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I am working too hard.  I have no time to write diaries.  Yet between yesterday afternoon, when I'd finally read one hateful racist fingerpoint from a white gay person too many here and elsewhere on the internet, I'd had enough.  I therefore blew off work that needed to get done and still needs to get done to try and put to rest, once and for all, this virulently racist idea that Black people are to blame for the passage of Proposition 8 here in California.  It is an idea grounded in utter myth, a complete lack of knowledge about anything related to Black people's presence in California, and just plain old scapegoating.

Hoepfully, this diary will help put all that to rest, and we can get back to work trying to beat back the hateful results of Tuesday's vote.

(And, in the case of some of the worst anti-Black offenders here on this site since Tuesday, I admit that I hope that whe confronted with the facts they will just shut the fuck up -- and hopefully undo some of their hateful damage. I was at a conference today in San Francisco and heard from more than one of my white gay and lesbian colleagues that they had received e-mails with some rather disburbing -- and racist -- rhetoric on this issue yesterday from other members of the local gay community).  

Those white gay persons who have engaged in hateful, racist rhetoric and scapegoating here at DailyKOS may feel that they no longer need or want Black people, and if so, they can feel free not to read this.  But before they do, ponder this:  their Black gay and lesbian brothers and sisters do need them.  As much as they also need Black people.   And I can only imagine, what the rhetoric has been doing to tear the very heart out of Black gay and lesbian people this past couple of days.  

I know what it has done to mine, as a Black bisexual poly that nonetheless doesn't have to "deal" because I am in a heterosexual monogamous marriage.

This diary is organized around the myths that necessarily underlie the scurrilous claim that "Black people are to blame." If you're not a statistics person, you might want to read this other diary here, which says in far less technical language what I am trying to say here.

Factually Unsupported Myth #1:  CNN’s 10% Black exit poll sample accurately reflects the actual distribution of voters on Proposition 8.

Each and every argument I’ve read since Proposition 8 passed that lays blame on Black people --- whether only like the worst of the haters or even primarily -- for the passage of Proposition 8 starts with CNN’s exit poll statistics about Proposition 8 at its foundation.  Yet anyone who knows anything about the demographics of the State of California – or anyone who spent ½ as much time looking up actual data as ranting all over the free world about what "Black people" did "to gay people" (as if those groups are wholly separate, telling you a lot about the racism that underlies the argument) would know that 10% simply defies reality, unless a million or so Black folks snuck into the state just before the election so they could say they cast their vote for Barack Obama on sunny California shores.

But even if you are not like me, not an actual resident of the state and willing to do my homework before spouting off, it did not take any study to figure out what was the problem. Indeed, if you read CNN’s own explanation of its exit polling/projection process, it is clear that CNN makes no claim that the distribution of folks which it exit polled about Proposition 8 was necessarily reflective of the actual racial percentages of the California electorate who voted, not even in those places that CNN actually exit-polled in.  From CNN’s own website about its methodology:

The process of projecting races begins by creating a sample of precincts. The precincts are selected by random chance, like a lottery, and every precinct in the state has an equal chance to be in the sample.  They are not bellwether precincts or "key" precincts. Each one does not mirror the vote in a state but the sample collectively does.
The first indication of the vote comes from the exit polls conducted by EMR. On the day of the election, EMR interviewers stand outside of precincts in a given state. They count the people coming out after they have voted and are instructed to interview every third person or every fifth person, for example, throughout the voting day. The rate of selection depends on the number of voters expected at the polling place that day. They do this from the time the polling place opens until shortly before it closes.

What's missing from this picture?

CNN has left us without a critical piece of information necessary to establish the validity of its sampling on Proposition 8:  precisely where the network exit polled in California.  It simply says that "the aggregate sample is accurate" but has not provided they key piece of information necessary to actually prove it.  

This matters for a reason.  Specifically, in a state where different demographic populations are reasonably-evenly spread throughout a state, which does not also have dramatic divergences in political ideology which depend on where you live within the state, CNN's methodology might permit it to make a truly accurate statement about the percentage of voters in total who voted on a measure state-wide.  

That, however, is not an accurate description of the state of California, as anyone who lives here knows.

In California, virtually all of this state's Black folks live in just 9 of the state’s 58 counties:

Alameda County (13.7% Black)

Sacramento County (10.5% Black)

Los Angeles County (9.6% Black)

Contra Costa County (9.5% Black)

San Joaquin County (8.0%  Black)

San Francisco County (7.2% Black - although this number has plummeted and will plummet more after redevelopment of the last "Black neighborhood", Hunters' Point)

Riverside County (6.6% Black)

Kern County (6.3% Black)

and

San Diego County (5.5% Black).

The vast majority of the counties in this state have a percentage of Black residents of between 1 and 2% (and several have far have less than 1%).  

When you know that about California, you know that CNN's "random selection of precinct" method doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense if what you’re trying to do is actually know what Black voters are doing at the polls.  

Frankly, in a state whose political leanings of the state are quite red/conservative except for a few pockets of population (which state unleashed Ronald Reagan on the nation again? Any guesses?), choosing precincts to exit poll "by random selection", and then selecting targets by simply counting either 1 out of 3 or 1 out of 5 – with no attempt to ensure that you are getting an accurate correlate by race -- is a recipe for statistical disaster if what you are trying to do is make a claim about not only how many Black people actually voted, but what those Black voters did, or did not do, on a particular matter.

(In this case, the disaster has in fact occurred and unleashed hateful anti-Black rhetoric from white gay bloggers and others that is going to set the cause of gay people back a long fucking time in the Black community if it doesn’t get in check.)

Finally, when was the last time you heard of an exit poll that measured voters by mail? In another state and in another election, not including votes by mail might not matter so much.  But in California? In this election? It is a huge omission of data.  Since an estimated  4,000,000 voters in California are registered as "permanent absentee voters.".  It is estimated by the No on 8 Campaign that 3,000,000 absentee votes were cast in California for Tuesday's election.  We are not even going to discuss early voters, since I cannot find a statistic on them right now other than to note that a lot of California voters cast their votes before Election Day.  So who knows how those two groups cast their votes on Proposition 8, their racial makeup, or anything else?

I don’t.  Neither do you.

Factually Unsupported Myth #2:  There were enough Black people in California to have created, all by themselves, the 510,000 margin (as of tonight) of passage for Proposition 8.

(Yesterday, the measure was winning in the AM by only 400,000 and last night by 504,000 votes.  Today's numbers indicate that as absentee ballots continue to be counted the "Yes" votes are outstripping the "No" ones.  Sadly.  Depressingly.)

Let’s now discuss the bottom line fact from which all of the seemingly never-ending "Black voters are the reason Proposition 8 passed" must necesarily flow:  the number of Black voters in California.  Exactly how many Black voters are there in California? Let’s try and find out.

This is the math part.

As of the 2000 census, 6.7% of California's population was Black - 2,one time 6.depending on whether you go with the 2000 Census.  However, the more up-to-date ACS estimates indicate that in 2006, only approximately 2.26 million Black people lived in the state.  Just 6.2% of the entire state's population.

(This, attentive people will note, is far, far, below our national presence of around 13%.)

I’m going to repeat this for those who are twisting in the wind and keep repeating the false idea of a 10% Black electorate statistic like an emotional life raft in their grief over Proposition 8.

There are only 2.26 million Black people in the entire State of California.  We are just 6.2% of the entire population in this state.

Black people are the smallest minority in California other than Native Americans and Pacific Islanders, which come in at just under 7/10ths of 1% and 3/10ths of 1% respectively.

(We used to have lots more Black folks here -- as is evident in even the differene between the 2000 Census and 2006 ACS data, but there has been a reverse migration of African-Americans out of California for the past 15 years or so, the bulk of which has been in the past 5 years.  We are the only demographic in California whose population estimates are going down, not up, each year.  Rapidly going down, at that, due to the economic difficulties that poor and working class people have had surviving in this state since the dot-com boom.  Unfortunately, it’s just going to get worse thanks to the California foreclosure crisis, which has devastated Black and Latino communities throughout the state, but it is too early to know new numbers just yet; the 2010 census will be telling.)

It is here that I note for the record that, in contrast to the 6.2% of California that is Black, non-Hispanic whites constitute 43.1% of the California population, Latinos 35.9% and Asians, 12.4%. (There is a 1.2% overlap, mostly between Blacks and Latinos since of course there are a bunch of Latino Black people although you’d never know it sometimes listening to the rhetoric.)

That means:

There are 7 times as many white people in California as Blacks.

There are nearly 6 times as many Latino people in California as Blacks.

And there are double the number of Asian people as Blacks.

Be sure to keep these numbers in mind when thinking about CA registered voters, and Proposition 8.

For the purposes of trying to set the record straight here on DailyKOS and elsewhere on Proposition 8, even though the Black population has declined between 2006 and 2008 and the 2010 Census will almost certainly show it is no longer accurate, let's use the 2.26 million figure for the purposes of the rest of this diary.    

Factually Unsupported Myth #3:  All Black people in California are old enough to vote.

It seems obvious, but at times when folks are writing diaries blaming "Black people" or "Blacks" or "Black women", without any qualification, for Proposition 8 – even though 1/3 of us voted against it by CNN’s own poll  -- and when folks make choice comments such as ‘Dad, I’m no longer a nigger lover!" (which earned my only troll rating of the entire two days), I guess it needs to be said:  Black folks are not hatched fully grown.  And, as we all know, in this country until one is 18 years old, one cannot vote.

Of the 2.26 million Black people living in the glorious state of California, just around 700,000 (691,313 of them in 2003, the last number I could find) are under the age of 18, going by the census data.  Deducting those Black people leaves only 1.56 million Black adults in the state.  The maximum number of eligible voters taking into account no other factors, if every last one of us Black folk in California were registered voters.

(Those of you who have looked at these numbers and know that Proposition 8 lost by 510,000 votes know why I’m taking what will be 5+ hours to write this diary, since you can already see where we’re heading numerically even if we stopped here.  This diary is not intended to educate you, because your racism doesn’t cloud your judgment or common sense.  This diary is for those other folks.)

Alas, not all of those 1.56 million Black folks can vote.  

Factually Unsupported Myth #4:  All adult Black people in California are eligible to vote.

California is one of 47 states that strips voting rights from convicted felons, whether they are incarcerated felons or on parole supervision.  Rights are not automatically restored in this state when supervision ends:  one must apply for restoration (thank all those "victims’ rights" and "tough on crime" propositions that keep turning up on California ballots if you want to blame someone.)  The impact of this on the electorate is not evenly distributed.  Instead, it disproportionately impacts Black people – a racist justice system yields racist fruit.  

As a result, approximately 13% of all Black men are ineligible to vote nationwide.  And approximately 114,305 Black adults in Cali are felony disenfranchised 7.6% of all Black adults in this state. (Hold your cursor over the state of California and the statistics will come up to the right of the map).  Whether or not they are in custody.

Importantly, that number does not include the additional who are in county jails who are not disenfranchised because they are serving misdemeanor sentences, awaiting trial, or awaiting transfer to state prison.  That number is large, but impossible to calculate quickly because it must be done county-by-county.  However, in Los Angeles County alone, jail inmates are 21,000 people, 1/3 of who are Black (6,300).  No one can argue with the reality that (a) most folks in jail do not make voting their priority since survival tends to take up much of their bandwidth; and (b) not a lot of jail (or prison for that matter) personnel make telling eligible folks in jail that they can still vote, or helping them do so, a priority.  Presently, 1 out of every 12 Black men in California is incarcerated.   Contrary to our progressive image, California is one of the nation’s leaders in locking up Black (and Latino) people, but that’s another diary for another time.

But for the purposes of this diary, even though it defies all rational sense, let’s pretend that the locked up Black folks who aren’t legally disenfranchised somehow managed to cast a vote on Tuesday anyway, OK? It probably will make some of the haters who want to pin Proposition 8 on Black people feel better.  And I do want them to feel better.  

I just don’t want them to scapegoat my people while you do it.

So our 1.56 million adults are now down to 1,445,700 or so as the maximum number of Black eligible voters in California on Tuesday.  If 100% of them were actually registered to vote.

Which they weren't.

Factually Unsupported Myth #5:  Virtually every adult, non-disqualified Black person was registered to vote on Election Day.

It is not in dispute that Black voters have historically usually been represented in the electorate in reasonable parity with our share of the population.  There was nothing in advance of the election to indicate this had changed, and considering that voter registration was up for everyone, there is no evidence to say that our increases in registration could make up the difference between the 6% of the electorate we would normally represent and the 10% folks are assuming from misreading CNN's exit polling.

Black voters are presently also estimated to be about 6.2% of the registered voters in California, in relative parity with our representation in the general population, unlike Asians and Latinos who are both underrepresented in the electorate. (Whites are dramatically overrepresented in the California electorate, 63% of it or so).  

On election day, there were 17,304,091 registered voters in the State of California.  

Black folks, assuming they were in fact 6.2% of the electorate this year, in parity, would be only 1,072,653 of those voters.  This number would be not to far off what one might have guessed knowing only that in this country, approximately 61% and 69%, respectively, of Black adults in the US were registered to vote in 2004 and 2006.  Using the high percentage of 69% would normally yield 997,553 Black registered voters in California if normal trends held.

We can agree, however, that even though there were still a quite few (8 million, just under 1/3 of our entire eligible Black population) unregistered Black voters just a couple of months before the election -- and that includes in California too -- this was not the year for normal trends, even in California.  Every demographic had higher registration for this election, but it seems none more so than Black people.  For obvious reasons.  Not all states keep track of this, but as was noted on sites like 538.com, in some states required to keep track of it for Voting Rights Act reasons, the increase was huge.  For example, in Georgia the Black electorate increased from 1,226,246 in January 2008 to
1,556,225 in November, 2008 - an increase of 26.9%.  However, that large increase was in a state where Black voters were historically well under parity in the voting population before this year.  Since California Black voters have always been registered in parity with their status in the population, let's say that because of the unique circumstances of this election (221 years in the making Hallelujah!) the number went up to 80% of all Black Californians were registered to vote.  (Only the Census numbers issued next year will tell us if our assumption is right.)  

Applying the 80% registered figure to our population of 1,445,700 gets us 1,156,560 Black California registered voters.  (A figure I have no actual factual basis for, but am using because in the end it both responds to arguments about extra Black folks voting and is just on the high end of reason -- since at 80% registration, Blacks would be well above the percentage of white voter registration!) Max.

This alone should give anyone spouting off about that CNN poll serious pause.  Since, of course, if Black folks were really 10% of the electorate, we would have contributed 1,730,409 registered voters to the pool.  This is a number which with 5 minutes of demographic research any of the haters spewing "Black people are the Reason!" would have realized exceeds the entire Black adult population in the state by more than 300,000 people, and the entire eligible Black electorate using generous assumptions about eligibility by 400,000, and the entire Black registered population even this historic year by 1/2 million souls.

(Which is why I said earlier that the only way that "Black people" alone could have been responsible for Proposition 8 is if a million of us Negroes snuck into the state just so we could claim to have voted for "Our President" (which someone in one thread actually seemed to argue through saying "Now they got theirs" to describe the election of Barack Obama on Tuesday, as if he felt folks gave "us" reparations or something they didn't want and need for themselves) on California soil.)

In other words, anyone who claims that Black folks were 10% of the vote on Tuesday is on crack.  Or something more hallucinogenic – mushrooms perhaps (very popular in this state.)  CNN at the top of the list, which did not make clear as it had a duty to do that the 10% figure it’s posted on it’s site represents only the percentage of folks exit polled through a random selection process that it tells you straight off may not have actually targeted where Black voters actually lived in California. and did not measure any votes that were not actually cast at a polling place on Election Day.

Repeating for the slow on the uptake: for African Americans to have been 10% of the California vote PERIOD they would have had to turnout in percentages not just dramatically disproportionate to their normal turnout – to the point of virtually 100% turnout; not just their percentage of the electorate, but nearly double it; and disproportionate to the actual turnouts everywhere we actually live in this state.

That only happens one way:  if the 16,000,000 white, Latino and Asian folks who were most of the rest of the electorate on Tuesday decided to stay home in large numbers.

Now, does ANYONE really believe that, even you haters who have polluted this site with your anti-Black racism in the past 48 hours despite your legitimate grief over Proposition 8? Was there some memo about white, Latino and Asian folks not being safe at the polls on "Our Day" that I that caused all of y’all to not turn out at the polls to the point where the smallest minority in California other than Pacific Islanders could almost double its normal impact on the vote? I didn’t get it, if there was.  My husband, who is white as a sheet, didn’t get it either.

(Maybe ‘cause he’s an immigrant who has not chosen to be an American citizen and therefore can’t vote – I dunno.)

Thus, stretching the truth as far in favor as those who need to blame Black Californian votes for Proposition 8 about as far as it can go, there were at the absolute outside 1,156,560 available Black votes in California to be cast on Proposition 8 - whether for or against, on Election Day.

But that number of 1,156,560 doesn't take into account one small thing:  the actual turnout on Election Day.

Factually Unsupported Myth #6:  There Were Enough "Black Votes" to be the "Deciding Factor" for Proposition 8.

Figures are obviously not final for turnout in California.  There is no evidence that anyone has found or cited that Black people actually voted disproportionately to the general registered voter population on Tuesday in California – the only attempt to claim differently is based on CNN’s 10% exit poll sample, which as noted above has serious methodological problems when applied to California’s unique Black population distribution.  

However, we do know that there are, so far, 10,325,615 total votes on Proposition 8, nearly 80,000 less than the total votes for the main event.   For Black people to have been 10% of that vote, they would have had to cast 1,032,561 votes on the measure, whether for or against.  In other words, Black Californians would have had to both had an electoral turnout at the polls of almost 90% AND have all voted on Proposition 8 (i.e, NONE could have been amongst the 80,000 who just skipped the Proposition on the ballot) to reach that number of votes.

Now, I am the first to concede that Black folks did indeed turn out in heavy numbers on Election Day.  It was a thing of beauty.  I cried when I got to the polls that day and saw lines I had not seen in decades.  Honest I did.  The first of many sets of tears I have shed over the election, including those shed when I learned that Proposition 8 had passed, and those shed since as I have watched the white racist vitriol and scapegoating that has taken place here at DailyKOS – where folks claim to be liberal – ever since.

But only a fool would believe that 90% of any voting demographic turned out on Election Day.  Such a thing has never happened in our history.  And it never will, since even in a country that has mandatory voting like Australia (i.e. you can actually go to jail if you don't vote long enough) they don't get more than 95%.

And it did not happen on Tuesday, either, when only 60.9% of the entire California electorate bothered to cast a ballot.  

I can already hear folks saying:  But Black people turned out more than other voters!

Maybe that's true.  But not likely true.  You can confirm that merely by looking at the turnout in cities where Black people actually live in California (anyone who lives here knows that there aren’t that many of them and for any who didn't, I've linked the numbers above.)
 
Just for fun, let’s start my own little tiny hood, the City of East Palo Alto, the only place in San Mateo County where Black people live in any meaningful numbers at all.  We have 21% African-American population here (down from 69.7% when I moved here nearly 30 years ago.)  Our population is approximately 31,000 people.  In our city, we have just 10,034 registered voters.
Of which only 3,563 turned out to the polls – a turnout of just 35.5%.

How about Alameda County, as noted above the place where the largest percentage of Black people live in California?  It did a lot better than my little city – but still had a turnout of just 55.86% on Election Day.

Well, what about Sacramento, you ask? (Let’s just travel through the lyrics of Dr. Dre’s and Tupac’s California Love while we do this shall we?)  Another big turnout there – of 58.79% of the electorate.

How about San Joaquin County – Stockton and Tracy, where many of us fled during the dot-com boom, driven financially out of the Bay Area proper from the cost of living? Even better: a 63.3% turnout.

Since I don’t have time to do every county I've listed above, how about we end with Los Angeles County, which previously had more Black people in it than anywhere else in California (but now are down to just 9.6% of the county population since they’re all being run out now – something about being targeted for racial violence in an increasing turf war and the police and liberals being so scared of the implications that they pretend the problem doesn’t exist might have something to do with that)

(In the City.....of LA....Long Beach in the House.....In the City.....of good old Watts.  Even Hollywood trying to get a piece of this.....In the City....City of Compton.......Pasadena? Pasadena, where you at? Inglewood....Inglewood always up to no good?  South Central!)

(OK I’m trying to make myself smile while I write this because I’ve been in so much pain over what I’ve read all over the ‘Net, particularly here at DailyKOS, I don’t know what else to do.  But this shit ain’t even funny.)

Los Angeles County had just 65.57% turnout on Tuesday. (You have to scroll down very close to the bottom to view the total) as of yesterday, reduced to 62.7%.

Now, these are counties where, as I have shown above, huge numbers of Black people (huge for a state that doesn't really have many, anyhow) live.  And yet the best turnout in any of them was 62.7% of the electorate.

As an aside, I wouldn’t be me if I didn’t note that someone here at DailyKOS, in discussing Negroes and Proposition 8, reached to the realm of the surreal and actually mentioned the increase of Black folks living in Imperial County as perhaps additional evidence that Black folks hurt the effort against Proposition 8’s passage.  In Imperial County, the most recent estimate is that Black people indeed have started moving there – such that instead of the 3.95% of the county they used to be Black folks now constitute (approximately) a whopping 4.2% of all Imperial County residents.  All 161,867 of them.  By my math, that means that approximately 6,799 Black people live there.  Of that number, only 4,744 of them are old enough to vote, since if I go by the public estimates approximately 31.4% of Imperial County residents are under the age of 18.  

It’s clear to any rational person when you look at these numbers that Black people moving to Imperial County was indeed a major nail in the 504,000 vote coffin of Proposition 8.  You simply can’t overlook the power of 3,321 votes(70% of 4,744) Black folks to sway an entire city’s electorate.  I don’t see why we didn’t all know that.

Maybe we didn’t know that because Proposition 8 lost by 11,573 votes in Imperial County – more than double the entire Black voting-age population of the county. and more than 3 times the number of votes that would have been cast by Black voters if the 70-30% CNN estimate was accurate.

I didn’t know we niggers had that much pull.  Wish someone had told me years ago.  We’d have had a Black president long before 221 years of nationhood and 389 years of internal colonization and genocide had passed on these shores, I bet you that, if only we’d known.  Or at least have had a nominee......

So to sum up.  Let's be even more generous to folks wanting to blame Black folks, since again the point of this exercise is to show that mathematically, you cannot lay blame for Proposition 8 at the feet of Black people alone.  Let's say that throughout the state, Black people turned out in as high a percentage as Los Angeles voters generally - 62.7%. (Unless you're contending that less of everyone else turned out?)

That means that out of our deeply inflated pool of 1,156,560 Black voters in California, if I bump up the turnout to the highest level where we actually live, at most 720,536 Black people actually made it to the polls or cast a ballot.

Even though we know that number was not that high in the place where more of us live than any other  Alameda County (which, by the way, defeated Proposition 8.)

It is only with these puffed-up numbers you even come close to supporting the claim that Black people are to blame.  And even then, under our hypothetical, and giving full credence to CNN's 70-30 exit poll split, at most 504,000 Black votes were cast for Proposition 8, versus 216,000 against it.  (378,000 of those votes, if I believe CNN, would have been cast by women, with only 126,000 cast by Black men - a 3 to 1 ratio on this issue which nobody who knows any actual Black people would believe in a million years - but which a lot of folks here on DailyKOS and the 'Net just repeated the few times Black women were pontificated about separate from Black people generally.)

Right now, as of 7:00 PM on November 6, with still more than 2,000,000 votes to be counted, Proposition 8 is already 510,000 votes ahead - 110,000 more votes than it was yesterday morning.

Utterly Supported Fact #1:  There Were So Many More White, Latino and Asian Votes in Favor of Proposition 8 That Blaming Black Folks is Both Bad Math and Racist Scapegoating of the Highest Order

I'm going to end by doing one other thing:  showing you the number of votes that non-Black people cast on Election Day in favor of Proposition 8, if I believe CNN's exit polls (which as I noted when I began, is the foundation for each and every anti-Black argument I've read on this site in the past 2 days.)  You compare those numbers to the TOTAL maximum number of Black votes -- women AND men -- in this state if I give the racist haters every benefit of the doubt as I have done mathematically above -- of 504,000 votes.  And then you make the argument to me that our segment of electorate is more to blame for an outcome in which we contributed -- even under the hateful math, only 4.9% of the votes.  Please.

Non-Black Votes in Favor of Proposition 8:

White Men:  51% of 31% of 10,325,615 votes:  1,632,480 Yes
White Women:  47% of 32% of 10,325,615 votes:  1,552,972 Yes
Latino Men:  54% of 8% of 10,325,615 votes:  446,067 Yes
Latino Women:  52% of 11% of 10,325,615 votes:   592,170 Yes
Asian/Native:  51% of 9% of 10,325,615 votes:  473,946 Yes

Total:  4,697,635 (9.3 times the maximum TOTAL number of Black votes in California.)

Now who did all y'all say was at fault, again? Answer - it wasn't us, unless you were contending that even if we went against Proposition 8 in the same proportions as everyone else it would have failed.

BTW, it wouldn't have:

Black Votes if We'd Voted Like Other People Did:

Black Women Voting Like White Women::  47% of 6% of 10,325,615:  291,182 Yes (a reduction of only 86,816 votes for Proposition 8 from our hypothetical maximum of Black votes cast)

Black Men Voting Like White Men::  51% of 4% of 10,325,615: 210,643 Yes (an INCREASE, if you believe CNN's poll even though Black men were reduced to a pitiful "N/A", of 84,643 votes, almost cancelling out the change in Black women entirely)

Black People Voting Like Asians/Natives:  49% of 10% of 10,325,615:  505,955 Yes

Adding the "enlightened" Black vote to the exising totals above for everyone else we get 5,203,590 Yes votes.  

Out of 10,325,615 votes.

In other words, Proposition 8 would have still passed by 81,565 votes, if Black voters had done no more than reflect the rest of the state's will on the matter.

Now.  With this out of the way, can we now please redirect our energies to actually putting the "blame" somewhere it makes sense to put it and, more importantly, mobilizing together to defeat this hateful thing in the courts, and can those that have been going to the anti-Black well over this thing just shut the fuck up? (I don't expect you to be man enough to apologize.)  

UPDATE:  A commenter rightfully pointed out that two action diaries on Proposition 8 were overlooked.  Please go and check them out - and take action:

Protest at Salt Lake Mormon Temple Friday Night

Prop. 8.  What we do Now.  ACTION.

And another action diary from this morning:  Protest in San Francisco Friday Night

As long as I'm updating, let me put this clearly where everyone can see it so maybe some of the more histrionic (and false) claims about my motives will stop:

Nothing in this diary attempts to excuse or forgive anyone who voted for Proposition 8 on Tuesday.  Not even Black people.

Originally posted to Maat's Feather on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 12:46 AM PST.

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  •  Great diary (148+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    aisling, nolalily, decisivemoment, Philosopher, noabsolutes, lobbygow, mntleo2, Oracle2021, dkistner, theran, 2lucky, Lexicon, sponson, sarahnity, highacidity, Ignacio Magaloni, murphsurf, David Boyle, mj171976, ccr4nine, Steveningen, kiss my left behind, Oaktown Girl, Panda, Luftmensch, Wizznilliam, murrayewv, julifolo, kplatv, marina, freakofsociety, basquebob, Cat Nerd, EJP in Maine, Dobber, majcmb1, figlet, algebrateacher, wbr, Flippant, ZinZen, redcedar, L Boom, dsteele2, ItsBiffy, Alexandra Lynch, twigg, Sagebrush Bob, gabriella, lazybum, Helpless, The Blue State Bandit, sephius1, anotherdemocrat, Digger8, Loudoun County Dem, jds1978, la urracca, auntgigi, sfbob, Swill to Power, second gen, cyncynical, jnhobbs, BasharH, TomP, royce, evora, bluesheep, rubine, kyril, KimD, mary13L, magicsister, vintagejulie, Diogenes2008, ryangoesboom, rubyclaire, cybrestrike, james1108, Discipline28, bimshire68, mkor7, cultural worker, rini6, Goldie Taylor, subframe, mama hearts obama, dsharma23, leney, Deoliver47, Exquisite, OffHerRocker, sunday driver, fitz2, Highwind, Maori, Jezreel, TenthMuse, bearfootin, MWJacobs, epstew, Lazar, jbjowe, bperk, LaKathie, ATLanthony, stegro, georgeisamonkey, Vacationland, publicv, tjcj, gramofsam1, a better tomorrow, Indie Tarheel, Devichan, No Looking Back, Eddie L, jerseyRican, HartfordTycoon, xhale, Bizzerkeley, Urtica dioica gracilis, MikeMaloney, science nerd, K in Oakland, Joy from Illinois, ChiTownBlue2000, ladona, bossnevs, tjbaker, Angelica Jo, Colorado is the Shiznit, lostinamerica2711, atheistben, Khemtawe, gbinwc, bonnettedbeauti, BlackQueen40, DesignGuy, jencke, mikejay611, guilford caswell, greatlyconcerned, mellowwild, twobanger, DIS, longdeshizi

    Recommended.

    •  Thank You (460+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
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Diogenes2008, ryangoesboom, 1BQ, multilee, cybrestrike, smellybeast, Leftcenterlibertarian, unwillingsuburbanite, rsmpdx, snackdoodle, ALifeLessFrightening, Discipline28, BoiseBlue, SuzeNYC, Carol in San Antonio, DemocraticOz, velvet blasphemy, XerTeacher, mkor7, cultural worker, No Credentials, JesseCW, barcode, Goldie Taylor, lookit, subframe, Mercuriousss, ancblu, BDsTrinity, mama hearts obama, Elsinora, asym, ZilV, dsharma23, leney, yoloensis, sistermoon, Robin in PA, jazzence, Swatmacher, hyper, Deoliver47, ninshubur, paintitblue, Craig Hickman, his panic, Exquisite, OffHerRocker, RadioGirl, Lava20, whatnext, flahawkfan, Muzikal203, JSC ltd, fitz2, koopa troopa, jfromga, JulieUnplugged, Highwind, cellopaddy, mcnamarm, Bene Gesserit1, 4cebwu, mertmh, myelinate, vcthree, Maori, sydiot, Jezreel, Adept2u, davespicer, deviant24x, TenthMuse, Leftcandid, bearfootin, lovelyivy, capasb, blackandaztec, teemel, Julia C, dtruth, xsonogall, Lazar, Fairy Tale, hablo, Alec82, Red Reign, possodent, bperk, KroneckerD, LaKathie, ATLanthony, gallimaufry, TrustInFaith, stegro, FrigginBoobs, Vacationland, Mopcomike, tjcj, gramofsam1, Dark Ranger, a better tomorrow, Firecrawler09, Indie Tarheel, zaynabou, boriquasi, randomsubu, Crabby Abbey, Devichan, kemetcc, Mycue, ronin122, No Looking Back, MotorCityBadBoy, marsokhod, Eddie L, MelKnee, b satz, boxcar daniel, Jimmm, SlackwareGrrl, InfiniteNether, Benintn, HartfordTycoon, xhale, aggie98, Laura in WA, debbieleft, ahimsa, nycjoc, Black Leather Rain, Bizzerkeley, Urtica dioica gracilis, MsGrin, Decatur, jonwilliamsl, Mokou, science nerd, K in Oakland, nosleep4u, SniperCT, wabird, HylasBrook, jeanma, TichMarie, The Social Worker, Rockpopple, Joy from Illinois, ChiTownBlue2000, imaginese, ladona, bossnevs, tjbaker, evilene689, motherfather, gobears2000, Colorado is the Shiznit, iugrad, Wilma Rudolph, Futzy, Sweetness and Light, Captain Antelope, atheistben, ems97007, carabeth, Khemtawe, randomname, AuroraDawn, arrows theorem, b4uknowit, BlackQueen40, Mistral Wind, beaky, RonMexico, sunshineflorida, mikejay611, BldrJanet, ThoughtRonin, skpow, greatlyconcerned, denison, mellowwild, Seek Truth, free as a butterfly, Veeajera, zukesgirl64, surfous, twobanger, S360, DIS, christhecolodem

      I couldn't take it anymore.  I was feeling completely ripped apart emotionally, at a lot of what I read here these past 2 days.  Including the denials from some folks now that some extremely hateful words (I will NEVER forget the commenter who wrote in anger "Dad! Guess what? I'm no longer a nigger lover! -- even though he thought that taking out the g's and putting in asterisks was supposed to help, I guess -- as long as I live.)

      •  Yes, this diary should see the rec list (97+ / 0-)

        I know it's a time for venting for the LGBT community, but falling back to racism is not the way.

        Marriage equality will come. Just like the laws that used to outlaw interracial marriage, laws outlawing homosexual marriage will fall, too. Not soon enough, but no progressive cause has ever come soon enough.

        •  The black community and its homophobic tendencies (43+ / 35-)

          can go to hell for all I care. 70% of blacks voted for Prop 8. Enough said.

          I'm just going to repost some statements I made in another diary on this subject. My disgust with the black community at this point knows no bounds.

          I blame black people as a black person.

             My community has some of the most bigoted and backward mindsets around, and it's in many cases due to heavy religious indoctrination and/or lack of education.

             It's one of the reasons I left the black community at large behind.

             There is just no place for me in it as a black gay man as far as I'm concerned. And the Prop 8 vote did nothing to change that thought.

          I help those who choose to help themselves.

             When you grow up in a community where your peers and their parents demean your attempts to make something of yourself as "acting white" and call you, by proxy, a pedophile when you're only 13yr old and in the closet, then yea. There's no room there for me.

             For those who choose to help themselves and are successful, I deal with them. For others, they can kiss my sorry ass.

             I just have a significant amount of anger to those hypocritical buffoons these days and how they've treated gay people.

             It's just unconscionable.

          I turned away from the "black community" years ago. This lopsided Prop 8 vote by the black community just further cemented why I did that in the first place.

             I take nothing back from what I said. The people that voted to take away the rights of others while voting for a black man and crying tears about how far tolerance and acceptance in this country has come are idiotic buffoons.

          President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

          by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:03:54 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

            •  The level of population in CA changes nothing (31+ / 7-)

              in the fact that 70% of those who voted who were black voted for Prop 8. I don't care if it was 100,000 or 1,000,000.

              The black community is filled with homophobic bigots. I grew up in the black community, particularly the church community. I know exactly what I speak.

              So you can kiss my ass right back.

              President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

              by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:08:40 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Seriously? (43+ / 0-)

                Actually, even if a group is disproporionately anti-gay, if they're marginal and tiny, it doesn't matter, right? Like if evangelicals were a tiny, non-influential portion of the electorate, we wouldn't care what they think. But really, the hostility toward ALL BLACK PEOPLE is ridiculous. Build a bridge.

                President-elect Barack Obama.

                by noabsolutes on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:16:23 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  As I said, I deal with and help those who help (16+ / 1-)

                  themselves and get over their own prejudices.

                  The rest can go to hell for all I care. And no, as a black man I say that with no regret.

                  President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                  by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:20:26 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Marginal and tiny? (20+ / 0-)

                  Even in CA, those descriptors don't apply.  But when we are thinking about the future of gay rights in this nation, the attitudes of African Americans are highly significant.  

                  Exit polls are certainly imperfect, but the diarist is reaching at straws to try to explain away the finding that 70% of black voters supported Prop. 8.  To make her case better, she would have to provide evidence that there are pockets of black voters in California that are much more conservative than average AND that they were way over-sampled by CNN.  

                  Of course African Americans' votes alone did not cause Prop. 8 to pass -- anyone suggesting THAT is scapegoating.   But I have not been hearing that argument.  What I'm hearing is resentment that a group which has experienced so much suffering would not jump to defend another.  To label that resentment "racist" is to dismiss it so it can be ignored.  (BTW -- I'm also hearing resentment toward voters who approved expanding farm animals' rights but not gay rights.)

                  I think there is a homophobic streak in the black community.  These exit polls are not my only evidence.  Many prominent black leaders have objected publicly to the idea that gay rights are "civil rights."  This is a reality that must be ACKNOWLEDGED so that it can be addressed.

                  •  Perfectly and precisely stated [nt] (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Tonedevil, sam2300, fizziks, lighttheway

                    President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                    by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:59:33 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  I agree that streak exists in the black community (5+ / 0-)

                    This is also true for every other community.  Hell, from what some friends used to tell me, there's a homophobic streak in the homosexual community, too.

                    It is unreasonable to point fingers at one particular group and say, "YOU doing this is far more evil/stupid/repugnant than THEN doing this."

                    "The goal of an argument should not be victory, but progress." - my fortune cookie

                    by Black Leather Rain on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:29:28 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  70-30 in the black community while everyone else (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      sam2300

                      is 50-50. Enough said.

                      President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                      by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:30:39 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Only... (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        mellowwild

                        Only if you decide skin color is the most valid element of what makes a person by which to define them.

                        Why don't we talk about the rampant homophobia among older white men?  They were a bigger part of the Yes Vote, and they (as lumped together group with no regard for the dignity of individual persons) have a huge homphobic streak.

                        AMERICA has a homphobia problem.  CALIFORNIA has a homphobia problem.  
                        The "White Community" has a homphobia problem.
                        "Older Whites" have a homophobia problem.
                        "Older Latinos" have a Homophobia problem.
                        "Older African Americans" have a homophobia problem.

                        Why won't CNN break down the income, education, and age of the 224 African American voters they polled?  Without those factors, how can we in good conscience attribute a trend to single characteristic?

                        Because America still has a RACE PROBLEM.  It didn't magically go away when Obama was elected.  Who cares if these "Yes on 8" voters were poor, or poorly educated, or elderly, or belonged to fundementalist sects, what matters most is COLOR.

                        This is sick. CNN trolled the Progressive Community.

                        •  Blacks as a community have an ENORMOUS (0+ / 0-)

                          problem with homophobia. The whole point of this response thread is the diarist's attempt to say "It's not the fault of black people!"

                          Well you know what, black people have some fucked up issues when it comes to homophobia. And for a people that were crying tears of joy at "overcoming" with the election of Barack Obama, they sure were some hypocritical bastards when voting 70-30 in California and 71-29 in Florida to ban gay marriages.

                          I'm sorry, but in the confines of this diary, black people ARE the valid element of discussion.

                          President Barack Obama - #44

                          by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:06:12 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  Well, (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      sam2300, Yalin, bonnettedbeauti

                      unreasonable except those other groups don't have the legacy of different drinking fountains, poll taxes, different lunch counters and slavery.

                      But I suppose the abused love to abuse when given the chance. I thank the 30% who saw through that crap and voted the right way.

                      Every good Christian should line up and kick Jerry Falwell's ass. - Barry Goldwater, 1981

                      by Doug in SF on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 10:00:39 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Other legacies, as well (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        smellybeast, alliebear

                        Being forced to march to your death from reservation to reservation because the US government doesn't know how to keep a promise.

                        Being kept in prison camps because despite being a full citizen, you happen to look like some people that bombed one of our military bases.

                        Being lynched or terrorized by the KKK - not because of the color of your skin, but because of where you immigrated from, or because of your religion.

                        Again - this shouldn't be a discrimination pissing contest.  No one has an excuse to support this proposition.

                        "The goal of an argument should not be victory, but progress." - my fortune cookie

                        by Black Leather Rain on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 10:18:59 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Tell me this? (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Doug in SF, Yalin

                        How many Latinos or African Americans have been disowned from their families and forced to live on the street because of the color of their skin?

                    •  People are expressing their emotions -- (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      dRefractor

                      their disappointment.

                      The evidence that African Americans may have disproportionately supported Prop. 8 is worrisome because they are such an important element in progressive politics.  If they do not support gay rights, it represents a major rift in our coalition.

                  •  right, very well said (9+ / 0-)

                    and the critique of homophobia within the black community will be most effective if it comes from within that community, not from white liberals standing on the sidelines casting aspersions.  which is why I think people are being too quick to try to silence what Yalin is saying.

                    I agree with the over-arching point of the diarist that blaming black people in CA solely for Prop 8 passing is silly, but honestly, I haven't seen anyone saying such a thing.  I haven't gone fishing for it, I just haven't come across it in my normal reading.  I've seen one bad headline from the Sacramento Bee which was featured on TPM which flatly stated that blacks caused Prop 8 to fail, and Jon Stewart said it last night on TDS, but I really haven't seen the DKos community as forcefully saying any such thing in significant numbers.

                    but questions of percentages and proportions in terms of how this awful initiative passed or not are separate from questions as to how and why and whether there is a large amount of prejudice against gays within the black community.  to say that there is seems to be almost being equated with racism in this diary, which I don't think is helpful.  yes, it is easy to immediatlely identify the logical flaw in simultaneously celebraing Obama's victory and voting to strip gay people of their civil rights, but this is a complex issue, and a lot of the 'clinging to religion' at work here, which tends to result in hatred of teh gay, is in fact a direct result of the oppression the community has experienced.  not that that justifies it, but it explains it in terms of very basic human psychology.  people who are hated look for someone to hate.  people who've been abused tend to end up abusing others.  its not a permenant condition, but it is a mucky mess.

                    •  asdf (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      sam2300, smellybeast, bonnettedbeauti

                      I whole-heartedly agree with your point about Yalin.  People are reacting negatively toward his anger, but it sounds like he has some things to be angry about.  He would have to "tone it down" if he were going to try to work on gay rights in the black  community, though.  And since I don't like talking about him in the third person when he is "here": Yalin, I understand that your wounds are too fresh for you to think about that right now.

                      You are right that religion plays a special role in the African American community.  The whole tangle of race, religion, an sexuality is indeed very complex.  This is why I think it is important to have the discussion, while I feel the diarist is trying to shut the discussion down.

                      •  Let's have a discussion about how we can get (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Lexicon, highacidity, bonnettedbeauti

                        more black people to fight discrimination against gay people.  We can't have that discussion based on Yalin's unsupported premise that the black community are the most bigoted, homophobic community.  It won't happen.  It just pisses off all the black people who are already supportive of the fight against discrimination, and don't think our communities are the most bigoted and homophobic.

                        •  So empirical polling as well as enormous amounts (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Tonedevil

                          of circumstantial evidence are unsupported evidence eh.

                          Until you recognize the fact that the black community has deep and enduring issues with gays, you'll never be able to address the roots of those problems.

                          President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                          by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 11:04:35 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Bperk...you're stretching (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Tonedevil, OJD, dRefractor
                          You owe it to yourself to find some sources you trust and read up on the issue.

                          I found this article, which seems to sum up the various polls I've noticed over the years:
                          http://www.sovo.com/...

                          "...the Georgia congressman illustrates a paradox that confounds gay rights activists, both black and white: While African-American civil rights leaders are among the most passionate and powerful allies speaking out for gay rights, support in the black population in general hasn't followed."

                          Generally speaking, the polling I have seen says black opposition to gay rights is in the range of 60-66%, consistent with this statement in the article:

                          "According to research conducted by the National Black Justice Coalition and several other organizations, as many as two-thirds of black Americans are against gay marriage. Although the numbers vary by poll, research shows most blacks oppose both gay marriage and civil unions."

                          "A survey for HRC in March 2004 showed fewer than one-third of black voters said gays should be allowed to marry.
                          ...
                          According to the survey, 50 percent of blacks strongly believed that gays should not be allowed to marry and another 11 percent agreed, albeit "not strongly."

                          Four years later, surveys show the numbers generally are unchanged."

                          I think the thing that is causing so much soul searching and sadness is that people who are gay and know it isn't a choice feel strongly that this is a civil rights issue, and that somehow the black community should be on our side.  Instead, not only are they not on our side, but the polling on the issue has remained pretty much constant even as other demographic groups move in our favor.  That suggests a complete failure to reach out and have any meaningful communication or dialogue on the issue.

                          No on Prop 8::Sometimes I get to hitch a ride on the Democratic Bus--they let me stand on the back bumper.

                          by steve04 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 12:11:21 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  thom hartmann was saying it on thursday (0+ / 0-)

                      on his show. another reason to disregard him.

                  •  She did (0+ / 0-)

                    b/c the exit poll was done where the population as a whole voted "yes". That to me is evidence. I live in Alameda County and I'd be surprised if the Af-Am "yes" vote cracked 50% over here.

                •  The thing is, this diary is wrong (28+ / 0-)

                  on almost every point.  Let's go down the list.

                  Yet anyone who knows anything about the demographics of the State of California... would know that 10% simply defies reality, unless a million or so Black folks snuck into the state just before the election so they could say they cast their vote for Barack Obama on sunny California shores. ... CNN has left us without a critical piece of information necessary to establish the validity of its sampling on Proposition 8:  precisely where the network exit polled in California.  It simply says that "the aggregate sample is accurate" but has not provided they key piece of information necessary to actually prove it.  

                  Two huge errors here.

                  1. If CNN conducted their survey as described, it doesn't matter what individual precincts were polled.  If you take enough random samples, all localized biases cancel out.
                  1. You're forgetting that the top of the ticket was one Barack Hussein Obama, who black people turned out in droves to vote for by the staggering ratio of 20 to 1.  That's huge motivation.

                  (We used to have lots more Black folks here -- as is evident in even the differene between the 2000 Census and 2006 ACS data, but there has been a reverse migration of African-Americans out of California for the past 15 years or so, the bulk of which has been in the past 5 years

                  You've completely misunderstood your link.  Your link states that there's been more migration out of CA, not a net population loss.  Judging by the 2006 data, there were 2.44 million AAs in CA, a net increase.  In case you've forgotten, migration is not the only way populations change.

                  There are only 2.26 million Black people in the entire State of California.  We are just 6.2% of the entire population in this state.

                  6.2% of the population doesn't change the fact that blacks made up 10% of the electorate that voted thanks to the ticket being topped by Barack Obama.  You can deny that until you're blue in the face, but a statistically valid sampling says otherwise.

                  So our 1.56 million adults are now down to 1,445,700 or so as the maximum number of Black eligible voters in California on Tuesday.  On election day, there were 17,304,091 registered voters in the State of California. ...  
                  Applying the 80% registered figure to our population of 1,445,700 gets us 1,156,560 Black California registered voters. ... This alone should give anyone spouting off about that CNN poll serious pause.  Since, of course, if Black folks were really 10% of the electorate, we would have contributed 1,730,409 registered voters to the pool.

                  Major logic error.  It doesn't matter what percentage of registered voters blacks are.  It matters what percentage of those who voted are.  As you yourself later note, "However, we do know that there are, so far, 10,325,615 total votes on Proposition 8".

                   For Black people to have been 10% of that vote, they would have had to cast 1,032,561 votes on the measure, whether for or against.  In other words, Black Californians would have had to both had an electoral turnout at the polls of almost 90% AND have all voted on Proposition 8 (i.e, NONE could have been amongst the 80,000 who just skipped the Proposition on the ballot) to reach that number of votes.

                  80,000 out of 10,325,615 is a mere 0.7%.  Its effect on the share of the black population that would have had to have voted is completely insignificant.  Almost everyone who voted voted on Prop 8.

                  But only a fool would believe that 90% of any voting demographic turned out on Election Day.  Such a thing has never happened in our history.  And it never will, since even in a country that has mandatory voting like Australia (i.e. you can actually go to jail if you don't vote long enough) they don't get more than 95%.

                  You're relying on your erroneous assumptions rather than the actual exit polling data to get the requirement of 90%.  Just the growth in the AA pop from 2000 to 2006 changes that to 83% of the vote, and it's not like the AA pop stopped growing in '06.

                     Black Votes if We'd Voted Like Other People Did:
                     Black Women Voting Like White Women::  47% of 6% of 10,325,615:  291,182 Yes (a reduction of only 86,816 votes for Proposition 8 from our hypothetical maximum of Black votes cast)
                     Black Men Voting Like White Men::  51% of 4% of 10,325,615: 210,643 Yes (an INCREASE, if you believe CNN's poll even though Black men were reduced to a pitiful "N/A", of 84,643 votes, almost cancelling out the change in Black women entirely)

                  Completely incorrect math.  I find it astounding that you can take the following numbers:

                  AAs: 70/30, 10%
                  AA women: 75/25, 6%
                  AA men: ?, 4%

                  And determine that having AA men vote 51% to 4% would lead to a net increase in prop 8 votes.  Did you not even do a basic logic check of your numbers?

                  0.7 * 0.1 = 0.75 * 0.06 + x * 0.04;
                  0.025 = 0.04 * x
                  x = 62.5%

                  Going from 62.5% to 51% is NOT going to increase prop 8 votes, no matter how you slice it.  Seriously, check your math, people!

                  For the actual change in totals:
                  10,325,615 * 0.06 = 619,537 AA women
                  10,325,615 * 0.04 = 413,025 AA men
                  Current AA women vote: 619,537 * 0.75 = 464,653
                  Current AA men vote: 413,025 * 0.625 = 258,140
                  Current AA total: 722,793
                  Revised AA women vote: 619,537 * 0.47 = 219,182
                  Revised AA men vote: 413,025 * 0.51 = 210,643
                  Revised AA total: 429,825
                  Net vote change: 292,968

                  So, no, they're not responsible on their own, for it's passage, but they're responsible for 3/5ths of the spread.  That's a tiny percentage of the CA population, as you repeatedly note, responsible for 3/5ths of the spread.

                  Now, I know you may not like these numbers.  I don't like them either.  But they're reality.  Cut it with the "polls must be wrong" nonsense and accept that we have a lot of work left to do in the AA community.

                  •  I want to anticipate the diarist's reply: (4+ / 0-)

                    She might object to:
                    You're forgetting that the top of the ticket was one Barack Hussein Obama, who black people turned out in droves to vote for by the staggering ratio of 20 to 1.  That's huge motivation.

                    She did acknowledge this argument, and tried to dismiss it by citing voter turn-out in heavily AA districts.  But the flaw with her defense is that her numbers are not broken down by race.  Overall turn-out may have been low, but in a county where AA's are still only 14% of the population, they could all vote and turn-out might still be low.

                    •  yeah, this is the one that bothered me the most (4+ / 0-)

                      Diarist said that blacks were 21% or whatever of East Palo Alto, then cited low total turnout for EPA as evidence for black turnout being low.  That proves absolutely nothing.  To me that would mostly be evidence that latino turnout in EPA was low.

                      All this wasted time learning and acquiring skills... And all along I should have just squinted to see Russia

                      by fizziks on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:33:05 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Many Latino Residents of My City (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        highacidity

                        Are still undocumented.  The percentage is shrinking, but it is still very very high compared to other cities.

                        The 11,000 registered voters (1/3 of the population, 1/2 of the adult population) are primarily Black, white and Pacific Islander.  Latinos make up less than 30% of the electorate here still, even as they are 65%+ of the population.

                  •  Tell Me (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    saintsaetia

                    How  many  GAY  People  voted  yes, like  the  GAY  Repuglicans?

                    •  If they polled it at all.. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Tonedevil

                      ... it was too small of a sample to register on the breakdown.

                      That said, there are gay Republicans.  I know one personally, and I've talked to others online.  They're rarely ever fond of the Republicans stances on gay rights, but they try to convince themselves that the Democrats aren't any better so that they can vote with a clear conscience on other issues that they care about, such as the "small government" myth, gun rights, taxes, and so forth.

                  •  A couple errors on my part (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Ibsu

                    First off, the revised AA womens vote should be 291,182, not 219,182.  Typo on my part that got carried forward.  Total recised YES votes, 501,825.

                    However, I also only considered the YES side; one less YES corresponds with one more NO.  That 292,968 vote change is a decrease in YES votes.  But that also corresponds with an equal increase in NO votes.  The AA vote would have gone from 722,793 YES, 309,768 NO to 501,825 YES, 530,736 NO.  This changes the AA share from +413025 to -28911, for a net difference in spread of 441,936.  That's actually close enough to possibly have the initiative fail.  If not, it was close.

                    So, it's actually worse than the above calcs suggest.

                  •  I early voted in Los Angeles County... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Tonedevil

                    You're forgetting that the top of the ticket was one Barack Hussein Obama, who black people turned out in droves to vote for by the staggering ratio of 20 to 1.  That's huge motivation.

                    I early voted in Norwalk this past weekend (the only early voting location in LA County) and I would estimate that, literally, at least 50% of the early voters at the time I was there were African American. Admittedly, I don't know how that compares to overall voter turnout.

                    I also overheard an young African American man on the phone next to me while I was waiting to vote, and heard him specifically say that he was voting no on 8. Not because he cared one bit about gay marriage (judging by the one sided conversation I was hearing) but because he didn't understand what the implications were, and decided to vote no by default. I wish more (of every race) had voted that way.

              •  while your facts are spot on (9+ / 0-)

                the attitude you display won't change a damn thing. This community must be engaged and educated, not shunned.

                •  Yes, though actually, the facts are not so solid (19+ / 0-)

                  Due to small subsample and cluster sampling, the MOE on the 70% number is over 10%, probably around 15%. That means as little as 55% of blacks voted yes.

                  And did you know it goes both ways? LGBT were the only population, other than over-65, to vote Obama less than Kerry nationwide according to exit polls. 7% less, as opposed to a nationwide average of about 3-4% more - that's a gap of 10%.

                  You can either use these numbers (on either side) to feed prejudice and division, or use them as a motivation to build bridges and alliances. Which do you think wins more battles?

                  Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                  by homunq on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:08:23 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And by that same logic as much as 85% [nt] (6+ / 0-)

                    President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                    by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:10:11 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Again: (12+ / 0-)

                      You can use the numbers to build division, or to end it. Which do you want to do?

                      (of course the MOE applies to the racist gay number too. And yes, I said racist: what other reason could explain a Kerry/McCain vote of that size? Again, a reason for African Americans to start building bridges from their side, so they can forge a winning alliance ... I remember something about a rainbow coalition, something about a flag, from last century sometime...)

                      Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                      by homunq on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:14:25 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  The black community is close minded and divisive (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        rf7777

                        all by itself when it comes to gay people. Why do you think Obama spoke so many times about the widespread and rampant problem?

                        As I've said before, homophobic blacks can go to hell.

                        President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                        by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:20:43 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  And take the rest of us with them? (11+ / 0-)

                          Looks like they've already done it. Congratulations, you got your wish. Are you happy now?

                          Or. We. Can. Build. Bridges.

                          I understand, you have experiences I probably can't imagine, and a lot of resentment. I'm not going to ask you to open your old wounds and reach out. Just stop waving them in our faces to stop us from doing it.

                          Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                          by homunq on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:33:46 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  What a dumb statement (3+ / 0-)

                          "the black community is close minded and divisive"
                          yet then you note that HOMOPHOBIC blacks can go to hell.

                          So who can go to hell.. the black community or homophobic blacks.  If it's the former, I guess you'er going to hell as well.

                          WIll Mccain answer the phone at 3am? depends on which house you call

                          by Ambboogie on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:29:23 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  70% of blacks voted yes on Prop 8. (0+ / 0-)

                            That's a super majority worthy of generalization if there ever was one....

                            President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                            by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:33:02 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So tell me (7+ / 0-)

                            what are you going to do after you are done with your "i hate my people" tantrum?

                            That's what I wanna know.  

                            To me it sounds like you were treated badly within the black community you know of.  

                            Fortunately, you don't have knowledge of the black community as a whole since you haven't met every black person in this country.

                            70% of blacks voting yes on Prop 8 is a large chunk of a MINORITY in the state.  I'm amazed that you're not showing as much hatred for the larger number of whites who voted Yes.

                            Black people trend more conservative on social issues, that's just a fact.  It's not a racial issue it's a conservatism-on-social-issues issue.

                            But you seem determined to hate black folks so by all means, continue if it is making you feel better and/or changing anything for the better.

                            WIll Mccain answer the phone at 3am? depends on which house you call

                            by Ambboogie on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:47:35 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  For those blacks who treat me with respect, I (0+ / 0-)

                            go on with my life and interact with them in a loving and friendly manner.

                            For those who don't, they can kiss my ass in every way possible.

                            President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                            by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:00:46 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Then talk about THOSE blacks.. (3+ / 0-)

                            and whites.. and hispanics, etc.

                            The way you type here is like black people are the only ones to blame.

                            I myself am married and I think you all should get to suffer just like I do. LOL

                            Gay folks should have the same legal rights as anyone else... I think legal marriage can be different than religious marriage.

                            Marriage as the Christian bible says is between a man and a woman.  But I see NO reason why 2 consenting gay folks can't have the same LEGAL rights as a married man and woman if they commit to each other.

                            and I'm a black female.

                            So when you say BLACKS this and BLACKS that, you speak based on your personal experiences, not necessarily on reality and how many of us in the black community feel.

                            You want fairness, then you should be fair.

                            WIll Mccain answer the phone at 3am? depends on which house you call

                            by Ambboogie on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:09:26 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The purpose of this diary was to show that blacks (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sam2300

                            were no more bigoted than any other group. That's clearly not the case.

                            Blacks ARE more bigoted toward gays than any other group. To those that aren't, great. To the super majority that are, they can piss off.

                            President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                            by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:14:08 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh but see, they already pissed off (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            highacidity, bonnettedbeauti

                            by voting against proposition 8.

                            So why don't you answer MY question of, when you finish your tantrum, what are you gonna do about it?

                            WIll Mccain answer the phone at 3am? depends on which house you call

                            by Ambboogie on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:15:37 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Continue giving money and efforts to overturn (0+ / 0-)

                            Prop 8. And continue calling out the rank disgusting hypocrisy of the black community for what it is.

                            President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                            by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:55:22 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You have valid points. (0+ / 0-)

                            Please don't misunderstand that I don't understand where your anger is coming from.

                            You did inspire me to blog about it on my own blog though:

                            http://ohellnawlblog.com/...

                            WIll Mccain answer the phone at 3am? depends on which house you call

                            by Ambboogie on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 10:08:22 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You may want to recheck your math (4+ / 0-)

                            if you're simply going to continue to make these blanket statements.

                            Until then, I would suggest you work through your anger outside the blogosphere, and come back when you're ready to join the rest of us--we have a lot of work to do. More divisiveness, name-calling, and hate is not going to solve anything.


                            I can't stress enough that we need to start at the door of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, if it was, in fact, they who primarily funded this initiative to begin with. Get their tax-exempt status revoked.

                            That's one area we can put our energy to better use, starting today.

                            Take back your media--take back your country

                            by o the umanity on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:50:45 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wait, so the 70% of blacks going to the polls (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            lighttheway

                            who voted Yes on Prop 8 requires rechecking the math?

                            LOL.

                            As for the Mormons, I find it absolutely hilarious that a religious group that is called a cult by so many other gay haters and founded the state of Utah because they were persecuted by the US government in the 1800s for their marriages would be the ones most vociferously pushing this.

                            It's absolutely pathetic.

                            President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                            by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:02:37 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Your repetition of this is becoming trollish (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            highacidity, lazybum, bonnettedbeauti

                            unless you have countered--statistically--this diary's apparent debunking of this 70% number:

                            Factually Unsupported Myth #1:  CNN’s 10% Black exit poll sample accurately reflects the actual distribution of voters on Proposition 8.

                            Each and every argument I’ve read since Proposition 8 passed that lays blame on Black people --- whether only like the worst of the haters or even primarily -- for the passage of Proposition 8 starts with CNN’s exit poll statistics about Proposition 8 at its foundation.  

                            The only argument I've seen you make is "I don't care what the numbers are". So I'd LOL right back at you, except this isn't funny. Stirring the shit up even further is not helping anyone WIN anything.

                            Take back your media--take back your country

                            by o the umanity on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:24:23 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  If you've actually read my comments then you (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sam2300

                            would have seen that I have said over and over and over and over again that the passage of Prop 8 is inconsequential to me when it comes to blacks. It is the fact that every other group voted 50-50 and blacks voted 70-30.

                            Even if Prop 8 failed I STILL be as pissed off about the level of gay hatred within the black community. Why? Because it's hypocritical.

                            Until you understand that fundamental argument, you'll continue to run around in circles when discussing this with me.

                            Again, I DO NOT CARE whether or not blacks were the ones who got Prop 8 over the 50% mark. I care that blacks voted for Prop 8 by a 70-30 margin.

                            Whether they were 100,000 strong or 1,000,000 strong is irrelevant to the percentages.

                            President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                            by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:57:54 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I've read them (3+ / 0-)

                            And I'm telling you that you're wrong, if your entire raison d'être is based on this "70-30" number that you keep throwing around. The diarist appears to have debunked that as a fact. Can you counter it, or are you just going to circular-argue all day?

                            Truly--it does not fucking matter at this point WHO voted for it. If you're reading ANYONE AT ALL in these diaries, then you would understand that fundamental argument.  

                            You would be well-served to channel your energy somewhere else right now, and do something to work toward fixing this crap--like going after LDS and the Catholic Church, and doing what it takes to expose this hypocrisy. It all appears to have started with them--a bunch of old white guys.

                            Right? Is that right or not?

                            So what are you doing about it besides trolling apparently-bad numbers repeatedly?

                            Take back your media--take back your country

                            by o the umanity on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 10:09:08 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The diarist made the argument that there (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sam2300

                            is no way blacks could have been the ones to have pushed this over the edge to passing. The diarist did NOT debunk the 70-30 passage because polling is by its very measure used to extrapolate to entire populations.

                            That is the point of polling, both proactively and retroactively. Other comments by Rei in this thread have pointed this out with the actual #s as well. Just read up the thread a little.

                            President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                            by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 10:11:49 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I thought you didn't care about "the numbers"? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            highacidity

                            Beyond that, you continue to miss and/or ignore the bigger point. I don't know whether it's on purpose, or just because you're too angry to think straight.

                            Look, if you want to wallow in anger and have a pity party all day, you're certainly entitled. But until you can show that you're doing something a little more constructive than that, nothing will be accomplished, at least not by you.

                            Nothing. To continue fighting hate with more hate is completely and utterly pointless at this juncture. It makes far more sense to channel that energy and go after the sponsors of this bullshit.

                            Hit them where it hurts the most: their bank accounts.

                            Take back your media--take back your country

                            by o the umanity on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 10:33:42 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I said that the passage of Prop 8 accorded to or (0+ / 0-)

                            not for Blacks was irrelevant. Even if the measure failed and blacks still voted 70-30 I'd still be saying the same things.

                            The black community has a lot of self-hating fucked up homophobes in it. And nothing to try and silence that fact in this and other threads has changed that reality.

                            President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                            by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 10:35:36 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't know you, (0+ / 0-)

                            but I love you.

                            Thanks, Yalin, for your views. I came a little late to this party.

                          •  70% of 240 Black People Polled (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            highacidity

                            You're worse than CNN in distorting small pieces of the truth.

                            And you're a self-hating African-American bigot.  You hate a race that you're a member of.  How do you reconcile the contempt you feel for your own race?

                            "Washington, DC: Where Corrupt Officials are discovered daily."

                            by The Truth on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 01:40:35 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  70-30 in California and 71-29 in Florida. (0+ / 0-)

                            Self hating? No. Hating the bigotry and hypocrisy of the black community?

                            You're damned right.

                            President Barack Obama - #44

                            by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:10:14 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  I want a more comprehensive study (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        highacidity, BoxerDave

                        Religion, church attendance and age are still the best predictors and probably should be the focus area, and I expect that the exit poll overestimated support based on polling on this issue in other states in 2004, but there are legitimate inquiries (political and sociological and, frankly, historical) into that number.  I'm not going to assume any number until there's a better estimate out there.

                        "We're half awake in a fake empire."

                        by Alec82 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 10:49:15 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  For 2 days you've been SYFPH'ing any discussion (0+ / 0-)

                    on this issue. You've even dropped donuts to stifle discussion.

                    And here you are, starting a narrative that gays are racists.

                    Congratulations.

                    •  Donuts? (0+ / 0-)

                      As I recall, you are the one who dropped more than one. I'd still be happy to remove it, if you explain what you meant by "your hurt is false" besides that I don't love my family.

                      My argument is based in as many facts as the other one. And I am using it to show that blame is a dead-end street.

                      Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                      by homunq on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:39:14 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Also, to be clear, I beg for discussion (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        highacidity

                        Things that should be allowed in such a discussion: negative analysis of individuals or other groups BASED ON ACTIONS OR WORDS. ie, "homophobic blacks" or "racist gays" or "African American churches" or "queers who make a bigger deal of the 6% blacks than 40% whites".

                        Things that should not be allowed: blanket statements. "blacks let me down", "gays are racist", "the fact that you disagree with me shows you are evil".

                        Does that sound like SYFPH?

                        Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                        by homunq on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:55:33 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Allowed, but gently discouraged: (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          highacidity

                          "We've been betrayed before. Why, just the other day, some other folks were...."

                          This will come up naturally, but I don't think it really helps the discussion at hand, so it is OK in my book to gently suggest that discussion of issues besides the direct LGBT/AA move elsewhere.

                          Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                          by homunq on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:13:37 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  Go for it (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        boriquasi

                        if you explain what you meant by "your hurt is false"

                        I challenge you to find IN ANY COMMENT I've ever made, that precise quote.

                        The fact is, you're lying.

                •  Shunned, maybe not but I can understand why (0+ / 0-)

                  He or She would feel this way. Unless you have been there you cannot understand this

                  Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give a man religion and he will starve to death praying for a fish.

                  by Goodbye Kitty on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:39:46 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Serious flaw in your logic (8+ / 0-)

                Your sig  is giving props to President elect Obama but you are bashing AAs for voting for Prop 8. Since the president elect is against the idea of gay marriage, you are basically saying that it's OK for Obama to be against gay marriage but somehow AA's in CA are judged by a different standard ? (For the record I'm against Prop 8) nonetheless there is a serious flaw in your thinking process. I would add that there is another anomaly  in the numbers in this now infamous exit poll.  If indeed there is a particular cultural bias against gays that is unique to AAs why then did the  exit polls from the equivalent ballot initiatives in Michigan and Ohio in 2004 show AAs  support for the gay marriage at or slightly above  the same levels as Whites ?

                •  Um, except that Obama opposed Prop 8 (12+ / 0-)

                  "Terror is nothing other than justice...; it is ... the general principle of democracy applied to our country's most urgent needs." M. Robespierre

                  by Bartimaeus Blue on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:43:20 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Few things (2+ / 0-)
                  1. Obama opposed prop 8
                  1. Obama has stated that he supports full legal rights for gay couples even if the word marriage is not used.

                  Maybe you should consider that bit of logic.

                  President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                  by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:14:27 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  The 2004 results are relevant. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Alec82

                  I don't remember any details, but if there was evidence that African Americans supported gay rights in that election, then that would be a better basis for rejecting the "blacks are homophobic" meme than the evidence provided in this diary.

                  Would love to see more specifics and analysis.

                  •  There wasn't (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    OJD, Yalin
                    AAs have consistently been the most anti-gay population by race in America for years.

                    http://www.sovo.com/...

                    "A survey for HRC in March 2004 showed fewer than one-third of black voters said gays should be allowed to marry.

                    Twenty percent of that survey's 600 respondents indicated they strongly believed that gays should be allowed to marry. Another 8 percent agreed that gays should be allowed to marry, but did not hold a strong position on the issue.

                    According to the survey, 50 percent of blacks strongly believed that gays should not be allowed to marry and another 11 percent agreed, albeit "not strongly."

                    Four years later, surveys show the numbers generally are unchanged."

                    No on Prop 8::Sometimes I get to hitch a ride on the Democratic Bus--they let me stand on the back bumper.

                    by steve04 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 12:24:24 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Recommended for the 2004 data (0+ / 0-)

                  That's my understanding as well.  And the reason I was shocked by the lopsided results of that exit poll.  That would have been akin to the results in Mississippi's 2004 vote, not what I would expect from any population (save religious conservatives and Republicans) in CA.

                  "We're half awake in a fake empire."

                  by Alec82 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 10:52:45 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  By your measure and by the map of voting patterns (4+ / 0-)

                it can be said with equal surety that

                "The white (and Asian, Latino, and AP/NA) community is filled with homophobic bigots."

                And with that homophobia, 8 was passed.  Without it, 8 would have failed.

                Your personal hurt and venom distorts the statistical truth.  I am sorry that it does.

                "Out of Many, One." This is the great promise of our nation.........and as ever, For droogie!

                by Uncle Moji on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:43:05 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  As I said later on in this thread, if the split (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  evanaj

                  were 50-50 as it was in other communities, that would've been one thing. The 70-30 split in the black community was clearly grossly distorted compared to other splits.

                  Not only that, but to see the tears of joy and "we've overcome!" statements come out of the same mouths of people who'd only a second later say "But not for those faggots cause my bible tells me so!" is what is wretching.

                  That is no distortion.

                  President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                  by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:13:38 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The statistical truth about the impact of AA (4+ / 0-)

                    voting on the outcome of Prop 8 is not disputable.  

                    Brother, we lost on Prop 8 because my community failed me as much as yours did you.  And because the white LGBTs' community failed them by the millions.

                    We can parse out whose betrayal is worse, but the truth is, you and I and everyone else who supported No on 8 were betrayed by those who believe civil rights should be determined by a majority vote and then voted to take away a fundamental civil right.  

                    That is no distortion.

                     

                    "Out of Many, One." This is the great promise of our nation.........and as ever, For droogie!

                    by Uncle Moji on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:57:28 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  As I've said before, I don't care whether or not (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Uncle Moji, smellybeast

                      it was blacks who pushed Prop 8 over the line to passage. What I care about is the juxtaposed hypocrisy of seeing those same people crying about how blacks have finally made it voting with the next breath to keep another minority from full and equal rights.

                      As a black gay man, my anger toward my so-called community is even greater.

                      President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                      by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:04:46 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  I have seen that (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                pacific city, highacidity

                but that isn't blacks. It's a religious thing and we can't blame all blacks for prop 8 passing. It passed before in CA and was overturned.

                MY bf is black and I know what you are talking about, I think people need to be educated though and we need to be united. We can't be united by pointing fingers at whole groups of people, that puts us backwards.

                They need to stop religious groups from putting propositions like this up to vote for, and I don't think people are exactly educated enough about this either. MY bf used to be very anti-gay and now he has become more tolerant after I started dating him. He is even friends with a gay guy now and says his friends personal life is none of his business.

                Also, many blacks might have a problem with gay marriage but that doesn't mean they would vote to have it banned.

                They snuck these proposition in at a time when there was an extremely important presidential election going on and not enough attention was given to them because of that.

            •  Uprated for inappropriate and retaliatory H/R (4+ / 0-)

              We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

              by twigg on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:29:41 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  If you are not from this background, you have no (0+ / 0-)

              Right to criticize the poster's statements. I know may people who have had to escape the hard-core black christian community.

              Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give a man religion and he will starve to death praying for a fish.

              by Goodbye Kitty on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:37:34 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Seconded (0+ / 0-)

              more hate is pointless at this juncture. Kindly use your energies to work to change this crap. We all know it's wrong.

              Take back your media--take back your country

              by o the umanity on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:43:07 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  kiss my ass? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Yalin

              Yalin represents himself as speaking from personal experience. That, it seems to me, would trump any particular diary, no matter how well researched, at least so far as Yalin is concerned.

              What is your personal experience? Would you care to share it?

            •  I'm a black gay man speaking nothing but the (11+ / 0-)

              truth. If that makes me an ass, it makes me an ass.

              Deal with it.

              President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

              by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:14:38 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  what about the position as stated in this diary? (4+ / 0-)

                If you read this at all, you have to come to the conclusion that black populations couldn't have the impact you claim. Where are you getting the super black support for Prop. 8? Why not blame straight white people?

                •  As I said below, swaying the vote is an (13+ / 0-)

                  inconsequential argument as far as I'm concerned.

                  70% voting for Prop 8 is bad enough in and of itself.

                  If it were closer to the 50-50 split of the other groups, then it wouldn't make things nearly as bad. The fact that it was 20pts worse?

                  Yea, that's bad. And quite frankly not surprising given the homophobic attitudes of the black community.

                  President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                  by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:38:48 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  where do you get the 70% number? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    taylormattd

                    maybe I missed a link to it....

                    Has a similar stat been done for Latino populations?

                    •  It came from the CNN exit polling. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      xsonogall

                      All other groups were around 48-55% support for Prop 8. Blacks hit 70%.

                      President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                      by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:23:26 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Why do we trust exit polling now? (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        sarahnity, lazybum, little liberal

                        CNN sucks, truly it does.

                        Exit polling's reputation has gotten so bad the last two elections that this time around nobody even paid any attention to them anymore.

                        I know I know, you have more experience with your family, etc.

                        I'm just saying.  Exit polling + CNN = Not that credible to me.  For all we know, CNN's lame attempts to "balance" coverage gives them no conscience when trying to drive a wedge between these minority groups.

                      •  didn't 2004 teach anything? (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        lazybum, alliebear, loki99

                        and where were those taken?

                        Say you have a population of 100 people

                        In this fictional county, we average the percentages of the counties with the highest black populations and get roughly 8.5% (the actual number statewide is less, so we're going with an inflated number)

                        Let's give a third to the Latino Community for roughly 33%, Asians 14.5%, Whites 44%.

                        Now assuming all of the various populations voted, how could you come to the conclusion that Black people passed Prop. 8?

                        I don't know about homophobia in the Black community. I suppose it's roughly on par with that of other populations....I know more about the Latino population and could say with more evidence that they are more culturally conservative than other populations. Don't know for sure that that is true, it's just anecdotal. Clearly, you had a bad experience and I think that's sad. But the numbers just don't bear out your position as to why Prop. 8 passed. Doesn't mean you didn't have a bad experience, just means you are drawing the wrong conclusion. Even if you accept that proportionally more black people voted for Prop. 8 than against it, the numbers show they didn't have a large effect.

                        In my opinion, the LGBT population is going to continue to lose these types of ballot initiatives until they are able to convince people in general to support marriage equality. There are more PEOPLE in the US against gay marriage than are for it.

                •  can we stop blaming. period. (6+ / 0-)

                  hurt feelings are understandable - let's give everyone a little space to mend their wounds.  and then work towards fixing what's broken.

                  regardless of any vote percentage or population segment stats - one way or the other - it seems pretty apparent that there is a communication breakdown between the gay and black communities (again, not that they're inherently separate).  so work needs to be done to bring us closer together - we share a lot of common concerns and should be partners in repairing america for all minorities.

                  when an injury first happens people respond with despair and anger and fear - it's common and human - we all get a little window here to heal, but then we have to get RIGHT BACK to doing the work of progressives.  gay, straight, bi, transgendered, black, white, asian, latino, native american, arab, jew, christian, muslim, buddhist, athiest, and agnostics alike - we are in this thing together people.

                  i understand that all families fight - and the progressive movemet is a family - but name calling and finger pointing don't fix anything.  let's fix this thing and move forward together.  we're much more effective helping each other out of these ditches than we are squabbling about whose fault it is that we're in the darn thing.

                  "I Must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration."

                  by MagnusRex on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:07:31 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  I'm a black gay man (7+ / 0-)

                And I think your rhetoric is hateful, divisive, and foul.

                It serves no constructive purpose.

                Brilliantly blessed are those who walk with courage through the depths of the own fear, for they will Love from the bottom of their heart.

                by Craig Hickman on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:21:14 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hateful? Please point it out. Divisive? (0+ / 0-)

                  Just returning it in kind. Foul? By all means, please point it out.

                  Until people start calling the overwhelming black homophobia for what it is, and treating it with the language that it deserves, there will be no movement forward.

                  Because everyone will walk on egg shells as they've done and continue to do.

                  A black gay hater deserves no less anger and scrutiny than a mormon gay hater or an evangelical gay hater or a white gay hater.

                  President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                  by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 10:05:30 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  And I'm a Black woman who has something to say (7+ / 0-)

                Let's start with some facts. I'm 55, live in NC, I'm straight and I AM JUST AS PISSED OFF AND DISGUSTED ABOUT THIS BS AS YOU ARE BUT I can not believe there are so call progressives lumping me and many Blacks who feel the way I do in the same group as people who are homophobic and closed minded. Yalin is correct, too many people in the Black community are homophobic, not ALL but too many. That's a sad reality but taking your frustration out on all of us is just as ignorant and close minded as the homophobic fools that are running around on this planet. It will not help you win friends and influence people or more importantly right the wrong that has been forced on you. Vent, throw things, leave out the name calling and then get pissed, over it, back to work and tell us want you need us to do. Now that's for all of you that feel like Yalin and decided to call me an azz hole (although not personally but I'm just sayin') and a few other choice names I can live with and forgive, even though I didn't deserve them:)

                HOWEVER....I have a bigger problem....any White person that decided to label me and call me a n%#%@... eff you and the horse you rode in on and I mean that with every fiber of my being. No one and I mean no one SUDDENLY becomes racist so that crap didn't spring up out of the blue it was always there. You do not deserve my respect or sympathy, only my contempt. You are not only being a racist jerk but a liar, phony and bull sht artist. You fooled others and fooled yourself but the truth  of who you are finally came out. It's time to deal with the BS about yourself before you start telling "daddy" how you feel about me and the Black  brothers and sister who would have proudly stood by your side and fought for your rights up and until you showed your true colors and arse.

                I am thoroughly disgusted by the racial overtones of this thread but being called a n$%#$#@ went over the line and only fueled animosity and hatred. You were on the wrong side of the campaign and if I could take all your hard work, time, moeny and vote and cram it up your racist behind I would do so in a heart beat. People of your ilk do NOT belong here AND that goes out to anyone be they Black, White, Straight or gay. Just goes to show that ANYONE can be a racist, no matter their color, race, creed, religion, non religion or sexual orientation.

                Look in the mirror before throwing stones because you're no better than the ignorant homophobes that denied you your rights. Sometimes, what you put out in the Universe, comes back ten fold.  

                "We are the change we've been waiting for."

                by JupiterIslandGirl on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 10:28:07 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  What's sad is that so many in the black community (0+ / 0-)

                  have such a huge issue with the word nigger but will spam faggot all over the world.

                  My issue, JuperIslandGirl, is that I'm just tired of seeing the double standard among blacks. That and that alone is why I'm saying the things I'm saying.

                  After 31 years of life on this earth, I'm tired of seeing the rank hypocrisy and hatred that blacks have toward gays.

                  I simply refuse to walk on eggshells about the subject anymore.

                  That said, as I've said before in this thread, if you believe in full equality for gays and lesbians, then I'd welcome you among my friends. Otherwise not.

                  President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                  by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 10:47:05 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I understand (0+ / 0-)

                    but you should also understand you  risk alienating those that want to help when you let your emotions get too out of control.

                    I can't argue about the hypocrisy in the Black community I've been around a long time and I'm a witness (and live in the south....rolling eyes) but Yalin you can't bring yourself down to their level. You can't give them that much power over you.  LOL, I've got a temper from hell so I have some nerve lecturing you but it's because that temper has gotten me into more trouble than it's worth that I speak up. It's frustrating it hurts and it's beyond eff'd up but don't give up and don't let the other side win by giving in to the dark side.

                    Give yourself time to work through this in the most positive way you can think of and after that, let's get to work. Don't have any money but now I suddenly find myself with a lot of time on my hands:)

                    "We are the change we've been waiting for."

                    by JupiterIslandGirl on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 03:31:52 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I have no beef with the 30% that want to help. (0+ / 0-)

                      Those that help themselves and show tolerance and acceptance for others will get a helping hand from me. As I've said.

                      It's the remaining 70% that can go to hell. Seriously, I've had inklings to try and help those people. But they can rot now for all I care.

                      President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                      by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 03:52:30 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Again (0+ / 0-)

                        I understand but for a sec you were not making any distinctions so the good were mixed in with the bad and that's where my issue came in. Except for the N word which I do not tolerate or accept from anyone. Especially someone who can go from being supposedly tolerate to racist in 60 secs flat. awww hell no!

                        Are there any plans to organize some type of campaign that could help the lawsuit along or is this a wait and see type situation?

                        "We are the change we've been waiting for."

                        by JupiterIslandGirl on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 04:14:19 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                •  That is what's so disturbing about this black (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Lexicon

                  anger. All this hating the entire black race stuff. With all the racism our community has suffered, I still don't know any but a few extremist blacks who'd even during Segregation go about condeming the white race universally, except for a few radicals. Even in the south. Especially in what ammounts to a virtual 'room' full of black supporters.

                  But here we are, on Daily Kos, where probably ever black poster supports gay rights, and its non-stop "Your evil race, your evil race!"

                  So that's what a republican looks like in person? Wow. I've seen pictures, but never imagined the smell.

                  by Dungeon Dwelling Dragon on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 03:37:24 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Sorry. Ad hominem gets a donut. (0+ / 0-)

              "Terror is nothing other than justice...; it is ... the general principle of democracy applied to our country's most urgent needs." M. Robespierre

              by Bartimaeus Blue on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:44:21 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  My disgust with people who just DO NOT (15+ / 0-)

            get it, knows no bounds. How in the world are we ever and I mean ever going to get to the place we ALL want to be if we spend all our time pointing fingers at one another. We have a chance, a REAL chance to turn this country around. We have a president who is, in case you haven't noticed driven by SOCIAL JUSTICE. This is not a time to blame it  is a time to start educating, bringing into the fold and getting us all on the same page moving forward.

            •  The irony was apparently lost on black people who (19+ / 0-)

              cried about being able to "overcome" while voting overwhelmingly to support a bigotry-driven constitutional amendment.

              That is where my disgust lies. And since I experienced this first hand as a black gay man growing up in the community, my disgust with those bastards is even worse.

              President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

              by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:16:10 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't believe that for a second (6+ / 0-)

                Not that it doesn't exist, but that so many would vote for bigotry it could sway the vote. THere are plenty of others who should have known better and apparently didn't, Catholics for instance. We don't hear about them being a problem, or other people of faith. It isn't one group, it is ALL the Obama supporters who still don't get it.

                •  Swaying the vote or not is inconsequential as far (5+ / 0-)

                  as I'm concerned. That many voting for Prop 8 is bad enough in and of itself.

                  If it were closer to the 50-50 split of the other groups, then it wouldn't make things nearly as bad. The fact that it was 20pts worse?

                  Yea, that's bad.

                  President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                  by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:37:25 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You're going on the assumption that the exit poll (11+ / 0-)

                    was accurate. Obviously there is alot of anger and bitterness from your past.

                    •  The exit poll only backs up the widespread (5+ / 0-)

                      problem of homophobia in the black community. If it weren't so bad, why would Obama have spoken about the problem so many times during his run for the presidency?

                      And there is certainly a lot of anger and bitterness toward the black community when it comes to gay people on my part. What in my statements in this thread didn't get that fact across clearly enough? heh.

                      President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                      by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:48:28 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  I've got to back up Yalin here (30+ / 0-)

                      On a couple of grounds:

                      1. He is saying it does not matter whether it swung the vote or note, it is the bigotry the exit polling represents.
                      1. Whether the exit polling is accurate or not, it reflects on a lived experience that is painful.
                      1. If a community does in fact have a bias, even if not an overwhelming one, it is not racist to call that out, no matter who you are.  We did not get to this point withour conflict.

                      I generally agree that the tone is not helpful, but the tone of the diary is also very, very aggressive, and definitely inflammitory, even if the facts are good.

                      Women: McCain would love to get you behind the curtain in the voting booth, just don't expect him to call you tomorrow.

                      by nwgates on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:58:29 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Don't agree with you (12+ / 0-)

                        Here's why:

                        There have been statements made over the course of the last few days that place the blame for the passage of 8 squarely on the AA community.  This is not supported by the facts.  It may feel true, for Yalin or for whomever, but feeling it is true doesn't make it true.  The diarist is reasonably frustrated with the number of false statements made (many based on an unscientific CNN poll) that are simply at odds with the facts.

                        What's an absolute belief about a minority group that is defied by fact?  Bigotry.

                        The truth is, as far as I can see it, homophobia exists as a voting majority in all racial communities.  And there are more white people voting than others.  If you are white, you need to be working on creating relationships with your own community to overcome homophobia.  Same for all other racial groups (including my own Asian American community).  

                        Yalin has is own truthful experience.  I don't doubt or disagree with his anger.  But his extrapolation of personal experience to support any conclusion that blames all African Americans (and honestly, that has been the tone at DK for more than a few, rather than bigots in all racial communities) for the passage of 8 is simply not statistically supportable. I can empathize with him personally without supporting his misuse of fact.

                        I, personally, find blame counterproductive, except as an indicator of what work needs to be done.  

                        Regards.

                        "Out of Many, One." This is the great promise of our nation.........and as ever, For droogie!

                        by Uncle Moji on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:11:40 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Bigots can always find statistics to support (8+ / 0-)

                        their bigotry. Yalin is a bigot, plain and simple.

                        He may be black, but he clearly does not consider himself part of the black community.

                        Let's put this another way: suppose the percentages of black voters were similar to other races, would Yalin then proclaim that the black community is no more bigoted than any other?  Probably not, because he's already decided from his past experiences that the black community as a whole is homophobic, and will now only accept and assimilate data that confirms his beliefs.

                        Let's look at this another way. Racists have long concluded that black people are more prone to criminal behavior. Whether this belief comes from their parents, the media, or some traumatic experiences, it was not initially based on any data.  So they then seek out data that confirms the preconceived beliefs. They find data that shows that black populations in our prison system are disproportionally higher than the gen pop. This "proves" that black people are more prone to criminal behavior.

                        What it fails to account for is that black people, specifically black people living in poverty, have significantly less access to decent legal representation than white people. It also fails to consider that our justice system is designed to hand out harsher punishments for the kind of crime black criminals are more likely to engage in (drug dealing-crack/pcp/heroin, petty theft and robbery) than the kind white criminals typically engage in (drug dealing-coke/meth/hallucinogens, fraud/scams, and white-collar theft).  In many cases, in fact, much of the offensive behavior white criminals engage in is not technically illegal, with their junk bonds and ponzi schemes, which usually leave each of their victims with thousands of dollars in damages.

                        So in this case as well, we may see evidence beneath the surface of this data that black people  as a community, are not as homophobic as this data might suggest.

                        In any event, perhaps Yalin should consider that 1 in 3 black people voted against this bill. For someone as concretely convinced of the deep seeded homophobia in the black community, perhaps this evidence should be interpreted as a positive step, and if everyone can remain calm while continuing the fight for equality, we could see the number of people opposed to equality continue to decline.

                        "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin, R.I.P. (1937-2008)

                        by Alfonso Nevarez on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:01:06 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Actually, blacks voting closer to ALL of the (0+ / 0-)

                          other groups would've been progress in my mind. The fact that 70% of blacks who voted decided to vote for Prop 8 when it was a 50-50 split everywhere else speaks volumes about the state of bigotry in the black community.

                          But of course I'm a bigot for pointing that out.

                          Please....

                          President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                          by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:09:23 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  There was also polling in Florida.. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      OJD, Yalin

                      and it shows much the same thing. I think it gets back to the religionists who pushed these props and it is pretty sad to see the ludicrous claim that their passage was somehow "about saving the black family." What in hell does denying gays any recognition of their relationships whatsoever do to save families of any color?

              •  So are you going to scrub the black off you (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                little liberal, sethtriggs

                now?

                since you're so disgusted.

                WIll Mccain answer the phone at 3am? depends on which house you call

                by Ambboogie on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:31:58 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Why don't you go to hell (5+ / 0-)

            you moran! The gay community utterly failed to counter this proposition  adequately and now you are looking for scapegoats. All you have to do is look inside the gay community for scapegoats. I fully support all human rights but I will not stand for your bullshit scapegoating. You just sound racist. Enough said.

          •  We'll have to take your word that you're (13+ / 0-)

            a gay black man, this being the internet and all. And considering the depths of deceit the religiously brainwashed, blinded, and morally bankrupt cultish freaks will sink to in order to do GOD's work for him having decided for GOD what that work is (defending the definition of marriage apparently).

            That being said and taking you on your word, it's a shame that you come here and deride the entire black community much the way I've heard many a racist. Often with regard to blacks not being able to do the work white people can, as in leading the country.

            Fine if you want to turn your back on the community you feel has done you such harm, but you do your self, that community and your race a great disservice when you negatively generalize to the extent that you do and post it here for all to see and ponder.

            Now, having read your comments and accepted them, if I meet you on the street, will the first thing I think be "Here's a black man, probably one of those anti-prop 8-voting bigots"? Of course not, but you're helping to lay the groundwork of that kind of generalized negative assumption.

            You, being a gay black man, should know better the harm of generalized bigotry.

            Remember this has more to do with the distorted and misconceived interpretation of religion and the brainwashing effect religious leaders who press upon their followers (of any ethnicity) their warped interpretation of the bible and what they arrogantly assume to be the will of GOD. And to no lesser an extent, the ill effects of our government's inability to reach out and better educate those in our poorest communities.

            This goes a lot deeper then you and the mistreatment you presume is unique to gay black men. Reach out and talk to other gay people and see how they've been treated.

            McCain, Republican Party, Palin = Captain, Sinking Ship, Anchor.

            by Pescadero Bill on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:40:09 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I guess Obama's a racist too since he called out (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bonsai superstar

              the ENTIRE black community for its rampant homophobia many times in the past.

              President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

              by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:24:52 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  He challenged the community. (6+ / 0-)

                He did not deride it.

                McCain, Republican Party, Palin = Captain, Sinking Ship, Anchor.

                by Pescadero Bill on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:37:00 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  So that difference makes me a racist eh? (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  itsbenj, bonsai superstar

                  LOL.

                  President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                  by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:43:38 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No, the shit you're saying (8+ / 0-)

                    makes you sound like any other racist on the street.  Obama understands the need to build bridges, not set them ablaze in anger like you.

                    •  Let me know precisely what I've said that's (0+ / 0-)

                      racist

                      President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                      by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:51:47 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  How's (4+ / 0-)

                        The black community and its homophobic tendencies can go to hell for all I care.

                        Or..

                        I blame black people as a black person.

                        Though you still haven't convinced me (not that you really have to) you are actually a black person and not someone from the Mormon sect sent here to sew devision in the Dem community. Would make perfect sense as part of their overall campaign.

                        They have proven themselves a creatively deceitful bunch those Mormons. GOD would be proud - not.

                        McCain, Republican Party, Palin = Captain, Sinking Ship, Anchor.

                        by Pescadero Bill on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:12:38 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Pointing out the homophobic tendencies (0+ / 0-)

                          of the black community, even AFTER they voted 70-30 in favor of Prop 8, is racism?????

                          Laughing
                          My
                          Fucking
                          Ass
                          Off

                          President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                          by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:21:42 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Oh and btw, perhaps you should look at my (0+ / 0-)

                          diary history. I've spoken many many times about being a black gay man. Try that before spouting off......

                          President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                          by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:29:51 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I have and it's impressive. (0+ / 0-)

                            But the Mormon's are on a strategic path that no less then Thom Hartman has noticed and suspects is an attempt to invent a new wedge issue that brings major religions together around gay marriage in an effort to wrest control of the nation from the anti god-fearing liberals.

                            That strategy I have no doubt is multifaceted and will no doubt involve, if it didn't already, the infiltration of communities such as Daily Kos to instigate and spread devision. Your comments just happen to fit that bill.

                            I've already heard too many well informed and practiced "commenters" calling in to progressive talk radio shows trying defend and promote the yes on 8 logic. These people seem way too skilled at debating and pulling so called facts into their arguments to be just some schmo calling to defend their votes.

                            There is an effort underway to cheat us all from various rights and freedoms. We better stand united to fight it or we'll fall completely.

                            It has to be about educating the ignorant. About defeating the prejudice of religious bigotry and the dangerous ignorance of those unwilling to think beyond what their pastor/priest/minister tell them to think. The Mormons and the evangelicals are the real threat here. Let's direct our energy at them and their hatred.

                            That's what I'm trying to get through to you.

                            McCain, Republican Party, Palin = Captain, Sinking Ship, Anchor.

                            by Pescadero Bill on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 10:56:02 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

              •  I don't recall Obama calling out (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Deoliver47, alliebear, sethtriggs

                "the ENTIRE black community" for its rampant homophobia many times in the past. Do you have a link?  It's not his rhetorical style ("ENTIRE black community")because it's not his personal or worship experience - Trinity United, like all UCC churches, is an open and affirming place of worship for LGBTs.  He understands, as you do, the challenges of homophobia in the AA community, but it's not his rhetorical style to make a blanket claim as you do here, or as you attribute to him.  

                Obama's great strength is his willingness to address the issue of equity to all groups and calling out all groups for the divisive thinking that separates us into small groups at odds with each other.  We fight for a small slice of the pie, and some of us are made to do without it.  But, as I recollect, he's talked about sharing the pie.  "Everybody likes pie."

                "Out of Many, One." This is the great promise of our nation.........and as ever, For droogie!

                by Uncle Moji on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:51:43 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Here's the most recent, widely publicized (0+ / 0-)

                  President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                  by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:52:57 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  What a great speech, but I believe (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    sethtriggs

                    you fundamentally misread his words.  His speech was a call to empathy and reconciliation.  Not a new theme for Obama, it is what his 2004 DNC speech was about, it is what all his speeches are fundamentally about.  

                    He is able to recognize the flaws, the bigotry, and the challenges within all communities without turning to blame or bitterness, but to empathy and reconciliation.  This is what he asks of us, of you and me as well.  If we remain held by anger and bitterness and if we wallow in recrimination and hurt, nothing will change.

                    Every day, our politics fuels and exploits this kind of division across all races and regions; across gender and party. It is played out...with charges and counter-charges that served to obscure the issues instead of illuminating the critical choices we face as a nation.

                    So let us say that on this day of all days, each of us carries with us the task of changing our hearts and minds. The division, the stereotypes, the scape-goating, the ease with which we blame our plight on others – all of this distracts us from the common challenges we face – war and poverty; injustice and inequality. We can no longer afford to build ourselves up by tearing someone else down. We can no longer afford to traffic in lies or fear or hate. It is the poison that we must purge from our politics; the wall that we must tear down before the hour grows too late.

                    Because if Dr. King could love his jailor; if he could call on the faithful who once sat where you do to forgive those who set dogs and fire hoses upon them, then surely we can look past what divides us in our time, and bind up our wounds, and erase the empathy deficit that exists in our hearts.

                    Brothers and sisters, we cannot walk alone.
                    In the struggle for peace and justice, we cannot walk alone.
                    In the struggle for opportunity and equality, we cannot walk alone
                    In the struggle to heal this nation and repair this world, we cannot walk alone.

                    I see Obama's words as a call to the struggle for peace and justice, for opportunity and equality, a call to do more, to work harder, to be more empathetic (even to those whose views I oppose), to heal, to educate, to never give up.  

                    I haven't given up on hoping on white folks because of centuries of institutionalized racism, I won't give up on any other group (even LDS) because of homophobia.  The passage of 8 just proves that what we've been doing to make our case for marriage equity hasn't been effective.  So, we begin anew.

                    We lost a battle.  We have not lost the war.  I don't give up that easily.

                    "Out of Many, One." This is the great promise of our nation.........and as ever, For droogie!

                    by Uncle Moji on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:53:40 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

          •  why don't you just (0+ / 0-)

            write a blackface diary and be done with it?

            John McCain, 100 years in Iraq "fine with me"

            by taylormattd on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:50:11 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  That's smart..respond with hate to hate. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            alliebear

            genius.

            WIll Mccain answer the phone at 3am? depends on which house you call

            by Ambboogie on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:27:17 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  When someone votes to take your rights away (0+ / 0-)

              come back and talk about how forgiving you feel.

              President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

              by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:44:27 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  They did. I'm black. (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Lexicon, lazybum, Deoliver47, alliebear

                and no one asked you for forgiveness.

                but your anger is in many ways, illogical and looking like a tantrum.

                WIll Mccain answer the phone at 3am? depends on which house you call

                by Ambboogie on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:49:54 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  When did someone vote to take your right away? (0+ / 0-)

                  And please, by all means, point out the "un-logic" of my statements.

                  President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                  by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:54:29 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  when did it become (0+ / 0-)

                    RIGHT instead of RIGHTS

                    since YOU'RE the angry one, please list all of the RIGHTS that have been voted away for black gay males.

                    .. and the majority of your statements are illogical.  Whenever you paint a broad brush on a whole group and garner anger out of the picture you've painted, it's quite illogical.

                    WIll Mccain answer the phone at 3am? depends on which house you call

                    by Ambboogie on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:56:28 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  First, I'm still waiting for you to point out (0+ / 0-)

                      when someone voted to take your right to marry away.

                      Second, I'm waiting for you to point out which statements have been illogical.

                      President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                      by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:11:31 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Oh, now you want to specify RIGHTS (0+ / 0-)

                        so it's not RIGHTS plural it's ONE right

                        and it's a SPECIFIC right, that of taking a right to marry away.

                        NOW that you have decided to be specific instead of GENERAL, which you are basing your whole argument on GENERALITIES, I can respond to you SPECIFICALLY.

                        No one took my right to marry away.  How bout you continue upon the vein of being specific, i.e. not blaming the WHOLE black community, but those who have disrespected you SPECIFICALLY.

                        Interesting concept, eh?

                        WIll Mccain answer the phone at 3am? depends on which house you call

                        by Ambboogie on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:13:45 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  What the hell has this thread been about?? (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          bonsai superstar

                          GAY MARRIAGE!

                          So you tell me, when has someone voted to take your right to marry away? Or better still, when has someone voted to take your right away, period?

                          And yes, I want specifics. You make a charge, you better back it up. Otherwise, SYFPH.

                          President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                          by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:22:57 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm responding to YOUR response to this diary (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            lazybum

                            not the diary itself, which you may want to read through and then you'll have a better idea of the reality of the situation.

                            You're the one who charged black folks were the cause of all your anger.. and have yet to back it up while throwing a tantrum.

                            Re-read my last comment and I answered your question.

                            This isn't going to be a do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do, buddy.

                            Looks like I'm not SMFPH.  You're welcome to throw another tantrum about that. :)

                            WIll Mccain answer the phone at 3am? depends on which house you call

                            by Ambboogie on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:36:43 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I see you've still not backed up any of your (0+ / 0-)

                            assertions with quotes and other facts. Not surprising.

                            President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                            by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 10:09:30 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

          •  care to justify your retraliatory HYDRATE here? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PaintyKat

            _______________

            it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

            -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

            by dadanation on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:00:37 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  You can't out the black community for this (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sethtriggs

            please stop. We need to be uniting against this bull shit.

            •  Having experienced the homophobic wrath (0+ / 0-)

              of the black community at large in this, I have every right to air the dirty laundry.

              The blacks I grew up with in a very VERY large pentecostal community spoke volumes.

              Black homophobia, absentee fathers, "you're acting white" attitudes of self-hatred, all those are enormous problems within the black community.

              I just don't give two craps anymore about airing the dirty laundry. If you're honest about it, you know as well as I do that blacks can be some self-hating fucked up people.

              The fact that so many of our community turn their hatred against another minority is what is despicable.

              And that's another reason why I speak out about it, because I know that as a black man my words carry more weight than if someone else who didn't have this skin tone said it.

              President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

              by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 11:12:40 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  HR'd, because this: (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lexicon, sethtriggs

            I help those who choose to help themselves

            in this context, coming even from you, is nothing better than "Black people are lazy," dressed up in a fancy tuxedo.

            You're reacting exactly the way the wingnuts would most hope for you to react; you're even using their talking points.

            Prog

            "No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream." --MLK

            by Progressive Witness on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 11:13:13 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wait, so the widespread experiences of being (0+ / 0-)

              labeled "acting white" because of trying to succeed wasn't real?

              Why don't you google that phrase and see what you find. Blacks talk about this reality all the time in our community. What blacks DON'T like to see happen, however, is others talk about that reality.

              That's why so many got pissed off at people like Bill Cosby who aired that dirty laundry.

              You want to HR me for that, fine. But the truth is the truth.

              President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

              by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 11:17:27 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Barking up the wrong tree. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                alliebear

                Living in Indian Country, I've seen the exact same thing all my life, Native-against-Native.  There are plenty of people who think my Dad "isn't really Indian" because he has a Ph.D.

                But that would never, ever, make me turn my back on the Indian community, or make me parrot White racists' talking points about how Indians aren't able or willing to pull themselves up.

                Someone much wiser than me once told me, "we're all wounded, but it's up to each of us whether to be a wounded wounder, or a wounded healer."

                Your call.

                Prog

                "No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream." --MLK

                by Progressive Witness on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 11:28:02 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  There was nothing in the white racist repertoire (0+ / 0-)

                  that created the "acting white" psychology of failure in the black community.

                  That reverse racism that anyone trying to succeed and excel in anything other than athletics was trying to be uppity, bigger than their britches, and acting as if they're better than any and every one else.

                  No, that was caused by blacks against blacks. So those people that engage in that kind of behavior can fuck themselves.

                  You can HR this comment too if you desire. I just don't give a crap anymore.

                  President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                  by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 11:37:45 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm not going to waste an HR. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Lexicon, sethtriggs

                    I already made my point with the first one.

                    But if you think the "acting White" wedge, be it "Oreos" or "Apples," isn't actively encouraged and fostered by racist Whites to keep us divided instead of united, then you haven't been paying attention as closely as you may think you have.  There's a whole undercurrent of thinking that "he/she's as good as White!" is actually a compliment.  Being mixed-race but looking entirely pink, over the years I've had the dubious privilege of hearing what some Whites will say when they think no "others" are around.

                    Prog

                    "No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream." --MLK

                    by Progressive Witness on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 11:58:28 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You made no point other than to try and squelch (0+ / 0-)

                      dissent. I don't care about airing the "dirty laundry" anymore.

                      If that ruffles feathers, so be it.

                      President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                      by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 12:15:19 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  For a poor, squelched dissenter... (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        sethtriggs

                        ...you sure do have a lot of people engaging you in debate.

                        Just sayin'.  The drama doesn't become you.

                        Prog

                        "No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream." --MLK

                        by Progressive Witness on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 12:56:10 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I didn't say you or anyone else HRing squelched. (0+ / 0-)

                          I said that was an attempt. Big difference.

                          And sorry that being pissed off about the rights of gays and lesbians like myself being stripped away by majority mob rule causes drama.

                          /rolls eyes

                          President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                          by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 01:12:32 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  No, *that* drama is justified. (0+ / 0-)

                            Your personal drama about how oppressed you are by being HR'd on a political blog, not so much.

                            "No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream." --MLK

                            by Progressive Witness on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 02:43:42 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Now who's the one blowing that out of proportion. (0+ / 0-)

                            Certainly not me.

                            Pointing out the fact that HRs are used to squelch dissent and bully is nothing but a statement of fact. Sorry that statement of fact ruffled your feathers so much. LOL.

                            President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

                            by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 03:41:10 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

          •  you are so passionate on laying this (0+ / 0-)

            on the doorstep of the eternal scapegoats for whatever goes wrong here in america---"black people". but how about shannika's point that it is statistically impossible for the black vote to have tilted the results?

            i bet you'll tell me that you have earned the right to calumniate black people because you have been there and been one of them....well, i am black too, and i won't stand for you mislabelling me!

            •  As I've said repeatedly in this thread, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              atheistben

              I don't give two craps whether or not the black vote tilted Prop 8 into passing. I care that while every other group was 50-50, roughly, the black community was, HYPOCRITICALLY, crying tears of joy at "overcoming" centuries of oppression and hatred of minorities while simultaneously voting, OVERWHELMINGLY SO, to enact that very same putrid oppression on another minority.

              That is wrong and it deserves to be called out for what it is. Rank Bigotry.

              President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

              by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 04:01:27 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  A couple quick points (0+ / 0-)

                First, the "black community" is not homogenous. All blacks aren't the same. Just as all whites aren't the same. The white civil rights workers of the 1960 had very little joint community with the whites lynching blacks. So, it's unfair to lay this at the feet of a race. Still, if there are people (and I know there are some black ones) who are advocating against equal rights, bitch them the fuck out.

                Second point. I'm not buying the CNN exit poll. Exit polling is flawed. Blacks were a small sample size. The numbers didn't match the more robust SUSA polling. I'm not saying that there's not a problem with the way many AA leaders treat homosexuality, but this piece of evidence doesn't pass the smell test for me. I'm not buying it.

                But vent. People here should afford you that right without the HRs. When you're done venting, take your issues to the people you see in the black community that are the problem. Then let's all come together to get rid of this prop 8 bullshit. That needs to be the focus.

          •  Asians, whites, and Hispanics also voted FOR it (0+ / 0-)

            in CA so whats your point? Seriously? Why single out an ENTIRE group of people when there is statisical evidence that a diverse group of peope were against it.

            And have you even considered that the GLBT community NOT reaching out to Asians, Hispanics, AND African Americans, played a huge part in the opposition?

            Oh and I want to make it a point that I am young, black, and live in IL. I personally would have voted NO but I know there is a generational divide and those who are older that oppose gay marriage believe in the bible and believe that a marriage is sacred and should only be for "Adam and Eve".

            Actually why dont you take your issues up with the church?

            •  As I've said repeatedly in this thread, the other (0+ / 0-)

              groups were roughly 50-50. Blacks were disproportionally 70-30 in favor. And they hit 71-29 in Floriday. And they're 65-70% opposed to gay marriages nationally.

              On top of that, the damned diary was trying to absolve black people of the disproportionate level of homophobic bigotry on display.

              THAT is what the point is.

              The fact that people just gloss over this and act as if I made my comment about my community in a vacuum is just ridiculous.

              President Barack Obama - #44

              by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:23:48 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, and as I said earlier in the week (6+ / 0-)

          the problem is with ALL Obama voters who voted yes on Prop 8, their race and religion is irrelevant. We aren't there yet, the gap between the real America and the new America is huge. There is a lot of work to do to bring a better understanding of the importance of Social Justice to all of us.

        •  Shanikka, I think we can call you "Poblana" (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Deoliver47, atheistben, sethtriggs

          Great Diary!

      •  I decided to recommend this.... (14+ / 0-)

        ...because your points do belie the claims of the exit poll (I read through your entire diary before commenting).  But I would prefer that some of the language not be in this.  You can take a look at my comment downthread.

        On another note, I have been suspicious of that exit poll for a while now.  The results would be incredibly lopsided compared to what has happened with black voters when these amendments were on the ballot in 2004.  You bring up a lot of points, including incarceration rates, which anyone with any criminal law experience in CA would know casts quite a bit of doubt on the numbers game here.

        "We're half awake in a fake empire."

        by Alec82 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 01:26:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

          •  Pre-election polling also had this thing losing (13+ / 0-)

            I don't know whether or not the numbers were that close.  It is really immaterial for laying blame, as blame can be placed solely on the people who voted for this amendment.  The numbers really only matter to the extent that the No on 8 campaign (which hopefully in two years or less will be transformed into the Yes On Prop Marriage Equality Campaign) can learn where it really needs to focus its energy.

            "We're half awake in a fake empire."

            by Alec82 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 01:46:00 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The margin of error was +/- 4% (9+ / 0-)

              in that 11/1 polling.  Survey USA was also spot on with the final CA presidential vote.
              http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

            •  There is another major factor about Prop 8 (15+ / 0-)

              And it's the thing I dislike about these silly propositions on ballots. That is the way they are worded. I'd be willing to bet you that half the votes for Prop 8 happened because voters, far from being bigots, actually couldn't understand how to vote on the proposition. As I understand it, you needed to vote "no." But the normal way of thinking is "Oh, this is the thing about gay marriage - do I support it or not? Yeah, I support it. So I guess I vote yes." See, this is the thing they do to get their propositions passed. Reverse-word it so that "yes" means "no" and "no" means "yes." It can completely fool the voter (of whatever ethnicity) that may have not had the time to really sit down and understand the implications of the vote. Case in point, I had a long discussion with my very good friend who is a white woman living in San Francisco prior to the election. She's a well educated and very smart woman, with a high-level job and not a bigoted bone in her body. Yet, she was completely confused about Prop 8. I would have been too if I hadn't been spending so much time here on DKos. So, I expect the losing margin on Prop 8 may have happened because of utter confusion on the language of the proposition. That said, I think these important decisions are better left up to the courts who can at least debate and make decisions from an informed point of view. If this country had held a proposition on a ballot to determine the Civil Rights bill, it would NEVER have passed. Schools got integrated by the Court. Black people were finally able to sit at the lunch counter through national legislation.

              If you look at the facts, as this excellent diary has done, blaming black people for the passage of Prop 8 is both baseless and ridiculous. Were black people also the cause of like-minded ballot initiatives also going the same way in Arkansas or other states? Give me a break. Your racism is showing and showing badly. You think black people did something you don't like and now you're not going to be a "N-lover?" Were you an N-lover in the first place, before this election? Is that what you were? I don't think black people really need the support of people who see themselves "N-lovers." Black people need people who see them as just regular people, not a monolith that you can blame or credit for any one thing. Do you really believe that the bulk of the deciding vote of Prop 8 is the work of black people? How about all those bigoted whites, homophobic Latino's or intolerant Asians, to name a few? You guys are besmirching the name of DKos. Get a grip.

              If you want to do something constructive, how about posting a list of ALL businesses run or owned by the Mormon church and let us all join together and boycott the shit out of them. I'd be much delighted to join with you in the effort.

              •  Did you mean to respond to my comment? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                schmed, Zulia

                Where in my comment, or in any of my comments, have I said anything remotely similar to this:

                If you look at the facts, as this excellent diary has done, blaming black people for the passage of Prop 8 is both baseless and ridiculous. Were black people also the cause of like-minded ballot initiatives also going the same way in Arkansas or other states? Give me a break. Your racism is showing and showing badly. You think black people did something you don't like and now you're not going to be a "N-lover?" Were you an N-lover in the first place, before this election? Is that what you were? I don't think black people really need the support of people who see themselves "N-lovers." Black people need people who see them as just regular people, not a monolith that you can blame or credit for any one thing. Do you really believe that the bulk of the deciding vote of Prop 8 is the work of black people? How about all those bigoted whites, homophobic Latino's or intolerant Asians, to name a few? You guys are besmirching the name of DKos. Get a grip.

                I AGREE WITH THE DIARIST ON THE FAULTS OF THE EXIT POLL!  I said that I blame the people who voted for Proposition 8: black, white, Asian, Hispanic, straight, gay, evangelical, atheist, Catholic, Buddhist, etc.  I don't care.  And I blame myself because once again I campaigned for the fucking Democratic presidential ticket instead of putting my resources into fighting this amendment, apart from donations.  All time spent canvassing and phone banking went to President-elect Obama, as did most of my money.  Just like in 2004 with Senator Kerry.  Well....

                In 2010 and 2012, if I live in a state where one of these amendments is up, fuck the party if there's been as much progress on this issue as there has been to date. That's what comments like yours suggest.

                "We're half awake in a fake empire."

                by Alec82 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:39:59 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Thank You! (3+ / 0-)

            This is the biggest mystery.

            None of the polling data showed such overwhelming support, yet asshole like Dan Savage are willing to jump on the exit poll without questioning the numbers.

          •  Another pre-election poll (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            elliott, Beverly And

            This Field Poll had AAs supporting it 49-43. Not 70-30 but still significantly higher the statewide average in that poll, 44-49 against.

            http://www.sfgate.com/...

            For how divisive this has turned out to be, let's just commission another poll of AA voters to settle this once and for all. 70-30 sounds suspiciously high. Based on the Field Poll and accounting for the Bradley Effect I'd guess 60-40.

      •  Excellent. (41+ / 0-)

        Reasonable, logical rants supported by facts are by favorite brand.

        As usual, Dems are doing a great job flaming each other, but as long as we have diaries like this, the dialogue leads somewhere.

        I think many gays are feeling hurt, forgoten and abused this week. Can't say I blame them. Yesterday, I engaged one to try to convince him/her to come back in from the ledge and use this historic win to stand up for gay rights.  No time to comment here, but if you're interested in this exchange you can search my comments.

        T+R.  Keep writting.  Good work.

        Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

        by koNko on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 01:54:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You know, the Democratic Party.... (28+ / 0-)

          ...shouldn't really expect much support from the gay community in the near future if there's no action in this new Congress in the next two years on ENDA, DADT and at least a partial repeal of the more draconian aspects of the DOMA.  I can't really excuse the party much more, after watching the pathetic efforts in the last four years on the marriage issue and the absolute failure to advance legislation in all but the most liberal areas.  During the civil rights movement politicians took real risks.  ENDA isn't even risky, and most of the population objects solely to the use of the term marriage.  But there has been relatively little movement to advance legislation on a lot of fronts, and not much support when it comes to defeating these amendments.

          "We're half awake in a fake empire."

          by Alec82 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 01:59:34 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Okay what do you want us at DK to do? (16+ / 0-)

            Please do tell me. I can't say I'm very happy with the party neither but it seems like instead of "taking those risks" we're just fighting amongst ourselves. I mean for fuck's sake, no one here voted for fucking 8, so why are we fighting with EACH OTHER!? Please do explain that to me. Go write and protest the Dem party's leadership and your reps, I fucking ENCOURAGE it, but don't act like we here are the ones to blame.

            •  This is a Democratic blog (55+ / 0-)

              There have been plenty of arguments made here against Obama "taking a firm stand" on proposition 8 (as in, a vocal one).  This predates this controversy.  And I have to say, listening to Obama announce his firm belief that marriage is between a man and a woman as part of a robocall in my voice mail the day after this amendment passed, having listened to all of those arguments, well....that brings some clarity to all of this.  Really does.

              If the Democratic Party does not take action the Democratic Party should not expect the support of gays and lesbians, or liberals, for that matter.  We've had incrementalism on this issue for forty years come next June.  We also have over half the states approving these amendments, absolutely no movement on federal legislation for employment/housing, DADT, DOMA, etc. and a follow the leader mentality on issues ranging from the impeachment of the war criminals sitting in the White House briefing rooms to FISA to Iraq to, well, you get the drift.

              It is funny.  I've seen a lot of comments about not taking black voters for granted.  Why should they take gay voters for granted? It is the same principle in the end. And yet they do, with both.

              "We're half awake in a fake empire."

              by Alec82 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 02:57:52 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  No, but a lot of str8 white Kossacks have argued (40+ / 0-)

              that GLBT Dems need to sit down, shut up, get to the back of the bus. If Obama had lost, you bet your buttons there would be a hell of a lot of straight liberal haters here blaming it - again - on Teh Gays for making so much noise that they provoked a backlash, like they did in 2004.

              So what we here can do is organize against DADT, DOMA, and the like. And not say "well it's not MY problem, no skin off MY nose b/c I'm straight," let alone "shut up you're scaring the centrists, you queers."

              "Don't be a janitor on the Death Star!" - Grey Lady Bast (change @ for AT to email)

              by bellatrys on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 02:59:18 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  ah, how could I forget 2004 (22+ / 0-)

                "Gay marriage cost us Ohio" because, wait for it, wait for it....Bush got a higher percentage of the black vote due to same-sex marriage!

                Full circle, here we come, here we are.  Now that same myth can't be parroted around so the new one will have to do.

                "We're half awake in a fake empire."

                by Alec82 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 03:05:11 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  what I don't get (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Uberbah, New Mexico Dem, randomsubu

                is why marriage is an issue for anyone. Straight, gay, atheist, christian, whatever... Why are we in the marriage business at all? Why regulate it through licensure?

                Hell, we regulate liquor less than marriage. You don't need a blood test, a separate license, a waiting period and you certainly don't need lawyers involved if the liquor purchase didn't work out in the end. Instead, we regulate all of this crap and for what? To deny some the ability to marry someone they love when they are both concenting adults? We don't live in the feudal age. Can't we just get the Federal Government, state and local governments out of the entire marriage business? And if you want to live together (or marry), you can add that other on as your dependant for benefits or taxes (if we don't change the code)?

                Seriously, why do we regulate marriage?

                The most important word in the language of the working class is `solidarity.'--Harry Bridges, longshore union leader

                by Bendygirl on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:09:58 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Because marriage has always been a legal contract (6+ / 0-)

                  A fact that we disguise in this country by routinely deputizing religious figures to act for the state in this regard. You can have all the religious figures you like pray over you and pronounce you married to your beloved. But without that piece of paper from the state, the religious ritual doesn't mean bupkes. What we need to do is what they've done in most of the rest of the developed world, and make marriage purely a legal affair. Those folks who want it can get a religious ceremony to bless their union--but only after the legal one has taken place.

                  •  okay (0+ / 0-)

                    legal contract. Still seems so, well, antiquated. And the religious figures acting on behalf of the state, okay, I get that now.  Still seems so antiquated.

                    The most important word in the language of the working class is `solidarity.'--Harry Bridges, longshore union leader

                    by Bendygirl on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:26:59 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  You're substantially right, but (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    musing85, Powered Grace, st minutia

                    it's not correct to say that religious figures are proxies for the state regarding marriage.  All the state cares about is the marriage license itself--that's the legal contract part.  Whether the license is connected to some kind of religious ceremony is (rightly) neither here nor there to the state.

                    You have hit the nail on the head regarding the general public's misconception about the word "marriage."  It's likely that a lot of people think that "marriage" is the religious part exclusively, and that the state's part of it is (or should be) called something else, a "civil union," for example.  That's not the case, and that's why people are confused--where they are confused.  They are confused because they suppose that by allowing same-sex marriages, the states will start forcing religious institutions to perform marriage ceremonies, even if those ceremonies conflict with the religion's doctrine.

                    That is not what will happen.  By allowing same-sex marriages, what the state is doing is providing two people of the same sex with the legal rights that come with marital status, and with the right to have their rights acknowledged in the same terms that opposite-sex marriages enjoy; equality, in other words.  Religion doesn't--and shouldn't--have any bearing on someone's civil rights.

                •  I've always wondered the same thing. (0+ / 0-)

                  Why in the world government should have anything to do with who marries who absolutely baffles me.

                  Just like it baffles me that some Dems think that they can keep stringing GLBT voters along, like "don't worry guys, we'll get to you eventually, if you vote for us... but we won't outwardly support your rights or anything, cause then the straights'll freak out. And it's not like the Republicans are gonna help you out any time soon, right?" it's just horribly unfair.

                  •  kind of like living in DC (0+ / 0-)

                    no voting rights, no voice in Congress, no Senators, oh, but residents pay taxes and yeah, Congress controls its budget, legal system and more land than any other location in the country. I believe the total is 40% (however, some land has recently changed hands, so this might be smaller now).

                    The Democratic Party hasn't taken advantage of GLBT Democrats or voters any more than it has taken advantage of black voters, women voters, veteran voters, pro-choice voters, union voters, etc... We are an umbrella party. We are all spokes of that umbrella but California isn't the entire country. There are going to be ignorant people filled with fear and hate and it's up to each of us to move them to the right point of view. Unfortunately, it's a lot of work, and it's hard work, but it is what we all have to do and we don't just do it at the national level, it's got to come up from the people. It's from Ohio to California to the disenfranchised in DC, maybe when we all do the heavy lifting things will be less horribly unfair, unfortunately, it's just going to take more time than we'd like, now seems so much better than later.

                    The most important word in the language of the working class is `solidarity.'--Harry Bridges, longshore union leader

                    by Bendygirl on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:05:02 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  I haven't read those comments and frankly (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                dadanation

                I am apalled by anyone who would say that. We do need to work together to apply pressure and work towards getting Federal DOMA repealed and ENDA enacted.  That is the message of this campaign we CAN work together to make this country work for very citizen, now is not the time to go back to grinding the same old axes that got us in this mess.

              •  This straight white Kossack (6+ / 0-)

                was arguing with a heavily conservative family on gay rights prior to the election. This country is moving forward, and the GLBT community is coming with us.

                You're in a lot better shape than the atheist community. The dirtiest ad of the season was one candidate using a fake voice to make it sound if another candidate believes, well, like me.

                Chin up. We've got work to do.

              •  Please don't air all grievances here (0+ / 0-)

                You are absolutely right that a lot of Democrats want queers to vote and shut up, and that sucks. But that is not what this diary is about. This diary is about the split between the LGBT community and the AA community: how real it is, what people are saying about it, and what people should be saying about it if we want to win.

                (Personally I think: it's real but exaggerated; there is stupid destructive stereotyping coming from small factions in both sides; and we need to take this opportunity to stand against the stereotypes and build bridges. Specifically, this racially-charged atmosphere is not the context in which to raise other grievances: you are welcome to write another diary on that, and I'd be happy to recommend it.)

                Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                by homunq on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:30:21 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Exactly (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                justalittlebitcrazy, unspeakable

                My first dip into the pool on the subject was met with exactly that attitude yesterday. "Can't you allow us to celebrate Obama's victory for a few days without you pissing on the happy mood?".

            •  For the most part (6+ / 0-)

              it isn't a Kos thing, it's a Democratic position, probably because of the Clinton initiative about gays in the military his first term.
              I agree though that the Democratic operatives are often wrong, otherwise we would have been looking at a Hillary candidacy.
              I think most Kossaks, both black and white, would agree with me that Prop8 was an abomination.

              •  And we need to move on from there (7+ / 0-)

                That was a generation ago. It was an embarrassment to me as a Dem that they did the Don't Ask, Don't Tell, and it was another mark against Colin Powell for using the same arguments to keep gays from serving openly they used to keep the troops segregated.
                But, the younger generation just doesn't think anything about it. Yes, you are going to have homophobes, don't get me wrong. But the numbers have changed. 73% now have no problem with gays serving in the military openly according to a Zogby taken in 2006. That is a HUGE jump from 1993 where only 13% did.
                I do think they framed the argument against prop 8 wrong. Pushing the idea that it is fundamentally WRONG to take away rights by amending the constitution might have pulled a few people over.

                Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally. Abraham Lincoln

                by melthewriter on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 04:01:33 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  isn't that how they did frame it? (0+ / 0-)

                  i have only seen the tv ads online, but my impression was that they emphasized fundamental right angles almost to the exclusion of other themes.

                  www.beyondmarriage.org

                  by decafdyke on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 04:57:03 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Clinton and Gays in the Military (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sparhawk, opinionated, zett, Uberbah

                  Clinton should have simply led and issued an executive order opening the military up to gays and lesbians. Period.

                  He was, after all Commander in Chief. And, for once, this actually is an issue that falls under the President's Commander-in-Chief powers.

                  He could have cited Truman, who did the same thing when he desegregated the military.  Clinton had an electoral mandate to do so, since he clearly said he would in the campaign.

                  But instead, Clinton let himself get rolled. He buckled under pressure from his critics in the military and Congress (and, I suspect, within his own administration).  The result was not only the abomination called Don't Ask Don't Tell, Clinton also taught his enemies that he could be pushed around. And he enshrined the entire area of gay rights as an apparently winning issue for the right.

                  I voted for Clinton in 1992. His mishandling of this issue was one of my first moments of real anger at him.  Within four years (and many betrayals later) I was out of the Democratic Party.

                  This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

                  by GreenSooner on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 04:58:43 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  had clinton issued an executive order (6+ / 0-)

                    there is a very strong possibility that the legislative policy enacted by congress would have been far worse than what we got with DADT.

                    remember that clinton was to issue an executive order ending the travel and immigration ban for foreigners with hiv only to have the congress legislate an entirely draconian and even more strict policy than what was currently in place.

                    let's not forget that clinton got rolled by fellow DEMOCRATS in the DADT fiasco.  sam nunn for example.

                    _______________

                    it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

                    -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                    by dadanation on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:04:20 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  There's also the problem (6+ / 0-)

                      that the Uniform Code of Military Justice makes sodomy (defined as any contact between the genitals of one person and the mouth or anus of another, so basically anything not straight-up missionary sex) a criminal offense. Never mind that, while the article in question as written criminalizes a wife giving her husband a blow job, it is only ever invoked against lesbian and gay servicemembers. It would, however, take an act of Congress to repeal or change that article--an executive order wouldn't cut it. So if Clinton had integrated gay and lesbian servicemembers by executive order, it's quite likely that the JAG corps would simply have resorted to the sodomy provisions to toss them out anyway. And there's no way he would've gotten a bill through Congress in 1993 to decriminalize sodomy. Not with Sam Nunn as head of the Senate Armed Forces Committee.

                      •  You're certainly right about Sam Nunn... (7+ / 0-)

                        Funny how nobody brings this sort of thing up when he's seriously discussed as an Obama cabinet member.

                        Even within the Democratic Party, homophobia remains more or less socially acceptable!

                        This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

                        by GreenSooner on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:22:23 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  And then there's Colin Powell... (9+ / 0-)

                          Bill Clinton should have fired his ass when he spoke publicly against the Commander In Chief's policy. That is outright insubordination, and he should have been marched out of his command. Now he's being considered for a cabinet position. Not to mention his cowardly role in the Bush administration. If Colin Powell had any integrity he should have resigned rather that go along with the Iraq war con job.

                        •  If we are begging for patience and dialog here... (0+ / 0-)

                          Please do not forget that "even" Sam Nunn has come to understand that Don't Ask, Don't Tell is probably a bad idea in this day.

                          From 6/3/2008 article in the AJC:

                          "I think [when] 15 years go by on any personnel policy, it’s appropriate to take another look at it — see how it’s working, ask the hard questions, hear from the military. Start with a Pentagon study," Nunn said.

                          "People don’t understand that that was the beginning point. We basically made it possible for people to serve honorably in the military without lying on the application," Nunn said.

                          If we can just be honest and learn to appreciate progress in the older generations, rather than vilifying them, perhaps they will continue to move in our direction.

                          Read his comments carefully... Nunn thought then (and continues to think) that Don't Ask, Don't Tell was progress. I am not arguing whether it was actual progress, only that we do not help ourselves when we make a demon of those who think they are helping.

                          Was Nunn "misguided"? Possibly. Was he wrong? Yeah.

                          Was he an evil SOB? Until I see reason to think otherwise, I choose to believe his motives were for progress.

                      •  JAG would have to prove an act occured, though. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        musing85, dadanation

                        And on military time, that is, since the person joined and before they left the military.

                        Once you discharge, UCMJ doesn't apply to you. Before you swear that oath, UCMJ doesn't apply to you.

                        Your point is taken, and I'd even go so far as to say that the JAG I know certainly wouldn't be above fabricating charges on the flimsiest evidence (ref. Abu Ghraib, Gitmo), but the larger problem is culture.

                        Gay gets washed out of the military, no question, and that's on military personnel, who ARE by the way, under orders from their Commander-in-Chief, and bound to Executive Orders, no matter what Sam fucking Nunn is about.

                        Clinton could have done a number of things to combat this, and he didn't. Obama could still do a number of things to combat this, and might I add, therefore strengthen the military.

          •  Well... (11+ / 0-)

            The Promises to the African American community started during FDRs first term.

            20 years later the military was desegregated.

            It took twelve more years to get the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

            All of that ONLY happened because Democrats were FORCED to live up to their promises.

            Leaving won't fix anything...but holding their feet to the fire will.

            If the California Supreme Court won't overturn 8, let's make sure Obama has to turn away 3,000 people, LGBT and str8, wearing rainbow t-shirts at every rally and speech he gives.

            •  Obviously that fight.... (8+ / 0-)

              ...took a hell of a lot longer than even your timeline suggests.  Centuries, even.

              I'm not planning on leaving the party.  I was born a Democrat and I'll presumably die one barring some sort of bizarre ideological realignment.  

              It did, however, take actual courage on the part of Democratic (and Republican) politicians to enact change.  I see very little of that on this issue today.

              "We're half awake in a fake empire."

              by Alec82 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 03:53:05 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm talking (5+ / 0-)

                Just from when promises started comming from the Democratic Party...which was previous to FDR THE segregationist party.

                Not trying to encapsulate the entire history of 450 years ;)

                My point, though, is that it's only when Democrats had their feet held to the fire that any of the promises were realized.

                •  This Timeline is Simply Wrong (10+ / 0-)

                  FDR made very few promises to black people as such.

                  FDR's Democratic Party was a segregationist party, despite FDR's personal opinions (and, to her great credit, Eleanor Roosevelt's very public ones).

                  The party did not adopt a civil rights plank in its platform until 1948.  That's the moment one can start the clock on a partywide commitment to African American civil rights, when the party's Southern wing stops determining national policy on race.

                  And in that very year, Truman signed an executive order desegregating the military (no "don't ask don't tell" equivalent for him).

                  Before 1948, civil rights was, in effect, a minority position in the Democratic Party. When the party adopted it as an official goal, the president immediately made a meaningful change, though it would take another decade and a half (and a lot of nonpartisan, grassroots African American struggle) to make the big changes of the mid-1960s.

                  The timeline for today's Democrats on gay and lesbian rights is very different.  Since at least 1992, the Democratic Party has wanted to have it both ways on gay rights.  They want credit for being the party of gay rights, while telling gays and lesbians to wait in the back of the bus.

                  This isn't the equivalent of the Democratic Party of 1948. It's the equivalent of the Republican Party of 1948, a party with a long-standing commitment, on paper, to African American civil rights, but that did nothing to advance those rights beyond wanly pointing across the aisle and (correctly) noting that the other party was worse.

                  When then-Mayor Hubert Humphrey led the charge at the 1948 Democratic convention to adopt a civil rights plank, the Dixiecrats, led by Strom Thurmond, walked out. The majority of the Democrats knew what they were doing. They knew that they might lose their party's haters if they adopted a civil rights plank.

                  Today's Democratic Party needs to show a similar willingness to say goodbye to its own homophobes (who, as the diarist points out, come in all colors).

                  This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

                  by GreenSooner on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 05:10:15 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  I would expect there would be, but honestly (0+ / 0-)

            there are so many important things that need to get fixed. We have lost more than 500,000 jobs in the last 2 months. It might take longer than two years, but may I remind you the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was along time in coming and it is my belief the assassination of JFK played a huge part in driving it the last year or it too might have been put off for a year or two more.

            It is going to happen, it really is, but it is going to take ALL of us working together to get things done. Isn't that the message really? We can work together to change this country?

          •  this about sums it up (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            justalittlebitcrazy, kimoconnor

            "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage."

            - Barack Obama

            Face it -- all the LGBT community is to the Democratic Party is a big effin ATM.  Punch the right buttons, smile, and out pops the cash.

            Then they deliver Nada.

            Why when I think of Bush does the bumper sticker "Chaos Panic and Destruction -- My Work Here Is Done" come to mind?

            by jimsaco on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:54:43 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Prop 8 passed for a reason (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sethtriggs

            the american people as a whole are homophobic(not just blacks). Supporting gay rights is political suicide. Why do you think Democrats never win the South? Because of the civil rights movement.

            It is up to the gay community to make gay marriage acceptable to the majority of the American people. If that doesn't happen then you should not expect any congressional democrats to fight for gay rights. There is no point in turning the victories we worked for over the past 4 years in washington into cannon fodder for the right.

            Oh, and scapegoating black people doesn't help.

            •  I'm tired of this (4+ / 0-)

              My comment had nothing to do with blaming black people for the passage of proposition 8.  I've said again and again that I think that exit poll was crap. I agree with the diarist on all the substantive points.

              And this:

              It is up to the gay community to make gay marriage acceptable to the majority of the American people. If that doesn't happen then you should not expect any congressional democrats to fight for gay rights. There is no point in turning the victories we worked for over the past 4 years in washington into cannon fodder for the right.

              A. Gay rights is not limited to marriage equality.

              B. If we're not going to receive assistance from the federal representatives we helped volunteer for, fund and support in all sorts of ways, why should we ever do anything for the Democratic Party in the future?

              Finally, a word on "blame."  Gays and lesbians and the transgendered and bisexuals come in all shapes, colors, sizes, creeds, etc.  The gay community is not lily white, despite how we're portrayed in the media. This is not an issue of blame, at least not for me. I squarely place the blame on the supporters of these amendments and our do nothing congresscritters that treat gays like an ATM when convenient.  Or perhaps more appropriately, a credit card, payments deferred indefinitely.  And not just on marriage, but on everything.

              Supporting gay rights always seems to be political "suicide" when it is convenient, when we need to wait.  Even scraps off the plates on the American table are too much.  Well, sorry, that won't cut it.  

              "We're half awake in a fake empire."

              by Alec82 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:59:06 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  sorry (0+ / 0-)

                the bit about not blaming black people wasn't directed at you.

                If we're not going to receive assistance from the federal representatives we helped volunteer for, fund and support in all sorts of ways, why should we ever do anything for the Democratic Party in the future?

                The same reason the rest of us do? Iraq, the environment, ethics, healthcare, education...

                our do nothing congresscritters that treat gays like an ATM when convenient.

                I think everyone in CA feels that way. NY too. Nevertheless, as long as we have an electoral college, we will have to suck it up and support the Farm bill, clean coal and civil unions(or whatever they come up with). Otherwise we would never have won Virginia, NC, and Iowa. Look at FL, the anti-gay proposition there passed with something like 60+% of the vote. If Obama had vocally supported Gay marriage, would he have carried Florida?

                Again, look at Charlie Brown, it is a dead heat in an R+16 district. It would have been a blow out if all the people there that voted for prop 8 voted for McClintock as well.

                As a Californian, this election was bittersweet, but the sweet party WAY outweighed the bitter. It is so important right now to have a President Obama. I am confident that Prop 8 can be killed before too long. I hope that what happened on Tuesday has forced many californians to take a look in the mirror and think about what it was exactly that they voted to do.

      •  Thank you (41+ / 0-)

        It's been an ugly few days, and I've been sick to my stomach over all of this, too.

        I was planning to write something like this, but you did it much better.

        The right has always tried to divide us. There's no reason to let them get their wish. We're all in this together.

        •  I avoided the diaries (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          marina, alkalinesky, BoiseBlue, bearfootin

          Because I knew that would be my reaction.

          Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally. Abraham Lincoln

          by melthewriter on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 04:02:49 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I was in one last night (31+ / 0-)

            That got way too carried away, and I was horrified by what people were saying, even getting recs for it.

            I had to just step away and go to bed. Prop 8 was ugly enough, we don't need to get just as ugly amongst ourselves.

            The fact is, we didn't fight hard enough. We have to look at what WE did wrong and why WE lost the fight. It saddens me to see white gays blaming blacks in general, as though the AA community is monolithic and %100 straight. We don't need a scapegoat. We need leadership and a more effective way to fight.

            •  And a big injection of cash (12+ / 0-)

              Kos wrote this a month before Prop 8 passed.  It wasn't a surprise - the Mormon church threw themselves at this one issue with a powerful amount of energy and money.  The Democratic community was so focused on getting Obama into office, we didn't throw everything we had into fighting them with all they had.

              I don't know if that could have been different this year, with Democrats so focused on getting Obama into office after everything we've been through in the last 8 years (and I do not mean that supporting LGBT people would have undercut achieving that because I don't believe that one bit).  I know Obama has favored full repeal of DOMA so getting him into office is progress at that level.  But there is no denying this is a horrible setback and we need to get on over to it now and throw ourselves at it like we threw ourselves at this election.

              Meanwhile the ACLU, Lambda Legal and the NCLR are appealing this in CA - getting Prop 8 overturned is something we can all turn our attention to now, no excuses (and I say this from NY state, and none of my gay friends and relations live in CA).

              "Civility costs nothing and buys everything." - Mary Wortley Montagu

              by sarac on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 04:45:13 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  There is a deliberate attmept to divide us (6+ / 0-)

              We really ought not fall for that.

              Absolutely one of the worst things about this internet thing is we do not get to hug each other and to share our common humanity.  GLBT are not so much venting as grieving, and it a characteristic of normal human grief that one must at embrace the irrational and that one also early in grief will strike at friends quite frankly because one has learned to love the friend and to know that as grief heals the friend will not abandon you back to its depths.  This is quite frankly ordinary human, primate behavior.  I am not sure whether it is behavior in which chickens engage, however, and continue to marvel at the new importance of chickens in American Political Life.

              My personal hurt has far more to do with Arkansas than California, although as a constitutional lawyer I must tell you I am not at all optimistic regarding the California Supreme Court, or quite frankly any Court on the aftermath Prop 8.  Trying to simply step back and be a lawyer, I must say that although the issue was presented to the Court prior to the ballot (other diaries have made this clear, I knew of it from a Civil Rights CLE course here in Texas), the matter was deliberately not strongly pushed.  This was a political choice made by the attorneys involved, all attorneys have to make choices every day.  The gamble, so to speak, as explained to me and other LGBT lawyers, was that a win at the ballot box was expected and would have more long term significance than a win in court.  People rarely win when the law is subrdinated to the political, but when they do they tend to win big, so I understand the reason why all the donations gathered from GLBT familes acroos America were so to speak taken to Vegas.  Probably would hvae been better not to have used a Mormon-owned casio though.

              The principal problems with the current case are two.  The ages old legal doctine of waiver may compel the court to deny relief on any groud not presented before the election, oddly enough out of respect for the matter of political freedom and choice.  The second is that the economy tanked, and any day now somebody is going to realize that all other finger pointing aside, 73 million was a hell of a lot money to spend when a full argument in advance would have provided the Court the opportunity to avoid the financial waste this campaign occaisioned on all sides, preserved the possibity of peace bewteen GLBT people and Mormons, and all in all in the long run made the Supreme Court of California look like the responsible American jurists they are.  This was a missed opportunity, but in reality I am not sure any one saw it coming.  Despite rumors to the contrary, Judges hate having political questions forced on them by default, and this is what happened here.

              As to Arkansas, I am a gay adoptive Dad in Texas whose family in Arkansas will definitely not be seeing my sons and me this Thanksgiving.  Crossing that state line in Texarkana would mean the relationship my sons and I have would lose legal force and effect, and respect, and no way am I ever going to do that.

              As to healing among ourselves, lets remember times we actually have worked well together before people tried to drive a wedge between us to advance their own agenda.  One of the most marvelous days of my political experience occured when the KKK arrived in Austin in full regalia to protest in favor the Texas anti-marriage amendment.  One of my sons and I, a large segment of Austin's LGBT community, and many many of our African American Friends joined together to hold a counter protest attended by over 100 times the number attending for the Klan.  Two incredible African American legislators, Senator Rodney Ellis and Reprentative Senfronia Thompson, pretty much led the battle against the Amendment, Representative Thompson telling the sponsor to his face on the floor of the House she regarded it as his "3/5 of a person amendment.  She is currently a candidate for Speaker of the House in Texas with my full and complete support for whatever it is worth.  I will never ever forgot how this incredible woman stood up fo me and for my community.  As to the Klan rally, the measure of shared indignation in the two communities, with the LGBT community accepting the role of learning from our fellow citizens who had endured the wrath of those disgusting creatures before, and serving in many ways as examples to us of how to confront the group is an experience I will always cherish, and  I am especially proud of my then-18 year old's "Real Men Don't Wear White after Labor Day" sign.

              The division is invited in other manipulative ways,
              like the insistance on intelligent design which is really a perpetuation of white supremacy, designed to make sure no American school child is ever taught that evolutionary science might have discovered that at least Eve, and possibly Adam, were, you know, African, and that all of us are descended from the first human race which emerged on that continent - some of us making survival of the fittest adaptations to a cooler climate by genetically selecting a paler skin and blonder hair for the simple adaptation reason that these worked better in the cold, cold north.  Or by denying any truth to a "theory" of evolution, in order to preserve the possibility, as the Mormons once taught that the mark God put on Cain after the murder of Abel was to turn Cain black - hard to do if Cain's mother was, you know, African.  The religious Right's attempt to divide us must never ever be allowed to suceed.  They can simply never stand stand the fact that people are harder to control when they actually get to sit together at the lunch counter and share basic human conversation.  Or when they stand in line at the same water cooler.  More sublte perhaps, but all about divide and conquer - maximize our differences.

              Have to give this one though.  By making all public education the enemy and attempting to destroy it, they have found a unique way to brag that we no longer have separate education, and that what is offered is all equal, since of course zero does equal zero.

              Not that anyone in the religious right ever would try to supress knowledge or deny education to any American Child?

              Come Together.  We really do work better that way.

              God and ego are not equivalent expressions of reality.

              by Othniel on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:47:37 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, and you were very carried away yourself (0+ / 0-)

              I was horrified by what people were saying, even getting recs for it.

              Irony of ironies. I saw you rec a very inappropriate comment. Even asked you why. You didn't answer.

              Aother irony... I've always seen you as one of the most level-headed, insightful commenters here. Again, another irony.

              •  Yes, I saw your comments (0+ / 0-)

                I said I was going to bed, and you were demanding answers from me AFTER I already said that.

                That being said, I thought about your comment that you resented my use of the word "queer." I've always used that word. Always. Although from now on I will keep in mind that in a heated debate it might not be the best word to use, I can't promise that I never will again, because I prefer that to LGBTQ or any other anagram.

                Second, there were some vile comments in there from everyone, and as far as this:

                I've always seen you as one of the most level-headed, insightful commenters here. Again, another irony.

                The feeling is mutual, to be quite frank.

                It's no sweat off my back that you've lost respect for me because of this. I don't carry grudges and I have no intention of doing that now, but if you can't disagree without maintaining some level of respect, that's just fine.

            •  Didn't fight hard enough? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              justalittlebitcrazy

              This makes my blood absolutely boil.  Gay and lesbian Americans have been fighting for equal rights for 40 years.  You don't think that's long or hard enough?  

              Prop 8 was a measure of pure bigotry.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that "Eliminates the right of same-sex couples to marry" is a vile attack on the civil rights of fellow Americans.  And you essentially blame the victim by saying they didn't fight hard enough?  Show me any other minority that has EVER their legal rights up to a general vote.  

              50 years ago blacks didn't have the right to drink at the same water fountains as whites.  And the reason blacks were the victims of discrimination is because "they just didn't fight hard enough", right?  

        •  This is not a good diary. (26+ / 0-)

          It was written in anger and addresses the wrong issue.

          The argument isn't that "black people caused Prop 8 to pass". It's that an exit poll showed 70% of black voters supporting it and that many LGBT people take this as a betrayal.

          The good diary would be one that said "calm down, everybody and wait for better demographic data". This diary just repeats the usual "if you disagree with us or hold us accountable you are a racist".

          After the McClurkin clusterfuck I'm out of patience for African-Americans defending homophobia and telling LGBT people to "lie back and take it". I'm tired of everything being instantly labelled "racist".

          AFAIC, this diary does little to help and much to harm. We get OUR rights taken away and somehow it's all about African-Americans being victimized.

          No thank you.

          "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

          by homogenius on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:21:28 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  when the AA community joins the right... (0+ / 0-)

          it isn'tthe right that's dividing us.

          Like communism and fascism before it, fundamentlism will not rest until it is thoroughly discredited or the entire world is under its yoke.

          by Guinho on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 05:28:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Glad you got this into a diary (12+ / 0-)

        I think I remember some people yesterday telling you to turn a comment into a diary.

      •  Yesterday diarist Leslie123 tried (46+ / 0-)

        to raise the same points

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        valiantly attempting to de-construct the "facts" of the  totally unscientific exit poll.

        We need to be very aware that there is a reason the press is pushing this - divide and conquer, undercut the coalitions we have built.

        And certain folks have fallen for it - hook line and sinker.

        Bless you for this diary.

        Anthropologists for human diversity; opposing McCain perversity

        by Denise Oliver Velez on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 02:54:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm furious about it (34+ / 0-)

        and I'm glad you're doing the numbers, because I'm very slow and bad at math, but even I can tell that the black-blaming was as irrational as the Freepers' blaming of the presidential election outcome on legal immigrants.

        You know who I'm seeing it from mostly in the blogosphere, btw? Ex-Log-Cabin Republicans. Andrew Sullivan, that old racist, classist lover of the Bell Curve. Sebastian at Obsidian Wings. I call deflection, as well as bullshit.

        After all, somebody might start blaming them again for having given us Bushco in the first place - even tho' it makes as little sense, given how few GLBT Americans there are and how few of them are Republicans.

        But "find a scapegoat quick" is both a) fallen human nature, and b) the MO of conservatives everywhere...

        "Don't be a janitor on the Death Star!" - Grey Lady Bast (change @ for AT to email)

        by bellatrys on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 02:56:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  And it's total bullshit (21+ / 2-)

        the people defending the racists by saying "they're not really racist they're just angry" - um, yeah, and if they weren't REALLY racist then they wouldn't be leaping to buy into and then peddle the racial scapegoating, would they? (I gather it's also happening with the Asian/Pacific Islander vote, according to my blogroll, as well. Figures.)

        Saying "oh, they're just angry" is like saying "Mel Gibson isn't really an anti-Semite and a sexist creep - he was just drunk!"

        "Don't be a janitor on the Death Star!" - Grey Lady Bast (change @ for AT to email)

        by bellatrys on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 03:36:42 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Brilliant Point! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FrigginBoobs
        •  What you're saying is just as much bullshit. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OJD

          Maybe some people raging about this are racists, but seeing polls (not everyone realizes how shit exit polls are) that say blacks voted 70-30 for a horribly bigoted proposition makes people who are already heartbroken & furious over this passing stop and go "wait a second. of anyone, we thought YOU GUYS would understand how awful this is!" and flare up.  Now, you can easily argue that the idea of a coalition of minorities sticking up for one another just because they're minorities is naive and stupid, since people are people and we all struggle with prejudice, but painting everyone who is angry at the black community for this is racist is just as narrow-minded.

      •  okay, who wrote that? (8+ / 0-)

        Great diary, Shanikka. I didn't read those diaries because I did not want anything to ruin my Obama high.

        I do want to know who wrote this detestable, ignorant comment. That person will be on permanent ignore.

        -7.38, -5.23 I voted for Barack Obama at 8:31 a.m. EDT on Oct. 24. What about you? Go Obama/Biden 2008!

        by CocoaLove on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 04:26:34 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you! (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sobermom, mj171976, Deoliver47

        Nothing like a TON of facts to put simple bigotry in its proper perspective!

        "the people have the power to redeem the work of fools" --Patti Smith

        by Immigrant Punk on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 04:30:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  THANK YOU! (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sobermom, mj171976, Deoliver47

        One for the archive.  

        "Civility costs nothing and buys everything." - Mary Wortley Montagu

        by sarac on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 04:31:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  If you're going to capitalize "Black" (22+ / 0-)

        then you really ought to capitalize "White," too.

        You see, your argument isn't wrong: your math is correct. Even if every black person had voted "no," the accursed thing still would have passed. A simpler way to put the argument might be that black people didn't put the bloody thing on the ballot in the first place; the Mormon church did, and I can't remember the last time I met a black Mormon.

        Your whole post stinks of "the lady doth protest too much." You know much better than I (a white guy who lives in a heavily black community) how virulent the homophobia is among even relatively educated and affluent black folks. How those horrible charlatan "ministers" denounce the struggle for civil rights for gay and lesbian people as not deserving of the name. You know there's a problem, and while you're quite correct in saying that black folks shouldn't be scapegoated for it, you sure spend an awful lot of time and text not acknowledging that problem.

        Because (using your math), black folks are certainly voting as if they're a disproportionate part of the problem. Gay people went 70/30 for Obama; about 2/3 of Obama voters were Caucasian. But black folks went 70/30 for Prop 8: seven out of ten of them voted to deny their fellows (hell, their fellow black gay people) civil rights. So you're right in saying that black people aren't responsible for Prop 8, and that they shouldn't be scapegoated for it. But you're really doing some impressive gymnastics to avoid acknowledging the truth, which is that the mainstream black community is acting as a barrier to gay civil rights, when in fact their own experience ought to make them support it.

        And like I said, if you're going to capitalize "Black," then you really ought to capitalize "White," too, because otherwise you come off as kind of a racist.

        •  You are yet another part of the problem (8+ / 0-)

          Your whole post stinks of "the lady doth protest too much." You know much better than I (a white guy who lives in a heavily black community) how virulent the homophobia is among even relatively educated and affluent black folks. How those horrible charlatan "ministers" denounce the struggle for civil rights for gay and lesbian people as not deserving of the name. You know there's a problem, and while you're quite correct in saying that black folks shouldn't be scapegoated for it, you sure spend an awful lot of time and text not acknowledging that problem.

          I live in a virulently homophobic white Republican village in NYS.  Do I blame all white folks for homophobia?  No.

          What do you know about relatively affluent educated black folks?  Are some of your best friends black?

          Why would  you make monolithic statements about any "group".

          Oh and BTW - "Caucasians" are people from the Caucasus Mountains.  The use of those old un-scientific tags is as outdated as your rhetoric.  

          We need to applaud all organizations who are part of the battle.  Instead of blaming.

          Here on the East Coast (DC based) we have:
          The National Black Justice Coalition

          We are attempting to do the work.  But I hear few people here (who are blaming blacks) applauding these efforts - or other's like them.

          Anthropologists for human diversity; opposing McCain perversity

          by Denise Oliver Velez on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 05:29:01 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think it does little good to deny the problem (5+ / 0-)

            of "homophobia" in a lot of Black communities. It IS there. And it is, imo, a problem. BUT. The scapegoating in reaction to Prop 8 is also a problem. I'm shocked by it, frankly. It probably would not have reached the degree and proportion that it has if this hadn't coincided with the election of the first Black president, and I can understand the outrage and frustration on the part of gays; psychologically, I guess projecting all that outrage onto Blacks in general and Obama specifically was to be expected. But I see the fact that Prop 8 was strategically placed on the same ballot as another part of the problem, frankly. Pork barrel balloting, anyone?

            Be that as it may. I had a gay friend from SF on the phone the other night--we called each other, as so many of us have done in the past 3 days, to share in our absolute EUPHORIA over the election results.

            Later in the conversation, we got to talking about Prop 8, and homophobia in Black communities in general. Both of us agreed that it is a problem, and one that is related to the strength of the church in many of these communities. (she, btw, was not one to scapegoat Blacks for Prop 8, but rather saw it as the result of a virulent campaign by the Mormons).

            I'm not gay--at least I don't "practice homosexuality" now. For many years, I did. I'm not Black, either. But for the past 15 years or so, I have lived in  mixed-income, educationally diverse, but all Black and predominately heterosexual communities. I live in a heterosexual domestic partnership and so have "married into" a fundamentalist, evangelical Black community. That domestic partnership has not been looked upon kindly. After 10 yrs, they still wish we would marry.

            Based on that experience and perspective, here's how I tried to "talk my friend down". She kept insisting that there's got to be "compromise," at some point, these folks just have to "come around" or just fucking DEAL. What I don't think she understood is how much of a compromise it is for a lot of "these folks" to at least accept the notion of "civil unions"--and a lot of them have. That is a huge compromise for them. Huge. Others outside these communities just do not understand how big that is--the notion that they would accept a civil union between same sex couples, conceding that these civil unions should enjoy the same legal rights and privileges as a marriage is big. And it may well be that this is as far as people of that particular mindset are going to go. In the spirit of compromise, it may be that the rest of us are going to have to be "big" enough to deal with that. (In my own case, when my "husband" and I first moved in together, I had to go stay in a hotel when the in-laws came. Now, 10 yrs later, they still don't like the arrangement, but it's not like I have to move out when they visit! I call that progress because I understand just how big that is, coming from where they are coming from.)

            I've seen people out on the blogs decry Obama as a bigot over this, seen them unfairly quote only one part of his statement on "gay marriage" (that he is against it), without also quoting his statements affirming civil unions and denouncing gay bashing, as well as exclusionary rhetoric and practices. As if Obama had anything to do with placing Prop 8 on the CA ballot in the first place? Jeezus H people, the man just succeeded in basically overthrowing a budding dictatorship, working in the context of an egregiously flawed election system, in the face of serious (and some not so serious), death threats, (not to mention the death of his grandmother)....and let's be honest about the fact that Black voters DID play a major role here.

            Compromise means you aren't going to get all of what you want. What I see Obama trying to do is get "those folks" to the point where they can at the very least accept civil unions. He knows, as I do, that this is a major step and may be as far as we're going to get, at least for the time being.

            All this scapegoating and angry, vicious rhetoric is not helpful, and likely to generate backlash that will prevent even civil unions from being accepted. Yes, keep fighting Prop 8, but don't do it by scapegoating Blacks and blaming Obama, for chrissake. And while we're at it, speaking in terms of "homophobia" in the Black community is also not likely to get us very far. It is lack of acceptance of gay people, exclusion of gay people--and, knowing what I do about the community folks are trying to "sway" here, I think that kind of language would be more effective.

            (sorry, deoliver, this started as a kinda-sorta response to your comment and ended up being another one of my diary-sized comments).

            •  We need to make EVERYONE recognize.... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JSC ltd, b4uknowit

              ....that one can disagree with same sex marriage, but no one should have the ability to vote to discriminate against anyone.

              Any church, Mormon, black evangelical or any other should not have the ability to spend millions of dollars to push a measure that literally changes our constitution making discrimination legal.

              I could give a shit if these so called christians agree with who I might love. They need to think about how they would feel if we spent millions preventing Mormons or Evangelicals from marrying.

              They won't however, for they think they alone are right, and believe God has given them the right to discriminate. It is a duty to these people.

              We need to make sure our laws change to disallow mob rule when it comes to civil rights. That includes the civil rights of the people in these churches.

              Leave me alone, I'll leave you alone. How freaking hard is that?

              01-20-09: THE END OF AN ERROR

              by kimoconnor on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:59:09 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Look, I agree. I do. Someone on another blog (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                zett, lazybum, Deoliver47

                mentioned whether or not there were some way of going after the Mormon church's 501c3 status. If there's anything that can be done there, I think it should be pursued. And if there isn't anything that can be done according to the current statute, then maybe it's time to look at the statute.

                Frankly, if it weren't for these churches out there organizing support for these kinds of referenda and propositions, I think a lot of evangelicals (esp in Black communities) would take a more "look the other way", "live and let live" approach. They wouldn't change their minds, and wouldn't stop trying to evangelize in their own communities, but might keep their opinions to themselves at the polls and would not actively seek to oppose gay marriage: most of them have much more pressing problems to address (like poverty, gun violence, segregated schools that are failing by design, etc.).

                And that's part of what's so disturbing about the scapegoating of Blacks and blaming Obama here: as far as I know, it was primarily  the Mormon church (followed by others) that mobilized support for this--which would seem particularly risky for the Mormons since their sexual practices and marriage rights aren't exactly universally accepted, either.

                As Deoliver stated in a comment downthread: we need to get religion out of marriage. Looking at the IRS code for tax exempt status might be one angle to look at.

            •  Long comments are good especially substantive (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              zett, b4uknowit

              ones - as was yours.

              There are many layers to the black communities (stressing the plural) - and yes there are folks who are pretty strict about marriage - and morals.  This is a direct result of the years and years that we were not allowed to marry, and in many cases not maintain relationships of choice - during the slave period. Yes - that engendered a certain level of conservatism among church going folks.  The irony is that many in the black community are alternatively portrayed as immoral or amoral with Baby mommas and Baby daddies galore, and sociologists have a field day with treatise's on single female heads of households.

              However "gayness" has always been a part of the black church experience too - listen to any black comedian mimicking church choir directors, organists, and ofttimes the lead soloist.  

              These are complex issues - and impossible to explore in depth here.  

              But I hesitate to point fingers - simply because the largest segment of the American populace that is homophobic is certainly not black, since we are a minority.  There are odd quirks regarding all these issues - as a child, and a teen I remember going to the Jewel Box Revue at the Apollo in NY and the Howard theatre in DC - an integrated drag show, which played to packed houses, and primarily black audiences. My parents had gay friends - mainly stage folk, artists, dancers, jazz musicians, singers and yet my mom's family were pretty staid Baptists and Presbyterians.  

              Anyway - I'm meandering - and my response is as long as yours.  

              Here's hoping we can stop scapegoating - and address the real issue - changing the laws Federally, rather than piecemeal.  

              Anthropologists for human diversity; opposing McCain perversity

              by Denise Oliver Velez on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 01:25:49 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  whoosh (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            fcvaguy

            70% is 70%.

          •  NBJC (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Deoliver47

            Thanks for the info about the NBJC. I hadn't come across this organization yet, but after looking at their site, I'm impressed. I think I'll be making a donation when I get paid next week.

          •  WHAT YOU CAN DO (5+ / 0-)

             title=

            Just wanted to underline this from Deoliver47's comment.  The photo is just to gain a little attention for this comment in a diary with over 1000 comments.  Obviously this is a hot issue.  

             title=

            The National Black Justice Coalition, www.nbjc.org, is a civil rights organization dedicated to empowering Black lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people. Our mission is to end racism and homophobia.

            This group is making efforts to address homophobia in the black community.  During the No on 8 fight they sent representatives to CA to do speaking tours and to appear as a voice of reason on religious talk radio shows.   They are ACTIVELY working to address this problem.    

            If you want to help...  make a donation to them, or volunteer.    The donation link is on their page.  So is more information on how you can get involved.  

        •  no, not really. i fact, not at all (0+ / 0-)

          this is just utter tripe:

          And like I said, if you're going to capitalize "Black," then you really ought to capitalize "White," too, because otherwise you come off as kind of a racist.

          indeed it is sad that we have to be so specific about the racial/ethnic make-up of groups, but as the brilliant black gay hiv+ activist phill wilson is often quoted as saying:

          unless i am explicitly included, i am implicitly excluded.

          _______________

          it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

          -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

          by dadanation on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:04:16 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you for posting this (6+ / 0-)

        I've been dismayed by the number of comments that specifically reference African Americans as though that's the biggest problem.  It's good to put it in perspective.

        Birding in New England: advocacy for birds and birders.

        by juliewolf on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 05:02:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  This diary needs to be on the rec list (3+ / 0-)

        For an entire damn week.

        Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a community organizer; George Wallace was a governor.

        by SlackwareGrrl on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 05:21:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  good G-d shanikka, this is impressive (4+ / 0-)

        i can tell that this diary is a labor of love and anger.

        it clearly took you many many hours (that I'm sure you don't have in your busy life) to write this.

        i'm headed out for a weekend conference and wanted to quickly check the blog before heading out the door, and I'm so glad I did not miss reading this masterwork.  I have a feeling I will be linking to it a lot until this "homophobic blacks passed Prop 8" argument dies down.

        thank you for laying out all the facts and stats so clearly.

        Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
        We inaugurate President Barack Obama in 75 days!

        by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 05:21:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I hadn't heard about this until yesterday (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        XerTeacher, Deoliver47, dtruth

        But my guess is that the scapegoating was done to divert attention away from defeating the measure.

        It's the old "divide and conquer" routine.  If we're out here blaming each other, we don't blame those who are really at fault - those who passed this hateful legislation.

        Divert, deny, distract, and divide.

        It's as old as time.

        "January 20th will... be celebrated as a day of soul-wrenching, heartfelt Thanksgiving..." Keith Olbermann

        by Diogenes2008 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 05:22:17 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Oh damn Shanikka (6+ / 0-)

        that was outstanding.  I must confess.  I don't live near CA and haven't followed all the Prop8 diaries.  

        But I think that you've set them straight with a vengeance.  Make that a righteous vengeance.  

        And if they'd had half a brain, they wouldn't have been on dailykos moaning away.

        In fact, this diary should be example #1 in how to write a diary on dkos. Well-researched and well-argued on a point that people are allowing emotion and rhetoric to overtake reason to the detriment of us all.  That's what we accuse the other side of doing.  We shouldn't be doing it here.  

        Thanks so much for taking the time to put this together.  

      •  A ridiculous diary. (25+ / 0-)

        The diarist is simply not in the position to dispute CNN's numbers. What she writes about the matter is pure bullshit. "Gee, I live in California and I'm black, therefore I know more about the number of black people who voted on Tuesday than a news organization with millions of dollars in resources available for the purpose of collecting exit polling data and a staff of professional pollsters to analyze the results." The notion that ten percent of total turnout was from African Americans is completely possible -- they represent about 6% of the population. Total turnout was around 55% give or take, so if the turnout was 80-90% amongst black voters, they could definitely hit the 10% of the total electorate CNN claims. (Also, moronically, the diarist asserts that an extra million black people would have to sneak in, where CNN's poll would project that barely a million voted in total.)

        Look, the calculation is straightforward. The proportion voting for Prop 8 without the black vote is, according to CNN -- and there is no reason at all to doubt their numbers:

        (.63*.49 + .18*.53 + .06*.49 + .03*.51)/(1 - .10) = .498

        You see, it falls just short of passing without 10% of the electorate voting for it by a 70%-30% margin. Now you could argue that sampling error might switch it back to passing, but there is absolutely no doubt what the numbers are telling us: The (rather small) African American vote provided a stunning 2% swing against marriage equality, precisely the margin by which Proposition 8 passed.

        The CNN poll, which again, you are in no position to dispute, breaks down the electorate into all kinds of demographics, age, race, sex, race and sex, educational attainment, so on and so forth. In none of those subcategories do you see a number even close to 70% for Proposition 8 -- except their 75% figure for African American women. Now surely, goofy religious types bear a lot of the blame here, but it is undeniable that African Americans voted for Proposition 8 by an astonishing margin and that their votes counted. Indeed, they were enough to put it over the top. If they had voted 49%-51%, like white and Asian voters, the measure probably would not have passed.

        Now you may question the propriety of noting these sorts of facts, but the numbers are what they are. 70% is an astonishing number. No amount of playing with the numbers and arguing tiny margins within sampling error can negate that basic fact. 70% for.



        And if you see her... Tell her it's over now!

        by Vincenzo Giambatista on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 05:29:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The world is coming to an end. (8+ / 0-)

          I'm recommending Vincenzo.

          The other question is, if the 70% number is wrong, then what is the correct number for black voters voting in favor of Prop 8?

          "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

          by homogenius on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:27:17 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I basically agree (9+ / 0-)

          I don't think black Californians are any more to blame than anyone else who voted Yes on Prop 8.

          But I do think any minority people who oppose marriage equality need to take a look in the mirror. Latinos and Asians included. And I say this as a minority person myself.

          I know the extent of this is probably being exaggerated, but I've heard too many stories about black and Latino people who say that the gay rights struggle is not equivalent to the civil rights struggle of the 1960s.

          The only reason I think any minority person would say that is because at some level they believe that being gay is a either a choice or a disease. These are the same arguments once made against interracial marriage, integration of the armed forces, integration of schools, and so on. If being gay is something someone is born with, then that's just like being born black or brown or yellow, and the same marriage equality should apply.

          I have also read that those who voted Yes on Prop 8 are on the wrong side of history, that the young people are increasingly supportive of gay rights. But, just as with the civil rights struggles, time alone will not work magic. As Martin Luther King said, people of ill will have often made better use of time than people of good will. There is nothing magic about the passage of time that will ensure that people will all get equal rights. People need allies working for them, the way white Jews and Gentiles - many of them gay, no doubt - helped black people and Latinos in the 1960s. Now gay people are the ones who need allies in their civil rights struggle.

          I think it makes sense to correct any factual errors that might be used to blame one group more than another, but I also think at a certain point you have to say, you know what, regardless of race, people across the board did wrong by voting for Prop 8. None of them should be blamed more or less for that decision.

          •  It is different but not because of this: (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            fcvaguy, saintsaetia

            The only reason I think any minority person would say that is because at some level they believe that being gay is a either a choice or a disease.

            Those are just opposition talking points ... as usual, they are lies.

            The struggle is different because it is a struggle against discrimination, and doesn't have the element of slavery that preceeded the Civil Rights movement.

            This does not diminish the fight for equality, but it is a distraction to look for equivalence ... it doesn't further the argument.

            What we need is simply a Constitutional Amendment to protect equal rights not based soley on race, sex, disability ets .... just adding the word sexuality will take care of the entire legal position.

            If we can't get a Constitutional Amendment, then a Federal Law banning discrimination based on race, sex, disability and sexuality would be an excellent start. States can then amend their Constitutions until the cows come home, but Federal Law will negate them.

            If the argument is not framed as Gay Marriage, but borne of anti-discrimination legislation, much of the red meat is cooked already

            We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

            by twigg on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:52:06 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think what lastamendment was saying (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              homogenius, twigg, lastamendment

              was perhaps the difficulty in getting people to come around to seeing this as a discrimination issue is because they believe those talking points-- and your comment about a lack of a huge wrong like slavery to relate to a gay struggle adds to their lack of empathy.  

              I'm not so sure there isn't an equivalency- or that searching for one is counterproductive.  I always think that a key element to getting people of different backgrounds, religions, races, attitudes, etc- to live together peacefully with some degree of mutual respect is to see what they have in common, to be able to step into the shoes of the other guy to see the world from his perspective.

              Trying to see what one subjugated group shares with another - especially in relation to the dominant culture doing the judging and subjugating-  can be a bridge to understanding, I think.  Blacks, women, Jews, gays- have all been deemed by a dominant culture to be less than equal because they are significantly different from the culture in power.  Their differentness is inherent in their identities- (who they are) and is expressed in a way that differs from that of a dominant culture.

              I'm all for whatever legal argument for equality best furthers the cause- but I still think it helpful to continue to remind people of what we share- what it feels like to be "me" and how it's really not so different from "you".  

              •  Sounds like we are all pretty close to (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Zulia, No Looking Back

                the same Hymn sheet :)

                Here is the reason that I prefer the discrimination approach, and am keen to stay away from the marriage or even worse gay marriage label.

                Leaving aside, for the moment "gay marriage". It's a nonsense concept which of itself is labelling and discriminatory. There are no degrees of marriage. You are either married or single. Gay marriage is not different from straight marriage, so let's quit buying into this ridiculous phrase as it helps the bigots frame their argument.

                My reason for wanting to get away from the marriage argument (although I do not diminish it's import for those wanting to marry) is that this argument is NOT about marriage, but about civil rights. In that respect it is the same as any other civil rights matters.

                Much of the objection comes from the various churches ..... but here is the thing ....

                Marriage is not a matter for the churches. It is none of their business, and their poking the noses into marriage is a direct breach of 1st Amendment Rights, the right to live free from the influence of religion.

                When will the churches be forced to realise that marriage is a civil matter, and NOT a religious one. Churches may marry people, but the contract is made with the State. Churches Bless Marriages, they do not make them.

                Churches will always remain free to bless or otherwise as their perogative.

                Somehow the Right is able to brand a civil rights matter as a religious crusade. It isn't, it never was and shouldn't be engaged as such.

                By and large, the opposition to gay rights seems to come from the various fundamentalist religions. I am wondering if a 1st Amendment challenge to a refusal of a State to issue a marriage license might gain some traction once we can shift the balance on SCOTUS.

                Pardon my meandering typing .... just trying to think things through.

                We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

                by twigg on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:42:09 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hey- enjoyed hearing it! (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  twigg, lastamendment

                  And  am totally with you about how this really isn't about religion per se- if 2 straight people can get married at the courthouse so should a same sex couple. No one is trying to - or could force churches to marry gays.  It's about legal rights of marriage- absolutely.

                   Other pet peeve: whatever it is called- civil union or marriage- then it should apply to same and opposite sex couples.  The commonly accepted term for this legal union is "marriage" - so it should be called that for everyone.  People get SO hung up on the word "marriage"!

                  •  Thanks, Zulia - here's another try (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    twigg, Zulia

                    Thanks for your comments. They essentially cover what I was saying, and I think we all essentially agree.

                    But here's my take based on the diary above and twigg's comments:

                    I totally understand correcting any myths that would seek to pin sole blame on black people for the passage of Prop 8.

                    On the other hand, I do think those minority people (black people included) who voted for Prop 8 need to do some soul-searching. I also think this statement by twigg misunderstands what I meant about equivalence:

                    The struggle is different because it is a struggle against discrimination, and doesn't have the element of slavery that preceeded the Civil Rights movement.

                    This does not diminish the fight for equality, but it is a distraction to look for equivalence ... it doesn't further the argument.

                    What I mean by equivalence is:

                    1. The need for gay people to have allies the same way black people did, not because oppression of gay people has been as bad as slavery but simply because it is oppression just the same. I'm sure there are some Jews who thought the Holocaust was worse than slavery, but that did not keep them from becoming Freedom Riders.
                    1. The need for equal protection under the law. Rick "man on boy, man on dog" Santorum notwithstanding, a gay marriage is a marriage between two unrelated consenting human adults. It's not incest, polygamy, pedophilia, bestiality or in any other way different from straight marriage except for the same sex of the participants.
                    1. Furthermore, because the objection to the same-sex nature of gay marriage is primarily religious, there is no civil justification for denying marriage equality on the grounds that the participants are gay. Churches, synagogues, etc., are free not to marry gay people, but there is no good reason why a civil court should be able to refuse equal marriage rights to gay people.

                    In short, the main point is that Prop 8 represents a lack of any moral or even legal justification for denying gay people the same right to marriage that straight people have. And supporting Prop 8 does not appear to be due to the fact that black people suffered under slavery and gay people didn't.

                    Rather, support of Prop 8 has to, at some level, involve an acceptance of the fear of and bias against being gay, as I mentioned before, the same way it used to be - and in some places still is - against black people. If someone doesn't think that being gay is somehow wrong - a sin or a disease - then I can't see how they could have voted Yes on Prop 8 - especially if they are from a minority background. I think we need to confront that bias, whether it's conscious or unconscious, in our minority communities even as we rightly correct any attempts to scapegoat us for being responsible for anti-gay policies.

                    Peace,
                    Lastamendment

                    •  I think we are in complete agreement! (0+ / 0-)

                      esp. your third point which is, almost word for word the point I have made several times (did you steal it?) heh!

                      My point about equivalence is a narrow one. I most certainly agree that their are parallels and similarities, and that the GLT struggle is a Civil Rights matter, it is just that the race issue is deeper, and historically more significant for most Americans. This is not to say, however, that there exists a pecking order of rights.

                      I have little knowledge on the history or influences on the black community, that might make them more likely than the pop. as a whole to vote yes to prop 8.

                      However, if this attitude is an accurate reflection, then surely it is borne of ignorance, and is ripe for education not recrimination.

                      I still think, by the way, that a refusal to treat GLT members equally is a breach of the 1st Amendment due mainly to the clear situation that the entirety of the opposition to Gay marriage is a theological argument. We are to live free from religion, as well as to respect freedom of religion.

                      We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

                      by twigg on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:56:06 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  What Part of (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          taylormattd, lazybum, No Looking Back

          Me quoting CNN's own description of its methodology and the actual demographics from the state did you choose to ignore in your analysis?  Looks like most of it.

          •  What did the FL exit polls show on the same issue (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            homogenius
          •  But you set up a straw man. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            brendani

            I didn't see any comments that said "Black people are responsible for passing Prop 8". What I read was people being upset that 70% of African-American voters supported it.

            If the 70% figure is incorrect, then what is the correct number? I realize that 70% is an uncomfortable figure to deal with. But all you did was attack the methodology and analyze whether the number of black votes could have put it over the top. That's bullshit.

            "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

            by homogenius on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:53:50 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I saw a lot of comments saying that exact thing (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Wizznilliam

              that "Black people are responsible for passing Prop 8," that the margin Prop 8 passed by was exactly the difference between 70% of the AA vote for and 30% of the AA vote against.It made me back away from dK for more than 24 hours.  

              You may not have seen those comments, but they were definitely there, and garnering a lot of recs, and in numbers that frankly shocked me.

              Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust! - Daffy Duck

              by bearfootin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 10:17:54 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Uh, what? (0+ / 0-)

                Those comments are one hundred percent accurate. Look, we have a Democratic coalition including various racial minorities (chiefly African Americans), women, labor unions, and social liberals including gay folk. There's a tension here -- on matters relating to gay rights, African Americans, in aggregate, aren't on board, to the tune of about 40 points.

                You can shockedly sputter all you want, but on some level one needs to recognize basic facts like this when formulating political analysis and strategy. Sitting around whining that numbers and facts are immoral or inconsistent with your ideology doesn't make you a good person, it just turns you into a flake.



                And if you see her... Tell her it's over now!

                by Vincenzo Giambatista on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 01:24:17 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  I'm Sorry You Didn't See Them (0+ / 0-)

              Including what looks like more than 25 in this very thread.  Or the others that folks have linked.

              Perhaps there is an important reason you're "not seeing them."  But I cannot help you with that.

          •  I addressed that. (0+ / 0-)

            That was, amongst other things, what I was calling bullshit. There is nothing wrong with their methodology and there is no reason to suspect it would give an inaccurate account of the demographics.



            And if you see her... Tell her it's over now!

            by Vincenzo Giambatista on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:04:07 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Blame the 2% or blame the other 50% (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Gooch, lazybum, saintsaetia

          If a proposition passes with 52% of the vote does it make sense to focus all the vitriol on the 2% who made up the victory margin? Wouldn't it make more sense to focus on the 50% who made that victory margin possible?

      •  Just wanted to point something out (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gooch

        Hi shanikka,

        Just wanted to say that I've never heard of people going to jail for not voting (even for long periods) in Australia.

        People are fined if they are registered to vote and don't end up doing so.  The fine is (or was) about $50 or $60.  I haven't heard of anyone going to jail for not voting in Australia - and I'm an Australian who's lived here my entire life, who's worked in media and who's worked as an advisor to a cabinet minister.

        So - perhaps you know something I don't - otherwise it simply isn't the case that an Australian would face jail for not voting.  We do have exemptions to voting in Australia - religious reasons, professional reasons (journalists can apply for exemption) and I imagine there are other cases for exemption too.  Even though voting is compulsory, if someone isn't registered to vote, they will not end up on the rolls which are marked off on election day, which means it would be unlikely they would get caught for not voting.  

        The other thing is, people can cast 'informal' votes if they are unhappy with either major political party.  Informal votes are those which cannot be counted as part of the final tally - and are therefore voided.  This is usually considered a form of protest against the major candidates or parties.

      •  Yea! Bravo! (0+ / 0-)

        Thank you so much! Fantastic, punchy writing and Truth. Great combo.

        "True peace is not merely the absence of tension -- it is the presence of justice." MLK

        by dhaemeon on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 05:46:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  TY! The truth is not so pure or simple! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lazybum

        CA has significant problems for blacks that just are not commonplace conversation. It's like there are Two Californias, (to paraphrase JE) and those are economic, not racial. About two years ago I was on Daily Kos and mentioned the gang problem in the LA Greater Metro, esp. San Bernardino. I was met with, "well I live in SB and have never encountered any gangs" blah blah. Well, in white collar land, we work long hours, coupled with the long commutes in Socal, our personal, anecdotal evidence might not be anywhere like the whole enchilada.

        The standards of living were offensively low in some areas. A majority of my coworkers in LA were black or immigrants and the wages were pathetic, the hours unreasonable, and that's not talking about the commute and the actual work itself. No one should be surprised blacks are moving when the cost of living is so high and the stresses from a struggling urban life are simply not as promising as opting out. I spent months in CA where I barely ate, but the whites I talked with often seemed surprised that I couldn't afford shoes, or food.

        Passive aggressive racial scapegoating is a lot more common in California than its relatively educated-liberal whites might often like to admit. For instance, four ballot measures in February that penalized casinos. Which increased revenues for schools from extremely impoverished Indian tribes, but which white millionaires did not have to contribute to. Discrepancy much?

        Wall Street pirates loot this country, destroy people's lifelong work and their pensions. If you need to execute someone, shoot those motherfuckers.

        by Nulwee on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 05:48:25 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  AWESOME DIARY. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mj171976, bearfootin, Firecrawler09

        I'm glad someone is finally stepping up to counter these bullshit diaries blaming black people for the passage of Prop 8, when the fault lies in the incompetence and apathy of the No on 8 campaign itself.

      •  The black community and its homophobic tendencies (4+ / 4-)

        can go to hell for all I care. 70% of blacks voted for Prop 8. Enough said.

        I'm just going to repost some statements I made in another diary on this subject. My disgust with the black community at this point knows no bounds.

        I blame black people as a black person.

        My community has some of the most bigoted and backward mindsets around, and it's in many cases due to heavy religious indoctrination and/or lack of education.

        It's one of the reasons I left the black community at large behind.

        There is just no place for me in it as a black gay man as far as I'm concerned. And the Prop 8 vote did nothing to change that thought.

        I help those who choose to help themselves.

        When you grow up in a community where your peers and their parents demean your attempts to make something of yourself as "acting white" and call you, by proxy, a pedophile when you're only 13yr old and in the closet, then yea. There's no room there for me.

        For those who choose to help themselves and are successful, I deal with them. For others, they can kiss my sorry ass.

        I just have a significant amount of anger to those hypocritical buffoons these days and how they've treated gay people.

        It's just unconscionable.

        I turned away from the "black community" years ago. This lopsided Prop 8 vote by the black community just further cemented why I did that in the first place.

        I take nothing back from what I said. The people that voted to take away the rights of others while voting for a black man and crying tears about how far tolerance and acceptance in this country has come are idiotic buffoons.

        President Barack Hussein Obama - #44

        by Yalin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:02:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Don't use the black community as a scapegoat ... (0+ / 0-)

          for your pain.   Clearly you had a bad experience being a gay male in the black community, but #1.  black people aren't monolithic #2.  not every black person hurt you when you were growing up so you're not hurting a soul by  turning "away from" the black community ... do whatever you gotta do to make your black self feel better and  #3.  there were many straight whites, asians, latinos etc. that voted the same as the blacks that you're telling to go to hell ... you want to tell them to go to hell too?

          Clearly, you have an issue with the black community.  I would suspect that you would be telling black folks to go to hell no matter what the stats say.  

      •  I think your efforts will pay off. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mj171976, No Looking Back

        Anyone who continues the vile race-baiting bullshit that's been going on here since Tuesday after this diary hit the rec list is nothing but a troll or a very bitter, bigoted Leftie (and yes, we know they exist).

        "The goal of an argument should not be victory, but progress." - my fortune cookie

        by Black Leather Rain on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:05:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mj171976

        Excellent diary full of facts! A lot of otherwise rational people here are extremely hurt by the outcome and they're letting their emotions run their mouths. It'll calm down and we can focus our rage on the bigots responsible for writing and funding this proposition. Thanks very much for putting all of this together, I know that it will help redirect some of the misplaced blame to where it belongs.

      •  yikes (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        terrypinder, lovelyivy

        I can't imagine how long it took you to put this together. Thanks. Some good ammo here.

        I haven't seen the racist comments...mostly because I haven't read a lot of Prop. 8 diaries.

        I don't think it's racist to posit or discuss whether "minority" populations (whether Asian, Latino, Black) disproportionally voted for Prop. 8 unless people persist to do so in the face of the facts or make racist statements at all. If the facts bore out that a particular population supported it more than another, I also don't think it's racist to say that.

        I guess I'm saying it's a valid inquiry until you know the facts.

        But people aren't thinking if they believe any population other than the majority of voters passed Prop. 8. In 2004, a year with a lower voter turnout than 2008, 11 states passed anti-gay marriage ballot measures. Those states are Oregon, Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Ohio and Utah. Several of those states have extremely small minority populations.

        I think it's time to realize that the majority of Americans do not support gay marriage. Period.

        It may be years before that changes. Until that time, there is much work to do in all communities and churches.

      •  Thank you (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mj171976, lovelyivy

        And it's about damn time. I could not believe how successful this issue was in being EXACTLY the wedge issue it was designed to be. I understand the anger. But scapegoating people on our side of the issue was disgusting and inexcusable. I am ashamed.

        Thank you, again.

        I still root for the dreamer. I thank God for the dreamer ~ Mos Def, Lifetime

        by alkalinesky on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:33:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thank You, shannika (4+ / 0-)

        Also, I'm thinking about writing a diary on religion in the black community and how it impacted this vote as well.

        Also, I was talking to my Mom yesterday and she told me that being gay is not genetic, so if gays don't want to be discriminated against, they have choice. This is probably the main issue going on here. She said blacks don't have a choice. I told her it's genetic but she wouldn't hear it. I told her, if you believe that, you can at least believe that people should be able to have the right to be married. And I told her even at that that she wasn't gay, so it isn't any of her business. She told me, she agrees with that. I told her you should vote in favor of gay marriage with the thinking that she's not gay, so why should she care who gets married or not. (Anyway, that's a little rambling)

        Thank you again for the diary. I wrote one of the very first FP diaries on this that the population of California has to be taken into account here and also turnout. I was using logic and common sense here. The fact that people are going by exit polls that are usually wrong is ridiculous.

        To err is human. To forgive, divine.

        by Highwind on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 06:35:06 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  By the way, shanikka (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        No Looking Back

        This is the first time I've seen anyone on DKos mention the statistics for black population here in San Francisco as they relate to gentrification issues. It's a dismaying situation. Even since I've lived here (1993), there's been a noticeable decrease, especially in the Fillmore/Western Addition.

        I think it bears further discussion in the future.

      •  As a gay man (2+ / 0-)

        I'm not blaming anybody -- except every other person I come into contact with. I don't trust anybody unless they personally tell me they voted No. Period.

        (P.S. There are about 4 million uncounted votes in California, so you numbers will be off, at least on turnout. But I'm not disputing your point.)

        Peace.

        The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers. -Thomas Jefferson

        by PeteyP on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:36:21 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I read this (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Carnacki

        and I think about what would have happened on this site if Barack Obama had lost, and I totally feel for you.  Even if there were a kernel of truth to this myth it sucks to be tarred with a broad brush, and it's worse when the myth is untrue.

        The blaming and hating of white people, rural people, and Southern people on this site would have been intense had Obama lost.  It's been pretty nasty on here anyway, as Carnacki's recent diary where he/she felt the need to point out the evidence for no statistically significant difference in racism in WV illustrates.  The roar of "you Southerners suck" that would have been directed at all those of us who happen to be geographically located between Ohio and Florida would have been deafening.

        There were not enough supporters in the battle to win, and that is all the loss says.  Blaming and flaming one subgroup isn't going to help your case with that group.  As I'm sure our new President would tell you.

      •  there is a long (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lexicon

        and disgusting history of this here at DKos. It started in the primaries.

        Thank you shanikka.

        John McCain, 100 years in Iraq "fine with me"

        by taylormattd on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:49:09 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for all that hard work. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lexicon

        I currently know about 7 black people well enough to know how they'd vote. One is gay. The other six I wouldn't insult by questioning how they voted. Of course they all voted no on H8. They're journalists, musicians and artists. Not idiots.

      •  If any group can be held responsible (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        crazyamerican, No Looking Back

        It is the Mormons.  They spent $25 million spreading hate and lies in CA over this. Second are white fundamantalists, of whom there are many more in CA.  Just look at the people in the Yes on 8 victory party.  The counties with the highest black population (line Alameda) voted heavily against 8.  There needs to be  more outreach but holding black people responsible for an effort conceived by the Mormons and funded primarily by them and Catholics is wrong.

        John McCain--he's not who you think he is.

        by Mimikatz on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:56:52 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  My anger is directed at the heirarchy of the (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dc20005, wbr, saintsaetia, No Looking Back

        Mormon and Catholic Churches. The vitriol, lies and hate spewed by them will always be unforgivable to me.

        Do good, Seek justice - Barack Obama

        by hideinplainsight on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:07:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I don't know what the hell happened (6+ / 0-)

        here while I was away on business right after the election, but from your diary, I can guess.

        Come on guys, we're all on the same team here!  Gay folks have been scapegoated enough times (Remember the Kerry election?  It was teh gayz!!!!) to know better.

        The no on 8 campaign sucked.  We were complacent and unprepared and we shouldn't have been.  Shame on us.

        There's no point in blaming someone else for our own inadequacies.

        •  THE IRONY (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          saintsaetia, From a distance

          I think that you've come closest to pointing out the irony I see in all this.
          In '04, a poor presidential campaign lost, and people immediately blamed us gays for ruining it with our gay marriage rights and all that scariness.
          And now, in '08, a slow and unimpressive campaign for gay rights lost, and many people are trying to blame blacks, or even blame Barack Obama and his campaign.
          Look, trying to blame the Obama presidential campaign for actually trying to get Obama elected president is patently ridiculous.  And thinking that it is somehow Barack's responsibility to wave his magic black wand and solve the gay rights movement's difficult relations with the black community, rather than taking up that work ourselves, is fatuous.  It's our movement, we have to take responsibility, including with better outreach to blacks, not just white elites.
          And in the bigger picture, we have to accept that BOTH electing a Democratic president AND getting gay marriage are important, and we have to stop pitting those two causes against each other.  It is immature and fatuous.  And as I've pointed out elsewhere, if we compare black voters to other white voters of similar levels of education, income, and religious background, I think we'd likely find that they are more sympathetic to gay rights than equivalent whites.

      •  Yes, rec'd and tipped... (0+ / 0-)

        I too have extremely disturbed but the comments on this topic - thank you for addressing this and writing such a compelling diary.

        Peace & Love & HOPE

        by wbr on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:15:17 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I can vote any way I want to right? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lexicon

        I don't live in Cali so didn't get to vote on this issue but would have voted to keep homosexuals from having the right to marry.  I don't care how much you espew hate toward me you cannot take away this simple fact--people get to vote the way they want to.

        By being so nasty and negative you are simply pushing more and more people away from you and your goals.  I detest the fact that you are blaming black people for the failure.  If you cannot get enough votes for what you want, GOTV and try, try again.  Otherwise STHU.

        Just because you are a democrat doesn't mean you approve of gay rights.  I for one am totally against it.  

        Ok, now go ahead and talk about me but who cares?

      •  Welcome (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lexicon

        Black is the new Nader voter. Welcome to Scapegoat World.

      •  You did what I wanted to do.... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lexicon, golden star, saintsaetia

        I heard this allegation at andrew sullivan's site at first, so I got mad. Then I checked and double checked numbers. Thanks for showing the simple math.

        Moving forward, alot of white gays/lesbians really need to consider what white skin privilege means, what it really, truly means, why the campaign for No on 8 sucked, and to really, truly start working with gay minorities. We as a country don't need Prop 8, and we dont need the remnants of sexual bigotry, closeting, and white skin privilege either.

      •  I HR'd that guy too (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Firecrawler09

        I dumped my whole load of HRs that day on racist crap on Prop 8 diaries.

        I know I'm like, comment 1500 or something here and you'll never read it, but YOU GO GIRL!

      •  God bless you for writing this (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lexicon

        I've really enjoyed contributing here but I was one step from GBCW with the unbridled racism I was seeing.  I can't imagine how gay black people must feel with the double sword of not only losing the right to marry, but hearing it was their fucking fault because of their skin color.  

        Yes! Yes! Oh let me taste your tears, Republicans! Oh, the tears of unfathomable sadness! Mmm-yummy! Mmm-yummy -Eric Cartman

        by Adept2u on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:06:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Bless Your Heart, shanikka (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lexicon, Firecrawler09

        As a black gay man, I've been raw. We have a lot to confront in our families, but this scapegoating is foul. Thanks for the laying out the facts.

        Brilliantly blessed are those who walk with courage through the depths of the own fear, for they will Love from the bottom of their heart.

        by Craig Hickman on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:11:17 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I wish I could rec this diary 1000 times... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lexicon, Firecrawler09

        I'm sick and tired of seeing the same people who extol the Democratic Party's tolerance making utter hypocrites of themselves whenever an opportunity for bigotry presents itself.  All too often around here,  I see it: the people who fight for gay rights make racist tirades, the people who fight for a Palestinian state (or for Lieberman's removal from the caucus) launch into anti-Semitic invective, the people who fight for equality for women attack a female politician who disagrees with them for being a bad mother (or refer to her as a "bimbo" or a "Barbie")...and the list goes on.

        It's sickening, it's hypocritical, and it's deeply offensive.  Take the beam out of your own eye first, DailyKos.

        Lots of planets have a Midwest!

        by Elsinora on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:25:17 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you, thank you, thank you (0+ / 0-)

        For this diary.  I have been sick to death of the garbage coming out of people's mouths here about this.  I get that people are angry -- and want to have someone to blame -- but to try and place blame on one group of people (ignoring the reality re: the sheer numbers) is just fucked up and wrong.  Haven't we been asking people to "Say no to H8?" for these past months and weeks?  How can we ask that of others, when we cannot do it ourselves.  We need to start making sure our own house is in order.

        Welcome to California: land of sunshine and bigotry.

        by TichMarie on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:55:11 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  the diary title offends me (0+ / 0-)

        Black People being scapegoated?  By whom?  

        Granted, I haven't read every comment & every diary.  But I've seen a hell of a lot of defensiveness and denial and false umbrage from folks unwilling to accept the fact that the AA vote was a factor in the passage of prop 8.

        Please tell me when will the time be right for equality for ALL?

        We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct-action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant 'Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."


        — Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
        Letter from Birmingham Jail




        ````
        peace

      •  shanikka!!! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theran

        I've missed you! You disappeared after the primaries and I have been wondering where you've been.

        Anyway, I had been listening to talk radio since this broke, and the consensus was that while black folks voted en masse to elect Barack Obama, they also voted en masse to ban gay marriage. Since I know nothing about California, I am sad to admit that this black chick found that "fact" disturbing. Are we as a people that close-minded? I didn't think so, but the "evidence" seemed to suggest it. I personally should have not been too lazy not to do my own research.

        BUT then again, I expected more from progressives. The gay vs. black battle seemed on the brink.

        Thanks for the breakdown.

        President-elect Barack HUSSEIN Obama!!! Eat it, suckaz!

        by mselite on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 10:31:16 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  You are incorrect about ex-felons needing to be (0+ / 0-)

        officially re-enfranchised in California. From the Los Angeles County Registrar Recorder, "An ex-felon may register to vote and is eligible to vote in elections if he/she is not currently in prison or on parole for a felony conviction."

        I was a pollworker this week and we had "voting guide for inmates" information included in our training materials. Here is the same information from the California Secretary of State
        http://www.sos.ca.gov/...

      •  You'll always have a share of folks (0+ / 0-)

        who just exist on this blog to stir the pot.  Thank you for your diary.

        Yes, Prop 8 was a buzzkill on Tuesday, but then again, too much euphoria can make us lose our focus.  There are so many people whose citizenship, not to mention humanity, is not fully realized.

        For a variety of reasons.

        Personally, I'd like to see government get out of the marriage business.  If two people wish to set up a legal union, the government can make ways to recognize that.  I, personally draw the line at more than two people, but someday, that might not be an issue as well.  

      •  Awesome job, shanikka. Just awesome. (0+ / 0-)

        You are amazing.

        Most of all, thank you for setting everyone straight. I'd heard the "blacks were responsible" line on NPR on the way home from work today.  It just didn't make sense until I realized how much I distrust most assertions of this nature from anyone in the msm. Then I didn't trust what they were saying.

        I'm Ron Shepston and I'm not done yet. There's much left to accomplish.

        by CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 07:03:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  What I haven't seen mentioned, (0+ / 0-)

        though I must admit I haven't read all 1800 (!) comments, is a feeling of betrayal as a source of anger among glbt's. They expect nothing less than unfairness from LDS or the straight population at large, but for another persecuted group to be unfair to them... it has symbolic strength that puts their vote in high relief compared to other groups. The high (unrealistic) expectations of the no on 8 movement for support from the black community was dashed. [And, it seems, the  expectations for support from rank & file Obama voters was also unrealistic.]

        The only thing that depressed me more this week than Prop 8 passing was the dishing of blame for Prop 8, and the polarizing, angry comments.

        Your diary was angry, but it was righteous anger, justifiable anger, focused anger, linked and argued anger. Good work. Only a healer can be as rational as you in the midst of such a storm.

    •  Thanks. There's a lot of problems with the meme (27+ / 0-)

      "the blacks are responsible for Prop. 8 passing."

      First of all, this is based on extrapolations from "exit poll" data, which is notoriously inaccurate.  (And certainly NOT scientific.)

      Secondly there's no way to know how many black Californians actually VOTED for Prop. 8.  Many certainly voted just for the top offices, as many Californians do who don't wanna wade through our lengthy ballot.  There were probably thousands who voted Obama, and then dropped their ballots in the box without voting anything else.

      And finally, the shere numbers of "white" people voting for Prop 8 dwarfed the black vote, REGARDLESS of the percentage of black voters who actually voted for Prop 8.  (And "white" people were the folks who put the thing on the ballot in the first place.)  

      It may be interesting to "discover" that gay culture isn't well understood among many black Californians, but that's about all you can really glean from these exit poll numbers.  

      No one can seriously conclude that "black people" are responsible for Prop 8 passing.

    •  Everybody deal: Yes meant no and no meant yes (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      No Looking Back

      I don't care that there was a Proposition in 2000.  This was eight years later and the campaign for Yes was, statewide, as constant and commanding as the campaign for No was in dribbles and weak.

      What it says is that California is not some blue sure-thing.  Go look at California in the Dailykos Scoreboard.  Notice how many Republican Members of Congress California provides.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4syxU

      by algebrateacher on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 05:38:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Very thorough and sobering, reminiscent of (0+ / 0-)

      more of that herd mentality, that supports the notion that we can believe what people on TV tell us. This was a real shitty way for CNN to put it.  See my moniker.

      42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot. A Wrightism

      by publicv on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 08:09:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  THIS DIARY IS BULLSHIT (3+ / 0-)

      I'm sure I'll get some guilty liberal love in the form of HRs, but I need to say this so do your worst.

      First of all, citing overall demographic statistics to somehow "prove" black people aren't bigots is avoiding the point altogether. For many, the REAL number here is the overwhelming percentage of African American voters who supported discrimination against another group. It was overwhelming. Enough said. Who cares if they actually tipped the scale in favor of Prop 8, I don't think they did and I do not care. The point is that they overwhelmingly approved it, and that's a huge, ironic problem given our history.

      Adding to that point, I find it ironic beyond belief that the diarist, in the process of making their case, proceeds to declare that the justice system is racist because a large percentage of black men are, or have been, incarcerated for felonies and therefore cannot vote. Every time I hear this argument it saddens me, because it is a stark reminder that the African American community is in many ways the single largest barrier to its own uplifting.

      As long as black people pretend that the problem is the justice system, rather than the indisputable fact that young black men are turning to crime in frightening numbers, they will never overcome certain social challenges. In the past 5 years here in the Bay Area, I have had over a dozen friends and family robbed at knife/gunpoint, and it was, in every single case, a black male under the age of 25 (in several cases, as young as 14!!!). This is not only anecdotal but completely representative of violent crime statistics in California in general. Until African Americans at large say ENOUGH and work their asses off to change the behaviors within their own community, including parenting, schooling and the youth, people will shed few tears when they hear how many black men are in prison, and they certainly won't buy into the line that the justice system is the problem. PROVE the racism by changing the behavior of these kids, and if the incarceration rate doesn't change, then I'll agree with you.

      Generally speaking, it's almost laughable to cry "judicial racism" while discussing how black people, at least in California and in this particular election, showed no mercy in actively discriminating against another group.

  •  Good diary. (16+ / 0-)

    It's important to get this filth out of the systems of those who are still smarting over Prop 8 and make sure it's dealt with appropriately.

    Now, I've seen some people who say that they wish Obama would have said something in California to the tune of

    "This is a historic election, yes, but as you go to the polls to make history, I urge all my supporters in California to not write new discrimination, no different from the old racist interracial marriage laws, into the California Constitution. Please vote No on Prop 8."

    Now, yes, that might have cost him in the G.E., but some people here do think he should have done it, and I think they have the right to that opinion.

    And that message, of course, would not be singularly targeted at black people. It would be targeted at every California Obama supporter.

    It's a pity he didn't do it, but I understand what a difficult position he was in, with how unpopular gay marriage is in the country as a whole. I hope that now that he's elected, he can be more openly supportive.

    I think a valid criticism is that Obama could have done a lot more to knock Prop 8 down. It is, however, completely irresponsible and just plain incorrect to blame 'black people' for it.

  •  That is a long slog for this time of night. (24+ / 0-)

    I can't say that I read the whole thing. But one fact jumps out. 4 million absentee voters. I'm one- and I doubt that anyone can tell what race I am. Blame the Mormons and the Catholic Church for blatant electioneering in violation of their tax-exempt status, if you're inclined to blame someone.

    Don't waste donuts. 2 will do.

    by Karl Rover on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 01:01:51 AM PST

  •  Yours is a serious and well (15+ / 0-)

    written diary and I am glad you posted it. I have recently thought that the Gay community should organize their own church. Get tax breaks to educate .  There seem to be more protections for a church than for civil rights.

  •  Yeah, I was very dismayed... (39+ / 0-)

    ...to see the racism flung around here about Prop. 8.  People who voted for Prop. 8 should be ashamed.  People who go blaming whole races of other people for the outcome should be ashamed.  Grow the fuck up, people.

  •  As I keep saying (11+ / 0-)

    EVERYONE who voted for Prop 8 should be judged the same.

    Some people have been angry and have said some things out of anger (anger I agree with) they'll regret later, but I don't think those people are racist.  

    And I also think, while there's no way you can account for the margin of victory, it strikes people as somewhat difficult to comprehend that the AA community, given their history with civil rights, would endorse taking other people's rights away to any degree whatsoever.

    If that's racism it's only because people might have expected AAs to be better than the rest of the society.  Not the same.

    how can it be permissable/ to compromise my principle. -- robert palmer

    by Edgar08 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 01:04:44 AM PST

  •  This needed to be said! (27+ / 0-)

    And said so well...I hope this makes the rec list, even tho it is so late.
    I donated against Prop H8, and am in deep shock and horror that it passed...
    but four out of every five dollars that powered it came from the LDS membership.

    Our enemies are the people who proposed and funded this...

  •  Oh, exhale... (35+ / 0-)

    Thank you for this

    Non-Black Votes in Favor of Proposition 8:

    White Men:  51% of 31% of 10,325,615 votes:  1,632,480 Yes
    White Women:  47% of 32% of 10,325,615 votes:  1,552,972 Yes
    Latino Men:  54% of 8% of 10,325,615 votes:  446,067 Yes
    Latino Women:  52% of 11% of 10,325,615 votes:   592,170 Yes
    Asian/Native:  51% of 9% of 10,325,615 votes:  473,946 Yes

    Total:  4,697,635 (9.3 times the maximum TOTAL number of Black votes in California.)

    ...block by block, brick by brick, calloused hand by calloused hand...(President Elect Barack Obama, 11/4/8)

    by begone on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 01:05:34 AM PST

    •  Another stat worth noting (10+ / 0-)

      Approximately 6.4 million people in CA voted for Obama.

      Only 4.9 million voted no on prop 8.  

      That's at least 1.5 million Obama voters who voted yes on prop 8 -- and probably more, as I'm sure there were some McCain voters who voted no on prop 8.  

      Using the diarists' estimates of African-American turnout, you can't avoid the conclusion that there were a large number of non-African-American voters who voted for Obama but voted yes on Prop 8.  

      Focusing only on African-American voters tells only a small piece of a very complex issue.

    •  I hadn't even looked at the exit polls (2+ / 0-)

      until this diary. my reaction, after seeing that each of those groups was 47-54% in favor vs the 70% number for AA's is wow. I think the diarist makes a strong case that even if the AA's had voted like whites and latinos 8 would still have passed. But that doesn't really address the fact that a group that voted 94% democratic voted (according to the exit polls) 70% for 8. My question is, why? As taboo as homosexuality is in  the latino community, they voted only slightly higher than whites, but blacks were much higher still. I don't know what the history is of the taboo within the AA community, but I'm going to try to learn.

  •  Those comments have made me wince, too (13+ / 0-)

    Exit polls and other statistics tracking voter opinions and behaviors, assuming they're accurate, are useful for guiding political education perhaps, but not for assigning blame. Individuals, not arbitrarily defined groups, are responsible for these vile ballot measures. Unfortunately, no person, regardless of his/her experience with prejudice, is above racism, homophobia, sexism, and so on.

    Another one people conveniently overlook here and elsewhere is ageism.

  •  And may this bullshit rest... (21+ / 0-)

    ...once and for all.  I'm done explaining it.  From now on, I'll refer all to this diary.

    November 4th, 2008: AMERICA WINS!

    by vcthree on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 01:08:49 AM PST

  •  I really, really want to tip and rec this diary.. (22+ / 0-)

    ....but the continued use of "white gay haters" in it gives me some pause.  I know you're reacting but I've been avoiding recommending diaries with that kind of language.  I agree with SO MANY of your points I desperately want to rec it but I am very, very torn on this one.  If I do, will you at least consider a revision? I know you're pissed by a lot of what you have read here and elsewhere, but that language just spoils a lot of the great substance here.

    "We're half awake in a fake empire."

    by Alec82 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 01:12:56 AM PST

  •  Thank you. (22+ / 0-)

    I've been saying the exact same thing to every commentator who spouted this bullshit. We are only a small portion of the population. And on a night that was especially joyous to AA this was an obvious killjoy, but they failed.At the rally wed.night in Hollywood LBGT campaign leaders were on bullhorns blasting Obama for his lack of support, which was so fucking funny considering that they only started bringing this to the publics attention A MONTH before Prop. 8 vote. There was no cohesive ground game. The LBGT community dropped the ball. Plain and simple. They were preaching to the choir in West Hollywood.

    "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in times of great moral crisis maintain their neutrality." - Dante

    by jazzence on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 01:17:34 AM PST

    •  Let's not blame the No on 8 folks (15+ / 0-)

      They did their best with what they had.

      The blame lies with the Mormon church. It's very, very hard to compete with a ground game made up of volunteers who think Jesus is tallying up heavenly brownie points for them with every dollar donated and door knocked on. This is exacerbated when your church's leadership TELLS ITS MEMBERS that God expects them to support Prop 8, all while rolling around in tax-exempt status dollars.

      •  In retrospect.. (23+ / 0-)

        If Obama had run a shoddily run campaign (and lost), no-one right now would be saying "Don't blame Obama, blame the republicans"

        The no on 8 campaign was poorly run and that definitely helped in the defeat. Perhaps even more than one racial minority voting one way or another.

        When you hear words like "Poorly run" and "Complacency" in regards to your own team, its time to look at the reasons and causes why.

        •  Can someone explain their strategy (12+ / 0-)

          I didn't see the internals that No On 8 used to plan their messaging and advertisement strategy, but based on the ads I saw, I really wondered what those numbers indicated, and what the ads were trying to accomplish.

          I understand the anger people feel about 8 passing, but right now it's important to understand and understand in a detached, analytical way what worked and what did not work.

          The ads struck me as tepid, poorly focused, and not clearly targeted.  I don't think they were particularly effective.  And this was very much unlike the Yes ads, which as dishonest and despicable as they might have been, were ruthlessly effective for particular portions of the electorate.  The Yes people knew who they were targeting, and they knew what to tell the people they were targeting.

          I don't that can be said for our side.

          "If another country builds a better car, we buy it. If they make a better wine, we drink it. If they have better healthcare . . . what's our problem? "

          by mbayrob on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 01:43:11 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  There's some truth to that... (7+ / 0-)

            I feel this was pretty much an e-mail campaign. I received I wanna say at least a hundred e-mails over the course of the campaign about this and that, and how we need money for this and whatnot... And yes outreach was there, but from what I gather, getting something as simple as a phone list was pretty difficult.

            The campaign received an abundance of volunteers on one of the last day of the campaign and had no idea what to do with them.

            The ads were the tip of the iceberg apparently... Some of them I really liked. Some were just downright baffling. I figured the target demographic was someone OTHER than me, and they spoke to those people...

            I'm beginning to realize that that clearly wasn't the case. But I received several e-mails from Geoffry Kors saying something to the effect that these ads really spoke to people and that when people saw their ads and ours, people chose ours. That they simply needed money to get them on the air and some volunteers to do phone calls (but much heavier emphasis on the money, so I donated)

          •  I'm sorry to be this honest... (19+ / 0-)

            I think the Official No on 8 campaign must have been run by former Clintont staffers looking for work after primaries.

            No insult intended to the Senator herself, but the mentality of the "sit on the lead in the polls and run a few ads" campaign her staff ran.

            We needed phone banking to have started at the begining of August.  We needed staff telling people "make your own yard signs" instead of "oh...they're comming".

            Somehow, it went from "it's in the bag" to "When will Obama/Feinstein/Maria Shriver/Hollywood save us".

            All I can say is that if several hundred thousand brave men hadn't died while Washington D.C. ignored a "gay disease" twenty years ago...we would have won.

            Somehow, the only group I can bring myself to really blame other than the Senile Salt Lake Mullahs are the people who denied the funds that may have helped those men live to fight Prop 8.  

            Because, God Knows, they were better fighters than us.

            The men and women of the White Night, of ActUP, of Harveys generation....wouldn't have waited for Cher to make a donation or some professional campaign to get around to mailing them a sign they ordered on the internet.

            •  A gentle reminder that many women have also (12+ / 0-)

              died from the so-called gay disease.

              As a long time Act-Up activist I agree, that those voices are sorely missed.  

              Too many of my friends, and family members are now just a patch on a quilt.

              The accusations here on Kos hurt me a lot, because I've been an in your face AIDS activist in the black and puerto rican community since before the founding of GMHC here in NY.  

              I support marriage as a civil union. Go downtown, get a license, be married by a clerk.  Period.  But I go farther than prop 8 since I also support polygyny and polyandry.  

              Let all people get civil licenses -
              what they decide to do, or not do as ritual in churches, temples, mosques, covens, circles...whatever should be their own choice.

              Straight, gay, lesbian, transgender, group - I don't care.  We need to get religion  out of the marriage business.

              Anthropologists for human diversity; opposing McCain perversity

              by Denise Oliver Velez on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 03:15:21 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I know and I'm sorry (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                roycej, Deoliver47, paintitblue, lovelyivy

                I was typing fast and kind of emotionally...I got it right in the second reference to history ;)

              •  Yes. Get Religion out of the marriage (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mrkvica, Deoliver47, nycjoc

                business. And get beyond the need to cling to the terminology (i.e., marriage). The patriarchal religions who stole the concept from the matriarchal ones in the first place are not likely  to let go of that any time soon.

                If it's about civil rights and if the same civil rights can be afforded under a civil union--can't we just take that and run with it?

                I never understood why any self-respecting woman would desire the sanctification of her union by an institution that has been as oppressive to women as the institution of marriage has been for the past 3,000 years or so.

        •  I remember seeing a lot of posts here (24+ / 0-)

          wondering WTF the "No on 8" people were doing with all the donations, and why they were taking so long to respond to the months of "Yes on 8" ads deluging CA.

          It took hekebolos to put one together, didn't it? and that only got put out there the last week of the campaign - too little too late even if it was a damn good ad.

          But hey, it's always more fun to blame a) Outside Forces, b) scapegoats - just look at all the happy times they're having at Red State with "Operation Leper" right now!

          "Don't be a janitor on the Death Star!" - Grey Lady Bast (change @ for AT to email)

          by bellatrys on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 03:04:05 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  ROFL (8+ / 0-)

            OMG... Thank you for that.. I'm going to bed, and that was the PERFECT comment to put me in a good mood.

            Holy Sweet Jeezus.. Operation Leper... I nearly cried just now from laughter.

            (And to reply more directly to your comment, the scapegoating, and blaming outside forces will pass, and resignation to the new battles ahead will take place)

            But I am slightly curious yes, where the hell did all our money go in prop 8? Those ads that only ran during the programs for people who were already going to vote No? (Ugly Betty comes to mind)

        •  Top down doesn't work (5+ / 0-)

          Campus GSA's weren't even contacted by the No campaign from what I hear.  They didn't make any outreach to PFLAG untill October.

          They offered no comments section.

          They offered no way to create groups on their site.

          They offered no way to create listserves.

          It's like they never even LOOKED at www.barackobama.com

          An Effective Campaign would have been BOMBING and STRAFFING awareness on every BHO Myspace and Facebook and trying to friend people from the "California for Obama" myspace and...and...

          We had a "wuts duh intertubes" team running this.  We only needed four more effin points.

      •  no, when a political campaign fails (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        taylormattd, Matt in AA, KimD

        it deserves some heat for running a half-assed, incompetent job.

        surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

        by wu ming on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 05:34:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  No, it was a horrible campaign. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        taylormattd, KimD

        Maybe all the people who know how to run a winning campaign were working for Obama, I don't know.

        If we don't learn from this colossal fiasco, we are doomed to repeat it.

    •  No on 8 ran a Bob Shrum/John Kerry campaign (7+ / 0-)

      It had all the hallmarks of a losing Democratic campaign from anytime in the last 30 years. They blew it, plain and simple. And judging from the email I got from them yesterday, they're just starting to figure it out, if at all.

      The radical clerics  lied and lied and lied, and it worked.

      Well, yeah. And nobody expected they this?

      "Rove's job, and by extension McCain's job, is to basically nuke reality and leave everything open to question." - dday

      by itswhatson on Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 04:51:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes He Can (0+ / 0-)

      sometime, in the next eight years, make a speech like the one made by the mayor of San Diego

      Instead of being angry at him for being an imperfect person (in my eyes and his), I'm just going to keep pushing in any way I can, and hoping.

  •  Racism, Bigotry and Homophobia! (14+ / 0-)

    I have to admit, when I saw the first exit polls I was a bit dismayed by the votes for and against.  When you see how one group voted and look at the others, it seems very lopsided and there is a tendancy to start placing blame.  It is a natural human instinct.  Is it the right instinct, no, but it is what we, as human beings do.  

    As a gay, white, jewish man, it is tough to see that African-Americans who voted, almost 3/4 voted for the Prop. 8.  Does it mean I am racist, I don't think so.  But, I have to ask myself:  How come the African-American community voted the way it did?  

    Prop. 8 may have still passed if the African-American community voted the way other demographic groups did.  Yet, the results would have been a lot closer.  

    What these results show me is that even though there are African-American gays, Latino gays, Jewish gays, Asian Gays, etc, the African-American community tends to be less tolerant than other groups on the subject of gay marriage.

    There is a lot of work to be done to erase homophobia and racism and bigotry from the world.  I think the best thing we can do is to learn from this experience and figure out how to best defeat racism, bigotry and homophobia, where ever it occurs.