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Okay, I'll say it.  I'm sick of hearing Democrats praise John McCain's service.  Every time I turn the news on, there's some Democrat pundit or politician praising McCain's service and honoring his POW years.  Well, this old Sarge has tired of his story, his service, his whole deal.  In case the right wing in this country didn't notice.  There were millions of men and women who served and fought in the Vietnam War and over 58,000 of them have their names on that wall in Washington.  Those good Soldiers, Marines, Airmen, and Sailors gave their all and I'm betting every one of them would trade spots with John McCain, who came home, married a pretty rich girl and made himself famous talking about duty, honor and country.

Yet every day, some Democrat gets on national TV, brags about what a hero McCain was, and digs the Democratic grave just a little bit deeper.  If we keep worshiping at the altar of McCain we'll end up helping elect him.

I believe there is a certain element in our party looking for a reason to vote for McCain and every time a Democrat praises his service I see votes slipping away.  He's not the first POW or the first hero in the county.  We stood around and let John Kerry, an actual hero get screwed by the same guys working for McCain, yet we jump at the chance to salute McCain.  Does anyone think more Republicans will cross over to Obama because we're being so polite to McCain.  Wake up people!  Quit kissing this guys ass.  He's a lying, cheating, anti-women, anti-gay, prick who want to expand this war til it's all over the globe. Do everything you can to defeat McCain and his nutty VP.  Never talk about his POW history.  If someone tells you McCain's a hero, you tell them after he came home, he left his wife, Carol, a woman who had been crippled in a car wreck and had faithfully waited for his horndog ass for years.  And when he came home, he left her for a rich girl half his age. Is that the man we want in the White House?

I'm sick of McCain running on duty, honor and country too.  We all did our duty when we served in Vietnam, Korea, WW2 and the wars guys like John McCain have our children fighting today and John McCain didn't do his duty a bit more than my buddies Duty is not something you brag  about--it's something you do, even when you don't want to--especially when you don't want to.  

McCain has forgotten what his duty is.  It's shown in every vote he's made on Veteran's issues.  He's sure not living up to his duty as a veteran or a Senator.  He tells us he's on the vets side and I wish he were, but vote after vote he's voted against us and I keep thinking, McCain has money and he was a fighter jock.  No offense to any former fighter jocks, but you guys were assholes who thought they were a better class of people than to lowly proles who kept your airplane in the air.  (Sorry a little repressed class envy jumping up here.)

What is honor to John McCain?  If, in the Naval Academy, he had told the lies he tells us now, he would have been kicked out for violation of the Honor Code.  Is honor something you have as a Navy schoolboy and then discard later in life when honor becomes an inconvenience. McCain has sunk so low and is so desperate to win, he has hired the same dishonorable liars who Swiftboated his ass in South Carolina with the black baby story.  I'm no expert on honor, but I know something about self-respect and McCain has lost all self-respect and gone with it is my respect and that of many other vets. Our veterans should be first in line for education and healthcare. Not all of us came home and married a beer heiress.  

Win at any cost!  That's what passes for honor for war hero, John McCain.  While we sit here in an America being led to hell by draft-dodging war criminals, John McCain and his honorable crew are hot on the  trail of lipstickgate.  Is this the honorable race he promised he would run?  Didn't he claim he'd be running a clean campaign, that the old crooked, dirty way of campaigning would be a thing of the past.  

If you want to see a Senator who lives by the honor code learned at the Naval Academy, take a look at Senator Jim Webb from Virginia.  Webb pushed the new GI Bill through Congress the same way he he's done everything, tough and out there fighting for the little guy.  Though he would never say so, Webb is a real war hero.  When Webb promised he would work for Veteran's issues, he did it. With Webb's new GI Bill, the United States will build a new middle-class from veterans who would have had no chance to attend college.  It's what happened after World War Two when men like my father, an oil field laborer, got an education and spent his life working as a county agricultural agent.  Instead of being a roughneck all his life, my Dad got to work with farmers and help them build a good enough life to where those their sons and daughters could go to college.  This is what can trickle down. My grandfather could not read and could only draw his name.  My Dad went to college, as did I and my daughter just graduated Summa Cum Laude.  It is all due to the GI bill that this incredible change in opportunity came to my family. This is how we make a country grow--not through rich men getting richer, but by educating our children and our veterans.  That's real investment in American, not in John McCains tax breaks for the wealthy.

So the next time you hear about war hero John McCain, you tell the truth, I don't honor his time spent in the Hanoi Hilton. I know they were hard times for him, but did he learn anything?  When his Hanoi Hilton buddies were nursing him back to life, did he learn compassion?  No, he came out of that prison with nothing but raw ambition, ready to betray his wife and his fellow veterans.  Something happened to John McCain while he was a POW.  He came home there with nothing left in his heart.  At some point, the  Vietnamese must have hit him so hard they knocked the all the good left in him.  Though his life was saved by other POW's with him, he left Hanoi without a lick of compassion for others who need help like just like he did.  

John McCain was damaged beyond recovery during his POW days.  They did torture him and beat him til he was half-dead.  I could not have taken what he withstood, but the ability to take a beating is not what I'm looking for in a President and someone must say out loud that John McCain has been more than fairly rewarded for those years.  The best of John McCain was left in the Hanoi Hilton.  He may have survived the ordeal, but he left his honor in Hanoi and every time he votes against me, against those kids coming home from Iraq, against everything he claimed to stand for he proves he is not the man he was or the good man he could have been and for that, I do feel sorry for John McCain.  

We've come a long way in this county just to take a giant leap backward.  So when someone tells you John McCain is a hero--you tell them about those 58,000 men and women who will not be voting this year and you tell them now is not the time to waste their vote on sentiment and a good story.  Now is the time to get tough and vote for this country and the people who who are dying every day to enrich John McCain's oil glutted pals.  Now is the time to honor our veterans, not by voting for a guy who wraps himself in the flag, but for a man who honors what that flag stands for,

 

Originally posted to Nick Stump on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 11:59 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Thank you for this diary (8+ / 0-)

      and thanks even more for your service.

    •  Thank you (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nick Stump, sherijr

      For your service and for speaking out.

      How do I know what I think 'till I see what I write?

      by JRandomPoster on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 12:32:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  McCain (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      carver

      I do not respect McCain at all...not for his service, not for his years as a POW. There was a monument at my old high school of the boys that did not return from Nam. I went to DC and I have seen the Wall, I saw my husband off to Nam and my brother. Our generation gave to that war. JM was a cheerleader for another war...Iraq.

      I have seen reports of JM admitting to the Cong that America targeted hospitals, schools, temples...etc. That he made 32 propaganda films for the Cong. That he was called The Prince by the Viet Cong and SongBird by other POWs. He comes back and dumps his wife...he comes home and falls into a cushy job,marries a rich woman, he comes home and joins the Congress...then the senate..he gets a failing grade from the vets, he votes against what will help the vets, he throws the families of MIA's out of his office, he accuses other POWs  for being collaborators...blocks the release of classified info on the records of POWs. Respect him? No. He has no honor, no strength to fight for anything but his lobbists...which he has also lied about. He has used every dirty trick possible on Obama. The way you run your campaign is the way you will run your country. That shows who you are. I don't like who he is.I am a Wiccan, in our religion there is an old scottish word that means you have no honor, they betray their own..Worlock, a betrayor.

      "I believe that imagination is stronger than knowledge, that dreams are more powerful than facts, That hope always triumphs over experience."

      by terra gazelle on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 12:52:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  terra on the POW issue (0+ / 0-)

        I was there when Baron 54 (56)( can't recall the number. I knew two of the guys in the back end of that plane.  I was an intelligence analyst in the Air Force.  Though I knew from the NVA messages intercepted that night was widely interpreted in our unit to say there were 4 guys who parachuted out and were later captured, our intercepts were discredited by US officals and folks in the NSA.

        This shootdown happened over Laos after we had signed the peace treaty and were not supposed to be flying over Laos.  After a while and with all the talk about how everyone was accounted for, I finally began to think the government was right. If Mccain and John Kerry said they were accounted for, that was good enough for me. I always felt a little uncomfortable with the POW/MIA groups.  I thought they were a little nutty and it seemed to me we had made a good effort to find out the truth and as time went on I forgot about Baron 54 or 56.

        I was home one night and watching a tv show called the Unit. It's about the Delta Force and is a good shoot-em-up.  The producer is a guy named Eric Haney and I read in some magazine that he had been a member of Delta Force.  For those that don't know, Delta is the most elite of our special forces and those guys are very good.  

        I was in a used book store a few days later and saw a book called Inside Delta Force, written by Eric Haney. I picked it up, liking the show, I figured it would make a good read.  I like reading military history and enjoy reading some of the lighter side of that subject.  

        In the book Haney said that two times in the 80's his unit trained at Ft Bragg for a rescue mission.  They had a mocked up prison camp based on actual photos of that camp in Lao and to my complete shock. (this was about a year ago, mind you), Haney said they were training for a real rescue mission to be done on that camp in Lao, where he says there were more than 300 American POW's.  I thought my heart was going burst out of my chest.  

        I'm no conspiracy theorist and really don't care for all the nuts who have penentrated the anti-war movement so that at every demonstration you see 9/11 conspiracy nuts and the rest of those who have some nutty cause.

        But when I read what Haney said and how they were shut down every time because some retired Colonel would essentially spill the beans and Delta would have to back off.  Finally the mission just died and no one ever said to Haney and his guy what had happens.  

        Haney think the NVA finally killed all the POWs because they were evidence of what was going on.  I worry it might be even more dangerous to a guy like McCain.  So that's the story.  I was there at a listening post in Northeast Thailand that I can't even find any real info about til this day--a few hits but nothing more than GI's going back there as tourists.  We were convinced some of the guys got out, but nothing found could ever prove it.  But i know McCain and Kerry said everything was just fine and Eric Haney says there were 300 of those guys still in Laos, alive in the 1980's.  I never have talked about this and I'm not a POW crazy.  I just thought I'd tell you what I know about one story and no, I do think John McCain would lie about this in a minute.

        Aorry about the long trip down memory lane, but this is as I remember that time in Feb 1973.  Make of it what you will, but I'm a damned guitar player not a POW expert.

        •  Remember this: (0+ / 0-)

           McCain has no honor because this fiasco with the
          POW families in the hearings was not a mystery: they
          were complications for him when commercial relations started up again with Vietnam years after the peace
          deal and his friends got in on the ground floor.

           As you say Nick,there is no honor there. He wants the POW issues settled and the book closed. It distracts from the really important work of growing a profitable company for another of his cronies.

          To strive,to seek,to find, and not to yield. 1843 high school motto, Rhode Island.

          by Pete Rock on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 06:29:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you for your service - and for speaking out (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueyedace2, Nick Stump, bottles

    here!

  •  I realize I just made some enemies, but it's time (17+ / 0-)

    to quit rolling over and make a stand for what the flag really stands for.  

    •  Only enemies you made are ones not reachable (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nick Stump, Front Toward Enemy

      anyways...Thanks you for the pleasure

    •  No enemies here. Great diary. (3+ / 0-)

      We need more servicemen and women speaking their thoughts on this election.

      Sarah Palin, a Trojan Moose carrying four more years of disaster.

      by jazzence on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 12:07:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  if you made any enemies... (0+ / 0-)

      ...they're entirely worth having as enemies.

      McCain talks about his time as a P.O.W. so much because, as far as I can tell, that's the last time he had any actual honor.  He sure as hell doesn't wanna discuss what he's doing now.

      And the Democrats praise it so much because we don't want to be like the Republicans.  They slandered Max Clelland, they slandered John Kerry... they even made a joke of the Purple Heart by making stupid band-aids to wear at their convention.  We've seen how ugly that is, and we wanna make sure we're not guilty of it.  So, we go overboard with it at times.

      Any good McCain did is in the past.  Now he's just another slimeball.

      Thanks for your service, and your diary.

      •  Max Cleland's deal killed me (2+ / 0-)

        How much does one man have to give before he quits getting screwed by the right wing.  I guess they want the other arm.  That was a shameful deal and those folks that did in Max will spend eternity in the same circle of hell where Judas resides.

        Kerry made the crucial mistake of not fighting back when he should have.  We sure can't take many more mistakes of that magnitude.  

        Rove and company know how to win elections and we won't start winning until we learn how to hit back.  Hell, we thought the race was over when we beat Hillary.  It's hubris and hubris is a disease passed from one generation of Democrats to the next.  We used to know how to fight, but somewhere along the line we forgot and we've paid for it with eight years of George Bush.  

    •  No enemies... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nick Stump

      Isn't that what honor means, to stand up for what might be hard, but is right...? Sounds to me that you have walked your talk in your life.

      Thank you.

      "I believe that imagination is stronger than knowledge, that dreams are more powerful than facts, That hope always triumphs over experience."

      by terra gazelle on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 12:57:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't claim honor (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        carver

        I've screwed up too much to have that title.  But I still recognize it in others.  Standing up for the right thing in spite of what others say is honor.  The best example I see in Congress is Jim Webb, though he'd probably punch me in the nose if I told him that he had honor.  I love the way he treats vets, and is everything to me.  

        I know Webb has made votes I didn't like, but he sees his duty as he see's it.  He's not for sale and he has stood up to both parties when he thought it was the right thing to do.  Though i sometimes disagree with him.

        I even thought for a while McCain was an honorable man, but he's cast aside any honor he might have had in favor of kissing the big wide ass of the Republican Party.  For that, I take back anything I've ever praised him for.  

        I seriously wonder if the guy is losing his mind.  He's starting to remind me of my Dad when he went into the beginning of dementia.  Hell, I'm scared of the guy.  When people start losing it, they always believe they're right and everyone else is against them.  But don't worry we'll have Sarah Palin to take over if McCain slips over the edge.  Scary world we live in, ain't it?

        •  Nick, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          carver

          Yes it is, and for the first time in my life I am truly afraid of the future. I guess as a spoiled American I have always felt that all would be well, after all we be #1. But McCain and Palin frightens me, and the more I research him and his real record, the more I fear.

          "I believe that imagination is stronger than knowledge, that dreams are more powerful than facts, That hope always triumphs over experience."

          by terra gazelle on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 01:21:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm with you (0+ / 0-)

            I love this county and like most of us, I'm spoiled even though money times are tough around Stump Manor.

            These two people we're facing are so scary. I keep expecting the American people to wake up.  We're good people for the most part--hard working folks who want their kids to do better than they did, but it scares me when our voters fall the same jerks and the same tactic election after election.  

            We can do better, but we don't, so I don't have confidence we will do better this time around. We're a good primary party, but come the real election we continue to blow the thing.  We win if all Democrats vote Democratic.  We win by a landslide. We win if the young people come out by a landslide.  Here's hoping the young people come out, but they too are better in primaries or that's the way it seems to me.  We know how to beat Democrats, I just hope we can apply the knowledge to a general election.

    •  You may be surprised (0+ / 0-)

      A lot of the military folks I know who were staunch McCain supporters 6 months ago.  Some of these people are really good friends; in order to maintain that friendship, we basically had to agree to disagree.

      But now, some at least have shifted to the Obama camp.  For a number, the deciding factor was Palin.  They just could not imagine her at the helm.  Furthermore, in their minds, she really brought out the hypocrisy of McCain's "Country First".

      You may be speaking for more folks than you know.

      How do I know what I think 'till I see what I write?

      by JRandomPoster on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 01:03:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Tip'd & Rec'd (5+ / 0-)

    "War is a Racket" - MajGen Smedley D. Butler, USMC

    by PvtJarHead on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 12:04:01 PM PDT

  •  And a good many of those vets are homeless. (8+ / 0-)

    They don't have the luxury of a megaphone spotlighting their service to this country or how they've been abandoned by the government.

    tipped and rec'd

    Sarah Palin, a Trojan Moose carrying four more years of disaster.

    by jazzence on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 12:05:32 PM PDT

  •  alot of my moderate friends (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueyedace2, Nick Stump

    are starting to re think voting obama....if he doesnt understand the stakes of the election, he's going to lose.
    Unless Obama gets a more feisty, the bleeding is going to continue

    go here communityorganizersforobama.com

    by desiunion on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 12:06:37 PM PDT

    •  You're right (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Man in the Middle

      Obama has missed opportunity after opportunity and we will lose this election if he does not change his game.  Like it or not, Hillary was the answer to the VP question.  She's have cut Palin's smart-ass remarks into little piece by now.  Don't get me wrong, I love Joe Biden, always have, but the Palin deal was a smart one and we've lost votes over it.  

      You really gotta think this stuff through when you decide you want to be the Prez.

      •  McCain chose Palin ONLY because Obama (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Nick Stump

        chose Biden.  McCain/Rove just want to divide the party.  McCain hates Hillary and had Obama chose Hillary, McCain/Rove would be trumpeting experience rather than change.

        Biden is fine and Obama is fighting back. We are up against Rove and his minions who know that if Obama wins, they are all going to end up on trial.

        •  I think you might be right (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          elliott

          It makes sense and though I hate to say so, it was a smart move.  I didn't think women would bite--that no woman would be dumb enough to fall for this trick, but some women were just that dumb.

          Some voters that feisty, big talking woman and even Joan Walsh on Salon called Palin a feminist.  It sort of makes me sick to think my wife, a real ceiling buster could be compared to Palin, but it's happening as we speak.

      •  Going to disagree with you on this (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        carver

        I don't think he has missed opportunities; I think that he took the opportunity to take the high road.  He has to prove he is of absolutely honorable character; though it makes some people uncomfortable to confront it directly, if he is anything less than that, it gives too many people with even unconscious racism a reason to vote for him.  Also, he has to prove that he is fundamentally different; no one who does not walk the walk is going to be able to sell the message of change.

        With this said, though Palin has been getting all the news cycles, if you look at what Obama has been saying recently, it is pretty darn hard hitting.

        I do not see the man as weak, and I think that he knows when and how to hit back.  And I've noticed that he has gotten better at condensing his complex thoughts into eloquent, short memorable phrases that still reflect his intellect.

        How do I know what I think 'till I see what I write?

        by JRandomPoster on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 01:09:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I hope you're right (0+ / 0-)

          He is getting better and losing the professor sound.  I want our president to be smarter than me and better educated.  He doesn't need to dumb anything down, but the most complex thought can always be explained in simple terms.

          As for missed opportunities, I hope you're right about that too, but right after the primary, I kept seeing here and other places online and in the media, Obama voters and campaign folks acting as if we had won the White House.  It was certainly squandered time, if not missed opportunity.  I also felt Hillary would have sealed the deal, making this a truly unbeatable ticket.  JFK hated Lyndon, but he made the smart choice and won the election.

          Obama is talking tough but how many other Democrats are doing the same thing?  We have to get the media to notice us and right now, Palin is dominating.  Plus, how effective is Obama's tough talk.  I think he has to keep it up, but I worry that as long as he's defending himself against what Palin has said, he still looks weak.  I don't think he is really weak, but appearances outweight everything.  I truely believe he can make a great presidnet, but we have to get him in the door before he'll change anything.

        •  A back bencher senator, who... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Nick Stump

          ...happens to be African American, organized a 50 state campaign, raised more money from more small donors than any candidate in history and beat the anointed candidate against all odds.  It sure looks like Obama doesn't know what he's doing.  Get a grip!
          Great diary, Nick, tipped & rec'ed

          Tolerance is giving to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself...... Robert Green Ingersoll -8.25 / -5.64

          by carver on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 02:14:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  He's certainly done a great job (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            carver

            ...though I'd never claim him to be a true backbencher.  He came into the Senate as a super-star if I remember correctly.  He had knocked that keynote speech of the park and eveyone, even me, a Hillary man, had been talking about him being president someday.  

            And don't get me wrong.  Just because I'm critical of some of the ways he's run his campaign doesn't mean I don't think highly of him.  Also, being one of the few African-american Senators is hardly a disadvantage in the Senate.  It's not like the Dixiecrats are gonna storm out any moment.

  •  You are so right, I'm sick of it too. Instead, (3+ / 0-)

    we should say "we honor John McCain's service no more or no less than any of the other thousands who served."  

    We Changed The Course! Now we must hold their feet to the fire.

    by hcc in VA on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 12:07:32 PM PDT

  •  Thank you (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Front Toward Enemy

    I am sick of him too.  Although it must have been awful, I'm sick of how he plays it.  My 2 marine sons and all the other troops are the heroes because they're out there trying to clean up Bush lies and not in a safe cage.  This may sound cruel, but I don't care.  God help us if Obama loses.

  •  This Vet Is Not Tired Of McCain's POW Story (9+ / 0-)

    This vet is tired of people using that story as a means toward an end, and this vet is very tired of John McCain doing it.

    This vet buried his father in a VA cemetery a year and a half ago. Before the time of his death this vet had heard only one story about his father's military service in WWII, 'his ship was blown out of the water and he spent thirty some days on a life raft', and this vet heard the story from his mother, not from his father.

    It was only after this vet's father was dead did this vet find out that his father was a hero, in the true 'pre 9/11' sense of the word.

    <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

    by superscalar on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 12:23:43 PM PDT

    •  Amen... (3+ / 0-)

      I couldn't believe McCain drug this story out again in his acceptance speech, right after Rudy had done the same thing. Talk about pandering to the crowd.  I was embarrassed for him.

      You never hear Jim Webb bragging about how he won the Navy Cross.  Hell, that story reads like a Rambo movie.  When a band played the Marine Corp song at one of his campaign stops, Webb made them stop, saying he would never stoop to using his service to get votes.

      Webb understands what true honor is and shows it in his manner an in his voting record.  That guy is Presidential material.  

  •  McCain has never been vetted (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nick Stump

    He won't allow any body to ask about his years in service,(crashing unknown number of planes)and that is what he is running on is his years in service.

    Palin is not vetted.

    HELP!!

  •  He did crash a lot of planes (0+ / 0-)

    I think it was three or four, not counting his shootdown.  He was a fighter jock and like I said, no offense to fighter pilots, but those I knew thought they were god's gift to the planet and they treated enlisted men like dogs.  Some gentlemen, indeed.

    •  A correction, if I may (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nick Stump

      and please correct me if I am wrong.  My understanding is that McCain flew an A-4 Skyhawk, which was used primarily as a light bomber and not as fighter planes, expect in a defensive role.  As such, McCain was a bomber pilot and not a fighter pilot.

      I was not even alive during the Vietnam War and so I invite anyone out there with any knowledge upon this to correct me if I'm wrong.  It's not a significant misstatement, but if correct, it's yet another misstatement from the McCain camp.

      Thanks for your service and thanks for your article.

      "Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm." James Madison, Federalist No. 10.

      by Mike McL on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 01:00:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're may right (0+ / 0-)

        Maybe he did fly an A-4.  It was a light bomber, but light being the key word. They could fly low level missions drop napalm, use machine and I think cannon fire. You see them making low level strafing runs in Iraq and we used them a lot at times when a ground unit was about to be overun. A very good ground support airplane.

        I think you can see A-4s in the movie, We Were Soldiers.  Great airplane though as I was an intelligence analyst, I know little about airplane and more about MIGs than what we flew. Damn few Air Force guys ever saw the inside of a plane.  

        The fighter planes we flew over Vietnam were mostly F-4's and they were the planes guys like Randy Cunningham flew.  Cunningham was our biggest ace and later ended up in prison for misconduct while being a congressman.  

        As for the A-4, it might be considered to be a fighter-bomber and should in no way be considered in the B-52 class.  But like I said, I'm not really an airplane guy.  I flew on a few, but I'm not qualified to say much about them.

      •  Your right ! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Nick Stump

        Only the cream of the crop, "top guns", flew the fighters - McSame flew the Skyhawk.

        Tolerance is giving to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself...... Robert Green Ingersoll -8.25 / -5.64

        by carver on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 02:26:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Forrestal (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nick Stump

      Nick,
      I had heard that when McCain was involved in the  fire on the USS Forrestal it was because of a "wet start". 132 men were killed yet he got away. I don't know.
      Mcacin is not who we need for this nation at this time. It will take someone special to lead us..and McCain is certainly not it.

      "I believe that imagination is stronger than knowledge, that dreams are more powerful than facts, That hope always triumphs over experience."

      by terra gazelle on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 01:15:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Forestal was not McCain's... (0+ / 0-)

        fault.  A missile on another plane cooked off and actually hit McCain's plane while he was inside the thing.  There's some great video of McCain jumping out and running though a wall of burning airplane fuel.  Also there was at least one man, an enlisted man who probably died keeping McCain and other fliers hosed down.  

        We almost sunk our own ship that day.  I can't remember how many died, but well over a hundred.  If nothing else, we can certainly see John McCain has a strong sense of self-preservation.  He has survived everthing.

        •  130 + died on the Forrestal. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Nick Stump

          My brother in law was on the ship at the time. McCain had no responsiblity for the explosion and fire and in fact was close to being in the death count.

          Tolerance is giving to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself...... Robert Green Ingersoll -8.25 / -5.64

          by carver on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 02:29:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Great diary (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nick Stump

    Needed to be said.

    Tipped & reccd.

  •  I'm glad someone with the... (0+ / 0-)

    ...chops to do so has put a light on the McSame mythos.  Great diary, well said - tipped & rec'ed

    Tolerance is giving to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself...... Robert Green Ingersoll -8.25 / -5.64

    by carver on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 02:34:25 PM PDT

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