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The Democratic Party is in danger of losing a coalition partner that has been among it's most loyal if it nominates Hillary Clinton. Her surrogates have injected race into this contest in a very negative fashion with Geraldine Ferraro, and more recently Bob Johnson, and now she re-iterates to Black Americans of faith  how she really feels.

Hillary Clinton has now said twice she will not go to my Church.  She tells me you can’t pick your relatives, but you can pick your pastor.  Ok, so who is did Hillary pick to let America know for the first time that this was how she felt?   Was it a sympathetic media source?  No, Richard stinking Mellon Scaife.  
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Some of this guys greatest hits though involve Hillary.  Remember when the right wing was screaming about how Hillary had Vince Foster’s head blown off?  Remember the vast right wing conspiracy that President Clinton accused of trying to destroy his presidency?  THIS DUDE WAS THE MONEY MAN AND THE MOUTH PIECE OF IT.

So why does Hillary submit to a private interview with Mellon Scaife and his minions of doom? Why was this the media outlet? How was this guy the right person to share her message regarding the Rev. Wright?   It’s because she is working with these people.  Hillary seeks to represent their audience.

So, now during this last travesty and hatchet job of a debate  She takes the opportunity to let us know again that she would stroll on us, but at least this time she let us know which sermon was so offensive.  If there is anyone out there who has not heard for themselves Rev. Wright's 9/11 sermon past the poisoned sound bites in it’s entirety please go to YouTube right now and do so.  

http://ca.youtube.com/...

Tell me then what was in that message that was at all anti-American, or even not in keeping with the ideals of the Democratic Party.  Where exactly is she walking out!  The Rev. Wright did not "blame America for 911".  He illustrated how American policy as practiced by NeoCons could cause enough hatred in others that they would attack us.  He further warned that if we should take our revenge against innocents we would be on the wrong side of God.  

I wonder if the Democratic Party is so dense as to think Black Americans of faith do not note Hillary's behavior here.  She told the 8000 members of the RELATIVELY CONSERVATIVE Trinity Church of Christ that she would walk out of their Church, their family and community.  No, NO! Hillary we are not a community to be pandered to and then thrown under the bus with the political winds.  Why was the Rev. Wright alright when Bill got caught with his DNA on another ladies dress.

I have no doubt Hillary would  leave her church and the place that introduced her to Jesus  because it is abundantly clear that there is no belief, no ethic, no moral, or important relationship she would not gladly sacrifice in order to further her own naked ambition.  

Hillary is a political succubus.  She will suck the energy and will from this party until we are broken and defeated.  As a Black American I would never vote for her, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Originally posted to An Adept's Journey on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:32 AM PDT.

Poll

If nominated will Hillary reclaim faithful blacks by

0%0 votes
0%0 votes
1%1 votes
4%4 votes
34%29 votes
28%24 votes
30%25 votes

| 83 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Hillary is in bed with both Scaife and Murdock (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    esquimaux, catchaz, Shhs, Alohilani

    (scary metaphorical image).  If a man/woman is known by the company they keep, then she has just defined herself.

  •  I hope you enjoy (7+ / 0-)

    Presdient McCain.

    Calling someone a succubus is okay on Daily Kos so long as it is Clinton, but it offends  me.

    Threats on behalf of yourself mean little.  Furthermore, you do not speak for Black Americans of faith.

    These kind of diaries also encourage a few Clinton supporters of "faith" who say they won't vote for Obama.

    I prefer either Obama or Clinton to McCain.

    I'm a Democrat.

    "They're going to give their power away when we take their power away." John Edwards

    by TomP on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:39:09 AM PDT

    •  easy for you to say (8+ / 0-)

      Clinton didn't attack YOUR church.

      why would we think this hideous candidate could insult nearly every African American in the country, and then they should vote for her?
      asking Black people to support people who launch racist attacks is the height of white blindness and proof too many Dems take Black votes, and Black people, for granted.  

      we should work to defeat any candidate who steals the Democratic nomination.

      by catchaz on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:53:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not just blacks... n/t (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        catchaz, Shhs

        Consign corporatism to the dankest crypt, and assign justice to the highest crag. For a More Perfect Union.

        by Alohilani on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:07:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  she'll have a lot of amends to make (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Elise, catchaz

        if she gets the nomination and she'd better do them if she does, otherwise the most she could count on from me is my vote. not a dime though, or a mintue of my time (it only takes 20 seconds to actually vote, 45 if there's a ballot question). I know I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

        Central PA Kossacks"Obama can hope all over me!" Si se fucking puede!

        by terrypinder on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:10:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Don't let that individual upset you (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Elise, malharden, kpbuick, Shhs, Alohilani

        He is a nasty, sanctimonious ass whose contempt for Obama is months-old.

        Should there be a President McCain prevailing over a Nominee Clinton, the entire responsibility for that scenario lies with the superdelegates making decisions now, decisions which have the potential to disaffect very core Democratic constituencies.

        I agree with nearly every thing you've stated in your diary.  Ignore those who have become offended that you've done this party the service of saying, in advance, that the losing Democratic candidate is unacceptable to you.  She's unacceptable to me too.  I will not support this party if she's nominated, period and end of story.

        "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

        by GN1927 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:42:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  She won't be nominated, unless... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    catchaz, cybrestrike, Shhs, SquirmyRooter

    there is some tragedy involving Obama.

    I will not stop agitating until We have our country back.

    by David Kroning on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:39:29 AM PDT

  •  I will not vote for her either (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    catchaz, RoCali, Alohilani

    It is for a lot of the same reasons you state. If she is willing to toss people under the bus, then I have a responsibilty to exercise my right to remove my self from under that bus and vote for someone else. At the beginning of this election I would have voted for Hillary if Barack did not win. Now that will not happen. I feel strongly about this.

    •  I will vote for Obama... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sychotic1

      Despite supporters like yourself.

      Now if you or the diarist was to be offered a place in the Obama administration, I would vote McCain for sure.

      "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

      by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:54:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Read the sig, (5+ / 0-)

        Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

        by Shhs on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:04:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I've spent the better part of my adult life (0+ / 0-)

          trying to get beyond "race", or "gender", or  as an indicator of... well anything. I've come to realize my error. Evidently, too many people are afraid to let these distinctions go.
          Racism and sexism are alive and well in the USA, simply because too many people, of both (all)sexes and all races don't agree with Dr. King's dream and just want to keep those artificial divisions alive.

          I started this campaign season in the Obama camp.
          I was quite taken with his speech at the last convention, and (rightfully) expected great things from him.
          I came to realize over the course of the campaign that while good, he wasn't the best choice for the office. He eventually settled into my #4 slot, a very respectable position for a freshman Senator so new to the game.

          But I became horrified at what became of the campaign dialogue itself. Many (but not all) of Obama's supporters (of any racial background) more closely resemble cultists than supporters.
          They demonize his opposition, calling them things like racists... or sometimes just "patronizing"... they go into full fledged apologist mode anytime Obama slips up in the slightest.
          It is hypocrisy, it is delusion, and it is damned unhealthy for the party, the movement and the republic.

          And this diary is a prime example.

          "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

          by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:30:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Just because (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            malharden, Shhs, RoCali, Alohilani

            people chose to ignore racism and sexism doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.  The only way to defeat the "isms" is to point it out.  If everytime you dismiss people pointing it out, you are allowing the "isms" to remain.

            "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." -Plato

            by Snickers77 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:36:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Pointing it out (0+ / 0-)

              where it doesn't exist, makes the problem worse.
              We all have prejudices. All of us.

              We all have been conditioned, in many ways, through our upbringing. We may sometimes say or do things that might appear other than our intentions.

              If I see a group of black or hispanic youth in what appears to be gang colors on the street at night, I cross to the other side.

              Does that make me racist?

              If I see a group of young men in fraternity regalia, or matching football jerseys and intoxicated, I do the same... regardless of race.

              I think of that as being careful.

              I've slipped and said things at times that might be construed as racist... and I felt shame... although that wasn't my meaning.

              Hillary Clinton has done or said nothing that merits the hate she is recieving, from several quarters.

              It's not the race thing.
              It's the whole thing. Rationalize it however you want, but if the Rethugs win again, we are all fucked.

              Sensibilities and bruised feelings be damned.

              "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

              by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:18:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, it doesn't make the problem worse (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Shhs

                Because to solve any problem even from an engineering point of view (and that is how isms must be handled) is to first assess the problem. When you get ready to fix something (and it's obvious you want a solution, just wait until you find out there's not one to prejudice), you figure out what the problem is, you analyze, you look at the core and then you decide the plan of action to take.

                A racist isn't the worst thing in the world to be, and that is really part of why I feel we'll never solve this problem. Instead of facing it head on and saying, yes I benefit from a racist system we have become invested in saying, "There is no racism, there is no system, there is no problem", why not focus on this as a problem and not on that. The problem is that because our prejudices are always with us even the way we solve that problem will be infused with isms. Your attitude is that of someone who doesn't understand that unlike you many don't have the ability to ignore what is in front of them.

                This isn't about you personally, no one is asking you to take on white guilt or the guilt of racist aggressions or sayings you may have made in the past.

                You can't even get past the phrase "this race thing". Your being a person of color, does not at all excuse that you were raised by and are identifying with a way of handling things that would cause incredible psychological damage to people who were raised, look and are culturally non-majority Americans.

                •  As an engineer (0+ / 0-)

                  I have to take issue with your statement.

                  There is plenty of actual racism that does exist to waste time trying to solve the false instances.

                  I fear that the false perceptions of racism are often manifestations of racism in the perciever themselves.

                  What are we doing to fix that? I am as close to race-blind I can make myself... again with good reason. At the same time, I'm a big fan of cultural diversity.
                  But just because I don't see "race", per se, doesn't mean I don't see racism. Because I do.
                  Lots of it. I've quit a job because my boss made derogatory racial comments about someof the employees. There are family members that I refuse to have anything to do with because they are full of hate based solely on race.

                  I don't have Black friends. I don't have White friends either... I have friends, period. And they are all special, each in their own way.
                  When I was dating, there was no racial litmus test in my choices. (I did have cultural and spiritual guidelines, though... I didn't date many Christians, but that's not a surprise, I'll bet.)

                  Socialogically, I will yield the point, although I would suggest that without the socialization of which you speak, I'm better able to see racism clearly, because my ingrained biases are balanced by my understanding of self.
                  That is where I'm coming from, anyway.

                  "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

                  by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:47:05 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Not an engineer, I'm actually a (0+ / 0-)

                    User Interactivity specialist.

                    Here's your problem:

                    What are we doing to fix that? I am as close to race-blind I can make myself... again with good reason.

                    But just because I don't see "race", per se, doesn't mean I don't see racism.

                    We don't need that kind of thinking, we don't need race-blind thinking. It is dangerous. What is not seeing race? It means that once again people get equated with not having their own identities but in with being normatively acceptable in your point of view. We need to move past that. We need to stop relating to people on the idea that they "just like us", except for this stuff. I don't want to be just like you, I want the ability to have an identity whose validity doesn't rely on how similar to you I am.

                    Lots of it. I've quit a job because my boss made derogatory racial comments about someof the employees. There are family members that I refuse to have anything to do with because they are full of hate based solely on race.

                    Now you talk about the job you quit right, but let's think about the luxury that allowed you to be able to quite a job in a slumping economy and to talk about it as a badge of honor?

                    Socialogically, I will yield the point, although I would suggest that without the socialization of which you speak, I'm better able to see racism clearly, because my ingrained biases are balanced by my understanding of self.
                    That is where I'm coming from, anyway.

                    But we have all been socialized, no one makes decisions from inside a vacuum, so you are not able to see it any clearer than the rest of us. The difference is the rest of us are willing to openly acknowledge that prejudice is there and that we're probably benefiting and suffering from it at any given time.

                    And your opinion belies that you think the rest of us don't have an understanding of self. Which, I think is part of the problem this assumption that we simply are allowing race to color this based on perception. Really what's happening is you're falling into the trap of thinking there is any real neutrality or objectivity that this issue can be judged from.

                    •  See, that's part of the problem. (0+ / 0-)

                      We don't need that kind of thinking, we don't need race-blind thinking. It is dangerous. What is not seeing race? It means that once again people get equated with not having their own identities but in with being normatively acceptable in your point of view. We need to move past that. We need to stop relating to people on the idea that they "just like us", except for this stuff. I don't want to be just like you, I want the ability to have an identity whose validity doesn't rely on how similar to you I am.

                      How far we have come in 40 years...

                      I choose not to see race. I mean, of course I see it... just like I can't help but notice gender. But the point is that I don't expect people to behave a certain way because of it. I don't expect a Black person to act Black, any more than I expect a woman to wear a dress.
                      Our race (or gender) does not define who we are. I don't normalize other people to my standard, either.

                      I have a Black friend and coworker who is an engineer, and was brought up in the midwest. I spoke to him many times on the phone before he transferred down here. I never knew he was Black, until he showed up at work. And it made no difference. I have another friend, who is a damn fine drummer, from Senegal. We have spent many a night drumming the sun up around a fire.
                      I have more in common with each of them than they do with each other. So it isn't all about race.

                      Race itself has very little to do with who we are.
                      It is the perception of others, due to our race, that makes the difference.

                      Stop judgements based on race, and we are free to be who we choose to be.

                      "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

                      by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:51:54 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You are being deliberaterly obtuse. (0+ / 0-)

                        Our race (or gender) does not define who we are. I don't normalize other people to my standard, either.

                        Our race and gender plays a huge part in who we are and in identity. Society often treats us accordingly based on how it perceives us, to say that these things don't matter or aren't important is to deny how identity is formed and molds to societal views. It doesn't have to define it (though you will find a few people who disagree with you there, many of them feminists and many of them people of color who will tell you outright that this is a centered point of their definitions of themselves).

                        And yes, what you're doing here is called self-normativity. Much like hetero-normative behavior, it becomes what is correct because it is the most socially acceptable view among the majority. As soon as you get over the idea that you developed an identity outside of society.. the sooner you can get to understanding my argument.

                        I have a Black friend and coworker who is an engineer, and was brought up in the midwest. I spoke to him many times on the phone before he transferred down here. I never knew he was Black, until he showed up at work. And it made no difference. I have another friend, who is a damn fine drummer, from Senegal. We have spent many a night drumming the sun up around a fire.
                        I have more in common with each of them than they do with each other. So it isn't all about race.

                        No one ever said it was all about race, but I invite you to listen to yourself months from now or years from now after you opinion has changed how you illustrate your supposed non-racism by bringing up people of color you know. I never say, "I'm married to a white guy, so I'm not prejudiced." Because I understand that prejudice isn't simply about friends I make or the people I like. By the way, above thread didn't you say you had no black friends?

                        Depends on who you ask on how much race has little do to do with who we are as there are libraries filled with information by people who experience race not as an afterthought but as a reality that disagree with you. In fact, I'm pretty insulted that you've told me that that it has very little to do with who I am as I know this to be a blatant non-truth to my reality. I would not at all be the person I am today without the passions I have today if I were not a visibly mixed-race person, who grew up poor, female, and in the church.

                        A really simple example of this, is had I not had the experiences that I've had my viewpoint my actually be more in line with yours. It's inline with someone who has lived and understands racism against black people. Who places an emphasis on positive black identity. The ability to be free and to be black and to be unapologetic about that.

                        Don't tell me how to view life or to view race, you are free to choose who you want to be but if you think society won't push back against that notion you're not living in reality.

                        The simplicity of your argument is exactly what is wrong with colorblind rhetoric. It is a blatant denial of my reality.

                        I also have a friend from Senegal and yet, that doesn't stop me from taking into account that within the black American community there can be tension between immigrant African groups and "native" born black Americans. I'm not blind to their struggle, I never tell him that his feelings aren't valid.

                        I'm done with this though, I have work to do. I recommend you read some Tim Wise if you are serious about understanding why your answers are offensive.

                      •  Our race or gender does not define who we are (0+ / 0-)

                        Bulls**t!
                        It has everything to do with who each and everyone of are and will be. Our experiences shape our ability to rise above the indoctrinated theories of our parents households to be molded again in the college atmosphere if you are lucky enough to attend a diverse institution of learning and again in the workplace and again in life experiences.

                        At some point in the life of anyone slandered by a derrogatory name or troubled by it's use a decision is made to rise above the experience or wallow in the muck of ignorance to the pain that was caused by the slinger or the recipient.

                        Having friends of another race is not a disqualifier of being a racists. You may treat your friends differently because they are your friends and still participate subconsciously in the hurtful activities. Your friends of another race MAY have seen it flare up in you and never called you on it because they don't want to hurt your feelings and generally they know that you're a good  person. Ask them.

                        The greatest travesty is that the attitude of MANY in the race majority believe that if a name isn't called you are not a racist. If you hire a minority, you are not a racist. If you have friends of other races you are not a racist. One must examine actions to determine behavior and the actions have to be offensive to of note.

                        I believe that as more millionaires in every culture emerge, America is retreating from racist behavior and entering into greater class biased society. The haves and the have nots.

                         

                  •  I would be willing to bet (0+ / 0-)

                    that you have never been called a N*gger when the person saying it never even opened their mouth.  it probably wouldn't even occur  for you to realize when someone was doing it to someone else.  Most Black people have had that experience, so when you tell us we are imagining racism because you can't see it, doesn't mean that it is not their.  It is unfair for you to denigrate our experiences because you did not experience it personally....It is also unfair to call us stupid because our interests include wanting to be respected by the people we vote for.

                    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." -Plato

                    by Snickers77 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:30:50 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm not sure if you are male or female... (0+ / 0-)

                      so I will address this to you, but if it doesn't fit, perhaps someone else can benefit.

                      Nope, I've never been called that, verbally of otherwise. I have have been called a c*nt, however, and non-verbally a time or two, too.

                      I have been referred to as Jewish (which I am not) in various colorful ways, and well as derogatorily referred to as Hispanic, which I have less ancestry than I do of African descent. This is because of my dark coloration, and of course the ignorance of the perpetrators.

                      I have been snubbed openly, because of my spiritual practices, and discriminated against as well.
                      I've been called lot os things over the years... and I don't really give a rats ass.

                      I know who I am, and I will never let any others take that from me. Even when the occasional asswipe calls me a racist because I still support Clinton, it doesn't bother me... because I know me better than they do, and I will always defer to the expert.

                      So, no... I will never know those particular experiences of which you speak, as you will never know mine. That doesn't mean we can't understand them, not fully, of course, but to an extent.

                      I am not diminishing your experiences at all, no more than you are diminishing mine.
                      You aren't, are you?

                      "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

                      by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:05:12 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I am not diminishing (0+ / 0-)

                        your experiences, I am merely stating that they are different from mine.  You have been suggesting throughout this thread that Blacks simply believe that Hillary's campaign tactics are racial motivated because somebody told us to, that we are not intelligent enough to use our own experiences and come to these conclusions on our own.  
                        I would also tell you that being called a c*unt is completely different from being called the N-word.  I know because I have been called both.  People weren't murdered, lyched and sprayed with water hoses while being called a c*unt.  
                        I am not calling you racist, I am simply asking you to see thing from another point of view, different from your own.  I am also asking you to understand that in my world, open racism, white supremacism and black oppression still happens, but not as often as it did in my Mother's generation, but people are still sensitive to these things, I am 30 years old, but when my mom was growing up, in the south, she would not have been allowed to sit a certain lunch counters, use certain drinking fountains or go to certain schools.  To ask people to put these things out of their mind when they cast a vote, is asking a bit much.

                        "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." -Plato

                        by Snickers77 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:57:03 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Nope. Nothing of the sort. (0+ / 0-)

                          You have been suggesting throughout this thread that Blacks simply believe that Hillary's campaign tactics are racial motivated because somebody told us to, that we are not intelligent enough to use our own experiences and come to these conclusions on our own.

                          That doesn't describe what I have been saying at all... except through the filters of your perception.

                          I never put "Black" in there at all.

                          I believe that many Obama supporters are making those claims, sure. And doing it solely because they have bought into Obama lock, stock and barrel.
                          But it has nothing to do with their race.
                          Obama supporters of all races have fallen into that trap. I blame both campaigns for what this race has become. In my mind, the Obama campaign  has manipulated this to their advantage. You would disagree, I would imagine.
                          Just a difference of opinion, and doesn't make either of us a racist, or a bad person.

                          People weren't murdered, lyched and sprayed with water hoses while being called a c*unt.

                           

                          Sprayed with water, and lynched... no. Raped and murdered (or an attempt therof),  yes.

                          There are people (male and female) who are voting or have voted for Clinton largely because she is female. (I don't expect an arguement there).
                          There are also people (of all races) who are supporting Obama largely because he is Black, and to be honest, others that will never vote for him for the same reason.

                          It is foolish to pretend otherwise.

                          I'm okay with that... as long as we don't delude ourselves to believing that we have higher motives in operation.

                          There are also many voters who support their candidate simply because they think that he or she would make a better President.
                          But if you support Hillary around here, these days, you will get called a racist, just for evidencing that support. That is a Problem.
                          And that is what I am talking about.

                          "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

                          by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 02:16:20 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Just so you know (0+ / 0-)

                            I am not speaking for obama supporters.  I am soley speaking for me.  I don't expect people to do what I do, and I would expect that I should be able to come to my own independent judgements.  I don't know if other people have been manipulated, I know that I haven't.  I would never suggest that people who support Hillary are racist, I don't think the majority of them are.  But on the other hand, many Hillary supporters say that all Obama supporters are sexist.  And that is wrong as well.  I do appreciate our conversation.  I think it goes a long way toward healing when the primary is over.  I am glad that you listened to my point of view without insults...That has been rare these days.

                            "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." -Plato

                            by Snickers77 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 03:25:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  To Pointing It Out (0+ / 0-)

                If someone complains about a problem, it exists. It may not be a part of your reality, but the emotional value is valid.

                You are not a racists for crossing the street to be safe. You are a bigot for making a judgement about people that you do not know and crossing the street for that reason. Your reason for crossing the street was not safty first, it was "they look like gang members".

                Notice that in order for you to cross the street when you saw the matching jerseys they had to be intoxicated for you to seek safety from potential "trouble". That is a racist attitude.

                I summize that in your eyes those wearing "colors" and therefore "gang members" are black and the wearers of the "football jerseys" were white. In reality they could all be green, but by catagorizing their potential behavior by the clothes they wear or what they look like is a bigot's attitude.

                Someone that doesn't see color would simply state that I cross the street for safety when I see a group of men that outnumber me.

          •  YOu say Obama supporters demonize (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            RoCali, Alohilani

            the oposition.  But what are you doing in this post?  You call the cult like.  As I have stated to you b4 this is not about Obama.  This is about the potrayl of the black church, this is about dignity of a comunity.  You don't think many of us have tried to get beyond race?

            I'll repost another comment that reminds me of what my husbnd (who is a white Republican) has said.  It's a primary GOP argument.

            This primary has really outed the patronizing way some white liberals think about African Americans.   I don't think one group of people should tie themselves to one party like we have, I know we haven't had a choice and that really sucks.  It's that lack of a choice for who we could vote for that makes it easy for politicians to use our community, we are just stepping stones and it hurts like hell to realize that.

            This is not about Obama.  Please try to be empathetic and put your self in the shoes of those 8k Trinity members, or put your self in the shoes of my parents.

            Some ppl tried to key their car bc they had an Obama sticker on it.  It's a long story, but basically race, and class played a role in it.  HRC has done some damage that you can't just undo over night.  Look at what you have said in this thread, that stuff hurts real people.  I'm a real person and I have been hurt, does that even matter?

            Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

            by Shhs on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:37:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I wish you guys would stop quoting this dream (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Elise, malharden, Shhs, RoCali, Alohilani

            because it's quite obvious you never read the rest of Martin Luther King Jr.'s  speeches. It's not simply because we don't want progress to the point of that dream, racism, sexism and classism are real because they are also profitable. These divisions aren't artificial of people who don't want to move forward.

            Cornell West was right, after 600 years of being built on racism, classism, genocide there's no way that 40 years after Civil Rights, someone can be post-racial. Do you understand that Barack and his family are receiving death threats? Do you understand that people actually want to kill him?

            Racism isn't just about "hatred", you really do not understand the psychological politics behind racism or sexism if you think you can ignore it all, work with everyone and go away.

            This diary is a prime example of the anger and frustration that some black voters feel, and your answer is the prime example of the naivete that people have about racial relations in this country. It's not going to go away if you just don't think about it.

          •  Your big mistake was trying to get "beyond" (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Shhs, RoCali

            them. There is no getting beyond. It's absurd to think that we should "get beyond" these things.

            I am a woman...that affects who I am...my experiences...etc. There's no getting beyond that.

            The point isn't to get beyond. The point is that race and gender don't make anyone less equal. That is what we need to reach.

            Either you believe people are equal and all deserve the same basic respect and rights, or you don't.

            And you know...just because YOU don't see racism doesn't mean it isn't there.

            That's the most ignorant thing about comments like this. "I didn't see the racism"...oh, well then YOU must be right! Everything is all peaches and flowers! No one out there is racist!

            Maybe the reason you didn't see it is because you've been privileged enough that it hasn't been directed at you. I see racism EVERY DAY. It isn't directed at me...but it's there.

      •  Well I am sorry you feel that way (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        malharden, catchaz, kpbuick, Shhs, LogicaLizE

        But I stand by what I said. As an American and someone's who's father could not vote in this country until he was 40 years old(I am 40 years old), I believe that the tactics Bill Clinton used to say that Black votes don't really count because they are only voting for Obama because he is black is not only offensive, but down right wrong.

        Clarence Thomas is black and I sure as heck would not vote for him.

        Don't worry your vote is safe for Obama, I won't be in his administratio, but will Sean Hannity be in Clinton's?

  •  the sad thing is (10+ / 0-)

    she had the black vote up until South Carolina. It's her own fault she lost it.

    Central PA Kossacks"Obama can hope all over me!" Si se fucking puede!

    by terrypinder on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:46:19 AM PDT

  •  My immediate family feels she has a slim chance (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sychotic1, catchaz

    So yeah, we aren't worried about voting for her. But if by some act of Bullshit it happens, the war and the Supreme Court matters the most to us.
    What's troubling me the most is the problems we are having convincing other people to vote for her if the situation arises. And this isn't limited to race. I'm really hoping this is a Passion of the Primaries kind of thing and these threats of staying home ( no one wants to vote for McCain ) are just that, threats.

  •  she thinks she'll send bill out there (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sychotic1

    browbeat barack into doing a couple speeches (which he'll do for his political future) and the AA's will fall in line.

    And that'll probably work. America can't afford President McCain.

    if [MSM] covered Einstiens paper on relatively... the title would have been, "Einstein calls Newton a Bitch! Oh Snap!" -kingfishstew

    by amnesiaproletariat on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:52:17 AM PDT

  •  "Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    catchaz, Alohilani

    Millions of people of color, as well as honkies like myself, will simply refuse to vote for Hillary Clinton if she somehow steals the nomination.

    Hillary's track record of lying is compelling and clear.  There's no need to try out a liar in the White House.  We have one now and we know how well THAT's worked out..

    •  Millions of the rest of us (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sychotic1

      have every reason to feel the same way about the Obama campaign. I think the insinuation of race and racism to gain political advantage is reprehensible.

      And yet, we know our duty to the progressive cause and to America. So we will pull the lever for BHO... because he isn't John McCain.

      If you are stupid enough to allow the Rethugs to win again, if Hillary were to win the nomination, then you are not a Democrat, not a Progressive, and not sane...

      You are just another member of the cult.

      "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

      by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:00:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are being patronizing. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        malharden, catchaz, velvet blasphemy

        I'll repost my comment above.

        Uhm bc Us black folks can't think and (0+ / 0-)
        make decisions for our selves.  God you are so fucking insulting.  Do you even realize what you are saying?  Do you listen to Tom Joyner, to you read Jack and Jill politics?   My dad immediately wrote a letter to dean that night, on his own.

        Black people are not fucking pawns we have a mind of our own.  We can think for our fucking selves.  You are really pissing me off!

        Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

        Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

        by Shhs on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:01:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not at all. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sychotic1

          I say the same thing to the asswipes over at MyDD who say they won't vote for Obama.

          It ain't about being Black. Or female, for that matter.

          It's about getting caught up in your own delusions, and doing stupid (really stupid, if McCain wins)things because of it.

          "Reality has a well-known liberal bias"... remember that? Maybe it's time we started acting like it again.

          "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

          by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:16:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  quit the "cult" shit (8+ / 0-)

        if you can't talk to people without insults like "cult" then don't talk to them at all. anyone who uses terms like bots or cults, for EITHER camp, is admitting they don't ahve arguments.

        again, it is the height of arrogance to ask Black people to vote for a white candidate who uses OPEN racism to win racist votes.

        we should work to defeat any candidate who steals the Democratic nomination.

        by catchaz on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:12:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I've wondered what folks from Trinity were (6+ / 0-)

    thinking about this...It reminds me, believe it or not, of a philosophy class I had on Immanuel Kant.  This western philosopher argued that it is immoral to treat people as as a way to get what you want; it is always necessary to show respect for others and to honor their worth and dignity.

    Even if she wants to criticize Rev. Wright, she could have done it in a way that didn't ostracize the churchgoers. (And I do believe that his sermon was taken completely out of context).

    We have all learned a sad lesson at the expense of the black church community, which has been nothing if not nurturing to the Clintons.

    It's truly, truly sad.

    And I hope that Trinity congregants are holding up.

    "The race is not always to the swift, but to those who keep running."

    by Fasaha on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:53:00 AM PDT

  •  Tired of being a tool for the Clintons (12+ / 0-)

    To the two posters who wrote "I hope you enjoy President McCain" and that this was a cold-blooded move on the part of Obama to "depict her and Bill as racists" please respect the true sense of hurt, betrayal, and manipulation that some African Americans, including myself, feel towards the Clintons.

    For me, their slide began well before the Obama candidacy. It started on the south lawn of the White House when Bill Clinton used a heavy-set black woman to hand him the pen that would "change welfare as we know it." As we know it...statistically, more whites than blacks on welfare but in terms of stereotype "as we KNOW it" the very image of the black "welfare queen."

    Or, inviting Rev. Wright and other ministers to the White House for the photo op to "cleanse" Bill of his "sins." Use use use.

    I grew up in a house across the street from Trinity. The only reason my family did not attend was because my grandfather followed his minister, Rev. Thurston, from Arkansas in 1938. But as my grandfather experienced failing health, he listened to Jeremiah Wright on the radio and found comfort in his sermons.

    Of course Adept2U doesn't speak for "all" black voters, but he does speak for many who are disaffected and downright disgusted by the Clinton campaign.

    •  Clinton supporters don't care (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Shhs, velvet blasphemy, Alohilani

      please respect the true sense of hurt, betrayal, and manipulation that some African Americans, including myself, feel towards the Clintons.

      to do this, they'd have to have respect for Black people. apparently they don't.

      thank you very much for your post. there are LOTS of Dems who do care, and will be working to undo the damage done by the Clintons.

      we should work to defeat any candidate who steals the Democratic nomination.

      by catchaz on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:00:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Diary rec'd because of its importance. n/t (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    catchaz, Shhs, RoCali, irackobama

    It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious. ~ Oscar Wilde

    by 99 Percent Pure on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:59:14 AM PDT

  •  What Hillary has not taken into account (7+ / 0-)

    is the fact that the black community has been THE backbone of the modern Democrats. Every other group from the old 20th century coalition has bailed at least once--and sometimes entirely. The other stalwart group, intellectuals, has become watered down and unpredictable, but the black community has remained loyal to the Democrats. Sure individuals have drifted to the Republicans--but the communities have not. They have remained loyal not only to the party, but to the American ideals, even though they've been denied a place at the table over and over and over again.

    Somewhere a couple of weeks ago, there was a diary that used the recurring motif "We ain't comin'" [if Hillary is the nominee]. And maybe it's time the black community take heed of that diary and this one. If the party insists (although I no longer think that's going to happen) on nominating a manipulative politician who takes them for granted (and says "screw 'em" as she did to another part of the old coalition), the black community really owes it to themselves to bail. And it will be the end of the party. Sometimes anger is cleansing. Sometimes it's healthy. This is one of those times.

    •  Absolutely not. (0+ / 0-)

      That's dumb, that's cutting off your own nose to spite your face. Even if you think Hillary is using black voters as a tool of political need, well, she's gonna need the black vote to win the general, and she knows that.

      When the Christian Right says they'll stay at home rather than support McCain, nobody here says "Oh no, they'll have their voices heard in 4 years", they say "Haha, those idiots are going to throw the election."

      No matter WHAT happens between now and November, we cannot afford to be "those idiots" in 2008.

      if [MSM] covered Einstiens paper on relatively... the title would have been, "Einstein calls Newton a Bitch! Oh Snap!" -kingfishstew

      by amnesiaproletariat on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:04:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You don't get it (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        malharden, kpbuick, Shhs, RoCali

        I support a set of values, not a party just for the sake of it.

        If the party abandons my values, it is absolutely ludicrous to imagine that it should retain my support.

        And this:

        Even if you think Hillary is using black voters as a tool of political need, well, she's gonna need the black vote to win the general, and she knows that.

        I can't even comment on (trying to keep my number of troll ratings down).

        "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

        by GN1927 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:25:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Shhs, Alohilani

          "If the party abandons my values, it is absolutely ludicrous to imagine that it should retain my support."

          I sort of glossed over "American ideals" in my original reply. I am convinced that no group in this country is more committed to the belief in equality and opportunty and freedom--and certainly of HOPE-- than the black community. They're certainly not dedicated to making the almighty buck or to "elitism" or to wars of aggression and suppression. Nor are they distracted by a belief in their own superiority. They've hung in there and hoped for equality and justice--and voted for the Democrats in that hope--for generations. But if ignored long enough, anyone stands up and says "enough." If those values are once again betrayed by a governing group... That's my point. It is much deeper and more serious than indvidual Hillary supporters saying they won't vote for Obama--or vice versa. It's about the values America has espoused--and betrayed, over and over. Individual freedom, equality under the law, justice...

          I share those values--and therefore I have always been a Democrat. But the day the party leaves me on these values, I leave it.  

        •  a presidential candidate that you don't like (0+ / 0-)

          is not the abandonment of your values unless the party platform has somehow changed. You have to think of a Republican President's impact on Congress. 4 years is a long time in American politics, think of all the scandals we've had - if your values don't extend to keeping a guy who admits to not knowing anything about the economy out of the White House... there's no argument to be made.

          This isn't about punishing a politician or a party, not at the federal level.

          if [MSM] covered Einstiens paper on relatively... the title would have been, "Einstein calls Newton a Bitch! Oh Snap!" -kingfishstew

          by amnesiaproletariat on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:49:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Used by Clinton vs. Ignored by McCain? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kpbuick, Shhs, velvet blasphemy

        I'm struggling to find a difference between them, as an AA.

        If I vote my personal Economics, that makes me a Repub, so don't go there....

        Hillary the nominee MIGHT get my vote because I've got a lot of family in the miliary and I want them home. But Dammit I'd be holding my nose and mad as hell to pull that lever for her.

        That some of you think this calculation should be so obvious for AA Dems is absolutely infuriating.

        And no, the Supreme Court argument doesn't seal it either. Many adult AAs see themselves as survivors. We will survive a hard-right Supreme Court as least as well as poor white folk will.

        John McCain: Like Hope, But Different.

        by malharden on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:33:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yea plus many don't agree w/abortion. n/t (0+ / 0-)

          Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

          by Shhs on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:44:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  There's no question (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Elise, Shhs, Alohilani

      that should Clinton be the nominee, despite Obama having the most delegates, most voters, most donors, most money, and just this energized and large cadre of volunteers and professionals who have created a campaign organization unmatched in its effectiveness and professionalism...

      ...then hell no I wouldn't support the Democratic party.  Best politician seen in years, but the Democratic party leadership lets a nomination contest go on and on and on, long after Obama earned an insurmountable lead.  The party has already lost credibility, already.

      If they run the black community (and liberal whites) out of this party with Clintonian shenanigans, there will be nothing holding the Democratic party back from full-scale, wholesale embrasure of the same crooked, right-wing thinking which produced the Iraq War.  That's if they ever manage to win another election.

      "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

      by GN1927 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:23:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  so McCain is preferable? (0+ / 0-)
  •  It's not the "Black vote" (1+ / 2-)
    Recommended by:
    milkbone
    Hidden by:
    malharden, catchaz

    It's just you.

    It's not about race for most of us, don't you get it?
    Despite your efforts, and that of other people like yourself, to make this in to what it isn't.

    Hillary Clinton would be a fine choice for President, as would Barack Obama. Both would be a President for all Americans, and will help us back onto the right path.

    President McCain is not an option.

    You, and others, in their zealour fanatical drive to elect Barack Obama have lost your perspective, deluded yourselves and demonized Sen. Clinton to defend your crazed devotion to your candidate and to excuse any part he may have had (equal share, at least) in lowering the level of this campaign.

    Every core demographic in our party is important. Each has a voice, and a role to play. We need the whole damn big tent to show if we have a chance to win.

    But you know, if we have to do it without a few of the fanatics, I'm willing to take our chances.

    Just like the folks over at MyDD who say they would never vote for Obama... we don't need you.

    Don't let the tent door hit you in the ass on your way out, the rest of us have work to do.

    "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

    by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:11:49 AM PDT

    •  Again this comment in insulting. (7+ / 0-)

      You, and others, in their zealour fanatical drive to elect Barack Obama have lost your perspective, deluded yourselves and demonized Sen. Clinton to defend your crazed devotion to your candidate and to excuse any part he may have had (equal share, at least) in lowering the level of this campaign.

      I don't necessarily agree w/the end result (not voting for HRC). However, you are not even trying to put your self in our shoes.  WE feel used, we feel like our dignity our churches have been shat on for political gain.  We don't have anyone else to vote for and that's depressing. It's not about Obama, hell a lot of people I know at church don't really feel him all that much but that hate the disrespect and the patronizing way we've been treated.

      Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

      by Shhs on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:15:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  and the thing is (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sychotic1, Elise, Shhs, velvet blasphemy

        the electorate will still rally around the nominee anyway, even black folks. Look at the Clarkies and the Deaniacs and the Gore people in 2004--we still came out in record numbers (but sadly, it wasn't enough.) But I suspect that if she gets the nomination, that support may be lukewarm at best. we'll still vote for her, but beyond that...well she shouldn't have run the campaign the way she did after South Carolina.

        She should start making serious amends now if she wants the same enthusiastic support that Obama will get should he get the nomination. That's if she gets the nomination.

        Central PA Kossacks"Obama can hope all over me!" Si se fucking puede!

        by terrypinder on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:18:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I don't see the disrespect. (0+ / 0-)

        Honestly... that is my issue.
        I'm not Black.
        (Well, not as far as I knew growing up, being adopted and all, and by the time I found out about my very mixed ancestry I was grown. Let's just say there are lots of racial slurs that I could take offense at, if I chose.)
        I'm not very churchy.
        (Although I do consider myself very spiritual, I have very little regard for dogmatic, organized religion. I'm pretty used to people (usually good, churchgoing christians) showing outright contempt for my religious practices. So while I am sympathetic, I really can't get too worked up over that either.)
        Racially, Culturally, Spiritually, Sexually and in other ways... I am a minority.
        Out on the fringe, some might say.
        And you know what?
        Guess who I get the most shit from?

        Welcome to the damn club. This is the kind of shit I expect the Democrats to stop, not to make worse.

        I think this is being blown out of proportion,
        Like everything else in this fucking race.

        That's my issue.

        "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

        by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:08:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  its the "racist" vote (6+ / 0-)

      Clinton is making an all-out play for the racist vote, by using racits tacttics. and ANY WHITE PERSON  who asks Black people to vote for a candidate that slurs them in a racist manner is also behaving in a racist manner.

      Niniane, your insistence that Black people who have pride in their race and don't want to support a candidate who openly and directly insults them and their church are "fanatics" is just disgusting.  

      I will NEVER vote for a candidate who uses racism to win votes.

      we should work to defeat any candidate who steals the Democratic nomination.

      by catchaz on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:17:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The "Racist" vote? (0+ / 0-)

        WTF are you talking about?

        Oh, I see, the white racist vote.

        Because black people cannot possibly be racists, right?
        I wonder... if there were such a thing as a black racist, who would they be voting for?
        And who might be pandering to that vote?

        Whose interests are best served in blowing the racial aspect of this so out of proportion.

        Just a hypothetical, you see... because we all know that there isn't any such thing.

        Niniane, your insistence that Black people who have pride in their race and don't want to support a candidate who openly and directly insults them and their church are "fanatics" is just disgusting.

         

        Openly and openly insults them and their church?

        Bullshit. No matter how Team Obama spins it, reality says otherwise.

        I'm a little disgusted with you too. But at least you had the decency to comment explaining your bullshit HR... unlike so many of your peers.

        That's something anyway.

        "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

        by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:38:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes Blacks always vote for Blacks (0+ / 0-)

          that why in Ohio we have Gov. Blackwell (rolls eyes).

          Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

          by Shhs on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:39:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's not about that at all. (1+ / 2-)
            Recommended by:
            RenMin
            Hidden by:
            arielle, malharden

            I'm not seeing this as racial, at all.

            It's just a symptom of the level of bullshit that has been thrown about in this cycle.

            From where I sit, it looks as if the Obama Campaign has cynically and ruthlessly manipulated the racial dynamic to gain advantage, making much bigger issues of race than reality would agree with, then shrewdly sidestepping and deflecting all the blame in Clinton's direction.

            The Obama campaign has made the campaign into a Black vs. White thing... at least, from my point oof view.

            And I'm damned pissed about it.

            But you know what? He is still better than John McCain. So no matter how disappointed I am in him... I will still vote for him.
            Despite his contempt for Dr. King's dream... he is still better than Sen. McCain.

            And I will vote for him... and he probably won't be a bad President... And hopefully the racial divisions that his campaign (not his candidacy, which is very different) have caused will be easily healed.
            But I doubt it.

            "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

            by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:54:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I can't let you say this... (7+ / 0-)

              "Despite his contempt for Dr. King's dream... "

              I won't have it.

              John McCain: Like Hope, But Different.

              by malharden on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:56:36 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  What happened to free speech? (0+ / 0-)

                Even though I strongly disagree with the comment in question, it is inappropriate to troll rate a comment just because you disagree with it.  There is nothing abusive or troll-like about that comment.  Therefore I recommended it.

                "At least the war on the environment is going well."

                by RenMin on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:08:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  But do you understadn how this comment (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Eternal Hope, Elise, malharden, LynneK

              from where I sit, it looks as if the Obama Campaign has cynically and ruthlessly manipulated the racial dynamic to gain advantage, making much bigger issues of race than reality would agree with, then shrewdly sidestepping and deflecting all the blame in Clinton's direction.

              The Obama campaign has made the campaign into a Black vs. White thing... at least, from my point oof view.

              And I'm damned pissed about it.

              Can be viewed as patronizing by many AA's on this board?  Many of us saw racism injected on our own accord, and on our own accord, we contacted Dean and the supers.  It had nothing to do w/talking heads.  We do think for ourselves.  I know a few ppl who once raised money for the Clintons, who were big Clinton supporters, and then after SC they became angry and disillusioned.  These are professionals who don't have time to watch TV talking heads, and they certainly weren't getting Obama emails.  

              Please Niniane try to put your self in our shoes, we do have minds of our own, we can think for our selves.

              Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

              by Shhs on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:57:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Where do you get this? (6+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Eternal Hope, mcfly, Elise, malharden, LynneK, Shhs

              Despite his contempt for Dr. King's dream...

              Where?

              Consign corporatism to the dankest crypt, and assign justice to the highest crag. For a More Perfect Union.

              by Alohilani on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:00:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  No, the Obama campaign hasn't made this into a (8+ / 0-)

              black white thing. You're looking for someone to blame and maybe it's your own apathy towards people who don't experience life in the same way you do. We are not colorblind, have never been. It's only 40 years after the civil rights movement. We have people in our families who weren't able to vote. This isn't history to us, this is the present. We have living legacies to the cruelty of America in our families.

              What about your own racial manipulation? The idea that blacks can be so easily manipulated is in itself the manipulation of white fears. Clinton has played it well. What about the idea that we weren't thinking about race or gender until "someone had to go and bring it up". Do you really think that people who are not the majority, don't know they aren't the majority?

              His campaign didn't cause these divisions. They were already there, perhaps you should try listening to that truth. He didn't make Geraldine Ferraro say he was an affirmative action candidate, he didn't make Hillary Clinton pander at the State of The Black Union (which look it up, it was on CSpan), he didn't make her misspeak about MLK Jr's contributions to the civil rights movement.

              We will never heal as long as you think that it's the fault of people who recognize race for recognizing race.

            •  I believe you have this backwards (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LynneK, Shhs, Alohilani

              Obama is trying to bridge the divide, to heal the nation by focussing on what we as humans have in common. The Clinton campaign exploits the weaknesses in our society.

              •  I agree (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                anotherCt Dem

                The problem, though, is that people who "have" race are often seen as "wielding" race--and to their advantage. It is a weird reversal of the power dynamic. "Their" guilt becomes "our" problem ("their" encompassing any identified group that is considered outside the "norm", i.e., "the gay agenda")

            •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LynneK

              From where I sit, it looks as if the Obama Campaign has cynically and ruthlessly manipulated the racial dynamic to gain advantage

              I suspect that you are sitting in a corner somewhere all by yourself.

              I'm pretty sure it wasn't Obama who brought up Louis Farrakhan and Rev Wright in an attempt to paint him as an angry black man.

              "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

              by cometman on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:52:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Black people (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Shhs, Alohilani, irackobama

          have been voting for whites all of our lives, those who haven't, haven't been voting. So to say otherwise is just insulting.  BTW, do you really think you can insult people into seeing your point of view?

          "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." -Plato

          by Snickers77 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:49:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, it was an open insult to the church (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Elise, malharden, kpbuick, Shhs, RoCali

          But the problem here is that people like you and other progressive people who have little or no ties to what others would consider a community can't understand this and that's what Hillary is playign on.

          This is why the Democrats constantly lose when it comes to faith. They do not understand that one does not abandon community. No one goes it alone, there are no rugged individualists. It's the same as so many of you who rail against racism, sexism, and classism in online lives and off who would never for a second tell your grandparents to be quiet. Who haven't told your bosses to shut up for exhibiting these isms, who haven't corrected friends who don't agree with your at a fundamental core. The same for HRC who did not abandon her husband.

          But her willingness to exploit this is indeed an attack on black faith(and on average people) and it's not about what she intends to do, it's about what it's perceived as her doing. I think it will be important for liberals to recognize that sometimes it's not about party allegiance, because to be honest many black people are socially conservative and were raised with socially conservative ideals that might actually line up with the Republican party, if it weren't for the ideas that they harbor about people of color.

          I mean your average person doesn't go around everyday wearing a sign or voicing their political opinions or openly disagreeing with people they are in opposition to. No one wants to be seen as a whiner so even when we disagree we suck it up and any person reading this knows that there have been moments within their own lives where this has happened.

          •  Preach! n/t (0+ / 0-)

            Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

            by Shhs on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:52:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I am an openly (0+ / 0-)

            lesbian(***) multi-racial Witch.
            I get the whole "community" thing, k?

            I guaran-fucking-tee I get more "open disrespect", than most people can comprehend, most of it from "good Christians".

            I get it. I do.

            I can't not support someone just because they "disrespect" who I am... because if I did, Obama would have to do without it. Clinton too, probably.

            Obama has disrespected the gay community time and again. Clinton hasn't done much better.
            And what if I asked them  how they felt about my religious practices?
            If they said they were ok with them, most of you "good church-going Christians" would get pissed.

            I get the outrage. I live there... but I have a hell of a lot more to be outraged at than you do, and probably at you as well.

            But I know I have to be better than that.
            And you should too.

            (***) currently in a monogamous hetero relationship... so I get it from my within my "community" too.

            "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

            by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:29:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  But what if ppl told you that Obama (0+ / 0-)

              hadn't disrespected the gay community, what if people told you that it was made up or all in your head, or that you were just doing what you were told.  Or what if someone told you the gay community will always be there so it doesn't really matter?  That's more of our points.

              Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

              by Shhs on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:36:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Very good points. (0+ / 0-)

                And I went out of my way to give him the benefit of the doubt.
                Marriage? Sacrificed on the altar of political expediency, I told myself... until it became clear that "marriage" wasn't an issue that Obama really agreed with. Unions, maybe, but marriage? Never.

                The whole McLurkin thing? I assumed that he was just that out of touch... but when he failed to denounce McLurkin and the whole "Ex-Gay" bullshit, it became clear.

                There are some valid issues with regard to race and the conduct of the Clinton campaign, as well as the conduct of the Obama campaign.

                Both have created racial divisions in the name of electoral success. Both. Both. Both.

                But ObamaNation cannot admit that one simple fact. Instead it is easier to see it as all Hillary's fault, and that is simply delusional... and fanatical, and likely racist in itself.
                well, you said you have to call it out before you can fix it, right?
                Now what can we do to fix it?

                "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

                by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:18:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well for one (0+ / 0-)

                  you can stop being patronizing.

                  Proof that Obama created racial divisions. Because as history will easily prove to you racial divisions have existed in this country since before the invention of "race" as we now know it.

                  I understand that people really enjoy the idea of "fair blame", for things but in this there is no fair blame. He has not said to black people, "I'm going to need you to win this, and only you can do it for me."

                  As Hillary has done with her gendered appeal to women, and I don't disagree with this appeal. But, he could never do that if he wants to be seen as being non-racial.

                  This a fundamental issues of difference, "well, you said you have to call it out before you can fix it, right?
                  Now what can we do to fix it?"

                  There victim of the crime does not have the same responsibility of the person who actually committed the crime.

                  Show me the divisions he created which weren't there before. Show me how he forced Hillary's, Geraldine's and Bill's hands.

                  You can't. And I'm not part of the ObamaNation because to be honest I have no allegiance to Obama or the Democratic party. My view is much the same as Cornell West's, I will be his strongest critic should he get into office.

                  •  Jesse Jr. (0+ / 0-)

                    National Campaign Chair... remember him?

                    Tell me he wasn't race baiting with his comments.

                    We saw something very clever in the last week of this campaign coming out of Iowa, going into New Hampshire, we saw a sensitivity factor. Something that Mrs. Clinton has not been able to do with voters that she tried in New Hampshire.
                    Not in response to voters -- not in response to Katrina, not in response to other issues that have devastated the American people, the war in Iraq, we saw tears in response to her appearance. So her appearance brought her to tears, but not hurricane Katrina.

                    Hurricane Katrina... a clear racial reference, as the worst victims of Katrina were impoverised Blacks.

                    Innocent Victim? Not by a long shot. How much blame is subject to opinion, but do not deny that there is plenty to share.

                    "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

                    by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 01:12:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  No you don't get the community thing.. (0+ / 0-)

              Being a witch is in no way the same thing as being black. You can't guarantee that to me because I definitely understand, but as an openly black lesbian about how she receives that and she's going to have a different answer for you. An answer that you might not like because she may feel she doesn't belong in the lesbian community, or the Wiccan community as these are overly dominated by white people. Communities are made up of people, and people have prejudices.

              So, even now in your defense you're trying to show that you get this, you don't get it. I'm not a church going Christian. In fact, I'm not Christian at all. I would say that I am not religious, except that I do pray to my ancestors and I ask for them to guide me.

              I get the outrage. I live there... but I have a hell of a lot more to be outraged at than you do, and probably at you as well.

              This is called the oppression olympics, and no you don't because you have no idea about my background and you have no idea about the black community, black same gender loving communities, or knowing you're other from the beginning and not finding out about it one day. Let's not play the oppression olympics. I'm biracial not a white/other mix, but of two POC mixes. So I think we can quit it with the "I have it harder" campaign you're running on right now.

              And no, I don't know I have to be better than that because I don't view the world as a polarized discussion of angry/not angry, happy/bitter, or christian/non-christian. You need to adjust your argument for not who you think you're arguing against, but in reading my responses who you're actually arguing against. One can be outraged and be productive. This is not an either/or equation.

              •  but as an openly black lesbian about (0+ / 0-)

                should be, "but ask an openly black lesbian about". Still don't get it, let me point you to some books, articles and posts that belie even in subcultures people have racial conflicts.

              •  It's tribalism, plain and simple (0+ / 0-)

                and we've seen conflict after conflict internationally, where tribalism renders a population submissive to a set of living conditions to which they would not otherwise submit.

                Obama's campaign isn't really a post-racial campaign, as if he somehow posits himself as beyond the racism in this country, or as someone whose presidency will fix racism in this country.  

                It's really a anti-tribalist campaign: one which is very deliberately, openly and forcefully pushing that omnipresent tribalism into the background in order to unite disparate swaths of the population in a reform coalition.

                Clinton, in order to stop these anti-tribalist tactics, has attempted to reinforce tribalism, promote it as a central component of voters' decisions.  The reaction (rage from black voters) isn't a surprise to her, because she knows what she's doing.  She's gambling with multiple Democratic party constituencies, and doesn't care.  The only remaining question is whether a significant enough percentage of the Democratic party leadership is similarly disdainful of anti-tribalist tactics.

                [Geez, how many times can use tribal in one comment :-)]

                "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

                by GN1927 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:58:14 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Well said. (0+ / 0-)

                But really off the mark.
                No, being a Witch is not the same as being Black.
                No more than neing Black is the same being a lesbian.
                Same, no. Do they share similarities in terms of how others view them? Could be...

                There is no polarization in my world anymore.

                There hasn't been in quite a while... where most people see black/white, I see gray, and no, that has nothing to do with race.

                It isn't about the oppression olympics, either.
                I have it worse than some, easier than others.

                Sucks to be all of us, sometimes... but the important thing to remember is that no one has an exclusive on being disrespected, oppressed and discriminated against.
                We are all in this together.
                When one of us is targeted, we all have to rise up together.
                It just ain't happening.
                The mainstream LGB community threw the T under the bus. Most Black Christians would vote against my right to marry, to adopt children and to practice my religion... if given a choice. So would most White Christians, as well.

                So how far have we really really come?
                And is Obama the one to take us further? I sure hope so... but if iI had any faith in Hope, I would already be on the team, wouldn't I?

                "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

                by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:30:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Wait a minute (0+ / 0-)

                  I wasn't off the mark at all do you not understand that you actually played the oppression olympics in your post. I will point these examples out for you if you will not take responsibility for them.

                  You tried to say that you have it harder, and you're not outraged even though you have a lot to be outraged about. I correctly pointed out there is no comparison and there is not one way to react to being oppressed or in a marginalized situation. I'll need you to acknowledge that instead of talking past me and pretending that somehow you were saying what I was saying.

                  There is no polarization in my world anymore.

                  But there is obvious polarization in your world as evidenced by your comments. Did you not read what you wrote to me? I'm not trying to be mean to you at all, but you're really off the mark here.

                  So how far have we really really come?
                  And is Obama the one to take us further? I sure hope so... but if iI had any faith in Hope, I would already be on the team, wouldn't I?

                  That's not really my hope. The best Barack Obama can do is to actually become the platform for these groups. He cannot take on the oppression that he does not know (like Hillary), he cannot take on their anger an outrage. He cannot become disingenuous in pretending he knows what it's like suffer in that way just because he suffers from one form of oppression. I understand this. I have no hope of him being the savior of the party, no politician can do that. What he is doing is creating an environment where people are even willing to listen to these discussions. He didn't do it on his own, but we might get some things sorted out if there are more calls to talk about that.

                  Plus, Barack went into a black church (a very large and prominent one) and spoke to a black audience about homophobia. That's pretty serious. He has two SGL pastors who support him.

                  My draw isn't the hope, I'm fairly cynical. My draw is the pragmatist in him. This person who understands that demonizing racists isn't the answer, that there are gay Christians, that there is black homophobia, that there are white working class issues, but that he doesn't attack any of these things as his being his enemy, but understands it for what it is. These are human conditions.

    •  You truly have nerve calling others crazy (7+ / 0-)

      because your comment has very little relation to reality or to the seriousness of this problem.

      20-30% of African Americans stay home, 15% vote GOP, and the Democratic party will never win another national election.

      This is not due to a fanatical, or zealous, or otherwise insane attachment to a candidate.

      It's about self-respect.

      "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

      by GN1927 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:28:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You forget Clinton has the most important (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Elise

        voting group.  Hillary's voters matter more than anyone else.  They are people who matter!  Their concerns for the country matter more!

        Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

        by Shhs on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:30:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Okay Shaddap, Jerk. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Elise, Shhs, Alohilani

      If, in your book, we either rubber-stamp whoever the Dem nominee is, or we're "fanatics", then you're clearly an idiot.

      It's political extortion for a candidate to batter a constituency using the calculus that we have nowhere to run and no other party to escape to.

      For you to willfully ignore that says plenty about YOU.

      John McCain: Like Hope, But Different.

      by malharden on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:37:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And it is also political extortion to (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shhs

        threaten to take your ball and go home if you don't get your way.

        And it's cowardly as hell.
        We have a country to save here... if you don't have the stomach for it, stay the fuck out of the way.

        Ignorance is allowing the Republicans another term, with the SCOTUS appointments, Iraq, the economy and all the other shit going on today... period, for any reason or justification.

        The Democratic brand is what we have to work with at the moment folks. Its all we got. We have to make it work... regardless.

        In four years, hopefully we will have other options, but till then, we have to work with what we have. That's We.
        All of us.
        Because the alternative is too terrible to contemplate.

        "As God is my witness, I thought wingnuts could fly"

        by Niniane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:44:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually it's not political extortion. (4+ / 0-)

          Because my vote has been characterized as one that does not matter to the Clinton campaign. If it doesn't matter, why should they care if I withhold it?

          And, if the superdelegates hand her the nomination, they clearly don't care for my vote either. What's more, as a Virginian (much like Teacherken stated a couple of weeks ago) HRC's campaign has written off my very purple state, so my vote is irrelevant to the party if it's superdelegates would rather be led by HRC.

          Let me be perfectly clear here. I will not support the Democratic "brand" if that same brand is okay to diminish and endanger decades of societal gains made in order to allow an insider candidate to capture the election.

          I care more about THE COUNTRY than the Democratic "brand".

          Sue me.

          John McCain: Like Hope, But Different.

          by malharden on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:50:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Too many people (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Elise, malharden, kpbuick, Shhs, Alohilani

          have fought, were lynched, and died to give me my right to vote.  They did not give me the right to SOLEY vote for the democratic party.  I got the right to vote for who was best for me, my morals, my family, and my country.  I don't see Hillary Clinton lining up with those ideals. Because me, and my family are Black, and if you can dis, and dismiss us once, you can do it, and will do it again.  To ignore that fact would be IGNORANT.  My mom taught me that you teach people how to treat you.  If you allow people to treat you wrong, one time, they will continue to do it.  

          "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." -Plato

          by Snickers77 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:59:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Do you get at all (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Shhs, Alohilani

          That the black community has waited patiently for generations for equality and justice? SO HAVE I! And I'm white. What is another four years after centuries?  My ancetors got to Jamestown the same year the first black slaves did. I have ancestors who fought in the Revolution and in the Civil War (yeah, on both sides) for "liberty and justice for all."  After all that time, what is another four years???? I will vote for my beliefs and values. It has nothing to do with shallow things like "cultism" or one particular candidate. The Clintons do not uphold my values. They used whole groups of people to their own ends, some white, some black. You yourself are being manipulated into thinking this is all about race. It has nothing to do with race. It has to do with American values and ideals--and trying to make them reality.

        •  I couldn't disagree more (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          malharden, Alohilani

          Exortion involves using coercion to take something from another which that person owns in the first place.

          Blind, near-total loyalty to the Democratic party to the tune of 90+% votes every election is not something owned by or owed to a party which refuses to run the winning, and superlative, candidate as its nominee.

          I don't owe any politician a freaking thing.

          This party can run its AUMF candidate despite Obama winning every measurable aspect of the nomination contest save the votes of party elite, but please do not be surprised at the resulting damage.

          And no one supporting a candidate who enabled Bush at his worst ("9-11, 9-11, 9-11" Iraq War) need tell me what I better do or not do for this party in fear of the big bad GOP.

          The fact that we're even having to have this conversation is problematic; should Clinton be nominated at this point, I'd seriously argue that the Democratic party cannot serve as the engine for the types of reforms this country needs.

          "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

          by GN1927 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:36:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There for a minute (0+ / 0-)

            I thought you were disagreeing with me--a surprise, since you and I have agreed lockstep down this board!  :) Glad to see it was to "extortion"--another of those manipulative tools--if you don't vote my way,it's because you're extorting... Yeesh.

            I'll ditto your second and last paragraph word for word.

            •  LOL (0+ / 0-)

              These parent-reply threads really do get confusing!

              Totally agree that it is highly manipulative to characterize refusal to support a candidate for substantive reasons as "extortion."  I thought your comment above mine was truly excellent.

              "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

              by GN1927 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:02:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  The most intelligent thing (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    malharden, Shhs, Alohilani

    that George Bush has said in the 7 years that he has been president was the statement that he made to the urban league in 2004.  He said

    Does the Democrat party take African American voters for granted? It's a fair question. I know plenty of politicians assume they have your vote. But do they earn it and do they deserve it?

     I never thought that it was actually an issue until this election.  The Clinton's have masterfully played on the fears of "racist" white Americans to garner votes.  They have dismissed the votes of the AA community as simply voting for race.  They believe that we are stupid and if we vote for them after that, we are.  I know there are many issues to consider including the war...but there is also the consideration of our children, and how do we explain to our children that they have to deal with a few more years of people fearing black folks because we decided to choose the lesser of two evils (the one who ran a campaign on saying that that's acceptable).  I do not think this because somebody told me to believe it.  I am a college educated BLACK WOMAN, and I have been one my entire life...I know the racist dog whistle.  I have seen it and I have felt it.  To those who dismiss me as delusional obviously have not walked in my shoes.

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." -Plato

    by Snickers77 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:26:00 AM PDT

    •  Sad thing is many Clinton supporters (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Alohilani

      (not all of course) but many have brought into that meme, and even spout it off at the drop of a hat.

      We need to change.  We should make both parties fight for our votes.

      Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

      by Shhs on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:27:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And people are fooling themselves (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Shhs, Alohilani

      if they think the GOP won't make hay over this.  If the GOP can even marginally increase it's traditional 10% of the black vote, it's lights out for the Democratic party.

      "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

      by GN1927 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:31:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But really a lot of Clinton (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        malharden, Alohilani

        Supporters don't care.  They think we "whine" too much.  See up-thread.  We aren't real people to them, we are just a group.  We are nameless faceless Obama cultist or race baiters.

        Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

        by Shhs on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:38:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They are following a leader (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Alohilani

          who is leading them off of a cliff.  I'm not surprised that those backing Clinton have little of substance to say in her defense.

          "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

          by GN1927 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:44:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  We should rec this up, this is the kinda (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    malharden, RoCali

    of discussion about race and faith that we need to have.

    Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

    by Shhs on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:30:33 AM PDT

  •  Once again, it's not just about Black voters. (4+ / 0-)

    There are many honest-hearted people who will not vote for HRC, after the racist crap that she has pulled.  My husband, who's Hispanic, wanted to sue her for slander, when she and her surrogates said that Hispanics would not for a an AA.  He said that he would actively support a progessive challenger for her Senate seat.  So would I.  I'm Hawaiian-Italian, and I am deeply offended by this shit.  The Clintons can go to hell.

    Consign corporatism to the dankest crypt, and assign justice to the highest crag. For a More Perfect Union.

    by Alohilani on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:40:13 AM PDT

    •  Very true (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      malharden

      Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

      by Shhs on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:42:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's the old British way (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      malharden, Alohilani

      Divide and Conquer.  Create animosity where there is none, or exasperate it where there is a little.

      Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

      by Shhs on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:43:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Excellent point (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Shhs, Alohilani

      and frightening.  Because those likely to withdraw support are also those who seem to be the anti-imperialist stalwarts who have kept this party from going completely over the edge alongside the GOP.  I don't think whatever powers that be have a full grasp of the seriousness of this situation.

      "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

      by GN1927 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:03:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The biggest problem is that Hillary doesn't (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shhs

    believe she's done any lasting damage.

    She's wrong...but she wouldn't figure that out until it was too late.

    Of course, she won't be the nominee...so I'm not worried.

  •  This is a pointless, destructive diary (0+ / 0-)

    When diaries and comments are posted to this effect, at this point, I have to suspect motives and agendas.

    "......" -- Harpo Marx

    by BobzCat on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:32:12 AM PDT

    •  Did you read any of the comments? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RoCali

      Jeez people are pouring out their feelings, their heart and souls, and you just dismiss it bc you don't agree?  I don't agree w/some of it, but still!

      Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

      by Shhs on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:34:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  How many times do we have to do this? (0+ / 0-)

        This is only the umpteenth "I'm not voting for [Obama or Clinton] in the general election" diary I've seen here in the past few months, along with even more comments to that effect.

        To me, they're fundamentally and intentionally divisive. In my perception, this kind of "pouring out hearts and souls" in this context, at this point, is not far from needlessly masturbating over the same topic over and over.

        But that's just my view. I can see how it may still be necessary for some folks to keep doing this, publicly, repeatedly, obsessively.

        But I can also see how playing up the divisions between Clinton and Obama, and hardening each candidate's supporters against the other's, plays well into a strategy of demoralizing Democratic voters, suppressing Democratic turnout in the fall, and dampening enthusiasm for the nominee.

        From that perspective, this kind of diary runs counter to the goal of getting Democrats elected in the fall. In my opinion.

        "......" -- Harpo Marx

        by BobzCat on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:48:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's not about that, (0+ / 0-)

          This diary is more about race an religion and people coming to terms w/what that means.  There are good discussions in this diary.

          Did you know that Obama is responsible for everything ever uttered by a black person and any supporter? Obama-Taking on the sins of the world since 1/03/08.

          by Shhs on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:56:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  This is about revolution... (0+ / 0-)

          Far more important that who wins the next election. Read!  Some of us are very angry at politicians of any stripe who use others--any others. We are tired of ALL of the crap.

    •  I see it so differently (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Elise, Shhs

      this is a warning.  Feelings like those expressed in this diary aren't confined to a website.  This is advance warning, not extortion, not a threat, or any other silly characterization: it's a warning that some unknown portion of the Democratic party has serious objections to the Clinton campaign which go so far beyond mere partisanship, that the party can potentially suffer a lack of party support from key constituencies should the superdelegates choose to run Clinton's campaign over Obama's.

      I know the site's about electing Dems, but this is not mere candidate posturing or nonsense.

      "...yet condemn you when you say be non-violent towards little brown Vietnamese children" - MLK

      by GN1927 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:44:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Motive and Agenda? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kpbuick

    Wow, this is my first diary, and I'm happy to see it's spurring some debate.  It's interesting people think that if the Democratic Party decided to nominate Hillary I or people who think like me would go to McCain.  I would vote for Cynthia McKinney or Ralph Nader as my choice if the party were to nominate Hillary.  

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