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The other day the Los Angeles Times ran an op-ed about political blogs, looking at who reads them, how effective they are, and what their potential is to generate political change. There were no earth-shattering revelations in this piece, but one thing did catch my eye:

To determine just how polarized blog readers are, we constructed a measure of political ideology by drawing on blog readers' attitudes toward stem cell research, abortion, the Iraq war, the minimum wage and capital gains tax cuts. Using this measure, we then arrayed respondents from left to right. Here's what we found.

Readers of liberal blogs were clustered at the far left...

What does "the far left" mean?  Here's the attitudes of Americans as a whole on these issues:

Iraq War:

Do you favor or oppose the U.S. war in Iraq?

Favor    Oppose    Unsure    

  30            68            2

If you had to choose, would you rather see the next president keep the same number of troops in Iraq that are currently stationed there, or would you rather see the next president remove most U.S. troops in Iraq within a few months of taking office?

Keep Same    Remove Most    Unsure

    33                  64                   3

Stem Cell research:

There is a type of medical research that involves using special cells, called embryonic stem cells, that might be used in the future to treat or cure many diseases, such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, diabetes, and spinal cord injury. It involves using human embryos discarded from fertility clinics that no longer need them. Some people say that using human embryos for research is wrong. Do you favor or oppose using discarded embryos to conduct stem cell research to try to find cures for the diseases I mentioned?

Favor    Oppose    Unsure

  73           19            8

Abortion:

Do you think abortion should be legal in all cases, legal in most cases, illegal in most cases, or illegal in all cases?

Legal:  All   Most   Illegal:  Most   All   Unsure

          19    38                   24      13       6

Minimum wage:

Do you favor or oppose an increase in the minimum wage?

Favor    Oppose    Unsure

  80          18            2

We reflect the majority opinion of this country on pretty much every issue, yet the media continues to pretend that we're the far left, the lunatic fringe. They're still unwilling to admit the obvious...we are the mainstream.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:05 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  In many issues, yes, that's true. (10+ / 0-)

    Not in as many as I would like, though. Such as energy or gay marriage, for two examples

    •  Metrics? (7+ / 0-)

      "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

      by shpilk on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:10:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Same site Energy & Civil Unions (7+ / 0-)

        Saying the Iraq "Surge" worked is like saying Thelma & Louise had a flying car.

        by JML9999 on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:16:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Fair enough... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JML9999, Jeff Y

          Honestly though I think the middle ground position on energy is to do something about prices as soon as possible and however we can.  In the long run that necessarily means greater investment in non-fossil fuel sources.  

          We can talk about how offshore drilling isn't going to make a difference, but it sounds reasonable to people.  There are environmental considerations, of course, but when people are paying this much for gas, food, etc, they really could give two shits about what's happening to a coral reef or an ice cap.

          We have to work to educate people that the long term solution to our oil problem is not more oil.  That, in the end, we do not have enough oil that's readily accessible, to really make a significant dent in the problem.  That the real solution is a long term shift away from oil, and as much as we'd rather it wasn't the case, that won't fix the price at the pump today.

          •  "The angry left"? (8+ / 0-)

            I crack up everytime I hear some clown like Joe Scarborogh say that. If you've been paying attention to what the Bush crime family has been doing the last seven years and you're not angry then you are either stupid or you are a Wingnut (Joe Scarborough).

            You know it's funny, I've always thought the angry crowd was on the right, (BillO, Rush, Coultergeist, Mickey Mouse Malkin etc etc), but what would I know I'm just a "far leftwing blogger".

            •  If the Left is angry why is the RW infested with (4+ / 0-)

              screamers like BillO and Malkin and Coulter? They never say anything without having the decibles a few thousand too high.  

              •  You mean the calm and rational right wing? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                entlord1

                Who could ever believe this isn't a calm rational response to the situation?  O'Reilly is the picture of conservative control and demeanor in this clip.

                I mean the left is so angry the web is full of high profile far left pundits and commentators completely losing it and coming unglued on their hosts and coworkers.  I mean look at Mark Shields and Elenor Clift for example you can't hold them back from unleashing hell on everyone around them.  I mean they aren't the really far left like KO - I mean Keith Olbermann occasionally raises his voice and gets a bit of passion - a total loose cannon.  He is so bad they have to keep him chained to his desk to keep from biting the intern's heads off and spitting them at the cameramen and teleprompters.  Also they suggest guests stay behind the yellow safety line on the floor.  They occasionally have to put up lexan shields to protect from him throwing things at his guests - everyone already knows he breaks a teleprompter every night with his angry throw of the script at the end of the show.

                "...what Washington means by bipartisanship is mainly that everyone should come together to give conservatives what they want." --- Paul Krugman

                by puppet10 on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 03:13:44 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Really. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Jeff Y

              How can the oh, so mellow right have such a blood lust for war and do so with out being angry?

              All the right wing war mongers qualify as sociopathic murderous lunatics?

              I know, leading question.

        •  There are some energy questions.... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rlochow, JML9999, Jeff Y

          ...on which the public disagrees with the left but there are many on which they agree with us entirely.  Read 'em all and it's a mixed bag at worst.

          "Charlie Gibson snorts capital gains tax cut fairy dust for breakfast." - Geekesque

          by The Termite on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:29:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If you actually red the polls what you see is a (7+ / 0-)

            definite move toward the "left" point of view. Which makes the move by Obama to the center so stupid.

            The Left has to push. And push hard. Hell we have to get up running start and shove.

            Unrestricted free-enterprise has had its turn and has failed miserably for the hoi polloi. Reaganomics has been a failure — voodoo economics at best.

            I am tired of people telling the Left to sit down and shut up. We must keep up the pressure.

            No matter how cynical I get, it's impossible to keep up.

            by Flippant on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:48:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It looks like I agree with 81% on this one (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LaFajita

              "Do you think the Bush administration has taken sufficient steps to control rising oil and gas prices and ease its affect on American families, or has the Bush administration not done enough?"

              (10% say Bush has done enough and 9% are unsure)

              As you say movement is important to look at. Americans opinions on many issues are moving leftward. The notion that corporate media can/will act as a fair judge on this is ridiculous.

              Love that "power of the purse!" It looks so nice up there on the mantle (and not the table) next to the "subpoena power."

              by Sacramento Dem on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:22:05 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  recced for your sig! (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        chiefsjen, LaFajita

        Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment. --Solomon Short

        by potty p on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:20:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  we need to continually (5+ / 0-)

        ... blast the reduction of political thought into a linear model

        it's especially important when that model is conflated with, effectively, a result of binary-choice (or no opinion) polling ... cross-tabbing over multiple questions hardly qualifies as a notion that there's a position that can be called "moderate"

        The next fantasy: Obama/Dean (please let it be)

        by wystler on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:30:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Liberal and Progresive have been dirty words for (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wystler, LaFajita

          too long. Progressive ideas are mainstream ideas.

          Comprehensive Immigration Reform is another progressive idea who's time has come. Most Americans want the undocumented to come into the mainstream and have a fair pathway to citizenship. Listening to the wing nuts you would think that's radical. The
          Republicans and ultr-conservatives have used divide and conquer for too long, to the detriment of our country. If minorities, gays, immigrants, union members, free thinkers, progressives, moderates and their friends and families stick together, we will have a government that reflects the values and ideas of the majority of our country in 2009.

        •  We need to foster a real far left in this country (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          drksdeofthemoonx

          just to illustrate how centrist the progressive agenda actually is. The Los Angeles Times and other Corporate Owned Media would not be able to get away with this kind of crap framing if there were loud voices calling for the nationalization of all industry, imprisonment of capitalists and entrepreneurs, re-education labor camps for Chicago school economists, forced agricultural communes, etc. Reminders of what true "far left" is could be very helpful to fully repositiong progressive positions as moderate and centrist in the national discourse. I suggest a Netroots Nation Overton Window Fund to support a few crazy groups just to remind dumbass journalists that Pol Pot is far left, not Bernie Sanders.

    •  Energy? (5+ / 0-)

      Do you have a link to suggest we're out of step with mainstream opinions on energy?

      "Charlie Gibson snorts capital gains tax cut fairy dust for breakfast." - Geekesque

      by The Termite on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:12:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  no (6+ / 0-)

        the crap that LAT is trying to pull is this:

        1. a linear model works well for political though; the public can be broken down over a continuum
        1. moderates are identified by making different choices over yes/no (i.e., binary) answers to political identity questions
        1. far left folk are alike; far right folk are alike; and moderate folk are also alike, even if their polling responses are exact opposites of other moderate folk

        the linear model ought to be put out to pasture

        The next fantasy: Obama/Dean (please let it be)

        by wystler on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:34:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agreed totally (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wystler, jgtidd

          And the part that needs to be put out to pasture first is what I think you're referencing in #2 -- which is the notion that some "middle" or "center" exists where people adopt positions that are either compromises or ideal marriages of positions on the right and positions on the left.

          The center is mythical.  There are simply people who agree with the right on some issues and the left on others.

          "Charlie Gibson snorts capital gains tax cut fairy dust for breakfast." - Geekesque

          by The Termite on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:38:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So why are we running a 'centrist' candidate? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kbman, mkor7

            Oh, that's right, we're Democrats and we enjoy snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

            Ceux qui peuvent vous faire croire à des absurdités peuvent vous faire commettre des atrocités.

            by Orange County Liberal on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:40:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  we're not (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              The Termite, karateexplosions, zbbrox

              there is no center

              there is no left (per se), because the measure isn't linear

              there is no right (for similar reason)

              the scary thing is this: rejecting left/center/right labels forces us to describe specifically

              The next fantasy: Obama/Dean (please let it be)

              by wystler on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:43:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  We're running a candidate who (gasp)... (9+ / 0-)

              ...doesn't have uniformly liberal positions.  That doesn't make him a "centrist" any more than it makes him a "conservative."  It means you don't agree with him on everything, and neither do I, by the way.

              I don't enjoy triangulation.  But I don't think Obama is a triangulator, either.

              "Charlie Gibson snorts capital gains tax cut fairy dust for breakfast." - Geekesque

              by The Termite on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:46:36 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Obama's a centrist? (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wystler, Uncle Moji, Jeff Y, no expert, ramara

              Withdrawal from Iraq in 16 months, repeal DOMA and Don't Ask Don't Tell, major investment in alternative energy, a more progressive tax structure, universal healthcare, etc. etc., that's "centrist"?

              Centrist is, say, expanding Medicare without setting out to make healthcare universally available. Or beginning troop withdrawals without a timetable. Or cap-and-trade without 150 billion dollar Apollo program for renewables. Or allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire without hiking the capital gains tax. In short--just doing the politically popular half of the liberal agenda without engaging in the politically risky half.

              What Obama's doing is trying to build a coalition of Americans who share a variety of political positions to advance our common goals--affordable healthcare, economic stability, an end to useless war, etc. etc. That isn't centrism, it's leadership. The fact that he focuses on the big problems (Iraq) while going with the flow on smaller ones (gun control) and sometimes takes a more incrementalist approach (his healthcare plan, instead of a probably-doomed single-payer plan right away) doesn't mean that he is a traitor to the left, it means he plans on getting shit done.

              FDR said it best: A good leader can't get too far ahead of his followers.

            •  By today's standards... (4+ / 0-)

              ...Barry Goldwater would be a moderate democrat.  In any real sense, Obama is left of center, even if not as far left as some would like.

    •  Don’t you know? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jeff Y, GrouchoKossak

      Anybody to the left of the "Fair and Balanced" Faux News is considered to be "Far Left"

  •  I saw that article (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Termite, DWG, gchaucer2, Jeff Y

    and I don't know who I was arguing with the other day, but in the article they do say that bloggers and blog readers tend to be more politically active than the general public.  So can we put that one to rest?

    Never give up! Never surrender!

    by oscarsmom on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:08:08 AM PDT

  •  Truth has a well known liberal bias (19+ / 0-)

    Some folks out in Oregon are putting together this trial ad for the Oregon D's, tell me what you think:

    "Polls are like crack, political activists know they're bad for them but they read them anyways."-Unknown

    by skywaker9 on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:08:24 AM PDT

  •  We won't be the mainstream (12+ / 0-)

    until we elect a Democratic president and a Democratic congress that helps push the middle towards the left.

    The one thing that Bush and his cronies have been successful at during the last 8 years is pushing the center to the right.  So now the media views the right wing as being in the middle, and being in the middle as being left.  We need to shift the middle so that the left becomes the new middle, and we are only going to be able to do that with a Democratic congress and presidency.

  •  now if the media would become mainstream (18+ / 0-)

    it would healp the cause.

    Today's NY Times has a headline about the mixed feelings in Iraq abour Obama's proposal to withdraw troops from Iraq.

    Why not a headline about their total opposition to McCain's policy to occupy the nation for 100 or more years?

    Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity. Horace Mann (and btw, the bike in kayakbiker is a bicycle)

    by Kayakbiker on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:10:46 AM PDT

    •  They won't become centrist, or leftist (7+ / 0-)

      as long as they are owned and run by corporations.  And as long as that is the case they will relentlessy pour out their propoganda and their dumbass entertainment and the country will continue to stupify.  Just shutting off the tv gives great relief.

      "I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, you know I'm a peaceful man.'" Robbie Robertson

      by NearlyNormal on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:21:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I absolutely agree. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NearlyNormal

        As long as they control the message the perception of right, left and center will remain.

        Until that changes, the middle class suburbanites who vote republican will continue to work against their own self interests.

        "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor liberty to purchase power." B. Franklin

        by istari5th on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:33:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Can't Change Under Our System (0+ / 0-)

        Even if you break up ownership, economic efficiency has progressed to the point where they still need to push infotainment and suppress discourse even if run by mom and pop.

        This is the only way our national information environment can run. Owners must shape reality and dominate discourse. Everyting else must stick to back channels.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:53:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This is a marvelous illustration... (16+ / 0-)

    ...of the stigma surrounding terms like "left" and "liberal."  Allowing the media to use those words in derisive contexts with absolute impunity is one of the main reasons we fail.  I have said for years now that we have to take back these words so we can wear them with pride and invite others to do the same, but unfortunately there are too many sissies on the left who'd rather simply make up new words (which the right and the media will once again co-opt).

    God, we suck at communicating.

    "Charlie Gibson snorts capital gains tax cut fairy dust for breakfast." - Geekesque

    by The Termite on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:10:46 AM PDT

    •  The worst thing in my opinion is the question of (3+ / 0-)

      the war being put into liberal and conservative terms.  I know a lot of conservatives who are not happy with this war and never really were.  There are lots of conservative ideological reasons to oppose a war like the one we instigated in Iraq and then there are just a lot of humanitarian reasons to take issue with waging unnecessary wars - and believe it or not - there are conservatives who care about humanitarian issues.

      I find it interesting that there hasn't been more of a backlash from conservatives who oppose the war because the war issue does not define anyone's complete ideological make up at all.

      •  It has to do with... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        inclusiveheart

        I find it interesting that there hasn't been more of a backlash from conservatives who oppose the war because the war issue does not define anyone's complete ideological make up at all.

        It has to do with roles, stereotypes, and even archetypes.

        They think they're the ones who have to protect America from the shame of losing a war.  From the dirty hippies on "the other side."

        They're afraid if they really think it through or act on conscience, they'll be castigated from their social circle.  Which they often are, by the way.

        "Charlie Gibson snorts capital gains tax cut fairy dust for breakfast." - Geekesque

        by The Termite on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:33:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, here in my area it seems that (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          The Termite, kbman, Leap Year, Uncle Moji

          the Catholic Republican circles have by and large turned against this war; and in Alabama where my parents are living everyone has had it with the war that I've encountered and most if not all of those people are Republicans - and quite open about their dissatisfaction.  

          I've had more than a couple of funny exchanges in the last couple of years about the war where a conservative friend will wonder aloud with some consternation if their objection to the war makes them "liberal" and I've laughed and said "Hell no it doesn't.  You'd have to do a whole lot of other stuff to ever be considered a liberal.  Don't worry - you're no liberal."  Makes 'em laugh every time.

      •  It's Only THIS SPECIFIC War. Overwhelmingly (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        The Termite

        in general the right is strongly pro MIC and war, the center left is only a little less pro MIC and war unless one gets to going really badly. Only what's strongly left in America has any problem with a planet dominating military complex and militaristic society.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:55:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  When it is an abstract concept, I agree, but (0+ / 0-)

          the reality is that once these wars get going - all of them fought in my lifetime with the exception of the first Gulf War - have ultimately worn down people across the board - except of course that small 20% of people who I mostly imagine to be fairly belligerent weirdos and halfwits.

          I knew lots of people who wanted to win in Vietnam for instance, but few who really wanted to stay there for all eternity trying to do so.  Even a war as remote as this one really is, has worn on most people - 68% is cited in this diary - I'd bet that if you drilled down into the remaining 32% you'd find plenty of people even within that group who are ready for it to be over with and I think that's the question that Obama should really be going after McCain with.  The difference between the Democratic and Republican positions where it comes to Iraq is really that one party believes that we should be planning for an end to war and the other is planning for an endless war and occupation.  If you refuse to plan to end something, it is more likely than not that you are trying to perpetuate it.  Even the few people I know who still support our presence in Iraq are not interested in staying their for the long-haul.

    •  what I hate (5+ / 0-)

      Is when a talking head on the teevee pressents a Democratic politician's position to withdraw troops from Iraq and it is presented as the position of the "anti-war left."  

      Anti-war left?  It's the whole frickin country that wants us out of there.  The occupation of Iraq was based on lies; it's not the anti-war left vs somebody else.  By the way, who would the somebody else be?  The pro-war right?  Why don't we ever hear that said?

      Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity. Horace Mann (and btw, the bike in kayakbiker is a bicycle)

      by Kayakbiker on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:20:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Home of Jonah Goldberg (15+ / 0-)

    The LA Times, home of Jonah Goldberg, finds amusing ways of characterizing progressive blogs as extreme. On all the issues mentioned, Jonah Goldberg is out of step with America.

    Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by DWG on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:11:04 AM PDT

    •  Yeah, and the fascism of the liberals. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      opinionated, kbman, jds1978, GrouchoKossak

      These people are totally disconnected from time, space or sense of history.

      "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

      by bobdevo on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:13:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Jonah Goldberg writes... (11+ / 0-)

      ...from atop a hemmerhoid donut.  He'd be writing unread screeds on Little Green Footballs if his mother didn't know Linda Tripp.

      "Charlie Gibson snorts capital gains tax cut fairy dust for breakfast." - Geekesque

      by The Termite on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:14:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  More like (4+ / 0-)

      He's out of step with reality.

      From the NYT book review of his book:

      In attempting to link Roosevelt to the fascism that enveloped Europe in these years, Goldberg highlights examples like the Civilian Conservation Corps, which offered a paycheck and military discipline to unemployed young men from the cities, and the National Recovery Administration, which was intended to spur industrial production through centralized planning. But it’s absurd to view the C.C.C. as the American version of Hitler Youth, and the N.R.A. — heavy on slogans, light on coercion — was so ineffective that Roosevelt heaved a sigh of relief when it was declared unconstitutional in 1935. Oddly, Goldberg has less to say about issues more likely to bolster his case, like the enormous growth of executive power under Roosevelt and his ill-fated attempt to "pack" the United States Supreme Court.

      Goldberg acknowledges that Wilson and Roosevelt faced legitimate national emergencies — a world war and an economic collapse. But subsequent presidents have invented false crises to roil the masses, he claims, and John F. Kennedy did it best. "It is not a joyful thing to impugn an American hero and icon with the label fascist," Goldberg writes, but how else does one explain his popularity? The answer lies not in Kennedy’s record, which Goldberg assures us was slim, but rather in his cold-war brinkmanship, his "adrenaline-soaked" appeals to national service and martial values, and, of course, the Nazi-like cult of personality that he buffed to gleaming perfection.

      Is something missing here? Goldberg races from Wilson to Roosevelt to Kennedy and on to Bill Clinton with barely a glance at what happened in between. The reason is simple: for Goldberg, fascism is strictly a Democratic disease. This allows him to dispose of the politics of the 1920s in a single sentence. "After the Great War," he writes, "the country slowly regained its sanity." What Goldberg may not know — or is afraid to tell us — is that the 1920s were anything but sane. This was the decade, after all, that contained the largest state-sponsored social experiment in the nation’s history — Prohibition — and it lasted through three Republican administrations before Franklin Roosevelt ended it in 1933. The 1920s also saw the explosive spread of the Ku Klux Klan in the Republican Midwest, a virtual halt to legal immigration under the repressive National Origins Act and an angry grass-roots backlash against the teaching of evolution in public schools.

      Goldberg briefly enters the Eisenhower 1950s to tease liberals for whining about the supposedly trivial impact of McCarthyism. "A few Hollywood writers who’d supported Stalin and then lied about it lost their jobs," he says. What’s the big deal? For the Reagan 1980s there is near-silence — hardly a word. I had entertained the slim hope that Goldberg might consider the "fascist" cult of personality surrounding Reagan’s 1984 "Morning in America" hokum ("Prouder, Stronger, Better"). But, alas, such scrutiny is reserved only for the Clinton presidential campaign of 1992, with its "Riefenstahlesque film of a teenage Bill Clinton shaking hands with President Kennedy." Indeed, even George W. Bush’s spectacularly staged landing on an aircraft carrier in full battle regalia to declare "mission accomplished" in Iraq escapes notice here. It doesn’t take a village for Goldberg to play the fascist card; a single Democrat will do.

      The final chapters of "Liberal Fascism" are a rant, often deliciously amusing, against America’s numerous liberal-fascist elites. In unexciting times, when there are no calamities to be addressed, liberals push a more robust social agenda, Goldberg claims, using the state and the friendly news media to tar opponents of, say, affirmative action or same-sex marriage as bigots, fanatics and fools. The task facing conservatives, he adds, is to hold liberals accountable for these jackboot tactics. "For at some point," Goldberg writes, "it is necessary to throw down the gauntlet, to draw a line in the sand, to set a boundary, to cry at long last, ‘Enough is enough.’"

      These are familiar words, eerily reminiscent of the "adrelaline-soaked" clichés of John F. Kennedy as he railed against Soviet expansion around the globe. But I dare not call them fascist. That would be unfair.

      "Polls are like crack, political activists know they're bad for them but they read them anyways."-Unknown

      by skywaker9 on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:14:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  But, the guys who wrote the ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NearlyNormal, Spoonfulofsugar

      ...piece can't really be considered right-wingers. That's the sad part.

      I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

      by Meteor Blades on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:18:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Jonah Goldberg is in step with the talibans (0+ / 0-)

      noone else. Most others have moved on from the Middle Ages.

      Conservatism = greed, hate, fear and ignorance

      by Joe B on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:21:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The biggest problem (8+ / 0-)

    is how Democrats talk about issues.  We just don't sell things as effectively as Republicans, even though we often hold the more popular opinions.

  •  There is no "far left" in the United States (27+ / 0-)

    That's just the label applied to what the rest of the world would call the moderate middle ground.

    moderation in everything ... including moderation

    by C Barr on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:12:00 AM PDT

    •  Exactly, the far left would be the Communist (3+ / 0-)

      Party and I don't think their membership is too high.

      •  SWP and Solidarity are likely the two largest (0+ / 0-)

        ---
        Fight the stupid! Boycott BREAKING diaries!

        by VelvetElvis on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:24:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Actually communists are closer to conservatives (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        opinionated, pat bunny, kbman

        than to liberals. The same authoritarianism, the same intrusive and opressive government.

        Conservatism = greed, hate, fear and ignorance

        by Joe B on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:24:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, that's one view of communism (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jon Bird

          I suppose.  Perhaps a more accurate view of the old Soviet Union which many argue was not an exemplar of communism.

          There are also some who argue that medicare, medicaid, social security, single payer, public education, environmental regulation, progressive taxation, etc are "intrusive" or "big bad" government or "socialistic" or horror, "communistic" and therefore intrusive and oppressive.  Certainly Exxon, Enron, Grover Norquist, Dick Cheney might agree with that view.

          I've had some experience with US communism in some of its many forms and subgroups, and it wasn't so much the ideology (since I remain an avowed pinko) but the expectation of universal agreement that I found too constricting.  Which is why the Democratic Party (for all its more rightist leanings) remains an irritating and joyful home for me - full of thinking, arguing, thoughtful and thoughtless contrarians who do so out of a shared love for the people of our country.

          I'd be careful not to throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater; that baby may be one of our voters in a few years. ;-)

    •  'Zactly! Noam Chomsky is a centrist in Europe. (5+ / 0-)

      It reminds me of primitve cultures where they believe if you ear the heart of the bear, you take on his attributes.

      Well, we defeated the Nazis . . . and the next thing you know they're writing the National Security Act of 1947 and building our missile for us.

      "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

      by bobdevo on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:14:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The labels of "left" and "right" are severely ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wystler, Kayakbiker

      ...obsolete. Unfortunately, we haven't produced anything that works to replace them effectively.
      "Progressive," "liberal" and "conservative" certainly don't do it.

      I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

      by Meteor Blades on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:21:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think left and right are still apropos (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Spoonfulofsugar

        I just think we have been guilty of letting their meaning come adrift.  Its sort of the Orwellian theme of making words drift away from reality, soon War is Peace...

        "I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, you know I'm a peaceful man.'" Robbie Robertson

        by NearlyNormal on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:25:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  lose those labels (0+ / 0-)

          using those labels? you're supporting a linear model of political thought

          it's not that the linear model is broken. it's that it never worked well in the first damned place, except to marginalize the folks its proponents (Broder) claimed were at either end

          The next fantasy: Obama/Dean (please let it be)

          by wystler on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:37:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  So, what makes a particular position on ... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          NearlyNormal

          ...nuclear power, feminism, gun control, gay marriage, or stem cell research leftist?

          I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

          by Meteor Blades on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:46:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  To me, what makes a position leftist or rightist (0+ / 0-)

            is whether it moves toward equality of opportunity, and solidarity as a community or not.  Many issues are not resolvable, or defineable as leftist or rightist categories, including some of the categories you list above-they would be more of a common sense thing.

            Stem cell research-a no brainer as far as I can tell, it is not political-though it may be religious in some fashion I don't truly understand, the question for stem-cell research is do we believe in science or not.

            Feminism I see as a type of leftist thought, somewhat perverted in that it is a somewhat poor answer to a age old problem of feminine domination.  Leftist thought would indicate that all should have equal opportunity.  This would imply that feminism itself is rightist insofar as it implies that there should be a preference toward someone merely based on their gender.

            Similiar to the notion of affirmative action, a very unsatisfactory answer to a horridly difficult question, what to do about generations of deprivation.  Necessary perhaps, for a while, but obviously not satisfactory because it punishes those who were not responsible, and so not a leftist position in the long run-had the leftist solution of equality been taken a couple of centuries ago we would not have the gordian know of slavery, Jim Crow, and the awful spectacle of black men lynched for nonsensical violations but really lynched to spread terror and fear in the black community and force them to acquiesce in their subjugation.

            Gay Marriage, Leftist, nearly by definition-solidarity and equality.

            Nuclear Power: Not political in the left-right sense if the waste issue is answered, but leftist thinking would be against making waste that is merely passed to another generation to deal with, solidarity includes our sense of obligation to pass on decent conditions to those that come after, as well as respect for the gifts of those who came before.

            Gun control, I don't know how one defines it, I live out in the country and am a long ways from help dealing with 2 and 4 legged mauraders, in the cities I think leftist thought would tend toward creating conditions where the idea of going around armed is socially unacceptable.  This issue has the further complication of having constitutional protection, so is it leftist or rightist to be in favor of an unconstitutional notion?  I suppose its like Thoreau said, one must sometimes look higher or deeper than constitutional theory.

            Sorry it took so long to write back and sorry also about the scattergun approach, I got called to Court and have spent most of the morning whining to the judge adnd snarling at the DA.

            "I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, you know I'm a peaceful man.'" Robbie Robertson

            by NearlyNormal on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 01:35:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  we're here (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SecondComing, Uncle Moji

      twenty years after the end of the cold war socialists are still persona non grata though

      ---
      Fight the stupid! Boycott BREAKING diaries!

      by VelvetElvis on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:21:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Kucinich would be a centrist in Sweden where (4+ / 0-)

      I live.

      Conservatism = greed, hate, fear and ignorance

      by Joe B on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:23:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I notice... (3+ / 0-)
    ...they left out "guns," which would have generated a hell of a surprise....
  •  You are SOOOOOOOOOOOO right on. (10+ / 0-)

    When explained directly, without RNC or Fox spin, the vast majority of the American people are indeed on what is now referred to as the FAR LEFT.

    For crying out loud, how FAR LEFT would TR or FDR be considered now.  Or Eisenhower.  Ike built the interstate hwy system and integrated the schools with the 101st Airborne.  He obeyed the dictates of the Supreme Court.  The Supreme Allied Commander realized totally that the even the Executive must obey the law.

    Since when has the criminal fascist corporati mindset been accepted as the fucking MIDDLE????

    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

    by bobdevo on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:12:47 AM PDT

    •  Thank goodness Eisenhower coined the term (5+ / 0-)

      "military-industrial complex."

      Not that we use it much anymore, unfortunately, but at least a good old Republican general came out with it.

      Can you imagine the hissy fit that would ensue if someone today had the gall to suggest that such a thing exists?

      The above comment is probably somehow disrespectful of John McCain's military service.

      by RickMassimo on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:19:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Eisenhower. That communist tool?? (0+ / 0-)

        As the John Birch boys said:  Impeach Earl Warren!!!!!

        "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

        by bobdevo on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 02:01:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The nutjob minority rules the media (8+ / 0-)

    Thanks for the ammo

  •  that's because they are using the same 6" ruler.. (4+ / 0-)

    they got back in their special journalism school.  you know, the one that is marked with the same 6 issues, and these issues are the metrics: if you say "against" on all 6, you are far right; if you say you are "for" on all 6 you are far left.

    They consider these new rulers by the way.  The older ones used to have as one of their six stock questions, "do you support remaining a British colony?"

    ttg

  •  I think at this point, "the media" is too general (5+ / 0-)

    This blog is media right here, when it comes down to it.  What we're talking about are some self important talking heads on cable news, mostly, who reach at most 10 million people in this country, many of whom are extremely political.  The evening news shows are pretty bad, at times, also, but they are much more likely to cover actual "news," meaning things that are happening in the world outside of who Obama's VP pick will be.  When you watch a lot of cable news (which I have to for my job), it's easy to think that they represent the end all be all of media.  While they do have a massive impact on campaign narrative, they're really only speaking to themselves and a large group of already decided voters.  

    When a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it, it still falls; when Obama puts hundreds of paid campaign staffers in numerous swing states and the media says nothing, they're still there.  

  •  it's nothing a few torches and pitchforks (6+ / 0-)

    can't resolve.

    want your country back?

    TAKE IT.

  •  Are you bitter, Mr Lieberman? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MattR, jck

       Scarborough: "Me and Mike Barnicle talk a good bit about these bloggers and people on the far, far, far left. The angry left. Here we have Joe Lieberman, progressive on civil rights. progressive on the environment, progressive on economic issues, progressive on union isues, yet they throw him overboard over one issue. Aren’t we talking about extremism on the left and the right?"

    Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious

    by Scarce on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:14:06 AM PDT

  •  pretty soon (6+ / 0-)

    the far left will be all that is left.

    You move the goal poasts far enough to the right and everybody except Limbaugh and Hannity are leftists.

  •  Since 2006 (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cotterperson, Spoonfulofsugar

    the "far left" has been the New Center in American politics.

    Yay, us!

    They burn our children in their wars and grow rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

    by Limelite on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:15:33 AM PDT

  •  Depends what you read (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jon Bird

    I am not sure the barometer that this article choose is the proper one.  However, a quick perusal of the diaries and comments therein would demonstrate that we do have a high quota of the lunatic fringe.  However, none of the items that the article choose to emphasize qualify someone as far left.  

    Take me, for example.  I actually left Daily Kos for a year because I got tired of the "far left" nutters on the site, yet I am in line with every question the article used.

    •  For future reference, could ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ivan, Hannibal

      ...reference, could you provide a couple of specific examples of far leftist nutter positions so I'll know when I'm crossing your line?

      I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

      by Meteor Blades on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:42:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Its not that hard (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        synchronicityii
        1. Bush is a Nazi
        1. The War in Iraq is a Zionist conspiracy
        1. There is no difference between Obama and McCain
        1. Just about anything praising Cynthia McKinney
        •  Oh, you find abundance of posts on this site (0+ / 0-)

          saying those things? Weird. I how did I miss them?

          vacuumslayer.deviantart.com

          by vacuumslayer on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:38:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I guess you don't read the comments (0+ / 0-)

            You seem to be taking this personally.  Here are a couple of thoughts.

            1. I don't think that agreeing with mainstream ideas like the Iraq war is bad, the death penalty is wrong, social security is good, makes anyone "far left."  I don't even think it makes you left.
            1. I am not a Blue Dog.  At the same time, I don't think calling someone a blue dog is an insult.
            1. There are plenty of people here whose politics I consider radical.  When they go overboard, they often get donuts, especially when they advocate for voting 3rd party or republican.
            1. There are a lot of wacky conspiracy theories floating around.
            1.  At the end of the day, I think that the founders of this site are progressive.  I do not think that is synonomous with "far left".  Indeed, often times, when you get too far to the left, you end up on the right.
      •  Well, a week or so ago (0+ / 0-)

        ...anyone who was unhappy with Sen. Obama's vote on FISA was a far-left nutter...

        Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað

        by milkbone on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:58:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not to me (0+ / 0-)

          Someone unhappy with Obama's position is not a far left nutter.  They are a defender of the constitution.

          Someone who thinks that Obama's vote on FISA is because he is "a slave to his corporate masters" is a left wing nutter.

    •  Far left nutters? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hannibal

      WTF?

      And what pray tell, are you? A Blue Dog nutter?

      All forms of Conservatism belong in the trash heap of history and not anywhere near our schools, government or society.

      by Brad007 on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:51:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Just a little ahead (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cotterperson

    I don't trust MSM writing on blogs b/c we are considered serious competition and are the ones that embarrass them when we catch the screw-ups or even better, "scoop them."  As for our political views, I think we are more mainstream than we normally believe.  I believe we are "anticipatory" of where the country is going b/c of meticulous follow through in stories, and expanding views through discussions, we "learn" as we go, and "teach" through experience, the others will catch up.  I can't think of a single issue progressives have ever been wrong on, slavery, women's rights to vote, civil rights, women's rights, health care, no war of choice.  It just takes others to catch up.

    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't watching you.

    by 4CasandChlo on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:16:25 AM PDT

    •  Oh, you cant? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      milkbone, GrouchoKossak, 4CasandChlo

      I can't think of a single issue progressives have ever been wrong on, slavery, women's rights to vote, civil rights, women's rights, health care, no war of choice.  It just takes others to catch up.

      Prohibition says hello.

      "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

      by Ivan on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:15:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually thought of that (0+ / 0-)

        But didn't think of it as a "progressive" issue, I thought of it more in terms of "religious/intolerance" issue, but maybe I am wrong, wouldn't be the first time, thanks for the reply.

        Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't watching you.

        by 4CasandChlo on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 11:38:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Not only are we the "mainstream", in most cases (7+ / 0-)

    we are the MAJORITY by HUGE margins.

    The fact that 20% of the population could be weighted equally against 80% of the population as some sort of "equal" voice is the real problem in how our media reports on issues like the minimum wage.

  •  Breaking: McCain "gorilla rape" joke goes MSM (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joe B, The Termite

    The Politico piece by Ben Smith just made Yahoo News.

    If McCain wants to win, he can't use the Katherine Harris playbook.

    Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

    by The Raven on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:18:28 AM PDT

  •  This Is Why Dems Must Run Right Urgently (6+ / 0-)

    They must catch voters before the entire electorate becomes so liberal it must be ignored.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:18:39 AM PDT

  •  Yeah, we're part of that (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Spoonfulofsugar, RickMassimo

    fringe majority.  Tricky group we are.  

    This is another example of elitism in the mainstream media.  They truly do believe that most of us riff-raff a simply not sophisticated enough to hold anything approaching enlightened views.

  •  There is No Significant Political Left in USA (0+ / 0-)

    as many observers point out.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:19:24 AM PDT

  •  The US "far left" (6+ / 0-)

    is the "slightly left of center" in the rest of the civilized world.  For instance, what politicians (who are actually in office) are advocating a 100% inheritance tax?  Or abolishment of private property.  Or nationalizing any of several industries.  Those a "far left" positions.  

    (Whereas the far right equivalents, 0% inheritance tax and privatizing many social services, are very well represented.)

  •  Everything that threatens the corporate agenda (7+ / 0-)

    is "far left", didn't you know?

    Conservatism = greed, hate, fear and ignorance

    by Joe B on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:19:47 AM PDT

  •  As time goes by (0+ / 0-)

    ..the "left" grows as the hard-core "right" dies off.

    In ten years the percentage of Americans that believe "most or all abortions should be illegal" will drop precipitously from the current 37%

    "Miscegenation - laws" were a hot topic on the right not too long ago.

    People are changing with the times. It's just so damn slow.

    When you grow up, knife a Romanoff wherever you find him - Samuel Langhorne Clemens

    by SecondComing on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:20:25 AM PDT

    •  As regards abortion, there is not ... (0+ / 0-)

      ...a statistical difference between the views of young people and older adults on the issue, unlike, say, gay marriage.

      I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

      by Meteor Blades on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:35:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Are you sure about that? (0+ / 0-)

        You may very well be right, but I've noticed in the largely ethnic-Catholic area where I live that the anti-abortion bumperstickers are only on cars driven by people over 60.

        Again, that may be a little too anecdotal, but I was under the impression that dogmatic opposition to abortion was generational.

        Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað

        by milkbone on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 11:02:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You're probably right (0+ / 0-)

        Although with the demise of Falwell, Wildmon, and the impending doom of the far-right Christianists - perhaps the "should be illegal under any circumstance" crowd with wither a bit.

        When you grow up, knife a Romanoff wherever you find him - Samuel Langhorne Clemens

        by SecondComing on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 07:56:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  "far left" favors nationalizing industry (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GrouchoKossak

    these idiots wouldn't know "far left" if it bit them in the ass

    ---
    Fight the stupid! Boycott BREAKING diaries!

    by VelvetElvis on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:20:34 AM PDT

  •  Open Memo to Mainstream Media (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    coloradocomet, vacuumslayer

    u r teh suck.

    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." -- Sinclair Lewis, 1935

    by Living in Gin on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:20:49 AM PDT

  •  every single MSM opportunity must stress this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Spoonfulofsugar, vacuumslayer

    we are the center, not the far left.
    America has changed, only the MSM and the scared reich wingers don't get it yet.

    What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

    by agnostic on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:20:56 AM PDT

  •  It is in the financial interest of the corporate (5+ / 0-)

    owned media to keep this mythology alive that we are the left fringe and not the mainstream..our positions have always been the mainstream..for the past 100 years in politics, our positions have been mainstream..the lunatic right wing took control of the country in the early 1980's and tried to shift the agenda in order to justify the destruction of the New Deal..

  •  When you are looking (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    coloradocomet, Spoonfulofsugar

    from the far right -- anything left of Bush is considered extreme far left.

    My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total. Barbara Jordan 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:22:20 AM PDT

  •  This reminds me of a poll a while back (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FutureNow

    that showed that most independent voters lean liberal. If that is true, it makes no sense for Democrats to turn right in their campaigns.

  •  MSM goes south.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bush Bites

    Maybe that's why MSM viewers and ad dollars are heading rapidly down,,,, the Internet is the future DUH.... and they will never get it - kinda like GM.

    •  Funny: I thought you meant "south" literally. (0+ / 0-)

      Which, I think, is also the case. They really seem to take the views of the Deep South as "Mainstream America" now.

      As a Midwesterner, I still choke when I hear the Deep South called "The Heartland."

      We like our guns, but we don't wear our religion on our  sleeves and really don't like to send boys off to die for some other country.

  •  Round and round (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    howd, Jfriday, GrouchoKossak

    And of course the really leads to one conclusion.

    The country is opposed to the war. The "left wing blogs" are opposed to the war, so what else is left?

    The news media.The pundits. The news media and the small percentage of Bush die harders. Stuck on the far right.

    Then of course, there's Congress, who listen to the news media, and believe them.

    So the country is against Bush and all he stands for, by huge margins. The percentage of those saying they approve of him is so small that it can be explained simply by the number of clinically insane in this country, and William Kristol.

    Meanwhile the Republicans threaten the Democrats with "Give Bush everything he wants or we'll tell people you're weak on terror" and the Democrats, weak with terror, scared by David Broder, immediately cave.

    Sigh.

  •  Yet another step (0+ / 0-)

    in the continuing downward spiral of a once-great newspaper.

  •  Whoa! TOOOO Many Dems Use 'Far Left' DFH (0+ / 0-)

    memes -- and, as I think about it as I write this

    -- this has turned into a litmus test for me.

    ANY Dem who uses the fucking fascist memes

    IS

    Incompetent, a sell out, a mix of both,

    AND

    needs to be primaried out of existence,

    OR

    let them join the fucking fascists.  

    REAL Dems will Equal LOTS MORE Dems.

    rmm.

    Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

    by seabos84 on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:26:08 AM PDT

  •  Most Americans aren't "liberal bloggers", but... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    istari5th

    . . . liberal bloggers agree with most Americans, and vice-versa.

    The Deadwood Press and "2 Minutes Hate TV" simply hate those simply, irrefutable facts, so they continuously blather/screech lies.

    bg
    _____

    "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

    by BenGoshi on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:27:55 AM PDT

  •  but we ARE "far left" .... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Inland, vacuumslayer

    we are far left of EXTREME RIGHT :)

    the problem for the media is that they have been bending over for the extreme right for so long that they no longer can think independantly and can ONLY read the daily talking points which are delivered to them by having right wing extremists EAT the talking points in order for the talking heads stuck up the rights backside to be able to read them as the right chits them out.

    The CONSTITUTION is MY Flag pin

    by KnotIookin on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:28:18 AM PDT

    •  Exactly. (0+ / 0-)

      The Right has been so good bullshitting the American people and framing debates that center-right is now considered "middle." And the morons in the press have been going with those frames for fear of being labeled "liberal."It's pathetic and cowardly and dangerous.

      vacuumslayer.deviantart.com

      by vacuumslayer on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:42:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Mainstream positions (0+ / 0-)

    We reflect the majority opinion of this country on pretty much every issue, yet the media continues to pretend that we're the far left, the lunatic fringe. They're still unwilling to admit the obvious...we are the mainstream.

    I won't hold my breath waiting for the RWCM to acknowledge as much, but it sure would be great if our own candidates would come around. Geez, I'm still always shocked when I hear Kossacks suggest that progressive values are unpopular and need to be stealthily and incrementally implemented.

    My other car is a pair of boots.

    by FutureNow on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:29:13 AM PDT

  •  Far left? What far left? (0+ / 0-)

    There is no equivalent in contemporary American politics to the New Left of the 1960s. No Yippies, no Black Panthers, no Students for a Democratic Society, no Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, no Weather Underground. Those political species have either died off, adapted, or wound up being hunted into extinction.

    John McCain's Straight Talk Express runs on fossil fuels.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:29:18 AM PDT

    •  Thos Jefferson (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dump Terry McAuliffe

      would be on the no-fly list, at the very least. Eisenhower would be a radical (with the military-congressional-industrial complex thing) today.
      This is a totally false narrative perpetuated by a group that were terrified of what happened in the 60's. They almost lost control, just like with Hoover in the 30's. That is why 90% of all drug interdiction efforts deal with marijuana. They remember the smell when we were taking over the universities.

  •  I dunno (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    milkbone

    I think there's a lot of overlap, but it's not the same as agreement. On some issues the "netroots" in general are to the "left" (such as wanting single payer healthcare) and in others (such as FISA) there's more of a matter of emphasis (as in, while most Americans probably don't like the idea of government spying, the intricacies of the FISA legislation and telecom immunity are not something they know or care about) and sometimes there's no one accepted "netroots stance" on an issue--like trade, for example. Some might even claim that any focus on issues where there is broad consensus waters down the sharper emphasis on more contentious issues.

    Finally, I have noticed that the diaries do tend to veer into more "extreme" territory than the front page, which is pretty standard Democratic fare for the most part. So which one is more representative of the "netroots"? I would argue that the issues most uniquely associated with the netroots are actually more about process things and aren't even ideological. After all, kos does seem to get pretty worked up about net neutrality or blogger access to certain events, whereas I really don't think about those issues at all.

    Barack Obama will only become president if enough people pay attention, so pay attention, dammit!

    by JMS on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:30:43 AM PDT

  •  Maybe... (0+ / 0-)

    ...we need to start calling ourselves the mainstream.

    Fear will keep the local systems in line. -Grand Moff Tarkin -SLB-

    by boran2 on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:32:46 AM PDT

  •  Cherry Picking (6+ / 0-)

    No doubt that the American mainstream and the "Netroots" are on the same page, on the surface, on these issues.  But get beyond that, and I think you'll see significant divergence.

    Indeed, I like KOS because it's NOT mainstream.

    But since we are supposed to be a reality based community here, lets  consider some other issues:

    Do most Americans even know what FISA is, much less care?

    Do most Americans obsess over Obama's "purity" and devotion to ideological dogma?

    Do most Americans sit around wringing their hands over the US Attorney Scandal, Don Seigelman, inherent contempt, Dunkin' Donut Commercials, whether or not Carl Rove is in jail and John McCain's teeth?

    Do most Americans want the next six months spent impeaching the President and Vice President?  Do most Americans want them "hauled before the world court in chains"?

    If you think the answer to these questions is "Yes"...you're out of touch.

    The abortion issue is settled in this country except in the minds of far right social conservatives.  Same goes goes stem cell research, to a lesser degree.

    Yes, the American people are against the IRAQ war because they are tired of how much it is costing in lives and money, and are basically just sick about hearing it.  But it's NOT because they are Anti-War.  There is no ideological objection to this war, or war in general, on the part of most Americans.  Everyone wants the war over, but the reasons for most are here are ideological; for most Americans, they are practical.

    Put another way, when this way began, the majority of Americans were for it, and I dare say the majority around here were against it. Those here were against it for primarily ideological reasons, I'd surmise.  To suggest that the American people are now against the war for the same reasons the Netroots have always been against it is specious.

    This is how polls can be deceiving.  For example, some people wanted to Giants to win the Superbowl because they love the Giants. Many wanted the Giants to win because they hate the Patriots.  If you ran a poll that said "Who do you want to win the Superbowl" and the majority said the Giants, it would be erroneous to assume that all of those people were Giants fan.  Yes, they all wanted the Giants to win...but for different reasons.

    Yes, this site is in line with the American mainstream on "Wanting to get out of Iraq". But that fact alone, along with the other two issues, doesn't mean that ideologically, the Netroots is in the center of American political thought.

    Just because the Netroots and the American mainstream happen to agree on three important issues (on the surface), doesn't mean this place is mainstream.  I'm sorry...I love it around here, but to say it's some kind of think tank of mainstream thought is just silly.  

    "I drank what?" -Socrates

    by BraveheartDC on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:32:59 AM PDT

    •  Best post I've seen in a long time (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jon Bird

      Enlightening and, I'm sorry to say, probably very accurate.

      Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power - Benjamin Franklin

      by johninPortland on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:38:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  religion fault line (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BraveheartDC

      50% of this site is atheist/agnostic. True Christian belivers, be it evangelical, Catholic, are a tiny minority of this site. in the population as a whole, only 10% of Americans would be characterized as atheists. 2/3rds of Americans support flag burning amdts and hanging the 10 Commandments in public places and don't have a problem with "under God" in tne pledge of allegaince. on these issues, there is a fundamental cultural divide between the netroots and mainstream America.  

      •  More to the point... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        George Naylor, Jon Bird

        Most Americans support the right to own handguns, oppose partial birth abortion, support offshore drilling, and oppose gay marriage.

        Does that mean that RedState is in line with "mainstream" American thought? Of course not.

        Anymore than this site is.  Both places represent the different ends of the ideological spectrum...but neither are in the center.

        "I drank what?" -Socrates

        by BraveheartDC on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:49:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I'll disagree on a few points (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FightTheFuture

      opposition to Iraq was not entirely ideological, if by that you suggest some form of pacifism.  Many of us simply saw it for what it was, a gross strategic and tactical blunder.   The mainstream media and the rest of the country have been slow to catch on, but they are catching on... it's like they're sticking their toe in the water before jumping in the pool....but once they're in...once they start looking, I'd submit that the many of the things discussed on this site will gain momentum, like possible impeachment hearings.  That kind of thing sounds radical only in a vacuum of information.  But once that information starts coming out, the need for hearings and possible prosecution becomes undeniable.  Put simply, if presented with evidence of actual corruption and racketeering, who would suggest the President is above the law?  Nobody.  The fact that this site and sites like it have been finding and discussing that evidence does not make it a "far left" issue ....it only means this site and these people are out ahead of the issue.  The same is true for most issues.  If we sat around and waited for J.Q. Public to turn off American Idol and take these issues serious, we'd be waiting a long time.  It's only through sites like this that push these issues ....slowly....into the MSM,  that we even have a chance.

      simplicity is the most difficult of all things

      by RichardWoodcockII on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:03:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, fine (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Jon Bird

        Agreed. I don't doubt the ability of this site to raise awareness, or influence the public debate. And indeed, this place often is ahead on some of the issues.

        Conservatives did the same thing with the Goldwater model with much success that ultimately resulted in the election of Reagan and the 1994 GOP landslide.

        But the ability to influence public opinion, while powerful, doesn't put you in the mainstream...it just means you can influence what mainstream thought is.

        As I pointed out elsewhere, most Americans support the right to own handguns, oppose partial birth abortion, support offshore drilling, and oppose gay marriage.  Can they be influenced on these issues? To be sure.  But at the moment, the majority of Americans are more in line with RedState than here (at least, again, on the surface).

        Again, cherry picking a few issues where there is superficial agreement doesn't make this place "mainstream"...any more than other issues makes RedState mainstream.

        "I drank what?" -Socrates

        by BraveheartDC on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:11:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Au contrair, it does put you in the mainstream (0+ / 0-)

          when this "influence" of opinion is accompanied by no real opposition opinion allowed in the same venue and by lies, just plain lies.  You way underestimate the damage the MSM media has done in dumbing down the sheeple.  You also ignore the crimes done to advance their agenda at the national stage.  Does Reagan and the "October Surprise", where they were dealing illegally and secretly with the Iranians to not release the hostage in order to hurt Carter ring a bell?

          You don't negotiate with fascists, you defeat them in the name of democracy. --Ambr. Joe Wilson

          by FightTheFuture on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:59:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  it's been more about "framing" issues (0+ / 0-)

          than understanding them.

          The right has been masterful at framing the issues, often based on a false premise, to skew the "in favor" vs. "opposed" results.

          using the issues you point out as examples:

          most Americans support reasonable gun control, the right to choose abortion in early stages of pregnancy, alternative energy initiatives and the rights of gays not to be persecuted simply because they are gay.  Now who is "mainstream"?

          Sadly, the issues are never framed and discussed in those terms.  And I can tell you from experience that if you try to reframe the issues to discuss them in those terms at RedSTate, Moe Lane will ban you from his site....because he's a tool and a propagandist and his site is only designed to create the appearance of debate and discussion rather than the genuine article.

          simplicity is the most difficult of all things

          by RichardWoodcockII on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 11:30:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So let me get this straight... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            nicolemm, Jon Bird

            When Americans agree with the right, it's simply because of the way the issue was "framed"...and when they agree with the left, it represents their genuine views.

            I see.  

            Your point has some merit, but the "framing" question goes both ways. Any good pollster can generate whichever answers they want simply by framing the issue in a certain way.  

            Despite the right wing media "framing" conspiracy, polling indicates that most Americans support the right to own handguns, oppose partial birth abortion, support offshore drilling, oppose gay marriage, support a flag burning amendment,  support the PATRIOT act as signed, support keeping "under God" in the pledge of allegiance, and have no problem with prayer in school.  

            Is there nuance there? Of course there is. I'm not saying there's not. Using your examples

            most Americans support reasonable gun control.
            Yes. So do most on here. Most on here also support outright bans on handguns, ala the DC law.  Most Americans oppose this.

            the right to choose abortion in early stages of pregnancy

            Yes.  Most on here, and most Americans, support the right to early stage abortion.   And most on here oppose laws limiting late term abortions.  Most American support such laws.


            alternative energy initiatives

            Yes, most Americans support alternative energy initiatives.  So do most on here.  But most Americans ALSO favor offshore drilling, something most on here oppose.

            "and the rights of gays not to be persecuted simply because they are gay."

            Yes,most Americans of course are against gays being persecuted. As are most on here. Most Americans also oppose gay marriage. Most on here support it.

            Now who is "mainstream"?

            Now who is being cute with framing? For every issue, "mainstream" America has its position. On each of these issues, the readers of this site hold position that is to the left of that.

            Moreover, most Americans supported the Iraq war in the beginning, until things got bad. They only abandoned it because of practical (lives and money lost) reasons, not ideological ones (i.e. They had no problem with a pre-emptive war, or war in general, like most on here did).

            They have also put a Republican in the white house 20 of the last 28 years.  The one Democrat was a DLC Conservative style dem. For a significant length of time they gave the GOP majorities in Congress, the Governors seats and state legislatures.

            No doubt, things have changed.  But it's not because Americans have all of a sudden embraced the left.

            They voted the GOP out of power because of disgust with the Iraq war and corruption.  Every bit of exit polling supports this. Even then, the dems could only get control of the Senate by running conservative candidates. They did not vote "for" the dems as much as they voted "against" the GOP.  Even Pelosi admitted as much a few days after the election. Does anyone here seriously think in 2006 the American people just made a huge shift to the left and started voting for dems because they loved them?  

            If only KOS members could have voted over the past 30 years, there would not have been one Republican in the House, Senate, White House and likely in any Governors mansion or state legislature.

            Let me be clear...I'm not a Republican, nor defending any GOP issue. I'm merely being a realist, and pragmatic (like my candidate, Obama) when I saw that saying the politics of most on this site represent the mainstream in America.  They just don't. I'm sorry that bothers you, and that you'd like it to be different, but it's not...yet.  Yes, America is slowly drifting leftward...but be happy when this place TRULY represents the mainstream. Until then, there is work to be done.

            Now...how "mainstream" were you saying this place is again?

            "I drank what?" -Socrates

            by BraveheartDC on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:04:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  not exactly my point.... (0+ / 0-)

              the real point is that, for the most part, the MSM repeats the issues as framed by the right...keeping the debate within a framework designed to make conservatives look mainstream and to make any dissenter look like part of the "radical left" or whatever pejorative is the flavor of the week.

              Seldom do you see any MSM news anchor challenge the framing of the issue. Consequently, the issues get discussed within the right wing framework.  The logical consequence is that everything that doesn't agree with the couched premise seems not to represent the mainstream.

              When was the last time you heard a news anchor discussing gay marriage amendment ask the right wing talking head..."so exactly how much discrimination do you think is okay because someone is gay?" and then follow it up with a "why stop there?" question.  When have you ever seen one employ the socratic method to push these wingnuts to their logical conclusions?

              Or when they fall back to the bible to support their position, why does no news anchor say: "hey, what makes  you think the evangelical interpretation of the bible is right?"  or "would you support putting the Book of Mormon's Doctrine and Covenants in your courthouse, too?"

              Of course, if left to discuss the issue in terms of whether removing the ten commandments is an "attack on god," anyone who argues for that seems like a radical when, in fact, the idea that our government should not be endorsing or persecuting any single religion is a constitutional principle...that sadly gets relegated to the sidelines due to journalistic ineptitude.

              simplicity is the most difficult of all things

              by RichardWoodcockII on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 02:37:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Also think you paint with too broad a brush (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              nagamaki

              when you group all Kos supporters under the same umbrella.  I was a Republican.  I am a veteran.  I own guns.  Yet here I am. Not necessarily because I "like" democrats.

              Most republicans consider themselves "conservative" because they think that means believing in small government and fiscal responsibility. I agree many are leaving that party because they are waking up to the realization that it has been hijacked by religious wackos and corrupt capitalists.  But lots of these guys are hard working Americans who have simply never considered issues in any terms except as framed by the GOP.

              The successes of the GOP you site above have many explanations, but one of them is not that the informed voters of America are necessarily making rational, informed decisions about these debatable issues and choosing the GOP.  More likely, they either have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo or they are being misled into believing the GOP represents their interests.

              Rush Limbaugh is a perfect example.  Near right wing monopoly of a.m. talk radio throughout middle America....12 years of constant liberal bashing and practiced issue framing definitely had an effect.  That guy is a purveyor of half truth and a paid propagandist.  Americans now think about "gun control" in terms of government liberals trying to take them away instead of in terms of what regulations make sense in a civilized society. It's always the same....with almost every issue.  

              You can trace this back to an actual written strategy...the wedge.  Frame issues to cause a wedge between people and use the seeming irrationality of the wedge issue as you frame it to marginalize the left.  It works.  Especially when you can control how the issues are framed. Hence the danger of Rush, Fox, etc.....and thank God for MSNBC and Air America because without them, there would still be no balance.

              Compared to five years ago, the Country is definitely shifting left.  But that's left of near fascism.  It was a strange thing for me to be called unpatriotic and threatened when I suggested Iraq was going to be a gigantic mistake.  Never mind that I actually know what the fuck I'm talking about (having served in Military Intelligence, counter-terrorism, B.A. Middle East studies, fluent Arabic).  Or being labeled a "terrorist lover" when I suggested that the Patriot Act was unnecessary and provided broad powers to the President that were extra constitutional (never mind that I have a law degree)...according to the a.m. radio junky with the cutoff sleeves and budweiser hat, I'm some kind of communist who should leave this Country and live somewhere else.  And its been the same on issue after issue since 2002.

              Yeah, we got work to do.....but the hard work is starting to bear fruit.

               

              simplicity is the most difficult of all things

              by RichardWoodcockII on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 02:59:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Listen (0+ / 0-)

                You are obviously a smart guy, and we just seem to disagree on the issues. Fine.

                But really, I have a hard time having a dialogue with you because, if I can be perfectly honest, while at first glance you seem to make reasoned arguments, you just fall back into predictable leftist talking points that are hard to take seriously...i.e. Republican victories are all because of media manipulation (this is frankly condescending), and/or ignorant voters.  And I'm sorry, someone who served in the military should know better than to throw terms like fascism around so sloppily.  

                You also have to remember liberals are responsible for some of the perceptions Americans have of them.  For example, while most Americans favor reasonable gun control, when they look at something like the total DC gun ban, in complete contradiction to the 2nd Amendment, they (correctly) conclude that the far left is against private gun ownership.

                The awful and corrupt dem controlled congresses of the 70's and 80's didn't do anything to help the image of the left in this country either.  Nor did 60's radicals and the unilateral disarmament crowd.

                Having said that, I agree the country is moving left.  I also think it's deplorable that anyone would call someone who has served the country like you have a communist, terrorist sympathizer, whatever.

                So we agree on this conclusion, that the country is slowly turning left.  I just don't dismiss conservative ideology, nor it's genuine appeal in vast parts of America, as easily as you do.

                "I drank what?" -Socrates

                by BraveheartDC on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 07:40:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's the "genuine appeal" thing that gets me (0+ / 0-)

                  That "genuine appeal" has been carefully crafted and marketed...framed for easy flag draped consumption....

                  I know exactly what I mean when I use the term fascism.  And the Bush Administration came as close as I ever want to see this Country come....where its people were cowed by an orchestrated noise machine designed to scare the shit out of them with exagerated threats of imminent danger?  Am I condescending to laugh at the morons who ran scurrying for duct tape and saran wrap?  No.  I just happen to know the difference between chicken shit and chicken salad.

                  It's a great irony of recent years that the GOP is even pretending like they did not beat a propaganda war drum and that ...somehow...everything would be okay except for the so-called "liberal media."  Blows me away that a media industry that gave this administration every benefit of the doubt for four years, is somehow now "liberal" simply because so much of the squelched outcry is turning out to have merit.

                  Speaking of lame media wrongly characterized as "left leaning," how come I hear nobody really discussing it...still dismissing criticism like the articles iintroduced by Kucinich as some fringe mass halucination.  Why isn't the media asking the involved powers that were about some of these issues?

                  Why hasn't anyone asked exactly what kind of planning went into this "democracy building" strategy, anyway?  
                  That's their final justification for the war, right?  Okay, I'll play along...exactly what planning was made for the period after Saddam was inevitably going to be crushed?

                  If the mission was to build a democracy in the middle east, exactly what were the steps you considered necessary, how did you define victory? (this is what happens when you let politicians like Rumsfeld play general...which he is not, was not and never will be).  

                  What was the Army taught about the fundamental institutions of a functioning democracy?  How was it trained to build those?  What basic principles of a self governed free democracy were they trained to teach the population about and then enforce?

                  The lack of such planning in the face of an obvious power vacuum is grossly negligent at best.

                  What was the plan for sitting there, accomplishing that ill-defined, poorly understood, plan on the fly mission while simultaneously trying to dodge attacks from Al-Qaida?  Al-Qaida descending on our sitting Army had to be foreseeable....hell, it was almost inevitable if you're going to plop your whole goddam army in the middle of a destabilized Country with porous borders.   Are you telling me the Army didn't anticipate that?  Show me the general with the balls to admit it ......good luck.....keep looking.

                  Who chose an urban battleground as the setting for this experiment in  free form democracy?  Who thought an urban battleground in a foreign land where our troops don't speak the language, don't understand the culture, can't tell friend from foe, where "collateral damage" is inevitable ....who....which of you geniuses thought that favored the U.S. in the war on terror?   Crickets...that's all you'll hear.  because further exploration of the issue makes it obvious....they intentionally confused the difference between Saddam and Al-Qaida to leverage national support to avenge 9/11 and direct it to a different goal....i.e., the destabilization of Iraq and replacement of Saddam's regime with a western democracy.  Did they tell anyone that's what they wanted to do?  Why do you think that is?

                  The answer to these questions, if pursued with diligence and objectivity...is that the politicians wanted this war, underestimated its requirements, squelched dissent and pushed our Army into it with a polly anna promise and a kiss that they'd be coming home in 90 days.....democracy would "spring forth" from the loins of a once oppressed people, now free....fiddle music playing in Don Rumsfeld's head, eyes all aglow.....Then, when it was clear that was impossible (see Al Qaida's inevitable arrival, above)....Once they realized this was going to be a long haul, fighting an Al-Qaida incited civil war, had they been honest with us all along, they could have called a draft ...  But they didn't because they weren't.  So in the face of unplanned for manpower requirements, lacking the balls to call up a draft or explain that they underestimated the requirements of this mission....the stupid bastards began "outsourcing" everything....paying "military grade" prices for every goddam thing under the sun, costing us HUGE ...nay incalculable.....amounts of tax payer money, lost opportunity, and reputation.....no bid contracts to your friends?....are you fucking kidding me?  What do you mean you won't approve a Constitution until long term oil contracts for U.S. Companies are signed.....wtf?   How many extra guys have we lost while pursuing that stupid fucking objective?   How many "stop loss" soldiers or third tour guardsman did we burn for that?  "Dear Mrs. Owens, the United States ARmy regrets to inform you....."    what about return on HIS investment?

                  Fuck the Republicans.....not because they are conservative and think different than me...but because this Administration was full of shit, start to finish....and because so many people bought it...that scared me most.....and because our Country finds itself today less strong, less respected, less secure, facing multiple national diplomatic crises, military stretched too far, economy on the fucking brink (don't get me started on the economic policies)........because they got their 2 term George and fucked it all up.

                  Maybe I'll vote Republican again in the future....but I'm American first and that party has turned into everything I hate.   small government? Not.  fiscal responsibility? Not.  Strong on national security?  MOST OBVIOUSLY FUCKING NOT!.....  So what is the genuine appeal of conservatism?  I don't hate gays.  I have guns, but don't think my neighbor should own a machine gun or rocket launcher.   I think "abortion" should be legal and I know the difference between chicken shit and chicken salad.  I'd rather see tax dollars go to fixing my country instead of padding the profits of oil companies.

                  simplicity is the most difficult of all things

                  by RichardWoodcockII on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:10:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  p.s.s. (0+ / 0-)

                    I meant to say that if today's conservatism can only taut its dislike of gay marriage, abortion, gun control and unbridled capitalism....I see no appeal...I definately see no "genuine appeal" and I don't consider that kind of conservatism "genuine"...seems like the Pat Haggerty/Gordon Gecko part of the party I can't stand.....which leads me back to vested interests and dumbasses.

                    simplicity is the most difficult of all things

                    by RichardWoodcockII on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:33:19 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Wow (0+ / 0-)

                    I really have no idea what to say.  We were talking about whether or not this place is in the mainstream of American political thought and you go off on a tirade about the strategic and tactical failures of the Iraq War...peppered with a liberal use of many variations of "fuck" (I guess that shows the true depth of your outrage), along with references to a lunch that may or may not involve chicken shit.

                    You------>Deep end.  

                    You know, there are many decaffeinated brands on the market that are just as tasty are the real thing.

                    See ya.

                    "I drank what?" -Socrates

                    by BraveheartDC on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 07:00:22 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  sorry bout that (0+ / 0-)

                      yer absolutely right...it's just one of those moments when six years of frustration bubble out of you, volcano style....my apologies....I'd take my meds...but I don't take meds...

                      I do see these issues as related, though.  I mean the whole idea of what is or is not "mainstream" is wrapped all up with these stupid labels and couched premises.

                      I submit that most of what goes on here is only considered out of the mainstream b/c the media has been complicit in labeling anything that is not in lock step with Bush policy as "out of the mainstream"...Bush, it seems is never out of the mainstream...no matter how stupid his ideas....the rest of us...those who disagree, we're apparently all different shades of "liberal."  I just don't buy it...

                      simplicity is the most difficult of all things

                      by RichardWoodcockII on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 08:48:23 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

    •  So What? There are many paths to the same (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      brein

      destination.  What is important here in measuring how "mainstream" Kos and the liberal blogs are with the majority of Americans?  The destination or the path taken to it?  These polls only measure the destination, for the most part, BTW so it is hard to judge the paths taken of the majorty.

      For a short term consideration, the destination (e.g. no Iraq war) is more important if we are to stop the ship form sinking.  In a longer range, the path taken is more important -- i.e. no Iraq war because it is not right--Saddam not a threat and did nothing to us, its is not our Oil, etc.  There is a far left consideration that all war is wrong, but I do not think many would agree with that here, or elsewhere, even outside of America.  Maybe in Tibet, but really, war for defense is quite acceptable even if war should be the last option and is, ultimately, a failure of diplomacy.  

      The consideration of the path taken can be helpful to educate people, especially at a young age (e.g. stealing other peoples shit is wrong!), and make better decisions so we don't have to repeat the same old shit again and again.  The destination is important for the immediate goals.  

      We need education and consideration on paths and destination, but I do not see where Kos or the liberal blogs are out of the mainstream -- which is the destination, not so much the path.  That is very important and we are in agreement with the majority.  It should not be diminished or called into question.

      As for paths, even those are in question:  for example, the paths of the MSM more reflect their masters, the self-styled "owners" of us all which are also very fascist.  If people are educated on how that is so, then you may find the paths of the majority to be more similar than not!

      You don't negotiate with fascists, you defeat them in the name of democracy. --Ambr. Joe Wilson

      by FightTheFuture on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:28:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What IS the far left? (0+ / 0-)

    I'm genuinely asking. Most Americans' positions are already on "the fringe" so how far can you even go? Besides completely giving the state all your money and possessions and living in communes, but nobody does THAT in any country anyway.

    "I'm trying to believe in you but this world sold its faith for parking lots and drunk sincerity." - the ataris

    by indiemcemopants on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:34:20 AM PDT

  •  All of this framing was invented by the (0+ / 0-)

    conservatives and of course blindly followed by the MSM. Take "precipitous withdrawal." This was invented by Bill Kristol, who bragged about it being used to demonize the opposition. Now all of the simians use it.
    "Far Left" is very amusing. If Mort Sahl were still around (where is he these days?) we could be treated to one of his blackboard spectrums: Albanian Communists were the "Far Left." Then, moving rightward, Che's and Mao's followers, Fidel, etc. Around the center were most Republicans and most Democrats. Kos according to Sahl would be just a shade left of center,
    and certainly not maoist or Leninist (except in the thimble-size "mind" of Tom DeLay). All of this shows the general dumbing-down of this nation, with guys like O'Reilly and Hannity being called role models.

  •  We're all wearing Members Only Jackets, too. :) (0+ / 0-)
  •  McCain's "not talking" about his POW years (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GrouchoKossak

    again right now in KC.

    "...and I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords." --Kent Brockman

    by dhshoops on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:42:03 AM PDT

  •  It's called "repositioning" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vacuumslayer, GrouchoKossak, politis

    and it's a marketing tactic, successfully employed by the "far right" to "reposition" mainstream ideals as radical....it plays into their own brand image of being "conservative."

    Truth is, those terms have lost their meaning.  Unless you are a gun toting, gay hating, uber capitalist, who thinks "being American" means getting rich by hook or by crook, then you are part of the "far left."

    I'm sorry, but the media is composed of bunch of fucking idiots who have no capacity for critical thought and who have become so accustomed to accepting false premises posed by the right, that they have, through their total ineptitude, fucked Americans out of real information.

    "far left" my ass.

    simplicity is the most difficult of all things

    by RichardWoodcockII on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:43:20 AM PDT

  •  Part of the problem... (0+ / 0-)

    is that many posters on left-blogs sound like woblies. Although most of them wouldn't know a woblie if one jumped-up and bit them on the ass.

    The other thing is "Those people who think they know-it-all really upset those of us who do!"

    Ever come across any of these types while reading blogs?

    BTW the use of words like "Libruls" and "Repugs" makes one sound like a non-mainstream person.

  •  The media serves a different master that is very (0+ / 0-)

    right, very fascist.  This is what happens when you allow so much concentrated private ownership of functions vital to a democracy and the education of its citizens.  Media needs to be ripped apart and put much more back into the public sphere, under public control and remove the profit motive and scraping for Ads and grants.  This is vital if we are to take our country back.

    You don't negotiate with fascists, you defeat them in the name of democracy. --Ambr. Joe Wilson

    by FightTheFuture on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:49:29 AM PDT

  •  this is EXACTLY (0+ / 0-)

    what mikey moore has been saying for the last 6 years, and you're both absolutely right!

    Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself... Mark Twain

    by jedley on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:50:06 AM PDT

  •  They're trying to protect conservatives (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FightTheFuture

    You know, that group of misguided folks that still think that they make up the majority of this country.

    All forms of Conservatism belong in the trash heap of history and not anywhere near our schools, government or society.

    by Brad007 on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:50:19 AM PDT

  •  The media? (0+ / 0-)

    How about the Democrats? It's our leadership who wants the left to look like the fringe.  The media's following our example.

  •  Center left (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ivan, BraveheartDC

    It is prposterous to think that a blog such as Dailykos is mainstream. At best this is center left. There is nothing wrong with this but it is completely intellectually dishonest to describe a  blog like this as mainstream. This is one of the reasons the democrats lose elections. They are tone deaf about how the average American views the world. Liberty is much more important to the average American than equality. The left is generally about equality. This site is center left at the most. It's time to get off this mainstream idea. It's not true, it's arrogant and it alienates the real mainstream.

  •  To err is human... (0+ / 0-)

    To admit error is to not be involved with the media.

    The media refuse to admit they are wrong. They have set themselves up to be an "impartial observer," even though they are inherently biased and fallible because the humans that run the media are biased and fallible.

    But if they admit they've made a mistake, that what they have been calling for years the "fringe left" (in order to curry favor with the administration) is, in fact, the most centrist and popular opinion, then they will have to fess up to the fact that they are neither all-knowing nor all-seeing. In fact, by this point, they are probably more wrong than the average blogger. Why? Because they spend no time investigating their sources or informing their opinions.

    The media will never admit that they are wrong, and have been wrong. Our only hope is to render them obsolete.

  •  We will keep losing this argument, (4+ / 0-)

    as long as we agree to play into the frame of politics existing on a right-center-left axis.

    It does not.

    It exists on a regressive-neutral-progressive axis.

    You're either making progress and moving forward, standing still, or moving backwards.

    Since 1776, this country has generally chosen to move forward, with only occasional backward slips based on fear, ignorance, and greed.

    I'm proud to be an American Progressive.

  •  I wrote almost the exact same diary.... (0+ / 0-)

    Sorry to 'pimp' my own diary, but I said almost the exact same thing just a few days ago:

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    Blame John McCain for the housing crisis.

    by BlueThunder on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:56:55 AM PDT

  •  I was a "Mainstream Republican" 15 years ago. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cdembrey, GrouchoKossak, brein

    I have the same views--balance the budget, run government programs as efficiently as possible, keep us out of wars unless absolutely necessary, enforce environmental laws but don't overburden industry with unnecessary red tape, enforce anti-trust regulations and encourage entrepreneurship, don't legislate morality, keep a small but viable safety net so we don't have people dying in the streets, etc.--but am now considered a "left wing liberal."

  •  Numbers track deviation from true democracy (0+ / 0-)

    If we had a truly representative democracy, the same number of people would want a higher versus a lower minimum wage.  The same number of people would want the gov't to do more about environmental problems as wanted it to do less.  And so on... but that's not how it is.  There are many shades of democracy, and ours needs a fair bit of work.

    "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." Mark Twain, as quoted by Barack Obama 6/30/08 Independence, MO.

    by SunWolf78 on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:59:52 AM PDT

  •  What positions are considered far left of the (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vacuumslayer

    mainstream? Gay marriage was, but that seems to be itching at least towards acceptance if not approval. Universal Health care? Stem Cell Research? Right to Choose? Against the Iraq war? If they were leftist at one point, they aren't anymore. Could dismantling the military industrial complex and investing the money in health care and free education through college be considered leftist? Free Love? Legal drugs? Rock&role/Rap? Hating neckwear? I'm confused.

  •  they also can't believe 50k is a middle income (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GrouchoKossak, dhshoops

    not 150k.

    fact does not require fiction for balance

    by mollyd on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:02:06 AM PDT

  •  America's Even More "Left" Than That (0+ / 0-)

    Those polls show that America is much more in agreement with liberal blogs than in disagreement. But even though those questions aren't highly biased, they include more bias for the Republican policies on those issues:

    It involves using human embryos discarded from fertility clinics that no longer need them. Some people say that using human embryos for research is wrong.
    [...]
    Favor    Oppose    Unsure
     73        19         8

    How many Americans, when asked that question, are thinking of abortion clinics, after years of hearing "embryos" and "clinics" mentioned only in connection with abortion? How many more points of those 19 "Opposed", or those 8 "Unsure", would be actually in favor of using fertility clinic waste for research? How many are not at all against using "embryos", but just oppose women aborting natural pregnancies, so wouldn't have a problem with this research technique, even though they don't really understand it?

    It's even harder to phrase those other questions in these other polls in ways that don't just trigger fallacious Republican propaganda images. That's the legacy of generations of Republican media control and highly funded propaganda industries, along with an uneducated and anti-intellectual American popular culture. That America can answer those questions with such a relatively high degree of enlightenment shows just how powerful those majority agreements really are. If we could somehow sample America without the deeply coded bias in our mediate language, we'd probably see just how outrageously fringe are the Republican positions that are not only treated as part of the "Mainstream™", but which have held the power to enforce those policies against the will and interest of America for generations.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:02:43 AM PDT

  •  Maybe this is the point . . . (0+ / 0-)

    but opposition to all three of these is out of the mainstream and "radicals" are the people who oppose them.

  •  That's a bit of a fraudulent post don'tya think? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cdembrey

    AFter all, those are not "far left issues. Far left issues would be something like this:

    Should we withdraaw our troops from Afghanistan by the end of next week?

    Should we have apologized to Osama bin Laden and the Taliban for our crimes against Islam in the aftermath of the humane and justified attacks of 9/11?

    Would you be willing to have your bank account, home and car confiscated and given to charity?

    Do you think that you're richer neighbor should have entire life savings, car and house confiscated and given to charity whether or not he or she is willing to give it up?

    Should Israel be destroyed and it's Jewish population be permanently placed in detention camps?

    Should straight, white men be forbidden to attend college as punishment for the crimes of their ancestors?

    Should the Anglo (non-hispanic) populations be evicted from the illegally occupied territories of the Western United States and an ethnically pure "Alzaltan" be founded in the area?

    Did the Vietnamese boat people deserve what they got?

    THAT, my friends, is far left. If you answered to any of the above with a "yes" then you are too.

    •  Perception... (0+ / 0-)

      is reality to many people!

      Your points are a little extreme but you do see some posts that could be perceived that way.

      Do you think that you're richer neighbor should have entire life savings, car and house confiscated and given to charity whether or not he or she is willing to give it up?

      For instance, have people that are in favor of Inheritance Tax ever said anything close to this???

    •  I don't think that's far left so much as batshit (0+ / 0-)

      crazy. Which was probably your point. :)

      vacuumslayer.deviantart.com

      by vacuumslayer on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:52:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Fairness Doctrine being rescinded (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GrouchoKossak

    as someone up above me here pointed out, is a big reason this country is considered conservative or "center-right" as the Repub meme goes.

    If Obama is elected he will name a new FCC commish and hopefully will work on this.

    "...and I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords." --Kent Brockman

    by dhshoops on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:14:26 AM PDT

  •  A lot of newspaper editors and publishers (0+ / 0-)

    are in those small minorities on the far right.

    "Only the most deluded of us could doubt the necessity of this war." Senator John McCain (R-AZ)

    by Pangloss on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:16:51 AM PDT

  •  The media IS the lunatic fringe (0+ / 0-)

    and we are the mainstream. ROTFLMAO.

  •  corporate media (0+ / 0-)

    Let's all boycott newspapers and tv until they get it right...news not opinions

  •  Very selected questions (0+ / 0-)

    On these 4 issues it is apparent that most Americans are moderates. I am not sure why any of the 4 are "liberal" issues. Secondly there are many more questions that would run counter to the left. Our country's energy policy (or lack there of) is a fundamental failure of Congress. The current positions of Pelosi and Reed are examples of why most Americans rate our congress in single digit approval ratings. Why do we not have nuclear power in the same capacities as France or UK? Why are we not gasifying coal? Why don't we have regional nuclear material reclamation plants as do the French? When will someone on the left explain the "back-up" power plant needed to supplement wind power. Why is corn and not sugar the basis of our fledgling ethanol production?
    Why are we still bailing out shareholders at Fannie and Freddie? Please totally review why these institutions were formed and by whom. Please also review exactly has been supporting this companies over too may years.  $200 million in campaign funds may be a reason. Why have we slapped tariffs on Brazilian ethanol?
    Who in Congress is actually leading the fight to end ear marks?
    Illegal aliens??? Please point how how the left is mainstream???
    The real problem is the far left and the extreme right. Us in the middle are seeing the results of this dog fight.....status quo  

  •  Hegemony and mainstream (0+ / 0-)

    The hegemony gets to determine what is mainstream rather than the opinion numbers of mere proles.  If the hegemony says you're far left, then far left you are, live with it because the hegemony isn't changing any time in the foreseeable future.

    A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. ~Edward R. Murrow

    by ActivistGuy on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:27:00 AM PDT

  •  They are trying to dirty us up. (0+ / 0-)

    They destroyed the work liberal, now we have to use progressive. It's hard to dirty progressive; it does start with pro, a positive in most minds.

    So now the meme is we are FAR left, like the FAR right is crazy, so we must be too.

    It's got to be scary to the elite when the middle class wants power. It's not the crazies, it's the middle class. And we can prevail as well. That pedestal must be getting REALLY small by now.

  •  We're Mainstream because We're the Majority (0+ / 0-)

    The "far right" is overwhelmingly controlled by a slim minority of corporate interests and extremely wealthy individuals. So it's no surprise that the counterpoint, the "far left", which represents the interests of the poor and UNcorporoate interests, are the real mainstream.

    Just because the TV and radio media is dementedly conservative, and control most of the airwaves, does NOT make them mainstream.

    Saibotchilizm Blog

  •  This actually works remarkably well for us. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vacuumslayer

    If moderate positions are now called "far left," it completely takes the sting out of that as a talking point for the GOP. "Obama is far left." "Really? So you're saying he agrees with most of us on most everything? Cool!"

  •  Proud to be part of the far left lunatic (0+ / 0-)

    mainstream. The boat is tipping, because we're all moving to the same side!

    My relationship with God is defined not by religion and ritual, but by attitude and action.

    by World Citizen on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:40:31 AM PDT

  •  Who owns the MSM (3+ / 0-)

    Why of course they think we're the fringe.they're The  the owners of most of these media outlets are part of the 2% fringe that owns most of the country and has to portray anyone that disagrees with them as crazy.  I guess that means the majority of us are nutz?

    "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

    by Blutodog on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:47:42 AM PDT

    •  it means we have to take control of our media - (0+ / 0-)

      they are our airwaves, the giant corporations just lease them.  take them back and disqualify those who make giant profits from having giant voices.

      There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States, at this very hour. Fredrick Douglas

      by angry liberaltarian on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:49:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We who are liberal and fiscally conservative (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cdembrey

    in favor of balanced budgets have become the new new new left.

    There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States, at this very hour. Fredrick Douglas

    by angry liberaltarian on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:47:52 AM PDT

    •  You meant social liberal, didn't you? (0+ / 0-)

      I don't see how some can be a liberal and a fiscal conservative. I see fiscal conservatives as being against providing useful govenment programs and providing an adequate safety net.
      I'm a liberal and I like fiscal responsibility, not fiscal conservatism.

  •  A Far Leftist is someone who favors... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jj24
    * Giving up all private property and turning it over to the government.

    * Nationalizing all businesses, closing down open markets, and having them run by the state for the people. Also the people have all the rights, industry pretty much has none.

    * Taking away most power from state and local governments and centralizing that power in Washington.

    In other words, pretty much no one in the United States. The above would also be seen as pretty far leftist in the major socialist industrialized nations of the world such as those in the EU.

    Next time someone uses the far left turn, continuously demand that they send you the quotes by even a third tier Democratic or Liberal politician or pundit who is calling for the above. Wish them luck.

    Then show them the 14 Steps Towards Fascism and tell them there is a 15th one: we do have an active far-right political establishment in power but the media rarely says so out loud despite all 14 steps evident for anyone to see if they want to.

    You've got to be cou-ra-geous, to play the odds that love will win. Whatever city you're in. Was / Not Was

    by Noodles on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:53:18 AM PDT

    •  That is the far left... (0+ / 0-)

      That is the far left if you take the whole worlds ideologies into account. But as you correctly point out "pretty much no one in the United States" supports that ideology. Therefore our local definition of what it means to be "far left" is not so extreme.

      •  Ah, but who specifies that? Isn't it supposed (0+ / 0-)

        to accuse us of being commies? Or over the top socialists (an economic system by the way which seems to be built around capitalism but with more union and government control in some areas of society)?

        Come on, if our detractors are using the whole world's ideology to cast us as pinkos then my definition stands.

        When was the last time you heard anyone use the term
        "the American far left"?

        You've got to be cou-ra-geous, to play the odds that love will win. Whatever city you're in. Was / Not Was

        by Noodles on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 11:10:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for writing this (0+ / 0-)

    I guess I spent too many hours in political theory class. I always though that the "far leftism" was summed up by the term dialectical materialism. Anyone here for expropriating the means of production and advocating a classless society.  

  •  Why are these questions considered left/right? (0+ / 0-)

    Other than the minimum wage, they don't strike me as issues that should be partisan.

  •  Far Left used to mean.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jon Bird

    ...Marxist-Leninists, revolutionary socialists, anarchists, Maoists, radical feminists, LGBT, black liberationists, militant environmentalists and animal liberationists... It still does in most places outside of the US.

  •  The American people are to the far left (0+ / 0-)

    of the establishment.

    The newspapers use the words "American People" to refer to the establishment.

    Therefore, the American people are to the far left of the American People.

    Remember, the spirit of the Volk has nothing to do with actual concrete Volk. Simple, no?

  •  Sour grapes for MSM (0+ / 0-)

    I think a lot of the straw man labeling done by MSM and right wingnuts is the fact that they realize that they don't have a monopoly on information or public opinion through the usual media like they did decades ago. Of course blogs represent a good sample of overall American demographics, they are not going to admit it when they are attempting to achieve ratings and bucks.

  •  Who you callin' mainstream? (0+ / 0-)

    I keep trying to be radical but everybody keeps catching up to me.

    We have only just begun and none too soon.

    by global citizen on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:15:08 PM PDT

  •  A little honesty please (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jon Bird

    Yes/no questions have stark limitations when you are trying to label people.  the Iraq war is not a left/right issue.  Most people dont like it, and the actual "far left" opinion is to pull the troops out yesterday.  If that was the poll, immediate pull out of the troops right now, the results would be different.

    The next question is stem cell research.  I am no expert, but when you ask a question like "here is a type of medical research that involves using special cells, called embryonic stem cells, that might be used in the future to treat or cure many diseases, such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, diabetes, and spinal cord injury. It involves using human embryos discarded from fertility clinics that no longer need them."  It is fairly obvious what you want the answer to be.  Its called a push poll, it essentially means nothing.

    Abortion, the "far left" believes it should be legal in all cases, which puts it in the 19%, the majority of Americans believe it should b illegal, but the majority does not share the far lefts ideas on abortions on demand.  The American public feels there should be limitations. Look at the response Obama got for his "mental distress scenario" and it will show you that the far left fits into the 19%, not the majority by a long shot.

    On  that same site if you look at energy and things like gay marriage, the "far left" is out of the mainstream on both, because Americans overall are against gay marriage, and the far left sees that as the only option,  In energy, Americans is for more exploration, the far left is for zero exploration, zero nuclear, stopping the use of coal etc.  

    Most Americans may be left on center on a majority of issues, but to claim they are in line with the "far left" is a stretch, and almost dishonest.  By far left I mean Dennis Kucinich and left of him, which most of the posters on Dkos fit into nicely.

    •  you are completely full of shit. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      raatz, hhex65, forgore

      the majority of Americans believe it should b illegal,

      No, the majority of Americans favor keeping abortion legal.

      the "far left" believes it should be legal in all cases,

      Bullshit.  You're confusing two issues - "abortion on demand, throughout all 40 weeks of pregnancy" (which calls to mind women in labor asking for an abortion - NO ONE supports this - NO ONE) and access to late-term abortions to save the life and/or fertility of the mother, and in cases where the fetus has no prospect of prolonged life - which most thinking people support.

      If you think I'm wrong, CITE me some links.

      Join us in the Grieving Room on Monday evenings to discuss mourning and loss.

      by Dem in the heart of Texas on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 01:04:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, (0+ / 0-)

        most people have a pretty confused idea of the issue of abortion anyway since the SCOTUS case on which the idea was 'put to rest' is founded on bogus Constitutional Law.

        Legality and illegality, by the way, are different concepts from moral permissibility and impermissibility. It's a pretty fine line, but I'd assess that a moderate majority Americans view the traditional women's liberation abortion platform (we need abortion to liberate ourselves, and take control over our bodies, etc.) as a morally impermissible stance whereas a compassionate viewpoint (abortion when the mother's life or the fetus' life is in danger) is much more likely to be viewed as the moral preference. I'd be willing to bet also that a substantial majority would say that people should be counseled AGAINST having abortions in most cases (again, excepting the health issue of mother and child) in favor of birthing the child and giving it up for adoption. The question ought never have been approached by the SCOTUS, but it was - and even though there may well be legal precedent to back up the Roe decision, the court at the time didn't use any of it and simply drew rights out of thin air (and, oddly enough, implications that it is somehow the federal government's obligation to protect the rights of its citizens - a plain reading of the Constitution will tell you that the opposite is the case).

        So it's a touchy issue. And when you phrase questions in terms of 'most cases,' you miss out on a lot of information - because the criteria for a response becomes inconsistent from person to person.

        I agree that the Iraq question to an extent and the Stem Cell question for sure are invalid polling questions, and their results ought to be discounted (Iraq because a simple yes/no question doesn't capture the gamut of opinions - people like myself, who say we probably shouldn't have gone in but now that we're there we had better do the job right).

        The minimum wage question is misleading primarily because most people don't have a fundamental understanding of economics. An increase in the minimum wage always seems like a good idea - until jobs start to get cut because of it. The people who suffer the most on account of the minimum wage are generally the people it is primarily there to help - poor, unskilled laborers. It's pretty simple - if you have to pay someone more per hour, you expect them to produce more per hour to offset the loss. Most businesses, thus, hire people with a more diverse skill set who work more efficiently - and they tend to hire less of them, since the efficiency increases.

        But most people, I guess, don't know anything about much of anything. Such is the US.

  •  Don't blame the media, they just listen to who (0+ / 0-)

    chooses to control the debate.  Blame our Democratic leadership, who CEDE THE DEBATE.  Blame Pelosi and Reid, and Jay Rockefeller, and Steny Hoyer, and everybody who tries to apologize for the left.  Blame all of them for taking impeachment off the table when there is considerable evidence that crimes have been committed by this administration.  Blame the DLC. (and yes, I like the paygo fiscal discipline too)

    Blame the Democrats for being AFRAID TO BE RIGHT.  We've known all these polls for a decent amount of time.  But our leadership has been staggeringly tone deaf.  When this Democratic leadership offers the same blank check to the president the Republican controlled legislature did in the past, blame them.  

    The good soldiers at the Kos, Move On, TPM and more are isolated voices in the wind to the MSM, because they only really listen to the beltway inside, and our Democratic leadership.  And we have allowed ourselves to be beaten to the rhetorical punch by the Republicans, even though we are right.  

    Only when the Democrats stop being afraid of being right if it means opposing the president will the MSM narrative change.  The media's only bias is ACCESS, and the mainsteam Democrats simply do not carry these messages to the media with any sort of conviction.  

  •  Look at the issues you didn't choose (0+ / 0-)

    Gay Marriage
    Oil Drilling
    Higher Taxes

    Try pilling abortion without rape or incest and the numbers will change

    The upcoming book by yours truly. How the New Deal Democratic Party was Hijacked by Environmentalists, Ethnocentrists, and Peaceniks

    by leftyhammer on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 01:11:22 PM PDT

    •  Also for stem cells (0+ / 0-)

      I  favor allowing all types of stem cell research to be legal. Every stem cell line to be open,

      but I believe in fiscal responsiblity and don't believe government should be footing the bill for it.

      The upcoming book by yours truly. How the New Deal Democratic Party was Hijacked by Environmentalists, Ethnocentrists, and Peaceniks

      by leftyhammer on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 01:14:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Media Are Chasing Butterflies In Right Field (0+ / 0-)

    Most of it anyway. Liberal Media my ass. Almost all of it is way to the right of America. To the point I start wondering which America these people live in. Some like Fox News are so far to the right it is like watching a comedy sketch of the real news.  Only they're trying to be serious. Others branded "Liberal" like "The New York Times" are anything but Liberal. They are Republican Party mouthpieces half of the time. This is why newspaper and magazines circulation and TV News ratings are dramatically down while blogs like Daily Kos are up. We don't need them. I would rather listen to people who live in the real world.

  •  Mainstream? Really? (1+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    UltraLibertarian
    Hidden by:
    bythesea

    http://tossinghandgrenades.wordpress.com

    Is that why Left wing radio and newspapers are failing?

    Because everyone is just eating it all up?

    Rush got a multi million dollar deal, MSNBC is getting hardly any ad $$?

    AirAmerica, gone.

    NYT layoffs.

    USAToday, shortfalls.

    FOXnews, #1.

    Well, follow the money.  Left is a socialist agenda, Americans don't want it.  Face it, you failed.  

    In the face of such failures, would it not be prudent to look in the mirror?

    To think about what you are pushing on free thinking people?

    To think that your attacks on anyone with differing opinions may not be the American way?

    the race card is dead...

    Victimization has run it's course....

    Advancement and personal responsibility is the correct way to live......

    hippies are gone, move on.  Dissention is not the real way.  Objecting to everything the government does because your party is not in power is not answer, the AMERICAN AGENDA is.

    Move on, move on, move on!!!

  •  Corporate media must marginalize greatest threats (0+ / 0-)

    to its owners' domination of US politics--the attitudes, beliefs and expecations of "We the People". By tagging these mainstream opinions "far left" the media machine is engaging in a key tactic of propagandists everywhere: fool the people about themselves, deceive the people about the power they actually wield.

    It is an effective tactic and the controlling forces dominating "democracies" like the US and England have been using it for generations. The idea is simple, inspire the people themselves out of confusion, doubt and fear inspired by "ruling" class propaganda, to self-suppress their natural desire and rightful willingness to collectively and responsibly govern and oversee their own affairs.

    "That which you will not resist and mobilize to stop, you will learn--or be forced--to accept." Impeachment for treason IS an American value.

    by Enough Talk Lets Get Busy on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 02:36:14 PM PDT

    •  The US never has been (0+ / 0-)

      and never will be a Democracy. We are a Republic - and have been from the very beginning. Part of being in a republic is the willingness of the public to sacrifice its freedom to make autonomous decisions and invest that power in a smaller 'ruling class' - which is your Congress and the POTUS.

      That's how it works.

      •  Soooo confusing when corp gov't calls it (0+ / 0-)

        "democracy", isn't it? Beginning as a Rome, fated to end like a Rome, with the inevitable concentration of power, sans effectively policed checks and balances, expressed in an imperial phase, followed by the collapse of the then "republic-in-name-only" socio-political infrastructure. Hail, Caesar.

        Thanks for the poli sci 101 reminder. I'd almost forgotten what I'd learned from my years on capitol hill.

        "That which you will not resist and mobilize to stop, you will learn--or be forced--to accept." Impeachment for treason IS an American value.

        by Enough Talk Lets Get Busy on Sat Jul 19, 2008 at 06:58:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  my view of the poll (0+ / 0-)

    it merely states that we're aren't all sheeps. we have different opinions on different things.

    Iraq: remove troops, oppose war
    Stem cell research: favor
    Abortion: favor all
    Minimum wage: oppose

    --plays well with otters

    by jeepndesert on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 04:49:05 PM PDT

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