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I am an active Mormon not living in California and this is my first post on DailyKos.

As I am writing this, none of us really knows whether Prop 8 will pass or fail tonight in California.  As the majority of the attention on the major national news networks (and the blogs) will be focused on the intensely exciting Presidential race, as well as the Senate and House results, I do not anticipate knowing the result of Prop 8 until early in the morning or sometime on Nov. 5.  But I know how this ends....

...it ends in tears.  Whether Prop 8 passes or not, for me, the damage has already been done.  So as presumptuous as it may sound, this is my very public apology, on behalf of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for whatever pain has been caused by the Yes on 8 campaign, particularly by the Church's involvement in it.  

When my more liberal Mormon friends and I gather in dark corners to discuss politics, the subject often turns to how much we feel like we occupy a perpetual no-man's land.  Other Mormons don't trust us because we aren't good, conforming red-state Utahns like they are.  Other liberals don't like us because we have certain religious views and participate actively (including donating money) to an organization that seems so bent on political conservatism.

The disaster that has become Prop 8 and the Yes on 8 campaign has only exacerbated the issue.  While it may not get as much attention in the media, from anecdotal reports and personal experiences, the Yes on 8 campaign is ripping apart the fabric of Mormonism in California and elsewhere.  Longtime members are resigning in protest, families are divided, and yet other members have stopped attending weekly meetings for fear of being offending by the anti-gay marriage rhetoric.  

For my own part, not even living in California, I don't know if a gay person will ever trust me again when they find out I am Mormon, knowing the damage that was done to their rights in my name, and I weep for the theft of these friendships.  Furthermore, my relationship with the Church has likely been irreparably damaged by its determined involvement in Yes on 8.  Never once has the Church asked me to become so personally and financially involved in efforts to feed the hungry, tend the sick, clothe the naked, and shelter the homeless.  But when two people of the same sex love each other, want to share their lives and get married, then of course my wallet must be pried open.  

More painful still than this symbolic slight has been the damage to personal relationships, even those eternal marriages that Mormons hold so dear.  I am sure it is a pain that is reproduced silently in hundreds and thousands of LDS homes across the country.  When I hear my friends, neighbors, relatives, and even my own spouse, speak in a derogatory and discriminatory fashion about homosexuals, I feel as if my "home" has been ripped out from under me. It is a tragedy to feel like a stranger in your own home and marriage, but it is more tragic still to know that the future of these relationships depends on your keeping quiet about your support for gay marriage.

So this is my clumsy and inarticulate apology for Yes on 8.  Within the Church, there are those of us who are still carrying the torch for our gay and lesbian friends.  For you progressives and liberals out there reading DailyKos, "pray" for us.

Originally posted to mormonvsprop8 on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:07 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  sorry to preempt your tip jar (55+ / 0-)

    but--thank you for this.  Yes--it's unfortunately the case that many gay people will view you with distrust.  Thankfully, it's very easy for you to tell them how you feel.

    No group of people is monolithic.  Your theological views have no bearing on your views regarding legal, state-given rights.

    Thank you again for your post.

    oops. I hope the gate wasn't too expensive.

    My blog. Come visit.

    by Dante Atkins on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:11:03 PM PST

    •  I guess my question would be (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ogre, NotFuzzy, fritzrth, snoopydawg, maxzj05

      Have you had the conviction to stand up and tell people how you feel at church? Last Sunday, being the first Sunday of the month, was Fast and Testimony meeting for Mormons, and in their main service, they dedicate about 45 minutes of their meeting time to allow members to address the congregation and share their thoughts and emotions. I'm curious if there are Mormons out there who have the strength to take the pulpit and speak out for love instead of hate and bigotry. I'm also curious about what disciplinary action, if any, they'd face if they did speak out.

  •  Thanks for that (12+ / 0-)

    It is sometimes hard to remember that there are good and decent, smart and articulate folks among groups we tend to lump together as having "intolerant" and maybe even "insane" views on equality.

    I try every day to remember that there are good and smart Republicans out there too.  But when their spokespeople blather and spew lies all day, every day, it is difficult to remember!

    Need something new here...
    This Space for Rent! (Keith? Your name could be here!)
    (-4.88, -4.15)

    by DrSpalding on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:13:22 PM PST

  •  Then why are you Mormon? (6+ / 0-)

    What the Mormon Church has done is immoral, unethical and disgusting.

    If you remain a part of the Church, you are condoning what they have done, your apology notwithstanding.

    If thousands of Mormons stood up and resigned from the Church, perhaps they'd get the message.

  •  It is indeed a tough position you are in. (20+ / 0-)

    I feel for you in your marriage as deeply as I feel for you in your Church. You may come to a point of soul-searching where you decide that one or both of those are no longer right for you.  

    I would say particularly that your money can be given directly to those caring for the hungry, the sick, and the homeless, and does not need to be filtered through your Church. I come from a long line of Mormons and while I love my family, I reject the Church- those men do not speak for me.

    Thank you for writing this lovely piece, and remember, you are one human being, you are not your Church.

    "These are not the remarks that were sent to my plane this morning."

    by kate mckinnon on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:13:50 PM PST

  •  There was a time when I left the Mormon church (23+ / 0-)

    that I despised those that still attended because back then African Americans could not hold the priesthood. There has been progress in many way, and in many not.

    There have been many fights on DailyKos about religion. Most of us do not hate those that attend church, just the organized religion leaders. I personally do not hate my Mom or sister or brother or friends that are still active Mormons.

    We in the progressive blogosphere will fight tooth and nail...and we welcome those within organizations that stand with us.

    So from me to you...apology accepted...and hugs given for having you standing here with us.

    "When there's only one race and that's mankind, Then we shall be free" Garth Brooks

    by SallyCat on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:14:10 PM PST

  •  As a gay man, this is of little comfort. (4+ / 6-)

    Your organization is filled with hate and trying to curtail my rights.  If I met a Mormon, I'd spit on them.  Mind your own business in your state and stay out of mine.

  •  When I was there (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    QuickSilver, snoopydawg, TokenLiberal

    the correct term for a "good, conforming red-state Utahn" was Utoid.

    But then, my favorite album was Plague of Locusts' "Utah: Gateway to Nevada".

    He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. - John Stuart Mill

    by drnihili on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:17:22 PM PST

    •  The beer'll bust your bladder (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SallyCat

      Lived in Cache Valley.  Oh...

      [When] the land... has become private property, the landlords... love to reap where they never sowed, and demand rent even for its natural produce. ~Adam Smith

      by ogre on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:30:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I live in Utah, grew up in the church, and left (15+ / 0-)

    because of the narrow minded attitudes that refused tolerance of any kind.  I'm not big on being controlled, especially in matters of conscience.

    All I can say is follow what's in your heart and let it guide you.  Controlling behavior has gotten out of hand among certain segments of the church.  That's their problem, not yours.  It's a violation of what Mormons believe, who believe that choice and free will is very important and a gift from God.  It's ironic that this is the very thing they often want to eliminate.

    No group of individuals walk entirely in lockstep, nor should they.  Eventually, the Mormons will realize this - and hopefully, realize their own part in harming others who have harmed no one.

    Good luck to you.

  •  Thank you for the diary... (16+ / 0-)

    A previous commenter asked you to leave the Church.  If you are a lifetime Mormon that grew up LDS, that is not an easy decision as it means leaving a community that you have been a part of for a long time.

    Your apology is heart-felt and that is enough for me for now.  Whether or not you leave, this is going to have long-term negative effects for the institutional Mormon Church.

    •  Oh, I don't know. (0+ / 0-)

      I grew up Catholic in Utah. My older brother joined the mormon church. My middle brother was gay. As am I. I had many doubts about the Catholic church for quite some time, but when I heard the Pope say it was a sin for and African man infected with HIV to use a condom, I blew and left the church behind for good. Then as I was looking for something else, I started reading about the Catholic Church's history. The inquisition, the witch hunting, and finally when I watch Martin Luther and a pope selling Indulgences so he could build the Vatican, I realized it was really the right decesion. Only my opinion, but I think organized religion is there to make money and people that need that much structure to think are actually really selfish when it comes to humanity and it's issues.. Not sure if any of this makes sense since I am getting drunk on Utah beer because Obama just took Ohio. But I accept the diarist's heartfelt apology. Wish I had said more earlier about that, but I was on my Ipod at work with a low battery. Yep, getting drunk tonight.

      Freedom requires effort if it is to be won and vigilance if it is to be maintained. People don't value freedom until it is taken away. Richard Rahl

      by snoopydawg on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 06:53:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  this is somewhat heartening (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mijita

    to hope that this is ripping apart such a bigoted organization.  If this homophobic group is in irreparable pieces, I'll be dancing on them.

  •  You're wrong (13+ / 0-)

    this is my clumsy and inarticulate apology for Yes on 8.

    It is neither.

    My sympathies.

  •  how long until you folks (9+ / 0-)

    take over your church?

    I do thank you for your apology, and you're forgiven, but enough should be enough. Can't you split off into your own denomination like almost every other Protestant Christian sect has? I mean i like that Mormons are big on family. Well I am too. I want to form my own family, and have no legal barriers to do that which your church has chosen to do in California and other areas.

    It wasn't too long ago that your church and its followers suffered a series of pogroms in this very country. That too was wrong. Is this revenge for that?

    I'm probably asking the wrong person, but thanks for the diary anyway.

    NEWS, n. pl and sing. Formal information formatted for the infernally uninformed. (0.12, -3.33)

    by terrypinder on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:18:54 PM PST

  •  Good To See Your Aware Of It (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hannibal, Killer of Sacred Cows

    Probably never was a pleasant experience for the young twerps who go to door to door preaching Mormonism. Just saying that it is going to get one hundred times worse here in California. No fucking mercy.

  •  Thanks for the apology, BUT ... (5+ / 0-)

    The damage is done. I will be more polite to you than I have been elsewhere, b ecause you seem a decent person apologizing for your church's bigotry.

    However, this fight is not over. When a religious institution throws its weight behind an attempt to impose laws of conduct conforming to their beliefs, those beliefs become a legitimate target.

    This is especially true of the next generation. We must attempt to liberate the children from the false information given them by their church and parents. We must expose those teachings that contradict reality and undermine the basis of the bigotry.

    So, Mormons are now targets. Sorry. But it their own actions that bring this about. You are right to predict tears. I hope you will not have too many of your own.

    As a teacher, I must tell kids the truth. Even when it is inconvenient. And I will.

    Don't you think John McCain looks tired?

    by MakeChessNotWar on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:20:35 PM PST

    •  it is a tragedy (6+ / 0-)

      for the LDS Church. But I'm gathering that most Mormons, and the leadership, don't realize it yet.

      I'm still amazed at the Church's statement yesterday in response to the Courage Campaign commercial. The Church asked people to treat it with the same "courtesy" it affords gays and lesbians in sponsoring and promoting Prop 8:

      "The Church has joined a broad-based coalition in defense of traditional marriage.  While we feel this is important to all of society, we have always emphasized that respect be given to those who feel differently on this issue.  It is unfortunate that some who oppose this proposition have not given the Church this same courtesy."

      Did the LDS Church emphasize "respect" when it crafted its malicious campaign of lies? Did an LDS Church official sign a shakedown letter out of "respect" (or was it a "courtesy")? Was it out of "respect" that the LDS Church refused to pull a deceitful ad from the air, ignoring the plea from these parents?

      FYI, the Mormons' "broad-based coalition in defense of traditional marriage" includes support from the Family Federation for World Peace and Unification (USA), which was founded by Reverend and Mrs. Sun Myung Moon.

      (Apart from everything else, Rev. Moon is on his fourth wife. It's reassuring that the Mormons aren't particularly scandalized by that, at least.)

  •  WHAT A WASTE (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ogre, opinionated, jessical, Sailbourne

      I consider it almost criminal, and certainly a violation of any honest faith, to see so much money, time and resources be put into something that is, ultimately, "trivial".  By trivial, I mean in its impact on heterosexual marriage.  Its impact on gay people is enormous, in both symbolism and reality.
      With the world in so much turmoil, THIS IS HOW churches opt to spend millions of dollars and man-hours?   Shame.

  •  Here's how I think this ends. (9+ / 0-)

    Prop 8 fails.  The people who helped defeat it build bridges in every community.  As hopeless as you may feel right now, you are building one of those bridges.

    The biggest mistake, however, would be to stay quiet, regardless of the outcome.  Speak up and tell everyone in your church where you stand.  Whether you want to stay in the church or not.

  •  Apology Accepted for YOU (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    opendna, tmo, troutwaxer, Ebby

    I will NEVER forgive your church-- sorry, CULT.

    Knowing that they have been plotting since 1997 to eliminate my rights makes my blood boil. And if Prop 8 passes, I will devote my life to taking down the Mormon Church.

    This I swear.

    Yes we can. Yes we can. Yes we CAN. Because we MUST. NO ON PROP 8!! No on Hate. No on 8!

    by CajunBoyLgb on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:23:44 PM PST

  •  friendships and positive work relationships... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ogre, opinionated, slksfca, TokenLiberal

    ...are not necessarily predicated, for me at least (as a socialist transsexual woman who identifies queer) on someone's religious or political affiliation.  I may not like it, and if it gets acted out in some particularly offensive way, I may bail.  I don't generally seek out people who actively oppose my civil rights, and ultimately there..are real questions.  But it's not a dealbreaker.  I don't see how one can encompass people in all their messy complexity and have an absolutely rigid litmus test like that...

    ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

    by jessical on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:24:23 PM PST

  •  I as one of teh gay, speaking only for me (12+ / 0-)

    Thank you for this.

    I am not of your religion.

    However I am religious myself (Jewish) and know that not everything others of my religion accept I would accept.

    You are welcome to come to my state (in reference to earlier post) anytime, this Illinois person welcomes you.

  •  I'll be honest with you. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NotFuzzy

    I never had a particularly high opinion of the Mormon church (or any church for that matter).

    Although two of my best friends in high school were Mormon (they had come with their families to open the new temple in the Maryland suburbs of DC).

    Given what the Mormon church has done during this election, I have no choice but to actively work for its further marginalization.

    Tit for tat, baby! That's how I roll.

    I regret that this has caused you grief, but you and others like you need to clean up the mess in your own church. We can't do it for you.

    "Some people pay for what others pay to avoid." -- Howard Devoto

    by droopyd on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:29:49 PM PST

  •  There is an old story (6+ / 0-)

    about a man who slandered his rabbi.  To make up for it, the rabbi told the man to stand in the center of town, cut open a pillow with a knife, and shake its contents into the wind.  The man finished, and the rabbi said "Good.  Now, go and collect up all the feathers.  That's what it is to spread rumors."

    It is much harder to put the genie of hate and intolerance back into the bottle than it was to let him out.  I believe that we as human beings are ultimately rational, even if we are too often swayed by prejudice and passion.

    I am very glad that you have come to see that intolerance and bigotry are wrong.  I do see the irony in the LDS, themselves victims of discrimination of marriage laws and religious prejudice in general, funneling money into hatred.

    The way to fight this is not to let us know about it, but to be a voice in your own community.  Look into how Stetson Kennedy fought against the KKK, and help to save your community from their own darker instincts.

    First they ignore you,
    then they laugh at you,
    then they fight you,
    then you win <-- YOU ARE HERE

    by Irony Raygun on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:31:35 PM PST

  •  it'll be a long haul. Look at the Catholics. (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tmo, ogre, SallyCat, mijita, EdSF, FrugalGranny

    The majority of Catholics will probably vote for a pro-choice president in this election. The church is still hardline on that issue.

    What needs to happen in the LDS church is a gradual decoupling of politics from the community of the church.  That's especially difficult for a church which has such a large population in one political entity (Utah).

  •  This diary cuts right to the heart (9+ / 0-)

    ...of what's going on in many Mormon families (including my own). I am lucky: my family has decided to put family before church. Other GLBT folks from LDS families will, sadly, have a different story to tell. But it's been a wrenching experience for all of us.

    The LDS Church has made a terrible mistake in pushing Prop 8. It's a clear case of what the Church itself would describe as 'exercising unrighteous dominion.' And I feel my pioneer ancestors shifting uneasily in their Utah graves.

    There are, in every age, new errors to be rectified and new prejudices to be opposed. -Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

    by slksfca on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:32:32 PM PST

    •  We really do need to talk about our common (5+ / 0-)

      history! Lots of us that were from Utah pioneers are full fledged progressives...and could be cousins!

      "When there's only one race and that's mankind, Then we shall be free" Garth Brooks

      by SallyCat on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:38:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm hoping we can have that talk (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SallyCat, FrugalGranny

        sometime soon. Some stories are best shared with others who can fully understand the cultural context, don't you think? :)

        -Scott

        There are, in every age, new errors to be rectified and new prejudices to be opposed. -Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

        by slksfca on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:45:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I live in Utah. All I can say is that bad (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      opendna, SallyCat, mijita, QuickSilver, slksfca

      things are happening here.  It's not the church I remember.  People are far more controlling - and absolutely freak out if you don't do exactly what they tell you to - than I ever remember from years ago.

      They're also way, way, way out there on the far right.  I consider their political ideas to be completely crazy.

      I'm an adult, and I don't need someone else to tell me how to think and how to live my life.  I can't stomach the need they have for absolute control.  I need to be free to think for myself.

      I hope they get their act together.  I really do.  If they don't, a lot more people are going to leave.

      •  Something I like to tell folks... (4+ / 0-)

        My two greatest political heroes were both Mormon, and both Democrats. One was my grandfather, a Bishop and fiercely proud New Dealer. The other was former Utah Congressman Wayne Owens, who was like a father to me at a crucial moment in my youth. Their influence is responsible for me being a progressive Dem myself.

        Unfortunately there are too few like them in the Church nowadays. I'd be glad to see that change!

        There are, in every age, new errors to be rectified and new prejudices to be opposed. -Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

        by slksfca on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:50:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  It's time for change: the church or you... (8+ / 0-)

    Thank you for your articulate and compelling post.

    You do not deserve to live this way. A church ought to provide a community that you can retreat to for spiritual nourishment, comfort, enlightenment and hope. Clearly, the LDS community isn't doing that for you now.

    You don't have to leave the church. But you do need to make a change, if for no other reason to provide yourself the comfort that the piece suggests you  painfully crave.

    Posting here is a great first step. Now, reach out to those fellow Mormons you've found, huddled whispering in the corner. Stand together, and talk a little louder next week. Invite a few more into the huddle.

    Talk louder still the week after that. Ask everyone in the huddle to make it their personal goal to connect with one other liberal Mormon in the week to come. Do the same the week after that.

    When the week comes that you can't find one, find a reasonable, moderate one whom you think would be open to hearing your grief over what the church is doing. With each passing week, grow your huddle into a group, then a movement, one that speaks with more confidence each time.

    Heck, read Kos' latest book. It's got some great advice on how to build movements from scratch.

    But you've got to do it. Otherwise, this shame, this grief, and, yes, this anger will eat you from within. And if you can't build a movement to take back your church, do not despair. You will be the same good-hearted, moral and upstanding person on the outside, should you choose to leave. Many others have.

    You can have change. It won't be given to you, but you can claim it for yourself. Many folks here are ready and willing to help. God bless.

  •  Best quote yet on the subject: (7+ / 0-)

    Never once has the Church asked me to become so personally and financially involved in efforts to feed the hungry, tend the sick, clothe the naked, and shelter the homeless.  But when two people of the same sex love each other, want to share their lives and get married, then of course my wallet must be pried open.

    I feel the same way.  Said so to my spouse last night, but not as well as you've put it here.  Thanks.

  •  To be honest (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    opendna, ogre, QuickSilver

    Yes on h8 has permanently tarnished the Mormon church. I'll have stern words for any missionaries that show up. My condolences for your faith.

  •  There will be no peace until man gets equal (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    opendna, SallyCat

    rights and justice.  Man will never have equal rights and justice as long as religion owns the debate.  Religion is the last refuge of of scoundrels which is not to say that the vast majority of religious folks are not kind and compassionate.  Do not let the churches to which you tithe embark on unrighteous paths.

  •  Thank you for your diary (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SallyCat, QuickSilver, slksfca, zongo

    There are some good things about the LDS church.  I have always admired the way the community takes care of its own and the importance of family.  (My definition of family is a bit broader though.)  Those qualities make it very hard to leave.  I had a friend who was excommunicated -- cut off completely from all her family and friends, and ultimately left her state and restarted her life -- because she was a feminist.  Very few people in any church can stand that social pressure.  Good luck.

    I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused

    by indigoblueskies on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:36:35 PM PST

  •  Since you wrote this, let me ask (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    opendna, FrugalGranny

    how can you give money to them?

    I mean, believe whatever you believe ... I am all for freedom of religion.  But given that you oppose how they are spending the money, how can you continue to give?

    Now, you may say that some of the things they do with the money are good .... I have no doubt that is true.  I recall, for instance, a great series of PSAs they ran about a decade ago.  

    But I stopped giving to the league of conservation voters because, while most of what they do is stuff I like, I do not want to support, even indirectly, any Republicans (and LCV has endorsed some).

  •  Thank you. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SallyCat, NotFuzzy, slksfca, zongo

    You pulled me from the brink of thinking of the Mormon church the way an African-American might think of the Klan.  I am sorry to have made a sweeping generalization.  We are all humans on this planet together.

    The Obama/Biden Inaugural -- the exact moment when the world goes from gray to colorful.

    by alkatt on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 12:42:47 PM PST

  •  Your heart (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SallyCat, zongo, FrugalGranny

    seems to be in the right place, there is no need for your apology to us. The proper place to begin is within your own church. There, you should confront whatever it is that needs to express such hatred against LGBT people that viciously suppressing our rights has become a full time obsession. Freedom of religion in this country is predicated on allowing our government to be free of religious interference. You need to ask questions of your leaders rather than apologizing to us.

  •  Keep us posted? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SallyCat, FrugalGranny

    It sounds like you're about to embark on some sort of journey, and maybe the Mormon church is, too. It's interesting to hear your perspective--I hope you continue to share it.

    Your sense of isolation even within your own marriage makes me sad, frankly. Don't you think you should start by talking honestly with your spouse? What do you think would happen?

  •  It may be time for liberal Mormons (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    opendna, perky mcjuggs, FrugalGranny

    to do what conservative Episcopalians have done, break away and form their own offshoot of the Mormon church.  Yes, it may be a schism, but I think that's what's needed.

  •  When they pass that plate around next Sunday (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    perky mcjuggs, snoopydawg

    put your apology in that.  Because it's YOUR money that is feeding their lies and hate.

  •  Maybe it's time (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    opendna, snoopydawg

    to make a choice.  Once you decide that social injustices are being perpetrated by an organization that is supposed to give you spiritual comfort and do good work, I don't see how you can be intellectually honest and stay.

    I know that it is hard, and adult development isn't easy.  But ethical challenges like this are what makes us better people...depending on what you choose:  the comfort of familiarity, or your principles of justice.

  •  The next time a couple of Elders stop by my door (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    opendna, snoopydawg

    they're going to get an earful.  I grew up in California, and what LDS has done to my home state is utterly disgusting.  

    Is it the fault of a couple of 19-year-olds?  No, not personally.  But if you put on the name tag, the white button-down, and the tie, you're representing the Church.  And if I make their day miserable, that's their tough shit.  LDS has spent upwards of $20,000,000 to spread hate and lies, and they damn well better expect blowback at the door.

    "Run, comrade, the old world is behind you!" -- Situationist graffito, 1968

    by Pesto on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 01:02:35 PM PST

  •  No calls for help for the needy? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slksfca

    Never once has the Church asked me to become so personally and financially involved in efforts to feed the hungry, tend the sick, clothe the naked, and shelter the homeless.

    You must have been I don't know where you have been, if you haven't heard these calls for service.  I have been reminded at least monthly of the duty to assist the poor and needy when the fast offerings come around.  

    I am a proud liberal, and converted member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  The Church's teachings on charity, kindness and forgiveness inform my actions.  I know because of the Church's teachings that I am alive today, and am committed to minister to the spiritual and physical needs of my brothers and sisters.  

    I don't think it necessary to resort to diatribe, conjecture and hate to make your point.  I suppose that doesn't inflame the base as much, but I don't consider Obama's hope filled approach to be a surrender or a retreat.  MLK, not Malcom X.      

    •  I'm recommending your comment because (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      snoopydawg

      your point is well taken. The LDS Church did a great job, for example, helping folks in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina; their skillful, well-organized work there was much admired by those who encountered it.

      But the diarist has a good point, too: it seems to me that the Church's vocal and insistent stance regarding Prop 8 is in sharp contrast to its quiet 'let not thy right hand know what thy left hand is doing' charity work. And I can't help but feel that it's just a bit... well, unseemly.

      There are, in every age, new errors to be rectified and new prejudices to be opposed. -Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

      by slksfca on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 02:22:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Given the concerns what way should they go (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        slksfca

        If a person has strong moral and religious grounds for objecting to marriage beyond a man and woman, they will not likely win over the kossacks on the values placed.  However, given that a person has  this real belief, and a sincere concern about the future restraint on their religious liberty, what method and/or avenue should they pursue?    

        We all may think a certain piece of property located on the Haram al-Sharif is only of tourist value, a historical curiousity.  But does this diminish the value held to this real estate by two world religions?  If so, how do they resolve it.  There are two competing interests there, that cannot simultaneiously exist in full flower.

        •  Their "Concerns" Don't Matter in CIVIL LAW (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          snoopydawg

          There are religious sects that object to their members marrying out of the tribe. Would you be so blasé if they conspired over eleven years to work towards passage of a constitutional amendment prohibiting marriage outside of given religious sects?

          Religious dogma HAS NO PLACE in civil law. Tradition does NOT justify discrimination or unequal access to rights and responsibilities enumerated in civil law.

          Religions have chosen to condemn me. Well, I have escaped their hate. And I condemn THEM. Unequivocably and absolutely.

          Yes we can. Yes we can. Yes we CAN. Because we MUST. NO ON PROP 8!! No on Hate. No on 8!

          by CajunBoyLgb on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 03:44:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Religions condemn you? (0+ / 0-)

            There is nothing in prop 8 that requires religion in a marriage, no requirement to go before a priest, nor have your marriage approved by a church.  There is no restriction of marriage outside "given religious sects".  

            Thank you for making your point clearer by bolding it and capitalizing it.  It makes the logic that much clearer.  I especially appreciate the pejorative use of "religious dogma", but I have to disagree with you.  As one of the tenets of my belief, I have a "dogmatic" belief in the equality of all people.  This certainly doesn't preclude me from arguing for social, economic and political equality, or does my religious belief handicap my ability to participate in the political conversation, rendering me a second class citizen?  Clearly not.  

            As to unequal access to responsibilities (i think that is what I was asking for), you can have my share.  I would be happy to let you take on my responsibility to pay taxes.  Next time I get called for jury duty, I will let you know.  No, no. Don't have to thank me, and don't worry about me being excluded, I am ok with it.  

            As to "access to rights", I am not sure exactly what you mean.  Do you mean that the Talmud shouldn't prevent handicap ramps at polling places?  

            I see nothing in Prop 8 that condemns you as a person.  Sorry no "Cajunboylgb is condemned".  There is restrictions of any sexual actions between consenting adults.  No denial of voting rights.  Cajunboylgb has the same marriage rights as I, to marry a person of the opposite sex.  Please spare me the dramatic diatribe and save it for the stump.  

            But your hatred of "religions" is well manifested.  Make sure you don't commit any violent crimes, or you will be subject to a mandatory enhancement.

            •  You Miss the Point Entirely... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              snoopydawg

              sigh I cannot expend the energy to clarify points that should be perfectly clear.

              Obviously your Mormonism is important to you. You're also obviously straight and don't have any real interest in supporting equal rights for gays and lesbians.  No understanding as to why those of us who ARE, and who are married RIGHT NOW, would be a bit upset that certain bigots have put our marriage rights (which the California and US Supreme Courts have both said are basic human rights) up to a vote. My marriage-- which is very important to me and my husband-- is in real danger. From religious nutjobs, from out of state, whose marriages (did you know the Rev. Sun Myung Moon is on his FOURTH wife right now?!) are not endangered in the slightest by mine.

              Oh, and Howard F. Ahmanson Jr., heir to the Ahmanson fortune, a Christian Dominionist whack-a-doodle and diagnosed schizophrenic. At least he's a Californian. But equally dangerous to my marriage.

              This is MY LIFE. This is MY HUSBAND'S LIFE. This is the life of over ten thousand gay and lesbian couples who just want to get the same marriage benefits and responsibilities that straight people have. Without the tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees we'd have to pay-- and time lost in law offices-- when we have to take care of each little benefit (property ownership and inheritance, visitation rights in the hospital, child welfare, etc.) that straights take for granted.

              That's all.

              Yes we can. Yes we can. Yes we CAN. Because we MUST. NO ON PROP 8!! No on Hate. No on 8!

              by CajunBoyLgb on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 04:48:37 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well at least I didn't get Mormon Nutjob (0+ / 0-)

                Is nutjob a technical term?  I didn't find it in the dictionary.  Now down to it.

                My "mormonism" isn't important to me.  I could care less about how "mormon" i appear, or the outward trappings.  I have a sincere religious belief, which I did not make an issue in my response, so please don't drag it in.  It isn't important for what I am saying, and while I appreciate your attempt to be conciliatory, making this comment has the unintended (i hope) impact of discounting my comments.  Oh, he is one of those.

                I do appreciate you picking on other religions. I tend to agree with some of the specific critiques, but more importantly it shows you aren't an anti-mormon, just anti-religious.  Which to me can be a much better thing.

                I don't think they are out of state religions tho. The LDS faith has been a part of california's history since 1847. About 1.4 percent of California's population belongs to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  According to the 2000 census, about 1 percent of the population of california identified as gay.  Some estimates put this as high as 3.2 percent identifying as lesbian or gay.  California's Catholic population is about 28.8 percent of the Population of California, and growing.  

                Not to be facetious, but under Prop 8 you will have the same marriage rights as anyone else.  To marry someone of the opposite sex.  I know this isn't what you mean by equal rights, nor is it acceptable to you.  And I really don't want to get into the old sawhorse about how if we permit marriage between any consenting adults, what right do we have to restrict multiple adults from entering into marriage relationships.  It won't convince you, and it isn't satisfying to me either.

                Also, if you are paying tens of thousands of dollars to handle property ownership and inheritance you are either really well off, and would end up having to pay this anyway to circumvent tax rules, or you are getting ripped.  Nolo.com anyone?

                Additionally, these things can all be handled by civil unions.

                To me, the best solution would be to rip marriage licensing from the state.  Its a loaded gun, so lets take it away from the kiddies.  It will be civil unions for everyone, and if you want a marriage, fine, go to your priest, bishop or religious leader of choice, but it will have no legal meaning.  

          •  another aside (0+ / 0-)

            and by the way, government has long discriminated, or to use a less loaded term, differentiated and allowed differentiation based upon actions, as opposed to status.  

            Thus you can't not hire me because I am Indian or Hindu, but you can not hire me to be a meatpacker because I cannot kill cows.  Some actions, such as religious observance can allow for the individual treatment, but generally require a reasonable accommodation.   Thus the muslim woman might not be fired for refusing to remove her abaya as a secretary, but to refuse to remove it while operating heavy machinery might lead to permissible firing.

            My point, there are different rules for different categories.   Thus the rules for women/men are different than the rules of white/black.  I don't see segregated bathrooms, but I do see gender specific bathrooms.  Separation of the sexes clearly has some basis in tradition and religion, but these reasons don't disqualify the arguments for keeping the "discrimination" inherent in separate ladies rooms.  

            Though maybe we should have single sex bathrooms, the womens are always so much nicer!

  •  Evil triumphs when good men do nothing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    snoopydawg

    You ask for our prayers as if no one is doing it already - you're failing to hear the prayers of everyone wishing that the Mormon church would stop actively and systematically trying to hurt us in God's name.  
    Everyone remembers how the Mormon church treated African Americans in God's name.

    Edmund Burke said all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
    And JFK said in his inaugural address, "...here on Earth, God's work truly is our own,"  meaning it is up to us.

    Don't expect to experience the Mercy of God's forgiveness if you continue to support an organization that causes the suffering of a group of God's children in YOUR name.

    It's really not about what your church will do, or what your spouse will do or what your friends will do.  I suspect you have already realized what God is telling you.  The question is, what will YOU DO.  

  •  As a Mormon "member of record" (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    opendna, SallyCat, NotFuzzy, BFSkinner

    (fancy-pants term for "no longer participating," or "inactive in Mormon parlance), and as one who has donated more money than we can afford to No on 8, and spent many, many hours writing reams of arguments to try to persuade people to vote No on 8...

    Thanks for this, mormonvsprop8. I know just how you feel in so many ways.

    Book excerpts: nonlynnear; other writings: mofembot.

    by mofembot on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 01:26:03 PM PST

  •  I always thought actions... (0+ / 0-)

    ...were more important than what a person believes while performing those actions.  If we can work together on issues, it really doesn't matter to me if we have different goals while working on the project.

  •  Some of us know what it's... (0+ / 0-)

    ...like to be in the closet.  Come out of the proverbial closet, mormonvsprop8...no more dark corner conversations with like-minded parishioners.  Time to be yourself and risk the rejection of the flock.  

    "NO! I will NOT yield!" Ted Stevens (R) Alaska

    by 4kedtongue on Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 02:37:24 PM PST

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