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This primary race can be shortened into one phrase:  It's the Women, Stupid!  Not the African Americans, not the Hispanics, not the Independents, not the young or the old. Women.

It is obvious that the race between the first Woman and the first African American candidate is an historic one. However, there seems to have been far greater emphasis placed on the voting public's reaction to a black candidate compared to a woman. Elton John's claims aside, there is little evidence that gender has occupied the media narrative to anything approaching the degree that race has.  However, an intriguing analysis suggests that, in fact, gender loyalty is a strong part of the division between Hillary and Obama voters.  Jonathan Tilove take a look at the question here.

...an analysis of the Pennsylvania results indicates that Obama's trouble may not be so much with white or white working-class voters generally, but with white women. And their overwhelming preference for New York Sen. Hillary Clinton may have less to do with any resistance to the prospect of a first black president, and more to do with their powerful desire to see the equally history-making election of a first woman president.

Tilove goes on to explain...

the exit polls found, 14 percent of the Pennsylvania electorate were women who said that the candidates' gender was important in deciding how to vote. Clinton won that group by 77 percent to 23 percent. Bositis said that means those voters accounted for 7.6 percentage points of her overall advantage over Obama, or 82 percent of her total victory margin of 9.2 percentage points.

In short, women are keeping Clinton in this race.

To look at this a little closer, I exmained MSNBC's exit poll data from 28 primary races - 13 Clinton wins and 15 Obama wins.  I looked at the impact of the gender and race for each candidate. In this chart, the state is one the left, followed by percentage of women who voted in that race.  Next is the % won by Clinton (C) and Obama (O) followed by the net gain in points.  The same analysis is shown for African American (AA) voters. The last column shows the final margin of victory.  Clinton wins are shown in the top chart, Obama wins in the bottom.    

Chart

First, lets look at race. Obama won the majority of the African American vote in 22 races, Clinton won 0, and in 6 contests, the % of AA voters was very small or none.

* In the primaries that she won, Clinton lost an average of 6% points from African American voters to Obama. Obama received a majority of the black vote in 9 contests that Clinton won, suggesting that, unlike the female vote, winning the African American vote is not sufficient to win overall.  

* In the races where he won, African American voters contributed an average of 21 points. However, his overall average margin of victory was 36.3 points.  This means that about 55% of his winning margins can be attributed to his net gains among African American voters.

Next, gender. The winner of the majority of women's votes won the race in 27 out of 28 contests.  Only once did the primary winner lose the female vote - Obama won Connecticut even though 53% of women voted for Clinton.

* On average, net gains among women voters contributed 7.7 points to Obama's winning margins.

* Looking at Clinton's margins, a startling fact jumps out. in the races she has won, her net gains among women voters was an average of 13.6 points. Her margin of victory for these races is 13.4 points.  Clinton's wins can all be directly attributed to her net gain among women.

There are two important take-home messages.  First, only one race has been won where the winning candidate did not garner a majority of the female vote.  We can conclude, therefore, that to win the primary, one must win the majority of women's votes. The second interesting fact that these data show is that women are keeping Hillary in this race.

While probably not suprising, it is interesting to me to see the power women are exercising in this primary race.  In my opinion, this is likely to be the root of the strong opposition to Obama from Hillary supporters. Rather than race or even party politics, the desire of women to see a female President is perhaps stronger than people realize. And Clinton's defeat will go down very hard for her supporters.  These disapointed women will be the constitutiency that Obama will have to win back.  

Originally posted to TexasLiz on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:23 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Good point... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fromdabak, TexasLiz, BoiseBlue

      I'm sorry that after a couple of sleepless nights with sick kids I don't have the concentration to thoroughly go through the stats, but this is something I've agreed with for a while. I think Obama needs to come forward with a female VP as a strong statement to women that they will not be without a voice in his administration.
      (Note: I am a strong Obama supporter, and a feminist)

      Also, on possibly a more contentious note, if men in the MSM spoke about AA's the way they speak about women, they'd be out on their ears.
      eg:

      "I won't have any aggressive condiment passing in this house!" Marge Simpson

      by AussieJo on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:43:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why the fairy tale about this woman. (16+ / 0-)

        There are thousands smarter, and millions more sane and ethical.
        As a woman, I detest Hillary Clinton. She gives all women a bad name.

        Make that change.

        by barnowl on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:01:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I absolutely agree. (0+ / 0-)

          I agree wholeheartedly with you about her politics and her ethics, but those kinds of sexist smears demean all women. There's a reason that it's only the woman with the most famous of husbands being the nominee. If it truly was a level paying field, those smarter, more ethical, more experienced women would be in the race also. The fact that women are willing to settle for a candidate who is obviously second best shows their desperation to have female representation at the highest level. Don't you think?

          "I won't have any aggressive condiment passing in this house!" Marge Simpson

          by AussieJo on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:24:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  She gives all women a bad name? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fromdabak, pelagicray, AussieJo

          That is exactly the problem.  Try that statement as "Willie Horton gives all blacks a bad name" and you would see how offensive it is.  And I deeply apologize if I've offended anybody with that analogy.

          But it is exactly statements like that from Obama supporters that will cost you women's votes.  Do you get that you can't win if you are depending on disaffected Republicans or independents to carry you?  You actually need to reunite your base supporters.  Showing them respect will go a long way towards doing that.

          •  Yay! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            anonymousisawoman

            I was worried that sleep deprivation would stop me being able to make the point clearly enough - but this is just what I meant - thankyou :)

            "I won't have any aggressive condiment passing in this house!" Marge Simpson

            by AussieJo on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:34:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I do respect women. (0+ / 0-)

            Am one and have worked hard and achieved good things in my small sphere.
            I don't like women who expect to be forgiven for venomous, untruthful  attacks because I am a woman and that's the only way I can fight. It is my right.
            I don't like women who play the victim, who intimate that all criticism is in response to their femaleness. I will shed a few well placed tears to elicit sympathy and make my opponents look like bullies. It is my right.
            Women I admire, men I admire, for the same reason. Honesty, courage, intelligence, compassion, etc are the measures of human worth. I do not like whiny, manipulative, self serving people.

            Make that change.

            by barnowl on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 02:54:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I think that Hillary Clinton (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TexasLiz, orangeuglad

          is cementing the opinion that the Clinton family is corrupt to the core.  

          Consign corporatism to the dankest crypt, and assign justice to the highest crag. For a More Perfect Union.

          by Alohilani on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:48:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, jeez! (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        anonymousisawoman, TexasLiz, AussieJo

        OK, having now spent 10 minutes of my life watching that video, and seeing for the first time the way the MSM guys talked about her, I completely understand the "rabid" and thoroughly entrenched position of so many women!  (Not that I'm going there; I'm an Obama girl, myself).

        But, jeez!  What better way to get women to become extremely committed to her and protective of her than to have all those stupid men making all those horrible misogynistic comments about her due to gender?!?  Dumb, dumb, dumb!

        I'm disgusted!  (Though I don't think KO belongs in that video).

        A female for VP might go a long way to helping Obama with women...too bad Samantha Power made that terrible crack about Hillary -- while I'm inclined to agree with Ms. Power's assessment, that being made public kind of rules her out as a good VP choice.

        Obama's doing particularly well with one important demographic - voters.

        by orangeuglad on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:57:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm pretty sure Australian reporters/commentators (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          orangeuglad

          would lose their jobs if they spoke about women like that, so I was shocked to see it the first time myself. Made me really want to be a Hillary supporter (not enough to actually be one though!) From what I've read of Gov Kathleen Sebelius, she looks like a good vp.
          I sure hope Michelle's in Barack's ear about this...

          "I won't have any aggressive condiment passing in this house!" Marge Simpson

          by AussieJo on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 09:24:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I saw this too-- and there are some good points. (14+ / 0-)

    The other point is why is so much time speant asking why Obama can't win the white vote and no time is spent asking why Clinton can't win the black vote... the black vote is a real issue for her and no one is talking about it. Well a few people here are...

  •  White Women (18+ / 0-)

    The percent of white women is probably higher then even you report, since the "women" demographic also includes AA women who presumably Obama over performs in.

    It's ashame that women are in such a rush to break the highest glass ceiling that they couldn't wait until a better female candidate emerges.

    If I were a women, the last thing I'd want is the historic first women president to be partially preceived as has gotten in based on her husbands last name.

  •  This is pretty encouraging actually (12+ / 0-)

    This suggests that many of Clinton's hard supporters are voting FOR her rather than AGAINST Obama.  That's much easier to deal with, after the nominating process is over, than voters with hardened animosity toward Obama.

    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Ghandi

    by Triscula on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:35:14 PM PDT

  •  Don't you mean "older white" women (13+ / 0-)

    You should read BlackKos.  There they have a link to an excellent study that was published by In These Times.  States that has a small but sizable African American population then to favor Clinton.  This is probably due to race antagonism in these states.  Pennsylvania is demographically one of them.

    Everyone knew that Clinton was going to win Pennsylvania and Obama managed to whittle the win BELOW 10% -- unlike what has been reported in the media.

    Obama has done will with younger women of all races.

  •  I just don't get it (11+ / 0-)

    How did a woman who got where she is in large part by standing by her man through multiple very public adulteries become a feminist icon?

    She would seem to represent so much of what feminists want to get AWAY from!

    Barack Obama personifies the American dream

    by Jim in Chicago on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:41:25 PM PDT

    •  yes, but... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TexasLiz, orangeuglad, AussieJo

      while i agree with JiminChicago, i do understand why women want to vote for Clinton (and Blacks want to vote for Obama).

      Representation by someone who looks like you is important. this is a country run since its inception by white men. a government of white men, no matter how progressive, cannot speak for everyone. we NEED women office holders. we need Black office holders.

      and i agree with Triscula that the news that most women are voting FOR Clinton rather than against Obama, despite what the loudest of her supporters often claim, is very good news indeed.

      we should work to defeat any candidate who steals the Democratic nomination.

      by catchaz on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:47:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Agreed (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Psyche, teyigdhk, redtex, orangeuglad

      Made the point earlier. Maybe women just aren't thinking about it deeper then first female president..

      Perhaps a viral youtube video could remind women that Hillary is riding on her husbands coat tails a bit here... :)

      (not to diminish what she's accomplished, but she got her Senate seat and Presidential run largely based on her last name)

      •  I agree too (see above) (0+ / 0-)

        but I don't think demeaning Clinton is the way to persuade them. Many women would see her husband's fame as the only way for a woman to get to this level (or else we'd be seeing more of them), and arguing against that would just make women more determined to have female representation.

        "I won't have any aggressive condiment passing in this house!" Marge Simpson

        by AussieJo on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:30:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  From what I have seen, that's not the point.... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          latts, orangeuglad

          I have seen comments from many women who don't perceive Hillary as having gotten where she is because of her husband's coattails. They see her as the archetypal talented and intelligent women who put her own ambitions on hold to support her husband and her family. In their minds, Hillary would have gotten to this point long ago on her own if she hadn't had to support her no-good, cheatin' husband for 20 or 30 years.

          And then there is the other group who sums up their feelings like this: Men having been running things forever and they have totally screwed things up, so it's time to give a woman a chance.

          With that much invested in her, it is easy for these supporters to overlook the perceived flaws that are so glaring to the non-Clinton people.

          And while I disagree with those opinions 100%, I can't invalidate them either. The office of the presidency has a tremendous symbolic component.

          If William Ayers were a Republican...he'd have his own talk show on Fox News.

          by Azdak on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:54:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Azdak, good point but (0+ / 0-)

            I was speaking more of the perception. Many women may believe exactly what you outlined, but they can't deny the perception will be strong that HRC got where she is due to her husband...

            Also, I think women who believe what you wrote are rationalizing their own desire to have a women president asap (and I understand that, I would as well)

            I can't believe that they actually believe the most qualified and deserving women in recent history just happens to be married to the last president not named  Bush..

            Disclaimer: (as this is a potentially sensitive topic) This is a very generic hypothesis attempting to explain why women are voting so strongly for HRC, not an attempt to belittle her candidacy or qualifications in any way. I'm certain many women, just as men, have reasons to vote for HRC completely independant of gender, but one can't deny completely what the data is showing (similiar to the AA>Obama relationship)

            •  The data show, though, that Obama is (0+ / 0-)

              only getting about half of his margins of victory from AA voters. All of Clinton's margins are equaled by her net gains among women. She has only lost the female vote once and not wone while the opposite has happened with Obama 9 times.  Gender is a far bigger factor in this primary than race.

        •  I can think of plenty of women (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bornadem, TexasLiz, orangeuglad, Alohilani

          Who have reached the top of their profession -- inlcuding in government (e.g., two Supreme Court justices) -- even though their husbands weren't famous or powerful. So it is NOT the "only" way by a long stretch!

          Barack Obama personifies the American dream

          by Jim in Chicago on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:18:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  And Bush got his governorship and the (0+ / 0-)

        presidency based on his last name.

        Nepotism is not limited to spouses and the voting public does not seem to have too much of a problem with it.

    •  Actually, I think that's her selling point. (8+ / 0-)

      I mean, her base of women:  older, blue-collar, less educated, less liberal women -- these women are unlikely to self-identify as "feminist."  Nash McCabe (that Pennsylvania woman who asked at the debate why Barack "doesn't love the flag") is a Hillary supporter and I am quite sure she does not self-identify as "feminist."

      The fact is, this base of lower-income white women has something powerful in common with Hillary -- like her, they too have been disappointed with their men.  It's not a positive, "sisterhood is powerful" coalition; rather, I think it's a negative, "women should rule because men have wronged us" coalition.

      By the way, I'm a woman.  I had an illuminating conversation with my mother and grandmother (who supported Hillary but who have reluctantly accepted the fact that Obama is going to win this thing) and they both agreed that this sympathy with Hillary's troubles with Bill was at the root of their support for her.

    •  In the specific, I agree. But Hillary's (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AussieJo

      support is more in the general sense I think. She is the first potentially viable female candidate, period.

  •  I agree it will take some effort to win (5+ / 0-)

    some women voters back (like a female VP- Sibelius anyone?), but I think they will vote Democrat with enthusiasm so long as they see that Hillary just didn't win.  If she were to get the nomination without the pledged delegate lead I think the Democratic party would lose the African-American vote forever, and I would argue that to be more damaging to the party.  I think it works the same way in reverse.  African-Americans have never deserted the party in the past because the African-American candidate didn't win.  But imagine what they would do if the African-American candidate won by the "old" rules, but was disqualified by the "new" rules.  

    Your flag decal won't get you into heaven any more (but apparently it is required to get into the oval office)...

    by word player on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:43:01 PM PDT

    •  I agree (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      orangeuglad

      and I think that's why Obama, Pelosi etc are letting the race go on to the end of the primaries. Just as AA's need to know their votes are being heard, so do the women who've been striving for decades to have the chance to support a female candidate even if she's not the candidate they would prefer.

      "I won't have any aggressive condiment passing in this house!" Marge Simpson

      by AussieJo on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:33:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You Left Old Senior Citizens (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    object16, BoiseBlue

    In my view, the loyalty of senior citizens to Hillary is even more important than the female vote.  Arguably, the single female white vote is, along with the African American vote, totally Democratic and neither Barack nor Hillary will lose either one of those constituencies.  Both groups simply hate Republicans.

    However, the senior citizen vote is very large, with huge turnouts all the time, and is a swing vote.  Right now, they adore Hillary and give her massive pluralities just above everywhere.

    Polling shows that she will keep those margins against McCain.  However, if Barack is the nominee, he will lose millions of those senior citizen voters to McCain and it will cost Democrats the election.  How come nobody is talking about the senior citizen vote?

    Everyone focuses on youth, on African-American, on white working middle-class or on women.  

    The real swing vote here are retirees!!!!!!!

    •  That Shoud be "Left Out Senior Citizens" (0+ / 0-)
    •  Why? (0+ / 0-)

      Why do they adore Hillary so much, and why wouldn't they vote for Obama?

      Obama's doing particularly well with one important demographic - voters.

      by orangeuglad on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:54:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Okay - here you. (0+ / 0-)

      I only looked at 6 races this time - 3 C wins (PA, CA, MA) and 3 O wins (WI, VA, MO).

      Average net gain from 60+ for Clnton:   7.9 points

      Average net gain from 60+ for  Obama:  -6.9 points

      Of the 6 races, Clinton won the 60+ vote 5 times, including 2 races where she lost. Obama only won the 60+ vote in Virginia and lost in both WI and MO.

      To me, this tracks like race does for Obama. A reliable constitutiency, but not only that decides the outcome.  

  •  Yay women! Boo Clinton staying in race! n/t (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    oscarsmom, orangeuglad, Alohilani

    "Straw? No, too stupid a fad, I put soot on warts!" -Palindrome

    by pakaal on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:45:46 PM PDT

  •  Bitter experience? (13+ / 0-)

    As a 54 year old white professional woman, I too have been shocked at the number of women supporting HRC.  I know many more women like me that are supporting Barack but I can tell you from my experience here in North TX the HRC supporters are rabid. For many of us character still counts first.  And for those of us that did it on our creds and by working twice as hard as our male counterparts, HRC is NOT the woman we want to see in the White House.  But I suspect for many women that did not make it their support of HRC reflects years of pent up bitterness at perceived injustices (and yes, many of these are real as in equal pay issues, having to work twice as hard, etc).  The glares from many of them on the day of our primary as I stood out there with my BO sign was amazing.  They treated me like a traitor.  For most of us, character counts first but for many in this group it simply is seeing a woman in the WH regardless of how she gets there.  Women represent 54% of the vote and for this reason Barack is going to have to choose a woman as a running mate to get them back.  For them, he is the "man" that stole this from Hillary.  He won't get them all back given that it won't be HRC on the ticket with him but he will be able to appease enough of them so it won't hurt him too badly.

    •  Rabid! That is exactly the word! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KayCeSF, Alohilani

      I've been searching for the word to characterize that crazy emotional thing in the few women I know who are strongly supportive of Hillary, and that's it exactly!

      That, plus the odd comment "there won't be another woman I'd vote for as president for the rest of my life."   To which I can only say, "ReeeeeealllllY?"

      Obama's doing particularly well with one important demographic - voters.

      by orangeuglad on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:38:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Seniors (8+ / 0-)

    Actually Barack will have an easier time against McCain on the issues with the seniors than he will with the HRC women.  McCain wants to privatize social security, etc.  Once Obama is out there with his GE platform and strategy I suspect he will win over many in this group simply on issues.  The women for HRC are emotion driven and that group will be more difficult to deal with because it isn't rational.  Rather, they will view it as the same experience they've had too many times previously in their lives where some man took something away from them.  I believe Barack is well aware of this which is why he takes the pounding from HRC without striking back much.  

    •  Couldn't agree with you more... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      orangeuglad

      based on my own experience. Am a 70 yo white professional woman. Virtually all my women friends (mostly professional, diverse and of a variety of ages) made it under their own steam and are Obama supporters. The few women I'm aware of who are rabid Hillary supporters are older, stayed hooked up with men for better or worse and feel their lives were something of a disappointment. Their identification with Hillary is remarkable. They see her as a friend, a hero and a model. She's a "fighter." she never gives up, and keeps going like the Energizer Bunny. Aside from facing their own mortality and wanting to see a woman in the presidency before they die, they seem to see Hillary as a surrogate that will win for them and justify all the slings and arrows of misfortune that they've suffered. Her loss would be yet one more personal affront to them. (They've also tend to have a crush on Bill and would love to see him back in the WH.)

      The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. Bertrand Russell

      by Psyche on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:41:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ummm (13+ / 0-)

    Ain't I a woman?

    (Black aka African-American and in possession of female genitals).

    When you say "Women are keeping Clinton in the race" and the statistics demonstrate that Black women are voting in droves for Barack Obama, the subliminal message is:

    Black women aren't really women.  Since of course they aren't "keeping Clinton in the race" - they aren't voting for her in majority numbers.

    Since the facts are what they are, what you and all others who make this type of statement (a virtual constancy) REALLY mean to say is:

    WHITE women are keeping Clinton in the race.  (Asian women and Latinas and Native American women may also be a factor; but nobody has felt them important enough to look at demographically in this fight, so they might well not be "women" either - or they might, as it is defined in this diary.)

    I am SO tired of having part of my identity rendered invisible at the convenience of political pundits.  I am a woman.  Voting for Barack Obama this time around.  Yet that fact does not mean that my Blackness trumps and/or erases my gender.  Last time I checked, I still had neither a penis nor the power to go round with it.

    /sigh

    •  Well, I suppose you actually count twice (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      orangeuglad

      the data I was using was for all women and all African Americans. You would be in both.

    •  Dear sister (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      orangeuglad

      I'm sorry if I contributed to marginalising your experience - I too am supporting Obama, but intend to keep my female genitalia and hopefully my feminism intact :) When I spoke of the experiences of 'women' supporting Clinton, I didn't intend to just refer to white women either, because obviously not all women, or even all white women, do support her. I was just refering to those, of whatever racial background, who do. I honestly didn't mean any disrespect to you and all those other women of colour, who I can only imagine have had a very difficult choice to make.
      Warmly, J.

      "I won't have any aggressive condiment passing in this house!" Marge Simpson

      by AussieJo on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:45:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  black women, latinas, asian (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sja, shanikka, oscarsmom, futurebird, ck4city

    and native american women don't count as "women" I guess.

    Anthropologists for human diversity; opposing McCain perversity

    by Denise Oliver Velez on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:09:53 PM PDT

    •  I have no idea what you mean (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Psyche, orangeuglad

      the data were for all women, not just white women. I also looked at african americans (which, clearly, include both men and women), because they would be Obama's counterpart to Hillary's gender-based support. They are two, somewhat overlapping, sets of data.

  •  Old Bitter White Women Who Are Mad As Hell (8+ / 0-)

    I think it started in New Hampshire when Hillary cried.  Old women must see themselves in her.  I am a 55 year old women and have not had any bad experiences with sexism or anything like that, and I don't vote on gender, but on honesty, integrity, and I don't see any of that in Hillary or Bill Clinton.  I got tired of them before they were out of the WH.  It always seems to be about them and not about democrats.  That is my biggest issue with them.  The Clintons are proving everything I have thought of them and more.

  •  Obama is the Better Woman (7+ / 0-)

    Let's see: Why did we want a woman for President?

    We wanted a woman to lead the country because women tend to lead by consensus, not fiat.

    We wanted a woman to lead the country because women are less likely to think of violence as a first option.

    We wanted a woman to led the country because women are more likely to practice tolerance and abide differences among people, and thus would bring people together to get things done.

    So, as lifelong feminist who has passionately wanted to see a woman lead the country all her life, I guess I have to support Barack Obama.

    Because clearly, Obama is the better woman.

  •  Congratulations on opening a topic that could (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    orangeuglad, Alohilani

    go on for years - and should. Not about HRC and Obama per se but about what we are learning about women - or not.  I am fascinated by the theories put forward so sincerely in many posts. I can relate to a lot of them. But way under all the assumptions and attitudes showing through might be the road to a deeper, newer, more applicable and appreciated understanding of women in our society. The first bursts of feminism pursued equality in marital status, the vote, jobs, and a host of other specific areas. When all the fury of this nomination is over, I hope we pursue the true soul of woman, that inner vital core that we develop, how it gets enlivened,trained, developed, squashed, rewired by churches and men and other women and yet is still there somewhere deep. When we all have looked to that deeper woman self - women and men of all persuasions, races, ages - we might be able to pick the right woman to stand for us. Our choices will not come from fighting back at perceived aggressors but from unfolding ourselves from within and standing proudly as the selves we have developed with respect. I find it hard to think of myself as old even at my age but I can tell you that I'm still hopeful we can grow - I see it in my daughter, my daugher in law, my granddaughters, my younger friends. We need to reach across generations and keep our eyes open - we are separated by advertising, by social societies, by fearful disdain. Let's keep on talking. We have miles to go.

    •  There is a danger, though, that minority status (0+ / 0-)

      ends up exponentially raising the burden of expectations on the person. You hear it all the time - a woman has to be twice as good to achieve equal status of their male collegues. And I admit it is frequeqntly true. But so much of male (particularly white male) success is not about achievement but rather simply being part of the system. Bush is a prime example and one only has to look at the bloated ranks of white males in many industries including govt to see the overrepresentation of marginal and less-than stellar achievers. The true arrival of equality for women will not come in the form of fantastically stellar women achieving their full potential. IMO, that is happening at a fairly decent pace these days. No, we will have truly arrived when marginal women and less-than-stellar women are treated the same as their male counterparts and are moved along by virtue of their participation in the system.

      Lackluster, mediocre candidates that are flawed yet successful are a dime a dozen. In that regard, Hillary represents a far larger step forward for women than Obama does for African Americans. Obama is Sydney Poiter in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner - someone so exceptional that only a fool could hold their race against them. Hillary is flawed yet successful and I take some hope not just from her candidacy even if she loses, but from the power women have found and are yielding in this election.  

  •  Goddess knows (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KayCeSF, TexasLiz, orangeuglad, Alohilani

    I really, really, really understand!  I wanted, more than just about anything, to be able to vote for a woman while I still have all my faculties, but I just can't.  It is past time for this country to use all of its resources, especially the more than 50% who are female, many of them amazingly bright and capable.  No matter how I sliced and diced, I just couldn't swallow the Clinton candidacy.  I may have been spoiled: Barbara Jordan comes to mind.  Still, in do understand.

    -7.62, -7.28 "We told the truth. We obeyed the law. We kept the peace." - Walter Mondale

    by luckylizard on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:16:02 PM PDT

  •  Gotcha. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KayCeSF, orangeuglad

    It's okay to break the glass ceiling with a woman whose main selling point is who she married. Way to inspire young women! Tell 'em they have to marry the right man to be President!

    Also, maybe she said this after PA, but is it really a good idea to overlook the fact that she will be willing to nuke another country. "Obliterate it" I believe were her words.

    Yo Hills and fans, there are other people on this earth who have the power to "obliterate" countries too. Maybe it's not such a great idea for a Presidential candidate, you know, diplomatically and all, to casually throw threats like that around.

    "Careful. We don't want to learn from this." Bill Watterson/Democratic Party Motto

    by mentaldebris on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:15:52 PM PDT

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