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I have been on a meltdown, physically and emotionally.

As many know, I have been a far left partisan for Barack Obama.  I have been in the trenches since late spring of 2007 here.

I have ticked off many, point noted, but it happens in the primary wars.  You either have steel skin, or get out of the game.

But, now I am coming back here and starting a new, "This Week with President Barack Obama", but have to read a bunch of nonsense about Proposition 8 which passed in California, much to my chagrin.

First off, let's talk about how this was sold to the public in California.

I lived in California for 10 years before returning back to the Midwest.  This is a state that is forward thinking on every metric.  If there is any state in the union which motto fits, "so goes California, so goes the nation".  Yes, it is California.

Proposition 8 was a failure on many levels.  The most important failure was the lack of organization of those against the legislation to inform many Californians what was at stake.

Let me be clear here.  It is not African-Americans fault that this legislation was passed and not defeated.  Read this information of the break down here and get the statistical facts.

Selling Proposition 8 is the same as selling Barack Obama to this country.  Folks must be informed about what this legislation entails and must understand that this is about the everyday man's civil rights in this country.  This was not explained.

Many on here must also see that the Hispanic community did not embrace this amendment either, and it is not their fault.

African-Americans more than anyone in this country fully understand one's civil rights.  If you allow the other side to define what this legislation is about, which was successful by the passing of this legislation, then something else happened.

We must commend the outside influences of the LDS (Mormons) for getting their message across, by powerful and divisive television ads and direct mail pieces.  It was effective.  They snatched the ball and ran with it, before opponents against this legislation had time to raise money and organize.  That is what happened.

Now this is heading for the courts, as it should, but the larger picture should be this, "civil rights for gay Americans across this land."  And this battle must be won on the Supreme Court ground.

Bashing African-Americans, Hispanics and the many Whites who voted for this legislation does not amount to anything.  This is a teaching lesson to those who opposed this legislation.  Take nothing for granted, you must make the public understand that this is a civil rights issue and must make many move past what homosexuality is, just as we had to fight everyday with Americans to look past Barack Obama's skin color and listen to what his agenda was.  And many on this board KNOW this was not an easy task.

We have accomplished a lot of work together, now is not the time to point any fingers, especially when many of us did not donate money, time, or effort in making sure it was defeated.

If Barack Obama can become the first African-American President, this legislation can be defeated, at the ballot box or on the Supreme Court turf.  We are the ones that must make a difference.  Enough of the anger, time to get busy.

Just my 2 cents.

Originally posted to icebergslim on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:38 AM PST.

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    •  Agree with every word. (110+ / 0-)

      Every Californian is at fault here.  Playing identity politics is old school and ineffective.

      It's a shame that so many California dems were so focused on the presidential race that they simply didn't pay attention to what was happening in their own state.  I have lots of California family who traveled to Nevada to GOTV and made calls to other states.  They just didn't think about what was happening in California.

      Now, they're paying attention.

      There's a good chance we'll get it overturned in the courts.  Let's focus on that and moving forward -- in California and throughout the country.

      Hope you enjoyed it, Sarah, 'cause we just kicked your silly winking folksy lipsticked ass back to Alaska. For good. Also.

      by Kaili Joy Gray on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:43:17 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  wow. (112+ / 0-)

        tell it to all of the Californians who donated, phone banked and did what they could, both within the framework of the No on 8 campaign and on their own. My neighbor organized a rally right in front of the HQ of the very conservative candidate for mayor of my town. This was done not in SF, where defeating the measure had overwhelming support, but in Oceanside, where support for passing Prop 8 was all over the place.

        I was paying attention. I was out there with my No on 8 home made sign on election day. I donated.

        I am heartsick about the passage of this proposition, but for you to tell me that this is my fault, when I not only voted against this piece of shit, I gave my time and my money, as did MANY of my neighbors in CA's very conservative 49th district? I beg to differ.

        Thanks.

        "Poverty or wealth can make all the differences in securing the substance or only the shadow of constitutional protections." -Wiley Rutledge

        by asimbagirl on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:21:05 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  This is a Bigger-Picture View (71+ / 0-)

          Nobody is saying that nothing was done to fight Prop 8. You are missing the point by taking this as a personal insult. Obama was elected largely because of incredible organization that clearly understood the politics necessary to reach the electorate; Prop 8 passed because the opposition did not have an equivalent organization.

          This is CLASS WAR, and the other side just suffered a setback.

          by Mr X on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:35:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly (36+ / 0-)

            Summed it up nicely.

            Icebergslim thanks for writing this. It can never be stressed enough that the No on 8 effort was poorly funded and poorly explained throughout the state. Lots of cooks were on board the No on 8 effort but there was no Executive Chef.

            •  The Mormon Church (27+ / 0-)

              The opponents of 8 were outnumbered by the better organized, better prepared, more numerous and probably more wealthy Mormons who hammered through this evil proposition.

              Just after the election, a diary here (sorry, I don't have the ref) pointed out that the Mormon leaders took at least 10 years preparing for this battle. They enlisted Catholic leaders to join them, putting the Catholics in the forefront because they knew the Mormon Church had a less favorable image with the public.

              If any commenter has the link to that diary, please list it. Thanks.

              In the weeks before the election, Californians were hearing multiple scary radio ads daily urging a yes vote, but hardly anything from the other side until shortly before the election.

              •  Is this the one you mean? (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Nina, Leap Year, elwior

                http://www.dailykos.com/...
                Daily Kos: Re: Prop 8.  Take Away Mormon "Right" to Marry!

              •  Preparing for Battle (4+ / 0-)

                While this might have been true:

                "The opponents of 8 were outnumbered by the better organized, better prepared, more numerous and probably more wealthy Mormons who hammered through this evil proposition."

                The gay marriage proponents must have recognized, as soon as the victory at the Supreme Court, that this was without a doubt coming. Indeed, the gay marriage proponents ought to have recognized, years earlier, that victory in the courts must be backed up by victory in the ballot booth.

                It could be excused if the gay rights proponents were out-funded, but certainly they should have been prepared for this inevitable battle but they didn't seem to have been. For instance, I read in a comment somewhere that the outreach of the "No to 8" towards the blacks have been poor. Why would such an important omission be permitted? Did the "No to 8" campaign really believe the "base" demographic of the 18-29 group can carry the day?

                •  Outreach to AA communities (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  esquimaux, sesquioxide

                  Wanna see what gay outreach into traditionally evangelical AA communities looke liks?

                  Read this:  Worst Speech

                  On an individual or a group basis, usually, it's met with serious and often nearly violent resistance.  I have no doubt efforts were made and, in spite of Coretta Scott King's support for the gay community's struggles, rebuffed without a second thought.

                  •  And one from Jay Bakker: (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    sesquioxide, Sparks23, qi motuoche

                    One nation, indivisible.

                    by Doctor Frog on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:01:48 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  So you're just ready to give up on them? (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Lexicon, sesquioxide, mellowwild

                    What if African Americans had given up on white women who did quite a bit to help with the Civil Rights Movement, what if they turned they're backs on every other group they initially met resistance from.

                    When you need help, you keep knocking on doors until someone hears you out.

                    I don't think anyone should be turning away potential support.

                    •  Certainly (0+ / 0-)

                      Afrian Americans won what they have with quite a few of them and their allies getting killed or having their skulls busted in doing outreach.

                      I'm not advocating anyone go out of their way to risk getting hurt, but maytyrs can cause the moderates to turn against the violent radicals and turn the public opinion. Against something as deepseated as homophobia, advocates fighting for gay rights probably should expect getting roughed up as par for the course. Staying in "safe" enclaves and preaching to the choir might avoid injury but would not lead to progress.

                      •  Are you kidding? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        bohemian darling
                        Yeah, I guess the problem we gays have is that we haven't gotten fag bashed enough.  Hey, here's an idea you'll probably like, sesquioxide, why don't we just have a few more Matthew Shepard-type incidents, and that'll really turn people around.

                        Believe me, gay people have been "roughed up" plenty, and it hasn't changed the minds of straight folks.  Your suggestion is utterly asinine.

                  •  I Don't Think That's the Right Idea ... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Lexicon, physic

                    as was done in the speech you mentioned, to go to evangelical communities to challenge them that the Bible didn't condemn gays. People in general would only accept being told they have a wrong idea about their own religion if and only if they already have  a certain degree of respect and trust from the person delivering the message. Certainly they will not take it well from a stranger who seem to be more pushing an issue than trying to make them better Christians in general. And certainly arrogant attitudes like this:

                    "A few years from now, I will open up my email one day and I will read a surprise message from a student at Central State. The message will say the following: 'I was there the night when you spoke on our campus, and I'm sorry I was one of the people who heckled you. I was dealing with a lot in my life at the time. I didn't know it then but I now know that I'm gay. I couldn't say it then, but I want to say it now. Thank you for coming to our campus.'"

                    will never help.

                    A better method methinks would be to say that whether they think that gays are wrong or not, it's better to let the gays do as they wish and let God judge them when the day comes. After all, if they can find ways to at least live with (and not, say, go kill) Muslims and Buddhists they can let the gays practice as they wish.

                    And the emphasis on the bottom line (as was mentioned in DrFitz's comment below) must be made. Gays in general support issues that benefit blacks, like universal healthcare and affirmative action. A vibrant and healthy gay community can benefit the straight blacks, and so blacks should support and help the gay community.

                  •  To put this 'Worst Speech' (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Lexicon

                    into perspective, it was given at a required convocation to a Freshman class at a college.  An event that usually has to do with issues of the University and their education.  One might consider speaking to them about homophobia in the black community - is part of their required learning... but I think it's prudent to be cautious about requiring students to attend such speeches in schools, even Universities.  After all, it was one of the main points the 'Yes on 8' group used.

                  •  Where do you get that from? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Pecola

                    What proof do you have? Did you know about a ministry that outreaches to AA churches around HIV/AIDS, and encourages understanding among ministers?

                    Drinking Belvi lemon drops in solidarity with the C&J Party since 2004. http://i-dreamed-i-was.livejournal.com/6105.html

                    by Lexicon on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 06:31:22 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Keith Boykin?! (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Pecola

                    At a university? Wow, great parallel made there. Keith is controversial regardless of his sexual identity, and not everyone's taste.

                    I attended an HBCU with mandatory chapel. One night, right before the season finale of "A Different World," a speaker was droning on and on...flipping page after page of her manuscript. It was mind-numbing. We were fidgeting, hoping we wouldn't miss any of the show. We started grumbling. We got louder and louder. Our dean took the mic and said if we couldn't behave as if we were raised right, we needed to stop disrespecting the chapel and leave.

                    Every last frosh took off like a shot, running for our dorm rooms and lounge TVs. We were 18 years old.

                    Grain of salt.

                    Drinking Belvi lemon drops in solidarity with the C&J Party since 2004. http://i-dreamed-i-was.livejournal.com/6105.html

                    by Lexicon on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 06:36:57 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  For insight, check out this LA Times editorial (16+ / 0-)

                  by a black lesbian.  She says a lot of things that make me angry and uncomfortable, but it's important to understand where this voting block is coming from on the issue.

                  No-on-8's White Bias

                  The white gay community never successfully communicated to blacks why it should matter to us above everything else -- not just to me as a lesbian but to blacks generally. The way I see it, the white gay community is banging its head against the glass ceiling of a room called equality, believing that a breakthrough on marriage will bestow on it parity with heterosexuals. But the right to marry does nothing to address the problems faced by both black gays and black straights...Maybe white gays could afford to be singularly focused, raising millions of dollars to fight for the luxury of same-sex marriage. But blacks were walking the streets of the projects and reaching out to small businesses, gang members, convicted felons and the spectrum of an entire community to ensure that we all were able to vote.

                  McCain/Palin = Unstable/Unable

                  by DrFitz on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 03:24:50 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Damn good article! (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    lowcountry, mellowwild

                    Thanks for sharing it!

                    You don't have to be a man to fight for freedom. All you have to be is an intelligent human being. ~Malcolm X

                    by Queenie68 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:08:01 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Eye Opener (0+ / 0-)
                    Wow.  Quite an article, but by now, I guess I should be used to this attitude.  The struggle for gay civil rights apparently just isn't as worthy as the one for African-American civil rights.  Gosh, I had no idea that we white gays were such a frivolous group of people.  I didn't realize how trivial and "secondary" things like the "luxury" of being able to marry the person of my choice is.  Thank goodness I've now been set "straight."

                    I do think that the article was useful in one sense, though.  It helps me understand why African-American voters supported Prop. 8.  It apparently allowed them to feel better than us gays.  Guess everyone needs someone to spit on.

              •  Perhaps this disaster will act as a catalyst. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                asimbagirl, 417els

                A nation-wide catalyst for equality.
                Prop 8 should be the early 21st Century equivalent of Stonewall.
                I think (hope) the bigots will be in for a major shock.

                Of course it hurts - you're getting screwed by an elephant.

                by sean oliver on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 02:49:16 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  this is my fondest hope (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kriser, high uintas, Good Hope Road

                  that the shitstorm unleashed by the passage of this terrible prop will take civil rights to a new level.

                  This is what I will be working toward. I won't be alone. Wouldn't it be GREAT to have history written - in the near future - that pointed to the interference of organized religion in people's basic rights as the catalyst?

                  I can't think of a better thank you to the LDS bigots than the nation organized to make sure this can't happen again. I really, truly can't.

                  "Poverty or wealth can make all the differences in securing the substance or only the shadow of constitutional protections." -Wiley Rutledge

                  by asimbagirl on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:04:08 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  actually, I can think of a (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    asimbagirl, kriser

                    slightly better thank you for LDS.

                    Yank their tax exemptions based on violations of law in the course of funding and providing GOTV for Prop 8.

                    It won't destroy them, but I think they'll stay out of direct involvement electoral politics for generations.

                    Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                    by alizard on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 01:14:46 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Definitely True about the ads!!! (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Lexicon

                I heard the scariest "Yes on 8" ads on the Air America affiliate, KTLK.

                I did not hear what I thought were the more effective type "No on 8" ads until less than a week before the election.

                These were the ones saying something like no matter how you feel about marriage, it's wrong to take away someone's rights.

              •  The Mormons spent approx 20 million $ for Prop 8 (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rock2casbah, mellowwild

                They also had a ton of volunteers for the passage of Prop 8.  The opposition underestimated the Mormon involvement in California politics.

                Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official... ~Theodore Roosevelt

                by Pam from Calif on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:31:42 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Tax 'Em (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Actbriniel, rock2casbah

                This may sound incredibly naive, but why aren't we taxing churches that actively pursue a political agenda?

                How is it churches can use their substantial pulpit to strip a segment of American society of its rights while at the same time exempting itself from taking responsibility for its political actions by paying taxes? It seems to me that once a church injects itself into the political process, it ceases being simply a spiritual community and begins taking on the role of a political action committee.

                Even if this were not true; it is clear Jesus supported paying taxes to a foreign government that not only denied representation to those being taxed, but also routinely oppressed them (and eventually crucified him). So it seems to me that by the example of their central deity, Christians (and LDS) should pay taxes.

                Corporation churches -- especially those who actively work to influence government policy -- should be taxed, if only to level the playing field for ordinary citizens who must also pay taxes as they struggle financially to support causes like equal rights for all citizens.

                •  I have always wondered (0+ / 0-)

                  why churches weren't taxed.  If they sponsor community outreach programs, overseas missions, orphanages or other such charitable activities, perhaps those expenditures could be treated as tax deductions.  But I have always thought that the basic church - the entity that takes money from its members, builds large edifices, hires staff and pays their living expenses - should be treated under IRS Regulations as the business it is, whether it engages in political activity or not.

                  "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

                  by SueDe on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:27:47 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  the original poster said (32+ / 0-)

            Every Californian is at fault, along with other generalities that I felt should be addressed. Getting the big picture point across can easily be done without belittling the efforts of those of us on the ground here.

            "Poverty or wealth can make all the differences in securing the substance or only the shadow of constitutional protections." -Wiley Rutledge

            by asimbagirl on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:42:55 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  While I'm perfectly willing to lay some blame (3+ / 0-)

            on the organizational failures on our side, as demonstrated in the sentiment of our gay "leadership" in this post at Americablog, there is still plenty of blame to go around.  While our organization may have flaws, nothing changes the fact that gay people are still to some degree a despised minority, such that even the BEST organization could still lose.

            The major point here is ignorance, and I'm not going to overlook the impact of that, whether its coming from southern whites re: race or whether it comes from blacks and latinos re: gay people.  There needs to be education, sure, but I am definitely in the mood for publicly pointing the finger and shaming people who voted against our rights across the country, from Florida to California.

            •  "even the best leadership"? (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Nina, snakelass, rock2casbah, Coilette

              We'll never know, the anti-Prop 8 leadership certainly didn't qualify for "best" or even good.

              As a Comedy Central viewer, I actually did see most of the anti-8 TV ads... and my reaction was "WTF were they thinking?"

              As for ignorance ... it was the job of the Prop 8 campaign to fix that. Instead, LDS got their lies out virtually unopposed.

              Under the circumstances, the biggest surprise is that Prop 8 came as close as it did to being defeated.

              Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

              by alizard on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:33:20 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Point all the fingers you want (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              peggy, Mr Stagger Lee, Leslie123

              The major point here is ignorance, and I'm not going to overlook the impact of that, whether it’s coming from southern whites re: race or whether it comes from blacks and Latinos re: gay people.  

              Let's be clear...blacks and Latinos are not water-hosing you, unleashing vicious dogs on you, or bombing churches with your children inside.  What blacks and Latinos did was vote THEIR conscious.  You may call it ignorance, and you certainly have a right to be upset with the outcome.  But, when you say that gay people are a "despised minority" and I juxtapose that against the vile images of the civil rights movement, sorry, but you all don't know despised like black people (my grandparents, mother, father, aunts, uncles, relatives living in the deep south during that violent era) know despised.

              There needs to be education, sure, but I am definitely in the mood for publicly pointing the finger and shaming people who voted against our rights across the country, from Florida to California.

              Do you really think you are going to have any success shaming people (black people in most instances, because even though Hispanics voted for Prop. 8 53%, Asians 49% and Whites 49%, most of the hateful denigration [or shame as you call it] is being directed at blacks), when you have people within your community lashing out so repulsively.  No, all you all are doing is widening the wedge between the black and gay community.  Good luck with that!

              •  "You all don't know despised like black people" (10+ / 0-)

                Let's be clear...blacks and Latinos are not water-hosing you, unleashing vicious dogs on you, or bombing churches with your children inside.  What blacks and Latinos did was vote THEIR conscious.  You may call it ignorance, and you certainly have a right to be upset with the outcome.  But, when you say that gay people are a "despised minority" and I juxtapose that against the vile images of the civil rights movement, sorry, but you all don't know despised like black people (my grandparents, mother, father, aunts, uncles, relatives living in the deep south during that violent era) know despised.

                I posted this in another thread, but I'll repost it here since it's relevant to what you said above:

                Gay people have been persecuted and harassed for over 1700 years now, since the ascendancy of Christianity in the West.  A few examples:

                * In 390 AD, Roman emperors Valentinian II, Theodosius and Arcadius declared homosexual intercourse to be illegal, and those guilty of it were condemned to be publicly burned alive.

                * In 1365, Giovanni di Giovanni was tortured to death for being a homosexual.  His punishment included public castration and the burning of his anus with a red-hot iron.

                * In 1661, Jacques Chausson had his tongue cut out, and was burned alive at the stake for propositioning the son of a nobleman.

                * Homosexuality was punishable by death for over 300 years in England, from 1533 to 1861, and it still is in at least seven countries: Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Yemen.

                * In post-liberation Iraq, Shia death squads have tortured and killed gays and lesbians.

                * And here in America, among the innumerable other incidents of anti-gay violence and discrimination, there's the burning of the Upstairs Lounge in New Orleans, which killed 32 people; the assassination of openly gay San Francisco city supervisor Harvey Milk; the bombing of the Otherside Lounge in Atlanta, by Eric Rudolph, which injured 5 people; the rape and murder of Brandon Teena; the death by beating and exposure of Matthew Shepard; and the homophobia-induced murders of Robert Hillsborough, Terry Knudsen, Les Benscoter, Charile Howard, Rebecca Wight, James Zappalorti, Julio Rivera, Paul Broussard, Scott Amedure, Roxanne Ellis, Michelle Abdill, Barry Winchell, Gary Matson, Winfield Mowder, Steen Fenrich, and far too many others to list here (I was going to list the ones I found here, but since there were so many of them, I'll just refer everyone to this page on Wikipedia).

                The only reason that gays and lesbians haven't been subjected to persecution at the same level, if not worse, as that suffered by African-Americans in this country is because there's no such thing as a gay skin color.  If gays and lesbians could be identified that easily, they probably would have been (and in some places, probably still would be) subjected to separate water fountains, rigged literacy tests, and the back of the bus.  They're still subject to being lynched, they're still not allowed to adopt in some places, and they're still not allowed to marry in most.  We're separated by one Supreme Court ruling a few years ago from laws that outlawed homosexuality altogether.  Gay students, or students who are perceived as gay because they don't conform to widely accepted gender stereotypes, are frequently, and in some places routinely, harassed by their peers, some to the point of suicide.  Openly gay politicians have a much harder time being elected to public office, and within the American political system, GLBT rights activists are frequently accused of pursuing a grand conspiracy to subvert Christianity and Western Civilization and turn public schools into pederastic recruitment centers.

                That African-Americans have suffered horribly throughout the history of this country is a sad fact that only the most callous revisionist racist would ignore or try to conceal.  But it's even more sad when people who know about such oppression from personal experience ignore it when it happens to other people, in an attempt to make their own prejudices more palatable.

              •  I live in both the gay and the black community. (0+ / 0-)

                And sorry, what the black community has done IS repulsive and deserves all the shame and scorn it brings with it.

                President Barack Obama - #44

                by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:11:01 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Will it shame them or deepen the divide (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  asimbagirl, left turn, mellowwild

                  We need communication, outreach and hard work to turn these tables, not division, and singling out the black community damn sure isn't extending an olive branch.

                  If you want people (notice I'm not emphasizing a race) to vote your way, you have explain to them why they should. There wasn't a good enough job of that with Prop 8.

                •  AA's represent 7% of the population of CA (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  left turn

                  I posted this response on another diary.

                  I support civil unions for all Americans, not just for the GLBT community. I think it should be illegal for any church of any denomination to assign government right to any couple. I also understand the GLBT community's outrage at this bill passing. I don't think it is fair.  I just don't think its right to judge an entire race by the vote. Isn't that.... I don't know..a little prejudice?

                  I would also like to say that it is pretty racist for some GLBT to think that AA's would think vote no on Prop 8 simply because of their history on voting for civil rights. Some AA's would have voted against it because of their "religious" beliefs and not homophobia. If religion played a part in some of the white voter's opinions, why would it have not played a part in some AA's vote? Why is it because they were racists or homophobes?

                  I'd equate this to some people thinking I would automatically vote for Obama JUST because he's black. Like I'm not able to choose a candidate based on their experience or my personal views.

                  I'm a little offended that the GLBT thinks this is all the AA's fault for passing as well. It is much more responsible to look at the demographics of age and  religion of the voters who voted for or against it than race.

                  What percentage of white people voted against it? What percentage of Hispanic people voted against it? What percentage of Asians voted against it?

                  What percentage of the population of California do each of these blocks of people they represent?

                  I bet it's more than 7%
                  If black people had the same swing of voters for or against it 53% for etc. would the bill have passed given the number of black voters?

                  Playing Sam Cooke's " A Change is Gonna Come" on a loop until January 20, 2009.

                  by kishadawn on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:36:59 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I don't care whether or not blacks got Prop 8 (0+ / 0-)

                    over the finish line. I care about the fact that they voted 70-30 in California and 71-29 in Florida to pass gay marriage bans.

                    Far exceeding that of other groups.

                    President Barack Obama - #44

                    by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:46:45 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  If it doesn't matter? (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Lexicon, rock2casbah, thebluecrayon

                      Why are there so many angry posts here?

                      They voted disproportionately in those states. The AA community (in FL especially) receive their political voting instruction from the pulpit.  

                      I spent my teenage years in NC where the congressmen of our district made a regular circuit of the church. Is it possible that the Yes on 8 campaign did a better job of marketing to those churches to set their agenda?

                      The bottom line is that the bill passed. Are you as angry at the 51% of the white people who voted yes?

                      Are you posting about the 51% of the white voters who voted against it? I mean they do constitute a larger number than the 7% of blacks as a whole. Will you be posting about the Hispanics as well?

                      I agree with iceberg slim's post that the campaign could have been handled better. Hind sight is 20/20.

                      Other Kossacks put it more eloquently, but I'm no poet. I will just get straight to the point.

                      Are you going to keep bitching about it or do something about it?

                      What steps will you make (other than bitching and pointing fingers at black people) to make these black voters support your effort to get this disastrous prejudiced bill overthrown. How can you get into areas that these voters get their information to push YOUR agenda.

                      I'm as embarrassed as anyone else that this bill didn't pass. I'm embarrassed by the number of black people who voted against it. But sitting here wailing is not going to get anything done. Focusing on a single voting block won't either. Especially if that voting block wouldn't get it passed even if it had voted 70/30 in the other direction.

                      Playing Sam Cooke's " A Change is Gonna Come" on a loop until January 20, 2009.

                      by kishadawn on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:04:06 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                •  No, Shame on you! (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mellowwild

                  Because you do not know what us blacks been through unless you walked in our shoes. Living in black community DOES NOT count worth a damn!

                  Again, the passing of Proposition 8 was wrong but like Icebergslim stated in her diary:

                  Proposition 8 was a failure on many levels.  The most important failure was the lack of organization of those against the legislation to inform many Californians what was at stake.

                  Let me be clear here.  It is not African-Americans fault that this legislation was passed and not defeated.  Read this information of the break down here and get the statistical facts.

                  Selling Proposition 8 is the same as selling Barack Obama to this country.  Folks must be informed about what this legislation entails and must understand that this is about the everyday man's civil rights in this country.  This was not explained.

                  Many on here must also see that the Hispanic community did not embrace this amendment either, and it is not their fault.

                  You don't have to be a man to fight for freedom. All you have to be is an intelligent human being. ~Malcolm X

                  by Queenie68 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:17:52 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Excuse me, I live in the black community and the (0+ / 0-)

                    gay community because I AM black AND gay.

                    President Barack Obama - #44

                    by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:23:07 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And you're ONLY mad at African Americans (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Lexicon, Actbriniel, mellowwild

                      who voted for Prop 8? What about latinos? What about the fact that the majority of people voting for it were white? What about the fact that the Mormons and Catholics paired up to pass this? You know a lot of black Mormons? I sure don't. In my experience as a former Catholic - there aren't a whole ton of black Catholics either.

                      You want to blame someone, fine. I get that. But while you're blaming...what you aren't doing is figuring out what the hell went wrong here and why Prop 8 passed - FOR REAL. The real reasons. And as long as you're wasting time tossing around blame to ONE group instead of looking at the real reasons this passed...you will continue to lose. This movement will continue to lose.

                      A friend of mine who is African American said to me the other day - the goal isn't to persuade African Americans that gay people are "right" and that being gay is great and that everyone should get married, etc. just because. The goal is to persuade people that regardless of their personal beliefs about your personal business in the bedroom - you deserve the same equality that they have - because THAT is what is in our Constitution. That's what America is about - everyone is equal. Everyone deserves the same rights. I know plenty of black people who don't personally think gay marriage is "right", but they don't care about gay marriage because it's none of their business.

                      That's how you convince people to vote NO on Prop 8. Blaming everyone doesn't do it.

                      Evaluate what went wrong here and correct it for the next fight - and then everyone will win.

                  •  I have to say..I feel discouraged right now..... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Actbriniel
                    I voted against this shameful piece of legislation. I cannot begin to tell you how wrong I think it is. I donated, I had signs in my yard.. on my house....I will be the first to tell you I could have done much more. When the next measure comes up, I will stand up, march..do whatever it takes. But this beat-down is taking its toll on me. I just think that right now, there are some who are determined to blame us...no matter what. We didn't do enough outreach, we didn't give enough clear explanation, we weren't organized enough..... and we certainly didn't combat all the vicious lies and half-truths the mormons and their followers were spreading. We got it together too late. We have to go into our communities just like we did for our president-elect.
        •  California has 36 million + people (9+ / 0-)

          He didn't write this diary towards you. As much as it's great knowing that one person can make a difference, there is also the stark reality that it takes a lot of work to get things done.

          That isn't your fault and you really shouldn't see this in any context of "blame" on those who tried their best.

          Didn't Abraham Lincoln have less experience than Barack Obama?

          by relikx on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:38:29 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I was responding to a poster (21+ / 0-)

            not the diarist. And when the poster said,

            Every Californian is at fault here.

            well, I think that plenty of Californians left it all on the road, both to get Obama elected and to defeat this horrible prop.

            "Poverty or wealth can make all the differences in securing the substance or only the shadow of constitutional protections." -Wiley Rutledge

            by asimbagirl on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:44:33 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I, for one, am tired of this mentality. (6+ / 0-)

              All week Californians have been saying "Not me! Not me!" It would be nice to see Californians stand up and take some responsibility for what happened in their state.

              It happened there. You are responsible for it. We need your help to fix it.

              •  thanks so much (29+ / 0-)

                I'm perfectly willing to work to fix it. I am NOT willing to say that this happened because of me. Not when I and so many others seriously did everything we could do to not have it pass.

                "Poverty or wealth can make all the differences in securing the substance or only the shadow of constitutional protections." -Wiley Rutledge

                by asimbagirl on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:53:07 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Your comment is so wrong on so many levels... (12+ / 0-)

                ... but I am going to try and hold my anger back.

                Please read my comment below, and try to keep the fickle finger of blame from antagonizing those who should be working together.

                •  Sorry, HA... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ChurchofBruce, greeseyparrot

                  Gotta disagree with you on this one. Your comment above and your comment below read like tracks from the "Not Me!" Greatest Hits Album.

                  1. Blacks had nothing to do with it!
                  1. Don't Blame Me! I Voted Against It!
                  1. The Campaign Sucked
                  1. Don't Blame the Mormons!
                  1. Don't Single Out the Catholic Church!

                  So...it wasn't Mormons. It wasn't the Hispanics. It wasn't blacks. It wasn't Catholics. It wasn't CA voters. But the campaign sucked, so it was the gays...right? Did I get it right?

                  •  Boy my writing must really suck... (10+ / 0-)

                    ... if you got that from my comments.

                    1. I do object to the "It's the Blacks fault!" line. Say instead "It's a majority of the Black churchgoing public" and you would be correct. It's the blanket condemnation that is ticking everyone off, not the fact that yes a majority of the Black churchgoing public voted yes on H8.
                    1. Yes, you do have this one right. Don't blame me. Get together with me to help fix this.
                    1. Yes, the campaign sucked. Read the link and there's much more on this subject elsewhere. Accept that, learn what went wrong and join together to do it right.
                    1. You got this one more wrong than I can believe. I blame the Mormon church the most. A lot. I feel more loathing and disgust at that institution than you can know. Or maybe you do know. Recognizing that they ran an almost flawless campaign to promote H8 doesn't mean I don't blame them! It means we need to take their organizing skills into account. Sorry, but they outflanked us, and I don't like it either.
                    1. I didn't single out the Catholic church for space considerations, I was including them as the etc. part of my comments... but yes, they are up there with the Mormons, no doubt.

                    To answer your last sentence... No, you got very little of my comment right.

                  •  As far as I'm concerned, if people (27+ / 0-)

                    aren't asking what the hell a religious initiative was doing on a secular ballot then they are totally missing the point.

                    Nobody in this country is supposed to have to go to the churches to beg for their rightful entitlement to civil rights in this secular democracy.

                    Those opposed to this proposition should not have had to raise one thin dime, knock on a single door or talk to a single person about this question of whether or not to give citizens of this country their civil rights - that proposition should never have been on the CA ballot or any other state ballot as far as I'm concerned - it is pure religious dogma which is un-Constitutional.  It has been happening across this country for years now.  It gets to California and everyone finally freaks out about it, but they are still missing the point.  

                    It had no more business on the ballot in Alabama or Virginia or anywhere else this bullshit has already been passed by "The People" either.  The People would shred the US Constitution so fast your head would spin if they could vote on it on these ballot initiatives.  I hate ballot initiatives.  All you need is a lot of money, a scary story and all of a sudden people are voting against democracy and their own best interests.

                    •  No kidding. You speak the truth about the big... (7+ / 0-)

                      ... picture.

                      I hope once this is past we here in CA can pass some laws dictating that: we need a supermajority to amend our constitution (it take more votes for a budget than to amend the fracking constitution!), and that paid signature gathering is made illegal.

                      We need to make it impossible for the wingnuts to use our flawed system to keep making their points.

                      •  The only reason I fault anyone on the victim (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        highacidity

                        side in CA - and I do not say this lightly - is that because of cultural prejudices and to a degree ignorance about how political movements work - people in California, New York and all the other "liberal" states didn't bother to really fight this shit when it started in the South where it began believing that it would never happen to them.  

                        When the Nazis came for the communists,
                        I remained silent;
                        I was not a communist.
                        When they locked up the social democrats,
                        I remained silent;
                        I was not a social democrat.

                        When they came for the trade unionists,
                        I did not speak out;
                        I was not a trade unionist.

                        When they came for the Jews,
                        I remained silent;
                        I was not a Jew.

                        When they came for me,
                        there was no one left to speak out.

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                    •  Can someone please help me with an opinion? (3+ / 0-)

                      ... I wish to present this as a hypothetical question while this topic is on the recommended list with a bunch of diverse commenters who are being respectful of each other.

                      What if you saw a member of a religious clergy dressed in their religious garments at the polls on last tuesday, acting in the capacity of an allegedly official  polling judge at a precinct where these two religious based propositions (4, the abortion notification one, and 8, the definition of marriage)  were on the ballot ?

                      I am serious. Not trolling.

                      "Toads of Glory, slugs of joy... as he trotted down the path before a dragon ate him"-Alex Hall/ Stop McClintock

                      by AmericanRiverCanyon on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:49:19 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I would have objected to... (3+ / 0-)

                        ... an outward display of their religion while serving as a poll judge, or in any official election capacity.

                        •  Thank you. I've run this past a lot of people (6+ / 0-)

                          ... in real- time, and was getting a little discouraged at the responses.

                          I didn't object but did ask their name and position.  The reaction was to have me followed out to my vehicle and photographed by another poll worker, while this person stood nearby,  while I was sitting in the vehicle after I voted.  I have contacted the registrar's office asking for a list of the names of the poll workers at this location and they are refusing to give it to me. It is the precinct I normally vote at. I have never seen this before, ever.  Something is not right here.    

                          "Toads of Glory, slugs of joy... as he trotted down the path before a dragon ate him"-Alex Hall/ Stop McClintock

                          by AmericanRiverCanyon on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 02:48:10 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't know how you would approach (3+ / 0-)

                            the subject to request help, but your party's precinct Chair is able to obtain a list of poll judges for their precinct ... or they can in my state.

                            If you don't know history, you don't know anything. You're a leaf that doesn't know it is part of a tree. ~Michael Crichton, Timeline

                            by Leslie H on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 03:09:25 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Please pursue this legally. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            AmericanRiverCanyon

                            This is not right... it is kind of creepy, actually.

                          •  As a pollworker, (0+ / 0-)

                            I would be horrified if election officials gave a list of names to just anyone off the street.  We wear name tags with our first name shown but if someone asked for more than that, I would probably be dialing 911!

                            You ask an interesting question that I've not seen addressed in my years as a pollworker.  My gut tells me that religious garb would be allowed.  I'll try and remember to ask at my next poll worker training class.

                          •  I wasn't just "off the street" this was where I (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Actbriniel

                            ... have voted for many years, I had voted there that day,  and they wouldn't even talk to me until they had all my personal information. If I think somebody may be canvassing a polling place illegally, I damn well have a right to ask if they are in fact a government employee.  If the act of my just asking if they are a government employee provokes a reaction that includes being followed and photographed, then there IS a problem.

                            Since we were voting on a proposition that addressed the abortion issue, and the outfit was of a person whose faith organization has not only officially endorsed this proposition, but has individuals who are willing to take this much further and picket clinics and and intimidate others, this is a legitimate concern.      

                            From the actions of these poll workers I had reason to believe my personal safety and that of others was being endangered.      

                            There was also other info I have left out of this deliberately.    

                            "Toads of Glory, slugs of joy... as he trotted down the path before a dragon ate him"-Alex Hall/ Stop McClintock

                            by AmericanRiverCanyon on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:57:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Maybe we are not (0+ / 0-)

                            talking about the same thing.  You used the words "official polling judge" in your initial e-mail which I took to mean a poll worker.  Your reply to my post referenced someone "canvassing a polling place illegally".  To me, these are entirely two different animals.

                            In LA County where I work (and most other places I would imagine), poll workers are VOLUNTEERS not "government employees".  If you were concerned about an illegal canvasser, than I would think one of the volunteer poll workers would be able to answer your question regarding a person standing about questioning voters.  I am interpreting canvasser to be someone attempting to ascertain how a voter cast his/her ballot or otherwise asking questions of the voter.  Maybe your polling place is unique, but I have a hard time imagining that this type of activity could go on for very long if the proximity of this person to the actual poll workers was such that you were unsure if they were part of the official group.

                            If the person in question was a poll worker (checking in people, handing out ballots, marking off the street address, etc.) than my original reply would still stand.

                            I feel if people who work the polls knew their personal information was subject to disclosure and potential harassment to anyone who asked, no matter how long they had been voting at at a precinct, the supply of volunteers would dry up and you would have "government employees" manning the polls at a much much higher cost to the public.

                          •  They (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            CaliSista

                            ... (the poll workers and election judges) are paid in this district.

                            I feel that if the voters voting at the polls knew that their personal information was being passed around to anyone who asked (remember, I had to identify myself first, ) that this is a security issue.  You are approaching this from the viewpoint of one who lives in a suburban or urban area, you haven't seen the sort of totally unbelievable stuff that happens in red wing nut America.  

                            "Toads of Glory, slugs of joy... as he trotted down the path before a dragon ate him"-Alex Hall/ Stop McClintock

                            by AmericanRiverCanyon on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 06:35:09 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's true that I cannot (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            AmericanRiverCanyon

                            speak to what goes on in ruby red rural areas.  I worked in what was probably a 65% - 35% red precinct in a blue county in a blue state.  Although I'm not positive, I believe that those making the assignments try to put at least one Rep and one Dem at each precinct.

                            I should also clarify that clerks working at the polls in LA County get a stipend of $80.  I did not consider this as working for the government or getting paid especially since it would not even qualify as minimum wage ($80 for approx 15 hours of work).

                            I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the security implications of giving out personal information on poll workers.  By virtue of an individual showing up to vote, the person manning the roster and street address index will have to know your name in order to process you.  I personally don't think the reverse needs to be true otherwise, I should get to see the name, address, and driver's license number for DMV workers or the name and credit card numbers of retail clerks.  I would imagine most poll workers don't remember your name 10 seconds after hearing it on a busy day like last Tuesday.

                          •  Here, please read this link about "passive elect- (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            CaliSista

                            ... "passive electioneering"  by Adam B.  

                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            What if the poll workers were doing the passive electioneering?

                            It is true that (a) that jurisdictions can constitutionally ban the wearing of campaign stickers/buttons/t-shirts in and around polling places, and (b) many jurisdictions do so.  On (a), the legal eagles among us can review this 2001 DC Circuit opinion, which maintained that such viewpoint-neutral restrictions are constitutional means of protecting the orderly conduct of elections, creating "a neutral zone within the polling place, preventing altercations over hot-button issues, intimidation of voters, eleventh hour smear campaigns and the like," and safeguarding citizens' ability to "vote freely for the candidates of their choice ... in an election conducted with integrity and reliability."

                            I was dressed in a very neutral manner.  The other person who I observed wandering about the precinct, clipboard in hand, was not,  I asked what their official role or job capacity was in the polling place, I asked their name,  and then I'm the one who gets followed out to the vehicle and photographed while sitting in it.  I'm beginning to think the entire thing was done on their part, as a test, to see what the reaction would be, in anticipation of other post election activities.  

                               

                            "Toads of Glory, slugs of joy... as he trotted down the path before a dragon ate him"-Alex Hall/ Stop McClintock

                            by AmericanRiverCanyon on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 08:35:39 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I read this diary (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            AmericanRiverCanyon

                            when it came out and commented here.

                  •  Yeah, (0+ / 0-)

                    you got it right!

                  •  I can't believe this has devolved into (0+ / 0-)

                    this...

                    are we about to turn in MyDD vs DKos within 2 days...

                    What are each of you going to do to solve this...change comes from the bottom up...not from ranting on a blog (whose traffic is down btw)...?

                    We are a more powerful movement than anything the Mormon community can bring.  Let's start acting like it.

                    Wake up!!!

                    Hope Won!!!! Yes We Can!!!

                    by justmy2 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:53:56 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  By that logic, all Americans are responsible for (8+ / 0-)

                Bush.

                Including you.

                It was an election. The good guys lost (for now). That doesn't make the good guys bad.

                May your entire existence be one sensuous, frolic-filled experience lived in defiance of care.

                by Fonsia on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:39:56 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  I think perhaps Utah (3+ / 0-)

                deserves a bit of the blame for this as well...

        •  Please understand... (25+ / 0-)

          I know lots of Californians worked hard to defeat Prop 8.

          But the numbers clearly demonstrate that most Dems and California liberals -- regardless of color -- dropped the ball on this.  

          I don't mean to minimize your personal efforts, but let me give you an example:

          My cousin was in a lesbian relationship for 12 years.  She and her parents went to Nevada every weekend for two months to fight for Obama in that battleground state.  They spent absolutely no time in California fighting against Prop 8.

          All of my California family who wanted to phonebank refused to make calls in California.  It was a "safe" state, so they only wanted to call battleground states.

          It's not that they supported Prop 8.  They just weren't paying attention.  (This was probably assisted by the fact that there were no "major" races in the state -- for senator or governor.)

          I'm not attacking you personally, and I thank you for all you did.

          Hope you enjoyed it, Sarah, 'cause we just kicked your silly winking folksy lipsticked ass back to Alaska. For good. Also.

          by Kaili Joy Gray on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:45:29 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Where was the campaign... (16+ / 0-)

            ... that should have been mobilizing the people?

            I don't know about the people you know, but a huge number of us worked on campaigning for the first time. Being inexperienced in this milieu, were we supposed to read minds, or tea leaves... when the damn No on H8 campaign was behaving like things were already won early on?

            I am so happy the Courage Campaign and the experienced people there are picking this campaign up off the ground to do it right.

            It's sad that we have to keep up the battle on this, but like ice says, this is like "selling" Obama to an America who still sees people of color as The Other. It can (and will) be done, but it will take work and smart planning.

            •  I agree. (6+ / 0-)

              It seems pretty clear that the forces against 8 weren't very organized because they weren't able to convince those very California who would oppose it that there was a real risk of its passing.  

              Like I said, there's blame to go all around.  Really, by my original comment, I was agreeing with icebergslim that trying to blame any one demographic or race is really counterproductive because Californians of every color and creed voted for it.

              But I also don't think it's a very good excuse to say "no one told us."  As voters, and especially as activists, we are responsible for paying attention to the politics in our community/state/country.  

              Hope you enjoyed it, Sarah, 'cause we just kicked your silly winking folksy lipsticked ass back to Alaska. For good. Also.

              by Kaili Joy Gray on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:56:42 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well who is next is the question. (10+ / 0-)

                What group of people will the churches target next after they get done with gay people?  

                Who needs to get organized?

                which people who are so loathed by these churches are supposed to go to them and beg for their mercy?

                Because it seems to me if we are going to let this standard of letting churches write and fund the passage of laws, we better get organized now.  Whoever we are that are going to be the ones they try to marginalize next better get ready.

                The notion that the minority that is under attack here should have been better organized to fend off an onslaught by a bunch of religious nuts who are trying to insinuate their beliefs into our secular democracy really pisses me off.

                •  That is a good question. (5+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  highacidity, Nina, Osiris, lazybum, bluesheep

                  I think we do need to think about what the future wedge issues will be.  And we need to be prepared to fight them; in fact, we need to pre-emptively fight them.

                  (And I'm not saying any particular minority should have been better organized.  I mean all California liberals.)

                  --

                  I really seem to have created a mini shit storm with my original comment, when all I meant to do was agree with the diarist that no one demographic should be blamed for the passage of 8.  Yikes.  

                  Hope you enjoyed it, Sarah, 'cause we just kicked your silly winking folksy lipsticked ass back to Alaska. For good. Also.

                  by Kaili Joy Gray on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:42:32 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm not attacking your premise as much (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    esquimaux

                    as I am suggesting that accepting blame plays right into their game.  A game called "Divide & Conquer" which is very effective when we don't do what Atticus Finch talked about and walk in other people's shoes - and a game that works when we assume that somebody else's problem will not ultimately be our own.

                    Everything I learned about being a liberal Democrat is from a white, yellow dog Democrat Southerner - my Father - who is unyielding in his view that any assault on any group of people where it comes to civil liberties is an assault on his own.

                •  They will next try to overturn Roe v Wade (5+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  peggy, esquimaux, lazybum, Eddie L, Pakalolo

                  .... and they will also try to overturn the existing same gender marriages.  They won't pick a new group until they are done with the "whimmen" and ''teh gays."

                  They don't even know why they're picking on the whimmen and 'teh gays'.   Women probably because of Pelosi being Speaker, and gays because back when the AIDS epidemic started that was supposed to be a sign from G*d that the end times were starting, and this was supposed to be the plague that destroyed Mankind.

                  I think the anti viral drugs and safe sex education weren't factored into their calculations.

                  They also like to pick on the "Mooslum Terrorists" and any other non Christian denominations.  Maybe the Chinese. Maybe they'll ramp up hate of Latinos.  Who knows.  

                  "Toads of Glory, slugs of joy... as he trotted down the path before a dragon ate him"-Alex Hall/ Stop McClintock

                  by AmericanRiverCanyon on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:59:20 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Why does this piss you off? (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  lazybum, AmericanRiverCanyon

                  This needs to be recognized in order to get organized now... in an effective manner this time.

                  I hope it is perhaps the fact that when we call the campaign to fight H8 a clusterfuck (and it was) we are not assigning blame to anyone but those who chose and directed the failed strategy and remained complacent until it was too late. And at least, I'm only pointing fingers at them in the interest of improving the campaign next time.

                  This was right out of the old DNC playbook, when it needed to be a reflection of the Dean/Obama new effective way of doing things.

                  The Mormon church is the best organized religious group there is... not recognizing that the old campaign was a disorganized failure will not help with fighting the wingnuts.

                  You are correct that this hateful victory will embolden them to do this again and again, with right after right, and group after group.

                  We can't be complacent again.

                  •  It pisses me off because the 1st Amendment (5+ / 0-)

                    was written specifically to prevent ordinary citizens from having to seek approval first from church elders before doing anything within our secular democracy.

                    These propositions against gay marriage are about as UN-separate where it comes to church and state as anything I've seen in recent years - and NOW (!!!) the victims of this aggregious wrong are convincing themselves that they should have fought harder rather than standing tall and insisting that these churches had NO RIGHT WHAT SO EVER to even involve themselves in this question of citizens' rights in our SECULAR DEMOCRACY.

                    The Church has no standing here.  They had NO RIGHT to bring this initiative forward.  I hate ballot initiatives - they really are not democratic in any sense of the word imo.

                    •  But chickens, which cannot vote for themselves, (0+ / 0-)

                      ... can now stand up and stretch after giving immaculate birth.

                      Go figure.

                      "Toads of Glory, slugs of joy... as he trotted down the path before a dragon ate him"-Alex Hall/ Stop McClintock

                      by AmericanRiverCanyon on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 02:59:43 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  You are looking at this from 30,000 feet. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      asimbagirl, lazybum

                      Yes, I agree with your take on the very right of even bringing such a thing to a vote.

                      But we are not there, we are down here, in the imperfect muck, and we in CA need to change some basic processes in making laws here to help make this kind of crap impossible in the future.

                      I loathe that any religion has sway over our laws... but... see the last eight years? We are where we are, regardless of how horrible that is.

                      That is where my question comes from. From in the weeds, where people are getting the vote out.

                      Please read this again... I am not making a blanket accuastion against anyone, I am bringing up the very real shortcomings of the actions of a small group, shortcomings that were a big part of Tuesday's failure.

                      I hope it is perhaps the fact that when we call the campaign to fight H8 a clusterfuck (and it was) we are not assigning blame to anyone but those who chose and directed the failed strategy and remained complacent until it was too late. And at least, I'm only pointing fingers at them in the interest of improving the campaign next time.

                      •  My 30,000 feet is the most passionate and (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        esquimaux, carllaw

                        I believe righteous argument against a Prop 8.

                        Furthermore, I am offended that anyone could be convinced to blame themselves for failing to fight off such a Goliath as these churches who banded together turned out to be.  This has nothing to do with YOU.  The diarist says the proponents of the measure are to be commended for running a good campaign.  To me that is like saying that bank robbers are to be commended for getting away with the loot.

                        The game was rigged against you from the get go and we have rules against rigging the game in the way they did.  Specifically but not limited to the 1st Amendment.

                        •  I disagree, but we can do that here. (0+ / 0-)

                          Thank you for the discussion.

                          •  I am totally confused. (0+ / 0-)

                            Do you really disagree that you and I are not required by law to ask for the church elders' blessing for our life choices in this secular democracy?

                            Because that is my point.

                            Who is next?

                            Me because I am a woman?  Will they insist that I observe their view of the role as a woman in our society and attempt to codify that?  Am I to believe that their "win" is somehow justified because I did not do enough to talk them out of it?  That I didn't do enough to talk people who believe me to be inferior out of their views?  Am I to believe that somehow at this point in history that is "fair"?  Is that what I have to look forward to?

                          •  I'll jump in here (0+ / 0-)

                            Because I disagree. We are required to ask the church elders to approve our life choices.

                            Even if we're atheist (like I am). Even if the first amendment says we shouldn't. We do. That's the way it is.

                            Like the Late Great George Carlin once said, "This nation was fucked from the minute the priests and the traders took over."

                            We haven't been a "secular" democracy for years, if ever. Not in my lifetime. Nothing "secular" about this place.

                            What do you call a parent that believes in abstinence only sex ed? A Grandparent.

                            by ChurchofBruce on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 06:07:55 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, I happen to think that the best way (0+ / 0-)

                            to deal with them is to re-establish their clear boundaries.  If we do not, this trend will continue and more and more people will get hurt.  I will not accept the premise that this is a theocracy.  It can be argued that it is more and more operating as one, but that doesn't mean that I accept that.

                            And as a practical matter, just how do you propose we get into those churches run by the hostile preachers that led this disenfranchisement effort?  Do you think they're gonna say "Yeah, come on in and tell us your side of the story"?  Under our Constitution you have no right to enter their churches without an invitation.  They are trying to have it both ways here and they need to be told to keep their ballot initiatives in their churches and to stop foisting them upon the rest of us.

          •  What did you do to try to convince your family (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lazybum

            that their efforts would be better expended fighting prop 8? Many here who have family or friends in California are probably wondering whether they could have done more to help the no on 8 campaign from outside the state in ways other than just donating money.

            It seems like you're saying that you foresaw that prop 8 had a chance of passing, so you naturally would have done everything you could to educate your family about the danger and persuade them to focus their efforts elsewhere. What did you do and why weren't you successful?

            •  I begged. I pleaded. I donated. (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sychotic1, lazybum, lollydee, Deoliver47

              I begged my family and friends in CA to fight in CA.  I used myself as an example.  In Washington State, we knew Obama was going to win, but I stayed and fought here for downticket races.

              Believe me, I tried.  I failed.  I am guilty too.

              Hope you enjoyed it, Sarah, 'cause we just kicked your silly winking folksy lipsticked ass back to Alaska. For good. Also.

              by Kaili Joy Gray on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:24:30 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  unless you were in the anti-Prop 8 (7+ / 0-)

          leadership, none of this applies to you.

          AFAIK, NOBODY is blaming the grunts any more than sane people blame Detroit assembly line workers for the clusterfuck Big Three senior management have turned the US auto industry into.

          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

          by alizard on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:26:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  read the first sentence (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kriser

            of the post I responded to.

            Every Californian is at fault here.

            Pretty much not limited to the No on 8 leadership.

            "Poverty or wealth can make all the differences in securing the substance or only the shadow of constitutional protections." -Wiley Rutledge

            by asimbagirl on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:33:29 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  as I said (0+ / 0-)

              the anti-prop 8 people failed because THEY DID NOT MAKE THEIR CASE TO THE CALIFORNIA VOTERS.

              The much better-funded Prop 10 failed for that reason, and AFAIK, T. Boone Pickens is NOT gay.

              While I agree with you that the anti-bigotry case should never have to be made, we have to work with the electorate we've got, not the electorate we'd like.

              Bashing the CA voting population as a whole including the people who voted against 8 may make you feel better, but it will NOT provide the LGBT community of CA with equal rights. Not now, and not ever.

              The polling results of which groups voted for and against the initiative need to be used to plan strategy for the next campaign, not for attacking voters who didn't have the case made for them against 8 because the anti-Prop 8 leadership failed.

              Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

              by alizard on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:06:25 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  uh, okay. READ MY ORIGINAL POST. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kriser, alizard

                seriously, you must have responded to the wrong person.

                Bashing the CA voting population as a whole including the people who voted against 8 may make you feel better, but it will NOT provide the LGBT community of CA with equal rights. Not now, and not ever.

                I did no such thing.  

                Look at my original post - the one you posted this response to. My response to you was to clarify why I was posting.

                The reason I posted was because I TOOK ISSUE WITH THE ORIGINAL POSTER for doing just what you accused ME of.

                "Poverty or wealth can make all the differences in securing the substance or only the shadow of constitutional protections." -Wiley Rutledge

                by asimbagirl on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:09:04 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  I know for a fact (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                asimbagirl, alizard

                that asimbagirl actively worked for the no on 8 campaign....and stayed in CA, instead of coming to Nevada with me, to work on defeating the proposition.

                She is very actively involved in getting rid of it.

                I think you may have responded to the wrong post.

                The moment there is suspicion about a person's motives, everything he does becomes tainted - Gandhi

                by kriser on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:16:24 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  IceBergSlim is Right... (5+ / 0-)

          Opponents to Prop 8 is making a big mistake in lashing out at voters.  Voters have the right to vote for or against any referendum or proposition they want for whatever reason.  The truth is that the organization to educate and fight back against a well planned and well organized pro-Prop 8 initiative was outgunned and slow to mount an attack.  By the time the opponents realized that they were behind, it was too late.

          Like any political issue, including civil and human rights ones, the masses have to be educated.  You stay away from 'third-rail' buzz words and create new ones that those who you seek support from can rally in your favor.

          The proper course of action is on the federal legislative and judical levels as it was for the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s.  

          But if Prop 8 opponents persist in attacking those voters who will be later needed to push for equal rights for the gay and lesbian community, they won't win them over and they will continue to fail to achieve their goal.

          •  pushing against an open door here (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kriser

            are you sure you meant to respond to me? If so, I'd like you to point out exactly where I've lashed out at any voters.

            "Poverty or wealth can make all the differences in securing the substance or only the shadow of constitutional protections." -Wiley Rutledge

            by asimbagirl on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:26:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry but (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mellowwild

          too little too late.  The NO campaign was poorly thought out and organized.  They underestimated how stupid people are in general, how easily swayed by misleading advertising.  Nobody was giving any money until way too late, and we should've been getting money from outside the state as well.  What we needed was money to put ads showing the FACES and stories of people about to lose their rights in people's living rooms.  I blame the campaign infinitely more than "Californians", whose intelligence it is always folly to overestimate.  I mean, just look who sits in the governor's mansion.

          Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the causes of destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest... Gibbon

          by Dinclusin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 02:41:05 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  nice. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kriser, Purple Priestess

            I blame the campaign infinitely more than "Californians", whose intelligence it is always folly to overestimate.  I mean, just look who sits in the governor's mansion.

            now you're insulting my intelligence? Because every Californian must have voted for Ahnuld, right? Please. I fought the recall, I voted against the recall, and then I voted for Bustamante.

            And as far as "Sorry but too little too late", you're right of course. And it's a GREAT idea to denigrate the efforts of people who did try to do the right thing in the face of crappy organization.

            "Poverty or wealth can make all the differences in securing the substance or only the shadow of constitutional protections." -Wiley Rutledge

            by asimbagirl on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:40:16 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  It's America's fault. (0+ / 0-)

          In saying all Californians are at fault, I interpreted that to mean that it was a collective failure and there are no Angry Mouse could easily have said that America is at fault and the point would have been the same, the same way we could have said that Jim Crow segregation was America's fault, not just the fault of southern states; the same way slavery was America's fault, not just the fault of slave-owners.  

          It's only when we take collective responsibility for injustice, even if we lack individual culpability, that powerful social and political movements are born.  

          Those northern white civil rights activists who gave their life up in the fight for racial justice saw it as America's problem, and therefore the responsibility of all Americans to defeat.  

      •  Um, no we are not all at fault. (24+ / 0-)

        Please don't feed the divisiveness already festering between groups who should be working together.

        We in CA carried a lot of the load that enabled the swing states even farther than NV to keep their people out on the streets instead of in their offices. We worked hard in an electoral climate like no other seen before...

        How were we supposed to know (especially those huge numbers of us who have never gotten involved with campaigning before) that this was in trouble when the damn No on H8 people themselves thought it was in the bag?

        Prop H8 was pushed by the Mormon church and others... the Mormon church has been planning this for years, and they are the best organized group on the right, rivaling anything Rove could do.

        The No on H8 campaign was inept, shortsighted and complacent... they did NO GOTV, for dog's sake. They put their money into media consultants instead of ground game... what does that remind you of... DNC, anyone?

        To move on and fix the damage, which should be done, at the same time as the court cases happen... with what's been learned as a lesson on how not to take anything for granted, even in California. Not when the wingnuts are playing for keeps.

        We need to go Obama on them... the diarist is spot on with that. Outreach, outreach, outreach.

        I had someone last night equate outreach with pandering! Yeah, that's the spirit... NOT. Come on people, please?

        Your comment is a big disappointment coming from a commenter I respect deeply. That's kind of sad...

        :-(

        •  Please see my comment above. (6+ / 0-)

          I'm sorry to disappoint you.  Frankly, I'm disappointed my by home state, where I was born and raised and lived until three years ago.

          You are right -- we don't need to be attacking each other.  But I hope that Californians will, in the future, pay attention to downticket issues, even when the state looks "safe" for the top of the ticket.

          Hope you enjoyed it, Sarah, 'cause we just kicked your silly winking folksy lipsticked ass back to Alaska. For good. Also.

          by Kaili Joy Gray on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:48:30 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's not that we weren't paying attention. (11+ / 0-)

            People were mostly getting organized politically during the conventions. At that point, McCain (briefly) went ahead in the polls, while Prop 8 seemed safely behind. Most Californians that I know freaked out at that point and devoted most of their efforts to the Presidential campaign.

            Yes on 8, with at that point wildly disproportionate funding, went on an ad blitz that was, simply devastating. It was exactly the sort of slick, deadly campaign that we'd been dreading in the Presidential race.

            When 8 went ahead in the polls, everyone began trying to organize in a panic, but it took another few weeks before money was raised and No on 8 was really firing on all cylinders. Unfortunately, No on 8 ran exactly the kind of limp, mealy-mouthed campaign that used to kill us on a Presidential level.

            There are thousands upon thousands of compelling human stories in the gay marriage fight in California. No on 8 didn't present a single one of them. The No on 8 ads avoided mentioning what the issue even was—lots of mouthing about fairness and discrimination, but scarcely a mention of the actual people who were being discriminated against.

            Then, again, the campaign ran no ground game to speak of. Individual people were strongly no on 8, donating money (as I did myself), and trying to push for it, but that is no substitute for effective organization. Your lesbian friends didn't just jump in a jeep and drive to NV; the Obama campaign's exquisite organization let them do so effectively and well. The No on 8 campaign simply didn't provide the same sort of organization.

            I'm convinced that we can win this next time around, but we need an effective organization first. In 8 years we went from 61-39 to something like 52-48, even with questionable organization and a month of lag before we were engaged.

            •  Thank you for outlining what happened... (4+ / 0-)

              ... so well!

              Bravo.

            •  Agreed. (4+ / 0-)

              Better organization is the key to any victory.  I think Dean's 50-state strategy, implemented and improved by Obama, proves that.

              On the other hand, there was sort of a conflict, wasn't there?  Obama's organization encouraged people in "safe" states to go fight in battleground states.  But that meant fewer people in the safe states to fight the battles within their state.  I'm not blaming Obama for this, by the way, but I do see it as a problem that will need to be addressed in future races: how to find the balance of people who can go fight in battleground states and also fight in their own states.

              Hope you enjoyed it, Sarah, 'cause we just kicked your silly winking folksy lipsticked ass back to Alaska. For good. Also.

              by Kaili Joy Gray on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:46:36 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  My personal suspicion... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Osiris, mellowwild

                which may or may not be correct, is simply that the major gay rights organizations haven't really retooled yet for this new modern reality in which they're electorally competitive.

                The gay rights organizations formed in an era in which their main goals were getting the cops to stop making indecency and sodomy arrests. They're dynamite in court, and very good at fighting local fights in areas where their support is atypically strong. Until this decade, that was exactly what they needed. There was no reason to try to build a statewide electoral organization—after all, what chance was there that a majority of the state would support homosexuals?

                Except, of course, that thanks to overwhelming support among people in their twenties, gay rights really could now win at the ballot box, if the appropriate organization to support it could be built.

                Hopefully, now that we all know that it's possible, we can retool for statewide electoral fights and finish this journey for once and all.

        •  re: "feeding divisiveness" (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FeastOr, homogenius, Osiris

          Sorry, but I don't acknowledge the kumbaya you seem to see. My rights were just taken away in Florida, not California.  I'm not willing to sit down and play nice right now.

          You can blame organization to some extent, but the real problem is the bigotry and ignorance fed by groups like the Mormons. Else, it would have gone down to defeat without any campaign. Right now many of us are very angry and very anxious to force these mormons and religious bigots to face the mirror. I support ALL efforts to do so, no matter how "divisive" you find them to be.

          •  My point is that the divisivness is taking away.. (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kriser, churchylafemme, 1BQ, sab39, mellowwild

            ... from the effort to fix this wrong. I see the divisiveness as shooting down the effort before it even hits the ground. We will not get to the objective without everyone on board.

            I'm not the best writer in the world.

            Of course the real problem is the bigotry, and the Mormons etc. played a perfect game at selling their POV to everyone from outright bigots to those who were scared into thinking "they want to teach this to my kids..."

            Difficult as it may seem, the path to victory is through peeling off that latter group, and outreach is the way. Just like the Obama campaign did.

            Calling my efforts "kumbaya" is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about, driving away those who need to be together. If you indeed support ALL efforts, you will refrain from ridiculing those trying to help, please?

            •  Exactly (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mellowwild

              Obama just won the presidency because he rejected divisiveness and appealed to all segments including those who traditionally disagree with him.

              McCain just lost the presidency because he stoked divisiveness and insulted anyone who disagreed with him (including, sometimes, insulting his own supporters enough to drive them away).

              If we want to fix the situation, we need to take the approach that works, not the one that fails.

              John McCain, 2008: "Can someone look up my position on John McCain 2000?"

              by sab39 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:28:56 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  not quite right (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          highacidity
          No on 8 had a tremendous ground game, especially at the end, on election day.  They just deployed it ineptly.

          Hawkish on impeachment.

          by clyde on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 02:25:37 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  What outcome would you have preferred? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        alizard

        Prop 8 defeated and McCain in the White House?

        Please take the 50,000 foot view for now:

        While I can (and do) agree with everyone's disappointment that a major religious power (think Utah) was able to influence a proposition election by the application of MONEY ("I'm Shocked, Shocked to find that happening here"!), I think that I would prefer we have a President Obama for now, and work to repeal the Prop 8 initiative in 2010.

        I agree it SUCKS for now, but better we have a great President, who can lend weight to this argument going forward. Under a Preznit McCain, you'd have had Prop 8s EVERYWHERE in the USA, little by little.

        Barack Obama - a President WE can count on (finally)!

        by dagnome on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:03:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  We could easily have had (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          musing85, esquimaux, icebergslim

          Prop 8 defeated and still elected Obama.

          First, the No on 8 campaign was a disgrace. Gross incompetence and negligence IMO.

          Further, I suspect some Californians saw Prop 8 well behind earlier in the year and grew complacent.

          And even with Obama well ahead in the polls, I had a ghastly vision of a combination of racism and complacency that might result in a McCain win. So I can understand Californians (in a safe Obama State) focusing their energies in other states.

          Unfortunately it added up to a devastating defeat for civil rights which has, for me, sucked much of the joy out of Obama's victory.

          President McCain would have been infinitely worse, but somehow it doesn't make me feel any better right now.

        •  and under President Palin. . . (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Neglected Duty, mellowwild

          gays (and the rest of us) would have "reeducation camps" paid for by our tax dollars to worry about.

          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

          by alizard on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:55:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Well NV calls were helpful (0+ / 0-)

        Let's not forget that mission number 1 was to get Barack Obama elected president.  I'm not going to fault Californians (I'm a native one myself) for working their hearts out for change.  But I do agree that the No on 8 campaign was terribly run - it's almost unheard of for a proposition to poll less than 50% and end up carrying the day (undecideds almost always break heavily against propositions in CA).  

        It was a massive, total failure to communicate coupled with sheer arrogance on the part of the folks directing No on 8 (there's word that people were already celebrating 8's defeat even before polls closed on Tuesday).  

        But here's the thing about this issue: even incompetence won't keep it from winning the day eventually.  We just launched a new era in America and this abomination will be overturned at the ballot box (not the courts!).

        Give me liberty, or give me death!

        by salsa0000 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:04:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  to be blunt (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Nina, vcmvo2, esquimaux, expatyank

        Prop 8 won because its opponents did not make their case to the California voters.

        The anti-Prop 8 leadership appears to have been disorganized and ineffective. Not a good thing when the bad guys are putting in $70M and sending in "volunteers" by the busload.

        Example: they depended on CA Obama GOTV ... without checking to find out if there was going to be any and without polling to find out if vote for Obama = vote against Prop 8.

        Example: their ads. They by and large, sucked, the only good ad I remember from them was "Home Invasion", which didn't appear until it was too late to do any good.

        Also, serious investigation of highly probable LDS breach of of IRS regulations regarding politics conducted by religious organizations needs to be done. IMO, the people who said "iffy but probably legal" based this on media coverage based on statements made by the proposition backers, which very probably have the same relationship to fact as the content of pro-8 ads.

        How well did LDS firewall church finances from Prop 8 spending? Or maybe they didn't bother figuring on Bush political appointees not investigating regardless of how obvious violations were.

        Kneecap LDS and even a badly done repeal campaign would probably win, and it would discourage other major religious organizat

        Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

        by alizard on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:23:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  i do not think it means what you think it means (0+ / 0-)

        i don't think that was the point of the diary, i don't think he was trying to say that the people who opposed prop 8 are to blame for failing to beat the mormon church.  if that were the case it wouldn't make sense for him to have commended the pervasive nature of the yes on 8 campaign.  you have to remember that the mormons raised 25 million for their campaign, and immediately linked the issue to education and teaching  children about homosexual marriages, which some people were uncomfortable with.  the truth of the matter, that marriage in general is not taught in school, was brought up by the no on 8 people, but not soon enough, and not in as effective of a way.
        it isn't fair to suggest that california liberals while working for several other campaigns at the same time should be able to beat an entire church focusing its strength on one specific issue.  it just doesn't work.  even in the gay community you have to remember there were other important issues than just prop 8, i'm not saying it wasn't extremely important but seriously now if mccain were elected the next supreme court would strike down all kinds of gay rights anyways.

        in short, don't be a dick, we fought hard, they beat us.

        the next step of course is litigation -- and there's a good chance that the amendment vs revision argument will gain traction and we'll overturn this one again.

      •  Yea Slim! Now we have to undo the damage (5+ / 0-)

        being created by bloggers who are pushing this crap.  Bad enough the TM is running with it.  

        For example - this was on the rec list at MyDD this morning:

        why are african americans so intolerant of others? Add to Hotlist

        by gladiatorsback, Fri Nov 07, 2008 at 09:01:53 PM EST
        For me its personal.. as personal as it is for african americans to see Obama become president.. firstly my post election analysis.. GOOD Obama won.. congrats to him.. we made it happen.. we saw history happen and contributed to it with our support. and good that Mccain lost.. failed bush policies and markets still reeling :(

        Having said that.. I want to know why African americans are so intolerant towards other minorities? Why did 80% of AA vote in support of prop8. Why do these people hate people who are different than them?

        http://www.mydd.com/...

        Thankfully it is gone now - but it gave me a jolt, as did a slew of diaries and comments here.

        I have my suspicions about certain PUMA types driving this wedge.

        We have work to do - serious groundwork, and we also have to stop a breach from occurring in our own ranks.  Let the Republican continue to eat each other alive.  We need to be 4 fingers and a thumb - balled into a tight fist to fight all the "isms".

        Anthropologists for human diversity; opposing McCain perversity

        by Denise Oliver Velez on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 03:07:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  EVERY Californian???? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        asimbagirl, kriser, esquimaux

        That's neither accurate nor fair. Many of us did everything we could, including things the campaign itself would not or did not do.

      •  **I am a Californian who TRIED to convince her (5+ / 0-)

        churchy friends and neighbors that denying rights was a terrible thing to do.  I'm really getting tired of all the people blaming those of us who tried to fight the good fight.  I admit working hard to get Obama elected.  It was easy to do.  There was organization in place.  Perhaps the gay community should look at themselves a little more closely.  What kind of outreach were you doing?  How easy did you make it for those of us who are not part of the gay community to know how to be the most effective?  All of this finger-pointing (while I'm pointing fingers :)  ) is really annoying.  

        **Yeah, I'm mad! I've been paying attention.

        by greylox on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:40:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I agree with asimbagirl... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        asimbagirl, esquimaux, mellowwild

        maybe you can blame every Californian who didn't actively campaign for No on 8, or every Californian who didn't donate to No on 8...

        but you can't blame those who left everything on the road for No on 8.  That is not fair, and an insult to those of us did.

        Yes, 8 passed, but we are not giving up.  

        The moment there is suspicion about a person's motives, everything he does becomes tainted - Gandhi

        by kriser on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:46:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Amen (0+ / 0-)

        We're all at fault. I gave money, and now I wish I had given more.  Given 'til it hurt.  

        The only comfort I take today is that this issue is dead in the future. The next generation is not going to support anti-gay legislation. It's a matter of time.  

        I wish that time were now, but I'm pledging to do my part to kick some ass next time.

      •  Please read my diary on the progressive movement (0+ / 0-)

        President Barack Obama - #44

        by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:37:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  AM (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        icebergslim

        Not all Californians voted yes.  Please don't believe that all Californians agreed with the passage of Prop 8. The Mormon Church had a very agressive campaign on tv.  The opponents of Prop 8 was too late in changing attitudes.

        Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official... ~Theodore Roosevelt

        by Pam from Calif on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:27:22 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Real as always Slim. Real as always (11+ / 0-)

      And I was wondering what you were going to do with the blog name after Tuesday. Smart as always.

    •  One small point (13+ / 0-)

      We don't yet know whether Prop 8 passed or not.  We have several million ballots not yet counted (provisionals mostly).  I trust Secretary of State Bowen to make sure they all get counted.

      Much like Minnesota, where Secretary of State Ritchie will make sure we have a careful hand count of all ballots in the Franken-Coleman race.

      For those who case, we don't yet know who won ANY of the Alaska races (Berkowitz could have won just as easily as Begich), and things look very suspicious up there -- Republicans are probably monkeying with the ballot counting.  Begich's staff seems to be on top of it, but I'm sure they wouldn't mind help.

      And likewise, we don't know whether Georgia's Senate seat is really supposed to be going to a runoff or not, because that state's election systems are a complete unmitigated disaster.  With no paper ballots, we can't even recount.

      People here assume election results far too quickly.  "Prop 8 probably passed" would be right.

      -5.63, -8.10. Learn about Duverger's Law.

      by neroden on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:08:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I hope Kos posts this on the front page and ... (11+ / 0-)

      .... keeps it there for a few days.

      We must elevate this to a national civil rights issue and make it stick - nationally.

      No church, no organization, no one should be able to obstruct the right for each person to form a loving and legal union with another person, and for life.  

      This right must be genderless at its core and as inalienable as any right a human has.

      Thank you for your cogent assessment of the situation and the way forward.

      Peace,
      Bob

    •  Excellent points (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kate mckinnon, highacidity, Nina, Matt Z

      I kept waiting for what I thought would be a successful attack on the ballot measure (it will be an amendment to the constitution, but it's not legislation) in a libertarian vein.

      My explanation for this: I think an ad that highlighted the fact that another state, outsiders, interlopers were trying to tell us what to do. Trying to run our state. In my vision, the ad wouldn't have the sympathetic lesbian couple. It wouldn't really feature much about gay marriage or gay couples at all. It would focus on an outside entity trying to force their agenda on California.

      Maybe because I'm in SF and this market was strongly anti-Prop. 8, I didn't see ads that ran in So. Cal or inland. Does anyone know if this line of attack was used?

      I think the problem with the sympathetic lesbian couple was that most of the viewers of the ad weren't gay. My feeling is there are many voters who don't identify with the orientation while they would identify with the dislike of interference.

      Another thing that occurred to me is that Yes on Prop. 8 was running very strong when there were ads claiming gay marriage would be taught in grade school. I think this was devastating. Parents get very uneasy about this topic, whether or not the assertion was truthful.

      There was a counter ad that denied it (I forgot who was featured, it wasn't Jerry Brown, but maybe some other well known pol) and I think it worked to help No on 8 gain ground, but it was answered with an ad about first graders going to their teacher's wedding. No response from the "no" campaign on that one.

      Again, I'm in SF. Don't know if this holds true for the rest of the state.

      As for who voted on it and what influence that had....I think all that tells us is there is much work to be done across the board. If the white or latino population were less evenly divided, the more unified vote of any population would have mattered less.

      Also, there have been FOUR elections thus far this year in SF. People were really, really tired of it. I wonder if the turnout in SF, which was high, but seriously below 2004, was affected by that weariness.

    •  God, thank you, Ice. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nina, Lady Libertine, mellowwild

      President Barack Obama!

      by kate mckinnon on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:18:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Absolutely right -- and this should be a lesson (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wbr, esquimaux, AmericanRiverCanyon

      to EVERY STATE.

      They will do this to your state if they haven't already.  They have been working on this for a decade.  They have multiple organizations and hundreds of millions of dollars to do their work against civil rights of gays.

      The investigative work we've done in Michigan, where same-sex marriage was banned by a changed to our constitution in 2004 revealed that multiple right-wing organizations use same-sex marriage as a wedge issue, to increase the turn-out of conservatives.  It didn't work as a wedge issue in California, but it did further conservatives' agenda in spite of it.

      We'll now have to spend considerable time and energy at undoing the damage, and that's money we won't have to spend on recruiting and grooming new progressive candidates, or spend on progressive think tanks.  

      This is a systemic problem, not a single occurrence.  What happened in CA could be seen coming from years away, and it's coming to your state if you haven't already had a ban on same-sex marriage. Get organized now.

    •  My dear ice, I do not want you to take this the (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sychotic1, Osiris, esquimaux

      ... wrong way.

      This issue will lose Big Time at the Supreme Court level, if it gets that far, because of Scalia, Thomas, Alito, Roberts-  all of them were put on that Court because of their ultra conservative religious philosophy and their very maleness which they think gives them automatic superiority, and their willingness to preserve the "cultural" hierarchy.

      Change has to come from the bottom up.

      I cannot address this problem with any one else's demographic voting overwhelmingly for this proposition, and have any sort of street credibility.  

      It's not any "one" demographics fault, but some demographics really tried to help pass the thing more than others.

      I cannot compete with Churches who teach that the "Bible says" certain demographics are automatically sinners and that parishioners will go to hell if they don't work for and vote for certain propositions.

      This was not "sold to the public."  It was sold to THE CHURCH SOCIAL GROUPS and they merely instruct the followers and the followers do it.

      The denominations participating in trying to get this passed, got what they wanted, (Republicans with viable candidacies, and a built- in martyr complex to validate their "persecuted" status, plus any discussion of prop 8 takes away from the news about what Obama is actually DOING right now)  and now the followers feel emboldened,  I was reading the comments under a story posted on the Sacramento Bee website earlier today and was rather sickened by the blatant hatemongering going on by the proponents of prop 8.  The Sacbee, to boost their revenues and # of hits, is turning to more of a tabloid format.

       Folks must be informed about what this legislation entails and must understand that this is about the everyday man's civil rights in this country.  This was not explained.

      Oh, it was explained all right, over and over again, but the people who pushed prop 8  do not agree that it was about "everyday man's civil rights."   That argument may appeal to the non fundie- evangelicals but it's a dead end with many of the church folk.

      So now we're going to be stuck with this turkey of a topic during the 2010 and 2012 elections.  

      "Toads of Glory, slugs of joy... as he trotted down the path before a dragon ate him"-Alex Hall/ Stop McClintock

      by AmericanRiverCanyon on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:39:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're wrong (0+ / 0-)

        Scalia and Thomas were on the Court in 1996 when Romer v. Evans was handed down, 6-3. Rehnquist is dead, and O'Connor has retired from that Court, but everybody else is still there. Assuming that Roberts would vote on anything to do with Prop H8 in the same way that Rehnquist voted on Romer, and assuming further that Alito would vote with Roberts, but that everybody else voted as they did on Romer, we'd win 5-4. And given that Romer was the case that established that the electorate can't vote to make anyone a second-class citizen, a point which is central to any case involving Prop H8, I like our chances.

        •  LOL, at least you are consistent (0+ / 0-)

          ... even if you do not travel in the same universe but exist in some parallel reality.

          Assuming your internet personality really is the same gender as that of these Supreme Court Justices you were waxing so eloquently about, please don't be disappointed in their future decisions.

          "Toads of Glory, slugs of joy... as he trotted down the path before a dragon ate him"-Alex Hall/ Stop McClintock

          by AmericanRiverCanyon on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:54:57 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Speaking of alternative realities (0+ / 0-)

            Why don't you go back to whichever one it was you came from?

            And no, I'm not a hermaphrodite. (In case it has escaped your notice, Sandra Day O'Connor is a woman. Clarence Thomas, Antonin Scalia, William Rehnquist, Samuel Alito, and John Roberts are all men.)

    •  Thank you! (0+ / 0-)

      Goodness.

      WIll Mccain answer the phone at 3am? depends on which house you call

      by Ambboogie on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 03:08:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  My scathing criticism of the black community (0+ / 0-)

      had nothing to do with whether or not blacks were at fault for passing Prop 8. It had to do with the fact that blacks voted 70-30 for Prop 8, voted 71-29 to pass gay marriage in Florida, and at a clip of 65-70% across the nation believe that gays should not have equal rights.

      For my community to weep and cry and moan over how wonderful progress in this country looks when Obama was elected, and in the same breath take away the rights of my other community is nothing but sheer bigotry and hypocrisy.

      And quite frankly they deserve the criticism and vitriol they get.

      The people of this Kos community directed it so much as the mormons. Why is it all of a sudden such a horrible thing for it to be directed at the black community as well?

      I'll tell you why. Because too many people are too scared to criticize the black community.

      Hell, I get HR'd to oblivion for harsh comments I made about the black community in another diary. But you know what? Fuck it. The black community has a lot to answer for with respect to homophobia.

      Every other ethnicity voted roughly 50-50. Blacks voted 70-30. There's an enormous problem there, and acting as if black opposition is equal to the opposition experienced in other communities won't change that.

      Otherwise, perhaps you should try walking in this gay black man's shoes to see how bad it gets.

      President Barack Obama - #44

      by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:07:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your slanted scathing criticism (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SDuvall, mellowwild

        I think most of the straight Blackfolks on here have agreed our peoples need some educating and outreach. That was a dismaying turnout.

        We're saying EVERYONE has responsibility, is all. All sides who were opponents.

        The PC police weren't after you; folks were tired of your repeated vitriol and refusal to engage in dialogue.

        We got it by your 40th post: you're sick of Black people. Okay.

        Some of us are ready to problem-solve in a community you are done with. So, your reminders about that gap just refreshes your wounds.

        We're ready to move on decreasing that gap. No one is going to ask you to work with the Black community since it's too painful. Just don't spit on those of us who will do the work.

        Drinking Belvi lemon drops in solidarity with the C&J Party since 2004. http://i-dreamed-i-was.livejournal.com/6105.html

        by Lexicon on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:08:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I responded 40 times because I got 40 layers (0+ / 0-)

          of crap for speaking my mind.

          And I didn't see the defensiveness and cries of racism when diarists were calling for the mormons to be exposed for donating to the cause.

          It's hypocrisy, plain and simple. And until people like you understand that hypocrisy and underlying homophobia in the black community, you'll never get anywhere.

          President Barack Obama - #44

          by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:46:20 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, I don't get it. (0+ / 0-)

            People actually were chastising the anti-Mormon hate. I don't see how they could cry racism against Mormons, but I don't exactly get your point.

            I do see hypocrisy in our community, as well as homophobia. I do go to church. I'm just saying we CAN get somewhere. You're the one who gave up. And that's fine.

            I'm not giving up. It's my community, and I will work within it.

            Drinking Belvi lemon drops in solidarity with the C&J Party since 2004. http://i-dreamed-i-was.livejournal.com/6105.html

            by Lexicon on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 06:29:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Really? People were chastising the anti-mormon (0+ / 0-)

              hate? That's why several diaries were recced who's whole purpose was to go after the mormons?

              Please, the difference in reaction is not even close.

              People in this community are so quick to bash the mormons and white evangelicals for their hatred of gay people.

              When it comes to blacks? Everyone gets defensive and plaintive in their calls for moderation and reaching out.

              It's hypocritical to the Nth degree.

              President Barack Obama - #44

              by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 06:31:30 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  okay... (0+ / 0-)

                but what does that hypocrisy have to do with working in the AA community?

                Are you pointing out two types of hypocrisy you're seeing this week, Black and DKos? If so, okay, I understand what you're saying. If you're equating them, that still doesn't compute.

                Drinking Belvi lemon drops in solidarity with the C&J Party since 2004. http://i-dreamed-i-was.livejournal.com/6105.html

                by Lexicon on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 06:46:22 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  Are phone trees more powerful than the tubes? (0+ / 0-)

      Hmmmmmmm

    •  Why Not Blame the AA's and Latinos? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mellowwild

      Not one single group gave defeat of Prop. 8 the overwhelming support of the Saami-Swedish-Irish community that thinks its Finnish.  Opposition was 100%.  At least I think it was.  I haven't actually checked with my sister, who is the only member in California, but she usually votes right - er, left.

      Obama is president and Jesse Jackson, Jr., probably won't take his place in the Senate because Obama appealed across superimposed ethnic boxes and Jesse Jackson bears the burden imposed by his father.

      The wonder is that the vote was even close.  

      Imagine if Obama had asked everyone to vote for him because he was African-American.  How many votes would he have gotten?

      Hold up your hands.  How many here vote exclusively with those that Chris Matthews tells them represent their ethnic group?  Anybody?

      Now how many here vote for what they think is right - or left?

      Thought so.

      Are those "other people" then so different from we enlightened ones?

      Best,  Terry

  •  Thanks, icebergslim (24+ / 0-)

    for a stiff breeze of common sense.

    Feels good after all the hot air that has been expended on the subject.

    We need to pick the right battles -- which don't involve tearing each other apart -- and then fight like hell.

    Nov. 4, 2008: Our long national nightmare is finally over.

    by Sharoney on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:41:55 AM PST

  •  I agree.... (23+ / 0-)

    The No on Prop 8 organization was abysmal and ineffective.

    From a glass half full perspective, while the vote on Tuesday was disappointing to say the least, it may have been the kick in the ass we needed to organize and fight this smartly.

    In the end, I think the good guys will prevail.

    Any party that would lie to start a war would also steal an election.

    by landrew on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:43:13 AM PST

  •  I teach at a univ (7+ / 0-)

    with students from a variety of backgrounds. They have different opinions on abortion, on the death penalty.

    None of them is bent out of shape about gay marriage.  

    I can see people being upset about prop 8, but the national trend is definitely going the other way.

    •  It maybe trending that way (6+ / 0-)

      but when even the smallest group in America loses their freedom, it is understandable why their voices will soar above the rest. The gay community is hurt and angry. I just hope the blaming and shaming stops because that is the absolute opposite way to correct the wrong that happened. That just turns everyone off to the gay marriage agenda.

      You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

      by tazz on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:13:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed (10+ / 0-)

        I am sorry but I have had about 20 minutes of joy in this election and that was the 20 minutes between Obama winning and the first Prop 8 returns. To see all the talk of "a new day has dawned" and "isn't everything great" does not cut it.

        The entire progressive community got together to elect Obama. Everyone pitched in, but the train called "Hope" pulled out of the station and left the homos back on the platform. 2008 feels worse to me than 2004. At least in 2004 I could turn in any direction and see other people sharing my pain. Instead now, I am greeted with "Hey itsn't everything peachy!!"

        No it is not. It sucks.

        Although I agree that it is silly to pin the blame on one group of people, to simply dismiss the fact that the ban received overwhelming support in the African American community does not move us forward. We need to find a constructive way, without dismissing the incredible sense of betrayal that one feels, to discuss this. Sweeping it under the rug ain't gonna cut it either.

        you scratch a redneck and you will find a liberal underneath.....

        by Schtu on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:30:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, you're seeing the glass half-empty (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fizziks, fernan47, rock2casbah, mellowwild

          when it IT IS MORE THAN HALF FULL.

          While gay marriage hasn't been upheld in public referendum in three states, we do have an intelligent, caring person in the White House once again, and we have majorities in both congressional houses.

          I appreciate your pain, but great strides have been made in several other areas of your life, as well as those of every other person on this planet.

          If your actions speak louder than your words, you're not yelling loud enough. - Stephen Colbert

          by Words In Action on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:09:48 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ummmm, (5+ / 0-)

            this is not some abstract policy that we are talking about. This is my identity.

            The same people who voted for

            Obama,
            High Speed Rail
            Women's Reproductive Rights
            Farm Animals Rights.

            Turned around as said Fuck you Fags.

            No honey, your glass is half full, my glass is half empty and leaking as we speak...

            you scratch a redneck and you will find a liberal underneath.....

            by Schtu on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:20:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  they did't say that (0+ / 0-)

              they didn't see marriage as a civil right.  It isn't the same thing.  They want to imagine marriage in a certain way.  It is silly but not evil.

              "When Obama speaks, Angels orgasm" Jon Stewart, 2008

              by fernan47 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 02:26:05 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  30 years ago (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lady Libertine, mellowwild

              my gay and lesbian friends were only "out" to a precious few people.  Those who lived with each other were relatively safe in only 2 areas of the city, both high crime areas with very rundown housing.  

              Today we have the certainty that equal rights for GLBT's are in process.  That's a huge jump in 30 years, and it makes me hopeful for all of us.

              I'm bi-polar, and face serious job discrimination because of it.  I'm female, and don't earn an equal salary.  James Byrd was dragged to death behind a pickup a few short years ago, and people made lynching "jokes" during this election.  Kids who are gay are bullied and brutalized in middle and high schools, and some are murdered. More commit suicide.  Low income children are failed by our school systems, and children of color face a steep climb on the education ladder.

              There are so many places where we have yet to fulfill dreams and gain simple human rights, but there are even more where basic human rights for everyone are being accepted as the norm.  My church welcomes the GLBT community.  My church has female clergy.  My church fights for justice for the homeless, provides interview training and a wardrobe for women who are leaving abusive relationships, or have lost their homes.  Not all Christians are haters.  

              I understand some of what you're feeling, and I don't want you to despair.  We'll get there, but only if we work together.  Blaming won't speed things up.  We know now that ordinary people can defeat the right wing machine.  Let's get on it.      

               

              •  Oh, we do, do we? (0+ / 0-)

                Where do we get this certainty that gay rights are in process? It's still legal in most states of our Union to fire someone (or refuse to hire them) for being gay. You can still be kicked out of an apartment (or be refused a mortgage to buy a house) if you're gay in most places. You still can't get married to the person you love except in a tiny handful of states--and those marriages have no legal recognition outside of those states. It was only five years ago that the Supreme Court finally decriminalized consensual sex between men or between women--and it's still a crime in the U.S. military. (Technically, it's also illegal for a military man to get a blow job from his wife or girlfriend, or to go down on her, but somehow heterosexuals never get brought up on sodomy charges.) If you're open about who you are (or if you just happen to be unlucky enough to get caught in one of the frequent witch-hunts routinely conducted by the various military investigative services), you can still be kicked out of the armed forces with a less-than-honorable discharge that will follow you for the rest of your life.

                Excuse me for thinking that maybe things aren't exactly all sweetness and light for me and my gay brothers and lesbian sisters.

                •  Well (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mellowwild

                  Thanks a lot for that.  Maybe I'll put my energy into working on equity for the mentally ill.  Best of luck with rounding up supportive people in the future.

                •  You'd have to be blind not to (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mellowwild

                  realize that the world is much better, in many, many ways, now that Bush is leaving the WH and Obama is headed for it.

                  If your actions speak louder than your words, you're not yelling loud enough. - Stephen Colbert

                  by Words In Action on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:36:13 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Gee, thanks, I feel so much better now (0+ / 0-)

                    Except that I don't. Obama isn't a magician. He's not going to be able to wave his hands and make the last eight years disappear. And he doesn't particularly care about this particular issue--in fact, he thinks that I should just shut the fuck up and accept second-class "civil union" status, because marriage is, wait for it, between a man and a woman.

                    •  I attended an Obama celebration last night with (0+ / 0-)

                      GLBT friends in attendance. While they were all disappointed and/or upset over Prop 8, not a single one said they would rather have had Prop 8 succeed and Obama fail on Tuesday night. There's a bigger picture, and most people see it.

                      There are many battles to wage. The fight can and will go on. While it may feel you are alone or unappreciated, you are not.

                      If your actions speak louder than your words, you're not yelling loud enough. - Stephen Colbert

                      by Words In Action on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 08:44:02 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  And you know why nobody said that? (0+ / 0-)

                        Because it's a false dilemma. It would have taken a miracle for Prop H8 to fail and for Obama to lose. He had all the political capital he needed--and then some--to win this election. He could've spent a little more of it helping to beat back the forces of bigotry without risk to the larger goal. He did not. And that disappoints me, although it doesn't surprise me.

                        •  Um, no. (0+ / 0-)

                          The odds of either winning or losing in either case has nothing to do with it. The point remains: everyone agreed that, regardless of the Prop-8 disappointment, the Obama victory was the more important of the two, and we had more to be thankful for than not.

                          If your actions speak louder than your words, you're not yelling loud enough. - Stephen Colbert

                          by Words In Action on Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 07:40:46 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Um, no, yourself (0+ / 0-)

                            "Everyone" did not agree that "the Obama victory was the more important of the two." Everyone certainly did not agree that "we had more to be thankful for than not." Hence the spate of Prop H8 protests, and the flood of diaries on this site.

                            But nice try. Here's Johnny to tell you about the lovely parting gifts we have for you on "Name That Logical Fallacy."

                          •  Um, no, you weren't there. (0+ / 0-)

                            Go back to my initial comment. I was talking about an Obama celebration I ATTENDED, which included several GLBT friends. EVERYONE there agreed.

                            So you can blather all you want about logical fallacies in non-existent conversations, but, meanwhile, my point stands.

                            If your actions speak louder than your words, you're not yelling loud enough. - Stephen Colbert

                            by Words In Action on Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 08:17:10 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Irrelevant (0+ / 0-)

                            The five people you were with do not constitute a valid statistical sample. And if this conversation is "non-existent," why are you replying?

                          •  I made my comment about a celebration (0+ / 0-)

                            I attended, to which you responded without carefully reading it.

                            What is "non-existent" is the argument you were having about whether or not there are people who do not think having Obama in the WH vs. McCain is more important for the US and the World in general at this moment than the defeat of Prop 8.

                            Now, having finally gotten it, you feel a need to dismiss my experience based on your assumptions about the size/sample.

                            Regardless, your insistence to the contrary notwithstanding, having defeated Prop 8 but McCain in the WH would not be a better world for anyone, the past 8 years being ample evidence to most people on the planet.

                            Did you notice, for example, the worldwide celebration?

                            While the Prop 8 defeat was tragic, the global response was far less noticeable.

                            Just the real evidence of a worldwide sample to add to the personal sample I experienced...

                            If your actions speak louder than your words, you're not yelling loud enough. - Stephen Colbert

                            by Words In Action on Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 08:55:45 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Speaking of not getting it (0+ / 0-)

                            You still have not provided any evidence that a defeat of Prop H8 would have led to a McCain win. So my original point, which was that Obama could and should have done far more to help defeat it than he did, remains. Regardless of your irrelevant musings about an insignificant gathering you attended.

                          •  I never said it would. (0+ / 0-)

                            My original and sole point, which you have thoroughly misread several times in order to discuss your own issues, was that, at a celebration I attended, including GLBT friends, everyone expressed remorse over the passage of Prop 8 but universally agreed that Barack Obama's victory was the more important of the two. In fact, one gay friend summed it up just that way: if I had to choose between the two, I'm glad Obama won and Prop 8 was defeated.

                            It has nothing to do with the odds each contest had or the fact that one outcome influenced that of the other, just the simple point that there was still much for EVERYONE to celebrate because Obama had won, despite the loss on Prop 8.

                            That's all. That's it.

                            If your actions speak louder than your words, you're not yelling loud enough. - Stephen Colbert

                            by Words In Action on Fri Nov 14, 2008 at 11:46:38 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

              •  OCD (0+ / 0-)

                As a white male who is healthy and gainfully employed I am not about to say that I do not have things to be thankful for. Frankly, because of my white male privilege  the Bush years did not impact me personally in a way that it did to so many others.

                But part of what makes 2008 so painful was I always tried to take the advantages given to me and use them to fight for others.

                I was there helping Planned Parenthood, even though as a gay man woman's reproductive health had little direct impact on my life.

                I was there raising money for a predominantly African American youth sports team to have uniforms so they would not be ostracized by the wealthy suburban teams when they played out of the city.

                I was there fighting for public transit, for organic farmers, for smart growth.

                I freaking recycle.

                So 2008 was going to be OUR year, meaning the progressives were going to win.  And guess what? WE DID! Except for one thing. Everybody loved the progressive agenda but there was no love for the gays.

                The night after the election, my partner of thirteen years took my hand and just said "We missed our chance."

                you scratch a redneck and you will find a liberal underneath.....

                by Schtu on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:26:46 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm not trying to deny (0+ / 0-)

                  how awful this is for you, I'm saying things have changed a lot, which gives me hope that they'll change even more if we keep pushing, and i want to be part of the push.  Apparently I'm not worthy of being part of the fight, so I guess that's it.

                  •  no one (0+ / 0-)

                    is saying that you are not worth of being part of the fight. I think you are mistaking other peoples comments as mine. yes, i have hope, but it is hard to be happy right now.

                    you scratch a redneck and you will find a liberal underneath.....

                    by Schtu on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:36:57 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm glad you have hope. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      mellowwild

                      I'm sorry you were treated so horribly.  It didn't seem possible to me that prop 8 could be passed, it's such a deplorable, hateful way to treat human beings.  I wish I could help.  {{{{{Schtu & partner}}}}  It's only blog hug, but I'm hurting with you, and I hope you can believe that.

            •  Your glass is still half full now (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mellowwild

              because soon you will have Obama for President, not George Bush.

              You will have a hard time convincing anyone that that isn't a huge improvement in your life as well as everyone elses.

              If your actions speak louder than your words, you're not yelling loud enough. - Stephen Colbert

              by Words In Action on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:38:19 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  The fucking problem being, however, (0+ / 0-)

            that the GLASS IS NOT FULL!

            "Mostly full" is still "not full." And that's not good enough. So stop telling me I should be happy with crumbs and get off your ass and work with me so nobody ever has to take crumbs again.

        •  Agreed. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          homogenius, akasha, Eloise

          I too agree that it's silly and simplistic to assign blame to one or more minority groups for the passage of Prop 8, but at the same time it's not very constructive for said minority groups to deny the pervasive homophobia in their own communities, as documented not only in Tuesday's exit polls, but also in separate polls and studies. I mean, how can we move forward together if we retreat into separate states of defensiveness and denial without confronting our own community's shortcomings on this issue? And I'm tired... TIRED of hearing that gays themselves are to blame for not doing enough outreach to the African American community. Does everyone realize how ludicrous that statement is? This is a simple question of right and wrong. Would anyone have suggested in the past that African Americans themselves would have been to blame for the defeat of civil rights legislation because they didn't do enough outreach to whites? (And campaign organization is another argument completely.) I personally think that African Americans and Hispanics voted against Prop 8 in larger percentages because of religion, and the more prominent role it plays in their communities, than anything else. I heard a quote on NPR from the leader of a large, primarily African American, megachurch in California after Prop 8 was passed. He was stating how marriage is strictly defined in the bible as being between a man and a woman, and that's why he strongly urged his congregants to pass Prop 8. Well, there are passages in the bible that also condone slavery, so it's mystifying how he could pick and choose particular biblical passages in order to oppress one minority group, when others have been used in the past to oppress his community. I just think gays are having a hard time coming to terms with why a minority group that has itself been subject to such horrific repression and discrimination in the past, would vote in such large percentages to repress and discriminate against others. I think that's the real struggle gays are dealing with from this outcome. Not the actual vote totals among each race and ethnic group, including whites, that ultimately lead to its passage.

          I keep moving to be stable. Free to wander, free to roam. - Peter Gabriel

          by wandering i on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:44:07 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  i'm sorry but as one of the very (0+ / 0-)

          small minority of Americans who never married, I just don't see this as the high priority that some around here do.  I am not going to get upset about this.  It is all part of a general move in the right direction with backlash all over the place.  Nothing new here and it is to be expected.  

          I've thought about it a lot and I think pushing for this under in the current political environment was not a wise choice.  

          Marriage conveys a host of social and economic benefits.  That is, in and of itself, wrong, but trying to change that now is not something I am going to invest in.  I have other fish to fry, including gay rights.  

          Marriage should move into the private sphere entirely in my opinion.  

          "When Obama speaks, Angels orgasm" Jon Stewart, 2008

          by fernan47 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 02:24:53 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Agreed. The real story was bad organizing (31+ / 0-)

    by the No on Prop 8 group.  From everything I have read, many opposed to Prop 8 were complacent until a poll came out (late summer or early fall) that showed they were losing.  Well, they should not have waited that long to get proper fundraising, or to put together a coherent message.

    I have found some of the discussions here and elsewhere troubling.  We cannot be a series of interests groups anymore, but need to find common ground to reach our goals.  That is what President-Elect Obama is going to do and has done before.  I hope the talking on this issue can become more civil going forward.

    •  Thanks for this comment... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mellowwild

      I don't live in CA and I have been an avid reader of dailykos since the spring and I didn't see prop 8 as an issue until late summer/early fall on this site. I thought I missed the boat and was unintentionally ignoring this fight.

    •  The Mayor Newsom ad...... (0+ / 0-)

      That was deadly, that was the turning point. And for those that live outside of California, it played on every radio station every five minutes and made him, and by extension the cause, look ridiculous. They used a recording of him at a rally. It was this frog-throated, smarmy, gloating after the court decision legalizing gay marriage.

      The guy is hero in many respects, but can sometimes be very tone deaf politically.

      When I had no roof / I made audacity my roof. --Robert Pinsky

      by Crestingwave on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 02:23:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  come on (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        esquimaux

        he was talking to a group of people inside city hall, it was a celebration. if that is the case then Obama was equally tone deaf politically for say "I do not support gay marriage" so it could be recorded for the Robo calls.

        you scratch a redneck and you will find a liberal underneath.....

        by Schtu on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:35:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Personally, I assumed (10+ / 0-)

    that the power of the religious right was fading, and I still think it is, but it ain't gone. And now they are stronger, in that they feel their bigotry is validated by law.

    •  They have been busy bees. (10+ / 0-)

      Very effective, very successful busy bees.

      Any bets on the next states to get steam rolled?  
      Likely states:

      Do not already have a gay marriage ban.
      Have a Republican governor.
      Potential for Republicans to pick up seats.

      Better get ready and get organized now because these organizations have experience and funding.

      Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

      by Fabian on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:11:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  the power of the religious right nationally (7+ / 0-)

      is fading.

      but the power of the Mormon church regionally is still quite strong.

      paradoxically, this could turn out to be a Pyrrhic victory for them as the Prop 8 campaign may do a lot to expose previously secretive LDS political involvement and ultimately weaken their political influence now that people are on to them and watching them more closely.

      The leaked documents show that they are concerned about the public perception of their church, but their involvement in this election has cast the denomination in a much more negative light than they were in before.

      For one thing, it will have a seriously negative effect nationally on Romney's presidential chances, which were pretty good before this happened.  I don't even think Mittens has realized yet how mad this is for him.  But now there is no way Romney can pass himself off as a moderate and attract independent voters.  Romney's 2012 hopes being knocked down a peg is a good thing.  I ask everyone to look at the big picture.

      I know people are very hurt and upset now, but this temporary setback may turn out to have very positive consequences in terms of marginalizing the political influence of the LDS in the future.  I honestly believe this short-lived "victory" for the LDS will come back to haunt them.  I predict it will backfire on them in a way that will make them wish they had never gotten involved with Prop H8.

      And in the long run (maybe sooner than we think) progressive voices will win, but the stain on the political reputation of the Mormon church will remain.

      Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
      We inaugurate President Barack Obama in 73 days!

      by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:29:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  ... and a very valuable two cents it is...! (18+ / 0-)

    Gay rights are civil rights .. and progressives (and frankly, all citizens), regardless of orientation, should be spreading that message very clearly to every American.

  •  If all you are reading is nonsense... (9+ / 0-)

    ...then you are being too selective in your reading.  There have been several very positive diaries about what we should be doing to move forward.

    This diary seems to be a step away from that progress.

  •  $20M from Mormons for Prop 8, per Andrew Sullivan (7+ / 0-)

    Justice, mercy, tolerance, hope, love, grace, and redemption are all Judeo-Christian values.

    by Benintn on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:49:12 AM PST

  •  Did Voters Take For Granted Prop 8 Would Fail??? (13+ / 0-)

    I think that most voters, myself included took for granted that Californians would not vote for Prop 8. I did not give any money to defeat Prop 8.  I am not from California, but from Florida, and voted no on Prop 2, but always knew that I was in the minority here in Florida.  California was different.  This was the state that to me is the most open minded and progressive.  I will gladly give money for a redo to get rid of Prop 8.  I hope that progressive voters in California don't give up.

  •  No one should be afforded the opportunity to VOTE (21+ / 0-)

    on the civil rights of anyone else.  Prop 8 was preposterous on its very face, and I got the sneaky feeling that the ACLU will crush it.

    Life is like a screenplay. Tell the truth for 110 straight, and I like your chances.

    by BA BarackUS on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:56:55 AM PST

  •  I agree with the ethos here, and would add only-- (12+ / 0-)

    Not "enough of the anger," but time to direct the anger productively.

    We won't get over this kind of anger so easily, and we shouldn't.  It's one thing never to have had marriage rights; it's another to have had them, briefly (to have imagined my society saw me as equal) and then to have them revoked.  

    http://www.amazon.com/Underwater-Lengths-Single-Benjamin-Grossberg/dp/0912592583

    by claytonben on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:58:21 AM PST

  •  We need to keep fighting for the day (5+ / 0-)

    where we can inaugurate our first homosexual president... until then, its not good enough

    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it... unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." -The Buddha

    by Brian A on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:00:54 PM PST

  •  Let's also bring in the Mormons who were against (6+ / 0-)

    Prop 8. There are a few. We can't alienate people by their religion or race. Or we'll lose whole chunks of the progressive coalition like how the Republicans lost blacks and hispanics. It can go the other way as well.

      •  Hostility will do the job... (17+ / 0-)

        I live in a suburb with 2 big Mormon churches in SoCal. I have several friends who are devout Mormons and more secular Mormons who voted against Prop 8.
        Steve Young, NFL star and the great-great-great grandson of Brigham Young opposed prop 8. And not just any opposition but $37,000 in donation to the cause. The Proposition has exposed a lot of bigotry among the Mormon leadership, but it has also shown how many tolerant, decent, secular Mormons there are as well.

        An email to Dan Savage by a practicing Mormon:
        Dan received and that he has shared:

         

         I am a straight, married man, and I am a practicing Mormon.  I am disgusted with my church's efforts to pass proposition 8.  Not only do we have more important things to devote our energy and money towards--last time I checked, people were still starving, suffering from disease, neglect and abuse, and all other kinds of ills that could be helped with some good Christian sentiment--but I am horrified at the idea of painting loving, stable families like yours as something shameful, hurtful to children, or worse.

           I am both biracial myself and in an interracial marriage, and I'm all too familiar with the kinds of stupid rhetoric about "our kind of love" that was acceptable, within the past 50 years and even within my lifetime. I look forward to the day when all of us--gay/straight, religious/non-religious, etc.--will shudder at the thought that it was once acceptable to deny honest, loving people the right to marry and commit to each other. We're still not quite there even when it comes to interracial relationships, but we're close to having a biracial man in the White House (hopefully), and maybe within our lifetimes we'll see an (openly) LGBT president. I wish I could do more, but for now $25 is all I can spare for No on 8; but every cent counts, right?

        300 Mormon protesters  by the Mormons Against Prop 8 group in Salt Lake City

        •  Thanks for this. (2+ / 0-)

          I don't read Dan Savage enough. But doesn't the spirit of that letter clue you in that something has fundamentally CHANGED in American society in the past few years?

          Good stuff. :)

          •  and we should also not forget the power (8+ / 0-)

            of fear and misinformation. Obama beat fox news. But fear and misinformation won in california, because the no on 8 people were not aggressive enough from the beginning and ran a top-down disorganized campaign. the Yes on 8 ran a campaign like Obama, and people made voters think that people would be seeing gay marriage in their schools and whatnot. There were a lot of people who, if informed right, would have voted No on 8 for the basis of constitutional discrimination, but there was a major misinformed fear factor in their vote to yes on prop 8. So with all the fingerpointing, we should point a finger to the crap campaign that No on 8 ran and learn from our mistakes.

            •  I obviously don't live in CA but I trust what (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Matt Z, vcthree

              I've read on this sight about the bad organization of the No on Prop 8 peeps.

              What always kills me is that, legally, this should have absolutely no place, in California or any other state. This is the very essence of church VERSUS state. Wtf? How many times can I wave my hands in the air and shout "unconstitutional!", ya know?

              Also, what kills me is (regardless of what the Mormons would have us believe) gay marriage is already IN California schools. I'm sure there are plenty of gay teachers. But sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting, "LA LA LA LA!" as they walk past in the hallways isn't exactly going to make them go away.

              I guess as long as your namesake is alive and well, then fear and misinformation will be part of American society as a whole. Yuck.

            •  they lied about Massachusetts, which PIST me off (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Rush Hudson Limbaugh III

              I wish folks in MA had been able to do more to contradict that misinformation

              Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
              We inaugurate President Barack Obama in 73 days!

              by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:42:55 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  See? (6+ / 0-)

        We also need to make distinctions between the out-of-state national Mormon church, and the many Mormons in California, gay and str8, who opposed this initiative.

        Join the California Nurses Association and National Nurses Organizing Committee at www.GuaranteedHealthcare.org/blog

        by California Nurses Shum on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:17:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  couldn't agree more (8+ / 0-)

    we need to stick together...another wedge issue is going to sink us all.

    President-Elect Barack Obama - "Change is coming to America"

    by cmlane on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:09:53 PM PST

  •  Thank you. I feel like I'm getting beat up. (36+ / 0-)

    I'm one of those that donated money to No on Prop 8 and yet feel I'm being ostracized for being Black.

    "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in times of great moral crisis maintain their neutrality." - Dante

    by jazzence on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:10:34 PM PST

  •  yep. let's get to work. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    highacidity, 2questions

    if the remaining ballots don't come in, let's do everything we can to overturn this by 2010. at the ballot box, or through the courts. no majority should be able to vote to take away a minority's choice.

    let's get to 60 in the senate!

    by danthrax on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:10:42 PM PST

  •  It's not about blaming (18+ / 0-)

    but it is about examining.

    Homophobia is a real problem in minority communities, especially African American communities. You're certainly right that the No on 8 campaign failed in many ways; but we should also use this as, to borrow words from Pam Spaulding, a wake-up call to the LGBT community about race.

    Hard, uncomfortable discussions are a part of progress, and some of those hard, uncomfortable discussions in this case need to involve clear-headed examination of how to deal with the very real problem of homophobia in the African American community.

    And of course we need to deal with the problem in every community, but the fact remains that the numbers show it's a larger problem in the African American community.

    The people who suffer the most from this problem not being addressed? African American gays and lesbians.

  •  Don't let the bad stuff get you down (4+ / 0-)

    We focused on the big picture to win the election and the Mormon church slipped Prop 8 through while we were distracted.

    We have won huge victories.

    Prop 8 is a nasty setback, but it doesn't diminish our successes.

    "It's the planet, stupid."

    by FishOutofWater on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:11:59 PM PST

    •  Although a miss is as good as a mile (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      highacidity

      for the time being, according to the SOS website which I checked just now, the margin was about 500,000 out of nearly 11 million votes cast. Less than 5%.

      And we have been effective in helping to overcome small margins like that over and over.

      Better organization, better sales job, and more on-going ground work by all of us - together that makes a winning campaign.

      Unfortunately, I don't see a win for our side stopping their odious campaigns any time soon.

      Like parental consent and other abortion-related initiatives, their side keeps coming back again and again despite repeated defeats.

      What we have to do is make sure the question is settled by a huge majority or a definitive court case.

  •  My postmortem (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lauramp, nycjoc, mellowwild

    ...Copied, pasted and slightly edited from a comment I left on another thread:

    "A couple of points I'll note, and this is based on anecdotal support so take it with the grain of salt, but...  The No on 8 campaign seemed somewhat complacent until just a couple of weeks before the election, at which point they fairly scrambled, but in a somewhat scatterbrained, disorganized way (the phone bank where I volunteered at the old Tower Records, for example, could have run much more smoothly); when you factor this in with early voting, it probably cost us dearly at the polls.  Also, among volunteers and protesters -- meaning this probably held true at the polls -- there was a serious dearth of gay men in their early-to-late 20s.  Too busy partying, bitches?  I mean, I saw quite a few teens, and many, many in the early 30s and up -- men and women, gay, straight, and trans.  But in between?  Too few."

  •  Thank you Slim (8+ / 0-)

    You're right.

    There is an incredible amount of shock and anger floating around the lgbt community of California right now.  

    Obviously we're going to win this in 2010, and this decision will be overturned.  It will be the next great civil rights campaign, and we'll do it right, from the grassroots up, with full community buy-in, the way we were supposed to this time.  The reality of the situation is many Prop. 8 opponents were more focused on electing Obama (such as myself--and I just got divorced by this hate crime of an initiative), and also the No on 8 campaign was handed over to lobbyist-types who underperformed.

    A small minority of folks I've talked to blame "the black community," but let's not be stupid here folks.  It is not on "them".  Prop. 8 was passed by a wicked combo of the out-of-state Mormon Church and the asleep-at-the-switch gay community and leaders, including whites blacks asians and latinos.  We will overturn this with smart outreach and involvement of the african american community, not hateful rants.

    Join the California Nurses Association and National Nurses Organizing Committee at www.GuaranteedHealthcare.org/blog

    by California Nurses Shum on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:13:03 PM PST

  •  I have been ashamed (8+ / 0-)

    and embarrassed at the naked racism I've seen in response to the passing of Prop 8.  It doesn't help things when African American and Hispanic religious leaders are going on NPR and talking about how they and their community helped to get out the vote for Prop 8, and how elemental they were in its passing.

    It doesn't matter in the long run.  This legislation will be repealed, overturned, and there will be absolute equality.  Barack Obama is living proof that the future is progress.  

    Blue House Diaries...because there's more to life than politics.

    by lapolitichick on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:18:30 PM PST

  •  thanks slim...keepin it real n/t (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nina, Panda, mellowwild

    Fired up and ready to Go!

    by reesespcs on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:20:51 PM PST

  •  Why aren't more people talking about the way (9+ / 0-)

    Prop 8 was written. That was huge and possibly the bigger reason it failed. IMHO.
    I read on election night, results that were conflicting also, and that was because a No vote was a vote FOR gay rights.
    I live in Ca. and just talking about it was always confusing in that you had to explain that fact - it's like who's on first....

    chance favors the prepared mind - pasteur

    by CaCowGal on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:22:21 PM PST

    •  I almost voted for a Colorado amendment (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lexicon, Nina, mellowwild

      banning affirmative action. It was worded in such a way that I actually thought I was voting FOR it.

      Thank God some Kossacks set me straight. :) I actually researched all amendments this year before I voted, and changed 3 more of my votes as a result. They are very, very sneaky with the wording these days.

  •  What I want to know (4+ / 0-)

    is where is the proposal to convene some kind of summit? At the leadership level or, hell, at the ground level? There are legal pathways to having this overturned and, having lived through Amendment 2 in CO, I have hope that it will be.

    But, in the meantime, it seems there should be a forceful movement toward having people from all angles come together to discuss a way forward. There was a LOT of discussion that needed to have happened and never did, but needs to now.

    That is not something I have heard proposed, and it's disappointing.

    I still root for the dreamer. I thank God for the dreamer ~ Mos Def, Lifetime

    by alkalinesky on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:23:30 PM PST

  •  Thanks Slim (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nina, Panda, mellowwild

    For all you did during the primaries and GE.

    "In Japan, American occupation forces quickly became 50,000 friends. In Iraq, they would quickly become 50,000 terrorist targets. " James Webb, Sep 02

    by ParaHammer on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:24:53 PM PST

    •  yes, and we are looking forward to your help (0+ / 0-)

      getting everyone aboard the freedom train.

      Dissecting Prop 8 is not as important as moving ahead with full solidarity for full equality for all Americans.

      The hyprocracy of the civil unions position must end.

      Seperate but equal can not be the banner flag of the Democratic leadership.

      Either everyone get civil unions from the government or everyone gets full marraige rigthts.

      That is the positive message that should unite us all moving foward.

      None of are free until all of  are free.

      We can not leave our loyal GLBT brother and sisters starving outside the banquet hall while the rest of us celebrate.  

      The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

      by HoundDog on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:28:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Old sales expression (4+ / 0-)

    There's an old sales expression that seems appropriate: If nobody is willing to buy your product, either you're a terrible salesperson or what you are trying to sell is crap. Of course it wasn't that "nobody" was willing to "buy" our product, but it was enough. And if we believe our "product" was not crap, the only reason left is the terrible sales job. Protesting the passage of the proposition seems kind of pointless to me; if anything they should be protesting the leadership of No on 8's bad sales job.

    A word after a word after a word is power. -- Margaret Atwood

    by tmo on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:26:09 PM PST

  •  An (4+ / 0-)

    opportunity was presented in California. Unfortunately, it wasn't seized upon. Yes, it is to bad that the LDS got involved and outspent the NO side. However, as the diarist says, the NO side was also out planned, and out thought.

    We know that these elections can be won. In fact, now we have a template. There will be a next time. Start planning now.

    Common Sense is not Common

    by RustyBrown on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:27:27 PM PST

    •  Where have these measures been defeated? (0+ / 0-)

      If there's an example of a successful defense against these groups, we need to know.

      Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

      by Fabian on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:40:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  See upthread, I think it was (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Fabian

        maybe Amendment 2 in Colorado. That died, thank God.

        But that was about 10-15 years ago. Obama changed the model of how to campaign these days, so I'd probably look to that instead.

        •  I wouldn't look to Obama. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Colorado is the Shiznit

          unless the GLBT community has a charismatic spokesperson who is a Media Darling.  

          The model should be the groups who push these measures to begin with.  They organize on a regional and national scale.  They fund raise on the same scale.  They have previous experience in similar, successful ventures.  They use the churches to help spread their messages.  They funnel all of those resources into a few states at a time who are working on a local and state scale.  

          That is a formidable foe with an effective, proven strategy.  Community outreach is a great idea, but it isn't a political strategy.  Political strategy would be to create a nation resource specifically to combat these measures.  Right now we are starting fresh, with almost nothing, over and over again.  They are refining their techniques, their advertising, their networking with every successful campaign.

          We are at a distinct disadvantage.

          Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

          by Fabian on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:23:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I was (0+ / 0-)

        speaking directly to the Obama model. Planning, discipline and execution.

        Common Sense is not Common

        by RustyBrown on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 02:00:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, here in Arizona in 2006 (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Fabian

        a measure like the one in Florida was defeated. It was successfully shown that the prop's passage would not only affect gay people but a lot of straight folks too as it eliminated recognition of anything remotely similar to marriage. This year they came back with a simpler version that did not explicitly ban recognition of other arrangements. I think the opposition this time should have argued the same way as before to keep the seeds of doubt sown in the minds of voters. But they didn't and it passed this time.

  •  Maher last night (8+ / 0-)

    As a GWM whose legal California marriage in August may or may not survive this turn of events, I was saddened to see the racist meme repeated on Bill Maher last night.  As I said on Shanikka's diary, it is past time for the GLBT community to get to work changing minds.  I'm trying with my own few homophobic relatives, but we've got to come out way beyond our own circle of family and friends and start addressing the widespread fear of change.  And I think it is more fear than hatred - which is why the campaigns are supposedly about the DEFENSE of marriage.  If the campaign were successfully identified as an assault on my marriage, we could start to make progress.

    •  You don't change minds on rights (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kck, demoKatz, carllaw

      You demand them the same way everyone else does.

      This is not some argument.  No case needs to be made.

      Rights are recognized.  Not rationalized.

      how can it be permissable/ to compromise my principle. -- robert palmer

      by Edgar08 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:15:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree that the tactic (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nycjoc

      of the "defense" of marriage is working against us big time.  People must be made to understand that giving gay people equal rights will not diminish their rights...they don't need to defend anything.

      Anecdotal story.  My aunt is a muslim convert. She believes that the Koran teaches that homosexuality is evil, sinful blah blah blah.  I did not try to change her mind on what the Koran says. That would only lead to a round and round religious discussion that would get us nowhere. Instead convinced her over time that the government had no business dictating what 2 consenting adults do. That gay people had the right to do all the same things as everyone else, and that it was God's job to decide what was sin and punish those he decided were sinners, not hers, not the government's...that it is fair and moral to treat everyone fairly and equally on this earth.  She now agrees. (some background...these discussions with my aunt started a little while ago over a story about a gay couple wanting to adopt a child)

      My point in that story is that I didn't need to convert her to my way of thinking - that there's nothing wrong with being gay - just that she had no business denying anyone the right to be as the are.  She can continue to feel safe in her chosen faith and yet the gay community won't need to worry about her standing in their way.

      I don't think those who voted yes on prop 8 need to be converted, they just need to be convinced to stand aside.

      Just my 2cents.

  •  Majority whites DID NOT support Prop 8 (10+ / 0-)

    Whites and Asians were against, Hispanics split.

    •  don't tell me (0+ / 0-)

      you were expecting to read anything truthful in a diary by IBS?

    •  ? ? ? (0+ / 0-)

      I don't understand this comment.

      Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
      We inaugurate President Barack Obama in 73 days!

      by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:47:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  In the diary he said (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        heineken1717, Shane Hensinger

        where is the anger at the majority of whites who supported Prop 8. A majority of whites did not support it. They voted it down. Just a fact.

        When I had no roof / I made audacity my roof. --Robert Pinsky

        by Crestingwave on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 02:28:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  all I'm saying is this (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lexicon, lazybum, mellowwild

          there are a lot of groups in this exit poll that apparently voted for Prop 8.

          white men.
          latino men.
          latino women.
          latinos in general
          people over 30
          people who make less than $100,000 a year
          people who didn't go to college

          etc.

          but I don't see diaries decrying those groups.

          the Latino vote is a larger percentage of the California electorate than the black vote.  but I haven't seen any diaries pointing fingers at that community.

          LBNL, and I know I'm out on a limb here, this exit poll data shows a 49-51 split or the white vote.  that doesn't mean the split was actually 49-51.  perhaps some people who voted for it did not want to admit it.  we have to be careful about words like "fact" when we talk about exit polling. exit polls have the same margin of error as other polls.

          bottom line: there are so many more whites than blacks or latinos that it does not seem mathematically possible that Prop 8 could be passed without a majority of the white vote.  I know I don;t have any proof, but I found shanikka's diary convincing, and I guess that is not a popular view today.

          Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
          We inaugurate President Barack Obama in 73 days!

          by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 03:37:34 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  IBS lied (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        brian wade, Shane Hensinger

        in this diary, claiming a majority of whites supported Prop 8.

  •  I love cheerleading (12+ / 0-)

    But this diary needs a little more "plan."

    You could start with links to protests that have been publicized on a lot of good diaries lately.

    http://www.jointheimpact.com/

    The Courage Campaign is also fundraising and trying to publicize their pledge.

    http://www.couragecampaign.org/...

    Lambda Legal needs donations to continue their work.

    https://secure.ga3.org/...

    So does NCLR:

    http://www.nclrights.org/...

    And ACLU:

    http://action.aclu.org/...

    Lots of good action diaries have fallen off the rolls, they need to be hyped.

  •  Bill Maher... (16+ / 0-)

    Said it best... and he said something to the effect of... "the unspoken elephant in the room is Religion... and African American people love themselves some Jesus...and the Jewish book of fairy tales doesn't like it when people 'do it' the naughty place..."  Between the Mormons and other christian inspired community organizing... religious beliefs are responsible for the failure of prop 8

  •  We were simply outplanned. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lexicon, Nina, Sychotic1, Fabian, mellowwild

    See this diary for the history of the Mormons' activities and planning...

    Prop 8: DEVASTATING internal memo from the LDS Church

    (Don't know how to link -- sorry.)

    It was dated 11/3, I believe.

    Kick apart the structures.

    by ceebee7 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:35:01 PM PST

  •  Yes we can! (7+ / 0-)

    My view is that the perception of gays is so warped in this country that people are still afraid of them.

    Barack Obama had to demonstrate how "normal" he was.  He had to demonstrate that he loved his family, took walks in the park with his kids, engaged in all the activities and had the same concerns that we all have. That he was not a foul-mouthed, angry rapper or the drug dealer of the stereotype.

    In this country, gays and lesbians have not demonstrated that.  For one thing, too many of them remain closeted.  The Pride parades give America one view of gayness - extreme, and strange, and in-your-face, and DIFFERENT.  There's nothing wrong with being colorful and different, but it will not sell gay marriage.

    Now we need every "average" gay person who is in the closet to get out and demonstrate that they are part of mainstream America.

    Get out and get up and demonstrate that you love your country, love your family, go to work, take out the garbage and do the dishes and laundry, take your children trick-or-treating, have normal relationships with your neighbors - in short, be yourselves, out of the closet.

    That would go a long way toward equal rights for gays.  Average people would realize that they know and love gay people.  Personal knowledge is very powerful.  It would counter the fearmongering.

    "The other folks are voting!" Rep. Chambliss (R-GA)

    by keeplaughing on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:37:43 PM PST

  •  I think the "it is the blacks' fault" (9+ / 0-)

    meme has pretty much already stuck.  I heard Jon Steward, Rachel Maddow & Bill Maher all reaffirm this rumor.  

    It's not easy being a Floridian: PS I'm a lawYER now; no longer a lawSTUDENT.

    by lawstudent922 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:39:13 PM PST

  •  Get churches out of the marriage business. (14+ / 0-)

    At the very least, all marriages should be civil unions, as marriage licenses are issued by the county in which you live.

    Why do churches have any involvement anyway? I was never married in a church, and my marriage was just as legal as any fancy cathedral service.

    It's a LEGAL status -- why is religion allowed to be involved at all?

    Yet another reason we need to clarify the separation of church and state. Strong progressives need to get behind this, no matter what your religious beliefs or lack thereof.

    "It always seems impossible until it's done." - Nelson Mandela

    by Brooke In Seattle on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:41:15 PM PST

    •  Bingo (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BachFan

      People are very emotionally invested in their faith of choice.

      Take away the religion, take away the emotional pull that the right uses to swing people to vote against gay rights.

    •  You mean (0+ / 0-)

      Get states out of the marriage business.

      Marriage is a sacrament or whatever else any other religion wants to call it.

      Point is let churches own the word marriage.  Let states own the word Civil Union.

      how can it be permissable/ to compromise my principle. -- robert palmer

      by Edgar08 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:12:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No (0+ / 0-)

        Marriage is not a sacrament except in the Catholic Church. It is everywhere and anywhen a primarily legal contract. Even in the United States, though we cloak that by allowing religious figures to act as state agents in this one sphere. But try convincing the state you're married (no matter how many religious figures prayed over you and your beloved) if you don't first get a state-issued marriage license.

    •  Churches aren't in the civil marriage business (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ian S, BachFan

      They're in the religious marriage business, which is exactly where they should be.

      The problem -- and likely part of the reason Prop 8 passed -- is that many people still fail to recognize that distinction. Instead of trying to push churches out of the marriage business, we should emphasize their legitimate place within it. If a church refuses to perform marriages between same-sex couples, that's its right and government has no business interfering in that decision. By the same token, churches have no business imposing their religious prejudices on the civil institution of marriages.  

      The church has a duty to act in accord with the will of God.  The state has a duty to act in accord with the principles of justice and equal right. In resolving the conflicts that arise between them, we could do worse than to follow the guideline put forth 2,000 years ago: Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's.

    •  Never going to happen. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BachFan

      I'm in favor of all civil unions/domestic partnerships being able to be recognized by the state and federal governments and all associated rights and benefits afforded.

      I think individual religions can then decided who can be "married" and when and why and so on.  Leave it to the churches.

      But civil benefits go with the civil union, which should be open to all couples.

  •  I'm ready to get busy on this. (3+ / 0-)

    What should we do?

    •  now that's a lot more constructive than all (0+ / 0-)

      this finger pointing. From the very little i have heard and read i believe it is going back to the courts, partly because the Proposition itself may not be legal or constitutional. The original Supreme Court plaintiffs gave an interview to the BBC World Service on Thursday stating that it was a constitutional matter of civil rights and was going back to the courts.

      So, my advice would be to try and follow that line of analysis and action and see what activism is required.  You cannot legislate against homphobia but you can certainly legislate equal rights.

      Personally I believe the entire matter of blanket standards of civil rights in terms of EQUALITY for all is in order and I would would work for a constitutional amendment including gay rights and equal rights for women, and any other group of so-called minorities!.

  •  Black People Voted For It (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    homogenius, Neglected Duty

    Let me be clear here.  It is not African-Americans fault that this legislation was passed and not defeated.  Read this information of the break down here and get the statistical facts.

    Those stats you cite do show all kinds of differently sliced demographics voting for Prop 8 more than voting against it. But most of those demos that voted for it did so by 51, 52, 54 or maybe even 59 or 61%. Black voters made up 10% of the turnout, and voted 70:30% for Prop 8. Black women were 6% of turnout, and voted 75:25% for Prop 8. Those rations for Prop 8 were exceeded only by Republicans (29% of turnout; 82:18% for Prop 8) and by Conservatives (30% of turnout; 85:15% for Prop 8).

    Those stats you cite show unequivocally that Black people, especially Black women, voted for Prop 8. Of course more White people voted for Prop 8 than Black people did, even if not as large a fraction of their demographic. But it is clear that Black people were more against gay marriage than any other demographic except Republicans and Conservatives.

    We're disappointed in those stats about Black people more than about Republicans and Conservatives because we expect better. That's what disappointment is: expectations minus performance. Especially since those same people all stood and chose a Black man to be president, we expected Black people to stand not just for the man, not just for someone who looked like them, not just for a fellow party member, but for universal respect and against bigotry. Lots of people disappointed us in California on that score, but Black people were the most disappointing of any way of looking at people.

    Maybe those stats aren't correct. The "10% of turnout" number seems suspect, as Black people are only 6% of Californians but are counted as 10% of Tuesday's turnout. But according to the stats you cite, Black people did indeed vote for Prop 8. Since Prop 8 passed by under 500,000 votes out of 10 million cast, if Black people cast 1 million of those votes, and 70% of them voted for it, that's 700,000 votes, which makes the difference. If Black people hadn't voted at all (which of course I wouldn't want, but this is a statistical comparison of their effect or not), the measure would still have passed, but by only 90,000 votes. If Black people had reversed their voted, 70:30 against instead of for, the measure would have failed.

    So while it's not quite correct to say "Prop 8 passing was Black people's fault", it's more correct than incorrect. And even if the measure had failed, the 70:30% choice of homophobia, exceeding every other demographic except Republicans and Conservatives, means that Black Californians who voted Tuesday have a special measure of guilt for depriving their fellow Californians of their basic equality under law.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:43:11 PM PST

    •  I find your entire comment to offensive and (9+ / 0-)

      disrectful, but the following portion most of all.  I AM a black woman who voted against the proposition - and even with a gay sister, many gay friends who are married here in California... I didn't even know about this proposition until very late in the election cycle.  Thanks to some very politically active friends, they informed me on what it was about so that I could make an informed decision and vote.  

      We're disappointed in those stats about Black people more than about Republicans and Conservatives because we expect better. That's what disappointment is: expectations minus performance. Especially since those same people all stood and chose a Black man to be president, we expected Black people to stand not just for the man, not just for someone who looked like them, not just for a fellow party member, but for universal respect and against bigotry. Lots of people disappointed us in California on that score, but Black people were the most disappointing of any way of looking at people.

      Comments like this are going to anger the 'wrong' group of people... I'm saddened by all of this, but with all the insistence on blaming blacks - I'm feeling more angry.  You cannot know the extent of individual experiences within a group of people... and to make blanket statements as you've done, is tending to turn me off.  

      •  Why Are You Angry at Me? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        homogenius, Neglected Duty, abrauer

        Tell me how quoting the fact that 70% of Black people, and 75% of Black women voted for Prop 8 is me being offensive to you.

        You might be angry, but the stats show that you were in the small minority voting against it. Why doesn't the turnout of the majority of people in your demographic offend you more than hearing the report of it?

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:29:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am not angry at you personally (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Nina, physic, mellowwild

          I'm angry at the blaming of an entire group of people, without considering the individuals within the group.  No one likes to be boxed in with stereotypes and blacks and homosexuals are all too familiar with the consequences of stereotypes.  That is what I am angry about.  

          But more than anything, it saddens me because of the division it's causing or the potential for division.  It saddens me to think that any of those I know as friends and family who are gay could feel this way (or be influenced by rhetoric)... that it is the fault of blacks.

          Also, I don't think the CNN poll is credible, for many reasons that have already been commented on by other posters.  Mostly though, I don't give CNN much credibly on news anymore, because of what I've read here.

          This I think is a better poll, by a non-partisan group.  Note this breakdown on page 5 of 14 in their document:  

          Total Statewide
          Race/Ethnicity        
          (.67) White non-Hispanic: Yes=44% No=50% Undecided=6%
          (.19) Latino:                    Yes=46% No=48% Undecided=6%
          (.06) African-American*:  Yes=49% No=43% Undecided=8%
          (.08) Asian/other*:          Yes=41% No=51% Undecided=8%

          *small sample size.

          And this is an important comment on page 2 of the document:

          Prop. 8 trailed in The Field Poll’s initial measurement in July by nine points (51% No to 42% Yes) taken shortly after it qualified for the ballot.
          The No-side advantage increased to fourteen points (52% to 38%) in September, when voters were asked to react to its original ballot description, which referred to the measure as the "Limit on Marriage" initiative. However, following the state Supreme Court’s ruling that the state’s existing same-sex marriage ban was unconstitutional, thereby making it legal for same-sex couples to marry in California, state Attorney General Jerry Brown changed Prop. 8’s official ballot title to the "Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry" initiative. When voters were read this amended description in September, the No-side lead grew to seventeen points (55% No vs. 38% Yes).
          Now, after more than a month of intensive campaigning on both sides, the initiative trails by just five points, 49% No vs. 44% Yes, with 7% undecided. Yes-side support has increased six points, and those opposed declining six points over the past month.

          •  Feelings and Reason (0+ / 0-)

            I'm confused by your saying you're not mad at me personally, but mad at the group of people finding these statistics to show that Black Californians voted overwhelmingly for Prop 8. Because you say what makes you mad is judging an entire group, rather than the people in it.

            Your whole premise seems like you're really mainly mad that Prop 8 passed, and anyone who mentions that Black Californias clearly voted for it becomes a target of your anger, because you identify both with Black Californians and with gay Californians (your family and friends). The poll you prefer, the Field poll, was conducted almost a week before the election, finding Prop 8 failing by 49:44%. That poll is clearly wrong, at least as measured by the official election, which passed Prop 8 by 52:48%. That early poll might make you feel better, but the fact is that the proposition passed, and until truly debunked the CNN exit poll has no good reason to be found false.

            Like I said, the CNN numbers might be wrong. If so, I'd welcome that news. Until it is proven wrong, I will accept it as at least approximately correct, which is how I treat all major news organizations. The 70:30% ratio of Black Californians voting for Prop 8 is so clear that CNN would have to be wildly incorrect, not approximately incorrect.

            Don't be mad at me. I'm being rational, and only refusing to be tempted into irrational conclusions that might make me feel better - like the one in this diary that I found substantial reason to find incorrect. I explicitly said that "Blacks' fault" neither correct nor incorrect - but it is more correct than incorrect, as I explained, in ways that are relevant to measuring opinion of Black Californians. If the next steps to get universal rights in California are to succeed, we have to be honest about what we're up against. As I detailed, if Black Californians had voted in reverse against Prop 8, the measure would have failed. And indeed, if Black Californians had voted 70:30 against it, more than any other demographic (except probably gay people, whose results are not reported), then Black Californians would have gotten, and deserved, a real major share of the credit. If we're going to be honest, and move forward on enlightenment, equality, and protecting each other's rights, we have to face those facts in order to change them.

            I hope we can.

            "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

            by DocGonzo on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 03:58:37 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Maybe that field poll is useful... (0+ / 0-)

              as a point of comparison?  49+44= 93% in the field poll a week prior to the election.  If the field poll was relatively accurate, then, clearly, it was undecided voters who swung the vote in the other direction at the last minute.  How can this help us understand why those voters decided as they did?

              Thank you, Howard Dean

              by dharmafarmer on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:08:59 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  I am willing to believe your (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lexicon, DocGonzo, mellowwild

              intentions are 'good' and honest - but throughout this blog I have not been convinced of that from many who clearly are blaming blacks.  But if we are to reach that point of enlightenment and unity, all have to be willing to consider others perspective.

              Maybe I was not clear in my posts - I'm most angry about the action of blaming.  I don't think blaming is helpful in understanding why there are certain trends in different groups of people and it in fact, harms the ability to bringing about change.  

              I have no disagreement that blacks probably voted more for the passage of Proposition 8; I just do not believe the poll from CNN which gave the percentage of 70:30%.  It doesn't make sense to me and does not agree with my personal experiences of blacks I know.  My point in posting the alternate poll by The Field was to give a different perspective.  What was the difference in polling that caused the percentages in the black community to change so drastically from a week before voting?  Answering that question may provide some information on the lack of validity of the CNN poll.

              The Field poll also provides some evidence of the assumption that the proposition would not pass and perhaps explains limited outreach to targeted communities.  

              But again, I'm primarily dismayed at the blaming and lack of critical thought to understand why the overall vote of the black community was in favor of Proposition 8.  Some of it could have to do with a lack of outreach and education on the issue and what it meant, as was in my case.  There are some very strong historical aspects of blacks - going as far back as slavery that may still have an effect on ideas of masculinity of black males within the black community.  And of course, one must also consider the disproportionate number of black males who spend a considerable amount of time in jails and prisons and the discussion of what happens to black males while incarcerated that further effects ideas of masculinity in the black community.

              Ideas and norms within a culture are not easy to change - but as you, I hope we can change them.  It's going to take some time, effort and understanding...blaming sets that change back by adding the step of overcoming more division.

        •  Identity politics (6+ / 0-)

          Identity politics is offensive.

          you were in the small minority

          And

          the majority of people in your demographic offend

          That is offensive. And how do you know if those exit polls were even right? I can't stand exit polls broke down by race and religion.

          Of course pitting one side against the other is always good for a cause you are fighting for, right?

          This type of stuff makes me want to NOT support whatever side you are on.

          And I would feel the same way if Obama lost and people started blaming Whites or Hispanics.

          It is NOT the way to further whatever cause you are trying to further. And this is one white male who can't stand this type of bullshit.

          McCain: US economic woes 'psychological'

          by DAVE DIAL on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 03:08:09 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not Identity Politics (0+ / 0-)

            What we are discussing here is not "identity politics". We are talking about Black people voting for or against gay marriage. Which has no "identity" between the two groups.

            But we are indeed talking about the voting behavior by a group of people, Black people, whose history is undeniably one shaped by laws and votes exactly like Prop 8. In fact, one of the more powerful arguments against Prop 8 is that it treats gay people the way that the law used to treat Black people. The argument that Black people should know better is perfectly legitimate.

            The quotes from my post that you quoted are not identity politics. The poster to whom I was replying cited their personal experience, and I cited their demographic's behavior to them. That is perfectly legitimate. You don't even bother saying why what I said is offensive - you just say it is. Even though you're replying to my post titled "Why Are You Angry At Me?"

            Even further, I am an unequivocal opponent of Prop 8. So your logic goes even worse when you decide to oppose my position, because then you'd support Prop 8.

            The bullshit is entirely in your post. You're ranting without logic. You're attacking me without being right, or bothering to explain why. If I expected better of random people posting at me online, I'd be disappointed.

            "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

            by DocGonzo on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 03:44:55 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I see (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Steviey99, mellowwild

              So a definition that fits perfectly to what you are trying to do doesn't fit?

              You are promoting identity politics through your posts, there is no doubt.

              And all this from some exit poll that you don't really know if is correct or not.

              I'm sorry to say that it's not me that is "ranting without logic", that award goes to you.

              Even if the exit polls were correct, if you took out the Black vote out totally(both for and against) the measure still passes. Then you could start going after the Hispanics that voted for the Bill.

              If we really want to break down this all to "identity politics", White women were the only group to vote against this measure.

              In any case, I hate this type of stuff. Better to make an argument and try to get the message out than cast blame on groups of Peoples based on their race, religion or ethnic origin.

              McCain: US economic woes 'psychological'

              by DAVE DIAL on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:45:32 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're Blind (0+ / 0-)

                Identity politics means that people are counted on to vote only for people like themselves, and never for people they think are unlike themselves. We're talking about Black people voting for or against gay marriage. That is not "identity politics". No matter how many times you chant that it is, it still is not.

                I said it's not "Black people's fault". I simply debunked the diary's statement that the stats don't support assigning blame to Black people. Because the stats show that there is substantial blame in that demographic; more blame in that one than in any other other than Republicans or Conservatives. 70:30% for bigotry, by people damaged daily their whole lives, for centuries, by bigotry, even as they join a majority of Americans stepping across the watershed away from that injustice for people in their demographic, is a significant act by a significant group of people. And no spin changes that. Certainly not yours, which consists of throwing around terms you clearly don't understand.

                But hey, as long as you're going to just make up words in a row, regardless of what they mean, why not keep it up?

                "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

                by DocGonzo on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 06:57:20 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You're a moron (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Steviey99

                  And I guess no matter how civil I try to be, you being an asshole is going shine through.

                  McCain: US economic woes 'psychological'

                  by DAVE DIAL on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:24:25 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You're a Fool (0+ / 0-)

                    If you would even bother to explain even once how my post is "identity politics", we would indeed be having a civil debate. But instead, you're just insisting on being wrong over and again. No facts. No logic. Just your insistence on being wrong. While I have taken the time, several times, to explain how you are wrong.

                    I have proven my point over and again. You have proven nothing except that you are a fool. And never so clearly as in that last post of yours, in which you commit to being a fool forever.

                    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

                    by DocGonzo on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 06:37:25 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Terms he don't understand? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  DAVE DIAL

                  Listen "Doc", it seems that you are having a hard time grasping simple concepts and definitions.

                  If you are going to debate this any further, methinks you should at least change your screen name to something more appropriate.

                  •  Wrong (0+ / 0-)

                    No, I have cited and explained "identity politics" twice in this thread, showing how it's not what is at work here. They have not explained at all how it's identity politics, just claimed over and over that it is. That makes it clear that they don't understand. And that they don't understand how to have a debate, either. Just asserting your wrong point over and again doesn't mean anything except that you're wrong.

                    And the same now goes for you, because you're doing nothing but what they're doing. Which is being wrong.

                    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

                    by DocGonzo on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 06:35:31 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Wow (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DAVE DIAL

              You don't make any sense whatsoever.

              None at all.

      •  EVERYONE (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nycjoc

        Who voted for it should be judged the same regardless of race or ethnicity.

        Or is my statement a question?

        how can it be permissable/ to compromise my principle. -- robert palmer

        by Edgar08 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:33:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Civil rights need public suppor (0+ / 0-)

    You're going to have to get over your squeamishness about "bashing" other progressives about not supporting liberal causes if you want to move this forward. Now is EXACTLY the time to point fingers. I'm sorry that you don't like the direction in which those fingers were pointing. The best argument for gay marriage that we have is the precedent of interracial marriage being forbidden and then accepted, and that argument falls apart when people realize that black Americans do not support it. If anybody has a vested interest in supporting civil marriage rights, it should be the people who benefited the most from existing civil rights laws. Until you can make your case to them, you're not going to win over the nation. You can try to make this a right wing issue, but it's not - it's the left you have to win over right now.

    •  You seem to equate "making our case" (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lexicon, left turn, drache, mellowwild

      with "bashing" and "finger pointing."
      Or did I misread you?
      In any case, I disagree with what I think you said. We are more likely to persuade fellow progressives if we speak to them respectfully - "you've been misinformed" is generally a more successful approach than "you betrayed us!!!"

      When civilizations clash, barbarism wins.

      by Allogenes on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 03:21:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I put "bashing" in quotes (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Allogenes

        But in order to point something out to somebody, you have to identify them. That's "finger pointing". We know that certain groups are opposed to gay marriage. Some of these groups, like conservatives and Catholics, are probably not persuadable. That means that if you want to change things you have to convince as many progressives as possible. They aren't simply neutral on gay marriage. They diapprove of it. They are not "misinformed". They simply don't think that gay people should be allowed to get married. You can start by pointing out to them that they are betraying the heritage of civil rights they supposedly support. Or you can rail against the conservatives who have no reason to support gay marriage at all.

        •  OK, we don't disagree by much; (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mellowwild

          I'd still make the tone one of explanation rather than accusation though. A lot of people simply don't see same-sex marriage as a civil rights issue, and it needs to be explained to them why it is.
          Especially the older folk, who still have a pre-sixties notion of sexuality and of what marriage is.
          They can be taught, and in any case the younger generation will outvote them soon enough.

          When civilizations clash, barbarism wins.

          by Allogenes on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 05:43:34 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Imagine...It was a white man who freed the slaves (7+ / 0-)

    and it could be a black man who might give gays their rights. What an amazing history we have had.
    I agree with you that it was the fault of the No on 8 folks who lost the campaign. Had they run it like Obama ran his campaign, Prop 8 would never have passed.
    I think there are possibly many who voted Yes on 8 due to the propaganda. They are the kind of person who would have voted against it, except that they thought gay marriage was going to be taught in school, or that kids would be forced to go to gay weddings.
    Of course, being the diverse, fairly liberal state that California is, I don' think the No on 8 folks ever thought they would lose. And by the time they did, it was too late.
    But I also think about how far the movement has come. it was back in Clinton's time that Don't Ask Don't Tell cam into being. That measure was surely not that great, but it was a tiny step forward. But back then, any talk of gays marrying would have been met with laughter from many and great furor from the right. Really folks, it terms of social progress, it wasn't that long ago. Now we have at least two states where you can legally marry and more that have said they will recognize those marriages.
    We're not there yet. But the movement in California will, I have no doubt, end up on the right side, and that other states will, along the way, join them.
    Civil rights didn't happen over night. And neither will the passage of gay rights. it's a long haul, but we'll win it in the end.

    Electing conservatives is like hiring a carpenter who thinks hammers are evil.

    by MA Liberal on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:47:08 PM PST

  •  No. We don't "commend" Mormon church, homophobes. (7+ / 0-)

    "We must commend the outside influences of the LDS (Mormons) for getting their message across..."

    What the Mormon Church did was contemptible not "commendable".

    And yes, those who voted for Proposition 8 also get a dope slap.

    One of the interesting side effects of Obama's election is that minorities don't get a pass when they turn around and support taking away the rights of other minorities.  Excuses such as "it wasn't sold right" are completely lame. Everyone knew what it was about. People who voted for it allowed their prejudice to rule, no different than if they voted against civil rights legislation 50 years ago.

    •  Absolutely right (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      homogenius

      I'm pissed and have every reason to be.  Asking us to admire the Mormons who teamed up with the deep-bucket Catholics because their ground game was better leaves me cold.  If the diarist is cheesed to see "a bunch of nonsense about Proposition 8", I kindly invite him/her to ignore them.  As for me, I plan to continue screaming at this injustice right here on Daily Kos.  Because I can.

      respice adspice prospice

      by Steven Payne on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:02:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  That line was a snark, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Elise

      and it was meant to rile you up.  Meaning, they did what needed to be done to get this amendment passed, and we did not do enough to get it defeated.

      •  Ex post facto. (0+ / 0-)

        "Meaning, they did what needed to be done to get this amendment passed"

        For which you commended them with no sign of sarcasm for their efficiency as you do AGAIN now in walking back your comment.

        As far as your stating "we did not do enough", I don't buy that either. The issue and the choice was clear enough.  People who voted for it were voting their prejudice against gays.  They don't get a pass because the saw more Mormon Church commercials, because they are black, Latino or whatever.

        Flip side, supporters of equal rights for gays going after blacks and Latinos individually because a majority of blacks and Latino voted against equal rights is bogus. They should consider that a minority of white voters voted for Obama.

        •  I am not walking back the comment. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Elise

          They took advantage of the situation and saturated money, ground troops, and everything else to defeat this amendment.  By the time the "no side" got wind of what was really happening it was too late, as in money, advertising, etc.  They are commended and it should be a sign for everyone of us to never "assume" that this amendment would be defeated because it is in California.

          •  No they are not "commended" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Steveningen

            You really need to change your wording. There is absolutely nothing commendable about Mormon Church's attack on equal rights.

            Perhaps you mean effective.

            Even then, I think folks give them too much credit.  Everyone who voted for/against ban on gay marriage knew what it was about.

            Those who voted for it voted their prejudices and I doubt Mormon Church commercials had much to do with it. Idea that people just vote for whichever issue has the most advertising is bogus.

      •  I appreciate the argument (0+ / 0-)

        You achieved your goal.  It riled me.  You'll have to forgive my sensitivity to snark.  I've recently been punched in the heart.  

        respice adspice prospice

        by Steven Payne on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:44:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  too bad the minorities who DID vote for this (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vcthree

    don't have the full story on the Mormons either.
    Such great examples of Christian thought and action.

    If only Americans had agonized over every detail of the candidate's history when deciding to vote for GWB as they did with Barack Obama.

    by lisastar on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:50:01 PM PST

  •  Shows that an effective campaign of fear can work (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lexicon, sephius1

    The Yes on 8 ads were scary to many, it would seem.  A ton of money was thrown at it.

    But guess what?  The best assessment is that the measure is not Constitutional.  It does not and will not matter that a large amount of money was wasted on a flawed Proposition.  

    So calm down.  It does not matter.

    Also, all the votes have not yet been counted, so just.  Wait.

  •  i don't see a link to shanikka's diary (8+ / 0-)

    this diary convinced me that black voters should not be scapegoated for this important setback.

    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
    We inaugurate President Barack Obama in 73 days!

    by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 12:53:57 PM PST

    •  it's not scapegoating (3+ / 0-)

      it's figuring out how to solve the problem. Ignoring the rampant homophobia in the Black community (pretending it doesn't exist it is exactly what snhanika and IBS are advocating) is a ticket to never getting equal rights for gays. All races besides blacks were roughly 50-50. Blacks were 70-30. You have blinders on if you don't think that makes a difference.  Eliminate homophobia in the black community, then all races will be roughly 50-50, and we have a chance of saying no on a Prop 8.  Ignore the homophobia in the black community, per request of shanika and IBS, we'll keep the 70-30 in the black community, and we'll never say no to a Prop 8.

      Sure, it's possible that if you take the black vote out of the equation, Prop 8 still passes. But it's also possible that it fails. More importantly, Prop 8 will always pass if Blacks are voting 70-30. That's not scapegoating, that is FACT.

      •  But it isn't figuring out how to solve the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        heineken1717

        problem because THAT isn't the sole problem here. Sure, there is homophobia in the black community. There's homophobia in the white community as well. And in the Latino community...and the Indian community...and so on.

        I can tell you right now - if you focus only on the black community and you're successful, great - but that won't be enough to win the fight because you've ignored all the other groups - AND you've ignored the real reason this prop passed - which is about MORE than just homophobia. I know plenty of people who don't like the idea of homosexuality, but who would also support gay marriage. Obviously it would be great to move those people to be accepting of homosexuality rather than just tolerant, but tolerance is quite a bit better than hate, so it's important to start somewhere.

    •  Bristling defensiveness (4+ / 0-)

      it's not about blame, it's about examination.

      I've seen virtually no one here trying to blame the AA community. I've seen countless people go out of their way to make it very, very clear that blame isn't an issue.

      But when a group of people who votes 95% democratic is voting 70% for a homophobic measure, that is a problem that is unique, and deserves separate examination, and that examination is not an attempt to cast blame, it's not racist, and I am so fucking sick and tired of people trying to claim that it's both an shut this conversation down.

      •  the comment right above yours (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lexicon, Nina, lazybum, royce, mellowwild

        blames the black community (heineken1717 @ 4:17).

        i'm not trying to shut the conversation down, it's just my understanding that blacks make up such a small part of the electorate that they were not enough to flip the vote from no to yes all by themselves.

        is that not true?

        Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
        We inaugurate President Barack Obama in 73 days!

        by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:50:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  As I said (5+ / 0-)

          I have no interest in casting blame. I think it's pointless and counter-productive. And as I said, I've seen virtually no one; there is a small, vocal minority saying stupid shit (as there almost always is here at Dkos).

          The problem I've seen is people using that small, vocal minority saying stupid shit as a bludgeon to say that we can't talk about homophobia in the AA community. That we can't talk about these voting patterns. That the very attempt to broach a discussion on this topic is somehow wrong and somehow constitutes an attempt to assign blame; or that focusing on the AA community is somehow racist because homophobia is everywhere.

          Again, there is no analogous community here; 95% voting for Obama, and 70% voting against gay rights. No other community produces numbers that are even close. And that is why this is something that needs to be discussed and analyzed honestly and openly.

          And yes, I see shanikka's diary as an attempt to shut down that discussion, and it really bothers me.

          •  but the talk about homophobia in the AA community (14+ / 0-)

            is so far being framed in a hopeless sort of way, much in the same way this site was talking about the likelihood of Obama votes in Appalachia.

            I believe there is a way to talk about these voting patterns in a way that does not exclude people who are already on your side.  I remember a fair number of who gives a damn about Appalachia diaries until people who were from that area started saying--wait a minute, we are not a monolith, and how do you expect to approach this area for more votes in the future with an attitude of disrespect?

            homophobia is everywhere.  while I would not say that focusing on the AA Yes on 8 vote is racist, I'm just not sure how this overwhelmingly white blog can advance the issue from a practical standpoint if we encourage the attitude that AA homophobia is the only reason Prop 8 passed, or AA homophobia is the most important homophobia out there.

            for the record, I think we could be discussing LDS homophobia, since without that Prop 8 almost certainly would have failed!  but I would assume there are even fewer Mormons here than blacks.  so where does that leave us???

            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
            We inaugurate President Barack Obama in 73 days!

            by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 02:06:38 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly. (5+ / 0-)

            I'm so sick of the repetition of "gays are blaming blacks". It's bullshit.

            It absolutely is about trying to shut down the discussion. We have every right to feel betrayed just like LGBT people of color have a right to feel betrayed when LGBT communities, events and organizations are not inclusive enough or racial discrimination is practiced by gay bars and businesses.

            Most of us are feeling hurt and shellshocked. Now we're being steamrollered by this fraudulent claim that we're all blaming the blacks for passing Prop 8. Bill Maher didn't say it was their fault, he said it was ironic and he was right. Shanikka raised a straw man and everyone jumped on board. I think her diary sucked. It provided a diversion.

            Yes, some people made stupid comments blaming blacks or saying they would no longer fight for racial justice and equality. They were few and I would bet that some of them won't be saying that after they have some time to heal. The smart thing would have been to call them on it then and let it go for a few days. But as usual, some people have to stir shit up.

            If the 70% figure holds up, there will be some hurt feelings that need to be worked through. That's unavoidable and shutting down the conversation or denying our feelings will accomplish nothing.

            I'm not going to comment here further because Slim and I have little use for one another and I have no desire to stir things up. Somebody please save me some pie.  ;)

            "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

            by homogenius on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 02:45:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I said we'll never get gay marriage via ballot (0+ / 0-)

          with blacks voting 70-30. That's a fact. If you want to call that "blaming," then fine.

          But I'll ask you this simple question. Do you think gay marriage would ever be supported via ballot with blacks voting 70-30? Because if you don't, then you're "blaming blacks" just like I am. If you think gay marriage via ballot is possible with blacks voting 70-30, I'd like to see you explain how.

          •  Consider this: Maybe we don't want "gay marriage" (0+ / 0-)

            on the books at all?  Before you flame, follow me and just consider providing some constructive feedback on what's wrong with my thought process:

            First, we failed at beating this measure because we didn't combat it using a successful strategy - no one group is to blame and the best thing to deal with this at a national level once and for all is
            ...a President Obama and
            ...a singular piece of overt discriminatory legislation that galvanizes the political will and efforts of many around this nation in order to deal with this Nationally and for good.

            I will go one step further - this piece o' shit legislation is already on the books in several states including mine - Missouri.  It appears that only California will have the political heart to take it to the Supreme Court and is in the best position to rally the nation around the cause.  And what better Administration to do that under than Obama's?

            Here's my thought on our strategy -

            1st: Accept Civil Unions ensuring that they guarantee all of the same legal rights as marriage does.
            2nd: Once on the books, challenge the "separate but equal" pretext of such a law
            3rd: Stop fighting to get "gay marriage" on the books and force the gov't to remove "marriage" from the books.  

            This is nothing new, I know, but the truth is this: The gov't should not be in the business of performing 'religious' sacraments.  So stop fighting the Christians for it and let them have it!  Instead, challenge the laws that exist for marriage! Let's force our gov't to get out of the church by extending a law to ALL of its citizens called 'civil unions.'  If subsequently a couple chooses to have their legal bond celebrated through their religious entity, that's on them.  That should NOT be the criteria by which a couple is granted legal rights.

            It seems that the only way to eat this elephant is one bite at a time and by pecking away at the distortions in the law - similar to the approach of the civil rights movement - we can remove the bigotry from the books altogether.

            Now, dealing with the bigotry in the minds and hearts of citizens is something different that we will never legislate and only time will address.

            Thoughts?

            "To kill one person is murder. To kill thousands is foreign policy." Chinese writer Moh-Tze

            by ILean Left on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 03:10:34 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  the government is not in the business (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              taylormattd, ILean Left, physic

              of performing religious sacraments right now.

              states decide which marriages are legal.

              churches decide which marriages get blessed (by that particular church).

              some legal marriages do not get blessed by some churches.

              that is the law NOW.

              I think this is the way to get marriage equality passed.

              getting people to understand that RIGHT NOW there are some churches who won't bless some marriages, but those marriages are legal anyway because the state says so.

              getting people to understand that RIGHT NOW their church cannot be forced to bless any marriage they don't want to bless.

              civil unions may be an intermediate strategy but only as a step on the way to full equality, not in place of full equality.

              various religions can be as bigoted as they like within their own denominational walls, but the separation of church and state combined with the equal protection argument should mean that churches cannot dictate to the state (and to people who do not believe as they do) which marriages are recognized as legal.

              that is the angle I hope they take when this law is challenged in court (which should be any day now). and when that happens we will win marriage equality all over the country, not just in California.

              I don't want to take anything away from people who feel slapped in the face.  i acknowledge the pain is real.  but looking at the big picture, California is likely to have a great test case soon, and paradoxically this setback might lead to a faster national victory than would have happened without it.

              Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
              We inaugurate President Barack Obama in 73 days!

              by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 03:54:46 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I'd like to see you explain (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            taylormattd, Lexicon, mellowwild

            where shanikka or ice said we should ignore the homophobia in the black community.

            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
            We inaugurate President Barack Obama in 73 days!

            by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 03:46:08 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  gay marriage may not be won via ballot at all (6+ / 0-)

            just as interracial marriage was not won via the ballot.

            interracial marriage could not pass via ballot even now in some parts of the country!

            I think the S.Ct. will get involved and marriage equality will be won nationally based on the 1st and 14th amendments.

            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
            We inaugurate President Barack Obama in 73 days!

            by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 03:57:18 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  question: (0+ / 0-)

            who did you end up voting for for president?

            John McCain, 100 years in Iraq "fine with me"

            by taylormattd on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:18:26 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I think it's possible... (0+ / 0-)

            if not desirable. Assuming 10% of voters are AA and voting 70-30, then we'd need to find 4% somewhere else. It may be easier to find that number in other groups.

  •  in my extremely humble opinion your 2 cents (8+ / 0-)

    is worth about 2,000 dollars in today's inflationary hyperbole.

    I have become increasingly disturbed in the four days since the momentous historic (a much overworked word but the only one that suffices here) triumph of November 4th. This followed months and months of bitter battling for supremacy. The best person won. The People spoke.

    Now we here are bitching, blaming, moaning, and kvetching about Emanuel, about prop 8, about Summers, about RFK, about whether Obama should drop everything, rush to Georgia to support Jim Martin, help Franken (that's a president's job says one commentator!), whether the 50 state winning strategy is defunct, about CNN dissing the One, whether America is centre right, centre left, straight down the middle.

    In the 60's I spent some time in India and one of the most difficult things to navigate was driving. the roads were awful, filled with potholes, no centre line at all, let alone left lanes or right lanes, so you drowve your way through pitfalls, cows ambling along, people clustered, monkets swarming, it was a gas!!!!  That is how i see Obamas first couple of years, lurching from let to right, wherever he make forward progress.

    Thats alright by me,. That's why I worked hard to get him elected. Now I'm going to let him get on with the job and see how it all works out.  in the meantime i am going to broaden my horizons and start reading a great deal more stuff from all perspectives so i can reasonably intlligently make my own mind up about what's going on and how i can be part of the solution by becoming more independent.

    That's my 2 cents, so there!

  •  It's a fair issue to discuss, either way (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    icebergslim

    It is fair that the issue is raised. Let's air it out, and then put it behind us.

    If we are to truly get beyond race and prejudicial attitudes, we must realize that no one is immune to error and lack of understanding. We all have areas in which we can grow and learn. Let's not blame each other, let's just realize there is more work to do.

    Civil rights are civil rights. Everyone who voted for that bill needs to look within and honestly think about why they feel the need to dictate how other people live their private lives.

  •  I have to admit... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lexicon, justalittlebitcrazy

    the Prop 8 results put a damper on the election enthusiasm for me.  From the data it looks like older voters mostly approved it.
    The good news is, younger people like my 20 and 17 year old daughter and son have gay friends and are perfectly ok with gays and see it as normal. It will take a few years for the older more bigoted demographic to die off and new attitudes will emerge.  People don't change their minds about stuff like this, younger people replacing them do.

  •  My take: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nina

    and in my opinion - the campaign  with 'gayessence is going to be taught in schools' and 'churches will HAVE to marry gays', those lies really worked.

    The next campaign to 'restore the right to marry' should be framed 'a clannish church from UTAH spent $25 million to overturn the rights of Californians to marry whom they please. Do we want clandestine outsiders to set their version of civil rights into OUR constitution? Vote on ______  2009.'

    My opinion only.

    Bringing former insurgents (like Ayres) into the political process is a sign of stability for a government. W.O. FDL

    by sailmaker on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:06:28 PM PST

  •  Is this the teachings of the LDS? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nina, Pam from Calif

    Is this video telling of the teachings of the LDS true?

    Watch the whole video.

    A cult?

    The LDS was the main opposition to Prop 8.

  •  People gotta read the goddamn data (4+ / 0-)

    Most white people opposed Prop 8 as did most Asians, though barely in each case.

    Assuming that the exit poll was approximately accurate, we note that Black voters backed this 7 to 3.  Since they were 10% of the electorate, they netted 4% (40% x 10%) of the margin of victory (i.e. defeat for us.)  Latinos constituted about 1% (6.0% x .18% = 1.08%) of the net margin.  Asians and whites (not co-incidentally far more secular than Blacks or Latinos) together partially counteracted this net bigotry vote, but not by nearly big enough margins to patch the damage.

    Now we can argue about whether this was due to crappy, indeed incompetent insularity on the part of the No on Prop 8 team.  Maybe we at Daily Kos are at fault for failing to support this well enough.  Maybe we just got outplayed.  

    But we won't win by failing to diagnose the political problem, without fear.  Obama did not fear to go hard into Indiana, Virginia and North Carolina.  Maybe No on Prop 8 lacked Axelrod's vision and boldness.  Maybe Axelrod is now available for hire ;-).  But fear of the truth is always the enemy.

  •  No one's fault (4+ / 0-)

    but EVERYONE didn't do enough.

    Including Obama.

    Everyone's shit stinks on this one.

    how can it be permissable/ to compromise my principle. -- robert palmer

    by Edgar08 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:10:41 PM PST

  •  The campaign was a chaotic mess (6+ / 0-)

    I donated money - way too much of it - from Oregon. I got phone calls reminding me to vote (I don't live in CA), asking me to please vote (I don't live in CA), seeing if I could come down at the last minute to deliver lawn signs - they'd been out for a few weeks, but five days before the election had more (I don't live in CA), and received email asking me to do other local things.

    Meanwhile, my gay and married family members who DID phonebank, who drove to another county to get No on 8 signs because they couldn't find any in San Jose, and who did a ton of GOTV work STILL are not on the No on 8 mailing list, or the mailing list of the community center where they phonebanked! They heard about the phonebanking at church - at least that part of the network worked.

    They didn't donate money, because they're pretty near broke. They have time, though - lots of it. They sought out how to help; nobody ever proactively contacted them.

    I am forwarding 5-10 emails per day to them from Oregon about what's happening this weekend, about legal challenges that can potentially affect their marriage, etc.. It would be comical if it weren't so sad - and potentially so costly.

    "I like to go into Marshall Field's in Chicago just to see all the things there are in the world that I do not want." M. Madeleva, C.S.C.

    by paxpdx on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:12:39 PM PST

  •  A little surprised this is the number one (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    daq3405, Situational Lefty

    issue on Kos.  I think it should be the occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan, because people are dying.

  •  Let's not gloss over the problem (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dunbar, left turn

    w/ regard to minorty communities and gay people. It's clear that even talking about this subject makes a lot of people around here (and judging from the email sent recently, the failed leaders of the No on 8 movement)uncomfortable.

    "African-Americans more than anyone in this country fully understand one's civil rights"

    Wow, talk about stereotyping in the service of being against stereotyping.

    Here's what is important to realize: African Americans are not the only people who voted for Prop. 8, people of all backgrounds were among those who voted for 8. The difference is that white people are called to account for their bigotry while African-Americans are given a pass, because after all as this diarist says, "African-Americans more than anyone in this country fully understand one's civil rights". Well, as a gay man, you could have fooled me. Just like that time when I was at a concert at Soldier Field and the female African-American Andy Frein usher called me a 'Little Faggot' or the times when I attended college in Rogers Park and was threatened by groups of black men on Sheridan Rd. also calling me a faggot, right out in the open, or then there was the time when I was also in college at a basketball game and the opposing team's fans-African Americans singled me and some friends out and starting shouting words like 'faggot'. Those times prove that if, indeed, African-Americans are more acutely aware of the affects of bigotry than many I have encountered are even more at fault than other non-African-Americans who have mistreated me based on my sexual orientation.

    I've made a lot of comments on this issue over the past couple of days because the truth must be told. It's unfortunate that the fact that the African-American community has a demonstrable problem with anti-gay bigotry. It does not fit the narrative that the political left has had for decades. You know what I say to that, 'Tough shit!' I will continue to talk about the unacceptable bigotry I have been subjected to by anyone-even if it's incovenient for the Left.

  •  The entire Prop. 8 uproar is overstated (4+ / 0-)

    Now, let me very quickly add that I was totally disgusted at its passing on Tuesday, and ashamed that my state was the most recent vehicle for this kind of antiquated intolerance ... but much of the consternation before the election, and much of the furor following the election, has in my mind been a touch overplayed.

    On the first hand it is very, very unclear that the ballot initiative was legal, and that it will not be overturned by the State Supreme Court.  The California constitution establishes two types of alterations to it's contents.  An amendment, being a modest alteration or addition to the constitution can be accomplished through a ballot initiative.  A revision, being a substantive modification to fundamental ideals, requires the traditional 2/3 legislative action.  Now, I guess it is debatable whether Prop. 8 would be considered an amendment or a revision, but seeing as the State Supreme Court already ruled that the previous incarnation of the state constitution implicitly allowed for gay marriages under the equal protections clause, it would seem difficult for them to subsequently conclude that an alteration to that fundamental fact was anything other than a serious revision of the constitution and thus requiring legislative action to pass.

    Additionally, there have been a number of people who have expressed dismay and concern that this Proposition could be passed in California, purportedly a universally progressive leaning state.  That is of course absurd.  California has a number of remarkably progressive enclaves, but in a state of over 37 million people, almost 1/8th the entire population of this country, conservative strongholds do still abound.  Additionally, California is arguably the most diverse region in the world (New Yorkers might contest that, but outside of NYC proper .... ) and with that diversity comes a variety of political positions.  There has been a lot made about the effects of African American social conservatism on this issue, but living here my whole life it is not difficult to see that Catholic Hispanic sensibilities and Christian Asian sensibilities were also contributing factors ... and oh yeah, the crazy white fundies that inhabit the entire interior of this state.

    It would have been a fantastic result if we could have sent this initiative packing, but the truth of the matter is that states like Massachusetts and Connecticut are very likely much better positioned, if only because of their size and relative homogeneity to popularly affirm gay rights initiatives.

    And yes, I know this decision deeply affects an entire subset of society that I am not a part of, but with whom I have many associations both friends and family, none of whom are exactly losing their minds over this result.  I am proud that a few are actively involved in the peaceful protests across the state which I think is a very good first step, not the least because it places the onus of activism on this issue on those persons it most directly affects, which I think is where it should more or less stay.  I just don't see this as a significant enough issue for the Democratic party and certainly an Obama administration to tackle right now given the severity of problems we are ALL facing.  I think we should all lend our support whenever issues of basic civil rights emerge, but our focus needs to be on fixing the economy, and laying the foundations for universal healthcare, and ensuring that any bailout of GM mandates massive focus on alternative fuel technologies ... and why not compulsory participation in some government sponsored health plan, and extricating our troops and our billions of dollars from Iraq, and on and on ...

    This comment is not meant at all to trash the significance of what Prop 8 means to a large number of people, only to place in perspective first the very tenuous nature of that result, and second the relatively narrow implications of that result.  Keep heart, gay marriage isn't going anywhere and it isn't going to take long for that to be cemented in public opinion ... for other issues, that affect us all in even more profound ways, I am afraid the same cannot be said.

  •  Couldn't agree with you more. (6+ / 0-)

    I understand the anger and frustration of many people but to scapegoat ethnic groups for a communication failure is disgraceful.  All you need to do is read the basis on which the law suits will be appealed to see exactly how this issue should have been represented to the elctorate.  This above all is a constitutional issue.  The Courts already had decided the constitutionality of the issue.  What the Yes people are trying to do is change the Constitution based on a simple majority.  This was never articulated as clearly as it has been post-election.  The No on 8 people took the bait and made it into whether Gay Marriage would be taught in schools.  I hope the proposition gets overturned in the courts and then the No forces do a better job fighting the next proposition to revise the Constitution.  And when that day comes they are going to need a united opposition, not one pissed off for being scapegoated.

  •  Icebergslim, I always appreciate your diaries, (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nina, sephius1, Lolo08, abrauer

    including the intent of this one.

    But please do not perpetuate that the myth that the defective CNN exit poll has "statistical facts."

    Shannikka's excellent diary debunked the faulty CNN exit poll, so the statement that 70% of Blacks were for prop 8 is not a "statistical fact."

     Shanikka: Facts Belie the Scapegoating of Black People for Proposition 8

    Indeed, the statement that "70% of Blacks were for prop 8," while not equivalent to blood libel, is on the level of Palinesque idiocy.

    I have to admit that I, at first, uncritically accepted the CNN poll.  Shanikka's diary, however, rescued my idiocy from reaching Palinesque propotions.

    It is sad, but instructive, how the citiing of sloppy data leads to slander of a race of people.

    One love.

    If lying were an Olympic sport, Sarah Palin would have won the gold medal.

    by pwr2thepeople on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:18:30 PM PST

  •  It didn't help when Obama said (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mo, Leftcandid

    that he was against same sex marriage.  It just didn't.


    The religious fanatics didn't buy the republican party because it was virtuous, they bought it because it was for sale

    by nupstateny on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:19:05 PM PST

    •  Well, he was asked (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      left turn, lollydee, Lady Libertine

      And, unfortunately, coming out for marriage equality is electoral poison for a candidate for president.  It may not have helped, but the hurt was minimal - and we got President Obama.

      "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

      by fishhead on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:22:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hurt was minimal? To you, maybe. eom (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nupstateny, Dunbar, carllaw
        •  I meant the hurt to the No campaign (0+ / 0-)

          "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

          by fishhead on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:51:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  OK, my bad. But it seems (0+ / 0-)

            the vote was close enough that minimal hurt might have made the difference anyway.

            •  would you prefer president mcCain? (0+ / 0-)

              and a no on prop 8?

              Pick your battles....

              •  Ridiculous argument (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                homogenius, carllaw

                Putting sufficient effort into No on 8 would hardly have cost Obama the election.

                •  In indiana? In NC? in Ohio or Florida? (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  revsue, sephius1, ILean Left

                  Are you 100% sure?

                  •  Sorry, I don't believe (0+ / 0-)

                    for a nanosecond that putting sufficient resources into fighting Prop 8 would have cost Obama the election.

                  •  I'd have to agree with Lolo08 on this... (0+ / 0-)

                    Look, we failed at beating this measure because we didn't combat it using a successful strategy - no one group is to blame and the best thing to deal with this at a national level is
                    ...a President Obama and
                    ...a singular piece of overt discriminatory legislation that galvanizes the political will and efforts of many around this nation in order to deal with this Nationally and for good.

                    I will go one step further - this piece o' shit legislation is already on the books in several states including mine - Missouri.  It appears that only California will have the political heart to take it to the Supreme Court and is in the best position to rally the nation around the cause.  And what better Administration to do that under than Obama's?

                    Here's my thought on our strategy -

                    1st: Accept Civil Unions ensuring that they guarantee all of the same legal rights as marriage does.
                    2nd: Once on the books, challenge the "separate but equal" pretext of such a law
                    3rd: Stop fighting to get "gay marriage" on the books and force the gov't to remove "marriage" from the books.  

                    This is nothing new, I know, but the truth is this: The gov't should not be in the business of performing 'religious' sacraments.  So stop fighting the Christians for it and let them have it!  Instead, challenge the laws that exist for marriage! Let's force our gov't to get out of the church by extending a law to ALL of its citizens called 'civil unions.'  If subsequently a couple chooses to have their legal bond celebrated through their religious entity, that's on them.  That should NOT be the criteria by which a couple is granted legal rights.

                    It seems that the only way to eat this elephant is one bite at a time and by pecking away at the distortions in the law - similar to the approach of the civil rights movement - we can remove the bigotry from the books altogether.

                    Now, dealing with the bigotry in the minds and hearts of citizens is something different that we will never legislate and only time will address.

                    "To kill one person is murder. To kill thousands is foreign policy." Chinese writer Moh-Tze

                    by ILean Left on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 03:01:46 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  "Separate but equal" (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      left turn, sandiegoblues

                      The California Supreme Court case already argued has already done the debunking of the 'separate but equal' myth.  Be aware of the case before you comment.

                      Re:  your 3rd assertion...In a Libertarian fantasyland, the government wouldn't be in the business of validating relationships.  However, all the legal and business terminology about couplehood and the benefits accorded it is already done with one word:  "marriage".  And this is why separate isn't equal...and why an attempt to make everyone else change and end the practice of civil law recognition of marriage is a nonstarter.  The quickest way to end any campaign for rights to marry is to suggest that no one have it.  This would validate the evangelical right's argument that gay people are trying to take something FROM them.  It's not an equality argument for them.

    •  I agree with this (0+ / 0-)

      but, from what I saw, better off saying he was against gay marriage than to say he was for it and "it's coming whether you like it or not".

      What do you call a parent that believes in abstinence only sex ed? A Grandparent.

      by ChurchofBruce on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 06:19:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Lest we forget (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    royce, FrigginBoobs, nycjoc, mellowwild

    Most whites voted AGAINST Barack Obama.  I believe the number was 57% for McCain and other candidates.  Does that mean that the Caucasian American community consists of racist reactionaries?  Some, I suppose.  But I don't see diaries excoriating white folks for not supporting Obama popping up on DKos.  What I do see, however, are diaries and comments suggesting that Obama should have corralled his supposed zombie army of African American supporters to beat down Prop Hate. Or that he should have taken a holiday from campaigning for president to stump across California.

    "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

    by fishhead on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:20:15 PM PST

  •  nonsense?? (0+ / 0-)

    If you're talking about the group finger pointing (AAs, etc), you should probably say that.

    From my reading, all you're saying is "shut up you stupid fags no one gives a crap about your problems"

    Is that what you mean?

    •  I doubt Ice means that at all. (8+ / 0-)

      Ice is suggesting instead of pointing fingers and hurting feelings, we find ways to fight this prop 8.  

      In the unlikely story of America there's never been anything false about hope. -Obama

      by Luthien Tinuviel on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:27:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It wasn't clear in the diary at all (0+ / 0-)

        I pointed out that if that's what he meant, he probably should say that.

        •  Well, hopefully he doesn't mean that. (2+ / 0-)

          We need to get to work on bringing down prop 8, that's all I know. Just tell me what I can do, and I'll try my best to help. We need to pull together and fight this thing!

          In the unlikely story of America there's never been anything false about hope. -Obama

          by Luthien Tinuviel on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:30:19 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I think the diary is clear on one simple fact (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lexicon, lazybum

          We failed at beating this measure because we didn't combat it using a successful strategy - no one group is to blame.

          I will go one step further - this piece o' shit legislation is already on the books in several states.  It appears that only California will have the political heart to take it to the Supreme Court.  And what better Administration to do that under than Obama's?

          Here's my thought on our strategy -

          1st: Accept Civil Unions only if they guarantee all of the same rights as marriage does.
          2nd: Once on the books, challenge the "separate but equal" pretext of such a law
          3rd: Stop fighting to get "gay marriage" on the ballot and force the gov't to remove "marriage" from the books.  

          This is nothing new, I know, but the truth is this: The gov't should not be in the business of performing 'religious' sacraments.  So stop fighting the Christians for it!  Instead, challenge the laws for marriage! Let's force our gov't to get out of the church by extending a law to ALL of its citizens called 'civil unions.'  If subsequently a couple chooses to have their legal bond celebrated through their religious entity, that's on them.  That should NOT be the criteria by which a couple is granted legal rights.

          It seems that the only way to eat this elephant is one bite at a time and by pecking away at the distortions in the law - similar to the approach of the civil rights movement - we can remove the bigotry from the books altogether.

          Now, dealing with the bigotry in the minds and hearts of citizens is something different that we will never legislate and only time will address.

          "To kill one person is murder. To kill thousands is foreign policy." Chinese writer Moh-Tze

          by ILean Left on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 02:53:37 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Well said ,Slim (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nina, FrigginBoobs, mellowwild

    I support Barack America and his trusted sidekick Joe Delaware! -Socratic

    by valadon on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:26:17 PM PST

  •  You either have steel skin or get out of the game (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Elise, left turn

    I agree, and I understand what you're saying.  It takes "steel skin" to go into neighborhoods where you're the odd one out, and knock on strangers doors alone, to convince them of your political agenda. But that's what it takes.  The Progressive movement ignored California because we were too focused on getting Obama in office, and that had horrific consequences for CA's gay population. For that I'm deeply sorry.

    Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.

    by Futuristic Dreamer on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:40:51 PM PST

    •  Lots of KOS diaries about GOTV on prop 8. Seemed (0+ / 0-)

      to me from the outside - before the election - that the effort was being handled well.  It seemed like a concerted effort.  Now, we are realizing it wasn't concerted enough.  

      I'm not sure whether that means efforts weren't strong enough or that the opposition is too strong.  

      It seems like the political climate re: this issue is like it was against the dems nationally in 2004.  If that assessment is correct then two things need to happen for such amendments to pass.  1) A truly great spokesperson needs to come forward, 2) the political climate has to change (perhaps) because of the great spokesperson

  •  Thanks for being a voice of reason. (7+ / 0-)

    If people would do a real indepth post-election examination of Prop 8 efforts in CA (both pro and against) and then build a smart strategy based on lessons learned, then I think they would see hope for optimism in the future.  

    This scapegoating is not only stupid and ill-informed, it is counterproductive and doesn't bode well for future success on this issue.

    I have a feeling the defeat was a mixture of lack of information, lack of consistent messaging and advocacy, poor framing, confusing language on the Proposition itself -- all along with stubborn homophobia obviously spread across ethnic groups.

    I am relatively politically aware, but didn't know what Prop 8 was until about 2 weeks before the election, and that was only because I hang out here on DKos. People cannot assume that everyone is so aware as they are on the issues that are vital to them personally.  That's not reality.

    I'm willing to throw my support behind overturning this outcome in CA, but I'll be damned if I'm scapegoated for it being passed in the first place.

    Progress doesn't come in a straight line, as African Americans can well tell -- it's full of crushing defeats and soaring victories.  You just have to keep regrouping moving forward.

    "Pie. That's what I want." Barack Obama in Philly, 10-11-08

    by PoliticalJunkessa on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:45:27 PM PST

  •  My dilemma (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vets74, carllaw, Pakalolo

    First of all I 100 percent agree that blame directed at ethnic groups has been very destructive and not in the least helpful.

    But here is the problem I have noticed since it passed. I went to mydd today and someone was explaining why they voted Yes. And I found it very hard to listen to it or even read through it. Its very very hard to respectfully listen to an argument against your own  civil rights.  

    And then some part of me wonders if that isn't self-destructive..to give respect to that position.

    Maybe its the job of other straight people to labor with the people who voted yes. Maybe its my  job to just scream "NO"

  •  The US Supreme Court Is Out of Reach for 20 Years (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    David PA

    That's how long Bush's new theocracy loving majority will hold.

    Prop 8 sure seems to me to "be" unconstitutional by equal protection and 9th amendment logic, but the KRATS almost certainly would not find that.

    You'll have to settle for what you can win where the Supreme Court can't touch it.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:50:09 PM PST

  •  Two Qs: How soon could a new vote happen, and (0+ / 0-)

    what are the chances of getting it worded so a "yes" vote means marriage for gays and lesbians?

  •  Not a mention of (0+ / 0-)

    this line of argument.  At all.  Race trumps heterosexism.

    People know what they do; they frequently know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do does. -Michel Foucault

    by eamonsean on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 01:58:54 PM PST

  •  don't place blame, but target for information (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    droopyd, FrigginBoobs, Eddie L, daq3405

    It is not African-Americans fault that this legislation was passed and not defeated.  Read this information of the break down here and get the statistical facts.

    Well, actually, if you take out the African-American vote when you look at the statistics quoted in that link... Prop 8 would have been defeated 50.13 percent to 49.87.

    Of course, that's analogous to saying if we took out the southern vote in 2004, John Kerry actually won the rest of the country.  The fact is that African-Americans get to vote, too, just like southerners do.

    That massive support for Prop 8 among AA voters does state pretty clearly where we need to focus future information campaigns. Only white Republicans showed support as high as AA voters did for the measure among the demographic breakdowns.

  •  I agree. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vets74, FrigginBoobs, daq3405, mellowwild

    I think that Prop 8 opponents have to take a honest look at what happened.  One doesn't win friends or influence people by saying that they are at fault for the initative not going one's way.  It's a bigger mistake to blame voters, because voters have the right to vote anyway they choose for any reason.

    The Pro-8 folk were better organized and better funded.  They simply did a better job of selling their point of view, regardless of how flawed it comes across to those who know better.

    I have been reading the Daily Kos only since the General Election because I really have enjoyed the blogs and the level of information I could get here on progressive issues.  However I just joined a few days ago because I am outraged at the finger-pointing at African Americans, specifically because I am AA.

    I have been outraged at the progressive talk shows calling voters stupid or morons or idiots because this initative passed.  The truth here is that the opposition side didn't get their POV out soon enough to make a difference.

    The Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s was fought on a federal level -- both by law and in the courts.  What happened here is that someone did their homework to know that a simple majority can change the state's constitution -- a point not raise to the level of alarm that it should have been.

    Furthermore, if one is going make the case that gay rights is a Civil Rights issue, then it's time for the gay movement to FOLLOW the CR model and that has not been done yet.  The Civil Rights Act needs amending to include 'sexual orientation' as a protected class group.  Then the federal law can be used to challenge state law on a constitutional basis.

    Instead of attacking black folk for this failure, why doesn't someone just ask us how this can be done and leave the hot button issues of religion out of it because you will never win if you persist in challenging one's faith.  It doesn't work on white christian conservatives as you can well see and it won't work on minorities of any faith, either.

    Re-frame your case to get traction.

  •  I was saying the exact same things... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    daq3405, mellowwild

    This prop 8 thing is a hot topic here, but its turning me off.

  •  As Frangela put it on Stephanie Miller (6+ / 0-)

    the other day,

    I'm kind of tired of black people making up 13% of the population and yet 100% of the problem.

    PLEASE do not use this as an excuse to further divide our country.  The blame game isn't going to solve anything.

    Save the parrots: Drink shade-grown coffee!

    by oscarsmom on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 02:20:45 PM PST

    •  True but, we should blame and work the churches. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      oscarsmom

      For as long as the churches stay as predominantly against such amendments, the battle will never be won.

      Remember, the churches were a big part of the 60x civil rights movement working.  Even though some churches demagogued, perhaps as many championed equal rights - enough did.

  •  Buyer's remorse. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    icebergslim, mellowwild

    It should take more than a Prop vote to take away a citizen's right.

    It's silly to carry on about the demographics of the vote. Alot of people didn't fully grasp what they were voting for. That may disproportionally lean to a specific race, but that's ultimately meaningless.

    Half the people who vote for Props don't really know if they're voting for something or against it when they get in the booth.

    The Mormon's spent millions of dollars for Hate legislation in one of our country's most liberal state and they won...in the same election in which we elected the first black man president.  What's the word for that?  It's way beyond irony.

    From the looks and sounds of things, California is just now waking up to what they've done.

    "Here we are, trapped in the amber of the moment. There is no why." - Kurt Vonnegut

    by Wayneman on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 02:24:04 PM PST

    •  ACLU and Lambda Suit (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      revsue, Wayneman, left turn, mellowwild

      ACLU and Lambda have  a suit arguing that you can't in fact take away a major right like this with a simple majority vote.  I actually do believe its the best way to go.

      They tried to argue this prior to the election but the court wouldn't here it then but are more likely to hear it now.

       When you think about it..should a simple majority be able to take a civil right away?  It seems to me clear that it should take more than that.

  •  I prefer defeating it at the ballot (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lexicon, daq3405, mellowwild

    box in 2010 by passing an initiative to repeal it. I frankly have tired at the attacks against both Blacks and Mormons here. It's unbecoming for this site.

  •  Its really not complicated (3+ / 0-)

    A case study of how Obama won North Carolina is all you need.
    -First you study the demographics of the state.
    -Then you identify your likely voters in the case of prop 8 that would be white women.
    -Then you identify the voters that are least likely to support your cause in the case of prop 8 that would be religious white, blacks and latinos.

    So the campaign focuses on the demographics least likely to support your cause to minimize the losses and your organization gears up to turning out the base on election day.

  •  Another view (12+ / 0-)

    Please read this memo from the president of the People For the American Way Foundation.

    As a mother who has raised two children in a 30-year relationship with another woman, I fully understand the depth of hurt and anger at voters’ rejection of our families’ equality. But responding to that hurt by lashing out at African Americans is deeply wrong and offensive — not to mention destructive to the goal of advancing equality.

    Angrily blaming African Americans for the passage of Prop 8 is not going to help open doors for the kind of long-term conversations we need to have about homophobia and discrimination. It will, instead, further isolate and undermine courageous African American leaders who have taken a firm stand for equality. Alice Huffman, president of the state NAACP, has been an outspoken champion on equality and on Prop 8, and right-wing leaders are fomenting attacks on her from within the organization. People like Alice Huffman need our support and strategic thinking, not complaints or condemnation.

    Broad-brush denunciation of African Americans by white gay leaders also fosters the incredibly damaging perception that the LGBT and African American communities are two separate, rather than overlapping entities, and undermines the work of African American LGBT leaders.

    "...the greatest tragedy...is not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people." MLK, Jr.

    by royce on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 02:44:00 PM PST

  •  Would expect no less (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    poligirl

    Bashing African-Americans, Hispanics and the majority WHITES

    Nice caps, meh.

  •  Oh good. Another one. (0+ / 0-)

    Make it stop.

    "(Our) stories are singular, but our destiny is shared, and a new dawn of American leadership is at hand."

    by Detroit Mark on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 03:19:12 PM PST

  •  I can understand the anger. (0+ / 0-)

    The gay community is feeling a bit betrayed at the moment and from there perspective all of those they thought were allies have left them out of the loop.

    Not only with this campaign but in general we have let California slide a bit and let the right get a bit to comfy in California me thinks.

  •  Prop Hate (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nina

    is just a pothole dug by bigots on the road to freedom.

    Reactionary Mormons and Xtian haters got to have their little moment of public sanctity. Big Deal. The breeder marriage, sanctified by thousands of years of mysogyny and patriarchal oppressiveness, presently sporting a greater than 50% divorce rate, has no doubt been saved.

    The California SC's previous ruling on gay marriage seems to me to have anticipated this outcome and by calling marriage a fundamental right the SC decision has made the appeal against Prop. Hate very likely to prevail against the haters, ignoramuses, and other varieties of homophobes.

    Oh, and for the record, bigots who use religion as a club to beat people with are despicable. The Mormons, Catholics, and other religiously motivated folk who climbed on board the hate party deserve all the contempt this thread and future threads have to pile on them.

    Prop 8, putting the hate in faith.

    Shit, hasn't the world had enough of that sad story.

    "Oh Harold, that is wonderful. Go and love some more." Ruth Gordon to Bud Cort in Harold and Maude.

    by TNThorpe on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 03:36:15 PM PST

  •  re: presenting gay marriage as a 'civil right' (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lazybum

    i've heard numerous african americans who are deeply offended by this argument.  in a nutshell, you are 'born' in a certain race and can't 'pass', so your racial identity is solidified and unchosen in a way that (according to them) sexual identity isn't.  so there is no way you can compare race to sexual identity, as sexual identity is a choice and can be 'hidden'.

    so with a lot of african americans, the 'civil rights' argument BACKFIRES.  we need to do more thinking about how to approach this argument in the future.  perhaps as more information on the origins of sexual identity becomes available it can be put to use in this arena.

    the two underlying issues are cultural and religious sanction of bigotry against GLBTQ people.  people come up with these wacky arguments because they don't want to just come out and say 'i don't like queers!'. back in the day that was perfectly acceptable, so i guess we've made some progress.....

    •  Exactly... which is why (0+ / 0-)

      I suggested that this issue is reframed.  Use the lessons of the Civil Rights movement to advance the agenda, but frame it differently.  I think that there are points left on the table that has better traction for convincing.  I think that people, regardless of their views on homosexuality, can understand the human need to be able to support another human being when they are sick or be able to have adequate health insurance coverage or to be able to be equally represented because they pay their fair share of taxes.  There are more things in common than the 'third rail' buzzwords that serves to divide and conquer.

      And while I would not necessarily agree that sexual identity is a choice (although those who come from a religious prospective would certainly take that position), the correct point here is that sexual identity is something that can be hidden, while race is identifiable by sight.  That is what makes the comparison offensive, although it's no less true.

      Sexual orientation is a civil right, but it has to stand as a uniquely protected class group, while emphasizing the similar CONSEQUENCES of discrimination that other protected classes share.

      I hope that makes sense...

      •  In our long history, there were AAs who "passed" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        revsue, carllaw

        as white, hiding their true selves, at great cost to their emotional health too. Unlike racial minorities, GLBT youth grow up, and face coming out, often without the emotional support of belonging to a family, a community, a church that shares your values and nurtures and protects against the prejudice of the outside world. They face isolation and rejection from their own families because of who they are. So there are differences as well as similarities in the particular circumstances of discrimination. No group should want to win the "who has it worse" contest. Equal rights must be the standard for all.

        •  And this is not about 'who has it worse'... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nycjoc, mellowwild

          ...or is it?  My point here is that the gay community needs to priorize what they want:  to be legally protected or to have everyone accept them as equals.

          I can tell you unequivocally that one of those priorities will take much longer to achieve than the other.

          Trust me on this one.  This I know for a fact.

    •  by dropping the civil rights argument (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      revsue

      you are letting the bigots frame the debate though. We need to explain to the African American community WHY it is a civil right, not try and hide it.  There is NO scientific evidence what so ever that sexual identity is chosen. The notion that orientation can be hidden is deeply offensive to the gay community.

      you scratch a redneck and you will find a liberal underneath.....

      by Schtu on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:32:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well then... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nycjoc

        You can start by explaining it to me because I am African American and what I'm trying to tell you is a way to get what you want.  Now you say that hiding orientation is deeply offensive, but you miss the point.  Gays CAN CHOOSE to hide sexual orientation if they wanted to.  That is not to suggest that they SHOULD.  African Americans cannot hide their race by choice under any circumstances.  That is the distinction in this debate that has to be understood and respected before you can move to the the next base.  As I will keep repeating, you will hit a brick wall with coupling gay rights with civil rights until you respect that point.

        Also, I am not debating that sexual identity is chosen, either.  But I guarantee you that you will get no where if you pit that argument against someone else's religious beliefs.  That is why making your case in a way that pits who you are against others'religious values will simply not work.

        Whether it's offensive to you or not, one thing to learn from the Civil Rights movement of the 60's is that the need to have your legal rights must outweigh the desire to have everyone accept you because I can tell you by direct experience that they don't both come at the same time.

        Sometimes it doesn't come at all and with that, welcome to understanding the black experience in America.

        •  hi smooth (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Schtu, revsue, carllaw

          "Gays CAN CHOOSE to hide sexual orientation if they wanted to.  That is not to suggest that they SHOULD.  African Americans cannot hide their race by choice under any circumstances.  That is the distinction in this debate that has to be understood and respected before you can move to the the next base."

          first i'd be interested to here HOW this should be acknowledge and respected and what the next step should be.

          secondly, on the whole or largely your above points hold true.  but only with a lot of 'buts' and exceptions.  for example, there were many people of african american descent who, through additional caucasian ancestry, end up being able to 'pass' as white.  a number of them did so.  how would civil rights apply to those individuals?  since they can pass and get their civil rights that way, does that make them any more or less entitled?  does that make it less wrong to deny their civil rights than if they 'looked' more 'black'? what about their rights to associate with who they choose - another civil right.  their chances of passing successfully will increase if they never see their family again, and choose to marry someone who looks white.  how does this factor into the question?

          in addition, gay people can CHOOSE successfully to hide their sexual orientation only by remaining celibate their entire lives. again, this goes to freedom of association and pursuit of happiness, both civil rights addressed in the constitution.  it also creates a 'separate but equal' situation - sure, you can have all the same civil rights as straights, as long as you choose not to actually exercise them (marriage was defined as a civil right by the u.s. supreme court in the decision which struck down anti-miscegenation laws).i can't see how it's equal to be an adult without the ability to marry whom you choose, have a family, and have that family accorded the same legal and societal recognition as other people's families are.  

          plus, we've all know gay people that came across as gay no matter WHAT they did.  there's always people who don't fit into current norms of sexual identity. just because they're different doesn't mean they don't get civil rights.  civil rights apply to ALL CITIZENS.  that's what makes our country great.

          •  Hello and Let Me Try to Explain Further... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mellowwild

            "first i'd be interested to hear HOW this should be acknowledge and respected and what the next step should be."

            By understanding that point, firstly.  Second, if you want someone ON your side, you have to understand where they are coming from.  Especially if you know you will need their help.  That's also the next step, btw.

            As to your other point.  Too narrow to be substantative.  The few individuals who 'passed' as white probably should have been classified as white in that they were 1/4 or 1/8 or so black.  But I didn't come up with the 'one drop rule'.  You try making sense of it because I cannot.  The point here is that obviously, many people of color obviously cannot pass as white on sight.  That is not the case for someone who is gay.  

            "in addition, gay people can CHOOSE successfully to hide their sexual orientation only by remaining celibate their entire lives. "

            Obviously this is not true because there have been gay folk from the beginning of time and they have hardly been celibate.  Closeted?  Yes.  But not celibate.

            Look, the only point I'm trying to make here,  and it was more of a suggestion because I've lived thru the CR movement, is that you are only going to run in circles on this matter by arguing acceptance vs. getting legal rights on the books.  I say this not because I'm homophobic -- I am not, but I know many many many black folk who are and all they will do is hold up the Bible as to their reason why.

            I don't know how to fight that.  You can't say that they are ignorant, because that is their faith to believe what they believe from a moral standpoint.

            But here is the difference.  There is still compassion there.  There can be an appeal to human compassion.  But be careful not to be so caught up in your view that you only harden the other side.  The people who pushed Prop 8 were vastly WHITE.  These people have hardened their views.  Don't push the blacks in that same corner.  That would be a mistake.

            I'm only trying to get you to see a way to get the rights that you deserve to have.

            •  hi smooth (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              carllaw

              "I'm only trying to get you to see a way to get the rights that you deserve to have."

              which i appreciate, i'm just having a hard time seeing what you propose as the way.

              "...you are only going to run in circles on this matter by arguing acceptance vs. getting legal rights on the books."

              i don't understand what you're saying here.  how is acceptance versus or against legal rights on the books?

              "Obviously this is not true because there have been gay folk from the beginning of time and they have hardly been celibate.  Closeted?  Yes.  But not celibate."

              well, they weren't always closeted, it depended on how they were viewed in the particular society. and if you don't remain celibate, then people are going to start to know that you're having same sex sex, and you'll have a very difficult time 'passing' (ask larry craig). and as i said, there's a lot of gays who just plain can't pass. and what about hermaphrodites?  i agree that it is different from race, but to say EVERYBODY is going to be able to hide their sexual orientation completely effectively is just bogus, from what i've seen in life anyway.

              "The people who pushed Prop 8 were vastly WHITE.  These people have hardened their views.  Don't push the blacks in that same corner.  That would be a mistake."

              i think i see what you're getting at here, and i agree.  interestingly enough, the mormon church that so pushed prop 8 has a less than stellar record of acceptance of african americans.

              part of the trouble, as i see it, is semantic.  the phrase 'civil rights' is linked to the history of the african american struggle for various rights in the '60's.  however, civil rights as a u.s. constitutional issue has a much larger application and touches all citizens.  so gay issues ARE civil rights issues, as are women's rights, disability rights, etc.  of course there will be differences between all of these cases as well as within those cases.

              let's take disability rights.  most people would agree with disabled people having rights, after all 'they didn't choose to be disabled'.  but, what about someone who became parapalegic because they drove drunk and caused a car accident?  what about someone who became paralyzed through a car accident that was caused because they took prescription drugs, prescribed by their doctor who said that there would be no impairment, but there was?  because some people may bear some responsibility for causing their disability, does that mean all people with disabilities should not have civil rights?  or just those who 'caused' it?  if so, who gets to decide who gets rights and who doesn't?

              what about people who can 'hide' part of their disability.  should they be forced to do so before they get to exercise their rights?  what about someone who has spasmodic twitches.  the twitches can be stopped, but only by taking medicine with extremely unpleasant side effects.  should they be forced to take that medicine to mitigate their disability before they can exercise their rights?

              the role of disability in the exercise of rights has come up in the last decade in the case of electronic voting machines, which are supposed to help the blind and others vote in privacy, but have many other pitfalls.

              my point is that civil rights affect everyone, it's a greater issue than the era of the '60's.  and every group will have similarities and differences when it comes to civil rights.  i think if we expand the discussion, and focus on compassion as smoothnmellow has urged, we might get a fairer hearing.

              "I'm only trying to get you to see a way to get the rights that you deserve to have."

              we ALL deserve them - every single one of us!!!!

              p.s. it didn't help that the pro 8 commercials were allowed to lie blatantly with no legal repercussions whatsoever.  anyway, i'm hitting the hay - sleep tight, all!

              •  Slightly off topic... (0+ / 0-)

                Why DO we continue to allow people to lie in political commercials, anyway?

                If we passed a law saying that you must have proof of what you propose as factual, or will be prosecuted for saying it--what a difference it would make in our life!

                "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.

                by revsue on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:22:00 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  ITA (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              nycjoc

              "first i'd be interested to hear HOW this should be acknowledge and respected and what the next step should be."

              By understanding that point, firstly.  Second, if you want someone ON your side, you have to understand where they are coming from.  Especially if you know you will need their help.  That's also the next step, btw.

              I recently read an article called The White Negro and the Negro White. Written in 1961, it was a Berkeley term paper that explored the similarities and differences between "the black bourgeoisie and whites who adhere to a beat philosophy of life".

              In my opinion, the same general comparisons could be made of "socially conservative blacks and progressive whites", if only to gain an understanding of the former in hopes of building an alliance with the latter.

              I do believe that it is a bitter pill to swallow that "black" and "progressive" are not necessarily the same thing, as socially conservative black votes have recently proven.

              Progressives unfamiliar with socially conservative black folk assumed that these folk were allies because of the color of their skin and the past treatment by the establishment, without truly examining their POV.

              It's no secret that many socially conservative black folk are homophobic... to black folk... but for progressives to be shocked that socially conservative black folk were actually gasp conservative, shows that there has not been a concerted effort made by progressives to find causes to sufficiently unify a coalition and get these folk on the side of civil rights for all.

              The white Negro and the Negro White states:

              As has often been noted, the black bourgeoisie take a very positive stand toward middle-class values and are very critical of average Negroes. Frazier has written, "they have accepted unconditionally the values of the white bourgeois world: its morals and its canons of respectability, its standards of beauty and consumption. In fact, they have tended to overemphasize their conformity to white ideals." 2 They have strongly internalized middle-class values emphasizing self-control, deferred gratification, achievement, extreme cleanliness and rigid moral standards. With their strong acceptance of these middle-class values, these Negroes are attempting to separate themselves from the supposed values of the Negro lower class and hipsters, i.e., the stereotyped values with which many whites still would identify them.

              Although it is very easy to misinterpret the above passage, let me point out what I gathered from it. Because of being discriminated against, the black bourgeoisie walk the straight and narrow. Not for heavenly reward, but to prove themselves worthy to society at large and to counteract perceptions of them as 'watermelon eating, food stamp receiving, broken down family having, lazy etc., etc., etc. Negroes.

              This separation is seen within the black community, even as recently as Chris Rock's commentary on 'Black folk verses Niggas'.

              Unfortunately, homosexuality is regaled to the latter. This is the perception that must be changed if progressives of all colors wish to form a true alliance with socially conservative black folk.

              I could say much more but I respect the fact that many progressives devastatingly  affected by the passing of prop 8 are still grieving and are not open to ways in which the alliance can be strengthened.

              Progressives, especially black progressives are a patient lot. We have to be... we're caught in the middle of this struggle and can understand both perspectives. One thing is certain however... this blame game is benefiting no one.

  •  Rec'd, I don't know what's so hard to see wrong (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mellowwild

    in this post, thanks...

  •  Here's a question (0+ / 0-)

    that's kind of peripheral to this debate, but not really.

    How the hell did the Mormons get so involved in this? Is there a huge LDS population in California or something? (I seem to recall reading that most of the LDS opposition poured in from out of state).

    I'm just wondering about their involvement, because here in Massachusetts we didn't hear a peep from them when we were debating this initiative. So why now? Was this done specifically to align the Mormon church more closely with the religious right, so that those Republicans who backed Huckabee in the primaries will look less suspiciously on Mitt in 2012?

    "I can't come to bed yet! Someone is WRONG on the Internet!" - XKCD

    by SingularExistence on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 03:41:43 PM PST

  •  Two words: Inland areas (4+ / 0-)

    No on 8 folks really did not comprehend the level of support for prop 8 in the inland areas and to be quite frank they did not do sufficient level of organizing in the coastal areas of the state, combine that with a complete failure to rebut the 8 protects kids in schools bs for MONTHS on tv and radio and you have a receipe for what happened.  Bottom line, people took CA for granted until it was too late and the flurry of ads and spots by No on 8 folks came just too late to stop the momentum that had been building through the summer.

    •  Inland Empire (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BachFan, ElizabethRegina1558

      As a volunteer for the No on 8 campaign in the Inland Empire, we were told that they had no intention of having phonebanking in the Inland Empire until there was such a demand for it.  So, we started in October.  On top of this, we were all instructed not to mention the words "constitution," "judges," "civil rights issue," "kids," or any of the Yes on Prop 8 lies unless the person we were talking to specifically brought them up.

      There seemed to be a real reluctance to tailor the message to the IE as well, mentioning newpaper endorsements from outside the IE even though the Press-Enterprise in Riverside had also said No on 8.  Though the volunteers were all wonderful, there was a distinct feeling of frustration throughout for all of us.

  •  California - the state where you can amend the (4+ / 0-)

    constitution more easily than pass the budget.  Sheesh.  

  •  Demographics and percentages (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Heart of the Rockies

    I'm not making excuses for anyone or any group.  I understand that the percentages of the different groups for prop h8 varies widely, which is why there's such an outrage.  However, since the black population is generally smaller, I'm curious about the total individual votes per group, not percentages.  For instance, 53% of 1000 is 530 and 70% of 500 is 350.  I think this would 1) put things in perspective 2) help organizers figure out where to educate.* Of course, a great deal of education and information regarding the prop is needed in the black community, but let's not forget hundreds of thousands/millions of other voters as well.

    *Can we not clear up the legalese?  I may not have known how to vote on some of our propositions here in Florida if not for a cheat sheet created by the Democratic party.  Unfortunately, not everyone had access to or used it.

    Before Kos(-5.88,-4.97) With Kos (-7.58,-5.23) And still evolving. Thank you ;)

    by firendezyre4change on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:16:23 PM PST

  •  Progressives alseep at the wheel on Prop 8 (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lexicon, Sychotic1, lazybum, mellowwild

    Slim has it right:  we never saw it coming and the Prop 8 lobby got the drop on us.

  •  How straights can help (0+ / 0-)

    Pull all wedding business from California.  Receptions, the catering, hotels, wedding planners, florists, limos, churches, and honeymoons.  The whole bit.  Either we all can get married there, or no one can.

    When facism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross -- Sinclair Lewis

    by TKwow on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:39:34 PM PST

  •  United we stand, divided we fall (4+ / 0-)

    in two short days...a Republican scheme is causing those who worked so hard together for over 2 years have decided to form a circular firing squad...

    are u prepared to give all of that up in anger...or are you willing to fight...

    change does not come easily...this will be much easier if this coalition works together...

    one would think that after our achievement on Tuesday we would learn that turning against one another is not exactly a path to victory...

    Hope Won!!!! Yes We Can!!!

    by justmy2 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 04:40:07 PM PST

  •  Thanks, Icebergslim... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mellowwild

    It's been tough signing on here and there are a few pissed-off folks (rightly so for the passing of Proposition 8) been blaming and bashing the black community.

    Proposition 8 is WRONG! However, there were other Californians who voted for it as well.

    You don't have to be a man to fight for freedom. All you have to be is an intelligent human being. ~Malcolm X

    by Queenie68 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:07:23 PM PST

  •  OMG! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Heart of the Rockies

    Look, it's not my rights that are being trampled upon, so nobody should give a damn what I think.  But here's what I think.  The people of California narrowly reversed a social gain that was not even on the table a few years ago.  That reversal puts us back, well, a few years.  That's the most common thing in the world in politics, including when it comes to social policy. You really do win some and lose some.

    People who think progress is linear ought to study history and politics more thoroughly.

    -5.38/-3.74 I've suffered for my country. Now it's your turn! --John McCain with apologies to Monty Python's "Protest Song"

    by Rich in PA on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:07:26 PM PST

  •  This may be taken the wrong way (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lexicon, BachFan, lollydee, thebluecrayon

    I will start by saying that I am a minority.

    Is it also possible that the number of first time voters among AA's were higher than ever? If so, is it also possible that they didn't understand what the "Yes" vote meant? Especially if many of us agree that not enough was done to get the word out? I'm not saying they were all ignorant, or that they a lot of voters knew exactly what they were voting against. We do have our holy roller AA communities. I'm just saying that its possible.

    But I guess it all goes back to the campaign's organization as well.

    Playing Sam Cooke's " A Change is Gonna Come" on a loop until January 20, 2009.

    by kishadawn on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:13:12 PM PST

  •  agree, but let's be honest (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    left turn, mellowwild

    no other ethnic group came anywhere near the "yes" vote as African Americans . not even close. Don't gloss over that in an effort to cool down tempers .
    That 70% means something.
    and even if it wasn't enough to ultimately sway the vote, it's a symptom of a bigger issue.
    The mainstream orgs have been dominated by very wealthy gay white men , for the most part .
    There has been little or no outreach to communities of color from the LGBTQ community.
    From what I can tell, most African Americans do not see our struggle as equitable to theirs .
    And perhaps it's time we stopped pretending that their history has set out our future path.
    We may have to take a different tack.
    We need to help elevate LGBTQ voices of color from blogs tucked away in the net to mainstream media outlets .
    We need to employ people of faith and religion to go to the churches and speak people in the language of faith .
    We need to move away from the idea that all gay people are wealthy and can afford the HRC dinners and all that.
    We need orgs that practice what they preach ; equality for ALL.
    We can't change the defensive hyper-masculinity and machismo in some areas of AA culture , but we can at least go to them and make a case.
    It's so striking how much this reminds me of '04. When I  heard Barack speak at the convention about "no red states , no blue states" , it turned me off. The first thing I said to my husband was "fuck all that! Fuck the south! Fuck anyone who'd vote for Bush!" I was so angry that the idea of reconciliation , the concept of the 50 state strategy just pissed me off. I wanted someone to blame. As time passed, though, I began to realize that Dean was right; you might not win it all, but you won't even get a vote if you don't show up.
    That's the tack we need to take with the AA community and GLBTQ rights. So maybe we don't convince everyone, but maybe we knock that number down to 50% or less.

    "We've got a world to save. Don't confuse me with details." - Captain America

    by dantrotheplanetman on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:15:35 PM PST

    •  That 70% is bogus! n/t (0+ / 0-)

      You don't have to be a man to fight for freedom. All you have to be is an intelligent human being. ~Malcolm X

      by Queenie68 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:21:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  CNN "African American 10%=70% yes 30% no (0+ / 0-)

        "We've got a world to save. Don't confuse me with details." - Captain America

        by dantrotheplanetman on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 05:24:30 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Exit Polls are Perfect! (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lexicon, lazybum, nycjoc, Pecola, mellowwild

          Or at least that's the current mantra. Funny...going into this election, all I kept hearing from Nov. 1st on was "Don't trust exit polls" and "Exit polls are very misleading." That was echoed on Dailykos and elsewhere. And we got a host of reasonable explanations on how such exit polls can be flawed. But one exit poll comes out saying 7 in 10 blacks in CA voted for Prop 8, and quicker than you can say "willie horton," every friendly white liberal is suddenly screaming "j'accuse! j'accuse!" at not only black Californians but (seemingly) all of black America. Using historically familiar racial terminology, blacks are called "ungrateful" (as if voting for Barack Obama was done out of the goodness of white hearts as some collective gift, and not for the good of the country), been compared to the klan and nazis and some have gone into full throttle racism---hurling the "n" word even. Wow. Talk about your "smiling foxes." We don't even get the frackin' benefit of the doubt huh? The exit polls have spoken--end of story. Like a Negro in 1908 near a dead white woman, no need to look further into the matter, no need for a trial, a few investigators weigh the matter--everybody just go get a rope.

          Can the exit polling be correct? Sure. Is there homophobia in the black community? You betcha. But it's just so very telling how--save for one post by a black gay female that was often shouted down--no one has bothered to even seriously and thoroughly question or dispute the pollings validity. I guess despite all the HOPE, some things never CHANGE.

          Why don't we impeach him [Bush] and elect Obama?-Common, 2004

          by sincere1906 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 06:02:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Read This - (0+ / 0-)

            http://www.latimes.com/...

            I've never seen bigotry so well expressed.

            •  What bigotry in the article are you (0+ / 0-)

              referring to?  Could it be these points she made about the continued racism and bigotry towards blacks?:

              but as a black lesbian, let me tell you: There are still too many inequalities that exist as it relates to my race for that to ever be the case. Ever heard of "driving while black"? Ever looked at the difference between the dropout rates for blacks and for whites? Or test scores? Or wages? Or rates of incarceration?

              •  Yes, Indeed - (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Alec82

                Even after the passage of Prop 8 - everything is ALWAYS about blacks.  I have never denied - in fact I have actively opposed racial profiling - but don't you think that - just for one moment - we could look at issues facing GLBTI people, yes, some of whom are people of color?  From a Queer perspective?  Does everything have to be turned into an issue of race?

                Why didn't you continue on with the quote??

                Maybe white gays could afford to be singularly focused, raising millions of dollars to fight for the luxury of same-sex marriage. But blacks were walking the streets of the projects and reaching out to small businesses, gang members, convicted felons and the spectrum of an entire community to ensure that we all were able to vote.

                Second is the issue of civil rights. White gays often wonder aloud why blacks, of all people, won't support their civil rights. There is a real misunderstanding by the white gay community about the term. Proponents of gay marriage fling it around as if it is a one-size-fits-all catchphrase for issues of fairness.

                My, I'm so glad the author stereotypes white gays as wealthy and basking in luxury while po' black folks are just struggling to get by.  And, oh yes, gay civil rights aren't REAL civil rights.  We've heard that one often enough.

                Never mind.
                It's truly useless.

                •  You're right it is useless... so why even (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  lazybum, mellowwild

                  have a discussion?  I'm fine as a black woman - who by the way, has TWO strikes against me that are visible and unavoidable.  This issue never had to be about blacks... who was it that brought up the issue of blacks?  And with what type of tone?  

                  For those of us who voted against the proposition and gave money we might have given to another cause, this has been very, very offensive.  But I think you know as well as I do who is perpetrating all of this diviseness and it just might work.  It doesn't matter to me anymore, where as just 24 hours ago it did... but people like you and your rhetoric that continue to bring blacks into the issue have caused a change.  Well, that's what we were all hoping for with an Obama election, right?  Just maybe we're going to get a change we didn't want or expect.  And if all you freepers and PUMAs think this is going to make your chances any better in 2012... I think you should start looking for another group besides the black community to toe your line.  That includes the black gay and lesbian community as well:

                  Randy Boyd's Blocks

                  Quite visible, however, is the blatant prejudice of 85% of all gay men, regardless of race. Thanks to the digital world, that hatred is preserved in countless online profiles that reveal a truth many black men have suspected for decades: most gay men, regardless of race, are racists against blacks. Log on and behold the evidence: the infinite variations of phrases like WHITES ONLY, WHITES AND LATINS ONLY, NO BLACKS, NO ASIANS—it's all there for anyone to witness, quantify and study. The river of hatred runs deep. De facto segregation is alive and well in the hearts and minds of many a gay man.

                  Good luck with your efforts.

                  •  Yeah, Well - (0+ / 0-)

                    I guess everybody is a racist in your eyes.

                    After a lifetime of working for civil rights for African Americans - from segregation to voting rights to affirmative action to education to racial profiling - I don't give a damn any more.

                    (Nota Bene - This doesn't mean I will do things like defend racial profiling, it simply means that my desire to do anything about it has dropped to near zero.)

                    When African Americans preachers all over the country preach hate - including offing gay people - and, not only are they not vilified in the African American community, but are actually uplifted - then, yes, I get a little bit pissed off when the subject of African American homophobia comes up and I get accused of being a racist.

                    "I want to say, first of all, be careful how you fool with the church. You mess around with the church, something stirs up inside of me! You be careful because the church has surviving power. My friends, you know this and know this well. Don’t fool with the church because the church has buried many a critic, and all the critics that we have not buried, we’re making funeral arrangements for them!"

                    Herbert Lusk II, Philadelphia, PA
                    Greater Exodus Baptist Church
                    http://www.actupny.org/...

                    "If you gon’ do it the way you wanna do it the blood sacrifice Christ made for you no longer remains. If the blood covenant cannot be walked out by you, then the sacrifice of the cross is null and void for you and I (speaking for God) am personally coming after you to take you out. Why? Because God is after Himself."

                    Eddie L. Long, Atlanta, GA
                    New Birth Missionary Baptist Church
                    http://www.operationrebirth.com/...

                    "Could it be that the Antichrist himself may be homosexual?  I believe it’s from the pit of hell itself that this movement is inspired, that it has a satanic anointing.  The civil rights movement was inspired and given by the Holy Spirit, birthed in the church and bathed in prayer.... But the gay rights movement, I believe, was birthed and inspired by the Antichrist."

                    Dwight McKissic, Arlington, TX
                    Cornerstone Baptist Church
                    http://www.au.org/...

                    You know what these motherfuckers are sayin'?
                    They're saying "Kill the fags!"
                    AND I AM THE FUCKING RACIST??????

                    Yeah, I know that some African Americans opposed Prop 8 - but far too few.  And the language about gays used by African Americans interviewed by the press, albeit anecdotal, would be beyond the pale if applied to Blacks of Jews.  And in this diary, the diarist stated that she had mentioned black homophobia in her comments.  Her comments.  That tells you how seriously she took non-stop death threats against Queer people.

                    Here African Americans have had their greatest political victory alongside the greatest political defeat for GLBTI people.  It would have been nice had progressive black bloggers held their tongues and pens for 24 hours when the gay community was informed that African Americans voted 70% in favor of Prop 8 - but instead the "Racism!" banner was hoisted immediately.

                    So, please, tell me that the gay-hate spewed from the pulpits is just a little minor thing that is best left unmentioned - that it will go away if we just sweep it under the rug - even though the preachers listed above have megachurches whose congregations - numbering in the thousands - applaud the above statements.

                    Tell me there isn't a problem.

                    PS - Your quote is totally unsourced in the original - just the opinion of one blogger.  Pew, on the other hand, has polls of views in 2006 that were conducted under rigorous methodology.  There are plenty of other polls that show similar numbers.
                    http://people-press.org/...

                    •  No, not everyone in my eyes (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      lazybum

                      is a racist.  But clearly in your eyes every African American 'black' is homophobic.  Deal with the consequences of the division you cause, just as the black community has had to do since they were brought to this country as slaves and continue to do.  I'm sure you will do just fine like we blacks do.

                      Good luck with your efforts.

                      •  You Still - (0+ / 0-)

                        Cannot address the vile hated of certain preachers.
                        I guess they can do no wrong in your eyes.

                        I have stated here and elsewhere that not all blacks are homophobic - -

                        Yeah, I know that some African Americans opposed Prop 8 - but far too few.

                        Granted, it was said bitterly - but I am bitter.

                        I'll quote MLK again:

                        I have heard numerous southern religious leaders admonish their worshipers to comply with a desegregation decision because it is the law, but I have longed to hear white ministers declare: "Follow this decree because integration is morally right and because the Negro is your brother." In the midst of blatant injustices inflicted upon the Negro, I have watched white churchmen stand on the sideline and mouth pious irrelevancies and sanctimonious trivialities.

                        Yet, in the cases I mention above - the language of so-called ministers is far worse than sidestepping or lukewarm support - it is a call for violence against GLBTI people.  And still most in the African American community withhold criticism.

                        Simply voting against Prop 8 isn't enough.  As a person who has demanded full equality in all its forms for African Americans, I expect the same from African American who call themselves my allies.

                        •  Well, I'm bitter NOW too... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          lazybum

                          and I imagine a lot of other African American blacks are.  From what has occurred, I don't think these groups were ever allies and probably can never be.  Let's leave it at that and move on.

                          •  As So Many Others - (0+ / 0-)

                            I see that you are utterly unable to condemn the genocidal homophobia coming from certain - not all by any means - African American pulpits.  I dare you to find one GLBTI group that publicly advocates the elimination of African Americans.

                            But no.
                            There can be no apologies.
                            Even in the week of the greatest political victory for African Americans, only one AA blogger has criticized black homophobia.

                            Silence = Death.
                            These preachers are calling for our deaths.
                            And you are silent.

                            Shame on you.

                          •  Shame on me? (0+ / 0-)

                            No... shame on you for the diviseness your rhetoric has caused. Now live and deal with it just as African American blacks have had to do since coming here as slaves.

                          •  You Still - (0+ / 0-)

                            Cannot say one word against Rev. Eddie Long -
                            Can you?

                            It's all my fault.
                            Everything that has every happened.

                            No, it's your absolutely poisonous view.
                            Even in the midst of the greatest political victory for African Americans in the history of the United States, you cannot bring yourself to show one iota of graciousness and understanding.

                          •  You know what? I think (0+ / 0-)

                            you are nuts.  Better you are not a part of the African American black community.  Obama's victory is not exclusively for African Americans - it's for the country... which consists of many races and ethnicities.  Furthermore, Obama is just as much white as he is black -- but there are some (with racist views) who cannot accept that his mother was white and only look to the color of his skin.  I understand your limited mindset and I reject and abhor it.

                          •  Hmmm - (0+ / 0-)

                            Has Limbaugh called for the extermination of black people?

                            The fact that you cannot denounce a genocidal homophobe shows the depth and breadth of your commitment to GLBRI rights.

                            http://newblackman.blogspot.com/...

                          •  I Truly Fucking Can't Believe It - (0+ / 0-)

                            Here someone calls for the extermination of gay people -
                            And in 10 posts, you cannot disavow him.

                            That, alone, speaks volumes.

                          •  It's because I think you are probably (0+ / 0-)

                            a closet freeper and I don't want to extend the time or effort.  

                          •  Let's See - (0+ / 0-)

                            My UID is 35475 -
                            Your UID is 181670.

                            I have a huge list of diaries and comments.
                            You have no diaries and 3 days of comments.

                            And you call me a freeper.
                            Yeah. Right.

                          •  Okay... so you may not be a freeper (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            johnnygunn

                            but posting ludicrous sermons by extreme Right-Wing preachers makes it very suspicious.  Why would any black liberal Democrat identify with them, when their ideology is in complete opposition to that of ours?  This is and has been my point - you cannot lump all blacks together.  Just because they happen to be black, they do not preach to or speak for liberal blacks.  Further more, I could probably count on both hands the number of times I've attended church... so I'm not familiar with these or many other preachers.  The one's you used as examples are not representative of blacks in California - at least I hope.  If they are, then there is a compounded effect by them being conservative Republicans, not liberal Democrats and as you should well know, political ideology was the most prevalent indicator of who voted for the passage of Proposition 8.

                            And yes, I do DENOUNCE their anti-gay bigotry, just as I do for all others who are anti-gay bigots and harbor other bigotries such as racism.  Preachers can be snakes and those you used as examples are certainly snakes - but they do NOT represent me or any other black liberal Democrat.

                          •  And I - (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Pecola

                            Will continue to fight racism - in all its forms.

                        •  You are hurt... (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          johnnygunn, nycjoc, Pecola

                          and while I understand your pain, please step back for a moment and look at the situation wholistically.

                          Black people are not a monolith. There are socially conservative black folk, progressive black folk and black folk who just don't give a damn (and many, many more subgroups).

                          When the accusations began flying, progressive queers were not making any distinctions between the groups they were targeting with their blame. "Blacks did it" was the running commentary of the day.

                          Now that the distinctions have been made and many now know that socially conservative blacks are yes, conservative switching the blame to black progressives who knew that black conservatives were homophobic is still yet another circular argument.

                          Homophobia in the black community has been and continues to be fought by black progressives on the front lines. It is shocking to some white progressives that homophobia is there because white progressives have not, for the most part, made it an issue to fight black homophobia in the black community until now... when it affects them.

                          Many of us, as black GLBTs and progressives were just waiting for you guys to be our true allies.

                          When the blame stops, the healing can begin.

                          •  Tell Me, MW - (0+ / 0-)

                            Why do the preachers quoted above get a free pass?

                            Not just from the black community, but from the white community, as well.  What would happen if a preacher - black or white - called for the extermination of Jews, African Americans, even Muslims?  We see what has happened to Hagee and Farrakhan.  They are pariahs.  But, it seems, that preachers - many African American - can speak publicly about eliminating Queer people and it is largely ignored - except in a few left-wing and Queer blogs. (White homophobic preachers tend to use the "Love the sinner, hate the sin." line - which is just as obscene.)

                            Yep, I'm angry.  I've spent my whole life fighting for civil rights for African Americans.  Not just paper rights, but fundamental rights of income, education, and most importantly, dignity.  I've invested huge amounts of time, energy, and money.  And then when there is an opportunity for reciprocation, I'm called a racist for being profoundly disappointed - not as much in the 70% +/- of the AA community who voted for Prop 8 - but in my so-called AA progressive allies who scream "Racism!", "Chill the fuck out!",  and "Get over it!"

                            I was on the wrong side of the racial divide in Alabama in the 1960s.  A white kid advocating civil rights.  And, trust me, the hostility towards whites who challenged the racial divide was pretty damn serious.  Ask Michael Schwerner, Andrew Goodman, James Reeb, or Viola Liuzzo if you have any questions about that.

                            Martin Luther King, Jr.'s "Letter from Birmingham Jail" is not a polemic directed at the segregationists, it is a challenge to his supposed allies in the white community to demonstrate a full measure of their support.  And, yet, when GLBTI people on this website and others questioned the level of support for equal rights for gay people in the African American community - the blowback was immediate and furious.  "What racism!"

                            I do not envy the position of people who are black and gay.  They face racism in the GLBTI community and homophobia in the black community.  And everything in between.  But that still will not preclude me from asking why there has not been a concerted calling-out of violently homophobic ministers - even while racism persists in the gay community.

                            I can state, unequivocally, that as a white person fighting for civil rights I saw - and still see - my role as speaking out in predominantly white contexts when prejudice and covert racism arises.  I stood up against Governor Hunt demanding the release of the Wilmington 10.  Where are my African American allies standing up against Bishop Eddie Long calling him a genocidal homophobe?

                            I am waiting.

                          •  The black experience in America... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            nycjoc

                            is why you met resistance when the initial vitriol was directed at ALL black people. It was a slam and an insult to all of us.

                            For instance, the cases we have all heard of by now of some white gays calling some black folk niggers... that was lashing out in anger and was counter productive.

                            I understand that when you are in grief, it is hard to be rational, but those words stung.

                            When the focus became less about black folk in general and more about socially conservative blacks, no apologies were given for first blaming ALL black people, instead the progressive black folks who HAVE fought black homophobia were accused of giving homophobic black folk a pass. That is simply untrue.

                            Dialogue was taken off of the table and replaced with accusations. You cannot get anywhere if you do that.

                            Black progressives are more than willing to discuss the  homophobia in black socially conservative circles, in hopes of finding solutions, with those who choose to dialogue with respect and not blame and accuse.

                            You cannot allow your pain to cloud your judgment or you won't get anywhere and your anger will eat you alive & potentially break the alliances you do have.

                          •  Seek apologizes from individual posters (0+ / 0-)

                            Gays aren't seeking apologizes from blacks as a group.  No one gets group apologizes.  That simple.

                            I have seen two or three comments that were heinous, but it was those same two or three comments that were consistently referenced as an indicia of the "problem."  Well, two or three comments means two or three posters, not a problem.

                            "We're half awake in a fake empire."

                            by Alec82 on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 04:56:35 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So what are you doing personally... (0+ / 0-)

                            for inclusion, understanding and alliance building?

                          •  er, apologies that is....that's what i get for... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...staying up late.

                            Um, I do most of my volunteer work with the ACLU, which does work across the board.  I'll continue down that path.  I don't usually work with single issue organizations.  That's kind of the issue.  What am I doing personally? Well...

                            I'll continue working in the field of criminal defense.  

                            I'll continue working on the issues that matter to me most.

                            That about sums it up.  If another one of these campaigns comes along in MI, I'll work on the just side.  

                            Moreover, I think, honestly, judging from some of the comments that I've read here about an inability to see through my "privilege" or to give due credence to "intersectionality," perhaps "white" gays should not be involved in this fight except as bystanders.  But then when a black gay man posts diaries about the same issue, he's not very well-received either.  

                            This isn't directed at you, but I have been very disappointed by a lot of what I have seen on this site.  Very.  

                            "We're half awake in a fake empire."

                            by Alec82 on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 05:21:46 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  As have I... (0+ / 0-)

                            I think the disappointment stretches far and wide.

                            sigh

                            I'm sure that you're doing good work with the ACLU. Good on you.

                          •  You're right, black people are not a monolith (0+ / 0-)

                            So why the constant qualifier in so many of the comments? "White" gays this, "white" gays that.  Are white gays monolithic?

                            White liberals were well aware that there was homophobia in the black community.  The lopsided results of the exit polls were still surprising because those were not the results tracked in 2004 by CNN.  

                            No one gets to use the phrase "true allies" in this dialogue, or perhaps more appropriately at this stage, debate, without being called out, and rightly so.  No one gets to say that black voters can be blamed for proposition 8, either.

                            What has amazed many of us is the unbelievable defensiveness.  The racist comments have been very, very isolated, but there is a very strong aversion to self-reflection on the part of many.  And I don't just mean black posters.  Frankly, some of the most absurd comments have come from white liberals, gay and straight.  

                            "We're half awake in a fake empire."

                            by Alec82 on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 04:53:31 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  If white liberals were aware of homophobia... (0+ / 0-)

                            in the black community, then why wasn't there more outreach in those communities way before Prop 8?

                            Why become so disappointed after the fact that socially conservative blacks disapproved and what will be done to rectify the situation, besides blame?

                            My post was about finding solutions, not continuing this battle. Many black folks are simply frustrated with it all because some white gay folks cannot step outside of their pain to see the whole picture, not just the part that affects them personally.

                          •  What is the whole picture, though? (0+ / 0-)

                            The whole picture includes lopsided election returns on prop 8, right?

                            Now, as for why No on 8 didn't do more outreach, I don't know, I wasn't directing them.  Perhaps they had internal polling indicating that it was something of a lost cause given the time frame.  Remember, this was not a campaign they had a great deal of time to prepare for.  The decision came down in June.

                            Again, though, I think you avoid the issue.  People posted at cross purposes because there was hostility to the mere discussion of the polling.  

                            "We're half awake in a fake empire."

                            by Alec82 on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 05:15:38 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Some people don't believe the poll is accurate... (0+ / 0-)

                            again, not a monolith.

                            Some believe, as some diaries here suggested, that much should not have been made of exit polls.

                            Yes the whole picture includes looking at the election results of Prop 8, I did not suggest otherwise.

                            The No on Prop 8 folks could very well have decided that socially conservative black folk were a lost cause, if that were the case, I wish that they would have let it leak so that black progressives would have know that the onslaught was approaching.

                            I'm sure that we've all learned a thing or two about people, after it's all said and done.

                            You have every right to your opinion... I won't debate that...
                            I hope that some time in the near future you have your full civil rights restored, I'll leave it at that.

                          •  The poll may not be accurate (0+ / 0-)

                            But that is all we have to go on, apart from the 2004 CNN exit polls, which paint a very different picture.  But those who object to this poll's accuracy don't have standing to bring in the other exit polls.  I am skeptical of this poll largely because of the 2004 exit polling.  

                            Again, I think the issue is that there is a basic objection to the inquiry because some feel it is suggestive of blame.  

                            As far as civil rights being restored, I'm not in CA any more, just moved back to MI.  And believe me, I was way more pissed off about what happened here in 2004 than I am about what happened in CA on Tuesday.  This isn't really as personal for me as it is for others.
                             

                            "We're half awake in a fake empire."

                            by Alec82 on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 05:42:58 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  You must be kidding me? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    johnnygunn

                    Log on and behold the evidence: the infinite variations of phrases like WHITES ONLY, WHITES AND LATINS ONLY, NO BLACKS, NO ASIANS—it's all there for anyone to witness, quantify and study.

                    Um, those guys are looking for hookups.  I'm not sure I'm willing to judge sexual tastes with quite the same perspective as I would judge, say, exit polling or simple polling on affirmative action (and even then, that is a can of worms).  

                    Additionally, that made up figure of "85%" of all gay men is laughable.  One, there's no way in hell that is the case just from a cursory glance at the personals, which often include fetishization on the basis of race (which is equally if not more offensive) and two, there's no method of quantifying the total percentage of the gay population with any degree of certainty, to say nothing of their preference, or lack thereof, for men of color.

                    Really....wow. I can't believe this was recommended.  How ridiculous.

                    "We're half awake in a fake empire."

                    by Alec82 on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 05:35:59 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Alec... I know Randy and he (0+ / 0-)

                      is looking for much more than a hookup.  But I will agree with you on the figures he quotes - yet, there could be a way to quantify preferences.  Our perspectives are influenced by personal experiences and he writes a lot about his personal experiences.  Though there might not be a direct correlation with sexual tastes, indirectly there very well could be.  

                      •  I'm not stating that he's looking for a hookup... (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Pecola

                        ...I'm saying that the personals he refers to are postings by men who are.  Honestly, I think that fetishization of men of color as sexual objects is a bigger issue, not rejection of them.  

                        "We're half awake in a fake empire."

                        by Alec82 on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 12:01:28 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

            •  Jasmyne Cannick is crazy (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              johnnygunn

              I would NOT use her as representative of anything...at all. I'm quite serious.  I've participated on her blog and she's just....not altogether with it.

              "We're half awake in a fake empire."

              by Alec82 on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 05:07:26 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  The 70% figure is bogus. Here's why. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lexicon, lazybum, Pecola, mellowwild

          Check out the figure for black men: N/A

          Check out the figure for vote by age and race, black all ages: N/A

          How can they arrive at a 70% African-American vote when the all of the black subgroups EXCEPT black women show N/A?

          It's a bullshit poll and people who use it to blame others are simply wrong.

          We're all Husseins now.

          by edg on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 06:10:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  To blame one community, (7+ / 0-)

      instead of trying to explain what is at stake, you will never get anything passed.  Again, I also blame how this legislation was presented in California, it was totally confusing.  To get anything passed must be by folks understanding what is at stake, not all AAs feel that way, many do not, but outreach in California is a must for this to be reversed, especially at the ballot box.

      •  Deaf Ears... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lexicon, FrigginBoobs, Pecola, mellowwild

        Iceberg I think you're speaking to the deaf. Don't know if many non-black Kossacks venture past this bubble into much of the black blogosphere or black forums. Most probably don't have access to the numerous small private black listservs/communities. On a few of the latter I belong to, on first hearing of Prop 8 passage--the overwhelming majority people were outraged. However, by day two, as the finger pointing and some of the racist comments began to drift over (yes folks, crossposting happens), alot of the empathy began to dry up, with black gay members finding themselves in an awkward position. Newsflash--white men hurling racial slights aren't seen as gay or straight, just WHITE. On more than a few black forums I see a backlash to the backlash forming--hardening the rhetoric of the actual homophobes, and turning others ambivalent. Some who days before were adamantly against Prop 8, now are saying they simply won't get involved. As a black hetero male, the majority of close gay friends (and family) I have are black. And that makes me stay up with this issue. Hopefully for many blacks turned off by the past few days, it'll be the same. But these Log Cabin types and their sympathizers, aren't helping in the least.

        Why don't we impeach him [Bush] and elect Obama?-Common, 2004

        by sincere1906 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 06:26:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well stated. I have to think (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lexicon, mellowwild

          that now a lot of blacks will have 'Deaf Ears' too.  None of this was necessary and yet there will be inevitable consequences.  I think an important point to take away from this (that unfortunately many blacks will continue to miss) - is that race still matters in this society.

        •  Ooo, I think it's cold in here... :o) (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          icebergslim

          ..and thank you for sharing what's going on with us on our other blogs and site.

          (apologies if I was wrong about the frigidity)

          You can hate me now, but I won't stop now.

          by Lexicon on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:13:50 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  That's what I've been trying to tell people here. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dantrotheplanetman, mellowwild

      This issue must be reframed if the goal is getting equal protection under the law.

  •  End of Day. Repent. Repent. Repent. (0+ / 0-)

    Whatever......

    Droogie is as Droogie does....

    by vets74 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 06:04:20 PM PST

  •  what happened was the same as always.... (0+ / 0-)

    RIGHT WING TALK RADIO!!!

    coordinated uncontested repetition to an audience as numerous as that that voted for obama. the reason why we are in this bush disaster in the first place.

    ignoring the talk radio monopoly continues to be the biggest political blunder in decades

    by certainot on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 06:20:18 PM PST

  •  Knowing it was an amendment to the Constitution.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    icebergslim

    Going to the bigger argument presented in this diary - I truly feel that Prop 8 was NOT organized against well at all - and not early enough. Look - most of us 'straight' progressives were 120% concentrated on trying to get Obama elected - as well as more senators & congresspeople (in and around our regular worlds). I can honestly say that in the middle of being obsessed with what I thought was all things political for 12 months - it wasn't until the last couple weeks that it even sunk in that this wasn't just your typical Calif. proposition - but was an actual amendment to our Constitution that only needed a majority vote to become valid. That's when I diverted some of our money specifically to the no on 8 campaign.Way too late to present the more reasonable (do we really want to take away rights from our Constitution) arguments & ads. And only after the fact are we learning how we 'might' be able to fight against that reality. We do need to get this changes - but we also need to stop attacking all the folks who voted for it. We need to educate the majority of them and forget about the hard-core.

  •  Great diary, thanks (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pam from Calif

    The most important failure was the lack of organization of those against the legislation to inform many Californians what was at stake

    YES!  This can't be stated enough.  For whatever reason:  lack of funds, a belief that there was no way Prop 8 would pass, or maybe just being blind-sided, the No on 8 campaign was a day late and a dollar short.  The most publicity I saw against Prop. 8 was Ellen Degeneres going on Jay Leno and talking about the need to defeat it.  Second most publicity was a commercial, made late in the season, that was narrated by Samuel Jackson.  

    It's a big setback, but I believe that most Californians and most Americans really do believe in equality for all.  And so the fight goes on.

  •  A great article at indybay (0+ / 0-)

    While the media casts blame on communities of color for the failure of civil rights for LGBT people, it is imperative that we struggle against the logic that tells us that struggles for LGBT civil rights and racial justice are separate, and that we examine our strategies for advancing LGBT civil rights and gay marriage and, in particular, look at places where LGBT communities have failed to align our struggles for civil rights with ongoing struggles for racial justice.

    http://www.indybay.org/...

    We are the ones we've been waiting for. -- Barack Obama

    by seeta08 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:41:20 PM PST

  •  Blame Gavin (0+ / 0-)

    That puff piece of a mayor was the basis of an ad that swung the polls by around 10 pts.  Instead of hanging out of sight, he goes ahead and officiates a wedding where a 1st grade class skips school to attend the reception.

    Why give the enemy juicy tidbits like this?  Self imposed wounds here....

  •  The best two cents I've heard (0+ / 0-)

    in a long time. Thanks ice for saying everything I agree with.

    *a hundred years from now, the future may be different because I was important in the life of a child*

    by bonesy on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:27:24 PM PST

  •  When we were protesting on the street and (0+ / 0-)

    someone stopped to ask what the "NO" meant.  A friend told me up to 10% of voters didn't understand a NO vote meant they did support the right to marry.

    Why can't we all just get along? - Rodney King

    by tlouise on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:18:57 PM PST

  •  To me, your 2¢ are worth at least a nickel. (0+ / 0-)

    "Hew out of the mountain of despair A Stone of Hope." -Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by Patch Adam on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:32:06 PM PST

  •  Segregation didn't end at the ballot box, did it? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mellowwild

    No: SCOTUS ended segregation.

    Prop 22 abolished gay marriage in 2000 with 61% of the vote, and the courts struck it down. If Prop 8 passes with 51% of the vote, the courts will strike it down. Prop 187 didn't stand either, and it was a hell of a lot more popular.

    --- "Remember: Darkness is a renewable resource." -- Ask A Ninja #83

    by opendna on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 12:46:06 AM PST

  •  Concurring In The Judgment Only (0+ / 0-)

    "African-Americans more than anyone in this country fully understand one's civil rights. "

    True, but isn't it also true that African Americans tend to be more socially conservative than other ethnic groups and whites?

    I suppose you can look at it as a paradox, I just see it as irony, but I don't see it as anything more than just an attempt to sell newspapers. So, while we're in agreement, I'm not assessing blame why Prop 8 was passed. If you want the truth, no matter how the people voted, the losing side was going to litigate it. I believe that Prop 8 will be struck down, among other reasons, it is not clear the California Constitution allows for referenda  to abridge civil rights. I believe it isn't.

    Consider Prop 187 in 1994 for a moment. The LA Weekly reported that among Latino voters, the polling was virtually 50-50. You might want to think about the similarities, if any, between Prop 8 and Obama, and Prop 187 and the traditional support of Dem candidates by Latinos in Southern California.

  •  I wrote a diary on Prop 8, Progressivism, and (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    claudew

    the black community here: Daily Kos Hypocrisy: Prop 8, Blacks, and Party Identity Politics

    Hope you have a chance to read it.

    President Barack Obama - #44

    by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 01:21:04 AM PST

  •  We Must Commend the KKK - (0+ / 0-)
    For the fine job they did bringing the nation's attention to Philadelphia, Mississippi.

    We must commend the outside influences of the LDS (Mormons) for getting their message across, by powerful and divisive television ads and direct mail pieces.
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