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There hasn't been much time for coffee musings what with the tracking poll (and the ex-pats waiting for the results over lunch) and all the other election news to post, but let me squeeze in a short observation or two.

We know that VP debates don't really change many minds. If Bentsen-Quayle didn't do it, last night won't do it either. But what's striking this morning are the following:

  • Joe Biden is the story for me, not Sarah Palin. I was delighted but not surprised with his remarkably strong and empathetic performance. Joe is a strong Democrat, and a proud family man. He's smart, he's experienced, and he can < gasp > be disciplined. If there's a candidate who exceeded realistic expectations, it was Biden who knocked it out of the park and exposed Palin for the attractive, but callow, candidate she really is. His discussion of his injured family was the deal-maker for the audience, a moment Palin handled awkwardly afterwards in her response.

  • Sarah Palin's expectations were ridiculously low, set by the punditocracy that, as Jon Stewart might say, is hurting this country. Get a grip, folks. No one cares whether Andrea Mitchell thinks Palin reached her (Mitchell's) expectations. They want to know whether Sarah Palin can help the family pay the mortgage and pay the college tuition bill.
  • Sarah Palin is not ready to be President. She is a heartbeat away from a 72 year-old with health issues.

  • McCain is losing the election this week. A good part of the reason is that Steve Schmidt is an idiot. He's run a tactical news cycle campaign and not a strategic campaign. He's made the wrong play at the wrong time and deserves much of the blame. When has he ever given us a reason to vote for John McCain?

  • Two completely separate conversations go on about Sarah Palin. She's lost thoughtful conservatives and independents, and Democrats were never her audience. Social conservatives and wingers like Pat Buchanan may love her, but who cares? Buchanan, I will remind the media, was a fringe candidate who did very poorly when he ran. Palin's audience may love her but they are a small portion of the electorate and they do not count any more. This is not a base election. It will take a loss for the media to get it.

  • The rest of the electorate, the big group, may like Sarah Palin, but from the moment we were following polling on her, we pointed out you can like her without voting for her. Last night's insta-polls agree.

Put on some coffee and join me. What do you think the media is missing (besides McCain pulling out of Michigan)?

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:37 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Joe was amazing (28+ / 0-)

    He was smart, but not wonky, and human where Palin was robotic.

    "Get out of my secret Christmas place Sarah Palin!" --- Joe Biden (no, not really)

    by Shelbyville Manhattan on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:38:55 AM PDT

    •  act by Monday - many states (5+ / 0-)


      to check you are properly registered to vote.

      Don't be DQ'd.

      And please recommend.

      •  The bar was so low that she felt she just (8+ / 0-)

        got elected president. I am rather mad at the moderator, Gwen. She was horrible. A 5th grader could have sat there and read those questions. I mean come on. Just because crapy tabloid Drudge scared her and she sat there like a duck reading shitty questions? Not one follow up?

        "allow nothing to be in your life that you cannot walk out of in 30 seconds if you spot the heat around the corner". - movie HEAT

        by HEAT on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:46:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I saw some followup (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kaity, dkosdan, spookthesunset

          and some back-and-forth.  She was inconspicuous, you almost forgot she was there, but that's ok -- the moderator SHOULDN'T intrude a lot of their own personality.  She didn't openly favor one candidate or the other, she appeared professional, even-handed, and objective.  I'd think that would be enough, compared to what we usually get.

          "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

          by lgmcp on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:56:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  don't you think she was a little removed (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DemCurious, ProgMa57, buffalogal55

            in a way. I mean when we start to be so cautious about asking the damn important questions to people who end up being in the WH affecting our lives, I think I want a little more engagement. I want a little more scrutiny. I want to hold theit feet on fire. especially this winking rat. She can't get away with this type of 3rd class folksy annoying display.

            "allow nothing to be in your life that you cannot walk out of in 30 seconds if you spot the heat around the corner". - movie HEAT

            by HEAT on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:00:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, I think "removed" is a fair description (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              HEAT, buffalogal55

              and perhaps that is overly cautious.  Sure, we'd love an aggressive, hard-hitting interviewer who would press candidates on claims known to be tenuous or mendacious ... but that's not the traditional role of a debate moderator.  "Winking rat" is good.  

              "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

              by lgmcp on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:02:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think in the long run it might work for Obama (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lgmcp, Kaity

                and it may well be a good tactical more to agree to this kind of format. I give you that it probably was difficult for gwen to go more than one followup. One thing I noticed last night that made me believe that team O might have purposely doing this is the fact that Joe didn't even bother to take the bait when she was trying him on that white flag crap. He steered away from it as if nothing happend and went straight to McFreak. I thought that was good although I was mad when she said that. I was almost going into the TeeVee...many times actually...

                "allow nothing to be in your life that you cannot walk out of in 30 seconds if you spot the heat around the corner". - movie HEAT

                by HEAT on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:10:12 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  by the way the CNN undecided graph (4+ / 0-)

                  took a breathtaking nosedive when she made the "white flag of surrender" remark.  Evidently the number of people being "whipped up" by that remark are all in the base and becoming more marginalized.

                  •  Yep, i think Biden's strategy (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ProgMa57

                    was good. He didn't have to attack her for her saying maverick or any of the other verbal tics. The undecideds showed they were paying attention and didn't like when she did those things.

                    The Obama team must have some people on top of that.

                    The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. - Harlan Ellison

                    by eco d on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 08:22:04 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  But she won't blink. . . (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              El Ochito, vintage dem

              instead she will wink when the enemies of America "rear their heads". . ..

          •  Then why have a "moderator" at all? (5+ / 0-)
            Just give each candidate 90 seconds in turn to talk about whatever they like.  That's pretty much what Palin did.

            --
            But seriously, CNP, when McSame keels over during his inauguration, who are you really going to let run out his term?

            by DemCurious on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:04:04 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  She even said that she wouldn't follow... (8+ / 0-)

              It was a perfect, albeit accidental, summation of the McCain/Palin ticket - we'll do whatever we think we need to do to get votes, rules be damned.

              Come to think of it, maybe that's just the modern GOP mantra.  Rules, like the Constitution and the Geneva Conventions, are just "quaint" things that other people should obey.

              Or, viewed another way, she was just using Cheney as an example of how to behave. She even tried to use the old Reagan line "there you go again" with Biden, but she doesn't have the timing to use it properly.

              •  She might make Cheney look like an accomplished (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                drmah, dkosdan, ProgMa57

                diplomat and I am saying this with deep deep regret. I mean come on. This is unreal.

                "allow nothing to be in your life that you cannot walk out of in 30 seconds if you spot the heat around the corner". - movie HEAT

                by HEAT on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:15:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  voteforchange.com - also for absentee info n/t (0+ / 0-)
    •  He was authentic. Obvious contrast to (13+ / 0-)

      Palins forced folksy-ness.

      I thought Biden appeared exhausted at the beginning and that he had been told to go easy on her. Once Palin attacked him, he treated her like a peer and that moment turned the tables.

      I also think his emotional breakdown was moving not because he broke down, but because he stood for fathers who are often ignored in these "family values" discussions. He demonstrated that it is possible to be serious about the issues, to know what's going on AND to be a good, decent father with a loving family.

      He was awesome.

      •  Forced? Really? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Naithom, galaxy33, WineRev

        I found it grating, dere, y'know, ya ah did mmm hmmmm but forced dere, ya I doan know 'bout dat much.

        It does tend to sound forced folksy because she sounds a bit like Frances McDormand in Fargo, but I think that is her in her 'tis is me in my most informal voice,' which seems to be how she conducts herself most of the time.

        Worked as a commercial fisherman up dere in AK for a few years. Had some acquaintances who would bust into a different sort of speaking cadence to emulate Aleut speech for laughs at the bar now and den. It was aping plain and simple but it was to some degree accurately depicting speech patterns. I found myself hearing the same sort of speaking cadence in Palin, dere. Is that forced?

        Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment. --Solomon Short

        by potty p on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:54:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  In 1 of the 1000s of comments (4+ / 0-)

          speeding by last night on the live blogs (tips to whoever made it; I didn't catch the signature. I just woke up laughing with it this morning:)

          "Sarah Palin: I liked her better in 'Fargo'."

          Shalom

          "God has given wine to gladden the hearts of people." Psalm 104:15

          by WineRev on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 07:21:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Like I believe she's a folksy middle class mom... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lawman, galaxy33, ProgMa57

            She may sound like something out of the backwoods (do people in Alaska really have that accent?!), but, in truth her husband makes over 100K a year, as does the governor.  The people of Alaska have paid for her cars, and numerous other perks.  

            Regular folk don't live like that.

            We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - Albert Einstein

            by FearlessAreFree on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 09:01:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  fake accent (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              galaxy33, FearlessAreFree

              She revs that fake "Fargo" accent up everytime she wants to sound folksy, which is polotico for "Talk stupid to appeal to stupid people.".  Completely fake.  Anyone else notice the "Bush podium lean" maneuver everytime she did that fake accent?  One of my friends says she looks like she is leaning on the bar.  I was apalled at the skin tight, wetsuit she wore and the hooker stillettos.  I thought those things went out with headbands and leg warmers.  Does she think we will take her more seriously if she looks like she is about to shimmy down a pole at any moment?  Does she own one tailored suit with trousers?  I am so tired of women using sex appeal to get power.  How about using their brains? Oh yes.  That wont work with this person.

          •  I read on another blog..... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ProgMa57

            "I kept waiting to hear, Jane you ignorant....."  Seriousely, Joe Biden was a master last night, because he was real.  This is a guy who respects and loves the women around him.  The story he told about advice from Mike Mansfield about not demonizing your opponents was apparently a lesson well learned.  McCain's mistake has been hiring Schmidt and Rove who are playing a game Americans are on to and sick to death of.

        •  Sounds More Upper Midwest (0+ / 0-)

          To me it sounds more Upper Midwest.  Is that where her folks were from originally?

          •  FWIW, NPR had a linguist on yesterday PM (0+ / 0-)
            on ATC.  A professor from PA, I think.  He said that her "O"s and a couple of other accent characteristics are typical of our Northwest.  I have a sister-in-law and her husband in Great Falls, and he (they) have a bit of this toned-down Upper Midwest sound, which gradually dissipates the further west you go.  I thought she was originally from Idaho, so it might make some sense.  I visited Alaska last year, but don't recall any particular accent (except from some of the Canadians, who may have been putting it on for us visitors).

            I have a reasonably good ear, and I have a hard time distinguishing her from Minnesota, although the good professor tried to make the difference.  Go listen and see if you can tell the difference.

            I dunno.

            Torture is Wrong!

            by tom 47 on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 08:30:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  FWIW, NPR had a linguist on yesterday PM (0+ / 0-)
            on ATC.  A professor from PA, I think.  He said that her "O"s and a couple of other accent characteristics are typical of our Northwest.  I have a sister-in-law and her husband in Great Falls, and he (they) have a bit of this toned-down Upper Midwest sound, which gradually dissipates the further west you go.  I thought she was originally from Idaho, so it might make some sense.  I visited Alaska last year, but don't recall any particular accent (except from some of the Canadians, who may have been putting it on for us visitors).

            I have a reasonably good ear, and I have a hard time distinguishing her from Minnesota, although the good professor tried to make the difference.  Go listen and see if you can tell the difference.

            I dunno.

            Torture is Wrong!

            by tom 47 on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 08:30:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Idaho (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            galaxy33

            They moved when she was 3 months old.  Accent is totally fake.

      •  Biden (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        drmah, galaxy33

        He went through hell: lost a wife and a daughter and had two sons who might not have made it, one of whom is now on the way to Iraq.  Natural, human reaction.

      •  Sincere Joe Vs Vapid Varnish (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        galaxy33
        Rs are selling her like toothpaste.
        Do you eat toothpaste?
        Palin's like that Chucky puppet from the slasher movies.
        MxPlane's drowning achievement.
        There are too many sociopaths in the Republican Party.
        Please, don't elect them. But watch them. OOOOOOBAMA.
    •  His moment to shine. And he did.n/t (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      drmah, A Man Called Gloom
  •  How much the McCain campaign lies (4+ / 0-)

    It would be nice to hear more about that.  A bit more fact-checking although I've been pleased to hear a bit.

    •  Morning edition focused on that. (7+ / 0-)

      One of those truth squad things. The ME people called out both camps on things. Biden missed on a couple of nuance things. Palin's were outright LIES.

      "Half of the American people never read a newspaper. Half never vote for President. One hopes it is the same half." - Gore Vidal

      by sapper on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:48:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I would frankly like to have seen Biden (6+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sapper, zenbot, drmah, galaxy33, JDog42, WineRev

        smack Palin's lies down on national TV last night - I mean the really egregious ones, like her being so mavericky (she FIRED anyone that she disagreed with- that's not maverickness, that's abuse of power) - troopergate investigation, Bridge to Nowhere lies, etc etc.

        This joke of a beauty contestant candidate is not in the least qualified for the job she is seeking - she clearly STILL does not know "what, exactly, a Vice President does all day".  She has obvious and serious deficiencies in knowledge that a top official should have and in basic experience, she is unqualifed.

        She should be laughed off the national stage - but so many common "joe six-oack" voters want to vote for an idiot they can identify with - I still shake my head in disbelief.

        •  But notice the strategy for Biden (9+ / 0-)

          was to say little or nothing about Palin, period.  His brief was to point out MCCAIN's lies and bad policies, and he did that quite well.

          "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

          by lgmcp on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:57:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I thought he was awesome last night (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sapper, lgmcp, kengebreth, galaxy33

            to the point, statesmanlike, strong but not obnoxious like McCain was last week.

            But Palin really did deserve a public smackdown...he got a couple of good digs in (Facts matter - LOVED that) but I guess my only criticism was that I would have loved to have heard him really hit her with a couple of her very obvious falsehoods.

            I can't believe ANYONE though Palin "won" last night or was even "credible".  She didn't fall off the stage or run away sobbing, but that's about the only bar she made it over.  

        •  I think he did, within reason (4+ / 0-)

          Me, I didn't want to see Joe track down her career in Alaska. But boyoboy, he really ripped her a new one regarding foreign policy as understood by McCain-Palin.

          Beyond that "white flag of surrender" comment, which she barely got out before nearly vomiting, she didn't even respond to it.

          Further, Biden pounced on McCain's bizarre Spain comments, and again, no response.

          At one point, Palin said I think that Afghanistan needed a surge along the lines of what went on in I-Rack, but he defused that pretty handily. He burned her on Iran, he burned her on the status of Israel.

          And he did it without patronizing her, too. Meanwhile she did that cute wink bullshit, Joe sixpack, hockey mom. She was an outclassed, outmoded robot.

          She'd be a shoo-in for president in 2000, but with all the stuff going on, it's not so much a win-on-personality setup.

          "Half of the American people never read a newspaper. Half never vote for President. One hopes it is the same half." - Gore Vidal

          by sapper on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:22:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Heck Yeah! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ProgMa57

          It would also have been fun for him to say "Gov. Palin - are you all right?  You've got some sort of nervous tick going on with your eye... can we call an ambulance for you"?

          "There is little separating those that see cells as tiny machines from those that see the Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich". H. Humbert 2/6/08

          by JDog42 on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:29:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  anyone who uses the word "lame" (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          galaxy33, ProgMa57

          should be immediately disqualified from holding a public office of any kind.

          The Paulson Proposal: Dear Congress, Give me $700 billion dollars. Love, Hank

          by livjack on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:47:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Could it be? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          coffeeinamrica, galaxy33, ProgMa57

          so many common "joe six-pack" voters want to vote for an idiot they can identify with

          Its not so much they "identify" with her but so they can feel "superior" to her? The same dynamic at work vis-a-vis "have a beer with" Bush?
          "I'm smarter than the prez-ee-dent of the Yoo-nited States!" is the mental self-message.

          Hmmm......

          Hope not.

          Shalom.

          "God has given wine to gladden the hearts of people." Psalm 104:15

          by WineRev on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 07:26:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  For once (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sapper

        I thought Morning Edition exceeded expectation on their summary of the debate. Of course they were reaching to find flaws in Biden's arguments while understating Palin's huge lies and omissions. (Over these last 7 years I have found that I need to set the bar very low for NPR.) As the VP candidate might say; overall they did pretty good, dontchya think? Its all gonna be OK.

        •  Yes, NPR was good, BUT (0+ / 0-)
          there was no mention of Sarah's power grab for authority that the office of VP just doesn't have in the constitution.  No mention whatsoever, and I found her responses to Ifill to be the most frightening part of the debate.  She lusts after pOWER!  Believe her when she says it.  She would love to be President, but she'll take VP with a loose interpretation (or fabrication) of what the true powes of the office are, a la Darth Cheney.

          This woman President?  Or even Vice President?  NO!

          Torture is Wrong!

          by tom 47 on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 08:34:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  sneaky new lie creeping in (9+ / 0-)

      I noticed the new populist maverick has been railing against Wall St corruption lately, and that word showed up in Palin's talking point recitations.
      Neither the media nor the Obama campaign are picking the low-hanging fruit represented by this blithe characterization. Namely

      It ain't corruption if it's legal

      1. Wall st didn't lose trillions of other people's money through corruption, they did it legally.

      Who made it legal? Washington politicians. Which ones? the free-market, deregulatory Republicans.

      1. Washington didn't turn a blind eye to this because regulators and electees were corrupt, but because the laws were changed to allow this type of gambling.

      Who changed them? Republicans. Which ones? Almost all of them, with extra credit going to John McCain's personal economic guru, Phil Gramm.
      It's what fueled the "prosperity" of the last 8 years. That "prosperity" was really just euphoria and hallucination.
      Like everything else Republican, the economy of this decade has been nothing but wrapping paper, nothing inside.
      It would be very nice for Gramps and Barbie if voters would just assume the problems in the financial markets were all driven by "a few bad apples" operating outside the law, but that's simply a lie. As as the next vice president said last night, "Facts matter".
      I would very much like to see that lie exposed, because it forces the debate into the deregulation issue and away from vague populist pandering.

      On Liberation Day, 1/20/09, Americans will greet us with flowers and candy

      by kamarvt on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:58:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Shorter Palin: Yabadabadoo! (11+ / 0-)

    Shorter Biden: I can't believe I'm "debating" this moron. McLellan? Shout out to third grader? Maverick? Reform? Toxic waste? Someone just shoot me--please.

    To the GOP, change means doing a 360.

    by kovie on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:39:59 AM PDT

  •  You're absolutely right (15+ / 0-)

    This is not a base election -- which is why lines about planning a "white flag of surrender" are so puzzling.

    If I were a McCain handler, that would have infuriated me. Are they thinking about independents and moderates at all?

    "Get out of my secret Christmas place Sarah Palin!" --- Joe Biden (no, not really)

    by Shelbyville Manhattan on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:40:08 AM PDT

  •  God...will this ever end...lots of us... (13+ / 0-)

    knew this was over the moment he chose Palin.

    Please...put this campaign out of its misery.

    No one even cares anymore if Obama is black or might be a Muslim!  

    Somewhere...Abraham Lincoln is smiling.

    by David Kroning on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:40:55 AM PDT

  •  Why are people making a fuss over Buchanan? (8+ / 0-)

    A conservative commentator is a fan of the conservative candidate.

  •  But she connects with ordinary Americans (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sapper, galaxy33, ProgMa57, bekosiluvu

    if that talking  point is  true(which reflects how dumb people are) this country is in ALOT OF TROUBLE

    "once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right"

    by jerseyjoew on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:41:07 AM PDT

  •  McCain Camp: We've Got Obama Where We Want Him (0+ / 0-)

    The always good Sam Stein over at Huffpost publishes what is, amazingly, not snark but official McCain spin regarding the pullout from Michigan:

    "I am sure that Barack Obama and his campaign today are frustrated because despite the unmitigated negative campaign they have run for the last three weeks, despite the financial crisis that is facing our nation, despite their massive spending in the last ten days, they are having a tough time breaking 50. And certainly they are concerned that the same thing that happened to them in the primaries, where all the undecided voters broke against them in the end, is weighing heavily on their minds."

    "Immature, erratic, impulsive and subject to peer pressure"--J. Alter "Lost, erratic, out-of-touch, flailing, impulsive gambler"--E. Schmeltzer

    by Inland on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:42:41 AM PDT

  •  You won't see any debate "bounce" (11+ / 0-)

    until Sunday.   I think they will make up two or three points in the polls, and then lose them again by the end of next week.  I would not be so dismissive of Palin's performance or her effect on the votes.  Reagan was an amiable dunce, and he served two terms.  

    Keep working hard.  Work like we're losing.  That's how you win.  

    Having credibility when making an argument is the straightest path to persuasion.

    by SpamNunn on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:43:06 AM PDT

    •  look at the polls (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sapper, duha

      my opinion is informed opinion.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:43:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Insta-polls are just that. Insta. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sapper

        Give the unwashed masses some time to see the sound bites.  Also, saying that your opinion is "informed" is a nice way of saying that mine is worthless.  We'll see.  

        In any case, I always like to play like we're behind.   All of this "it's over" crap is what loses elections.  

        Having credibility when making an argument is the straightest path to persuasion.

        by SpamNunn on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:48:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I Agree, Partially (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SpamNunn, spookthesunset

          Right now, I think that the undecideds are starting to gel, and if you are an Obama supporter, in the right direction.

          The insta-polls are good because a lot of people don't sit around and watch CNN, Fox and MSNBC.  Even the network news programs draw less than 10 million viewers apiece.  In other words, what people thought last night is what is going to stick for the most part.

          This was a win for Biden because Joe didn't create any news, but Palin did (expanded VP powers), Biden pegged the impression-meter of undecideds several times and Palin rarely did, and finally, Biden avoided any major gaffes -- something that many feared and McCain tried to set the stage.

          Where I agree with you is this: we cannot play like it is a done deal and the campaigns must finish strong and play with all the starters on the court until the clock reaches zeros.  At no time can any of the Dem's campaigns relent and start appearing that they think this is a done deal because prevent defenses often prevent victories.

        •  apologies, that's not what I meant (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SpamNunn, Andhakari

          wish i could pull the comment back. What I meant was that the polls just don't agree, and I'm not making it up. You can dismiss instapolls, but they nailed the first debate.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:02:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  agree we need to keep working our asses off (6+ / 0-)

      but disagree that her "performance" (and it was theater) will make a difference.

    •  and you may well be right... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sapper, tosan1212, spookthesunset

      but the instapolls suggest otherwise. where is the rest of the bounce going to come from, given that Biden did well and that (click the Blumenthal link) VPs don't generally change votes.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:45:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Congrats to Joe. (14+ / 0-)

    He did us proud.  I was completely pleased with his performance.  

    He won't have to be hidden in a bunker.  Ever.

    Darwinic pilgrims claim the image fills them with an overwhelming feeling of logic. --The Onion

    by mem from somerville on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:43:28 AM PDT

  •  It's becoming clear that the choice of Palin was (11+ / 0-)

    the move of a desperate gambler.  How could anyone be comfortable with the thought of her becoming president.  She's dumber than the shrub and doesn't have half his admittedly marginal charm.  She treated the entire debate as a charade.  

  •  Or... but your coffee at 7-11 (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sapper

    In an Obama cup.

    http://www.7-election.com/

  •  What the media is missing (9+ / 0-)

    That not all Americans are fucking idiots. They may like hockey mom's and 6-packs but when they are hurting, when they cannot buy a car, send Jimmy to college, have no health care, they FUCKING PAY ATTENTION. They need help. After 4 years of the worst ever Administration in history anyone, I mean ANYFUCKINGONE who isn't an ideological nut case or driven by religious beliefs CANNOT vote republican.

    "The truth waits for eyes unclouded by longing." The Tao Te Ching

    by hester on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:43:32 AM PDT

  •  Missing the "VP Needs More Powers" Claim` (19+ / 0-)

    Without completely rehashing my diary from last night, I do not think it was a faux pas that Sarah Palin said she thinks the VP needs more power.  She's already said "in my administration" (Sept. 17) and I honestly thinks she thinks she's going to Washington to have real power...and she wants even more than already resides in the office of the VP.

    Considering the Constitutional disaster that is Dick Cheney, gving more power to an ingenue that knows but one SCOTUS decision and can't even square up on the periodicals she reads is extremely dangerous

  •  Somebody hand Mika Brzsdfdaski a scone please (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sapper, Shelbyville Manhattan

    So she can chew on it and shut the fuck up for a second.

    She's decided to go on a rant about how McCain at least had the decency to come on her show and spout nonsense and Barack Obama is keeping his head down and refusing to do the same.

    RRGH

  •  Payrolls fall by 159,000 in September. (8+ / 0-)

    Can the financial pundits and news outlets now quit pretending when they wonder if we're in a recession?

  •  Steve Scmidt (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DemFromCT, sapper, duha, galaxy33, JDog42
    I wouldn't be too hard on Schmidt.
    The reason they're losing is because their candidate is a loser. It would have taken an absolutely brilliant campaign coupled with a totally inept one on Obama's part for McCain to win this.
    •  how many stories can you find that (5+ / 0-)

      about how brilliant he is? news flash... Rove wasn't that smart, either. See 2006.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:47:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not making the case (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DemFromCT, sapper

        That Schmidt is brilliant, and I have never believed that of Rove either. I'm meerly stating that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

        •  that's true ;-) (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fat old man, txdemfem, imisa

          but my point is that Schmidt first needed to make McCain's case before going after Obama and going for the trick plays.

          It's like Palin going after Obama. She hasn't established herself well enough to really do that well. or, better yet, any candidate that wants to throw mud first has to establish what they are for before going after what they are against.

          Schmidt never put the foundation in place, and now the edifice is shaky. Experience counts tremendously, country first... and then he picked Palin. Oops.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by Greg Dworkin on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:59:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well yes but (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            galaxy33

            Having McCain stress experience and then pick Palin seems to me to be an example of McCain pulling the rug out from under his campaign strategy, and how can he establish Palin first when theres nothing there?
            I agree that the McCain campaign has been pretty shaky, lurching from one tactic to another, but I think most of that is because of a candidate who likes to shoot from the hip, take chances and do unpredictable things. I doubt Schmidt was responsible for "suspending the campaign" and then restarting it the next day for example.

    •  The reason they're losing (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fat old man, drmah, ausoleil

      is because their ideology is a loser.  It's just taken this long for it to be proven as such and for the people to actually see that it is a loser.  Nothing does that better than through your pocketbook.

      McCain was the best they had and he was the 'maverick'.  Had they run a more typical neocon or fundy republican this race wouldn't even have been this close.  

      •  That and couple into incompetent politics (0+ / 0-)

        Selling McCain/Palin was going to be tough -- this is a change election and Obama is a great candidate -- but the truth is that there is very little foot left for the McCain campaign to shoot.  They've blown the rest off with their repeated misfires.

        My only worry now is that they get lucky.

  •  Last night (10+ / 0-)

    Sarah Palin threw Bush under the bus (good for her, but bad for the support of Bush Republican support!) and she insulted the entire East Coast.

    She was also very disrespectful to Biden.

    Do you want a VP who says "ain't" and "you betcha?"

    Sarah Palin, she be failin', voters be bailin', time to bring Quayle in?

    by wry twinger on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:44:00 AM PDT

  •  My rightwing Mom doesn't like Palin. (5+ / 0-)

    Mom's a Republican in her 70s.   Thinks Palin is a shallow Barbie, and kind of arrogant.

    She'll vote for McCain, unfortunately... but she's VERY pissed at him for picking this woman she consideres a bubblehead, and little more than eye candy.

    (And yes, that's AFTER the debate.  We spoke this AM.)

    JOHN McCAIN = George W. Bush's 3rd term.

    by chumley on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:44:12 AM PDT

  •  Keep her talking! (5+ / 0-)

    The instant polls which almost all show Biden winning the pseudo-debate are going a long way toward restoring my faith in the intelligence of the American electorate.
    I think Sarah Palin is burying John McCain alive.

    I could have been a soldier... I had got part of it learned; I knew more about retreating than the man that invented retreating. --Mark Twain

    by NogodsnomastersMary on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:44:16 AM PDT

  •  Making news..... (4+ / 0-)

    The media is just trying to make news. They create problems that are not there, they raise false issues, they get down and personal -- and all of it is just word/fodder. Fuck the media.
     OK, here is one story that is not picked up in the sense that I frame it here: huge banks are growing much larger with instant government approval -- WF just got Wachovia for $15BB, snatching it away from Citi, this news on the wire early this a.m. The story that is being missed is massive banks conglomerations, without anti-monopoly protest or regulation. We are going to end up with about five giant national banks in this country -- and nobody is raising an eyebrow.
      Paul Krugman, where are you?
    Get to work Press!
    regards,
    TED ROOSEVELT

  •  Pundits stuck on non-mega-disaster, but she is (6+ / 0-)

    still just not presidential.

    I she may fly with causual Friday 20something secretaries.

    I do not think she works AT ALL for 60something voters.

    All the ya betchas in the world do not convince someone who wants more than someone who sounds like a valley girl.

    Tax Paradigms, Feed Imaginations

    by jhpdb on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:44:52 AM PDT

  •  One thing I noticed, scarcely mentioned (18+ / 0-)

    I don't think Palin's wingnut fan club is going to like her discussion about same sex marriage.  She intoned the ritual incantation of reserving the word marriage for one man and one woman, but otherwise she gave gay people just about everything -- acceptance, respect, and all of the privileges attendant upon marriage except the name.  Substantively, in other words, she agreed with Biden and Obama and took the issue off the table.

    It's not good enough for me, of course, but it's certainly better than I expected.

  •  The Next 4 or 8 (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    drmah, JG in MD

    After last night's debate I'm preparing myself right for an Obama presidency. That this man (the kind of man who 10 years ago would be laughed off the political stage because of his nefarious accomplices) is now being groomed to be the 44th president of the United States of America is going to challenge the country in ways I can hardly even visualize right now. The next four or eight years will be interesting to say the least.

    -Miguel

  •  ABC struggling to be "fair and balanced" (6+ / 0-)

    It was downright amusing watching Charlie Gibson, George Stephanapolous, and Dianne Sawyer trying to drag controversy out of their panel of "experts" last night after the debate.

    Two of the three "experts" were Republican operatives, and none of them could be persuaded to say that Palin scored any points.

  •  I'm with you: Biden is the story (9+ / 0-)

    I've disagreed with Biden many times in the past, but I am consistently impressed with him as a VP candidate and Obama's judgment in picking him. He did knock it out of the park last night, and though I haven't been undecided since Edwards dropped out of the primaries, I'm even more enthusiastic about the Obama/Biden ticket after last night (if that is possible).

    (-8.38, -8.00) "If Republicans will quit telling lies about Democrats then we'll quit telling the truth about Republicans." --Adlai Stevenson

    by hyperstation on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:45:22 AM PDT

    •  my faith in biden is vindicated, and then some (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hyperstation, RantNRaven, galaxy33

      I wrote a year ago that he would be the best candidate, but that dumb ole America wouldn't ever nominate him.  

      http://tdh46.typepad.com/...

      By default, I was for Edwards because he was the only one who had articulated solid positions on health care and other urgent matters for most Americans.  

      When Obama broke out of the pack and when the Clintons went negative on him, I went for Obama.  My faith in HIM was reinforced by his pick of Joe Biden.  With those two in office we actually have a chance to pull ourselves out of the mire.

  •  The debate did her no good because the thought (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK, galaxy33

    after reflects so badly on her and that is what people remember about debates.

    No one will remember anything of substance she said.

    •  Did she even say anything of substance (0+ / 0-)

      for people to remember?

      "Truth never damages a cause that is just."~~~Mohandas K. Gandhi -9.38/-6.26

      by LynneK on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 09:05:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  She told us all we need to know (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LynneK, galaxy33

        She let us know that she not only approved of Cheney's behavior as VP but that she'd like to expand on it.

        She proved during that debate that we wouldn't just get a third term of Bush/Cheney, we'd get it in spades.

        Naithom "Tikkun Olam (to heal and repair the world) You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it" Rabbi Tarfun

        by Naithom on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 10:26:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Morning Joe... (4+ / 0-)

    seems to have decided to play "balance" by going after Obama today.  They're pissed that Obama hasn't coming on Morning Joe.  They are simultaneously saying that Obama isn't answering tough questions and that Palin won last night (by not answering questions).  

    I'm getting a little concerned that now that Obama has opened it up, the media will try to tighten the race.

    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." -Dr. King

    by proseandpromise on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:45:51 AM PDT

    •  Yup (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sapper, NogodsnomastersMary

      They even acknowledge that McCain had nothing of any substance to say. "But at least he came on"

      The tightening game is definitely on.

    •  Yeah, but it's Morning Joe! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sapper, galaxy33

      Not exactly an even-handed forum to begin with.  

      Barack Obama is going to be the next President of the United States.

      by LarsThorwald on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:47:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yep also. He turned against Mika. (0+ / 0-)

      He seems to be loading down his frustration on her.

      And, what's this old crap about Obama's experience? Has anybody gone into what exactly "experience" means? Is experience the same for everybody? Is it a "linear" function of time? Can I experience more today than yesterday? Are some activities experience-rich and others not? Does genetics make you more or less capable to "absorb" experience?

      These were my thoughts as Mika fell in the Scarborough "Obama's experience" trap.

      John McCain is contemptuosly elitist and bitter.

      by carlosbas on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:01:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  give Joe 30 seconds and he starts lecturing Obama (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      galaxy33

      about his failures as a candidate, based on Joe's vast experience as a Republican who won a few elections when we were all in diapers. What a crank. He's the one who said: "Barack Obama? Nice guy, but he's gonna get massacred." By Hillary. This time last year. He's working his way up (down?) to Lou Dobbs' level, or maybe Hannity's.

  •  Word spray. Squid ink. Gibberish. (17+ / 0-)

    My wife is the best barometer for this stuff.  She was appalled by McCain, and said Obama won the night, and it would show.  It did.

    She actually walked out of the room last night at one point, following Palin's statement that she would not answer the questions the media elite want her to.  

    The deal sealer was when Biden choked up, and Palin responded like, in the words of my wife, who is the sweetest, most wholesome woman I know, "a f*cking robot."

    That is the moment, according to my child bride, "Palin lost a good chunk of women.  She crammed too hard, and it shows."

    I just kept repeating my new favorite mantra in response to every Palin "answer."  

    "Word spray!  Squid ink!  Gibberish!  Gaaagggh!"  

    I was told to go to bed and calm down.  

    Barack Obama is going to be the next President of the United States.

    by LarsThorwald on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:46:10 AM PDT

  •  I listened on radio, saw some this AM on HuffPo/& (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    WestWind, LynneK

    I could hear Biden's emotion clearly on the radio last night.  When I watched it, it wasn't as powerful to me as hearing it. (Maybe just because it was second time.)

    I was pleased by how well he did.  I expected Gov.Palin to do well.  I was not surprised, but would have liked a couple of her lies "called out",(sorry I can't remember specifics.  HuffPo has whole thing on video)but the format didn't allow for response to everything.  Biden's "punchline" summary of "no maverick" was excellent.

    And I thought his saying if he had to step in as President answer was wonderful.  How to get better debates and better questions is the Big Question.  Thanks for reminder of history.....

  •  In other News (4+ / 0-)

    NH just broke for Obama

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/...

    And I don't care what schmidt did or didnt do. Bottom line, they are all useless idiots. I'm glad the Rovian tactics wont work this time. Besides, lets give our boys David and David a bit of Credit. They have been exceptional throughout all this.

    Bush --- cocaine-sniffing draft dodger

    by max1505 on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:46:29 AM PDT

  •  Who is Sarah Palin? (7+ / 0-)

    Because there's been so little that the public has seen of Sarah Palin, every showing becomes an event where we are asked to make broad judgments of who Palin is.  

    Is Palin the confident and sassy politician reading from the teleprompter at the republican convention, or is she the confident and defiant politician reading from index cards at the debate, or is she the politician exuding a lack of confidence and depth in grasping for answers that we saw in the recent television interviews?  

    I think we need to see more of Sarah Palin to know for sure, and the Sunday morning news shows would be a good place to start.  The fact that Palin still has not appeared on these forums is perhaps just as telling as any of her recent showings.

  •  Buchanan had an on-air orgasm last night (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sapper, JulieUnplugged, BlurdTossum

    :-p

  •  Is it me or were morning people spinning (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cassandra77

    this debate as a huge Palin win? Bloviatin' Joe had Pat Buchanan in the NY studio, CNN hovered around a McCain-Palin debate-watching party in Poland, Ohio, and both had Rudy 9/11iani on.

    In between was a bunch of fussing about what middle america thinks about nukular weppins.

    I thought I was going to vomit.

    "Half of the American people never read a newspaper. Half never vote for President. One hopes it is the same half." - Gore Vidal

    by sapper on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:46:44 AM PDT

  •  The Special Needs bullshit needs to stop. (11+ / 0-)

    Palin has been a mother of a special needs child for what, 5 months?  A baby she uses as a political prop and which her pregnant teenager uses to hide her bump.

    Palin has not one inkling of an idea about the heartache and never-ending stresses and red tape involved with special needs children.  In homes and in schools.

    The obligation to endure gives us the right to know. -- Jean Rostand

    by Silent Spring on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:46:52 AM PDT

    •  And how. If she really knew, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sagittarius, mattinjersey, galaxy33

      she would drop out. I don't really know for sure what our son has, whether it's ADD, ADHD, asbergers (sp) syndrome, whatever. All we know is that we've seen four therapists and psychiatrists, he's been on a range of behavioral drugs, and without all of that and all of our attention, he'd no doubt land in a prison cell.

      SP has no. friggin. clue.

      "Half of the American people never read a newspaper. Half never vote for President. One hopes it is the same half." - Gore Vidal

      by sapper on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:09:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Palin Lusts for Power of VEEP a la Cheney (9+ / 0-)

    only more so.  That was apparent in her response to the question as to whether the Veep role is part of the executive with its restraints, or whether it was part of the legislative.

    It's obvious from her response she really relishes the prospect of presiding over the senate (being a bully in other words) and enjoying the powers of the veep as expanded by Cheney -- along with the lack of constitutional constraint on the role.  

    Of course she did not answer the question directly, but rather revelled in what great "flexibility" (read: LATITUDE, read: POWER) the role would give her.  

    It's like she'd be Goebbels to McCain's Hitler.  She was licking her lips, winking and wiggling her little body with excitement at the prospect of having that "Flexibility."

    I think this segment was the scariest and most disturbing part of the debate, and needs a detailed diary.

    A socialist is a free market capitalist who's been mugged by the market. -- TimeZoned

    by bekosiluvu on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:46:59 AM PDT

  •  Palin: Clueless and happy about it (6+ / 0-)

    The NPR fact check of some of the points made last night was pretty brutal on Palin.  Of course, the fact that Palin had snappy comebacks may impress some people more than the facts.  I thought her chipper demeanor was tiring.  

  •  Biden walked the tightrope perfectly. (9+ / 0-)

    Of course he could've blown her out of the water.  He could have debated her the way he would have debated Mitt Romney, or Hillary Clinton, or any competent politician.  He could've won decisively -- but if he had, nobody would've been saying so this morning; all they'd be saying is how he shamefully beat up on the poor little woman.  He would've lost by winning.  As it is, he won by doing what he was there to do: he articulated the Obama-Biden ticket's plans and philosophy, and defended masterfully against Palin's attacks.

    McCain '08: Same crap, different asshole. -- Hunter

    by snazzzybird on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:47:27 AM PDT

  •  Palin's performance last night... (6+ / 0-)

    ...was great, if she was interviewing for a commentator position at FAUX.  She proved she can lie on any topic, parrot any ridiculous right-wing position, and do it with a wink and smile.  Ya sure, donchyaknow!

    McPain/Quaylin didn't just jump the shark, they strafed it as well.

  •  What will be interesting for me is (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NogodsnomastersMary, MariaWr

    how the House Republicans are going to justify voting against a bill w/o pork on Monday and voting for a bill w pork on Friday.

  •  Media missing: seems NH is only Kerry state that (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    drmah, LynneK

    is really, seriously competitive while Iowa and probably NM are already likely Obama, and all of the following 04 Bush states are competitive: OH, VA, FL, IN, MO, CO, NV.

    Not Ideas about the Thing but the Thing Itself - Wallace Stevens

    by catchlightning on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:47:35 AM PDT

  •  dead on analysis (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    govib, galaxy33, rubyclaire, JG in MD, evdebs

    Your analysis matches mine.

    There are 2 Palin Questions:

    1. Can she walk and chew gum? Will she make a huge gaffe?
    1. Can you imagine her being president?

    Pundits focused on #1. Voters focused on #2.

    She does not appear to be a quick study. From what I could gather, she had about a half-dozen memorized scripts. Since she didn't answer questions or stay close to topic, it wasn't difficult to turn any question into one of her scripts. But even there she wasn't too good. Her online delivery of the scripts was too fast, her jokes ("say it aint so, Joe") were complete misses, and her jump editing from one script to another led to nonsense.

    I was very happy, but not surprised with Biden. He did very well in some of the primary debates. He also did very well in his spin role after the Obama-McCain debate.

    Finally, I wonder if the pundits (Joanna Weiss and  Cokie) who thought they caught Biden in a gaffe for using the term "Bosniac" are going to publicly eat crow.

  •  "Gosh darmit, there you go again Joe (5+ / 0-)

    Yes I'm a vapid moran, but I'm cutzie a hockey mom and oh vote for John McCain."

    That was the extent of her message last night.

    She exceeded expectations alright.  When the expectations are set so damn low that by her simply pieceing together semi coherent sentences and not drooling on the mic, it means she exceeded expectations.  

    That is not what I want in a president.  She can run the local PTO but for fucks sake, I don't want her near the nukyular buttons.  Oh and BTW, that whole nukyular thing is fucking annoying coming from some faux cowboy let alone from a goddamn moose hunter from Alaska who is just a replay of the fucking twit we have in the White House now, only in drag.  I believe we've seen that YouTube clip with Rudy Ghouliani and Donald Trump and it wasn't cool then.

  •  OK, to be almost completely shallow (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cassandra77, drmah, galaxy33, JG in MD

    it's so clear we have the best looking, most attractive in terms of personality, and, dare I say it, sexiest ticket, in Barack and Joe.  And I would not underestimate that as a factor for women voters (yes, I am one) - it was and is part of Bill Clinton's considerable power, and both our guys, while they may not have exactly the megawattage of Clinton, are very attractive to, and comfortable with, strong women.  I think that's a powerful electoral advantage - especially since neither Palin nor McCain are particularly attractive for women voters.

    •  What She Said (0+ / 0-)

      So few politicians are good-looking. That we have two of them coming to the White House has my old eyes feeling perky again.

      Joe Biden: Get up! Al Gore: Pray, and use your feet! Harriet Tubman: Keep going!

      by JG in MD on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:02:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  OK, got the java (5+ / 0-)

    Biden was straight-up, reasoned and very very real. What's not to like?  He could do the big job.
    Palin was a Reagan robot. Spouting rehearsed answers to questions never asked.  Holding nose and looking deeper, she would be a disaster.

    The big story being missed I believe is the financial disaster unfolding in Europe as the euro bank exposure to the derivative disease becomes known and their lack of central back-up system will help crash the smaller countries economies.  

    The reward for conformity was that everyone liked you except yourself. - Rita Mae Brown

    by Wyote on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:48:49 AM PDT

  •  Joe's Smile/Grin (6+ / 0-)

    when Sarah would tell a truthiness was hilarious

  •  In economic news... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ybruti, galaxy33, Wyote

    one thing some people in the media are getting--deeper into the real causes of the credit meltdown:

    NY Times article on a SEC Rule Change in 2004 (requested by Paulson as Goldman Sachs CEO) let banks pile up new debt and risk to astronomical levels

    (-8.38, -8.00) "If Republicans will quit telling lies about Democrats then we'll quit telling the truth about Republicans." --Adlai Stevenson

    by hyperstation on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:49:25 AM PDT

  •  Let's drive McCain into the 30s. (5+ / 0-)

    It's the decade he came from, so it's an appropriate percentage for him.

    -5.38/-3.74 I've suffered for my country. Now it's your turn! --John McCain with apologies to Monty Python's "Protest Song"

    by Rich in PA on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:49:40 AM PDT

  •  Barack Obama on ESPN's Mike & Mike (0+ / 0-)

    You can download the podcast here: http://sports.espn.go.com/...

    Be a reporter, not a repeater

    by Plays in Traffic on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:49:58 AM PDT

  •  just some kudos here (5+ / 0-)

    your morning discussions of the polls has been superb - and this analysis of the debate makes a lot sense as well - thanks for giving the before work crowd some good substantive reading

  •  I agree on Biden. First, he gets a bad rap for (5+ / 0-)

    being a loose cannon.  You seldom get the candor and breadth of knowledge in the senate that he has.  He is one of the very few that will get me to watch the bobbleheads on Sunday morning.
     Second, he is the consumate politician, which may be damning with feint praise, but I mean he understands timing and opportunity.  No one has to tell him twice how to handle a situation.
     Palin is a shotput. If she happens to hit somebody it will hurt, if not she craters.

    America, we are better than these last 8 years. We are a better country than this.

    by moondancing on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:50:01 AM PDT

  •  New attack ad from Michelle Obama (17+ / 0-)

    Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious

    by Scarce on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:50:20 AM PDT

  •  Her record in Alaska (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    galaxy33, JDog42, MariaWr

    From what I understand she misrepresented her record in Alaska. The pipeline is not being built and will cost Alaskans a lot of money (they may not get the earmarks that they have in the past.) Also, she opposed the Permanent Fund Corp. no longer investing in companies that are part of the Darfur problem. Let's get some fact checking from there!

  •  I am so out of (4+ / 0-)

    coffee.  There are six, maybe seven, beans left.

    Should I suck on them?  Grind them into a paste I rub on my gums?

  •  Biden, I understand, surged in favorability (3+ / 0-)

    after the debate. I can sincerely say I like him much more now because he erased doubts about his ability to stay on message.

    John McCain is contemptuosly elitist and bitter.

    by carlosbas on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:50:52 AM PDT

  •  I think we really need to ask if we want CUTE (6+ / 0-)

    as a VP?  When she was given an question she couldn't answer or needed to go into depth she responded with cute.

    Is this how this person would as VP or Pres would deal with world leaders and tough situtations?  Cute isn't going to engender confidence and respect around the world.

    Also in the WSJ article about Palin this week they said that:

    Meanwhile, the more experienced advisers assigned to her by the McCain campaign are accustomed to working with seasoned candidates, not someone "completely green on the national stage," one strategist said. Several Republican backers have griped that the campaign has put the candidate in difficult situations, from sitting for high-profile television interviews to popping into meetings with foreign leaders, some of whom made sexist remarks, said several officials.  

    Do they think cute combats sexism?

    I heard on morning radio here on the east coast that there was a lot of sexual innuendos during last nights debate.  

    Do we really want that from our VP and possible President?

    If u will not vote for the Dem. nominee, no matter who that is, go apologize 2 the youth of this nation. U've helped put in "100 years of war no Choice McCain."

    by Clytemnestra on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:51:00 AM PDT

  •  Are the (0+ / 0-)

    Ohio undecideds really that impressed with Palin now?  I keep reading they adored her.

  •  I went into that debate (4+ / 0-)

    hoping to see Palin fall on her face, and came out of it thinking how amazing Joe Biden was.  He really is the story, and the pundits just haven't realized this yet.

  •  I thought Biden was superb even in comparison to (3+ / 0-)

    someone like Palin who refused to answer most of the moderator's questions and turned each rebuttal into a stump speech of talking points. It's unfortunate that the MSM must play the bleed and lead game of corporate profit, but then all MSM being in the hands of about six major corporations is telling in and of itself. I saw an interview with the late Paul Newman where he reaffirmed his characterization of television as "insidious". I agree.

    "Watch your top knot." ~Will Geer in Jeremiah Johnson

    by cmorrison on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:51:46 AM PDT

  •  Joe just helped seal up Pennsylvania (12+ / 0-)

    I got an e-mail from a buddy in Uniontown.  Was right on the fence the whole campaign.

    Full e-mail:  "That is why we love our Senator Biden.  He's the real deal.  I think I'm with you guys now.  She can't hack it.  Joe knows his sh*t."

    Barack Obama is going to be the next President of the United States.

    by LarsThorwald on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:52:19 AM PDT

  •  Being from a small town in the midwest... (6+ / 0-)

    ...I hate how the pundits consistently say that Sarah Palin speaks the "language of America" with her "heckuva" "a shucks" "joe six-pack" abuse of the English language. Just as picking her displayed John McCain's and the GOP's disdain for women (because she's a woman, women will vote for her) this "dumbing-down" of the English language insults small town Americans everywhere.

    "People in small towns are dumb! We have to talk like them to communicate!! Awe shucks! Say it ain't so, Joe! There you go agin!!" Yeeeeaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrggggggh!!!

  •  Conspiracy Theory Alert ... (0+ / 0-)

    CONSPIRACY THEORY ALERT!

    Ever since the "fundamentals of the economy are strong" Obama has been gaining in the polls.  The media are bored and they will turn against him and "find" a story to fixate on in about 5, 4, 3, 2, ... well ... today.
     
    Then they'll spend about a week or two berating him and elevating the McCain/Palin ticket.  Ironically, his poll numbers will drop too (* side eye *); the poll numbers ALWAYS mirror the media's mood.  Always.
     
    Then the story will be "how did Obama let it all slip away." ... "why can't this guy close the deal?" ... "why don't blue collar folks trust him" ... basically the media will run McCain's campaign for him.  He can save some of his attack ad $$.
     
    Then, they will get bored and "find" a story about McCain ... a game changer ... maybe Palin will slip and say something stupid in a pizza joint.  Then they'll say "is there even enough time for Obama to comeback?"  ... then ... someone in the media will have a meeting and they'll argue about who they think should win this time  ... and once they decide, they'll give the election to that person during the week before the election ... but they'll make it a tight race so that they they can fart around on election night with a bunch of suspenseful map manipulation.

    The End.
     

  •  McCain/Palin wave White Flag of Surrender in MI (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Agathena, govib, fisheye, JDog42

    Thats the real story!

    Make them OWN their failures.

    by Misterpuff on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:52:37 AM PDT

  •  How can you be for change without fingerpointing (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK, galaxy33

    Sarah Palin did what I predicted:  Lie, then whine when caught lying.

    She only had a few 'deer in the headlights' moments, such as the last question on tone.  Biden did a good job, explaining how he had a history of reaching across the aisle.  Palin just stumbled, looked a bit scared, and repeated "tax cuts" a few more times.

    She did okay, and probably reassured the "base" that she wasn't quite the lightweight she was with Couric.  Still, the GOP base is the 19% that still approves of the job Bush is doing...  Often, Palin sounded like she was talking to very young kids... or W.

    Meanwhile, Biden was great.  Stumbling a little in the beginning, he hit his stride, got off the best zinger (on the real cost of the McCain health care proposal:  "That's your bridge to nowhere.") and out single-parented Palin.  His story is compelling, and touches Main Street far more than Palin's "no, I'm not going to answer the question" bit of cloying annoyance.

    The debate won't change many minds, if any.  But the ones they do change are swinging for Obama.

    "What doesn't have credibility today is the truth." -- Bill Moyers, The Daily Show 6/22/05

    by Baron Dave on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:52:50 AM PDT

  •  Good morning, DemFromCT! (7+ / 0-)

    What's the news the MSM are missing?

    That most Americans actually support an economic intervention, if it's explained coherently?

    That most Americans don't care about the former-almost-Miss-Alaska?

    That most Americans are tired of wild, maverick dodging about and want a stable hand at the helm?  (Even Charles Krauthammer has noticed that.)

    That most Americans are trimming their budgets and their lifestyles, foregoing conveniences they once mistook for necessities, driving up unemployment in the service industries?

    That the Red Cross begging for donations after Ike - unlike the flood of donations that typically roll in after most natural disasters - because most of us simply have nothing left to give?

    That the GOP is trying to exclude over 100,000 Americans from the voter rolls, almost all of them in low-income precincts, based on the flimsiest of pretexts?

    Pick any of the above, at any other time, and you'd have a big story.  But it's 32 days out from what looks to be a watershed election, and Congress has spent the week dithering over how to structure an intervention, and Sarah Palin was on TV last night, and that's about the limit of the MSM's multi-tasking capacity.

  •  Her answer on Cheney was awful (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RantNRaven, galaxy33, Wisteacher

    and showed that she had absolutely no knowledge of fourth branch's extra-constitutional behavior these past eight years.  Biden pounced on that ignorance, too.

    •  All she knows about him is that he shot his (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      galaxy33

      friend while hunting, which makes him an ass in her eyes (one thing I can agree with her on). But then she says to herself, How could a guy like that be scary? Can't even handle a loaded weapon....

      But he can stack a loaded Justice Department.

  •  What is the media missing? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK, galaxy33, utopia, Wisteacher

    The story is this:

    For eight years we have been ruled - not governed - by a cabal whose response to real situations was to deny the reality, address completely different scenarios with bombastic, simplistic, foolish and damaging responses, then deny that they were mistaken.

    How was Palin's responses to the Ifill's questioning any different?  McCain/Palin is truly the bastard child of Bush/Cheney.

    When "stupidity" suffices, why search for any other reason?

    by wozzle on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:54:59 AM PDT

  •  Palin/Reagan (5+ / 0-)

    Same folksy bullshit. Does that really work? Don't people catch on to the used car salesman pander?

    And her gollies and hecks. Can anyone see her in a negotiation on the hot line? "Well, golly. You tell that mean Mr. Brzktidlsa from Dictoria that we've got a heck of a lot of good folks here."

    And her blather about energy production in Alaska. Yes, billions of barrels of oil. How long would ALL that oil keep America going? A few months? A few years? How many millions of barrels do we piss through in a year? Tens of millions, isn't it?

    I lived through Reagan and I thought: Well, thank God that's over with. Then came Dubya. If Palin gets into the White House, I'm leaving the country. Because it means there is literally no hope left for this country.

  •  Yet again Morning Joe .......... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    galaxy33, Wisteacher

    makes me want to throw up, they step all over themselves trying to make out that Obama is hiding from the 'hard' questioning news agencies. What a bunch of trash, but hey that is what Joe does best.

    Oh wait, he is a bit better misogynist, marignally better at crapping on everything Mika says. Not that she is any better with truth telling tho.

    Of course Sarah met expectations...........there were no expectations besides her not falling down 3 times on the way to the podium.

    But somehow Republicans expect people to think she could take over as President should McCain become too ill to serve............... That snowball wouldn't stand a chance in hell.

    We have suffered Republican speaking points for years and years. At least the trash talking had a tad bit of class when Rove was writting the scripts. Buchannan is sooooooooooo last century. He seems to think that someone believes his partisan butchery of events.  

    •  It's not just repub talking points (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LynneK, galaxy33

      its the repub access to the media.

      They have unfettered access and the unbelievable willing cooperation of those fuckwit reporters and talking heads in getting full-on psychological propaganda blasted out at americans 24/7.

      step all over themselves trying to make out that Obama is hiding from the 'hard' questioning news agencies.

      That's what is happening with Palin, not Obama.

      They are using projection to pin their clear weakness onto Obama's strength.

      It's  not just lying, it is a willful attempt to deceive.

      The people responsible for it should be punched in the face really hard.

      ANd then fired.

  •  Palin's Remark About Health Insurance (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    govib, galaxy33, Wisteacher

    Regarding the McCain "voucher" plan, I have not heard anyone mention the provision about allowing people to go across state lines to access health care that's better. In other words, some states will have ridiculously low levels of coverage to force their residents to elsewhere, putting the burden on states that provide better service. A typically conservative/Republican idea, make the other guy pay for what you don't want to pay for.

    The Democratic Party 2008: Defeatists, Bomb Throwers and Whiners need not apply.

    by Splicer on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:55:57 AM PDT

    •  They are northeastern elitists! (0+ / 0-)

      You can't go across state lines in the Mountain West! And how can you do that in Alaska? They truly have a terrible "policy shop". (I guess that's to be expected when it consists of the press guy, the web designer, and Al from Accounting.)

  •  I Have A Couple Of Different Thoughts (7+ / 0-)

    (1) I thought Biden was spot on. He keep his cool. Was short and too the point must of the time. He didn't get into the policy "weeds" but showed he has forgotten more than Palin knows.

    (2) Palin really needs to stop using slang. I grew up and now live in a small rural town. It is a slam against us that we would use slang in a forum as important as a business meeting, much less a VP debate.

    (3) Palin needs to slow down and use some periods/pauses. I was paying attention but at times what she was saying morphed into the teacher from Charlie Brown and the next thing I know she had stopped speaking and I had to rewind my DVD.

    (4) When she said to Biden that she was happy that Biden was with her on Israel, and they cut to her. I almost expected to see a sucker punch some from the left on the frame and land on her face.

    (5) It seemed throughout the debate when Biden would mention a bill or a government term, when Palin responded she just used those back in her response to appear she understood what she was talking about.

    (6) I felt Biden's line, history is a prelude, was the best line of the night when Palin kept bitching he was talking about the past.

    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle

    by webranding on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:56:27 AM PDT

  •  Sarah Palin's debate is part of the strategy (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DemFromCT, RenMin

    you know, on reflecting on it (a) Joe Biden is awesome and I take back everything negative I've ever expressed about him and (b) Sarah Palin didn't say anything new or interesting in the debate. She "survived" or maybe "did spectacularly well" in some people's eyes or did "poorly" - but the point is that she didn't introduce anything new that says, okay, here's how McCain will be different from Bush, here's how we're going to bring change, etc.

    The problem is that the Schmidt Strategy is still making it all about Obama... but that doesn't work anymore, because the Obama campaign basically let them do that during the summer by not attacking McCain, and they're not letting them do that now. This is why McCain's name came up almost twice as much as Obama's name by firstread's count. So every time a "persuadable" voter gets comfortable enough with Obama, they get persuaded, and then it just keeps getting harder and harder for them.

  •  Eddie Murphy said it best years ago after filming (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    drmah, Wisteacher

    a movie inside a prison. He said emphatically, "thank God we have prisons". Unfortunatly we seem hell bent on continuing to incarcerate many and hence our prison population grows, but the one's belong there somehow find a back door out. The lies Palin invoked last night with regards to Biden's support of McCain's Iraq policy and the ads we have seen from the McSame/Palin camp are characteristic of the day to day life and pathology of a prison population (I know I worked in Corrections 14 years). So how come we are ready to throw Bill Clinton in prison for a very bad indiscretion and trying to weasle out of it and yet we allow the blatant lies and abuse of the Constitution by those who sing "God Bless America" and wear flag lapel pins to run free? That in of it's self (the wearing of the lapel pins) while shredding the Constitution for one's own personal gains should be treason......and in time of war, the last time I checked that was a capital crime.

    Words escape me, but deeds are always noticed

    by utopia on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:57:07 AM PDT

  •  Re: Global warming... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK, galaxy33

    Okay...so she references "climate shifts" as a reason for not thinking man is the main cause of the current global warming crisis.

    She ALSO believes the literalism of the bible that the earth is only ~ 6000 years old.

    I can only assume she was talking about Noah's flood, and not any of those pesky ice ages the bible neglects to account for.

  •  And another issue... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    galaxy33, JG in MD, RenMin, Lopez99
    Palin's rube act was offensive to anyone familiar with rural America, a queen bee high-school cheerleader mimicking a hayseed classmate.

    When "stupidity" suffices, why search for any other reason?

    by wozzle on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:58:18 AM PDT

  •  I love Joe Biden (8+ / 0-)

    What a great human being, the kind of leader we need in the White House.

    I even love his flaws.

    Great choice, Obama!

  •  Tina Palin (0+ / 0-)

    Biden may have won, but it looks like Tina Fey may get the weekend off.

    http://www.wilytrax.com

  •  "I don't want somebody like me to run the country (11+ / 0-)

    I want somebody better."

    My wife said that about twenty minutes into the debate.  She has a Masters degree and sharp instincts but is nonpolitical; she votes Democratic but doesn't have an interest in all the ins and outs of politics and political issues.  She was a Clinton supporter.

    She watched this debate though she doesn't want to watch the others.  It was all about checking out Sarah Palin.

    And she dismissed Palin.  In fact, I think my wife was a little insulted that someone so second-team (my wife said, "She's not Varsity" at one point) should be on the stage.

    I wonder how many American women played-out this kind of thing in their minds.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4syxU

    by algebrateacher on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:58:50 AM PDT

    •  Apparently there's a backlash among 25-50 yr (6+ / 0-)

      old women that goes along the lines of, here is the attractive woman who gets promoted over me and then I have to listen to her dumb instructions and cover her ass when she screws up... It's supposedly a younger generation's equivalent of how older female Clinton supporters saw Obama as the young black guy who gets promoted over them.

      I wish I could remember where I read about this... it sounds like something you'd find in the XX Factor blog on Slate, but I'm not sure.

  •  The media isn't missing anything so much as (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    the news shows being produced are themselves being produced by idiots.
    Sadly, many producers of entertainment television are people who just can't write. They tried, they did their best, and failed utterly.
    So they got their revenge by getting into the production side, the direction side of shows.
    And when a REALLY bad producer (writer) gets involved with a show, you can start to see it die... painfully.
    News shows are different in the fact that they have a closer link to the audience. Producers see the reactions to the shows and begin to react accordingly.
    But, sadly, the older said producers get, the more they tend to get stubborn. (It didn't work the 200th time in a row, but "by God" it will certainly work now!).
    It doesn't work.
    With few exceptions, the media is still following along the same patterns that now old and stubborn producers (and boards) had stumbled onto 'what works' back in the late 90's.
    Today however isn't the late 90's, and the public has begun to move past them.
    They'll catch up. In about two years or so. By then, the public will have moved on to something else.
    Can it be solved? Yes. But it requires the production companies to listen and install a secondary tier between public likes and dislikes without it coming from the media. They only see themeselve that way, and any trend seen tends to be... oh... fuzzy looking for a bit due to their own opinions as a mask.

    So... McCain was a POW for five years. He keeps mentioning it... does this mean he thinks of America as one giant POW camp that he wants to run?

    by RElland on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:58:58 AM PDT

  •  Rope a dope. And I do mean dope. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sagittarius, LynneK, galaxy33

    .

    Campaign McCain thought it really did a number on Obama/Biden, via temper tantrum, and wringing a concession out of VP Debate organizers and Obama/Biden to make the format what it was last night; presumably to Palin's advantage (to give her just enough time to blather out her lying points, but not enough time for the 'bou in the Headlights thing to happen.

    It backfired.  Palin had just enough time to look like the fool she is, rushing to cram-in all her 1,000 Points of Stupid into each 90-or-so second time it was her turn; conversely, it forced Biden to stay crisp, concise and focused.  

    Worked like a charm -  for the Democratic Ticket.

    BenGoshi
    _______________________________________

    "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

    by BenGoshi on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:00:32 AM PDT

    •  She held up 'ok' for the first 1/2 hour (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BenGoshi, Sagittarius, galaxy33

      then the incoherence started. I liked the part where she called herself a 'main streeter' and then said that the toxic waste on Main Street was affecting Wall Street. Self-esteem, anyone?

      There was a diary here explaining that when Palin reverses herself, it's a sign that she is lying. The title was: "How can you tell when Palin is lying."

      No, it's not when her lipstick is moving, it's when she reverses herself.

      This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

      by Agathena on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:50:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This Morning's Today Show Post Debate Anaylsis (10+ / 0-)

    I just watched a segment on the Today show where they interviewed 7 undecided swing state women voters. They admitted going in that the group was skewed republican with 5 of them having been Bush voters, only one who voted for Kerry and one new voter.

    I thought, "my god here we go!"

    I was thrilled that 5 of the 7 thought Biden did a better job than Palin and the same number thought Palin was not up to being Veep. That is out of what I would consider a seriously biased sample.

    Great job Joe!!!

    The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation--HDT

    by cazcee on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:00:37 AM PDT

  •  Sarah Palin's... (6+ / 0-)

    expectations bar was not a bar. It was an underground pipe.

  •  The media is always purposefully blacking out (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Agathena, galaxy33, JG in MD

    the discussion of cannabis reform.

    Like kissing McCains ass and gushing over Tundra Woman, blacking out the mainstream discourse in cannsbis reform is part of their big fat paycheck.

    Never ever ever breaking, except for stupid willfully ignorant people:

    LONDON (AFP) - Cannabis is less harmful than alcohol or tobacco, according to a report by a research charity Thursday, which called for a "serious rethink" of drug policy.

    The Beckley Foundation, a charity which numbers senior experts and other academics among its advisors, said banning cannabis has no impact on supply and turns users into criminals.

    Not breaking because this is the reality.

    Bedrock.

    Can't be explained away, omly can be lied and lied and lied about and blocked out of the US media. That report is from across the pond, where they still have public discourse despite their rabid reefer madness.

    Most journalists and media outlets in this country blow dirty goats.

  •  Senator O'Biden did great. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Agathena, bwintx, RantNRaven, Lopez99, JDog42

    Sarah used the word "also" so many times she would have flunked debate class.

  •  Education (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK, galaxy33

    I saw Biden think it but he didn't get a chance to say it. When Palin said that teachers will "get their reward in heaven," he wanted to say that they needed a reward now. Obama's education policy recognizes the importance of teacher pay in producing better teachers and students.

  •  Bensen-Quale debate not comparable. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Agathena, kengebreth, Lopez99

    People were looking for Benson to turn the Dukakis-Benson campaign around.  That is asking a lot more of the VP candidate than what Biden had to do.  Benson needed to reverse a losing momentum, all Biden had to do was reinforce a winning momentum.  He did what he needed to.  

    As an aside, Palin avoided making gaffs by repeating the talking points she had rehearsed enough to feel confident saying them rather than answering the question.  This does not work in reality.  A president cannot get away with responding to an international crisis by sending proposed tax cuts to Congress.  I find it amazing that the pundits simply ignore that what she was saying has no bearing on the question at all, they simply look at her response in a vacuum.  How many students get credit for answering exam questions with the answer to a different question that they happened to memorize?  And, what kind of grade do they get if they use the same answer for every question?

    eschew obfuscation

    by jimG on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:03:21 AM PDT

    •  actually (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      deboChicago

      People were looking for Benson to turn the Dukakis-Benson campaign around.

      Yes. That's why it's comparable.

      Palin;s own political future, otoh, is a side issue.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:11:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Jon Stewart compared it to gymnastics (0+ / 0-)

      one slip and you are out.

      Why are the media and the fundies allowing Palin so many mistakes and flops?

      This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

      by Agathena on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:58:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My mother's response - (6+ / 0-)

    She's a two-time Bush voter, a fundamentalist, and likes Obama but won't vote for him because he's not pro-life ...

    Her response after the debate was that she didn't really know Biden before, but that now she felt comfortable that he was a good man and likable.  She also said that Palin's voice, repetitive blather, and folksiness made my mom want to strangle her.  And of course, irony of ironies ... my mother (being a fundamentalist) is very skeptical of women in leadership positions.  The latter is a bad reason to dislike Palin, but it shows the tricky nature of trying to pander to a base that you don't fully understand.

    My mother ought to be the base, but for a variety of reasons, McCain and Palin completely alienate her.

    •  Same with mine, widow of a NY Policeman... (5+ / 0-)

      ...and WWII/Korea war veteran.

      She thinks McIAmBeowulf's brains are turning to mush (which she attributes to his time in captivity), and she loathes and resents the way he pulls out hiw POWness every time he slips up. She is no Obama lover to say the least (she can't get past his color) but she sees him as the only alternative to McPOW.

      Will the last one out of democracy please turn out the lights?

      by Apphouse50 on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:10:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hmmmm... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    govib, dkosdan, LynneK, galaxy33

    you said, "...and exposed Palin for the attractive, but callow, candidate she really is."  If you add 'shallow' to that, I think you will better sum up the totality of Palin.

    Actually, if I still lived in Alaska (yes, I did, for a few years), I would be seriously worried where she is concerned and question her qualifications to even continue as governor!

    Life is not a 'dress rehearsal'!

    by wgard on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:04:54 AM PDT

  •  Buchanan was appalled when she was chosen... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sapper, bwintx, dkosdan, galaxy33

    ...and then the phone calls in the middle of the night came, the not-so-silent screams, the "you'll never eat lunch in this town again" calls, and he came around.

    He knows she's a loser, and he knows she was mouthing canned speeches last night, filibustering, with no "off" switch to flick before she exhausted every talking point programmed into her this past week or so.

    But he wants to do lunch, and can't risk losing his entree into the best seats in the restaurants.

    Will the last one out of democracy please turn out the lights?

    by Apphouse50 on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:07:59 AM PDT

  •  Kossacks JOIN Club Five > 10/31 - 11/04 (0+ / 0-)

    Kossacks join CLUB FIVE at your local Democratic Headquarters.

    Club Five? What's dat? Well - it is a concentrated effort to Reach-In (not out anymore) to the most loyal and capable of Democrat Volunteers to target 10/31 - 11/04 - the last five days to the election. LAST 120 HOURS!

    Club Five - Can you give all or some of the last five days?

    The concept is a Reach-In and it works. Reminding Democrats that the last five days coming up are the most important in their life - well it just has a way of getting them to help out = join Club Five and put in the time 10/31 - 11/04.

    Kossacks if you can it will make all the difference. Join Club Five 2day!

    OAKLAND DEMOCRATIC HEADQUARTERS has a Club Five Reach-In (not "out" anymore) - does yours?

    Get you local HDQTRS to do the same. Put out Posters and Sign-up sheets. Address it when your get to speak in public.

    It works - we are getting a TON of interest in Club Five.

    Many Voluteers if asked can take off from work 10/31 - 11/04 straight through. I asked my employer and they were thrilled to let me off.

    JOIN CLUB FIVE
    START CLUB FIVE
    BE CLUB FIVE

    Join or start a Club Five at your headquarters as well.

    Oh and we are having a HUGE Halloween Party at Headquarters to kick it off. (after we do our volunteer work till 9pm. We think we may well have over a thousand attend!

    Then we intend to go to the biggest and best parties throughout Oakland (we are already being invited to many) and all go out IN COSTUME to the largest Halloween City-Wide Parties and work for all of our Democrats and Dem positions on all the CA State and Oakland Local Props.

    R U having a Halloween Party at your Headquarters?
    Try It! It will build a HUGE Volunteer effort starting Saturday morning 11/1 - I Guarantee!

    ObamaNation 2009!..... Rebecca > www.Kaplan4Oakland.org (4 coveted City-At-Large Council Seat)..... Gavin Newsom Governor California 2010......

    by AustinSF on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:10:02 AM PDT

  •  That wink we saw (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Agathena, govib

    was the "That's all folks!" of the McCain-Palin ticket.

    "Half of the American people never read a newspaper. Half never vote for President. One hopes it is the same half." - Gore Vidal

    by sapper on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:10:37 AM PDT

  •  I would like to hear the media (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sapper, KeepingItBlueKrstna

    or even our candidates call Palin and McCain on cutting taxes, mostly for the rich. They need to remind them of the deficit that needs to be paid.  

    Main Street hates that deficit.

  •  Oh and one other point! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sapper, RantNRaven

    I hate being called "Joe Sixpack" I'm too old to have those sixpack abs anymore and too mature for simple PBR, I only drink Jack Daniels.

    Words escape me, but deeds are always noticed

    by utopia on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:11:18 AM PDT

    •  I DRINK GIN, SARAH (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      utopia

      Cheap Gin, too. Gordon's, $12.75 for 1.75 liter.

      "Half of the American people never read a newspaper. Half never vote for President. One hopes it is the same half." - Gore Vidal

      by sapper on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:14:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Gahh (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sapper

        I am a gin freak too, but I can't handle anything cheaper than Beefeater.

        I got this fantastic bottle of jenever when my friend went to Amsterdam...I'm saving it for Election Night :)

        "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington."--Alice's Restaurant

        by ekthesy on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:25:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Don't get me started (6+ / 0-)

    I, for one, did not appreciate being talked down to like a third grader by a Barbie Doll VP pick who less than a week ago could not name a single information source which informs her Maverickyness. The winks , the "ya knows", EYERAN, NEWKUHLER, c'mon lady we don't need W in drag. She didn't fuck up too bad, except for the outright lies, but her whole attitude that we were somehow simpletons for not being wowed by her perkiness and Obi Wan McCain's mystical heroism is ridiculous. Biden was outstanding. The Hockey mom...not so good I hear.

  •  Biden talks tragedy; Palin is unresponsive (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ekthesy, Sagittarius, LynneK, galaxy33

    Biden almost breaks down remembering the death of his wife and baby daughter and his critically injured sons. Palin ignores what he just said and continues her talking points like a robot. This from a woman who uses her family as a qualification for VP. Her mother act just goes up in smoke here.

    From the transcript:

    BIDEN: [...]
    Look, I understand what it's like to be a single parent. When my wife and daughter died and my two sons were gravely injured, I understand what it's like as a parent to wonder what it's like if your kid's going to make it.

    I understand what it's like to sit around the kitchen table with a father who says, "I've got to leave, champ, because there's no jobs here. I got to head down to Wilmington. And when we get enough money, honey, we'll bring you down."

    I understand what it's like. I'm much better off than almost all Americans now. I get a good salary with the United States Senate. I live in a beautiful house that's my total investment that I have. So I -- I am much better off now.

    But the notion that somehow, because I'm a man, I don't know what it's like to raise two kids alone, I don't know what it's like to have a child you're not sure is going to -- is going to make it -- I understand.

    I understand, as well as, with all due respect, the governor or anybody else, what it's like for those people sitting around that kitchen table. And guess what? They're looking for help. They're looking for help. They're not looking for more of the same.

    IFILL: Governor?

    PALIN: People aren't looking for more of the same. They are looking for change. And John McCain has been the consummate maverick in the Senate over all these years.

    He's taken shots left and right from the other party and from within his own party, because he's had to take on his own party when the time was right, when he recognized it was time to put partisanship aside and just do what was right for the American people. That's what I've done as governor, also, take on my own party, when I had to, and work with both sides of the aisle, in my cabinet, appointing those who would serve regardless of party, Democrats, independents, Republicans, whatever it took to get the job done.

    [blah, blah, blah, blah, blah]

    Change is coming. And John McCain is the leader of that reform.

    This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

    by Agathena on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:12:43 AM PDT

    •  Oof. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Agathena, LynneK, galaxy33

      I didn't quite get this the first time around--I was too busy trying to instantly figure out whether Joe getting emotional was good or bad (it was good) to listen to her response.

      But reading it now...wow.

      "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington."--Alice's Restaurant

      by ekthesy on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:26:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This was a job interview (5+ / 0-)

    not an election for homecoming Queen. If Hillary Clinton had tried to skate by with so little substance she would have been reviled by the press. Biden and Palin should be evaluated on the same standards: To do otherwise is sexist and, frankly, insulting to women (like me) who have to work hard to achieve parity with men in our professions. Palin's cutesy winks and aw-shucks expressions were more appropriate for someone applying for the job of airline stewardess than potential Leader of the Free World.

    •  It was about the job of VP but the Right made (0+ / 0-)

      it about her. So did the media beforehand by clamoring about expectations,  the set of the bar, how will Palin do? It was about the job.

      This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

      by Agathena on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 07:06:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ifill didn't do any probing... (0+ / 0-)

    ..she just let the responses stand, I thought.

    show goes on

    PBS journalist Gwen Ifill, moderator of the vice presidential debate, is wheeled into the Washington University debate site October 2, 2008 in St. Louis, MS

    Whatever the Repuglicans say, the truth is the opposite.

    by MariaWr on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:18:48 AM PDT

    •  Gwen Missed (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KeepingItBlueKrstna

      the opportunity to ask Sarah if she thought that Adam and Eve rode their dinos in Teh Garden Of Eden with English saddles, or Western saddles.

      Why is Gwen making the Baby Jesus cry?

      "There is little separating those that see cells as tiny machines from those that see the Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich". H. Humbert 2/6/08

      by JDog42 on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:41:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think the media is missing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    a repudiation of the idea that most Americans want to elect somebody "just like me."  Maybe it's the impact of 8 years under somebody "just like me" (only way dumber), but Americans seem to be a lot more wary of "just folks" appeals.  

    I hope that with the election of Barack Obama we'll see the waning of the creepy anti-intellectualism that has infected our culture for so many years.

    (Not meaning to be complacent and suggest we don't still have a lot of work to do.  Nothing's certain.  But certainly last night was no game-changer, and I've been exhilarated by the poll numbers lately.)

    P.S.  Joe Biden RULES!

    •  I, personally, am NOT a "folk" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KeepingItBlueKrstna

      After W lost his first election to a folksy down-homer who ran against Bush's effete Ivy Leagueness, he vowed to "never get out-Texan'd again." The net consequence is that even Barack Obama thinks I am a "folk." Bad news, guys....

      "An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide." - Arnold Toynbee

      by David Mason on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:36:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am getting sick and tired of the idea that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dmb0857

        the leader of our country needs to be "an regular guy". I want the leader of my country to be smarter than me! I want a leader who can see things coming and try to stop them, or, at the very least, lessen the impact. I want a leader who isn't afraid to get his/her hands dirty when he/she needs to. I want a leader who takes the time to look at all sides of an issue and actually think before he/she acts. There is only one ticket that provides all of the things I am looking for, and that is the Obama/Biden ticket.

        "Truth never damages a cause that is just."~~~Mohandas K. Gandhi -9.38/-6.26

        by LynneK on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 08:53:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  TODAYS RASMUSSEN O 49 M43 (0+ / 0-)
    •  says (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LynneK

      with leaners 51-44 in the premium section.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:37:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  more (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LynneK

      The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Friday again shows Barack Obama attracting 51% of the vote while John McCain earns 44%. For each of the past eight days, Obama has been at 50% or 51% and McCain has been at 44% or 45% (see trends). New polling shows Obama pulling away in New Hampshire and opening a growing lead in the Electoral College projections

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by Greg Dworkin on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:38:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think the media is missing how (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK, galaxy33

    canned and robotic she came across on TV. She sounded so rehersed and incoherent that it was hard to believe she was actually connected to what she was saying.  Like Shieffer said, she looked confident, but she lacked coherence. These are not the same things.  

    •  Confident ignorance is still ignorance (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      galaxy33

      How anyone can say that Palin did well is beyond belief. This was a debate, not a "talking points memo". In a debate, you don't pick and choose which questions you will deign to answer.

      "Truth never damages a cause that is just."~~~Mohandas K. Gandhi -9.38/-6.26

      by LynneK on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 08:47:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Patty Cakes (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    "Social conservatives and wingers like Pat Buchanan may love her, but who cares?"

    indeed!  I could almost see the pool of drool forming on his fangs when he said how wonderful Sarah Goobercuda did...gross!  stupid, racist, dirty old man

    and Rube-y was just as bad.  You just KNOW he wishes he could make the star of "Hee Haw: Alaska" his FOURTH wife!

    puke, retch, spit

  •  Writers know (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK, KeepingItBlueKrstna

    never to use the word you're trying to convey.  It's a killer.  For example, in advertising, if you want to say something's cool, never say the word "cool".  In TV if you want to convey that something's funny, be funny, don't say the word "funny".  And in politics, if you're gonna come off as a maverick, please dear jesus, don't say "I'm a maverick".  La-hoo-za-hers!

    "One of the hardest parts of my job is to try to connect Iraq to the war on terror." -- George Bush 9/6/06

    by vandrop on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:28:50 AM PDT

  •  Biden made only one major slip (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    substituting "Lebanon" for "Syria" when talking about Hezbollah. There were more minor inaccuracies that you can find at FactCheck.org.

    Palin on the other hand kept repeating false claims that had been publicly debunked. She made 12 major slips.

    Worst of all was her non-response to Biden after he talked about the great tragedy of his life.

    This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

    by Agathena on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:30:15 AM PDT

  •  What is the Media not picking up on? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Agathena, galaxy33, deboChicago

    Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a report earlier this week say PAlin's net worth was 1.5 Mil?
    Folks- thats not working class.  Biden's mention of his father sitting at the table saying he was going to leave town to find work- thats working class, thank you very much.
    Joe Biden is grateful for his job and income and proud of his ONE "beautiful house"- his sole investment.  He showed gratitude that he has a job with a good income.

    I'm tired of the "elitist" smear.  Neither Biden nor Obama come from wealthy families- both worked hard to get to wear they did and put in their time, paid thier dues.  McCain has had a huge boost because of family connections (which always pissed me off about Bush) and Palin has not put in her political time. Obama worked hard and went  to Harvard  Law school on scholarships and massive student loans- Palin spent six years going to five, six? collages getting an undergraduate degree in journalism?   That makes her better somehow?  This is a complicated world now- we have got to get away from this dumbing-down is good attitude in this country.

    Health care- both Biden and Obama have had the awful experience of losing a loved one in a tragic way and spending those awful hours in a hospital.  They get what is wrong with health care in this country.  McCain and Palin may have also have had these experiences- I really don't see how they could be adults and not have gone through this, but from their demeanor you don't get that.  I don't feel that either of these people have spent long hours sitting by someones bedside and worrying.

    "Folksy" I am so sick of "folks" and "folksy" I could just scream! (and I study folklore)  It may be "elitist" of me, but I cringe at the thought of the United States of America being represented on the World Stage by Joe six-pack.  The Little house on the Prairie days are over- we need to be competitive in science, engineering, technology, and McCain can't use a computer?  We have horrifically dangerous situations involving the possible use of Nuclear weapons and we need people who can at least pronounce the word "Nuclear"  We need people who understand the  history and cultures of these countries whose citizens-Hello? don't play hockey.

    •  She has 3 homes, 2 recreational (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      galaxy33

      and one by the dead Lake Lucille in Wasilla, then there's the governor's  mansion.

      Don't forget she charges per diem to stay in her own home, that's not folksy.

      This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

      by Agathena on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 07:11:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Taking away the drama of a dogfight = less rating (0+ / 0-)

    It's as simple as that, and if the media can use any narrative to keep the concept of a dogfight alive - even if it means opining that Palin did well by virtue of not not vomiting and frothing at the mouth on stage - then that's what they'll do.

    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty ::Thomas Jefferson::

    by Jeremy10036 on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:32:31 AM PDT

  •  Re: Michigan (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    McSnarly isn't completely pulling out of Michigan.  The RNC will continue operations there, meaning commercials, at least.  I suspect that will be ground zero for the new and improved scorched-earth bark off the tree slime-smear campaign.  Maybe they announced they're leaving in order to create some sort of plausible deniability.

    As usual, though, it backfired.  The take on Michigan interruptus on CNN last night was that it signaled surrender.

  •  I just love some Joe Biden (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    Seriously.  I liked him before ... certainly ... but after that flawless debate and his personal story, I just think he's a wonderful asset to this ticket.  And a great person.

    I'm mad that the media is gonna spend all day today talking about Palin.  Joe Biden gave one of the best debate performances I ever saw (and I HATE debates).  His performance was actually better than Obama's (which was also great) but Joe had #s, dates, times, people ... FACTS ... at the tip of his finger tips.  He was quoting facts like he was breathing.  LOL.
     
    And Palin, nervous as hell, read from a stack of note cards filled with talking points (when she wasn't ignoring questions entirely) and she gets all of the media attention.  It doesn't seem fair.
     
    Obama / O'Biden 2008  (snicker)
     

  •  Palin and Intellectual Property (0+ / 0-)

    We all know that the McCain campaign has problems respecting intellectual property rights.  After all, rock musicians whose music is used without permission are just dirty pot-smoking hippies, so who needs to respect their intellectual property.

    But I was watching the CSPAN replay of the debate and it struck me that what McCain/Palin is offering is Politician BarbieTM.  Aren't they going to get into trouble with Mattel, which is after all a fine upstanding capitalist corporation?

  •  I've only been at this, like 5 weeks (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK, kinva
    A noun, a verb, and did I tell you that I'm the governor of Alaska?

    "Our particular principles of religion are a subject of accountability to God alone. I inquire after no man's, and trouble none with mine." --Thomas Jefferson

    by glb3 on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:35:22 AM PDT

  •  Biden was Great (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    I thought Biden was great. He kept the focus on McCain and tethered him to Bush effectively. When he called the McCain health care plan "the ultimate bridge to nowhere", the entire room full of people at our debate party burst out laughing. When he choked up talking about his life's tragedy, he seemed genuine and real. Compared to the programmed, phony, Palin performance it was no contest. Good job Joe!

    •  He kept it about McCain (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LynneK

      some wise person (can't remember the name) said at the outset that if this election is kept 'about McCain' Obama would win. Seems to be working.

      So I was elated when Biden kept hammering McCain.

      This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

      by Agathena on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 07:16:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Redistribution of Wealth - already happened (0+ / 0-)

    Biden was strong...but I wish he had responded to Plain's "accusation" of redistribution of wealth with these numbers (numbers we should all know by heart and use...the redistribution has already happened - from the middle to the wealthy):

    this is from V. Senator Sanders website

    Easy Street -- 10/02/2008

    While the middle class has declined under President Bush's reckless economic policies, the people on top have never had it so good. For the first seven years of Bush's tenure, the wealthiest 400 individuals in our country saw a $670 billion increase in their wealth, and at the end of 2007 owned over $1.5 trillion in wealth. We have the most unequal distribution of income and wealth of any major country on earth, with the top 1 percent earning more income than the bottom 50 percent.  There has been a massive  transfer of wealth from the middle class to the very wealthiest people in this country, when, among others, CEOs of Wall Street firms received unbelievable amounts in bonuses, including $39 billion in bonuses in the year 2007 alone for just the five major investment houses.

    ""Maybe I am the only person in America who thinks so, but I have a hard time understanding why we are giving $700 billion to the secretary of the Treasury, who is the former C.E.O. of Goldman Sachs, which, along with other financial institutions, actually got us into this problem," Sanders said. "Maybe I am the only person in America who thinks that is a little bit weird, but that is what I think."

    "Most of my constituents did not earn a $38 million bonus in 2005 or make over $100 million in total compensation in three years, as did Henry Paulson, the current secretary of the Treasury, and former CEO of Goldman Sachs," Senator Bernie Sanders said moments before the Senate voted Wednesday for a $700 billion Wall Street bailout.

    "Most of my constituents did not make $354 million in total compensation over the past five years as did Richard Fuld of Lehman Brothers," Sanders added. "Most of my constituents did not cash out $60 million in stock after a $29 billion bailout for Bear Stearns after that failing company was bought out by J.P. Morgan Chase. Most of my constituents did not get a $161 million severance package as E. Stanley O'Neill, former CEO Merrill Lynch did."

    Sanders argued that those who caused the problems in our economy should pay for the solution.  "If we are going to bail out Wall Street, it should be those people who have caused the problem, those people who have benefited from Bush's tax breaks for millionaires and billionaires, those people who have taken advantage of deregulation, those people are the people who should pick up the tab, and not ordinary working people," the senator had argued.

    He offered an amendment that would have taxed the very wealthy to pay for the bailout.  It lost on a voice vote.

    So Sanders voted against the bailout bill, which nevertheless passed by a lopsided majority in the Senate.  The plan reportedly is gaining ground in the House, which could take it up on Friday

  •  I Agree With You Completely (0+ / 0-)

    About halfway  through the debate last night, I realized that I even liked Palin.  But no way in Hell would I ever even entertain the thought of voting for her, or any ticket with her on it.  

    "At least the war on the environment is going well."

    by RenMin on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:38:44 AM PDT

  •  As if there wasn't enough to be bothered by (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sagittarius, LynneK, RenMin

    Near the end, Gov. Palin (R-Alaska. You know, where they produce energy in Alaska, where I'm from Alaska, where everyone is just like you, and they all love me cause they are in Alaska and I'm from Alaska and that's how we do it in Alaska. ALASKA!) railed against the media bias or media filter, whatever she chose to call it.

    If you'll pardon the crass response, a little paraphrasing from Cris Rock came to mind.

    "Why must you be like that? Its not us, its the media. The media has distorted our image. Its not us, its the media. Please cut the fucking shit. When I'm standing at the ATM at night, I'm not looking over my shoulder for the media. Oh shit, Mike Wallace, run! I don't have three guns in my house because the media is outside. Ted Koppel ain't took shit from me."

    Not only did this come off as unprofessional, but it showed her incredibly thin skin. When you're a candidate for any public office, and most especially for President, the media's job is to tear you and your life apart. Maybe the Moosejaw Monitor didn't feel the need to pry in to every single one of Palin's claims but, to the contrary of what the Governor said, the rest of the U.S. is NOT Alaska. We want to know. We want to pry. Most importantly, we want to know how you're going to handle the modest pressure applied by the press.

    Further, her folksy little drawl was more insulting than genuine. This comes from someone who should be in her core demographic. I've got the wife, the house, the kids, the dogs, and I live in Texas. I'm not going to claim to be the perfect template of middle America, but I've lived in the South nearly all my life. I've shelled peas on the front porch of my grandma's house, and sat and listened while old farmers told the same war stories over their morning coffee and donuts. I've lived Middle America. I've breathed Middle America. I've seen the pain and felt the joy, so I know what Middle America feels when you try to pretend you're one of us with a hokey accent and dead as dirt anecdotes.

    I'll end with a quote from my father.

    "To win an election, you have to have a broad appeal. This broad ain't appealing."

  •  This is the Time to Marginalize the Echo Chamber (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    I don't think she did anything to reassure the thinking conservatives (not an oxymoron--there are some) in the party, but they have an obligation here to speak up and help marginalize the echo chamber a bit. Bill Kristol was ecstatic about her performance. Why is he still considered a conservative intellectual?  Just because his parents were? Is intellectualism an automatic genetic heritage? He is an embarrassment to the right, having been wrong on pretty much everything he ever supported. It's time for the true conservatives and the   patriots in the party who are worried about this country to get off the fence. They have passively tolerated talk radio and idiotic punditry because it ultimately helped them achieve some goals. The result is a rabid, but woefully ill-informed populace who treat rightwing ideology like a religion they are willing to kill or die for. They have also managed to cut off their noses to spite their faces. By not nipping this in the bud early on, they are in large part responsible for the rise of anti-intellectualism and the marginalization of their own influence in the party. If they care about this country, they have an obligation to try now to turn the tables and marginalize the vile and ridiculous rantings of the Rush Limbaugh's, Michelle Malkins and Glenn Becks of the world.  

  •  The Dark Horse Won! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sagittarius, zizi

    More than once I've read that the ultimate "winner" of a debate is not the one who knows all the facts, and answers all the questions, the winner is the candidate that manages to create an emotional connection with the viewer.  Fair or not, at the end of the day, most of the facts and details will be forgotten.  The emotional impressions, however, will not.

    Palin & Co. no doubt knew this, hence her 'in your face' gosh darn 'folksy'ness, her winking and grinning at the camera and constantly talking about her family and Alaska. She used it as a prop when she felt cornered, couldn't remember her notes, needed a 'filler'.  What she did not do, however, is debate.  She recited.  She used cheat sheets.  She performed.  She also attempted to impress by letting it be known, right from the start, that she was calling the shots, not the moderator, and would only answer Gwen Ifill's questions if and when she felt like it.  (I guess Team Palin thought this would make her look 'up for the job', not realizing school yard bullies no longer impress).

    Fortunately for us, she and her advisers were not savvy enough to appreciate the human's inate ability to subconsciously tell the difference between authenticity, and a sham.  She and her advisers failed to sense the pulse of the (majority of the) electorate.  After 8 years of Joe Six Pack leadership, it has now become buyer beware.  The polls in both debates clearly demonstrate, perhaps more than by any other yardstick, that the electorate can no longer be played as fools.  We're onto them.  

    Back to emotions.  Without a doubt, the candidate who connected with us was Joe Biden.  We all felt his pain when he spoke of the loss of his wife and child.  In response, all Palin could do was brush it off.  At that moment the "real Palin" let down her guard and showed us her true colors.

    Joe was miles above the phony bit part actor from "North to Alaska".  He connected with all of us.  We instinctively knew he was the real deal.  If that wasn't good enough, he also effortlessly demonstrated his knowledgeable, honesty, integrity and strength of character.  He showed us how Presidential he is.  With Obama/Biden there is more than just hope.  There is also trust and most importantly, they make us feel safe.

    Joe Biden turned out to be the Dark Horse of the debate.  The folksy barbie doll, nah, not so much.

  •  BBC has a piece on McCain's exit from Michigan (0+ / 0-)
  •  you think i can't read, liz lemon? (0+ / 0-)

    you think i'm illiterate?   of course i can read!  i even have a column in ebony called 'myuuu-zzzinggs'.  [musings].

  •  Palin on Gay Rights is gonna PO conservatives (0+ / 0-)
  •  One new debate rule (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK, Randtntx

    Answer the question that is asked of you or the mic will be shut off after 15 seconds of non related banter.

  •  No Country for Old Men - Obama/Biden '08 (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    I think one of the reasons her little jabs and cutting remarks don't come off better is because she says shitty things and then denies that she means it.
    Whereas, let's say Reagan's comment, included the audience in on the joke and then they all laughed together. He meant it but his humor made it palatable.
    Her comments  just remind me of the mean backstabbing woman you work with.

  •  But did she "comprehend"... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DemFromCT, LynneK

    ... 3 issues I wish I was hearing on MSM - (1) SP's VP expanded powers response looked to me that she really didn't know what was being talked about -- like the Bush doctrine question from before.  Yes, she memorized the words of what the VP duties are, but didn't seem to me she really comprehended the meaning of the question. (2)  I wonder whether she really knew what was meant by achilles heel versus making a mistake or whether she doesn't want to own up to any form of weakness. (3) Her socially inappropriate (or lack of) response to Biden's pain --- didn't even acknowledge it; ignored it --- showed a very narrow self-absorbed moment.  Goes to knowledge and character to me.

  •  Smirking Incompetent (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    Sound familiar?  

    Very interesting to read the reactions. The hard left is reading a lot into things the rest of the population probably won't care about and the hard right is so completely out of touch it is incredible. Most of them believe, despite all polls to the contrary, that Palin "wiped the floor" with Biden.  She was "fresh, warm, funny." I must have seen a different debate.  She is engaging and you want to like her, but I was really put off by the self-satisfied smirk that remained on her face almost the entire evening.

    My mom, who is a major fundie, doesn't follow politics much (and thankfully doesn't vote because she only supports the Kingdom of God and not the rulers of man--yeah that fundy).  I asked her what she thought of Palin after the Couric interview. She must be one of two people who never saw any clips of it, so her only sense is that people were trying to make Palin look dumb for believing in the Bible and she got on the Christian persecution thing. I told her that that particular topic had never even come up and that people were actually concerned about the fact that Palin appears to be an airhead. To stress the point, I used the example of my mother's very sweet, but tragically shallow and anti-intellectual sister-in-law, my aunt Jan. That did the trick, my mother totally understood the problem.  I think now, though, that I did a horrible disservice to aunt Jan. She may have trouble putting coherent thoughts together, but she does not have a mean bone in her body.  I think Sarah Palin is mean and it escapes in her constant arrogant smirk.  We already had a smirking incompetent in the WH and that hasn't worked out so well. We certainly don't need another.

    •  McCain (0+ / 0-)

      McCain did her no favors and did his ticket no favors by picking her.  If he had personnel sense, he would have designated her as his Energy Secretary and picked Romney.  Not good work by a retired Navy Captain who should have made these kinds of calls starting in that career.  

  •  here are a few points from Red States Blues (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK, Randtntx
    1) Gov Palin made it clear that she was there to talk the talking points and nothing more. If she didn't like a question she wasn't going to answer it. That is more of the same and needs to be pointed out.

    2) she proved how dangerious she will be because of the comment made about exstending the powers of the VP.

    3) Joe should have lit her up when she said "Oh shows that I am a washington outsider" I know I would lit her up for it. with the lobbiest and such. Lit her up

    4) I can spit out talking points, so can joe six pack we need leaders not followers.

    "we think about it, we talk about, we dream about, all the time because we are afraid that the world will implode on it's on evil nature otherwise"

    by red states blues on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 07:31:06 AM PDT

  •  BOY...................... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    I don't know about ya'll, but that bitch was soooooooo antagonistic that I don't think I could have kept from blowin' up!!  I was unable to watch but about 20 minutes.

  •  With you on all bullet points.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    punditocracy is nothing more than a collective circle jerk.

    I would say though, that I think Indies had a far HIGHER expectation from the Snarly Stewardess after her pathetic Couric interview, and she failed big time. Not answering questions, not giving convincing arguments, showing robotic emotions, and trying to sell VP by cheat sheet didn't fly.

  •  Palin (0+ / 0-)
    She will bring Conservatives to the polls who sat out 2006.  She is a great natural politician, if not a great thinker or leader.  This could change some House races.

    Should Sen. Obama offer her Energy secretary to take her off the national stage and make her suspect to her base?

    •  makes sense to me.n/t (0+ / 0-)
    •  Why not find (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LynneK

      someone qualified for that position?  When McCain tells me she knows more about energy than anybody in America, I know it's not the truth.  Send Palin off to oblivion.  As someone posted, in two years she'll be fighting for her live in a re-election campaign (or impeached before that for Trooper-gate).

      "One of the hardest parts of my job is to try to connect Iraq to the war on terror." -- George Bush 9/6/06

      by vandrop on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 07:57:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  grocery store checkout (0+ / 0-)

        Actually I believe we'll be seeing her and many from her family on the front pages of the supermarket tabloids for several months or years past the election.  Stories like, "Palin's daughter seeking divorce from baby Daddy - abuse allegations surface..." stuff like that.

        •  I'm betting the wedding will NOT happen... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          galaxy33

          A wedding might sound like a news cycle item to Republican pundits, but in the real world the extra pressure on a teenage boy to marry someone just doesn't help as much as it might have in the 1950's (the mythical 50's that Republicans like to pretend existed)...

          Levi is going to run for the hills and nobody is going to blame him. BUT, I also predict he will probably be a moderately active father to the child, just not married.

          Thats a pretty common pattern in the 21st century (so far), but for the Republican base of cranky 70 year old white pundits, I'm not sure if they will "get it".

          •  completely agree (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            galaxy33

            If they were so set on getting married already they would be married.  If he was wanting to "make an honest woman of her" they would already be married.  If he wanted to be a father to this baby and the first one, they would already be married.  They will never get married.  I have to see my bookie on these odds.  

  •  Great reader post at Yglesias site: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LynneK

    In some ways, the fact that she didn’t lapse into the drivel-mode that Katie Couric teased out of her actually makes Biden’s win more devastating. It became clear that Biden wasn’t winning because he was debating a lightweight, but because he was debating with better arguments

  •  Think like Rove... (0+ / 0-)

    ...or, WWKD, what would Karl do.  For either the presidential or VP debate it is unnecessary to try to determine who won.  Rove was successful, apparently, in 00' and 04' in targeting a very small slice of the electorate.  Focusing here on that small slice that is still undecided I believe that Obama and Biden have both hit tape measure home runs in the debates.  Many have speculated that Palin actually RAISED the bar by doing so poorly in her CBS interviews.  She now needs to not just survive but to show some real depth.  She did not achieve that.  

  •  it's beyond whether palin's ready to be president (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    witkacy

    which she is most certainly not.

    it's the fact that someone like her,  someone so blatantly unqualified, someone with a potentially lethal combination of megalomania and inexperience, would be tolerated and allowed by our legal system to perpetrate a dangerous charade of this proportion. this isn't a burgeoning cult, it's the fucking united states of america.

    john mccain should not have been ALLOWED to choose her. the fact that he did should have tripped a mechanism in our legal system to eliminate him as a candidate for the highest office in our nation. his choice should have disqualified him immediately.

    one reason our founding fathers created the electoral college was to provide a buffer between the "passions" of the general public and the selection of the president. mccain has bypassed this constitutional safeguard and shoved an unqualified, under-educated, and undeservedly power-hungry novice up our noses in an act of personal spite. this is the most egregious, flagrant abuse of power we've witnessed since bush stole the election from gore, and since the bush administration lied their way into the war with iraq.

    this era of regarding our democracy as a mockery must end, and only we can end it.

    and, by the way, at this point in our history, i believe the electoral college is no longer necessary and has actually become an unconstitutional practice, given the evolution of our nation's population and geography. i'm all for dumping it and switching to the popular vote. but that's not the point i'm making here.

  •  It ain't about Biden. (0+ / 0-)
    He's chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He could be president, God forbid that the opportunity arises.

    It's all about Palin.
    Is she presidential timber?
    How reckless was McCain in picking her?

    "I'm not opposed to all wars; I'm opposed to dumb wars." -- Obama in 2002

    by Frank Palmer on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 08:59:16 AM PDT

  •  Gwen Ifill was NOT very good... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    galaxy33

    She was slightly better than her LAST moderating of Cheney and Edwards, but was STILL crappy.

    Can we drop her from the next round of debates next election? Many of her questions were NOT straight forward but had a twist to them reflecting some ideas of what she thought the answer should be.

  •  Gee whiz, by golly.... (0+ / 0-)

    (insert double Patriotic fist swing here), can someone please teach that woman english?  Can she (Please, please) promise to give up the beauty pagent schtick before she takes over as supreme commander of the Senate?

  •  i'm on the buchanan site... (0+ / 0-)

    ...more than almost anyone on this site--and you can easily see that they are also deeply divided about palin.

    "...this election has never been about me. it's about you."--barack obama

    by fake consultant on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 09:46:47 AM PDT

  •  Palin is the GOP's Stepford Candidate (0+ / 0-)

    Sarah Palin showed that as the Stepford Candidate she can memorize facts and lines, throw in some "folksy" gestures (a big turn off for me, it was like she was at a high-school rally) but SHE CANNOT TRULY DEBATE THE ISSUES. In fact she cannot (or would not) answer straight questions in a straightforward manner. I too am ticked off that Gwen Ifill did not challenge her to really answer the questions. All she could talk about was her Alaska-energy-maverick-soccer mom-you betcha mantra.

    She did exceed the (much, much lowered expectations), but how could she not, after those horrendous Couric interviews. Think about how high the bar would have been for Hillary if she had been tapped as VP. This is another example of the dumbing down of America, and it is so scary that it has reached this level of candidacy. Oh wait, it already occured with Bush - look where it has taken us now in the last 8 years.

    Did you catch her references to expanding the VPOTUS's powers to the legislature (the VP is the tie-breaker in a vote, nothing else) and wants to be Darth Cheney in lipstick (a very mean pitbull indeed).

    Before the debate, CBS News aired the list of questions Katie Couric asked both Biden & Palin in interviews. One of them was about what comes to mind about the Dick Cheney as VP. Biden cited several instances of trampling on the Constitution by Cheney. Palin brought up Cheney's hunting accident when he shot that guy by mistake. Is this the type of focus we want from someone literally a "heartbeat from the presidency"?

    Sarah Palin is not ready for to be VP for a healthy POTUS candidate, much less a 72-year old 4 time cancer patient with a short temper and erratic decision-making.

    Everyone, watch the movie "The Idiocracy" - although very funny, but very scary in that our society could be moving towards that direction. In the movie it takes 500 years - but it seems much quicker to me.

  •  Sarah Palin Debate Flowchart (0+ / 0-)

    Not sure if this has been circulated yet here, but... I think it does a pretty gosh darn good job, dontcha think there now?!

  •  Bambi goes to Washington (0+ / 0-)

    Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

  •  I was horrified (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    galaxy33

    I can't believe she said, "Well Joe, I know yer wife knows that having been a teacher for 30 years. Bless her heart, her reward is in Heaven!"  Yikes!

    1. He has one wife in Heaven already.

    2)I'm sure all of the underpaid, underappreicated and underfunded teachers are comforted to know that they just have to be patient, their reward is in heaven?????????

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