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Can't sleep,  Reading the ol' Kos... Geez Louise.
Some of us here in this family have some seriously nasty attitudes.

Full disclosure.  I did my time as an Evangelical Christian.
Studied Buddhism and Wicca to name a couple.
If you care to hear my thoughts, jump.

Imagine if you will:

Fuckin'blacks, who needs 'em?
Jews destroyed this country the last decade. They are all idiots.  Mindless drones.

So why is it OK to talk this way about Fundamentalist Christians?

So, are we the party of tolerance and diversity?  Or do we only feel tolerant of people who think exactly like us?
Do we get to know the person rather than make decisions about a whole group of people based on a few experiences?  How about writing off any given individual because they are a member of a larger demographic that we have decided are Satan's spawn...like gays...  I mean WTF!!!

This sounds like the Fundamentalist Christians raging against the Fundamentalist Muslims. Which is always fascinating to me. Fundalmentalist Liberals hating Fundamentalist Christians. Hatred is hatred.  Now will you tell me why your particular brand of hatred is legitimate?

I am not talking about fighting against ACTIONS that we find reprehensible.  But I thought our party stood for treating ALL people with basic respect.  If I was a Christian looking for a new candidate and came here to take a peek; I would never come back after some of the shit I have read here tonight.

So, you might argue, "I'm not going to show respect to anyone who_____ (fill in the blank as you see fit).  

Well then, your chance at transformation just dropped to zero.  In my work, I deal with people from Great Neck to Harlem. (If you know New York, you will know that is a stretch).  I HAVE to reach out and find common ground with EVERYONE if I have a chance of having them see my point.  Calling people fuckin' morons isn't going to cut it.

We have a good friend who is TYPICAL in his beliefs.  Everything some of you have railed against tonight.  But my husband continued a respectful dialogue over time and has gotten this guy to realize that NO Christian can ever advocate for war even if he himself would like to kick the ass of any given country, because Christ would not approve.
This is HUGE for this guy.

Please folks, separate out behavior from the person themselves. and realize that any particular group or person you may have encountered is not the whole truth. Bigotry is bigotry.  Prejudice is prejudice.  Just because you are comfortable with your own prejudices doesn't make them right.
IMHO  
Peace

Update: Please forgive me if I don't respond further, I am leaving for a 2000 mile motorcycle trip in a couple of hours and I have to load my bike!!  Thanks for the dialogue.  I look forward to reading the rest when I get home.
I will also be looking for Frank Schaeffer, from his book: Crazy for God: How I Grew Up as One of the Elect, Helped Found the Religious Right, and Lived to Take All (or Almost All) of It Back by Frank Schaffer.  Tip of the hat to NCrefugee.

Originally posted to empathy on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 03:14 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Well I just can't tolerate them bigots. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    empathy, marykk, luckylizard, fedupcitizen

    heh.  Well said in this diary.

    There's nothing more ironic than hate-filled Christians, but we're not better than them.  We're all just people.  When are THEY gonna figure that out, damn em!  heh.

    I like the "Great Neck Stretch to Harlem."  Quite a mental image!

    _______________________________
    Healing the universe is an inside job.

    by spotDawa on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 03:21:50 AM PDT

    •  I had an interesting (11+ / 0-)

      experience this week. We ride motorcycles.  My husband has a Harley.  I have always hated that egotism I felt that I saw among Harley riders.  It's like women who have the coach bag and the TIffany necklace and the...whatever sunglasses.
      Well, I broke down and bought a used Harley from the local dealership because it really did fit me better and felt more comfortable that anything else I sat on.
      Really..
      So, these guys have been SO nice and helpful and friendly.  They have NOT made a lot of money off me.
      I had a couple of problems and they did the stand up thing...
      I finally realized that I had as much ego in my, "I don't do logos and status symbols"  as anyone with a Hummer or a Lexus!!!
      Had to kick another preconceived notion to the curb.

      Be the change you want to see in the world.

      by empathy on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 03:37:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Great story. (7+ / 0-)

        I have a similar one that is apropos of your diary and this comment.

        I grew up as a fundamentalist, but being rather detail-oriented and analytical, I took it to the extreme.  If Christianity is "true" then it is a pretty radical concept, and I took it as either something to be lived or nothing at all.  Which is problematic, to say the least.

        Anyway when the lights came on when I was eighteen, I was walking down the street in Gainesville, Texas, when I suddenly noticed that previously, as a very self-righteous Christian, I had looked at everyone through the lens of whether or not they were "saved" -- when this idea became moot, I realized that my judgments of other people had no basis in my reality any longer.  Talk about cognitive dissonance!

        I laughed at how stupid I had been to consider myself different from so many other people, consider myself better than others.  It's been pretty hard to take myself seriously since then, although I give it a pretty good shot most days.

        _______________________________
        Healing the universe is an inside job.

        by spotDawa on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 03:53:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I noticed that among a few Harley owners. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        empathy, marykk

        The only people who think they're superior are people who ride beemers.  ;-D

        On a serious note, I'll admit I'm guilty of this kind of sniping at fundies, but I unleash most of it in instances when religious folk try to turn their particular dogma into law.  Strident Catholics get my goat the most.  My late father was raised a Catholic--he'd sputter whenever the Pope shot off his mouth about something he knew absolutely nothing about (like birth control).  Yet Dad got the gist of Christianity which, I get from my partial reading of the Bible, is tolerance of and compassion towards others.

        The pastor who moderated the forum last night seems like a very understanding man.  In fact, he good as said it when he said he said he heard almost everything while counselling members of his flock.  I only hope he has some sway with the more rabid members of his congregation.

        People never lie so much as after a hunt, during a war or before an election. --Otto von Bismarck

        by Ice Blue on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 05:33:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Beamers...so arrogant. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bronte17, Ice Blue

          but I unleash most of it in instances when religious folk try to turn their particular dogma into law

          I think again, that particular behavior deserves our full assault, because it is a behavior, a specific action towards others.

          Be the change you want to see in the world.

          by empathy on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 06:34:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  yup (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    empathy, spotDawa, luckylizard

    people on the left are no better than people on the right when it comes to ignorance and intollerance.

  •  My sister is a Fundamentalist (5+ / 0-)

    She tells me that I will go to hell if I don't attend a Bible believing church. She thinks she is actually helping me by saying this so I will make the right choice-- to be saved.

    I love my sister and I do not get into arguments with her about her beliefs. She did get me kinda crazy when she commented after George Harrison died that "He never really knew the Lord."

    We believe that there is that of the Creator in every person without exception. This belief comforts me when people attack the Quakers as loonies, lefties, commies, crack pots, etc.

    Have a wonderful First Day.

  •  The difference... (8+ / 0-)

    ...is that being Black or Gay has nothing to do with choice being part of a group that is largly intolerant of other usually engenders a similar reaction from others.

    We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

    by delver rootnose on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 03:43:16 AM PDT

    •  choice, yes. (5+ / 0-)

      But my point is when you demonize an entire group based on YOUR assumptions and beliefs; you are working in ignorance and adding to the hostility.
      Any given Christian may NOT believe what you assume they ALL believe.  Any given member of a any given church could be an extraordinary person.

      We don't have to approve of any given doctrine or behavior. But we also don't have to be vicious to an entire demographic of people.  Argue with opinions and behavior, just don't be a bigot and assume that "those" people are all____".
      Peace

      Be the change you want to see in the world.

      by empathy on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 03:54:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, but I don't agree. (8+ / 0-)

        You say:

        Argue with opinions and behavior, just don't be a bigot and assume that "those" people are all____".

        Let's take the KKK as an example.  I am comfortable in assuming that all people who choose -- and it is a choice -- to join the KKK are bigots.

        By your logic I am in the wrong.  I think not.

        •  point taken (0+ / 0-)

          The difference I believe is the stated goals of the KKK. additionally, I would argue that is someone was born into an active family of the KKK, it would be difficult for them to gain perspective.
          It might take time for the to see straight.  Again, intolerance of the doctrines attitude and behavior is different from hatred of any given individual member of the organization.

          Be the change you want to see in the world.

          by empathy on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 06:37:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  yes but when... (0+ / 0-)

        ..any group acts and professes as a group a certain belief we get to charaterize them by that act of belief.  It is one of the downside to self identification with a group.  If you don't like it don't identify yourself as an 'Evangelical'

        We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

        by delver rootnose on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 02:12:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Bigotry sucks (7+ / 0-)

    but what I can't get my head around is the fact that American Presidential candidates are being interviewed for the job by a religious figure of any kind.  That's seriously messed up.

    Steny Hoyer = a slam dunk argument for term limits

    by jlynne on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 03:44:10 AM PDT

    •  I know (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rogneid, spotDawa

      I guess that is real politik.  This is where we are.
      It is why I could never be an actual politician. I cannot stomach doing things that just feel WRONG to do what needs to be done.

      Be the change you want to see in the world.

      by empathy on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 03:56:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well the Evangelicals have been plotting (4+ / 0-)

      and praying about this very scenario for decades.  The strategy was laid out; run for every office in the land and political party (both of them), from PTA President to POTUS, and take hold of our country for God, Hallejuha!  

      Or maybe Glory, Hellabooyah!

      We see the result, which they deliberately worked toward: change the conversation and grab the microphone.  We've just seen the Presidential Race devolve to the level of a small-town City Council meeting in the boon-docks, where the fringe can easily hijack the agenda just out of pure gall.

      _______________________________
      Healing the universe is an inside job.

      by spotDawa on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 04:06:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  the problem.. (4+ / 0-)

    ...I think, is the centrality of religion in the political process. I have no issue with reaching out to religious voters. I do have issue with the symbolism of the church and its role as the FIRST site where BO and JMc meet for the first time. It suggests religion should play a major role in politics, it suggests we are a Christian nation, and it privileges Christian vewpoints.

    •  "religion should play a major role in politics" (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ice Blue, empathy, marykk, Lopez99

      which gives me the "heebee geebees"

      i moved to SC not long ago and found out that in order to run for public office in this state, you must believe in a "Supreme Being."  

      SECTION 2. Person denying existence of Supreme Being not to hold office.
      No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution.

      i guess you could believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but with the way things are, the opposition would find out how you really believe.  to me, this is a clear violation between church and state.

      Boot out Bushbot Barrett, donate to Jane Dyer SC-03 (vet & union member)

      by sc kitty on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 04:44:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Interesting. I wonder if a belief in the Tao (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        empathy, marykk

        would qualify.  It's definitely a superior force, but it's it's not something Taoists pray to.

        People never lie so much as after a hunt, during a war or before an election. --Otto von Bismarck

        by Ice Blue on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 05:40:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  SHIT!!! (0+ / 0-)

        Is that constitutional?

        Be the change you want to see in the world.

        by empathy on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 06:43:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Its in many state constitutions, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          empathy

          but isn't enforceable.

          A lot of states still have laws on the books that are now moot. It's not really worth the time and expense to go through and expunge those things.

          Besides, it's often embarrassing. Remember Alabama's vote to remove the ban against interracial marriage? It passed, but a sizable percentage who wanted it to remain made the state look really bad.

          I suspect that's the case with the religious qualification law, as well.

          •  In the Alabama vote... (0+ / 0-)

            ...some of that had to do with Chief Justice Roy Moore's campaign that insisted passing that amendment would somehow open the door to a major tax increase.  (Don't ask me to explain that logic, it gives me a headache.)

            Moore actually had decent support from Alabama's black community until the day he adopted that view.  That pretty much killed it.

    •  SO true, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ErinW43

      That Christian Nation thing is one I argue with full throttle with anyone who tries to use it on me.
      You should here the battle I got into with an uncle when he suggested that Creation should be THE science taught in public schools.  
      I said I have no problem with that if they also teach the creation story of the native Americans, and the Hindus.  Boy did he have a fit!

      Be the change you want to see in the world.

      by empathy on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 06:42:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think the question that needs to be asked is... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sc kitty, Ice Blue, Lopez99, fedupcitizen

    How INTOLERANT should one be of INTOLERANCE?

    •  I think aobut eactly that all the time! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SaraBeth

      I think it has to come down to behavior.  Actions and speech that causes harm to others is not OK with me.
      I know that speech is protected under the constitution, but I personally will not tolerate it in my home.

      Be the change you want to see in the world.

      by empathy on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 06:45:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Free speech does not apply (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        empathy

        in one's personal home...only in public places...jointly owned by all of us...  But I hear what you're saying...

        I am often quite torn as to how much a tolerant person CAN or SHOULD tolerate...? Where DO we draw a line, and how do we keep from becoming that which we are so intolerant (i.e. "hate") of?

        Matter of fact, do/should we be drawing ANY lines AT ALL if we are, as we say, "tolerant"? That idea opens up a whole NEW can of worms doesn't it?

        Rather a Catch 22 problem, isn't it?

  •  "Only two things in the world.,,, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ice Blue, empathy

    I can't stand. Those who are intolerant of other's cultures,,,,,and the Dutch" Nigel Powers

    CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. A. Bierce

    by irate on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 04:31:37 AM PDT

  •  I see no problem hating people who hate me (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    unterhausen, empathy

    especially for such an inane reason. The important thing is what you do with that hate.

    Them: intimidate, abuse or kill.

    Me: change, ignore and avoid.

    Hate can be a great motivator. The problem is all the wrong people have been using it. Even the Christian God hates; he hates sin.

    "The road goes ever on." JRR Tolkien --- "Ahh! Arrogance and stupidity in the same package, how efficient of you!" J.M.Straczynski

    by Cofcos on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 04:49:54 AM PDT

    •  I guess we will have to disagree...respectfully! (0+ / 0-)

      ;-)
      I just don't see hatred as useful. I think it causes
      the one who experiences it to lose perspective and the ability to think rationally.

      Be the change you want to see in the world.

      by empathy on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 06:51:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  That was an objective, reasoned criticism. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    empathy

    Enlightened living no doubt! And an ideal to aspire to for reasonable people!

    The Truth is nonpartisan!

    by fedupcitizen on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 05:01:36 AM PDT

  •  I don't hate Fundamentalist Christians but I (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    unterhausen, empathy

    haven't met anyone who would self identify as a fundamentalist who is also a Democrat. That said, I try not to call people morons unless they really are being obnoxious and hateful.

    •  I have no tolerence for them anymore. (0+ / 0-)

      They are blood thirsty hypocrites who'd just as soon put me in a liberal concentration camp. My tolerance with them ended with the UU shooting in Knoxville. Tolerance only empowers bullies, it's time to stand up and punch em in the nose.

      "Yes we can!" Barack Obama "Hey you kids, get off my lawn!" John McCain

      by UndercoverRxer on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:13:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  THEM (0+ / 0-)

        They are blood thirsty hypocrites who'd just as soon put me in a liberal concentration camp

        Do you really think that ALL fundamentalist Christians fit this mold?  

        Be the change you want to see in the world.

        by empathy on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:27:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not exactly on their list of favorite people (0+ / 0-)

        either (feminist, gay, liberal as all get out, etc) and I am certainly not in favor of letting the bullies run over people. However, I think our biggest ally in standing up to these folks has to other Christians who are also frustrated with what these folks are doing. The fundamentalists who really are hateful (I know some who are pretty non-political) sure as hell aren't going to listen to someone like me.

  •  Great points (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    empathy, marykk

    Here are a couple of more. There is an important shift underway in people who call themselves evangelical Christians. Issues like poverty, social justice, peace, and protecting the environment are rapidly increasing in importance, while narrow 'sin' issues such as abortion and sexual orientation are taking a back seat. The sin issues are the pet issues used for political gain by religious conservatives and they are scared of losing influence. However, the message of getting back to the basics of the teachings of Jesus is clicking, especially among the young. Poverty, social justice, peace, and the environment provide a common ground between a growing number of evangelical Christians and progressives. What will sabotage that common ground is ill-informed, mean-spirited, and narrow-minded trashing of the religious by progressives. It will only serve to further the aims of movement conservatives to keep evangelical Christians in the fold. Take a good look at the issues gaining prominence among evangelicals, including Rick Warren, again - poverty, social justice, peace, and environmental protection. Now, tell me what Republicans have done to further those issues?  Not one damn thing. Republicans stand to lose a voting block they have used for a generation to stay in power unless progressives let their prejudices about religion get in the way. I think you have done a nice job in highlighting those reflexive prejudices about religion. The more people we have working to address poverty, injustice, war, and environmental destruction, the more successful we will be in addressing these critical problems. McCain may have solidified his base among conservatives with his warmongering and narrow focus on the hot-button wedge issues, but he failed to appeal to the growing number of evangelicals looking to reduce suffering as a moral imperative.

    Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by DWG on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 05:18:29 AM PDT

    •  I think someone figured out among the way... (0+ / 0-)

      ...that screaming one's head off about gays isn't going to do anything for next month's mortgage payment.

      I know there's a few of us who post here who don't think the political evangelicals we've heard so much in the past speak for all evangelicals or even all fundamentalists, they just make enough noise.  Most people don't agree with the kooks of right wing radio, but they make so much noise that some people think they really do speak for the country.

      So when we complain about the fundie vote it's not all evangelicals, just the noisy ones who think gay marriage is the first thing we should worry about before we consider global warming, the war, the economy, etc.  I think this is a watershed year where that vote is splintering.  But there will always be a group who vote their fears and prejudices, force them on the rest of us and even suggest those who don't hold them are foolish and going to hell.  They will go to their graves feeling that way and bloc voting.  I think they deserve all the challenge and scrutiny they ever get, but even they don't deserve the hate, much as some of them spread it themselves.  

  •  I think the diarist is confusing "prejudice" and (6+ / 0-)

    "discrimination."  It is a necessary fact of life that we each must make many discriminations.  Hopefully those discriminations are rational, based on fact, and can be defended in the context of the Constitution.  But they must be made.  Once they are made common sense requires that one must thereafter accept some things and reject others.  

    I reject those who reject science.  I reject those who rely on supernatural beings to explain the world.  I reject those who discriminate without justification.  I reject those who do not follow the Golden Rule, well that is my version of the Golden Rule:

    You are to love your neighbors as yourself, and in order to do this you must protect and defend your neighbor's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

    The fundamentalists I have known all my life follow a different Golden Rule:  

    You are to love your neighbors as yourself, and in order to do this you must convert your neighbors to your religion, or political party, or gender, or skin color, or sexual preference.

    I reject the fundamentalist view of life.  It is not rational, it is not based on fact, and it is contrary to the Constitution.  

    If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

    by hestal on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 05:27:05 AM PDT

    •  Pre Judge (0+ / 0-)

      TO prejudge anyone before you have gotten to know them based on your previous experience and not to be open to who they may ACTUALLY be is a mistake.
      You will automatically be looking to be proven right and miss other qualities.
      Whether you are predisposed to like them in which case you may not pick up their slimier qualities until later because you are not really paying attention.

      think rejecting a point of view is fine, I am just concerned about rejecting a group of people out of hand and with the vehemence that I saw here last night.

      Be the change you want to see in the world.

      by empathy on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 06:59:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree. Fundamentalists have caused (0+ / 0-)

        enormous harm to our country.  They have been the greatest purveryors of bigotry throughout our history.  People who accept the fundamentalist point of view surely know what they are doing.  They accept the bigotry.  Therefore it is no longer necessary to give them the benefit of the doubt.  A wise person will be wary, very wary, of fundamentalists.  If a fundamentalist, who surely must know the reputation of his belief system, wants to extend a hand of friendship then I am ready to accept it, but only with caution.  

        A member of a group that openly hates homosexuals is not someone I want to give the benefit of the doubt to.  Such a person is not worth my time and attention.  These fundamentalists have never given me the benefit of the doubt.  For many decades I have had to live with their disapproval of my lifestyle and I am straight -- but I am not Christian.  They treat homosexuals much worse than they treat me.  So I automatically believe that any friend of fundamentalism is no friend of mine.

        There is one exception and that is that children cannot choose their parents.  I never interfere with the beliefs of a child unless he is mine.  The child of fundamentalist parents is always treated with deference by me.  I go out of my way to make them feel welcome in my home or anywhere I meet them.  In fact I am an old man who is a former golf coach and who plays golf almost daily.  Many times I play with young men on the local high school golf team.  We enjoy each other's company very much.  Most of these young men are the children of fundamentalist parents and they do not for a second suspect that I am strongly opposed to the beliefs of their parents.

        I am sympathetic to an adult who marries a fundamentalist.  He/she might not have understood what they were getting into.  But I still will challenge their bigotry should they display it, no matter their newness to the idea.

        Fundamentalists take advantage of reasonable who are trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.  They think people who let them get away with their unamerican actions are nothing more than suckers.  I know it is true.  I have seen and heard it all my life.  I have been submerged in the fundamentalist culture all my life, not by choice, but by family circumstances.  My ancestors came to this part of Texas generations ago and they have watched as the social world around them has become infested with extreme fundamentalism.

        But many people say, and you might be one of them, that you must treat fundamentalists with "respect" if you want to convert them, but that is not the American Way.  We Americans should not be trying to "convert" anyone to any point of view.  What we should do is accept that fundamentalists exist and they, along with their hatred and bigotry, will always exist, and so we should try to organize our systems to keep them from doing harm when they inevitably gain power.  The present political and Constitutional System do not have that capability.  We need a change.

         

        If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

        by hestal on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:31:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I discriminate against stupidity. (0+ / 0-)

      And they are the living example of stupidity.

      "Yes we can!" Barack Obama "Hey you kids, get off my lawn!" John McCain

      by UndercoverRxer on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:15:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They are all stupid... (0+ / 0-)

        That just strikes me as the flip of; all Liberals are_____(insert derogatory comment)
        Shia and Sunni; same shit. Haitians and Jamaicans; same shit.  Norweigasn and Swedes; believe it or not although with a smile and politeness.;-)
        I don't think this game leads us anywhere positive or constructive.

        Be the change you want to see in the world.

        by empathy on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:32:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Wrong (0+ / 0-)

    it IS OK to talk this way about Fundamentalist Christians.

    When they admit that an atheist or agnostic has a right to equal treatment under the law, then that might change. When they admit that faith cannot over rule fact or science, then no one will bother to talk about them.

    "Dad could hardly have imagined how they would help facilitate the instantly corrupted power-crazy new generation of evangelical public figures like Ralph Reed, who took money from the casino industry while allegedly playing both sides against the middle in events related to the Abramoff Washington lobbyist scandal."
    -- Frank Schaeffer, from his book: Crazy for God: How I Grew Up as One of the Elect, Helped Found the Religious Right, and Lived to Take All (or Almost All) of It Back:

    -----
    "Long before Ralph Reed and his ilk came on the scene, Dad got sick of these idiots' as he often called people like Dobson in private. They wereplastic,' Dad said, and `power-hungry.'"
    -- Frank Schaeffer, from his book: Crazy for God: How I Grew Up as One of the Elect, Helped Found the Religious Right, and Lived to Take All (or Almost All) of It Back:

    ------
    "There were three kinds of evangelical leaders: The dumb or idealistic ones who really believed. The out-and-out charlatans. And the smart ones who still believed - sort of - but knew that the evangelical world was sh*t, but who couldn't figure out any way to earn as good a living anywhere else."
    -- Frank Schaeffer, from his book: Crazy for God: How I Grew Up as One of the Elect, Helped Found the Religious Right, and Lived to Take All (or Almost All) of It Back:

    The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

    by NCrefugee on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 06:35:57 AM PDT

  •  did we learn anything about McShit's faith (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    empathy

    last night? We learned he likes wars.

    •  Agreed (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      larryww

      and in case anyone thinks I am holier than thou,
      my favorite name for George Bush is Chimpy McFuckup.
      I know it is not me at my finest but.....and it makes me laugh every time.

      Be the change you want to see in the world.

      by empathy on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 07:02:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  RE: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hestal

    Tolerance does not mean one tolerates intolerance.  The religious right openly and blatantly promotes discrimination against homosexuals.  Until they stop doing that, they can go screw.

  •  I disagree. Sorry. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hestal

    I have very little tolerance for dishonesty -- and it's dishonest to create a false "middle ground" for the sake of "tolerance."  If it's a disagreement over my freedom of action conflicting with your freedom of action, there's room for compromise and it's a legitimate political question.  But if the disagreement is over whether my freedom of action interferes with your religious beliefs, there's only room for compromising core American law and values.

    The abortion issue is not about "protecting life."  It's about governmental authority.  The government either has the right to decide whether or not you have an abortion or it doesn't. The answer to that question can't depend on when you think "human life begins."

    The government either has the right to control your sexuality or it doesn't.  The answer to that question has nothing to do with whether God says homosexuality is a "sin."  It's a simple yes or no question about government authority over your person.

    You either believe that control over your body is a political decision for the majority or you don't.  Yes or no.  No compromise.  No middle ground.  No "tolerance."

    The facts are the lies the other side can get away with.

    by legalarray on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 07:53:50 AM PDT

    •  I agree about the issues (0+ / 0-)

      My point is fighting over issues; rather than denigrating a group of people with a broad brush and hateful rhetoric.

      Be the change you want to see in the world.

      by empathy on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:34:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, of course, but (0+ / 0-)

        how do you fight over the issues when their starting point is an appeal to religious dogma - their own internal, irrefutable, premises, and insistence that you are arguing with God?

        Roe v. Wade was the recognition of a conflict between the government and the individual and, in a heroic effort at compromise, ceded some personal rights to the  will of the majority.  The religious rights' complaint about Roe v. Wade is that it is a compromise.

        Once you conclude that the only question for them is whether they are going to get their way, the only thing you are left with is one of two arguments: "You are stupid," or "You are evil."

        The facts are the lies the other side can get away with.

        by legalarray on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:11:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Hate to break this to you. (0+ / 0-)

    How about writing off any given individual because they are a member of a larger demographic that we have decided are Satan's spawn...like gays...  I mean WTF!!!

    This one has already been done.  With Christians leading the way, unfortunately.  And since Jesus mandated His followers to do unto others as they would have done unto them, the really vocal Christians are being done unto as they did unto the others.  According to His word.

    You might also read Jesus' job description for His followers.  At this point I'd follow JC's instructions and rejoice and be glad.  

    If we have to account for our lives when we die, then is God being an investment banker, rather than being generous?

    by grada3784 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:52:48 AM PDT

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