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Okay, so part of the reason my head hurts is because I had a migraine yesterday, and I'm still in that "everything above my neck isn't working in synch" phase.  (I feel like a vampire:  stay away, bright light!)

But where my brain hurts regards the conversation I had with my nutty, Rush Limbaugh lovin', Fox News watchin', xenophobic Republican father last night.  Let's just say that he has drunk deeply of the Kool Aid.

I make it a policy (an oft-repeated one) to avoid discussing politics with my dad.  We have had a difficult relationship at times (he's not a perfect person, and among other things, he was pretty weaselly in his treatment of my mother when they divorced), and we don't need additional, unnecessary challenges.  And as I pointed out to him years ago, I am a very intelligent, self-sufficient, successful adult who is more than capable of making my own decisions.  Since the conversations don't tend to go two ways, perhaps he should do me the favor of shutting the fark up?  (Ahem.)  Besides, he gets the majority of his news from Fox News and Rush Limbaugh, while I get mine from a variety of sources, including NPR, the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, RSS feeds, and a variety of high quality magazines.  (Do you all remember the study from the Pew Research Center--an indepdent, neutral, and widely respected institution--a few years ago which showed that people for whom Fox News was their major source of information had the least factually accurate beliefs about what was going on in Iraq, whereas those for whom NPR was their source had the most factually accurate beliefs?  'Nough said.)

Anyway the good, the bad, and the ugly:

The good:  I managed to not discuss Sarah Palin with him.  Honestly, I don't want to hear from my dad about how Palin is a VPILF.  Yuck.

The bad:  Dad said that Obama had advisors with ties to Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac.  Um... Dad?  Rick Davis?  How confused are you?  How far up your ass is your head?  (I think Dad had his fingers in his ears and was singing "la la la la la" at this point.)  I spewed out Phil Gramm, and that shut him up.

The ugly:  Dad said that the financial meltdown is because of bank regulation, rather than deregulation.  Nice.  And what regulation was he referring to?  Those pesky rules forcing banks to loan to poor people, people of color, people on the wrong side of the tracks (I cleaned up his language for you).  In other words, the regulations against red-lining.  Never mind that the reality was that it wasn't necessarily banks behind these loans and that the loans were very often predatory in terms of their rates, their schedules, their fees, and the (too large) amounts that they loaned.  Never mind that people were often unethically not duly informed of what they were getting into.  Never mind that a lot of people made a lot of money basically scalping these people and packaging and selling bales of this crap.  As always, I like to point out to Dad that the reason we get rules in the first place is generally because someone was unable to rely on their own (lacking) sense of ethics to do the right thing.  And deregulation was a disaster.

I want to rip my hair out (or wash my ears out) after listening to him.  I do my best to counter him, and then I change the subject.  Ironically, though, we agree on a few things:  the people "running" these companies are being paid absurd amounts of money for doing nothing to improve their companies.  Basically, they come in for a few years, strip out value for themselves, and then poof goes the golden parachute.  My father brought up the fact that CEOs make an insane multiple of the folks on the lowest rungs of the companies (who, ironically, tend to have much greater loyalty to the company).  When a capitalist of my father's ilk points that out, wow.  We also agree that the people running these companies are not doing anything for their companies (or our country):  what do they make?  what valuable service do they provide?  what are they adding to the economy?  Nothing.

Thanks for the opportunity to vent.  When I feel better, I'll get back out canvassing.  In the mean time, I think this may provide some inspiration for some LTEs (written in a dark room).

Originally posted to kkmama on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 09:34 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  give my father your best financial tip (15+ / 0-)

    Really:  I'd love to hear it. :>)

    A female candidate is no substitute for a candidate who cares about women.

    by kkmama on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 09:35:24 AM PDT

  •  Don't Bother (4+ / 0-)

    Things are looking really good right now, Obama doens't need your father's support! I wouldn't even bring it up.

  •  The weekend after Labor Day (5+ / 0-)

    I was a captive audience at a small gathering featuring an outspoken Yellow Dog Republican - socially moderate, college educated senior female, who just would not let up on Barack-bashing. I feel your pain.

  •  God I related to you regarding the migraines. (4+ / 0-)

    Man'o man that day after sucks, don't it?  Oh, good diary by the way.

    •  Thanks. I feel totally incoherent. (4+ / 0-)

      I have vertigo too, and the two seem to be connected.  This morning, I finally gave in and took some valium for the vertigo (yes, that's what I've been prescribed!  scary, but it works--just squashes everything down :>\  ).  I feel pretty incoherent but still pissed. ;>)

      A female candidate is no substitute for a candidate who cares about women.

      by kkmama on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 09:41:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I can definitely sympathize. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Colorado is the Shiznit

        As an epileptic who has been having very bad dizzy spells over the last few days and not knowing whether it is related to the seizure meds or the Tylenol PM for the insomnia and arthritis pain, I know what you mean about people who just want to push your buttons when you are already in pain or dizzy.

        My mother, before she passed last year, became a ditto head for no known reason and conversations with her were disgusting. I could never discuss anything that was of real importance. Even today, a former co-worker of mine sent me an email trying to prove the Obama is the Anti-Christ...sheesh! Needless to say, I just deleted it!

        Economic: -6.88 Social: -3.74
        "Do or do not, there is no try." - Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back

        by triciawyse on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 10:26:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Me too on migraines and vertigo (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        triciawyse

        The total vertigo loss-of-any-balance-crawling-only episodes have have been very rare and not for decades thank goodness. Equilibrium is really a sixth sense. And only if it is totally gone do you realize the truth of that.

        I've had really bad migraines, at least a couple a month, for most of my life - but unpredictable and sometime absent for a while... But ALWAYS coming back. I adjusted, avoided certain things, tried vitamins etc. but only succeeded in maybe making them less often and not as severe... or it seemed that way. And no help from the medical profession at all though I did ask over and over.

        And years later, after years of different jerk doctors not giving a shit, it all changed. I finally hit my 50's and got mild hypertension. I got given moderate prescription for a beta blocker and like a magic wand... no more migraines... I ask my most recent doctor hey is there some sort of link?  Oh yeah BBs are often prescribed for migraines...

        YEAH???!!!! thanks a whole bunch (damn medical profession) for letting me suffer for most of my life and flipping me off when I needed help. Since the big change (8 years now) I have found lots of stuff on the internet on plenty of other medical issues no one bothered to answer over the years. They did not give a name or explain things that were real and not my imagination things I experienced or had, suffered with or from. If they did not want to admit that medical science could really explain them properly yet fine... but labeling people as  hypochondriacs is just a weasel way out of admitting that doctors don't know everything and that a lot of patients are not always head cases making stuff up.

        In the early 70's, when I was in college, I had a job pushing carts of medical books and magazines around in the basement of the National Library of Medicine and while pulling and reshelving them I did a lot of reading (way too much actually) and the biggest thing I learned was that despite the huge amount of progress they were making (and have made since) what they don't know dwarfs what they know and the conservative nature of the profession, i.e. first do no harm means that change comes slowly and stupid misconceptions and just plain wrong stuff persists far too long. It is just the nature of biology... very complex and a long ways to go still so I am not totally down on Western medicine and doctors but I do know that beside the bedside manner and the comforting facade that implies that they know it all... they are just winging it a lot of the time.

        I'm still pissed off that all too often, even when they DO know something, they still F**k up way too much. And especially when it's me that has to live with the consequences and knowing that, wondering how many others are needlessly suffering and living  more difficult lives as a result.

        Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie

        by IreGyre on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 10:46:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'm sorry. It's really painful. (4+ / 0-)

    Just remind him that Obama is going to be a great president for all of us, even dittoheads, and that you won't even expect him to apologize down the road.  You will know in your heart his regret over his past foolishness, but will never hold it against him.

    :)

  •  my dad (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    triciawyse, Allogenes, imported beer

    passed away before he could vote in this election
    I had the same problems, and was told
    "you can not discuss YOUR politics in MY HOUSE"

    Hope he had a lot invested in WAMU, Lehman, and
    AIG

    Bush/Cheney04 Because it takes 8 years to Destroy the Country Download GeckosAgainstBS song

    by demnomore on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 09:40:02 AM PDT

    •  Actually, ironically.... (3+ / 0-)

      And I've been thinking about whether or not to blog about this....  my father's family was in banking for years.  There was a small family bank which my uncle and grandfather started and ran for many years (and my father was on the board and on the loan committee) which eventually was sold to Wells Fargo a few years ago (because there was a realization that my ne'er do well cousins had no interest or talent in pursuing the family business... and me?  I'm the black sheep of the family, went in a completely different direction).  Anyway, everyone was paid in Wells Fargo stock.  I had a relatively small amount, and I've been slowly divesting myself of it, because it seemed risky compared to the diversification one can get in an index stock fund at a good company like Vanguard.  Anyway, even though Wells has done fine through this mess, my dad is pretty freaked out, and aha, he sees the wisdom of my ways.  He's tempted to just bail out, capital gains taxes or no.

      A female candidate is no substitute for a candidate who cares about women.

      by kkmama on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 09:45:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I've been there, and tearing out my hair (5+ / 0-)

    is one of the less violent things I feel like doing.  As I posted a few days ago, the Bush election(s) practically tore me away from my family after spending months trying to get them to see things my way.  I never thought in a million, trillion years I'd ever have to say another word about the dangers of electing a Republican like McCain, but, well...you know the story.  Now it's easier to understand why families were torn apart during the revolutionary, civil, Vietnam, etc. wars.  The issues today, and where we stand, define our character.  It's disappointing to get a graphic reveal of family members who show a lack of it.  Good luck, and stay sane.

    The Paulson Proposal: Dear Congress, Give me $700 billion dollars. Love, Hank

    by livjack on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 09:41:55 AM PDT

  •  I received an email from my ditto head (7+ / 0-)

    cousin that compared Palin's resume to Obama's side by side.  I told my cousin I was "nonplussed" by it.
    Then I just sent her Cafferty's rant on  Palin and I have not heard back.

    I miss my arguments with my Ditto Dad.  He's gone now.

    You can't be the land of the free, if you aren't the home of the brave - The Wonder Moron

    by dogheaven on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 09:42:23 AM PDT

    •  With you on that last part . . . (4+ / 0-)

      My father passed away in July.  He was just shy of his 86th birthday and his and my mom's 60th wedding anniversary.  I miss him so.

      He and I didn't see eye-to-eye on all things political.  We had a couple of terrible arguments during the Reagan years.  But I grew to respect that I developed my passion for egalitarianism due to him.  He was not an elitist and was quite disdainful the wealthy and full-of-themself people.  And, in the past few years, he grew weary of all things Right-of-Center, too.  And in his day-to-day ways and manner there was never a more humble and kind-hearted human that ever lived.  So I thank him, always.

      bg
      _____

      "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

      by BenGoshi on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 10:07:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm sorry... (4+ / 0-)

    that you go through this as I know it can be so frustrating.  I've realized that there are just some of my family members that I'm not going to reach because they are at minimum terribly ill-informed and are unwilling to educate themselves any deeper than Rush Limbaugh or in some cases racists so nothing I can say will change their minds. Thankfully I have been successful with many of them and continue on.  
    Happy canvassing!

    "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." -- Winston Churchill

    by skertso on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 09:43:09 AM PDT

  •  I hear you but here is some advice (7+ / 0-)

    I once read this fabulous diary on DK about this guy who would make donations to the Obama camp in his dad's name each time his father brought up a "ditto head" argument.

    His dad would get an email thanking him for his generous contribution to the OBAMA campaign, plus an email from his son about why that argument was wrong.

    In my life, there are many dittoheads. I like some of them, but have realized that when it comes to politics, there can be no real exchange of thoughts with these people. So I concentrate on those I can talk to and NEVER discuss politics with those with whom I can't.

  •  I actually think (6+ / 0-)

    it's a good, positive thing that people are talking to their parents about politics, a stance that many of my generation (including myself) have avoided up until this point.  I look at it this way.  People all over the country are doing this.  It may not succeed with your father (or mine) but people are getting through instead of just saying nothing and seeing GWB for two terms.  

    It's a great thing.  I had a 2 hour conversation with my dad during the primary about my open endorsement of Obama.  He was scandalized by the yard sign, scandalized by my aggressiveness in defending him, accused me of being influenced by the conversations at the local coffee shop.  

    I wrote him an email the other day and told him that I was sorry he was upset by my views and the fact that I was ACTIVELY working to get Obama elected, but that if smart people like me stay silent, we get the same result we've had the last two elections.

    Thank you for speaking to your dad.  You may not have been able to get through, but others are and that's going to make a huge difference!

  •  Looks like I'm not the only one... (4+ / 0-)

    with nutty right wing relatives!  The thing is, I've never been rude about his views, his candidates, etc., while he can be a total jerk about spewing his views on me.  Part of the reason I don't like to talk about it is that I just don't like seeing the jerky side of my dad.

    A female candidate is no substitute for a candidate who cares about women.

    by kkmama on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 09:46:57 AM PDT

    •  Yep... (2+ / 0-)

      I've had several truly ugly arguments with my Dad. I just got back from a week with him and did you know that George Soros is trying to stop my Dad from going to his church? It gets freaky. But the worst part is that he gets so ugly and angry and it takes me back to weirder and weirder times, emotionally.

      He's not well and I don't think I'm going to change his views, so I really try not to have these conversations at all anymore.

  •  My Sympathies (3+ / 0-)

    I have two brothers and a father who are the same.  I'm working hard on my nieces and nephews with some success.

    This line of "thought" is clearly a GOP talking point.  I diaried when this first began on September 15 here.

  •  Herbert Hoover got 40% in 1932 (7+ / 0-)

    You'll never convince everyone.  

  •  I was talking to an "undecided" last night (4+ / 0-)

    Who claimed that Obama thought there were 57 states (she really believed it), thought he had no experience, and "wasn't sure who she was going to vote for", as long as it wasn't Bush - she thought he was horrible.

    We talked for a bit, and I highlighted some of Obama's record, including his time as President of Harvard Law Review.  When she talked about his "57" gaffe again, I told her about some of McCain's... and mentioned his record on women's rights, and veteran's rights.  I told her how McCain had voted with Bush over 90% of the time, and that he had campaigned for him.  Mentioned Phil Gramm and the deregulation issue that brought us where we are today.

    After talking to her for a while, and gently explaining  the substantive differences between the two candidates, I came to a realization.

    She knew who she was voting for. And it wasn't going to be Obama.  I don't know why, but she was quite obviously silent on McCain, but vocal about the issues she had with Obama.

    I didn't want to lose a potential voter, though... so after discussing with her for a bit, I told her it was her choice to make, and that I just hoped she would vote either way.

    She said she always votes, and reiterated that she hadn't decided yet.  I think she has, and I doubt that anything I said changed her mind.

    But at least I gave it my best shot - and who knows... maybe something I said took root.

    It's always worth a try, right?  Even if you feel like you're beating your head against a brick wall.

    "January 20th will... be celebrated as a day of soul-wrenching, heartfelt Thanksgiving..." Keith Olbermann

    by Diogenes2008 on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 09:51:45 AM PDT

  •  The funny thing (2+ / 0-)

    about my dad is that his parent's are dyed in the wool democrats.  They thought that Clinton's affair was a right-wing conspiracy, for God's sake!  So during our conversation he basically accused me of betraying him with my beliefs!  I was like " now you know how your parent's probably felt when you voted for Bush!"

  •  Hey, that's my dad you're talking about. (3+ / 0-)

    There is no issue that I can win on with him, he is all McCain.  It's my  own screaming that makes my head hurt (not at my dad, no point).  

    Funny story:  There were a couple of power outages at my dad's and his printer started printing everything with a blue tint.  We talked about the problem and I told him that my TV sometimes had a color problem after a power surge and that unpluging and repluging it in worked for me.  He unpluged and repluged his printer, rebooted his computer and adjusted the printer settings and it still had a blue tint, he has decided a new printer is necessary.  

    After spending about 3 hours on and off working on the darn printer he goes to relax in front of the TV with Faux news and finds the remote doesn't work.  He shuts off the TV, gets behind the thing and unplugs and replugs the thing. When he turns it back on the remote works but the TV has a blue tint!  He can't believe it after all the printer problems.  He quickly discovered that he had dislodged a wire while working behind the TV, problem fixed.  

    When he shared this last tidbit with me, I suggested that maybe his printer, his TV and his daughter (me)were all telling him he ought to vote BLUE!  

  •  Thank G-d my parents have/had brains (2+ / 0-)

    My father passed away five years ago, my mother at age 72 still works/runs around all over the place.  (By the way, she thinks that McCain is too old to be President.)

    About the only way my mother would vote Republican is if a loaded gun was put to her head.  The same for my late Dad.

    When my mother hears something she questions...she calls me to ask what the truth is.  

    She works with someone who is a true low info ditto head.  I think she wants to hit him over the head with a T-Square (it's engineering survey firm).  This guy put Rush on the radio... she goes over and pulls the plug telling him that he if wants to listen to that crap he needs to get headphones.

    I'm so happy I was always able to talk politics with my parents...and not walk away with a headache.

    John McCain: A Myth, Not a Maverick

    by oxfdblue on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 09:55:44 AM PDT

  •  The Community Reinvestment Act of the 1970s (5+ / 0-)

    is the excuse people like your dad are being fed by Limbaugh, FOX and other rightwingers. I hear it all the time. It is poor people and illegal immigrants that are responsible for the problems in our economy. But I shut this argument down by merely sending them pictures and listing of foreclosed homes. Because if you look at the lsitings and see the pictures you will find a real preponderance of McMansions and homes $300,000 and up. These are not homes the poor were sold. Friends of mine who were bank loan officers will tell you that CRA clients always had to adhere to strict lending restrictions. They could not buy a home with a morgage with payments that exceeded their aability to pay. And the banks were instructed to confirm pay with employers.

    What has been the real problem are the speculators and people who went went to mortgage lenders (not regulated banks) and got creative loans based on money they hoped to make in the future. That is gambling.

    The restrictions and regulations Fannie and Freddie operated under originally were strict. However, when they became semi private, they also lobbied to get regulations and caps lifted that allowed them to be more "creative" and to lend far more than was their original mission.

    But, seriously, just show Dad the pics of the million dollar homes that are under foreclosure and ask him if he believes for a moment Javier the Gardener lived there.

    That's not a Maverick. That's a sidekick!

    by DWKING on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 09:57:47 AM PDT

  •  Thanks . . . for a *real* diary. Rec'd. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    triciawyse

    And, here's mine, along a sort of similar vein, from a little over 3 years ago.  Read it.  Really.  You'll know you're not alone!

    bg
    _________

    "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

    by BenGoshi on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 10:02:20 AM PDT

  •  Teach Your Children (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    triciawyse, jilikins, kkmama

    Teach Your Children
    by Graham Nash

    You, who are on the road
    Must have a code
    That you can live by.
    And so, become yourself
    Because the past
    Is just a goodbye.

    Teach your children well
    Their father's hell
    Did slowly go by
    And feed them on your dreams
    The one they picks
    The one you'll know by.
    Don't you ever ask them why
    If they told you, you would die
    So just look at them and sigh
    And know they love you.

    And you (Can you hear and)
    Of tender years (Do you care and)
    Can't know the fears (Can you see we)
    That your elders grew by (Must be free to)
    And so please help (Teach your children)
    Them with your youth (You believe and)
    They seek the truth (Make a world that)
    Before they can die (We can live in)

    Teach your parents well
    Their children’s hell
    Will slowly go by
    And feed them on your dreams
    The one they picks
    The one you’ll know by.

    Don’t you ever ask them why
    If they told you, you would cry
    So just look at them and sigh
    And know they love you.

    Four out five sock puppets agree

    by se portland on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 10:02:31 AM PDT

  •  i just heard on Wash Journal this AM (3+ / 0-)

    a few dittoheads calling in saying it was the illegal immigrants that caused the financial crisis.  

    i googled it -- sure enough, it was Malkin and Glenn Beck who spewed this

    http://www.zillow.com/...

    http://promigrant.org/...

    i made sure my hubby heard about it before he left to play golf with his special dittohead friends.  he likes to "discuss" politics with them when they bring up issues.  

    it is good to know for me, too, since i am the only "pinko-commie-liberal" in my family.  

    Boot out Bushbot Barrett, donate to Jane Dyer SC-03 (vet & union member)

    by sc kitty on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 10:09:05 AM PDT

  •  My father-in-law is a life-long Republican (4+ / 0-)

    He was a working man before he retired - a linotype operator for a now defunct big city paper.  The last discussion we had, I simply asked him to tell me one thing the Republicans have done for working people.  He couldn't name one.  It would depend whether your father is/was a working man or, if not, sympathetic to their situation, but that question may bring things home for him in a way that will be hard for him to discount.

    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell

    by accumbens on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 10:09:31 AM PDT

  •  Had my own run-in with a ... (3+ / 0-)

    Kool-aid drinking neighbor.  The woman, college educated and 50ish, said the following:  Obama is a Muslim, all his money comes from Arabs, Iraq was fine until the Shah fell (I kid you not!), we are in Iraq because the UN made us go, we are the biggest force in Iraq because we are the biggest country in the UN, people in the South will never vote for a colored man, your taxes will go thru the roof if Obama gets in, etc.  

    The entire experience was pretty horrifying and cringe-worthy.  I had to make some corrections, but it was awkward  - as we were attending a dinner party hosted by someone else.  I didn't want to turn our host's party into a verbal brawl.  The ignorance factor in this country is very scary to me.  This woman will be voting for sure and will spout this crap everywhere she goes.  I finally had to excuse myself to the kitchen for a stiff drink. Sigh.

    "Loving deeply gives you courage." Peter Jennings

    by Needa Bigger Pretzel on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 10:11:31 AM PDT

    •  I understand that! My one neighbor (3+ / 0-)

      actually swears that if Obama does get elected he will be assassinated before he gets to take office.

      He got pissed when I said to him (very sarcastically) "Well, then, aren't we thankful that he picked a decent VP candidate?"

      Economic: -6.88 Social: -3.74
      "Do or do not, there is no try." - Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back

      by triciawyse on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 10:34:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've heard the same assassination theme (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        triciawyse

        from quite a few people (I'm in PA), as if they are afraid to vote for someone only to have him killed--or is it an excuse for their own racism? Most of these people are not openly racist, and I would like to think they only need to be assured that the more who vote for our guy, the less danger he will face, but I can't be sure. I only know we can't let fear drive our decisions, and I try to relay that.

        •  May I ask what part of PA??? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          marina

          I'm from the Delaware Valley & miss being home. I am now in the Triangle in NC...

          I do think that the area of PA will have something to do with racism levels in these people. Believe me, I remember the MOVE incident in Philly(the second one)...

          Economic: -6.88 Social: -3.74
          "Do or do not, there is no try." - Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back

          by triciawyse on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 02:00:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think and hope voters will surprise us (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            triciawyse

            I'm up along the northern tier in Central-Eastern PA, where there is still a lot of farming and people have been struggling for years, from when the factories shut down in the fifties.

            Then began the tax breaks to new industries that would move in, then move jobs South or overseas, again and again, and the local economies would take the hit, repeatedly.

            There's a lot of provincialism that stifles real progress. But people have been realizing that things can and must change, and so I'm hopeful.

  •  It's a wingnut theme to blame (3+ / 0-)

    the poor and minorities and especially the undocumneted who purchased homes through the Community Reinvestment Act signed under Clinton, requiring lenders to commit a percentage of their work to those groups.

    Digby has more on this meme (Michelle Malkin) of blaming undocumented people and Democrats for the financial disaster.

  •  Yeah, I've got one too... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marina, triciawyse

    My 86 year old father is a Goldwater Republican who thinks Palin is the best and most qualified of the four nominees because of her "executive experience." I've learned to simply not talk politics with him. The best I have been able to do the last 40 years is cancel his vote every election with mine.

    Is that a real poncho, or is that a Sears' poncho? - Frank Zappa

    by JoesGarage on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 10:14:02 AM PDT

  •  My dad is (3+ / 0-)

    no fan of McCain, but has repeatedly told me that "there is no one for him in this election".  Last time he wrote that I said "that may be true.  But there IS someone for your kids and your grandkids."

  •  Reminds me of my own dear departed dad... (2+ / 0-)

    an otherwise very intelligent, observant, caring, etc, person, who was a very loyal Republican from as far back as I can remember. From Scranton, PA, a college grad, and a functioning alcoholic for decades, who in fact died of liver failure 3 years ago this month... I would get into arguments with him occasionally, but our differences were so fundamental that we both knew that it was not constructive... and the funny thing is that we really agreed on the fact that government is inherently dysfunctional, politicians pander, and the media is biased. I have always had the belief that a certain amount of gridlock is good, and that one party should act as a check on the other. But I think he always blamed the Democrats (especially after the Kennedys became important figures in the party), for ruining America, while the Republicans, (hewing to the mythology we are all familiar with) have been held back, prevented by the sneaky, snake-like Democrats from doing what needs to be done, whatever that is, it somehow was never explained coherently, other than the same old saws about cutting spending and cutting taxes and letting the market take care of itself...

    I think the Nixon impeachment pushed dad over the edge into dittohead territory, though, as I'm sure it did to a lot of Republicans. There has been a mentality that there would be a payback for that, and strangely enough, apparently, the Clinton episode didn't do it for them... I guess because he survived it, politically... I think that really made a lot of these people like my dad feel that the world was upside down, and they just immersed themselves in the pathos of Limbaugh's (and others) self-indulgent feel-good pity party.

    Tell your dad that you love him, but that you are comfortable with your politics, and that he needs to think for himself, like he taught you to do. That way, you can appeal to his sense of pride. After all, as you said, you are at least self-sufficient. That must reflect on his parenting skills somehow.

  •  Sorry to hear that, dude (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    triciawyse, kkmama

    I'm sorry both for your migraine and for your father's Republican beliefs. Neither of them belong in this world anymore.

    I totally know how you feel with the migraine, though - I was going to canvass today and, yesterday, I ran right into the coffee table and broke my toe. It is now humongous, black and blue, and I can barely walk. So much for canvassing.

    I hate it when God intervenes in my plans. Doesn't he know that I have shit to do? Sheesh.

  •  Your dad and Michele Bachmann: 2 peas in a pod (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marina, kkmama

    So the whole thing is the fault of the government forcing banks to loan to unworthy people? That's an all-to-convenient theory we need to target hard.

    Up here in Minnesota, our local wingnut embarrassment in Congress, Michele Bachmann (MN-06), tried the same argument in a Minneapolis Star Tribune op-ed a couple days ago:

    The recklessness of government is a primary culprit here. For years, Congress has been pushing banks to make risky, subprime loans. Using the authority of the Community Reinvestment Act, the big push for subprime mortgages began in earnest during the Clinton years. Banks that didn't play ball were subject to serious fines and lawsuits, and regulatory obstacles were placed in their way. While expanding access to the American Dream is a worthy goal, by blindly pursuing that goal and allowing the end to justify any means, we put millions of Americans at financial risk.

    One of the reader comments this drew was pretty interesting, from someone who ought to know:

    Michele Bachmann's opinion piece demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of banking and the reason our financial system is in crisis. I was a banker for 15 years and I managed the investment portfolio for a community bank with more than 30 branches from Houston, Texas to Corpus Christi, Texas. The Community Reinvestment Act has never encouraged banks to make unsafe and unsound loans or investments. The fact of the matter is that the Community Reinvestment Act has assisted many small minority-owned businesses and educated many people that were ignorant on very basic financial matters. Fannie Mae was created under the administration of Franklin D. Roosevelt and successfully promoted home ownership. Freddie Mac was created later and successfully increased the number of people able to purchase a home. Home ownership helps to break the cycle of poverty, stabilize and grow the middle classe, and is good public policy. Unfortunately, a lack of regulation encouraged mortgage originators to commit fraud on a gigantic scale. These are the real culprits and these are the people that must be tracked down and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

    Think about it. American capitalists are extremely adept at getting their message out. Moreover, for the first six years of the Bush Administration, they had unrestricted access to the levers of power. If they really felt that the Community Reinvestment Act had done so much damage and might endanger the economy, don't you think we would have heard from them? Don't you think the Republican-controlled Congress would have done something about it?

    Funny how that theory is advanced by them only now.

    ____

    Important Safety Information: Until you know how AMBIEN CR™ will affect you, you shouldn't drive or operate the machinery of government.

    by Sharpner on Sun Sep 28, 2008 at 11:18:09 AM PDT

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