerks and administrators who enable exploitation and killing of "the other" are equally guilty as those who pull triggers.  

                    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                    by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:17:18 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  and it scares me to no end that it seems (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      RAZE

                      that there are more wars to come.

                      I saw a small exhibition at the Architecture Museum Tuesday that dealt with, I think, a Swedish organization called Architecture Without Borders, who had photographs of a Palestinian locale- some crowded housing with a thin dark street in-between. Above this place on an elevated thickly walled fortification were some new Israeli settlers who would throw rocks at the Palestinians below. They then erected a metal grating above the street, then the Israelis would throw needles or urine.

                      Another Proud Subscriber to the Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium!

                      by borkitekt on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:24:31 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

      •  True (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        someone else, Overseas, RAZE, BlueGenes

        But if someone shot a rocket at my family and your one arm stabbed them whilst the other gave me a sammich, I'd be inclined to hope you'd stick around.

        This isn't about what we think about Hamas - it's about the (shudder) hearts and minds of the Palestinians.

      •  Sigh (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Eiron, martydd, BlueGenes

        Because talking to Sinn Fein did nothing to promote peace in Ireland...

        Laugh while you can, monkey boy! -- E. Lizardo

        by Anton Sirius on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:42:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Oh please (10+ / 0-)

      Calling Hamas a humanitarian group is like calling McDonald's a health food restaurant because they put lettuce on a Big Mac.

      Incoming...it's a flying bookbag

      by jhecht on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:17:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If your olive grove was bulldozed, and Hamas (7+ / 0-)

        helped feed your family you would view it diffrently. That shit happens every day.

        •  The Mafia does the same thing (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Drgrishka1, DemocraticLuntz, wxlr

          No one would call them a humanitarian group. Stop being so naive.

          Incoming...it's a flying bookbag

          by jhecht on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:25:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You're the naive one. the IRA won doing just (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            valadon, RAZE

            the same way.  Looking out for the lower class people in their hood.  It'll work in Palestine as well, if it takes them a thousand years, they'll pay the price. Talking to them is the only way.

            A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem.- Albert Einstein

            by bldr on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:37:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The IRA won by (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Drgrishka1, jhecht, zemblan, wxlr

              Abandoning violence and moderating -- now Ireland is a huge success story, IT industry bastion and all kinds of stuff.

              Had the IRA insisted on no compromise from their position ever, as they did for a long time and as Hamas is currently doing?  Diff story.

              All that said, Jimmy's the perfect person to send to meet them, he can tell them "shape the fuck up" without giving them undue credit or being in a position to give real concessions.

              •  If they hadn't used mindless violence, the IRA (0+ / 0-)

                wouldn't have had a position of strength to negociate from. The UK would never had dealt with the issue if cowardly terroristic tactics hadn't forced them to. Sad but true.

                •  Well, let's see if Hamas can replicate (0+ / 0-)

                  that tactic.  Want to wager on that one?

                  •  Yes, I'll wager (0+ / 0-)

                    Hamas is taking the play book that worked for the IRA, that worked for the original Jewish Freedom fighters, that worked for the original Federal states of Amaerica, and every successful populace that has thrown off an occupier.  Wish Bush had taken a history class  in Yale.  So Yeah I'll take that wager and in 20 years or less you're going to have to come to Chicago & buy  my beer. Guinness and lots of it.  

                    A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem.- Albert Einstein

                    by bldr on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:09:28 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well, I live in Chicago so I wont (0+ / 0-)

                      have to travel far.  But define victory.  If your definition is that in 20 years Israel will simply disengage, pull its troops out and finish building a wall to separate itself, then yes, that's likely.  But if you think Israel will conclude any sort of agreement with Hamas while Hamas clings to its annihilationist views, then you will be buying me vodka.

              •  The IRA won by blowing bombs off in the (0+ / 0-)

                Heart of the London financial markets.  Then all of a sudden London got ready to talk after the banks threatened to move to New York.  That's how they won.

                A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem.- Albert Einstein

                by bldr on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:51:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  A couple of mortars (0+ / 0-)

                  into Downing street seemed to be a trigger event, but correlation isn't causation

                  Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                  by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:18:22 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I Remember that one. Amazing feat of engineering (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Eiron

                    Parking the van in to a predetermined spot, and the an automatic firing mortar, sendig up those shells.  I still remember the video of that van being torn asunder. They figured out they were off by less than one mil.  An amazing engineering feat. Glad to see those talks worked out in the end.

                    A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem.- Albert Einstein

                    by bldr on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:27:54 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Also the 9 mortars into Heathrow (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Eiron

                    Airport, 4 mortars then another 5, 2 days later.  All without war heads, just to prove a point.  They ended up threatening the heart of the financial system of London. That got the seats at the table filled rigth quick.

                    A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem.- Albert Einstein

                    by bldr on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:12:47 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  As an Irish Catholic, i supported the IRA, even (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              elmo, Eiron, bldr

              though their methods were brutal. Those brutalities are finally producing results. OOps i forgot it was HRC's doing. I support those burdened with occupation everywhere, wheather they are Basque, Kurd, Palestinian, or Tibetan, or....

              •  Most scholars and counter-insurgency experts (0+ / 0-)

                (Kagans excepted) recognize the difference between nationalistic inspired groups living under oppressive conditions (Viva the American Revolution) and transnational, usually idealogical threats.

                Dealing with the former is formulaic, really very simple, co-opt the political wing and gain their cooperation to reduce the militant wing

                Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:21:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  WHAT??? You supported the IRA? OMG (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Drgrishka1, Doodad, wxlr

                This was uprated?

                You supported this?

                Date Location Death/injuries
                2 December 1980 Princess Louise Regiment Territorial Army Centre, Hammersmith Road, London W6 Device exploded injuring five people
                10 October 1981 Ebury Bridge Road, London SW1 Device exploded killing two people and injuring 39
                17 October 1981 London SE21 One person injured in an explosion
                26 October 1981 Wimpy Bar, Oxford Street, London W1 One person killed in an explosion
                23 November 1981 Royal Artillery HQ, Government House, Woolwich New Road, London SE18 Device exploded injuring two people
                20 July 1982 South Carriage Road, Hyde Park, London W1 Device exploded killing four people and injuring 28
                Regents Park, London NW1 Device exploded killing seven people and injuring 31
                10 December 1983 Royal Artillery Barracks, Repository Road, London SE18 Device exploded injuring three people
                17 December 1983 Outside Harrods, Knightsbridge, London SW3 Six people were killed and 91 injured in an explosion
                25 December 1983 Orchard Street, London W1 Device exploded injuring two people
                12 October 1984 Grand Hotel, Brighton, Sussex Device exploded during the Conservative Party Conference killing five people and injuring 30 others
                15/16 August 1987 Various Postal devices were sent to six senior civil servants. No injuries
                1 August 1988 Inglis Barracks, London SW7 Device exploded killing one person and injuring eight others
                20 February 1989 Ternhill Barracks, Shropshire One person injured in an explosion
                22 September 1989 Royal Marines School of Music, North Barracks, Deal, Kent Device exploded killing 11 and injuring 21 others
                15 November 1989 Kensington Device discovered and defused. No injuries
                18 November 1989 Married Quarters, Colchester Device attached to car exploded injuring two people
                16 January 1990 Army HQ, SE District, Aldershot Postal device discovered and defused--No injuries
                20 February 1990 Combined Services Recruitment Centre, Rutland Street, Leicester Device attached to a vehicle exploded nearby injuring two people
                25 February 1990 Army Recruiting Office, New Road, Halifax Device exploded. No injuries
                14 May 1990 Service Education Centre, Eltham, S London SE9 Device exploded injuring five people
                16 May 1990 Army Recruiting Centre, Wembley, Middlesex Device exploded killing one person and injuring four others
                1 June 1990 Lichfield Railway Station, Staffordshire One person was killed and two others injured in a shooting incident
                9 June 1990 Honourable Artillery HQ, City Road, London EC1 19 people were injured in an explosion
                12 June 1990 Hampshire Device discovered and defused. No injuries
                21 June 1990 RAF Stanmore Park, Uxbridge Device exploded. No injuries
                25 June 1990 Carlton Club, St. James, London SW1 Bomb exploded injuring 20 people
                6 July 1990 The Strand, London WC2 Small device exploded in a litter bin. No injuries
                20 July 1990 Stock Exchange, London EC1 Device exploded--no injuries
                30 July 1990 Pevensey Ian Gow MP was killed when a device exploded under his car
                6 August 1990 London NW8 Device discovered and defused at the former home of Lord Armstrong. No injuries
                13 August 1990 Didcot Device discovered and defused at the home of Sir Anthony Farrar-Hockley. No injuries
                10 September 1990 Army and Navy Recruiting Office, Derby Bomb exploded--no injuries
                17 September 1990 Army Information Centre, Finchley, London Army colour sergeant shot and injured as he sat in a car outside the office
                18 September 1990 Staffordshire Air Chief Marshall Sir Peter Terry was shot and injured at his home. His wife suffered minor injuries
                27 September 1990 Royal Overseas League, Park Place, London WC1 Device discovered and defused. No injuries
                24 January 1991 Territorial Army Firing Range, Cannock Chase, Staffordshire Small explosion and a shot was fired. No injuries
                7 February 1991 Downing Street, London SW1 Three mortar bombs fired. One minor injury
                18 February 1991 Paddington Station, London W2 Device exploded. No injuries
                Victoria Station, London SW1 Device exploded. One man killed and 38 people injured
                25 February 1991 Napsbury Lane, St. Albans Device exploded on a railway line. No injuries
                3 April 1991 Preston Railway Station, Preston, Lancashire A number of incendiary devices were found on a platform. No injuries
                5 April 1991 Arndale Shopping Centre, Manchester A number of devices were discovered in shops, some of which caused fires. No injuries
                28 June 1991 Beck Theatre, Hayes, Middlesex Device discovered and defused outside the theatre. No injuries
                30 June 1991 Royal Navy and RAF Recruiting Office, Fishergate Centre, Preston Device discovered. Detonated in controlled explosion. No injuries
                5 August 1991 Cambridge Public House, Charing Cross Road, London Fire caused by incendiary devices. No injuries
                29 August 1991 London Underground Depot, Hammersmith W6 Three incendiary devices discovered under a seat. No injuries
                31 August 1991 Bargain Bookshop, Charing Cross Road, London WC2 Incendiary device discovered. No injuries
                15 November 1991 Old Barclays Bank, St. Peters Street, St. Albans, Hertfordshire Device exploded killing two members of the Provisional IRA. A member of the public was injured
                1 December 1991 The Discount Furniture Store Habitat, The World of Leather, The Reject Shop, Tottenham Court Road A number of incendiary devices ignited causing damage to property but no injuries
                2 December 1991 Littlewoods, Oxford Street, London W1 Incendiary device ignited. No injuries
                7-8 December 1991 Various locations in Blackpool A number of incendiary devices were discovered in locations around Blackpool. No injuries
                8 December 1991 Arndale Centre, Manchester Seven incendiary devices ignited. No injuries
                14 December 1991 Brent Cross Shopping Centre Four devices found in shops. No injuries
                15 December 1991 Sainsbury Wing, National Gallery, London WC2 An incendiary device partially ignited. No injuries
                16 December 1991 Railway line near Clapham Junction Bomb exploded on the railway line. No injuries
                23 December 1991 Ilford Underground Depot Incendiary device ignited. No injuries
                Neasden Underground Deport Incendiary devices ignited. No injuries
                Train at Harrow on the Hill Incendiary devices ignited. No injuries
                10 January 1992 Whitehall Place, London SW1 Small device exploded. No injuries
                17 January 1992 Marquis of Granby Public House, Shaftesbury Avenue, London W1 Two incendiary devices discovered. No injuries
                30 January 1992 Elephant and Castle Underground Depot, London SE17 Incendiary device found. No injuries
                3 February 1992 Neasden Underground Depot Incendiary device found under seat. No injuries
                7 February 1992 London Underground Sidings between Barking and Upney Stations Incendiary device ignited. No injuries
                11 February 1992 Telephone box, Parliamentary Street, London SW1 (outside the Treasury) Small device discovered and made safe. No injuries
                28 February 1992 London Bridge Railway Station, London SE1 Device exploded injuring 29 people
                29 February 1992 Crown Prosecution Service, London EC4 Device exploded injuring two people
                1 March 1992 White Hart Lane BR Station Tottenham, London N17 Small device discovered and defused
                10 March 1992 Near Wandsworth Common Railway Station, London SW18 Small device exploded beside railway line. No injuries
                6 April 1992 Bridle Lane, near Piccadilly Circus, London W1 Device exploded outside a building housing various offices
                10 April 1992 St. Mary Axe, City of London EC3 Large improvised explosive device exploded killing three people and injuring 91. Many properties damaged
                11 April 1992 Staples Corner, Junction of M1 and North Circular Road Large improvised explosive device exploded causing serious damage to roads and nearby buildings
                9-10 May 1992 Metro Centre, Gateshead A number of incendiary devices ignited causing minimal damage
                7 June 1992 Royal Festival Hall, London SE1 Device exploded causing blast damage. No injuries
                8 June 1992 A64 Leeds-York near Tadcaster, North Yorkshire Constable Goodman was shot and killed and a PC seriously injured by two gunmen
                10 June 1992 Wilcox Place, Victoria Street Small device exploded in a litter bin near the Army and Navy Dept. Store. No injuries
                15 June 1992 St. Albans Street, near Piccadilly Circus Device exploded in a cab, which had been hijacked. No injuries
                25 June 1992 Coleman Street, City of London EC2 Device exploded hidden in a brief case under a car. Limited damage. One police officer suffered shock
                30-31 July 1992 Milton Keynes (Shops, Library) Two incendiary devices discovered--only minimal damage caused
                25 August 1992 Shropshire Regimental Museum and two furniture shops, Shrewsbury A small device exploded at the museum and incendiary devices ignited in the shops. Some damage caused in the museum
                6 September 1992 London Hilton Hotel, Park Lane, London W1 Small device exploded in the gents' toilets in the foyer of the hotel. Little damage and no casualties
                17 September 1992 Madame Tussaud's, Marylebone Road, London NW1 Two incendiary devices caused a small fire
                The Planetarium, Marylebone Road, London NW1 A small device exploded causing minor damage
                Imperial War Museum, Lambeth Road, London SE1 Two incendiary devices discovered and extinguished. Minor damage caused
                7 October 1992 Junction of The Haymarket and Panton Street, Piccadilly SW1 Small device exploded in a litter bin. Five people suffered minor injuries. Minimal damage
                Near Centre Point, Flitcroft Street, London WC2 Small device exploded behind a BT junction box. Slight damage and no casualties
                8 October 1992 Tooley Street, London SE1 Device exploded under a car causing damage to two other cars. One person slightly injured
                Melcombe Street, London NW1 Small device exploded under a car, causing little damage and no injuries
                9 October 1992 Royal British Legion, Nursery Road, Southgate N14 Small device exploded under a car in the car park. No injuries
                Car Park, Arnos Grove Underground Station Small device exploded under a car. No injuries
                10 October 1992 Paddington Green Police Station, Harrow Road, Paddington W2 Device exploded in a phone box outside the police station. One person injured
                12 October 1992 Sussex Arms Public House, Long Acre, Convent Garden A device exploded in the gents' toilets killing one person (who died the following day as a result of injuries) and injuring four others
                19 October 1992 Novotel Hotel, Shortlands, Hammersmith W6 Small device exploded under the wheel arch of a coach parked outside the Hotel. No casualties
                Oxenden Street, London SW1 Device exploded under a car. Two people treated for shock
                21 October 1992 Railway Line, Nr Silver Street Station Edmonton Device exploded on the track as a train was passing, causing little damage. Two people were treated for minor injuries
                21 October 1992 (Cont.) Princess Louise Territorial Army Centre, Hammersmith Road W6 Device, believed to have been hung on railings, exploded. Three people suffered minor injuries
                Railway Line, Nr Harrow Road (junction with Furness Road) NW10 Device exploded causing slight damage to the track, but no casualties.
                22 October 1992 Sewage Pipe, Wick Lane E3 Small device exploded causing damage to a sewage pipe. No casualties
                25 October 1992 London SW1 Device exploded in a doorway causing some damage to the building and to nearby cars. No casualties
                30 October 1992 Whitehall, London SW1 (nr Downing Street) Small device exploded in a hijacked minicab outside Cabinet Office. No one was injured
                14 November 1992 Stoke Newington Road, London N16 Van discovered containing a very large improvised explosive device. One policeman was shot and injured confronting two men
                15 November 1992 Canada Tower, Canary Wharf Large improvised explosive device is made safe after security guards challenged two men
                16 November 1992 Collingwood Street, Bethnal Green E1 Device in van made safe
                1 December 1992 Stephens Street/Tottenham Court Road Large improvised explosive device in van made safe
                3 December 1992 Deansgate and Cateaton Street, Manchester Two small devices exploded under bushes causing damage to properties and minor injury to 64 people
                9 December 1992 Woodside Park Underground Station, London N12 HME device partially detonated in a van in car park. No injuries
                10 December 1992 Wood Green Shopping Centre, London N22 Two devices exploded in litter bins outside shops. Eleven people were slightly injured
                16 December 1992 John Lewis Department Store Oxford Street W1 Small device exploded in the gents' toilets on the third floor. One person was treated for shock
                Cavendish Square W1 Small device exploded in a litter bin. Three people were slightly injured
                22 December 1992 Hampstead Tube Station Small device exploded on emergency staircase
                6 January 1993 Reject Shop, Plaza Shopping Centre, London W1 Incendiary device ignited causing minor damage
                Dillons' Bookshop, Northumberland Avenue WC2 Very small device exploded causing little damage
                C and A, Oxford Street W1 Incendiary device ignited. Very little damage
                Video Shop, 60 Oxford Street W1 Incendiary device ignited. Minor damage
                7 January 1993 Dillon's Bookshop, Northumberland Avenue W1 Unignited incendiary device found
                14 January 1993 Top Shop, Oxford Circus W1 Unignited incendiary device found
                28 January 1993 Harrods, Brompton Road SW1 Small device exploded in a litter bin. Two people slightly injured and 30 ft of shop front damaged
                3 February 1993 Train at Kent House Station, Kent Small device exploded on train stopped and evacuated following warnings. No casualties
                South Kensington Tube Station, London SW7 Device exploded in underground passage-way following warning and evacuation. No casualties
                10 February 1993 London SW1 Small device exploded in doorway of block of flats. Minor damage. No injuries.
                26 February 1993 Warrington, Cheshire Policeman shot and injured after stopping a van; a car hijacked; and three devices exploded (and unignited incendiary made safe) at gasworks causing extensive damage and no injuries.
                27 February 1993 Camden High Street NW1 Small device exploded in litter bin. 18 people injured--two seriously
                20 March 1993 Bridge Street, Warrington, Cheshire Two small devices exploded in litter bins in shopping area. Two children killed and 54 people injured, four extremely seriously
                7 April 1993 Argyle Square, London WC1 Small device exploded in builders skip. Minor damage. No injuries
                23 April 1993 Esso Oil Refinery, North Shields Small device exploded next to pipe carrying heavy oil. No injuries. Some damage
                24 April 1993 Bishopsgate, London EC2 Large improvised explosive device exploded killing one person and injuring 44 more. Extensive damage to properties
                Manor House Tube Station, London N22 Small device exploded in hijacked minicab. No injuries
                Judd Street, St. Pancras, London WC1 Small device exploded in hijacked minicab. No injuries
                9 May 1993 Galleries Shopping Centre, Bristol Two incendiaries ignited, in the Reject Shop and Waterstone Bookshop. No injuries
                12 May 1993 Reject Shop, Cornmarket, Oxford Incendiary device malfunctioned. No injuries
                9 June 1993 Gas Installation, Gateshead, Tyne and Wear Small explosive device detonated causing fire and damage to gas storage tank. No injuries
                Esso Oil Refinery, North Shields Two small explosive devices detonated on pipes leading to storage tanks. Little damage, no injuries
                13 August 1993 Locations in Bournemouth Six incendiary devices in retail outlets in Bournemouth. Some ignited causing damage. Two small devices on the pier. One exploded. No injuries
                28 August 1993 Wormwood Street, London (City) EC2 Small device discovered containing semtex. Disrupted by controlled explosion. No damage. No injuries
                16 September 1993 Curzon Phoenix Cinema, Charing Cross Road WC2 Two small incendiary devices found. Had malfunctioned, no damage, no injuries
                MGM Cinema, Shaftsbury Avenue WC2 One small incendiary device found. Had malfunctioned, no damage, no injuries
                2 October 1993 Finchley Road, London NW8 Three devices exploded. Five people injured some localised damage. One device found and made safe
                4 October 1993 Tottenham Lane, London N8 Two devices exploded. No injuries. Some localised damage
                Archway Road, London N19 Two devices exploded. No injuries. Some localised damage
                4 October 1993 (Cont.) Highgate High Street, London N6 One device exploded. No injuries, some localised damage. A second device discovered and made safe
                8 October 1993 Junction of Coles Green Road and Humber Road near the North Circular Road junction of Staples Corner NW2 One device exploded. No injuries, some localised damage
                Outside the Black Lion Public House at 295 West End Lane NW6 One device exploded. No injuries, some localised damage
                23 October 1993 Wooton Underwood, Brill, Buckinghamshire Device exploded, damaging footbridge over railway
                24 October 1993 Reading Station One device in toilets made safe. Another device later exploded by the tracks; no injuries and little damage
                24 October 1993 Basingstoke Station One device in toilets made safe
                29 October 1993 Edwardes Square W8 Small device exploded beside a car. Extensive damage to car, no injuries
                14 December 1993 Railway line near Woking station, Surrey Small device exploded on railway line. Slight damage to line. No injuries
                16 December 1993 Railway line, near Brookwood and Farnborough stations, Surrey Two devices discovered. Disrupted by controlled explosion
                20 December 1993 Sorting Office, London EC1 Postal device discovered. Made safe. No damage. No injuries
                Travellers Tavern, Elizabeth Street, Victoria, London SW1 6 devices discovered in a holdall. At least one ignited. No injuries, minor damage
                Mount Pleasant Sorting Office, London EC1 Package ignited. No injuries, minor damage
                Northfields Tube Station, London W13 Small device ignited in a litter bin. No significant damage and no injuries
                27 January 1994 C and A, Oxford Street W1 Incendiary device ignited; little damage
                Mothercare, Oxford Street W1 Incendiary device ignited; little damage
                Silverdale Travel Goods, Oxford Street W1 Incendiary device ignited; some damage
                28 January 1994 C and A, Oxford Street W1 Incendiary device ignited; little damage
                Mothercare, Oxford Street W1 Incendiary device made safe
                29 January 1994 Nightingales, Oxford Street W1 One incendiary device ignited and another made safe; little damage
                18 February 1994 Record shop, 157 Charing Cross Road WC2 Incendiary device discovered and made safe
                19 February 1994 Record Shop, 157 Charing Cross Road WC2 Very small high explosive device exploded; minor damage
                Top Shop, Oxford Circus W1 Two incendiary devices ignited; little damage
                Hennes Oxford Circus W1 Incendiary device ignited; little damage
                19 February 1994 Newsagents, Great Cumberland Place W1 Incendiary device ignited destroying shop
                Burtons, New Oxford Street WC1 Incendiary device ignited; little damage. A further device was discovered
                Burtons, Regent Street W1 Incendiary device ignited and very small high explosive device detonated; little damage
                Liberty's, Regent Street W1 Incendiary device ignited; little damage
                Mr. Byrite, Oxford Circus W1 Incendiary device made safe
                22 February 1994 Mr. Handy, Edgware Road W2 Incendiary device made safe
                9 March 1994 Heathrow Airport, London 4 mortars launched from a car parked at the Excelsior Hotel, landing on or near the northern runway. None exploded and there was no damage
                11 March 1994 Heathrow Airport, London 4 mortars launched from waste ground, landing on an aircraft parking area near Terminal Four. None exploded and there was no damage
                13 March 1994 Heathrow Airport, London 5 mortars launched from waste ground, landing in the vicinity of Terminal Four. None exploded and there was no damage
                15 March 1994 Railway line near Sevenoaks, Kent IED discovered. Believed to be left over from the series of attacks in December but had failed to detonate
                21 March 1994 Railway line Orpington, Kent Timer of IED discovered. Believed to be left over from series of attacks in December but had failed to detonate
                6 June 1994 Sevenoaks railway station, Kent Device made safe in controlled explosion
                10 June 1994 Liberty's Oxford Street, London W1 Two incendiary devices discovered and made safe
                11 June 1994 Mr. Byrite's, Oxford Street, London W1 Incendiary device ignited causing little damage. A further device had failed to detonate
                13 June 1994 Railway line, one mile from Stevenage station Device exploded on embankment by railway line. Little damage
                12 July 1994 Heysham port, Lancashire Lorry found to contain approximately two tonnes of improvised explosive device
                21 July 1994 Reading railway station Stolen suitcase found to contain two incendiary devices along with component parts for six high explosive devices
                13 August 1994 Shopping centre, Bognor Regis Explosive device, left in a bicycle, detonated damaging 15 shops but causing no injuries
                Brighton pier, Sussex Explosive device found in bicycle. Made safe by controlled explosion
                22 August 1994 Regent Street W1 High explosive device found in litter bin outside Laura Ashley shop. Device defused--no injuries and no damage
                9 February 1996 South Quay, Canary Wharf, London Two people killed and some 40 injured in an explosion
                15 February 1996 Junction of Charing Cross Road and Litchfield Street, London WC2 High explosive device in telephone kiosk disrupted by controlled explosion
                18 February 1996 Wellington Street, London WC2 Improvised high explosive device detonated prematurely on a bus, killing the terrorist transporting the device and injuring eight other people

                How did I live without him?

                by Pumpkinlove on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:28:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Can't believe someone like that is allowed to (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  wxlr

                  post here. Does dKos support terrorism now?

                  A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.

                  by Doodad on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:36:23 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  you forgot this one (0+ / 0-)

                  On the morning of August 27th 1979 Lord Mountbatten?s motor boat was blown to pieces by the IRA bomb, killing him and three others. And the IRA had not finished their operations in the area on that day: A second attack, by the same IRA group, would kill 18 British soldiers at Warren Point, just hours later.

                  Lord Mountbatten

                  A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem.- Albert Einstein

                  by bldr on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:56:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  My apologies.. it was an incomplete list (0+ / 0-)

                    How did I live without him?

                    by Pumpkinlove on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:26:01 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It was a good list, pumpkinlove (0+ / 0-)

                      That particular "operation" of the IRA, I think changed  the tone of the battles on both sides and should be recognized because of it.  
                      I'm always amazed at how few actually died over the course of those "Troubles" and yes it would matter if it was one of your family that died violently. It showed that they had tight "leadership" and were operationally and tactically focused.  

                      I think that if the Hamas military wing is going to get Hamas political wing a seat at any table, they need to get more focused on what they're doing, and avoid the civilian deaths.  IMHO

                      A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem.- Albert Einstein

                      by bldr on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:53:51 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  mountbatten, (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Eiron

                    in his role as partitioner of India and Pakistan, was responsible for far more death and suffering than was the IRA.

                    "The viceroy, Mountbatten, must take the blame - though not the sole blame - for the massacres in the Punjab in which between 500,000 to a million men, women and children perished," he writes.

                    That said, under the traditional laws of war, Mountbatten was not a legitimate target of those opposing British occupation of the six northern counties of Ireland. The 18 soldiers killed in County Down, however, were.

        •  And schools (indoctrination, I know) and clinics (0+ / 0-)

          and employment, and local prestige to young men who have little.  And perhaps a little pride.  Tammany hall on steroids and crew served arms. Hamas was elected because of 1) Corruption fatigue with Fatah, Hamas may be bags of dirt but they have discipline to reject corruption, Fatah couldn't get its' shit together and ran ticket splitting candidates.

          Popular support remains strong, surprising many.  The more Israel ratchets down the blockade, the stronger Hamas gets.

          In the supposedly pro-Fatah west bank, Hamas won 9 of 9 parliamentary seats.  They do best where the illegal settlements are concentrated.

          Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

          by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:29:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Is that what that green stuff is? lettuce? (0+ / 0-)

        A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem.- Albert Einstein

        by bldr on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:34:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I didn't know humanitarian groups (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Drgrishka1, Doodad, Dcoronata

      demanded favors from you after giving you aid so the can kill civilians or broadcast children's shows about how great it is to kill Jews.

      How did I live without him?

      by Pumpkinlove on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:24:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not Shergald again. Shit (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Doodad

      How did I live without him?

      by Pumpkinlove on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:24:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm sure the two soldiers they killed (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Doodad, Vanceone

      yesterday in Israel were convinced of their humanitarian motives.

  •  I wouldn't call that SUPPORTING Hamas (10+ / 0-)

    certainly not in the context you are describing...

  •  Bravo Carter. (25+ / 0-)

    If Peace is to come to that area, both sides have to talk and make their needs known.  Carter is not anti Israel, and if you had read his book you would know that. But both sides must be respected, if there is to be Peace.

    "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

    by Owllwoman on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:05:43 PM PDT

  •  Aren't they also the legaly elected government (10+ / 0-)

    of Palestine?

    Equating them with the likes of AQ by calling them a "terrorist organization" is vastly oversimplifying them.

    Here's a hit.  If something doesn't make sense to you, reexamine your presuppositions.  If Carter meeting with Hamas doesn't make sense, you need to reexamine both your view of both Carter and Hamas.

  •  Because (6+ / 0-)

    when you're 83 years old, you can do whatever you goddamn well please.

  •  My popcorn isn't quite ready yet. (4+ / 0-)

    Slow down on the comments...

    The IMF is a loan shark, bill collector, and repo man all rolled into one.

    by Kab ibn al Ashraf on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:06:51 PM PDT

  •  What a piece of crap diary (10+ / 0-)

    Good God, learn to write, and figure out when to put an apostrophe in "its" and when not to.

  •  one does not make peace with one's friends (17+ / 0-)

    meeting with and talking with every regime in the world is worthwhile, even if it is only to state clearly the points of opposition. many legitimate political parties have emerged from what their rivals called terrorist organizations.

    if meeting with hamas makes it possible that some future detente can be reached, then it is a good idea.

    surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

    by wu ming on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:08:52 PM PDT

  •  do you have a link to the story (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wxlr

    that he's planning to meet with them?

  •  Both sides of that battle (12+ / 0-)

    have committed misdeeds.  Being silently and contentiously furious and outraged with each other is not stopping the killing.  Like any other conflict, if resolution is to be reached, communication must begin at some point.  The longer the conflict rages, the more set in their positions the parties become.  Carter is no longer formally part of our government so maybe, just maybe, as an outsider he can be a catalyst for change.  Palestinians and Israelis are suffering.  I'm all for trying anything that might help stop this violence.

    Qui tacet consentit

    by RoCali on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:11:25 PM PDT

  •  Wasn't Desmond Tutu (10+ / 0-)

    (another Peace Prize recipient) also kept out of Israel on a visa pretext, and labeled an anti-semite??  

    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

    by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:11:28 PM PDT

  •  Good for him. eom (8+ / 0-)

    "The jobs are never coming back, the illegals are never going home, but we're gonna have a lot more wars."

    by slaney black on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:11:56 PM PDT

  •  Please (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mijita, Eiron

    the way this plays is that supporters of Israel occupy one pole and the questioners another, and no middle ground exists.  Its the most black and white issue of our times.  Lets find something other than the ridiculous CW discourse if we're going to discuss this.

  •  I support Carter (15+ / 0-)

    And I support peace.  Carter is willing to work for peace and talk to the only parties who can make it happen.  The Israelis and the Palestinians.  

    How can you hope for peace if you leave people out of the process?

    Go, Jimmy!

    My dogs think I'm smart and pretty.

    by martydd on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:13:32 PM PDT

  •  one woman's terrorist is another's (8+ / 0-)

    freedom fighter.  Both sides have done terrible things... we need to be more understanding of people's cultures.  Jimmy Carter is one of the most underrated presidents of the 20th century.  He told the truth and washington hated him.  

    He helped the economy by raising taxes and took moral stands unlike Reagan and Bush.

    Is it for this my life I sought?

    by Agrippa on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:17:58 PM PDT

    •  And one man's torture is another's (0+ / 0-)

      enhanced interrogation techniques.

      Just because there are two sides to every story doesn't make both sides equally right, I'm afraid.

      Why are Jews Democrats? Because the last time we followed a bush claiming to speak for God, we got lost in a desert for forty years!

      by Elsinora on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:24:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  but it does mean equal respect (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RAZE, Elsinora

        we need to respect the difference between cultures and dont always assume what we are told is true.  

        Is it for this my life I sought?

        by Agrippa on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:31:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That I would agree with. (0+ / 0-)

          However, "equal respect" should be the default position when first approaching a situation, not a permanent conclusion.  Favoring one side over the other from the start is called bias; favoring one side over the other after researching and observing the situation is called judgment.

          Why are Jews Democrats? Because the last time we followed a bush claiming to speak for God, we got lost in a desert for forty years!

          by Elsinora on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:36:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  but take a look at what you've just written (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        valadon, RAZE, martydd

        both sides are equally wrong! Both Israelis and Palestinians are engaging in "terrorism" against the other side, but only the Palestinians are being tarred with the terrorist label.

        If we don't get past the propaganda, there will never be any resolution.

        •  No. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wxlr, Elsinora

          Palestinians are targeting Israeli citizens.  Their singular goal is to kill as many as possible and scare the rest away.

          Israelis are trying to stop Palestinian terrorism.    Their singular goal is to stop further Palestinian attacks.

          How did I live without him?

          by Pumpkinlove on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:42:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Terrorism, n.: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wxlr

          violent actions or threats directed intentionally against civilian targets for the purpose of pressuring or intimidating a government into capitulating on a contested issue.

          Hamas intentionally directs its attacks against civilian targets in order to kill as many civilians as possible.  Israel attacks military targets--civilian deaths occur, but are by no stretch of the imagination the real object of the attack.  So, sorry, both sides are being stupid, but only one side is engaging in terrorism.

          Why are Jews Democrats? Because the last time we followed a bush claiming to speak for God, we got lost in a desert for forty years!

          by Elsinora on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:10:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  do you really believe what you wrote (0+ / 0-)

            or are you making a cynical argument?

            http://www.guardian.co.uk/...

            There are lots of other examples, but start with that.

            I saw a video with my own eyes of an Israeli soldier deliberately shooting a reporter in the back in a Frontline report many years ago. The Israelis haven't been the good guys for a long time.

            •  I do indeed believe it. (0+ / 0-)

              Sorry, but your Guardian article (which I've seen before, incidentally), doesn't describe any Israeli actions fitting the definition of terrorism.  Clear-cut abuses and crimes of conscience against the Palestinians, certainly.  But not every crime is terrorism just because you wish to set up a false equation between two groups.  To argue as you do would make terrorism a completely meaningless charge.

              As for this:

              I saw a video with my own eyes of an Israeli soldier deliberately shooting a reporter in the back in a Frontline report many years ago. The Israelis haven't been the good guys for a long time.

              A few years back I saw photos with my own eyes of a U.S. soldier holding a naked Iraqi prisoner on a dog leash, among other things.  Clearly, from this I can generalize that all U.S. soldiers are evil scumbags, if not the entire U.S. population.

              That's some logic you've got there.

              Why are Jews Democrats? Because the last time we followed a bush claiming to speak for God, we got lost in a desert for forty years!

              by Elsinora on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:28:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  If you are an American citizen (0+ / 0-)

                as I am, you have to be responsible for the actions your country carries out in your name. We are responsible for the atrocities committed in Abu Grahb, and in Gitmo. I don't believe the "few bad apples" bullshit for one minute.

                The Israeli government representative interviewed in the Frontline report did not try to deny the many examples of Israeli troops targeting journalists. In fact, their official position was that things were just too dangerous right then to allow freedom of the press.

                Israel has gotten a pass for far too long for the morally reprehensible things it is doing. Terrorism on the part of the Palestinians is no excuse for these wrongs.

                •  Notice that I did indeed say... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  wxlr

                  that Israel doesn't have clean hands in this affair.  However, they are not engaging in terrorism, which was the issue at hand before you commented.

                  Incidentally, I don't buy the "few bad apples" argument one bit, but neither do I buy the "we are all responsible" bullshit.  Don't present those as an either-or, it's a false dichotomy.

                  By the by, you said this Frontline report was "many years ago".  How long, exactly, is "many years"?  Was this report recent enough to still be considered relevant to the current situation?

                  As for Israel getting a pass, I don't know what America you live in, but I've seen more negative coverage of Israel in the news than of any other country except Iran.  I don't consider that getting a pass.  North Korea gets a pass.  China (until the Tibet riots) got a pass, and still does on many issues.  Sudan gets a pass.  Israel, not so much.

                  Why are Jews Democrats? Because the last time we followed a bush claiming to speak for God, we got lost in a desert for forty years!

                  by Elsinora on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:03:36 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  64% of Israelis want Hamas talks (11+ / 0-)

    According to a poll reported in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz:

    Sixty-four percent of Israelis say the government must hold direct talks with the Hamas government in Gaza toward a cease-fire and the release of captive soldier Gilad Shalit. Less than one-third (28 percent) still opposes such talks.

    Yasir Arafat was no less a terrorist then the Hamas leaders when he engaged in talks with the Israelis. I'm sure Palestinians regard the Israeli government and it's actions with as much loathing as Israeli's have for Hamas and Fatah.

    You negotiate peace with your enemies. There is no guarantee that the talks will produce results but it is not friends that need to make peace it is bitter enemies who have been killing each other.

  •  Hamas fights poverty (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, Eiron

    I know that some of what they do is bad, and Im not saying they are good guys or anything, but we have to respect that Hamas also promotes anti-poverty measures and was freely elected, and wants to end global warming.

    Is it for this my life I sought?

    by Agrippa on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:22:46 PM PDT

  •  did people forget the meaning of "diplomacy"? (11+ / 0-)

    when did talking to somebody become an endorsement of everything they stand for?

    when did ignoring somebody become an intelligent way of dealing with them?

    when did we become so shortsighted and juvenile?

    It's not a campaign. It's a movement. Will you stand up?

    by danthrax on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:28:37 PM PDT

  •  Side three, Same Effing Record... (21+ / 2-)

    Let's revive that hackneyed, weather-worn, time-honored old circular argument which insists that any public figure who questions Israeli foreign policy is an anti-Semite.  That has been a sweet way of brow-beating  spineless politician in the US into silence; but it doesn't work with Jimmy Carter, so the old whispered innuendo becomes an explicitly stated question of his personal motives and even his competency.

    Frankly, I have always wondered exactly how much of that $3 Billion in annual aid we send Israel is spent in lobbying American politicians and financing these public relations campaigns against American figures who demur.

    You know, effendi, the possibility exists that Jimmy Carter, who facilitated the first successful Mideast peace accords in 1978, is a truly disinterested and honest broker who is not afraid to use his reputation and contacts to facilitate some kind of an effective beginning to rapprochement.

    He is, after all, eighty-two years old and answerable only to God!

  •  if only more people had jimmy's courage (5+ / 0-)

    How the effing else do you achieve peace?  You have to TALK to people, both sides.  If our politicans had an ounce of integrity we could have prevented so many wasted lives by forcing the two sides to come to an agreement.  And yes, we can pressure them to do so.  Without our financial aid they couldn't not go on fighting each other.

  •  geee it's so refreshing to see (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MiklCraw4d, BlueGenes

    a really objective analysis in a post here. <snark>

    To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men~~ Abraham Lincoln

    by Tanya on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:34:12 PM PDT

  •  Zero sum thinking (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SadTexan, gnat, jhecht

    It seems that partisans for either side of the issue see any shift in opinion as a loss for one side and a gain for the other.  

    That's a losing game,

    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

    by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:34:44 PM PDT

  •  Good for him. How the hell else (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    corvo, BlueGenes

    will there eve be resolution if there isn't at least dialogue? Even with perceived criminals?

  •  Terrorist groups evolved (6+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, corvo, RAZE, martydd, juancito, BlueGenes
    Hidden by:
    dfb1968

    Look at the history of the Irgun. Real terrorists.   Stern Gang was an extremist group, as was Lehi, prone to violence.  Menachem Begin became PM, didn't he?  I see parallels between the Irgun and the Haganah rivalry, as with Hamas/Fatah.  Vegetable market bombing, train bombing, Heck, yesterday was the 60th anniversary of Deir Yassin massacre.  Anybody notice?

    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

    by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:41:46 PM PDT

    •  Nelson Mandela and the ANC (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      valadon, Eiron

      still on those terrorist lists.

    •  In memoriam- I Come From There (0+ / 0-)

      I Come From There
       
      I come from there and I have memories
      Born as mortals are, I have a mother
      And a house with many windows,
      I have brothers, friends,
      And a prison cell with a cold window.
      Mine is the wave, snatched by sea-gulls,
      I have my own view,
      And an extra blade of grass.
      Mine is the moon at the far edge of the words,
      And the bounty of birds,
      And the immortal olive tree.
      I walked this land before the swords
      Turned its living body into a laden table.

      I come from there. I render the sky unto her mother
      When the sky weeps for her mother.
      And I weep to make myself known
      To a returning cloud.
      I learnt all the words worthy of the court of blood
      So that I could break the rule.
      I learnt all the words and broke them up
      To make a single word: Home....

      -Mahmoud Darwish

      I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere ~ Thomas Jefferson

      by valadon on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 10:58:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Don't think talking with Hamas will (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    corvo

    Accomplish much other than giving them a propaganda coup personally, but I'd of also thought the same thing if he were going to speak with someone like Yitzhak Shamir or Avraham Stern.  Hamas and Hizbullah are complex organizations (and eerily similar in structure), but at their hearts they wish to do the same injustices to others that they feel were done to them.

    But Carter was able to get Menachem Begin and Anwar Sadat to come together, so maybe he knows something we don't.

    OH-16: John Boccieri will finally end 36 years of Regula Rule.

    by marcvstraianvs on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:43:37 PM PDT

  •  The ex-head of the Mossad favors talking to Hamas (6+ / 0-)

    Efraim Halevy, the former head of the Mossad, has argued that Hamas, as distasteful as they are, have shown themselves more capable of maintaining a ceasefire than Fatah or the PLO and that their genuine popular support within the Palestinian territories cannot be ignored.

    Mother Jones: Mr. Halevy, in your memoir you make clear your belief that Europe, and to a lesser extent the United States, have not fully come to terms with the national security threats posed by Islamic militancy and terrorism. Yet you've also said it would be a grave mistake for the West to treat all Islamist terrorist groups the same way, and argued that Israel should have some sort of process for talking with Hamas. If the West, led by Washington, continues to shun Hamas as an illegitimate terrorist group, do you see a risk that the group could take on a more nihilistic type of violence, a la al Qaeda?

    Efraim Halevy: Hamas is not al Qaeda and, indeed, al Qaeda has condemned them time and time again. Hamas may from time to time have tactical, temporary contact with al Qaeda, but in essence they are deadly adversaries. The same goes for Iran. Hamas receives funds, support, equipment, and training from Iran, but is not subservient to Tehran. A serious effort to dialogue indirectly with them could ultimately drive a wedge between them.

    MJ: Why do you think Israel and Washington should talk with Hamas?

    EH: Hamas has, unfortunately, demonstrated that they are more credible and effective as a political force inside Palestinian society than Fatah, the movement founded by [former Palestinian Authority president] Yassir Arafat, which is now more than ever discredited as weak, enormously corrupt and politically inept.

    [Hamas has] pulled off three "feats" in recent years in conditions of great adversity. They won the general elections to the Palestinian Legislative Council in 2006; they preempted a Fatah design to wrest control of Gaza from them in 2007; and they broke out of a virtual siege that Israel imposed upon them in January 2008. In each case, they affected a strategic surprise upon all other players in the region and upon the United States, and in each case, no effective counter strategy mounted by the US and Israel proved effective.

    Security in the West Bank is assured not by the fledgling and ineffective security forces of Abu Mazen now undergoing training once again by American-led instructors. It is the nightly incursions of the Israeli Defense Forces into the West Bank, their superior intelligence, together with that of the Israel Security Agency that does the job.

    Current strategy in the West Bank to forge a credible Palestinian security capacity is floundering; indeed, several of the deaths of Israelis at the hands of West Bank terrorists were perpetrated by none other than members of the units under the command of Abu Mazen.

    It makes sense to approach a possible initial understanding including Hamas—but not exclusively Hamas—at a time when they are still asking for one. No side will gain from a flare up leading to Israel re-entering the Gaza strip in strength to undo the ill-fated unilateral disengagement of 2005.

    MJ: Should Hamas be required to recognize Israel's right to exist before Israel would talk with it?

    EH: Israel has been successful in inflicting very serious losses upon Hamas in both Gaza and the West Bank and this has certainly had an effect on Hamas, who are now trying to get a "cease fire." But this has not cowed them into submission and into accepting the three-point diktat that the international community has presented to them: to recognize Israel's right to exist; to honor all previous commitments of the Palestinian Authority; and to prevent all acts of violence against Israel and Israelis. The last two conditions are, without doubt, sine qua non. The first demands an a priori renunciation of ideology before contact is made. Such a demand has never been made before either to an Arab state or to the Palestinian Liberation Organization/Fatah. There is logic in the Hamas' position that ideological "conversion" is the endgame and not the first move in a negotiation.

    Is Efraim Halevy an enabler of terrorists? Are Zbigniew Brzezinski and Brent Scowcroft? Are 64% of Israelis -- who, according to a Haaretz poll, favor direct talks with Hamas -- anti-Israel?

    As Yitzhak Rabin noted during the 1990s, you don't make peace with friends. Hamas isn't going away, and it's in the best interests of Israel and the United States to talk to them directly.

  •  Carter shouldn't be meeting with them (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marcvstraianvs, DemocraticLuntz, wxlr

    But the attempt to tie this to Obama is disingenuous bordering on the dishonest.

    And please, dear God, don't merge I/P flamewars with candidate flamewars.

    This is a Democratic blog, a partisan blog. It's a Democratic blog with one goal in mind: electoral victory. - FAQ

    by MBNYC on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:47:33 PM PDT

  •  Makes Me a Bit Nervous (0+ / 0-)

    When ex-presidents go flying around the world to meet with players on the world stage.  Carter also went on a trip to visit Castro.  I'm not sure that that was a good idea, either.  Maybe it's just better if "civilians" don't go around doing things that can be construed as conducting foreign policy on account of the U.S. government.

  •  Boogers on a stick (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sunshineonthebay

    Boogers On A Stick  

                           8-ounce jar cheez whiz
                           Green food coloring
                           25 - 30 pretzel sticks
                           -----TOOLS-----
                           Waxed paper
                           Long handled spoon
                           Platter

    With an adults help, melt the cheeze whiz in the microwave or on top of the stove, according to directions on the jar.

    Allow the cheese to cool slightly in the jar.

    Using a long handled spoon, carefully stir about three drops of green food coloring into the warm cheese, using just enough to turn the cheese a delicate snot green.

    To form boogers: Dip and twist the tip of each pretzel stick into the cheese, lift out, wait twenty seconds, then dip again. When cheese lumps reach an appealingly boogerish size, set pretzels, booger down, onto a sheet of waxed paper.

    Allow finished boogers on a stick to cool at room temperature for ten minutes or until cheese is firm.

    Gently pull boogers off waxed paper and arrange on a serving platter. Serves 5 to 6 booger buddies.

    Sicko Serving Suggestion: Place a bowl of chunky red salsa in the center of the platter so that guests can turn plain buggers into bloody ones.

    From the Book: Gross Grub by Cheryl Porter Random House ISBN 0-679-86693-0

  •  because he's more astute than most politicians (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    corvo

    Had we engaged them before as he suggested we might not have had the recent violence in Gaza. They were legitimately elected to represent people, primarily because they take care of the people's basic needs. And there is a signifcant faction within Hamas that would negotiate! It's called agressive diplomacy.

    Read this article about how bush and Condi armed Fatah factions which led to the recent spate of violence:
    The Gaza Bombshell
    by David Rose
    April 2008

    After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, David Rose reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.

    http://www.vanityfair.com/...

    I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere ~ Thomas Jefferson

    by valadon on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:05:38 PM PDT

  •  I must be a terrorist if I don't support people (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, RAZE, martydd, sunshineonthebay

    having their homes bulldozed.

    The only way to stop violence is to come together to talk.  There's violence on both sides.  The only way to move past it is to invite everyone to the table.

    I love Jimmy Carter.

  •  "Israel and Hamas renew talks ..." (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MiklCraw4d, Eiron, sunshineonthebay

    Israel and Hamas renew talks on freeing abducted soldier Shalit

    Wed., August 08, 2007 Av 24, 5767

    http://www.haaretz.com/...

    Should Israel hold talks with Hamas?
    Two-thirds of Israelis want their government to hold direct talks with the militant Palestinian group Hamas, a new poll reveals
    February 27, 2008 12:19 PM

    http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/...

    http://www.angus-reid.com/...

    As Richard Sale pointed out in a piece for UPI:

    "Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years. Israel 'aided Hamas directly – the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),' said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic [and International] Studies. Israel's support for Hamas 'was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,' said a former senior CIA official."

    Middle East analyst Ray Hanania concurs:

    "In addition to hoping to turn the Palestinian masses away from Arafat and the PLO, the Likud leadership believed they could achieve a workable alliance with Islamic, anti-Arafat forces that would also extend Israel's control over the occupied territories."

    http://www.antiwar.com/...

    and so on. Of course Israel should talk to Hamas, even though they kill innocent people. Israel kills innocent people, and both sides endorse some version of collective punishment against the civilian population of the opponent. Hamas's ideology is fucked-up and explicitly racist. Anyway, you have to talk to your enemy to make peace. So Carter pushing Hamas towards accepting a two-state solution-- what he, the UN, the US, and most of the planet endorse-- is probably a good thing.

    & this diary is lame.

    •  I think I'd also give equal time to F'd up (0+ / 0-)

      ideologies (racism might be an incorrect term)-otherwise I would agree with what you've said. Both sides have committed injustices; both sides have legitmate claims.

      I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere ~ Thomas Jefferson

      by valadon on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:21:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yup, Israel funded the creation of Hamas (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      valadon

      as a counterweight to the PLO.  Under the divide and conquer model.  It backfired.

      Wouldn't surprise me to see a shift to again supporting Hamas after Fatah gets stronger.

      Something, or someone has to break the cycle.

      Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

      by Eiron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:23:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If you want to talk, you got to go to the action (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, RAZE

    Jimmy Carter is going because if you want to make peace, you have to talk to the people involved. Not just the Israelis, not just the "good" Palestinians, but to the people firing the rockets. Hamas. You have to talk and see why they are firing them.
    This may sounds simplistic, but it's small consistent steps that gets things done. Look at the resolution of the Northern Ireland violence. For years, it seemed hopeless, "Why do you want to talk to those IRA or Unionist forces, all they want is violence, talking won;t do anything", but eventually it did do something and Ireland is much better off for it.  Characterizing Hamas as terrorists uninterested in anything else, rather than human beings like everyone else, perpetuates the problem. If they only care about terror, then the only option is an Iraq style complete invasion of their area. Is that the solution you would rather see ?

  •  So now Carter is anti-semitic, right?? Whatever. (6+ / 0-)

    This calling everyone who doesn't blindly support israel an anti-semite shit is really tired.  I don't support Hamas; however, I disagree with labeling them terrorists - especially now that they represent the popular will of the Palestinian people.  I thought it was a mistake to disengage with the Palestinians, simply because they had a somewhat democratic election and decided they wanted a more forceful hand, which was a mistake - in more than one way.  But that was their choice.  

    However, I can see an argument to call Hamas a terrorist organization.  But, to call Carter an anti-semite because he meets with a foreign government is pretty absurd.  Why can't he just have a different point of view?  Why does this make him an anti-semite?

  •  First of all (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gnat, valadon, martydd

    what do

    JImmy is also, allegedly, an Obama supporter

    AND

    Jimmy Carter is planning a trip to meet the current leaders of Hamas

    have to do with each other?  Jimmy Carter is an EX-PRESIDENT and an intellegient man, he is allowed to make his own decisions.  If you don't agree with it, write him a letter, but don't pull a right wing smear and try to force the guilt by association meme.

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." -Plato

    by Snickers77 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:37:50 PM PDT

  •  Maybe so they'll stop firing the missiles? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eiron, wxlr

    The diarist dismisses the possibility out of hand that Jimmy Carter's trip might accomplish something good. But provising it is unlikely that he can accomplish a breakthrough is not the same as proving that his goal is not accomplishing a breakthrough. I understand there is a great deal of anger against Jimmy Carter in the pro-Israel community over his book "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid" and his statements since then. And there are critiques of Carter's approach that are valid. But at the same time, I think it's unreasonable to see in Carter's recent statements or his decision to meet with Hamas a hostility or ill will towards the Jewish people.

  •  Can anybody tell me... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon, corvo, Eiron

    ....why the state of Israel's treatment of Palestinians is any different than the treatment of the former State of South Africa gave to its indigenous African citizens under apartheid....and why American tax dollars should continue to support the State of Israel under these circumstances?

    •  Several reasons (0+ / 0-)
      1.   Blacks in South Africa wanted equal rights, not to revove all white people from the land.
      1.   Whites in South Africa were not a historically persecuted minority needing a safe haven.
      1.   Whites in South Africa were not regularly and continuously subjected to violent attacks and terrorism.
      1.   Blacks in South Africa were seeking to create a democratic state that would respect all religions, the equal rights of women, free speech and press and other liberal values.
      1.   There was never any fear that a black majority controlled South Africa would be taken over by Hamas and Iran.
  •  Hey, Shitbird! (0+ / 0-)

    I'm still waiting for you to explain how a combat vet like me with two tours since 9/11 and still serving hates the troops.
    Please explain, cause you know, I still can't wrap my mind around it.  The other question you haven't answered is what's on your DD214?
    You can hide out, never venturing outside your own diaries all you want.  Intellectual and moral cowardice is just as bad as the physical type.  That's OK though.  I'll come to you, when I can be bothered to notice you.

    "I don't belong to an organized political party. I'm a democrat."--Will Rogers

    by soonergrunt on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:37:49 PM PDT

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