I need help. I'm in an argument with a conservative about sex-education but now the discussion has moved to the government involvement in our lives. How do I win? What should I say? Any suggestions?
See our LONG conversation below the fold.
Btw her responses will make you laugh.. :]
Some background info. This conversation is ongoing in a Myspace group. Other people were talking about Sarah Palin and then the topic moved to sex education. Here is this girl named Sarah's conversation and mine below. She's for only bare bones abstinence education and I'm for comprehensive sex ed.
Sarah wrote:
Do you honestly not believe that Bristol didn’t know what a condom was or were babies come from?
It isn’t up to the government to make up for what some parents will and wont do. Period. The government is not you’re or my parents it isn’t up to them what gets taught. Public school is just that... public. If you want your children to be taught something other than some basics then put them in a private school.
You’re right sex ed doesn’t have to be taken but here’s the thing abstinence education is going to to speak to the fact that by having sex you can die or get pregnant. People aren’t going to pull their children out of a class that simply states the only way to 100% avoid this is not to do it. They will however pull their children out of a class that that gives options outside of their religious beliefs. Not only is "safer sex" ed intolerant of the cultural diversity in public schools it’s also not going to reach as many children because of the deep seeded religious beliefs of only the nationals but the immigrants to this country. I guess they should just throw their silly beliefs away.
My response:
I’m sorry.. I don’t care if someone is religious and doesn’t want their kids being taught sex ed. Well then they can pull their kids out if they want to. That is what separation of church and state is for. Comprehensive sex-ed should be taught in public schools. Kids will have sex no matter if you teach them abstinence only or not. We have to provide comprehensive education about abstinence, STD’s, birth control, the whole lot. I remember that my mom never talked to me about sex. She left it up to the school. We cannot leave a topic as crucial as this up to parents because most people I know has never gotten the sex talk from their parents.
Her response:
um no.
What your saying is that you don’t care if a large majority of people don’t get the education that you think is right. Fine then i think kids should be forced to say the lord prayer in school. Honestly it’s the same thing to me.
Comprehensive sex-ed should be taught in homes .
"Kids will have sex no matter if you teach them abstinence only or not."
really? I live in a state with a lot of religious Mexican immigrants. I know a lot of people who are still virgins. I know a lot of people who didn’t have sex until marriage.
If you want to go off personal experience though. I had sex ed in HS were the teacher told me that a bisexual flight attendant spread aids and that aids is what happens to fags. I don’t trust the government to deliver my mail why in the world would i trust them with my children? get real.
When i decided to have sex i knew it was risky. the thought of death was all it took and i found out how to be safer.
I’m sorry that your parents didn’t feel it necessary to talk to you about sex... it’s not the governments responsibility to look out for your welfare that’s just the end of the story for me. Self reliance.
My response:
"What your saying is that you don’t care if a large majority of people don’t get the education that you think is right. Fine then i think kids should be forced to say the lord prayer in school. Honestly it’s the same thing to me."
There is such thing as separation of church and state. Religion shouldn’t dictate what gets taught in schools. If you want your kid to be taught religion in school then bring them to a private school.
"Comprehensive sex-ed should be taught in homes . "
I agree. But it should also be taught in school. It is for society’s own benefit that we do so in order to reduce unwanted pregnancies and STD’s. We can not leave it up to parents only.
"really? I live in a state with a lot of religious Mexican immigrants. I know a lot of people who are still virgins. I know a lot of people who didn’t have sex until marriage."
I know. I’m not saying that everyone has sex. It is known that most do though. Here is an article gotten from the U.S. government: http://www.cdc.gov/...
About one-third of girls in the United States get pregnant before age 20. In 2006, a total of 435, 427 infants were born to mothers aged 15–19 years, a birth rate of 41.9 live births per 1, 000 women in this age group.1 More than 80% of these births were unintended, meaning they occurred sooner than desired or were not wanted at any time. 2 Although pregnancy and birth rates among girls aged 15–19 years have declined 34% since 1991, birth rates increased for the first time in 2006 (from 40.5 per 1, 000 women in this age group in 2005 to 41.9 in 2006).
Major disparities exist in pregnancy, birth, sexual transmitted diseases (STDs), and HIV rates. In 2005, Washington, D.C., had the highest teen birth rate in the country (63.4 per 1, 000), and states Texas and New Mexico with the highest rates (61.6 each); New Hampshire had the lowest teen birth rate (17.9).4 In 2006, the overall birth rate for 15– to 19– year-old females was 41.9, but—
* the rate was 83 among Hispanics (twice the overall rate),
* 63.7 among non-Hispanic blacks (however, blacks have a slightly higher teen pregnancy rate than Hispanics),
* 54.7 among American Indian or Alaska Natives, and
* 26.6 among non-Hispanic whites.
Sixty-nine percent of HIV/AIDS cases diagnosed in 13– to 19– year-olds in 2005 were among black youth, although only 17% of youth in the 33 reporting states were black. Among male youth aged 13–24 years, the vast majority (over 75%) of HIV/AIDS cases involve transmission of the virus through male-to-male sexual contact.5 Among females aged 13–24, the main route of HIV/AIDS transmission is through high-risk heterosexual contact (85% of cases).5 CDC’s 2006 STD Surveillance Report show higher rates of all STDs among minority racial and ethnic populations when compared to whites, with the exception of Asians/Pacific Islanders. While some of these disparities may be because of increased testing and reporting among some populations; such as, public health clinics, much work remains to improve health promotion and prevention efforts among youth and communities facing these disparities in adolescent reproductive health.
What More Needs to be Done?
International comparisons show that the United States could do much better in improving teen pregnancy and birth rates. U.S. teen pregnancy and teen birth rates are the second highest among 46 countries in the developed world. 3 These data show that U.S. teens’ sexual behavior is similar to teens of other developed countries in terms of when they start to have sex and how often they are having it. Yet, U.S. teens are less likely to use contraception or to consistently use more effective methods of contraception when compared to the teens of several other developed countries. 6 Recent data show that 77% of the decline in teen pregnancy rates among U.S. teens aged 15–17 years is because teens have increased their use of contraception and 23% of the decline is because teens are having less sex.7 Among older U.S. teens, 18– to 19– years-old, these data show that all the reduction in pregnancy risk was related to increased contraceptive use.Organizations such as Advocates for Youth* and the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy* have identified effective programs to promote healthy decision-making among teenagers; such as, reducing numbers of partners, delaying initiation of sex, and increasing contraception and condom use. Although this is encouraging, much work remains to identify additional innovative interventions that address the social, cultural, and environmental influences on teen pregnancy. There is also a need to find better ways of disseminating evidence-based approaches to teen pregnancy prevention, so that effective interventions are more widely used.
"If you want to go off personal experience though. I had sex ed in HS were the teacher told me that a bisexual flight attendant spread aids and that aids is what happens to fags. I don’t trust the government to deliver my mail why in the world would i trust them with my children? get real."
I’m sorry that happened to you. But does that mean that we should cut out sex ed? No.
Her response:
I’m still completely floored that you trust a group of people who can’t get an envelop from point a to point b to talk to kids about sex.
The remark about prayer in school is the same... pick whatever other topic you want. what you are saying is that your view of sex education that we need to force condoms and birth control onto the youth of America is more correct than that someone who has morals against it. Well that’s not right I’m sorry it isn’t. you have just as much right to force your lack of morals on to someone as they do to force their morals onto you. When half the school is pulled out of the big condom talk is that really effective?
You haven’t sold me in the least bit as to why it should be taught in school? I know the outcomes i know the statistics i understand teen pregnancy and STDS and blah blah blah... I’m not asking for a cut and paste of stats. I’m asking why another dollar of my tax money should be spent on this. I don’t have kids. I wouldn’t feel weird about talking to them about sex if i did why should i have to pay for the stupidity of others?
A private company really needs to come and fill this void. Making private sex ed companies that will have the sex talk for you would be a good idea.
My response:
I am sorry but there is something called separation of church and state. I do not care what religion anyone is, there is something called separation of church and state. Lack of morals? I didn’t attack you personally, so don’t attack me. My viewpoint is, you cannot rely on abstinence only because it is ineffective. When something isn’t working you change it. And abstinence only isn’t working. It’s that simple. Well I’m sorry, there are rules and separation of church and state is one of them. You cannot force your viewpoints that are based on religion on other people. Get over it!
Well look at it this way.. If you’re so worried about tax dollars. It is known that comprehensive sex ed reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies and STD’s. By providing sex ed you eliminate unwanted pregnancies and thus reduce the burden of the taxpayer to pay for welfare, healthcare, housing and such when the mother can’t afford to support a child.
Haha lmao That is the funniest thing I ever heard. A private company?!?!? Yeah right.. I already don’t trust the oil, pharmaceutical, healthcare, and on and on. I trust the government more then a business.
Her response:
I’m sorry I’m more or less a satanist i don’t have morals. I don’t see where pointing out a lack of religious morals is an attack.
There is separation of church and state I was using forcing morals onto someone as an example. Why should anyone be forced to pay for something they feel is wrong?
Abstinence itself is not ineffective. it is actually the only 100% safe sex.
but that’s what you are trying to do with your lack of morals (again not attacking just pointing out that you lack that morals that dictate to not have sex before marriage).
yeah why should i pay for that?
that’s really sad. so the government should just take care of you then? why don’t you move to a communist country? I’m not being facetious, it sounds like you would be much happier there. OR you could join a commune and drop out of America all together more or less.
My response:
Yes abstinence works but abstinence only education doesn’t.
I’m a virgin actually. I just mind my own business when it comes to the bedroom.
Wow.. :O I had a discussion about this with my other liberal friend.
Conservatives= "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" "who gives a fuck if people don’t have health care, food, shelter, clothes, or a job. as long as I’m doing fine in my bubble. who gives a fuck"
Liberals= "i am my brother’s/sisters keeper" "it takes a village to raise a child"
I’m sorry but I rather pay higher taxes and know everyone in this country is doing alright then buy trivial shit like an ipod. I mean look at Europe. I believe it was Denmark that I saw a special on. Yes they have higher taxes but everyone doesn’t have to pay for college, health care, etc. Plus they receive l believe it was 1-2 months off a year PAID. No wonder they were ranked the happiest country.
I’m not saying government should take care of us. I’m saying why do I deserve health care and a child in LA doesn’t? Why do I deserve a chance at college ant a 40 yr old man in Ohio with the same potential doesn’t? Why do all rep. say that when you complain about America? I’m sorry but I love America enough to criticize and help CHANGE IT. I wouldn’t leave this country. I care to much about it and the people inside it. There is too much work to be done.
Her response:
you do realize this country was founded by anarchists who hated the government and wanted to be free of it’s role in their life right?
I don’t go around calling people who are against the war anti american. I don’t give a shit if you burn the flag. I actually find that pretty f’ing American. Rioting in the street = American. Complain about America ALL day i think it’s American to open your mouth and do that. HATE THIS COUNTRY! it’s American to do so.
Saying that the government should in anyway take care of us, provide us with health care, food, shelter, sex ed... etc. is un american to me. The founding fathers found that sort of overbearing government to be tyrannical. they left, faught a war, people died it was pretty bloody. They did this to be free of what you are purposing. So yes wanting to forget all of that and go back to what they faught against is un American. You’re sitting Europe... we left there for a reason. We wanted to be self reliant. That is exactly why i see you as un American and think you should leave.