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I am both black and gay, and over the past few days I've seen and participated in the very heated discussion regarding Gays, Blacks, homophobia, and Prop 8.

On one side you have those who have resorted to calling black people ungrateful, niggers, and traitors.

On another side you have those who have said that any criticism of the black community is racism.

Yet another side of people have said that everyone else voted for Proposition 8, so it's not fair to focus on just black people.

And then you have the slice that I belong to and will speak to in this diary.

This is a long diary, and there have been many, but I hope you take the time to read it and not simply skip over this very important discussion.

In short, understanding the state of the black community vis a vis the black church is the first step to understanding how to deal with the problem.

Until progressives here at Daily Kos and everywhere else get past their squeamishness with talking about that particular thorn, nothing will ever change.

During the run up to election day, there were several diaries calling for the exposing of members of the mormon community for their support of Proposition 8. There were many cries of vitriol and disgust at mormons for their hatred and bigotry toward gays and lesbians.

Three of the "infamous" diaries to be recced were "California's Prop 8: keep the pressure on the Mormon church! (w/ UPDATE X 3)" and "How YOU can defeat Prop 8 and preserve marriage equality." by hekebolos which urged Kossacks to find out all of those who donated to and supported the LDS movement to ban gay marriage, and "Prop 8: Under Fire, Mormons Are Backing Off (A Bit)" by juls, which continued this meme.

By the number of tips and recs and "Hear Hear!!"-style comments, one could say that Kossacks were very much against those who would push for discrimination and bigotry toward gay people.

Until it was discovered that the other group pushing for Prop 8 as much as the mormons was the black community. By a 70-30 margin in California and a 71-29 margin in Florida, black voters approved the stripping of gay rights. 65-70% of blacks across the nation do not support equal rights for gays and lesbians.

Does this mean that without black support those rights-banning laws wouldn't have been passed? Of course not. The margins were too large and the black voting community not large enough to make the difference.

What is important, however, is the fact that a historically oppressed and downtrodden minority voted overwhelmingly to keep another minority oppressed and downtrodden.

The same standard can be applied to the Mormon church as well considering the mormons founded Utah due to religious discrimination against them by the US Government in the 19th century.

Yet while there was an enormous push by Kossacks to expose and take down the LDS Church for their transgressions against gays and lesbians, any discussion of the role blacks played in this fight is met with cries of racisim, defensiveness, and more racism.

Where was the push to protest outside black churches for their rampant pulpit homophobia, like this diary and this diary espoused? Or this diary that called on Kossacks to expose the lies pushed by the Mormon church? Why wasn't that energy directed at black churches?

Black churches which can be just as bad, if not worse, than Mormon churches in their spread and support of homophobia?

Is it because blacks are a pillar of the democratic coalition whereas mormons are not?

My honest opinion is yes. And that is why I believe that the Daily Kos community has been horrifically hypocritical on this subject. Add that political reality with the reality of the squeamishness of some to criticize the black community due to fears of being called a racist, and you have the environment that exists today where you get recced diaries such as this one by shannika and this one by icebergslim calling on everyone to have understanding, empathy, and moderation with respect to the anger and hurt directed toward the black community.

I ask again, where were those calls when it came to white evangelicals and mormons, both of whom happen to vote republican?

Those calls were non-existent here.

http://dissentingjustice.blogspot.co...

Although Obama opposes the California ballot initiative, Project Marriage, an organization that favors the measure, believes his candidacy could help its cause. The organization hopes that Obama will bring out enough black socially conservative and evangelical voters who, though Democrats, are pro-life, antigay, and committed to conservative religious values. Black religious conservatives, unlike white evangelicals, tend to vote for Democrats, due to the party's more liberal record on civil rights in modern U.S. history. But conservative organizations have successfully exploited social conservatism among blacks to advance discriminatory agendas, particularly in the area of gay rights. This has created some highly unusual political coalitions. One black minister from Chicago, for instance, boldly proclaimed that he would march with the Ku Klux Klan in order to protest the legalization of same-sex marriage (yes - this really happened).

Just like the FISA outrage that existed when it was the democrats pushing back against Bush in 2007, an outrage that turned to a SYFPH wave when it was Barack Obama and the democrats who decided that it was necessary to give retroactive immunity, something I diaried about as well, the Kossack community has been exceedingly hypocritical.

Or how about the reactions to the bailout bill once it became apparent that it was democrats who were going to drive this through? Yet another subject I wrote on which was, unfortunately, subject to yet another SYFPH wave of democratic lock-step politicking on this site.

Now all this said, I hope that you all do some introspection as to why you react the way you react when it comes to politics. I've certainly done it and that's one of the reasons why I've written this diary. Because I've been just as hypocritical in my reactions toward republicans while turning a blind eye to democrats.

No more. Unless this kind of ridiculous partisanship ends, nothing will push this discussion forward. The anti-gay sentiment in the white evangelical and mormon communities cannot be tolerated. And neither can the anti-gay sentiments in the black community.

All have to be called out for what they are. And nothing at all can stamp that reality out.

Until you understand the deep rooted homophobia in the black community and call it for what it is, you'll never get anywhere.

Last, but not least, please read the following links regarding the Black community and widespread homophobia. While many of you were shocked that 70-30 voted for Prop 8 in California, and 71-29 in Florida, I certainly was not. Here's some reading as to why that is.

Barack Obama and Reverend Wright: An Agnostic's Take - One of my diaries

While growing up, I realized that I was different than others around me. When the other boys were talking about the girls that were developing in front of their eyes, I was instead looking at them.

And it terrified me.

The Pentecostal denomination of the Christian faith is not one that is particularly forgiving when it comes to homosexuality. Neither is the black community at large.

I listened to the sermons of the man I looked up to, sermons that in many memorable cases demonized gay people. I listened with growing horror and self-loathing at my burgeoning feelings as I entered and progressed through puberty, hearing speech of "those people" who were destined for hell. "Those people" who should never be allowed near children. "Those people" who fornicated in filth and were no better than gutter trash.

In light of these sermons and my own readings of the Bible, as well as my strongly held belief that you cannot cherry pick your faith simply to fit the particulars of your individual life, that I walked away from Christianity.

How could I possibly reconcile my core being with my core beliefs? Which could I slough off to be in alignment with the other? Despite my burgeoning problems with the orthodoxy surrounding the nature of faith and the calls to accept it blindly and without question, it was truly my sexuality that finally pushed me to walk away. It was, in the end, the tipping point. I could either go insane as a closeted gay man in an anti-gay, anti-me faith, or I could walk away from my faith and answer the questions I had about it, regardless of sexuality.

And yet, despite the trauma of growing up gay in the black community, in the incendiary Pentecostal faith, could I curse the man who I saw as a father figure then, and hope would see me as an accomplished young man today? Who would look at the sum of my life and pronounce himself proud of me?

The "Down Low" Phenomenon and its implications

http://www.sfgate.com/...

http://www.blackstate.com/...

http://query.nytimes.com/...

Today, while there are black men who are openly gay, it seems that the majority of those having sex with men still lead secret lives, products of a black culture that deems masculinity and fatherhood as a black man's primary responsibility -- and homosexuality as a white man's perversion. And while Flex now offers baskets of condoms and lubricant, Wallace says that many of the club's patrons still don't use them.

Black Homophobia

I do know this, though: I’m done pretending that the handful of racist gay white men out there—and they’re out there, and I think they’re scum—are a bigger problem for African Americans, gay and straight, than the huge numbers of homophobic African Americans are for gay Americans, whatever their color.

Historically Black Homophobia

Having read and reviewed Horace Griffin's new book Their Own Receive Them Not: African American Lesbians And Gays in Black Churches, I basically concur with his premise that the vehement homophobia expressed by many Blacks stems from a the history of so many Black slaves being converted to Christianity by conservative denominations that stressed biblical literalism, strict Victorian sexual morality that was prevalent during the same period as American slavery, and a reaction against the stereotypes of Blacks as insatiable sexual savages. The Central State students, however, do not have the excuse that their ancestors had. Having a few centuries between them and slavery, and being at most a few steps away from information — or, to extend the metaphor, a few steps away from the fucking light switch in that darkened room you're now sitting in and choosing to keep darkened — makes choosing not reaching out for it and inexcusable act of willful intellectual and spiritual laziness.

.............

And no, by the way, I no longer give a shit about defending African Americans against the notion that they're more homophobic than whites, for the same reason I no longer give a shit about defending a Black politician like Harold Ford against the racist attack ads the Republicans are running against him. Because Harold Ford is no different than the racist Republican candidate running in Virginia, and the students at Central State University are no different than the Klan or a gang of marauding skinheads. I don't defend anyone who would turn around and leave me and mine twisting in the wind. I no longer care.

Proposition 8 vs Black Homophobia

As an African-American lesbian who has been in a loving relationship for over two decades, I have been made well aware of the black community's discomfort with things gay. Our long and courageous history in the forefront of the struggle for civil rights notwithstanding, the leadership of black America -- politicians, ministers, business leaders -- has not been as outspoken as it could be and should be on the issue of gay rights. Homophobia and traditional religious teachings play a role in our silence. But the roots of our discomfort, I think, go deeper. Sadly, some African-Americans believe that it is only we who should benefit from the gains achieved by the civil rights movement of the 1960s and 1970s. They fear that to allow the gay community to enter the doors of opportunity opened by our struggle, to permit gays and lesbians to share in the fruits of that movement, will diminish those benefits for the black community. Truth is, there is more than enough to go around.

Black vs. gay: As a black man, I am very disturbed by the rampant homophobia I see all around me — especially among my own people.

While thinking about the brutal attack, I recalled another news story in which a similar attack was made on a man thought to be gay. His abusers taunted him with shouts of "fag" and "queers should die."

When I read the description of these cowards, however, I was shocked.

They were black men.

I’m not saying that I’m so surprised that some blacks discriminate; rather, I’m saying that discrimination itself does not discriminate.

I never knew that I was being fed hate when I was young. I would over and over again hear my mom and some of my cousins talk about the "lesbian outcast" who shamed the family when she met and fell in love with her female companion.

At age 10, of course I did not know what a lesbian was, but after learning what that word meant, I asked my mom why she had talked so badly about Cousin Janice.

She simply said to me that the lifestyle she chose was not one of God-fearing people like us. She told me that Janice would burn in hell unless she begged for forgiveness.

Thinking back on that 12-year-old conversation with my mother, I now realize that she was feeding me hate. Hate was something that she said was a bad thing, but only according to whom you hate and for what reason.

More recently, I have been gay bashed and taunted by other blacks.

..........................

After meeting up with my friends later that night, we decided to walk up to Chelsea to the Kurfew party when we were heckled and tormented by a couple of ghetto boys in a black convertible. The words that were being used were nothing that we haven’t heard before, so we decided to ignore them and show them that we weren’t either afraid or ashamed of who we were. We continued on our way.

The saying "ignore them and they’d go away" was never more false than it was that night. Knowing that their words were bouncing off of us really annoyed the thugs and they decided to make us hear them.

At the next light, they pulled over and got out of the car. When we heard, "Get over here, fags," we began to run frantically.

Then we came upon a police officer. Feeling safe, we told the cop what had happened and that these guys were after us.

The cop looked at us and simply said "You guys are queers, you deserve it." After that, they walked away and disappeared into the evening night.

Faggots and Punks

"FAGGOT MOTHERFUCKER"
said a Black man on the corner of 129th and Fifth Avenue in Harlem to an effeminate gay Black man walking by. Most Black and Latino heterosexual men say they have called a homosexual "faggot" or "punk" at one time or another in their life, a new poll shows.

But the Black and Latino AIDS Coalition (BLAC) survey of 500 respondents said people of color are split over the legalization of same-sex marriages. Asked should same-sex marriages be legal, 37 percent of those polled said yes and 36 percent said no, while 18 percent aren't sure. Another 9 percent said they don't care.

A whopping 58 percent said God would not approve of the gay lifestyle. And 53 percent said they would not have a homosexual friend. Clearly, homophobia is alive and kickin' in the Black and Latino community. Rappers such as Ice Cube tell us in their records, "Real niggas ain't faggots." Many Black and Latino ministers with bible raised high, proclaim homosexuality "a sin before God." And in a TV interview with Evans and Novaks in March 1997, Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan made it clear he regarded homosexuality an "unnatural act," and would discourage the practice whenever and wherever he could.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson, Ph.D., said "[T]his will only change when more Black leaders understand that when you scratch a homophobe underneath, you'll invariably find a racist."Unless we address the issue of homophobia in minority communities, we can't begin to stop the rise of AIDS. We must teach people of color that HIV affects and infects people regardless of their sexual orientation, race, or beliefs."

What does the poll finding mean to Black and Latino heterosexuals struggling to end the AIDS epidemic in minority communities? First, the rise of AIDS among Black and Latino heterosexuals is indirectly a result of homophobia in minority communities where AIDS is still seen as a gay disease.

Black Homophobia

The most lethal homophobia is arising out of the African Anglican churches and any TV viewer who saw the interview with the Nigerian Archbishop frothing and raving against homosexuality will know his intention is to seek our extermination. The following articles published confirm our fears.

Homophobia in the Black community

An overwhelming number of Blacks suffer from homophobia - a fear of homosexuals. Homophobia, as in other phobias, is rooted in the fear of the unknown. People generally fear something which escapes their understanding or which they lack sufficient information to adequately judge a situation. The over-abundance of erroneous information on homosexuality only serves to further confuse and complicate the issue.

The influence of the Black Church, the importance of masculinity and the role of the family appear to be the underlying causes of homophobia in the Black community. These issues deserve further exploration.

First, there is the issue concerning the influence of the Black Church. A majority of Black ministers view homosexuality as going against the teachings of the Bible and immoral.

Obama Addresses Homophobia, Anti-Semitism and Xenophobia Among Black Americans

And yet, if we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that none of our hands are entirely clean. If we’re honest with ourselves, we’ll acknowledge that our own community has not always been true to King’s vision of a beloved community.

We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them.

The scourge of anti-Semitism has, at times, revealed itself in our community. For too long, some of us have seen immigrants as competitors for jobs instead of companions in the fight for opportunity.

The Grim Truth

For gay and lesbian black men and women, the blow is even harder. But this community needs to be engaged not demonized, and we haven't engaged enough. The black church is one of the most powerful forces fomenting homophobia in America, and has fostered attitudes that have literally killed countless gay black men. It's time to Act Up against those elements that p.c. liberals have been too timid to confront. For the sake of African American gay and lesbian people as much as anyone else.

The Worst Speech of My Life

Last night was an eye opener. In the 10 years I've been giving public speeches, I've never faced a crowd like the one in Wilberforce, Ohio Tuesday evening. I often talk about sensitive issues in my speeches, so I don't expect everyone to agree with me when I take to the podium. Although most of my speeches go off smoothly, there have been a few times when things went wrong. I've been protested, challenged and questioned several times before. I've even seen a few people get up and walk out in the middle of a speech. But I have never spoken to any audience where dozens of students actually booed and jeered and hissed. Until last night.

Last night I was a keynote speaker for the annual convocation at Central State University in Ohio. Central State is a historically black college with a long and proud tradition of educating African Americans. So I was really looking forward to speaking to an educated black audience about homophobia in the black community. I was also looking forward to joining my friend and colleague Staceyann Chin, who was the other keynote speaker for the event. But my optimism quickly turned to disappointment only moments after I walked on stage.

Originally posted to Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:28 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Thank you very much. Important and well done. nt (8+ / 0-)
    •  Immediate bone to pick. (10+ / 0-)

      Until it was discovered that the other group pushing for Prop 8 as much as the mormons was the black community.

      That's a quote from you. Emphasis mine.

      Please provide a link to substantiate it.

      "Watch what you watchin'. Fox keeps feeding us toxins. Stop sleeping, start thinking outside of the box and unplug from The Matrix doctrine." -Nas

      by malharden on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:42:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  More like a nit to pick (6+ / 0-)

        is it possible that claim is inaccurate?

        Yup, it sure is. I would even deem it likely.

        Does it detract meaningfully from the force of this diary?

        No. No it doesn't.

        •  Depends on what you think the point of this.... (10+ / 0-)

          ...diary is.

          If you think the point of this diary is..

          Until you understand the deep rooted homophobia in the black community and call it for what it is, you'll never get anywhere.

          I agree with that.

          If you think the point of this diary is...

          Black churches which can be just as bad, if not worse, than Mormon churches in their spread and support of homophobia?

          I think that's yet to be proven. The Mormons sponsored and bankrolled this witchhunt. Yes, I believe the black churches are on the wrong side of this argument. But this diarist and others are creating a false equivalency. And still I see no effort to examine whether there is a similar issue in latin churches. If there is, why call out only black folk?

          "Watch what you watchin'. Fox keeps feeding us toxins. Stop sleeping, start thinking outside of the box and unplug from The Matrix doctrine." -Nas

          by malharden on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:51:05 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  There probably is a need to examine (3+ / 0-)

            Latin churches too. But (a) Hispanics didn't come out for prop 8 in the same numbers (b) Hispanics are a much newer part of the Democratic alliance and (c) we didn't just elect a Hispanic president.

            There's a reason that the AA vote seems particularly hurtful in this instance.

            Oh, and I should add that, in this particular case, (d) Yalin isn't Hispanic, so he's talking about what he knows.

          •  Understanding that black homophobia is (6+ / 0-)

            widespread and pushed by the black church to the point where 65-70% of blacks nationwide do not support gay rights is the key to understand what I've written on this topic.

            President Barack Obama - #44

            by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:58:23 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  But the "black church" isn't monolith. (7+ / 0-)

              It isn't ONE church - some black churches (Obama's former church for example) perform gay marriages and don't have a problem with them.

              •  Trinity United Church of Christ is an outlier (4+ / 0-)

                As is that entire denomination.  I see what you're saying, but the "black church" is casually referred to as an institutionalized support mechanism for the entire black community in many, many articles.  And the majority of them are Protestant, but not theologically or socially liberal.  

                "We're half awake in a fake empire."

                by Alec82 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:08:29 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  What you say (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Elise, Alec82

                  about the predominate view is true. But churches like Trinity in Chicago and Glyde in San Francisco demonstrate that African Americans don't have to give up the social support of churches in order to give up homophobia.

                  •  oh absolutely (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Killer of Sacred Cows

                    Although I would point out that, while some of the issues are very different for white evangelical churches, part of the problem is the underlying theological and social conservatism itself.  

                    Now, as you mention, there are theologically and socially liberal black churches.  But we face similar problems with both communities of voters.

                    "We're half awake in a fake empire."

                    by Alec82 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:37:06 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  let's not forget the Ark of Refuge (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Elise

                    led by the Bishop Reverend Doctor Yvette Flunder also here in san francisco.

                    yvette also is an out lesbian.

                    _______________

                    it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

                    -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                    by dadanation on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:59:38 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Okay another stat tossed with no proof. (4+ / 0-)

              Understanding that black homophobia is widespread and pushed by the black church to the point where 65-70% of blacks nationwide do not support gay rights...

              Sorry, I just don't believe that number. Where do you get it from?

              Do you mean Black Christians?

              Do you mean Blacks exit polled in California?

              How, PRECISELY, are you positive about "blacks nationwide"? You are unflinchingly painting "blacks" as a whole throughout this diary. No mention of religion. No mention of socio-economics. No mention of education level. There are many possible other factors but you're going right at "blacks". So, I'm calling for substantiation.

              Look, I'm not calling you a liar or anything but I know my friends aren't homophobic so I'm wondering who heck you've sampled....

              "Watch what you watchin'. Fox keeps feeding us toxins. Stop sleeping, start thinking outside of the box and unplug from The Matrix doctrine." -Nas

              by malharden on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:06:06 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Here's one instance (5+ / 0-)

                http://www.sovo.com/...

                It says Asian-Pacific Islanders showed the highest rate of support for gay marriage or civil unions at 55 percent. Support among whites was at 46 percent, among Latinos at 35 percent and among blacks at 23 percent.

                The report notes those findings reflected "strong gains in each of these groups except for blacks."

                "African Americans, in large part, have been very resistant to any notion of discrimination against anyone, even when it comes to same-sex couples," he said. "But we have not made the case yet that excluding same-sex couples from marriage is discrimination."

                According to research conducted by the National Black Justice Coalition and several other organizations, as many as two-thirds of black Americans are against gay marriage. Although the numbers vary by poll, research shows most blacks oppose both gay marriage and civil unions.

                The findings come as some surveys show a majority of whites have dropped their objections to same-sex unions. A poll by Pew Research Center in May showed that fewer than 50 percent of whites object to gay marriage.

                President Barack Obama - #44

                by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:15:00 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Those numbers are not what you imply (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Elise

                  From your link:

                  Twenty percent of that survey’s 600 respondents indicated they strongly believed that gays should be allowed to marry. Another 8 percent agreed that gays should be allowed to marry, but did not hold a strong position on the issue.

                  According to the survey, 50 percent of blacks strongly believed that gays should not be allowed to marry and another 11 percent agreed, albeit "not strongly."

                  In 2004, 36 percent of the HRC survey’s black respondents said they strongly opposed civil unions, while another 11 percent were generally opposed. The total opposed jumped this year to 53 percent, according to the Pew Center’s survey in May.

                  Robinson said opposition to civil unions runs high in part because the purely legal institution is seen as too close to its religious counterpart.

                  "Civil unions are seen as marriage light," he said. "It’s not seen as substantially different."

                  First of all, let me say those numbers are disturbing and problematic. I don't for a minute like what they represent.

                  However, a sample of 600 people is simply not large enough to make a statement about "blacks nationwide". Perhaps one of DKos' poll savvy people can weigh in here.

                  That said, as bad as those numbers are, they do not marry with your statement that "65%-70%" of blacks nationwide are against gay marriage. 50%-66% at worst is what you could claim based on this survey (again, I know this is a shitty percentage.)

                  And in the final blockquote you see the number come down when the term "civil union" is used, meaning that the objection is less about denying civil rights than it is about the religious connotations of the term "marriage".

                  "Watch what you watchin'. Fox keeps feeding us toxins. Stop sleeping, start thinking outside of the box and unplug from The Matrix doctrine." -Nas

                  by malharden on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:29:34 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Ok, so this poll, the exit polling in California (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Killer of Sacred Cows

                    and Florida, and the experiences of black gays such as myself are all wrong?

                    It's called a trend, not a singular statement of fact.

                    And again,

                       According to research conducted by the National Black Justice Coalition and several other organizations, as many as two-thirds of black Americans are against gay marriage. Although the numbers vary by poll, research shows most blacks oppose both gay marriage and civil unions.

                       The findings come as some surveys show a majority of whites have dropped their objections to same-sex unions. A poll by Pew Research Center in May showed that fewer than 50 percent of whites object to gay marriage.

                    President Barack Obama - #44

                    by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:36:20 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And again... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Elise

                      Twenty percent of that survey’s 600 respondents

                      Is that enough of a sample size to be statistically significant commentary on millions of "blacks nationwide"?

                      Lets look at it differently.

                      If someone sampled .00001% of Internet users on whether DailyKos was a good website, would you trust the poll results?

                      "Watch what you watchin'. Fox keeps feeding us toxins. Stop sleeping, start thinking outside of the box and unplug from The Matrix doctrine." -Nas

                      by malharden on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:46:13 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I don't think you understand how polling works. (4+ / 0-)

                        You don't need to take a large sample if you do the sampling properly. This is an old subject, based in statistics, and people who do that kind of polling are generally well-versed enough in statistics to know what they're doing.

                        "Because things are the way they are, things will not stay the way they are." -- Bertolt Brecht

                        by thaelmann on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:06:22 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  Sorry. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    greeseyparrot

                    I'm a poll-savvy person. Part of my job is teaching statistical analysis.

                    Your claim:

                    a sample of 600 people is simply not large enough to make a statement about "blacks nationwide".

                    is false.

                    It may sound incredible, but you only need a sample of 30 people from a population to make accurate statistical inferences and predictions about the behavior of that population. I will be posting a diary on this topic shortly, to show how that works.

                    Comfort the disturbed. Disturb the comfortable.

                    by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:39:58 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Please Put the Quote Back into its Full Context (0+ / 0-)

                  Here is what the report actually said in its entirety:

                  From the executive summary you quote:

                  65% of African-Americans are opposed to marriage equality compared to 53% of Whites. African-Americans are virtually the only constituency in the country that has not become more supportive over the last dozen years, falling from a high of 65% support for gay rights in 1996 to only 40% in 2004;

                  • Among African-American youth, 55% believed that homosexuality is always wrong, compared to 36% of Latino youth and 35% of White youth. Forty-eight percent of all Black male youth and 29% of Black female youth surveyed agreed that homosexuality is always wrong. 10% more males than females opposed the legalization of marriage equality (50% v 39%);

                  • Compared to other racial and ethnic minorities, African-American are more likely than Asian and Latinos to vote against marriage equality by nearly 10%. . .

                  Now, here is the detail underlying that executive summary, from page 10 of the report:

                  State by state analysis of the attitudes and perceptions among African-Americans on marriage equality are consistent with national polls and findings. In a poll conducted by Greenberg, Quinlan, and Rosner in California of likely voters, 61% of African-Americans surveyed said that they would vote for a ban on marriage equality compared to 49% of White voters. Among all racial and ethnic groups included in the poll, African-Americans were more likely than Asians and Latinos to vote against marriage equality by nearly 10%.

                  In the state of Maryland, a poll by the Washington Post indicates that 51% of Marylanders oppose marriage equality and 44% said they would support changing the law to allow civil unions.  Among African-Americans, 59% oppose marriage equality and 46% support civil unions. White Marylanders favor civil unions at 59% and 50% support marriage equality.

                  In the state of New Jersey, in a poll of likely voters conducted August 2007, 51% of African-Americans surveyed agreed that the state should not give gay couples the same freedom to marry as heterosexual couples, compared 40% of Whites, 42% of Latinos, and 58% of Asian-Pacific Islanders. Of the African-Americans surveyed, 16% said that allowing gay couples to marry will hurt the institution of marriage and close to 36% said that gay couples should not be able to marry or enter into civil unions.

                  There is a difference between saying one opposes gay marriage and voting to take away marriage rights at the polls, as the survey data NBJC confirms.  For example, if we were to believe without examination that New Jersey is a predictor of what would have happened in CA, then APA folks would have voted nearly 60% for Prop. 8 out here.

                  Obviously, and thankfully, that did not happen.

                  In other words, I feel it is incumbent upon those who in their legitimate anger over Prop. 8 take those previous survey findings which over and over and over again show a 60-40 split in the Black electorate (which while totally unacceptable and needing to be fought and fought hard is still nowhere near as fugly compared to other groups and try and reconcile them with a CNN poll that has (a) a result (70%) that is 10% higher than all other surveys which have looked at the opinions of likely Black voters, on the question of gay marriage, including the SUSA poll taken just a week before the election which had Black voters at 60% Yes on 8 and (b)  Black women voting FOR Proposition 8 at a higher percentage than Black men.  

                  They cannot be reconciled.

                  Look, as I said in my diary if the results of that poll had been that the clear majority -- 60% -- of Black folks polled said that they were going to vote for Proposition 8, I would have been brutally upset, but would not have said that the results of the poll were clearly wrong because I am well aware of the surveys and have been for some time.  It was the unique racially-scapegoating outrage expressed that the lopsided figure of 70% resulted in that led me to look at the figure (especially since it had 75% of Black WOMEN voting for Prop. 8, mathematically possibly only if huge numbers of Black MEN voted against it to overcome their minority percentage of the Black vote) and parse the data in this state.  NBJC's own report summarizing the data from other polls of Black voters confirms that the likelihood that CNN's poll is an outlier is very real.  

                  Your point which you made repeatedly to persons in response to my diary is that if even one Black person voted for it, it's wrong, is one I wholeheartedly subscribe to.  But I also subscribe to that idea if it had been Latinos called out.  Or APAs.  Or whites.  It was morally wrong for every voter who voted for Prop. 8 to do so.  But that is not a factor that should generate more or less outrage depending upon race.  Which is what was (and still is) happening.

                  •  The purpose of this diary isn't to single out (0+ / 0-)

                    the black community per se. It's to expose the hard truths of the reaction to the black community by progressives here at DKos and around the web, when juxtaposed with the reactions to the mormon and white evangelical community.

                    There is an underlying hypocrisy and unwillingness to engage the truth of the rampant homophobia present in the black community that is the purpose of this diary.

                    As I mentioned in the fold, there are multiple types of response to the Prop 8 debacle. I'm taking a different route on this.

                    Now that said, I've relied on the national polling of Sovo (66%) and the results borne out in Florida (71-29) and California (70-30) on this issue. Granted the NJ polling shows some improvement there with regard to blacks, but as you've stated it is still exceedingly high.

                    The trend and overarching theme of black homophobia, however, has not changed even if the percentages of a particular poll vs. another have.

                    That's why I didn't wade into that discussion in my diary.

                    President Barack Obama - #44

                    by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:48:33 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Btw, from my diary: (0+ / 0-)

                    Until it was discovered that the other group pushing for Prop 8 as much as the mormons was the black community. By a 70-30 margin in California and a 71-29 margin in Florida, black voters approved the stripping of gay rights. 65-70% of blacks across the nation do not support equal rights for gays and lesbians.

                    Does this mean that without black support those rights-banning laws wouldn't have been passed? Of course not. The margins were too large and the black voting community not large enough to make the difference.

                    What is important, however, is the fact that a historically oppressed and downtrodden minority voted overwhelmingly to keep another minority oppressed and downtrodden.

                    President Barack Obama - #44

                    by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:54:33 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  I added the link to the diary. [nt] (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                homogenius

                President Barack Obama - #44

                by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:21:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Jon Stewart quoted a similar statistic on (0+ / 0-)

                yesterday's Comedy Central.

                The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                by HoundDog on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:35:30 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, he quoted the CNN exit poll stat too. (0+ / 0-)

                  And he was wrong to do so.

                  "Watch what you watchin'. Fox keeps feeding us toxins. Stop sleeping, start thinking outside of the box and unplug from The Matrix doctrine." -Nas

                  by malharden on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:47:24 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  How so? I'm not familiar with the details? (0+ / 0-)

                    The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                    by HoundDog on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:49:56 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It's become conventional wisdom at Dkos (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      HoundDog

                      that the exit poll is meaningless. Not quite sure what the justification for that is rather than the proper "the exit poll needs to be confirmed or disconfirmed with additional investigation."

                      •  I agree there are problems with exit polls but I (5+ / 0-)

                        don't think they are meaningless.

                        One known issue is that young people are more open about discussing their political views with strangers.  Some old people never will.

                        So this can skew the numbers.

                        But if an exit poll indicates 60% to 70% of blacks said their voted for the prop, I don't see how that could be seen a totally meaningless.

                        The numbers are not exact, but given the history of the civil rights moment, wouldn't we hope the number would be zero?  

                        Certainly, it wouldn't appear to undercut the main theme the author is trying to explore.  Which can also be supported with lots of anecdotal evidence.

                        The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                        by HoundDog on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:59:51 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Conventional wisdom (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        greeseyparrot

                        about that poll is wrong.

                        It was done correctly and the results are valid. I will be posting a diary about how that works shortly.

                        Comfort the disturbed. Disturb the comfortable.

                        by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:41:21 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually yeah (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Urizen, BigAlinWashSt, Shhs, Roberlin

          Since the claim is the bulk of his argument, its inaccuracy renders it pointless as anything but a blanket statement

          Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

          by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:52:20 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No. Understanding that black homophobia is (7+ / 0-)

            widespread and pushed by the black church to the point where 65-70% of blacks nationwide do not support gay rights is the key to understand what I've written on this topic.

            President Barack Obama - #44

            by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:58:42 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Okay and we're to do what? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AaronInSanDiego, lisa66

              I see a lot of explaining, not a whole lot of solutions. Give me one and I'll give a shit. Otherwise it's just another "who to blame" diary, and it's getting tiring very fucking fast to the point that I don't even care that prop-8 passed anymore.

              Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

              by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:00:46 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't have a solution honestly. That's why I (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                johnnygunn, dedmonds

                walked away from the black community.

                That was my solution.

                President Barack Obama - #44

                by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:04:45 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well all and wonderful (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ticket punch, TheLoneliestMonk

                  Except now walking away seems like surrendering and letting things stay the same. I don't fault you for cutting your ties to a community that shuns you, nor do I pretend that homophobia isn't rampant in the AA community (and others, and frankly I see it as more of a religious matter). What I am sick of is all these diaries saying who to blame instead of suggesting what do we do to change it. I appreciate you pointing out the hypocrisy here (although with all due respect I have seen it divulge into pure racism, here and elsewhere, and no I am not calling any criticism of the AA community racist, just that what was racist), but all it does in my opinion is to say even more of nothing than what was already out there. Call me a man who wants solutions, not more explanation of what already happened when I'm looking to what will and should.

                  Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

                  by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:08:55 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The only point of this diary is to discuss, in an (4+ / 0-)

                    adult fashion, the hypocrisy of the progressive movement and sites such as this.

                    A hypocrisy that I believe stems from party identity politics.

                    That said, I deal with people one at a time. But I don't try to engage anymore at large because you get as far as you do with white evangelicals and mormons.

                    In other words, not far.

                    President Barack Obama - #44

                    by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:10:47 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Okay, still want to know what to do now (0+ / 0-)

                      I'll accept the hypocrisy and the blaming all around, but again it doesn't really suit our needs of knowing what needs to be done. I mean are we supposed to just talk to our friends and family one on one about it and try to circumvent the churches? Because honestly religion is the key to this stupid vote (and frankly a MUCH better predictor of who said yes on 8 than race), if you went to church you said no to gay marriage. Of course what do I know, I'm a straight white atheist who comes from a catholic maternal family and a southern baptist paternal family, that has completely disengaged from people of faith all around as something that is a poison to everything from equality to scientific progress.

                      Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

                      by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:16:51 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  If I knew, the black community at large would be (0+ / 0-)

                        the biggest supporters of gay rights outside of gays themselves. :)

                        This diary is merely to open the dialogue in an honest fashion and move it forward, even if just a little bit.

                        President Barack Obama - #44

                        by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:55:31 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  btw I am reccing your diary (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Killer of Sacred Cows

                      Just wish it wasn't another one that pretty much avoids the discussion of what needs to do be done.

                      Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

                      by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:18:33 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Until we figure out just what the issue is, (7+ / 0-)

                        we have no hope of addressing it.

                        And as is obvious, we're having trouble figuring out what the issue is.  This diary seems to be of assistance.

                        •  We know the issue, though (2+ / 0-)

                          Many if not most Americans have enough homophobia that they are against the concept of gay marriage. Plain and simple. You can focus on whatever subgroup you want LC but the differences spanning between them aren't as vast as everyone is making it out to be. Those who are against anything gay or otherwise more or less preach and practice the same message, just a matter of degree. Black evangelical churches spouting anti-homosexual rhetoric have enough in common with white evangelical churches spouting anti-homosexual rhetoric; probably the main differences is one preaches a liberal economic way of life, the other apparently never read the bible (my personal view is that mainstream evangelicals sure as hell love to pick and choose the bible, as does anyone else frankly).

                          As I see it, the problem is religion and the idea that gays are somehow "different". Sure it's fear and ignorance, but it's not the only thing people are such towards. You see a lot of the same irrationality towards pretty much a lot of things, such as immigration or other religions.

                          My question though is why do we need to know what the issue is NOW? Why didn't we know about this before? Didn't something like prop-8 already happen in California once before? Have not anti-gay amendments to state constitutions been getting enacted for over a decade? Sounds to me we're a day late, a dollar short, and surprisingly ignorant of what we're doing with. Frankly I have a hard time believing we don't know what the issues are, but if that is the case then it's no wonder we were ineffective against prop-8.

                          Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

                          by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:32:52 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I agree with you that the undeniable (4+ / 0-)

                            commonality here is religion.  The single best predictor if a vote to discriminate against gay people seems to be weekly church attendance, going by exit polls.

                            The issue, if we go this way with it, and I see no reason not to, is this: Figuring out how to make political criticisms of mainstream churches, mainstream religion.

                            I take it that it would be simply fruitless to criticize people's faith.  Or to blame religion as such.  And that means we have to figure out how to criticize, in fact, most churches without criticizing religion as such.  Very tricky.

                          •  Then we talk about that, and I know it's tricky (2+ / 0-)

                            Take it from an atheist, even suggest something about religion or the church destroys the whole dialogue. Frankly I just wish the whole marriage argument was more secularized, which was why I support the idea of some sort of civil marriage concept (forgive lack of nuance with it) where the power to declare such a contract between two individuals regardless of sex is taken only to the state. No religious person may sign off on it like they do now with marriage. Keep the churches free to perform any ceremony, but any such ceremony would come after a state declaration of such partnerships. Basically you get the religious elements taken out of the legal marriage network (if it requires taking out the word marriage so be it, so long as it applies equally to all people gay or straight in the LEGAL setting).

                            Maybe the route to go with the churches would be to suggest how gay marriage is in fact not disaligned with the Christian message (since the USA is overwhelmingly of that faith), and how the secularization of this would benefit us all.

                            Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

                            by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:49:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  that is exactly what we have NOW (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            greeseyparrot

                            Frankly I just wish the whole marriage argument was more secularized, which was why I support the idea of some sort of civil marriage concept (forgive lack of nuance with it) where the power to declare such a contract between two individuals regardless of sex is taken only to the state.

                            no religious person is required to sign off on a marriage license in order for the license to be valid.  the types of individuals who are empowered by the state to state "by the power vested in me by the state of ... i now pronounce you..." vary - anyone can be deputized to have the state vest that power in them for a day or a ceremony etc.

                            when religious folks make that statement at a marriage ceremony, they are instructing the folks in attendance that they (the person saying the "by the power vested in me..") are acting as an agent of the state.  period.

                            what your ideal is, frankly, is what we have now, except that the access  to the state-sanctioned, state-issued contract is denied to same sex couples.

                            atheists marry every day in this country.  and so too do non-christian individuals and their marriage license is valid and legal and has full faith and credit across all the states etc. (provided they are not a same sex couple).

                            so, since we already have in place what you would hold as an ideal, now what?

                            _______________

                            it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

                            -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                            by dadanation on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 10:42:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Everything you've said is true (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            dadanation

                            but the perception out there is what we must work against.

                            We have to point out that marriage is not, in fact, solemnized by religious leaders, pastors, and priests, but by the state. If we can get that simple fact across, we may be able to make some progress.

                            The facts/reality and the perception/belief about marriage are seriously disconnected. We need to work on bringing those two things closer to congruence.

                            Comfort the disturbed. Disturb the comfortable.

                            by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:49:44 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  i wholeheartedly agree (0+ / 0-)

                            this issue of perception versus reality is critical as we educate people about the actual nature of the marriage license.

                            i keep calling it a "state-sanctioned" partnership agreement or marriage license but am clear to maintain the clarity of the "state-sanctioned contract" just to drive the point home about the civil/secular nature of the whole process.

                            it muddies the water apparently that many religious do in fact solemnize the marriage license -- but they do so acting in the stead of the state.  that point it seems is lost on folks.

                            _______________

                            it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

                            -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                            by dadanation on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:07:39 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Not quite (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            greeseyparrot

                            What we have is a situation where sign-off by a religious person isn't necessary. However (and I've stated this in numerous comments in numerous diaries here), clergy are currently allowed to serve as surrogates of civil government in solemnizing legally recognized marriages. THAT is what needs to be stopped.

                            European nations without a state-sanctioned church, including, most notably, France and Germany, do not recognize anything other than civil marriage. Church services convey absolutely no significance to a marriage; they are something entirely separate and have no legal weight whatsoever and clergy there do not have the power to convey any legal rights to anyone.

                          •  wait. you just agreed with me (0+ / 0-)

                            the "not quite" is in fact, not accurate.

                            no one need ever engage a religious institution or individual in order to have their marriage license become legal ("solemnizing").

                            that is the case now as it was yesterday and will be tomorrow.

                            the european model that you cite is exactly the same here in the US.  the US recognizes only civil marriages and the US does not grant clergy the power to create a civil contract for a marriage -- that is the purview of the state/county.  

                            no religious confers any legal standing to a marriage license simply by performing a wedding EXCEPT in the case where they are acting in the stead of the state solemnizing a marriage license that has been issued by the state.

                            for quite a while now, several denominations/churches have performed same sex weddings. and they will continue to do so, i assume.  HOWEVER, for the couple, unless that couple lived in a state that recognized same sex marriages and only if that couple has already paid the state the fee for the marriage license, then the church ceremony was just that -- a ceremony that conferred no legal standing at all to the couple.  

                            i was ordained by the universal life church and have performed several marriages.  however, i can only mutter those words "by the power vested in me by the state of california..." if the couple i am marrying has paid the fee and received the marriage license.

                            once i have solemnized the license, i have to bring it down to city hall and turn it in within 10 days of the solemnizing function -- which has to be done within 90 days of actually obtaining the license in california.

                            the state gets a freebie by having ordained solemnize marriage licenses for them as well as gets a freebie from a number of other sources who too can perform a service to solemnize a marriage license (like former congresscritters, judges, captains of boats etc.).

                            this "in-kind" has turned out to cost us a lot more than it saves the sate however if its mere existence causes folks to not wholly grasp the civil and secular nature of the marriage license itself.

                            it is perhaps the religious institution's greatest act off coopting a process such that the process is now seen as a function of the volunteer entity (the church) and not as a ceremony relevant to the issuer of the agreement (the state).

                            clearly someone benefits from allowing the general public to believe something other than the facts.  in this case, it clearly woul;d be those who oppose equal rights for same sex couples.  how else can one explain why the truth about the marriage license and the role of the churches (eg -- we need no church to have a legal marriage) being so poorly understood or grasped?

                            _______________

                            it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

                            -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                            by dadanation on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:04:22 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No there is a difference (0+ / 0-)

                            In the US you can as a Universal Life Church minister utter the words "by the power invested in me by the state of" and the marriage is then solemnized. In France and Germany the clergy have no power vested in them by the state at all. That sounds like a small difference, in fact it is a HUGE difference. What matters is not whether the state needed to receive a fee and whether you as the marriage officiant need to deliver something to city hall. It's the same in either place. The difference is the "power vested in me" part. In the US it exists, in France and Germany IT DOES NOT. In the US clergy act in the capacity of government officials when they pronounce those words, in France and Germany they NEVER act as government officials. They do NOTHING with the marriage certificate whatsoever as they never receive it. Like many others you have misunderstood the way in which the separation between state and religion is blurred in this country when it comes to marriage.

                          •  no i have misunderrstood nothing of the sort (0+ / 0-)

                            why you want to create a divide here between us on an issue where there is no conflict is beyond me. at no point can i independently create a legally-binding state-sanctioned partnership agreement between two consenting (and not of the same sex) adults.  not ever.  not at all.

                            when i am part of the process which results in a legally-binding marriage license, it is only and solely when i am acting as an agent of the state.

                            period.

                            the us government does not recognize marriages that are not legally-binding.  it bears reiteration:  1) obtaining a marriage license and 2) paying the fee for said license and then 3) having that license solemnized and then 4) having the officiating agent then return the signed copy of the license to the state to be recorded and entered in this debate is the only process  that the couple must undergo in the states to have a legally-binding marriage.

                            as an ordained individual, i serve the process for the state.  if france or or germany or for that matter oklahoma or idaho choose to not have clergy be one of the types of individuals who act in the stead of the state in solemnizing the civil contract, more power to them.

                            the more problematic point is why is it that the church (as a group) has been allowed to mischaracterize their capacity as an agent of the state is beyond me.  and it is unacceptable.

                            we retain the separation between church and state, even when we allow for religious to solemnize the process -- one need be an ordained from any denomination or persuasion -- rabbi or priest or reverend or grand wiccan -- no mastter, all the state wants is the body who can officiate the solemnizing part.  the state does not confer undue or extraordinary or ANY power according to which religion or denomination or anything like that.   we are a cheap (and by cheap i mean free) labor force for the state.  

                            _______________

                            it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

                            -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                            by dadanation on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 06:04:57 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I just wish I understood better why the churches (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LithiumCola

                            are so against it. I mean I know semantically why, but being disconnected most my life and will for the rest of it, I just don't have the agency to get involved.

                            Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

                            by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:53:31 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm sure there are many books (0+ / 0-)

                            on the topic.  I can make up an historical fiction about how homosexuality was associated with paganism.  But I don't know if that's true.  And I doubt it would explain why churches are so exercised about it now.

                            Probably worth looking into at some point.  

                            (btw I'm an atheist as well, and so I don't exactly have a stranglehold on the issues here, either :) )

                          •  Well the thing is, homosexuality is the NORM (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            greeseyparrot, LithiumCola

                            in the animal kingdom, not the exception. So my views on it are way out of the mainstream because it's not associated with anything to do with beliefs as it is just a natural expression of human sexuality (hell I'm a believer that most of us are at least slightly bisexual). Actually if the pagans were associated with homosexuality I'm sure the Catholic church would have found a way to incorporate it (they did that with everything else pagan), and no I will not insert a priest joke there even though I was raised Catholic.

                            But then again, the churches will argue that gayness is both unnatural and too animalistic (contradictory, no?).

                            Actually, the church long ago actually did let two men get married a lot, back when priests even got married (not sure about two women, as we know women didn't have shit for rights), so the idea that they went against that is in itself odd.

                            I still think secularizing marriage is the way to go, since every argument against gay marriage has a religious root to it (that and human's stupidity when it comes to fearing somehow it affects the children, considering most kids don't really care and see it strange that we do).

                            Side story though, my cousin's daughter apparently has a friend who has "two moms" (we know why) but while seeing it as unorthodox doesn't see anything wrong with it, but the family does its best to avoid the subject altogether, which I guess is better than saying they're bad folks, considering we do have gays in the extended family

                            Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

                            by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:10:26 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  but it IS secularized (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Killer of Sacred Cows

                            I still think secularizing marriage is the way to go, since every argument against gay marriage has a religious root to it (that and human's stupidity when it comes to fearing somehow it affects the children, considering most kids don't really care and see it strange that we do).

                            when someone wants to dissolve their marriage agreement/license/contract, they do not go to a religious institution in order to have their divorce legal and binding.

                            only the civil, secular institutions which granted the validity of the contract can dissolve that contract.

                            marriage IS a secular activity.  first and foremost.  

                            _______________

                            it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

                            -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                            by dadanation on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 10:45:55 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I assume it's the role they play in the community (0+ / 0-)

                            I am not black; nor am I either a sociologist nor an anthropologist. So I can't speak authoritatively on the subject but I everything I have ever read leads me to think that the church plays a singular role in the black community; protecting its members from the stress caused first by slavery and then by discrimination. There is nothing that pulls people together as quite as strongly as simple, strongly worded, us-versus-them ideology.

                            I have always contended that there is little to nothing intrinsic to the theology of virtually any religion that is also intrinsically homophobic. Separating insiders from outsiders is a social function of most religions and certainly all western religions; the social doctrine of the organization comes from that function and not from theory about the nature of a deity.

                          •  A way forward (2+ / 0-)

                            Or at least a step in the right direction is the promotion of greater, meaningful interaction between the two communities.  Church leaders engaged in reasonable theology will often acknowledge more nuanced positions privately than what is delivered from the pulpit.  Most pastors, priests, etc., in even family sized congregations, know and minister to lesbian/gay parishioners.  The leadership needs to act more courageously in naming and destigmatizing what is  (in many, if not most cases) an open secret.

                            Conversely, the glbt community needs to go to church.  Even if you don't believe a word of it.  You don't have to go to the liturgy.  But the LGBT story needs to be heard and lived with.  Volunteer, or go to a program, or meet with the clergy, and when the time is right, share your story.  Force the perceived moral crisis between received homophobia and contradictory personal experience.  It's these one-on-one conversations and relationships that make all the difference.  Believe it or not, most Christians are not intellectual and spiritual zombies doing the unquestioned will of their clergy.  When persuasively challenged, it is possible and perhaps likely that the virtues of compassion and justice will bring true transformation and conversion.  But so long as pastors keep silent, gay Christians hide, and no alternative narrative is offered, I doubt we will see much in the way of helpful change.

                            This is long, difficult and likely frustrating work.  But it's the best answer I can see for now.

                    •  You're not dealing with anyone here (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      ticket punch, SDuvall

                      You're simply admonishing an entire race. You don't attempt any solutions, you don't care to reach out, you admit not being willing to try, and yet you ask for a productive discussion?

                      I understand you've clearly had some terrible experiences within the black community that have led you away from it, but Black man to Black man, taking shots at all Black people just to get back at those wrongs won't advance the GLBT cause.

                      If you want to deal with homophobia in the black community, you need to reach out to it.

                      Some of us WILL listen.

                •  One of the problems we're facing (0+ / 0-)

                  as a community (I'm speaking of GLBTs here) is outreach.

                  The black community, like many ethnic, religious, and other identity-based communities, tends to be more insular and - how do I put it - tends to close ranks against people who aren't part of the community. So doing outreach is difficult because it's hard to get people who distrust outsiders to listen.

                  As a white gay man, I'm not sure I can do effective outreach to the black community. But I think that black gay people might be better able to do so, because they have a similarity they can call upon to gain trust in the black community, where whites cannot. It's the same as trying to do outreach into a religious community; it's easier if you're a member of that religious community because you "speak the language," so to speak.

                  I told someone today that if I wanted to do outreach to a Christian, I would need to use their own religious texts to show how being gay is not against their religion at all; that coming into their life and demanding that they immediately accept, for example, psychological studies would be counterproductive.

                  Have you any thoughts about doing outreach to the black community, as a member of it? This may be where we need to start in order to do outreach effectively.

                  Comfort the disturbed. Disturb the comfortable.

                  by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:46:44 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  You would have walked away (0+ / 0-)

                  regardless.  Your issues run deeper than Proposition 8 and it's passage.  Whatever happened to you in your life must be very hurtful and I feel sorry for that.  You are very, very bitter towards the "Black Community" of which you belong to, no matter how much you try to distance yourself.  You can't walk away from what you are, no matter how hard you try.  Instead of the obvious hatred you have for your own kind, why not try to educate?  I would guess that your family wasn't very supportive of you either, because anyone who is close to their family, who is Black, would not be emitting the obvious hatred you have for Black Folks.  You hate Black people, and you want everyone else to hate them too, Proposition 8 is one vehicle to try to achieve your agenda.  You want everyone, and not just the few who have done it already, on Daily Kos to Chastise and Call out the Black Community, so that you can feel justified in your own hatred.  It isn't going to happen and you are more of a hurt to achieving Gay Rights than a help, and I say this not in the anger from which you speak, but the sincere sorrow for the anguish that you obviously are going through.  When is the last time you saw your family?

                  "Emancipate yourself from Mental Slavery".......Bob Marley

                  by Leslie123 on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 05:32:16 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I have enough support from my family. Was it (0+ / 0-)

                    difficult? Certainly. Does the love I receive from my family and friends change the overwhelming homophobia that putridly exudes from black community?

                    No.

                    So until the black community is indeed called out and chastised like any other community that preaches and practices hate and bigotry toward gays, they will continue to be glossed over for their faults much in the same way you have.

                    As for my family, the last time I spoke with them was a couple of days ago. The last time I was with my family was for the football games of my 8 and 10 year old cousins. I was there with my mother, step-father, brother, uncle and his wife, and their two kids.

                    So hey, continue making assumptions to which you know nothing. It's just another form of defensiveness toward the black community that keeps this conversation from being discussed honestly.

                    President Barack Obama - #44

                    by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 08:36:58 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  I responded to this above. (0+ / 0-)

              Because dammit I want you to prove that "blacks nationwide" stat. I simply don't believe it without solid proof. And a CNN exit poll with questionable sampling methodology is not what I would consider an accurate sample of "blacks nationwide."

              "Watch what you watchin'. Fox keeps feeding us toxins. Stop sleeping, start thinking outside of the box and unplug from The Matrix doctrine." -Nas

              by malharden on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:07:44 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Ronin122 (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            droopyd, Curufinwe, tnproud2b, Lauren S, Alec82

            Given that you've used to racism of a handful of gay folk as an excuse to let lose a torrent of hate, and then promised to leave only to stick around? I got nothing to say to you.

            •  I had unfinished business (0+ / 0-)

              And for someone who said you have nothing to say you sure went out of your way to talk. And excuse me I didn't bring in a torrent of hate, unless you refer to some ironic things I said in a diary which I did explain and hey you think that's bad I got one more diary of a "torrent of hate" this time by your side, buck-o, waiting for tomorrow. Want me to unleash that?

              Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

              by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:02:16 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Your sig (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                homogenius, Curufinwe, tnproud2b, Lauren S

                is all I need to know about you.

                •  What, that I don't appreciate gay hypocrisy? (0+ / 0-)

                  All that needs to be said is that I don't support people to hate against others and refuse to deal with such. I'll continue working against gay discrimination but sure as fuck won't go out of my way to work with those who take the race-baiting route.

                  Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

                  by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:10:28 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  "Gay hypocrisy" (4+ / 0-)

                    Good god ronin it really never stops, does it?

                    "We're half awake in a fake empire."

                    by Alec82 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:22:21 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  What is the hypocrisy I am referring to? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      lisa66

                      Figure that out and then we'll talk further.

                      Know what fuck it I'll just come out and say it. The hypocrisy of being against hatred going out against them, but go ahead and practice it themselves against, say blacks or any other subgroup. Yeah, that's hypocrisy my friend. No it doesn't stop until you acknowledge it. I hear a lot of it is happening in those protests at the Mormon churches, even if they were gay, how do you feel about that? Don't see anyone trying to denounce that do we?

                      Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

                      by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:26:30 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  So once again.... (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                homogenius, dedmonds, tnproud2b, Alec82

                ...you will take the actions of a handful as an opportunity to scapegoat all gay people, just as you did in your little GBCW screed?

                Lovely.  Why are you any better than the haters you decry?

                •  Oh I'm sorry, blanket statements are only okay (0+ / 0-)

                  When they help YOUR argument, I forgot.

                  Never said I was any better, hell I'll be the first to admit I'm a shitty little person. But hey let's not talk about the gays trying to scapegoat a whole race instead of focusing on those that did vote for the fucking thing, black or not.

                  Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

                  by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:24:06 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  "the gays trying to scapegoat a whole race" (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    dedmonds, Curufinwe

                    Please keep digging your hole.  This is amusing.

                    "We're half awake in a fake empire."

                    by Alec82 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:26:50 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  And what, precisely, is MY argument? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Alec82

                    Other than the fact that people engaging in scapegoating behavior are assholes, including the people scapegoating Africans Americans for Prop 8.  And including you, who are doing exactly the same thing, and appear to be blithely unaware of your own hypocrisy.

                    •  Fine, I confess to it (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Curufinwe

                      I was an asshole for saying what I did, you want me to write an apology diary for that? I will if you want me to but you'll need to give me till tomorrow, diary posting rules and all. I don't know what came over me but I am just bemused that yeah there were people scapegoating other people but it seemed like there was very little of calling it out on here. Seemed like every other diary about prop-8 was "blame the blacks" without even getting anywhere near a discourse on why the lop-sided statistics. Maybe I was hypersensitive to it myself, but I am all for a dialogue on why are AAs more anti-gay than anyone else, be it due to religion or whatever. But what I've seen until today there's been nothing constructive, and yesterday I snapped.

                      Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

                      by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:43:21 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  And still snapping today apparently (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        greeseyparrot, dedmonds

                        Maybe I should have taken my words yesterday to leave, I am not exactly great here when off my moods.

                        Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

                        by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:51:04 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Good of you to admit this (0+ / 0-)

                          I give you props (and even mojo) for it.

                          •  I really do apologize to you (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            greeseyparrot, dedmonds

                            I've lashed out on you specifically a few times. I guess I should have learned my lesson from the primary wars to just disengage when tempers flare. Seriously though, I just hate seeing the worst come out of our side the last 4 days and I get crazy; I mean let's face it, there's a reason we don't watch Rush Limbaugh. I'm going to change my signature now, probably will leave it blank till I think of something better.

                            Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

                            by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:01:58 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Thanks ronin (0+ / 0-)

                            it takes a real solid person to step back and say "I'm wrong" in the heat of shit like this.

                            Apology accepted and I look foward to working with you when you're ready to figure out how to move forward on the bundle of issues that we've seen emerge in recent days (and lest you think I'm not aware, racism in the LGBT community is one of those issues just as much as is homophobia in the AA community).

                          •  I may want to tackle it on the Catholic Church (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            flagpole

                            route, since that's probably where I would be most knowledgeable since it's in my lineage and they did fund the prop-8 shit (tell me why the largest landowner in the world doesn't pay taxes, again?). I think making inroads with them would be effective, perhaps if nothing else just my knowing many if not most are pro-choice even though the Pope damned those who support pro-choice politicians to not being able to take communion, so it's not like ALL Catholics listen to the church.

                            I guess on my part, being an outsider to the gay community I was just unaware at the divisions between them and the AA community. I mean I knew that blacks seemed more homophobic as a whole (I confess, I used to listen to rap, that and I knew many blacks in Chicago) but not that race-issues within the LGBT was a factor. I only really started looking into it by reading those like Andrew Sullivan who did bring it up a few times in recent days and from following links I have a better appreciation that indeed even before prop-8 there were tensions between blacks and whites within the gay community. Perhaps I was just taken aback at what I saw for the first time?

                            Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

                            by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:16:51 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I really advise following some of the links (0+ / 0-)

                            Yalin provides in this diary if you want to see the problem of homophobia in the AA community through AA eyes. Historically Black Homophobia is incandescent (it's full of rage, be warned, but a provocative read) and My Worst Speech Ever (which was the inspiration for Historically Black Homophobia) will show you homophobia as experienced by a gay black man at a historically black college. It was eye-opening to me.

                      •  I appreciate the candor (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        ronin122

                        Hopefully, as tempers cool, we can all try to move forward in a constructive manner.  A lot of people have not exactly covered themselves in glory the last few days.

                        •  I really do feel bad for what's been said by me (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          flagpole

                          I think the fury goes around for many of us on all sides of this, and we just are looking for somewhere to lash out because we don't know what more to do. I mean we're told to keep fighting but in the legal sense there's little most of us can do at the moment.

                          I just wish I knew the proper course of action. As LithiumCola and I were talking upthread, the issue seems to be the churches (face it, if you went to church you didn't vote no) and I was thinking of diarying maybe about that. Since as the diarist said we are having reluctance talking of this since AAs make up a big voting block, same with, say Catholics (I was raised as one though now an atheist) whom make up the mythic "Reagan Democrats", I was thinking of tackling the church side of it. Problem is I'm not involved with religion nor with those who are, and don't really know what to say since anytime you invoke the churches (e.g. evolution) you're on thin ice.

                          Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

                          by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:59:59 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

          •  I thought you said you were leaving.... (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            homogenius, dedmonds, Curufinwe, Lauren S

            ...after you decided to praise the passage of proposition 8 last night?

            "We're half awake in a fake empire."

            by Alec82 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:09:05 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Someone sure didn't read between the lines (0+ / 0-)

              I was trying tactlessly to point out an irony found on this site. You want nothing to do with me then fine, don't respond to me. I frankly have no real liking of proposition-8, but hey if you want to have riots where you call your black gay friends the n-word, then I'll call it out.

              Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

              by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:12:41 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Read the black church links I've provided. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        homogenius, greeseyparrot, ExStr8, Osiris

        One religious group doesn't have a monopoly on organizing against Prop 8.

        President Barack Obama - #44

        by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:48:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Pushing prop 8 as much as Mormons? (9+ / 0-)

          Can you direct me to the link that shows black churches sponsoring, bankrolling and organizing support for Prop 8? I missed that link.

          "Watch what you watchin'. Fox keeps feeding us toxins. Stop sleeping, start thinking outside of the box and unplug from The Matrix doctrine." -Nas

          by malharden on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:52:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Urging your church goers to vote against gay (0+ / 0-)

            rights is just as bad.

            President Barack Obama - #44

            by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:57:16 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Just as bad as sponsoring and bankrolling? Bullsh (0+ / 0-)

              ...it.

              Again, I think the black church is on the wrong side of this.

              But #1 they are not the villain that the Mormon church is and #2 what about the Catholic church? The baptists? The methodists? What about Muslim religion?

              Nah, none of them mattered. It was "the blacks"!

              "Watch what you watchin'. Fox keeps feeding us toxins. Stop sleeping, start thinking outside of the box and unplug from The Matrix doctrine." -Nas

              by malharden on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:10:57 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sigh. The defensiveness you're exhibiting when (0+ / 0-)

                discussing this subject is precisely what I was addressing in my diary.

                Yes, bigotry whether spoken or bankrolled is just as bad.

                President Barack Obama - #44

                by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:39:04 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  We disagree on that. (0+ / 0-)

                  "Watch what you watchin'. Fox keeps feeding us toxins. Stop sleeping, start thinking outside of the box and unplug from The Matrix doctrine." -Nas

                  by malharden on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:41:04 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  It's unfortunate that its interpreted that way. (0+ / 0-)

                  I do not intend to be defensive....

                  ...and making that argument seems to indicate that you think I need to accept your argument before you believe I'm debating sincerely. Kinda like McCain refusing to talk to me without preconditions. :-p

                  "Watch what you watchin'. Fox keeps feeding us toxins. Stop sleeping, start thinking outside of the box and unplug from The Matrix doctrine." -Nas

                  by malharden on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:42:31 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Not at all (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        limulus, Urizen, linkage

        Some black churches were involved, but the leaders of the AA community were not. There was deception, I'll provide evidence in an article tomorrow.

        I do not expect the AA community rush to the defense of the LDS when we shut them down.

        Our work has just begun!

        by MakeChessNotWar on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:57:38 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  A well written, courageous, and thourough diary (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      johnnygunn, Alec82

      Yalin.  You are in a position to confront truths that would be more difficult for othrs to talk about.

      Thanks.

      The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

      by HoundDog on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:31:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Black Gays And The Black Church. 101. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Yalin

      "We go there and we hear the negative kinds of messages ... at least once a year, sometimes even more. We don’t really feel welcome there, and that’s kind of disheartening."

      E. Lynn Harris, talking about I Say A Little Prayer.

      E. Lynn Harris, a gay author whose enormously successful books have given wide exposure to the "downlow," is now tackling the relationship between black gay men and their church in his latest novel, "I Say a Little Prayer."

      "It’s important in our lives," Harris says about the church with regard to gay black men. "We go there and we hear the negative kinds of messages ... at least once a year, sometimes even more. We don’t really feel welcome there, and that’s kind of disheartening."

      "I Say a Little Prayer" tells the story of Chancy Greer, a business owner in Atlanta who resumes his childhood singing career in church and is invited to perform at a revival meeting.

      He soon discovers, however, that the revival will include anti-gay rhetoric, so he plans a protest. A romantic interest from his past shows up to complicate matters further.

      Harris says the book was partially inspired by his experiences.

      Class is in session.

    •  THANK you. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      johnnygunn, greeseyparrot, Yalin

      I've been trying to get this point across on another site, and I keep getting told that hammering on these two points:

      1. Rejecting the statistics just because they are unpalatable is wrong; the statistics were, unfortunately, correct (I'm working on a diary about that); saying that 224 is too small a sample to draw inferences from is absolutely wrong (again, I'm working on a diary to eviscerate that particular claim)
      1. Rejecting the truth of the matter, which is that the black community is about 18% more homophobic than any other voting block - demonstrated by those statistics - is wrong

      ... is somehow not okay because it's divisive.

      It's the truth, folks. It's not racist to point out the truth. Something about the culture of black Americans (as opposed to the culture of non-black Americans) caused an approximately 18% difference in the ratio of votes of black voters compared to the votes of other groups. Yes, this may be explainable by their religion, culture, or ignorance, or a combination of all three, but if it wasn't some factor specific to black voters we would not see this jarring and fairly extreme difference between that group and the other groups polled.

      I don't like the result either, but at least I'm willing to admit that it stands up to statistical analysis and that it's reliable and valid. If I saw this result about gay people voting on the rights of blacks, and saw that gays were overwhelmingly more racist to the tune of 18%, compared to other groups, I would not deny it or try to handwave it away or excuse it. I would start challenging other gays to get their act together and get their heads out of their asses and start seeing blacks as equals instead of second-class citizens. And I would think that all of my gay friends would be doing the same thing, because my friends are not bigots.

      Thank you for an excellent diary.

      Comfort the disturbed. Disturb the comfortable.

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:35:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  So what action should we take? (8+ / 0-)

    My goal is to make sure the next time gay rights are up for a vote, Blacks vote in favor of gay rights.  

    How do we do that?

  •  Nice Diary.... (10+ / 0-)

    Highly recommended.....

    I think Wayne Bensen hits the nail right on the head:

    Wayne Bensen on Prop 8

    And especially with this claim:

    1. While I recognize that there are many supportive pro-gay black churches, as long as this (churches) is the central organizing place for black politics, this is not helpful for gay rights. Alternative organizing places for aspiring black leaders must be strengthened.

    Exactly right!

    I don't have "issues". I have a full subscription!

    by GayIthacan on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:38:26 PM PST

    •  Off topic... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      subtropolis, linkage, crose


      Just wondering if it was your intent to hide-rate the tip jar in my diary.

      And if so, what your rationale was.

      The fact is that the average man's love of liberty is nine-tenths imaginary, exactly like his love of sense, justice and truth. - H.L. Mencken

      by two roads on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:51:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  its all about religion period (0+ / 0-)

      it really isn't complicated. Black, White, Hispanic and Jews. The ones that cling to religion and use their respective church to form their opinions are the problem.

       It happens to be, in Cali in particular that a larger % of whites and jews are secular then hispanics and blacks.

       

      •  No. (0+ / 0-)

        There are faithful people on both sides of this issue.  The first civil rights movement was organized by Christian leadership. Today there are good people representing a variety of different religions working together to with (and within) the GLBT community to win this fight.  It's okay that you distrust religion, but don't just make stuff up.

        P.S.- Do you not consider it possible for Jewish people to be white or black or hispanic also?

  •  excuse me? (6+ / 0-)

    who here has called blacks niggers?

    http://politicz.wordpress.com/

    by GlowNZ on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:39:01 PM PST

  •  Protests happening as we speak against prop 8 (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    linkage

    here is video link to live video

    http://www.ktla.com/...

    http://politicz.wordpress.com/

    by GlowNZ on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:42:38 PM PST

    •  big crowd it looks like (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      linkage

      http://politicz.wordpress.com/

      by GlowNZ on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:43:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm uncomfortable with the involvement of ANSWER (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tnproud2b, Lauren S

      My thought is that ANSWER will be using the protests against Prop 8 to further their own agenda.

      The Prop 8 protests need to be focused like a laser beam on the issue of marriage equality -- not become a panoply of progressive agenda items.

      "Some people pay for what others pay to avoid." -- Howard Devoto

      by droopyd on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:15:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh God (0+ / 0-)

        ANSWER has joined in the protest?   That's bad news.

        You're absolutely right.

        •  Nothing good will come of that. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dadanation, Lauren S

          They are rank opportunists.

          Actually, "parasites" comes to mind.

          "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

          by homogenius on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:41:09 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dadanation, homogenius

            As droopyd said above:

            The Prop 8 protests need to be focused like a laser beam on the issue of marriage equality

            I think this is absolutely correct and very important.  If these become seen as Free Mumia! Israel is the Devil! protests, they will fail miserably.

            •  apart from the problematic ANSWER (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lauren S

              did you happen to read ther text of the TV spot that accompanied the video from la?

              State law recognizes civil unions between gays and lesbians. Those unions allow individuals virtually the same rights as a "married" person, but activists want there to be no distinction.
                   

              great.  so even the evening news is not telling the populace the actual truth.  the state scotus ruled our DP law a separate and unequal system.

              specifically po'd about this "virtually" the same rights.  yeah, like i have full faith and credit...

              the multi-headed hydra in this game is profoundly powerful if mainly by its own self-interest and homophobia be that the churches, the media, the status quo or the homophobes.

              i just wish that once we'd actually not have to do all of this from square one --  but sadly we do.

              _______________

              it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

              -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

              by dadanation on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:26:00 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Wow that's bad (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                dadanation

                That tv station is apparently making it out as if there are really no differences between the rights of gay partners and those of straight married couples and thus it's just a bunch of whining by gays.  Wow.  

                i just wish that once we'd actually not have to do all of this from square one --  but sadly we do.

                That's exactly it, with that one vote so much was moved backwards to a place where it can't just be corrected.  It will be a lot more difficult to get people to vote FOR gay marriage, which is exactly what a proposition repealing prop 8 will be seen as, than to simply not vote to ban it.

                •  i know (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Lauren S

                  it is of no coincidence that the challenge to same sex marriages in california was as well-funded as it was in california this time around.  knowing that a huge amount of resource would be directed towards making history and trying to right the wrong that is and was george bush and his 8 years of malice and ineptitude, the ideal chance to push back on civil rights was presented the foes of same sex marriages (who i would note are also the foes of choice -- odd how sexism and homophobia remained intertwined -- perhaps as is the case since homophobia is merely a form of misogyny -- but i digress).

                  it was insult to injury in a sense.

                  couple that with a campaign (the No on 8 folks) who were as out-of-touch as one could ever be with their efforts and who only woke up to the possibility that mean people from somewhere were going to try to take down same sex marriages in california and they were going to fight dirty.

                  the media did not help -- in fact they did help the opposition -- by their reporting of the "exceptional" and "outlandish" instead of either treating same sex marriages the same way they treat hetero marriages (they don't make the 6 o';clock news unless it is a celebrity thing...  etc) nor were they as bold in their investigative function as one would have hoped -- and this happened across the state, both in sf as well as the small counties.

                  del martin died after she and her wife phyllis lyon were legally married having been together over 55 years, but what was tabloid fodder more over the airwaves was the fact that mr sulu didn't invite capt kirk to his nuptials.

                  the catholic churches preached supportive sermons for passing prop 8 (with papal blessings to do so that date back expressly to the screeds from cardinal ratzinger in 1986).  black churches organized during services to pass prop 8. the LDS sent $15 - $20m into the coffers of the Yes on 8 folks while the Knights of Columbus shipped in another $1m to help defeat samne sex mariages.

                  we even had the extortion letter come to light that the four religious entities signed that told organizations to either fund the Yes on 8 campaign as they had funded the No on 8 group "or else."  

                  these are but parts of the mosaic that when put together explain some, but not all, of the reasons why californians voted to take back from american citizens one of their constitutionally-guaranteed rights.

                  _______________

                  it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

                  -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                  by dadanation on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:16:05 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

  •  I was not going to read (16+ / 0-)

    another diary on Prop 8, but did read yours.  Here's my 2 cents from a boomer white straight woman, for what it is worth.

    Anger is a waste of energy at this point.  Channeling the initial anger should be directed at action -- and that is twofold:  find out what the legal actions are that are being discussed, help or donate.  Target the groups whom you (the general use) feel are responsible -- um, that would be everyone, first and foremost the "leaders" of the No on Prop 8 initiative -- they sucked.  

    Last month, 3 months, 8 months a year ago were not the times to start an outreach into religious and ethnic communities.  Are some blacks homophobic? Yes, but picking out choice examples is not going to change the minds of those who might be able to draw on their civil rights roots.  Are some Mormons, Catholics, fundies, etc. homophobic? Yes -- but some may be convinced to address the fundamentals of their faiths, which not one I know of calls for discrimination.

    I'm willing to get flamed, but I'm tired of the rage that doesn't translate into action and change.

    •  Understanding the state of the black community (6+ / 0-)

      vis a vis the black church is the first step to understanding how to deal with the problem.

      Until people get past their squeamishness with talking about that particular thorn, nothing will ever happen.

      President Barack Obama - #44

      by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:00:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I asked to spend time (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lisa66, Elise

        on Wednesday with my local black church -- yes, I admit, part curiosity, but part wanting to celebrate in that community.  Ironically, the friend who brought me is openly gay and clearly loved by many in the church.  I hadn't gotten the news re: prop 8 prior to my attending.  Had I, I might have made better use of my time.  Of course, I'm in CT and we defeated an attempt to undermine our universal marriage law.

        I often find that the first step is conversation without confrontation.  Sometimes it works == sometimes not.  

      •  I'm very glad you wrote this diary. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Killer of Sacred Cows, Yalin

        There are far too many liberals/progressives, including here, who, as you say, get squeamish on this issue. While some of it may have been because people here were so excited by Obama's victory that they only wanted to hear "happy" news, I think the majority of it is because so many here are in denial. Others who've brought it up here have gotten shouted down. And some people here have even told you, a black homosexual, that you don't know what you're talking about! Unbelievable.

        Anti-gay sentiment in the black community is indeed an issue. Anyone who's grown up in a black neighborhood could tell you that. I saw it growing up in Watts. It's there, and pretending it isn't won't make it go away. And as you point out, the black churches (with a few exceptions) are a major source of the problem.

        This issue needs to be thoroughly exposed and discussed. Trying to sweep it under the rug, as some here would like, won't solve anything. I've seen the gamut of reactions here: from the types of white liberals who think black people can do no wrong, to black liberals in denial. But I'm encouraged by the number of realistic responses I've seen.

        I think the discussion can be done in a way that is not divisive, which is key in figuring out how to actually get around to solving the problem. I applaud you for speaking out on this and I hope others here listen to what you have to say, because from my experience you are speaking the truth.

        "Because things are the way they are, things will not stay the way they are." -- Bertolt Brecht

        by thaelmann on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:32:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  There are significant differences (11+ / 0-)

    I ask again, where were those calls when it came to white evangelicals and mormons, both of whom happen to vote republican?

    White evangelical and Mormon leadership have organized politically against the interests of gays and lesbians.  African Americans, as a community, have not.  

    It makes sense to protest political organizations that put Amendment 8 on the ballot, financially backed the campaign, and organized GOTV campaigns.  However, to then use that protest to justify vilifying and scapegoating one racial group primarily because of one, unscientific exit poll, is not justifiable.  

    •  The black community has organized. It's called (8+ / 0-)

      the church.

      President Barack Obama - #44

      by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:47:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Which is the overwhelming reason (6+ / 0-)

        for "homophobia" in any race.  Religion and beliefs are the answer, not a race.

        •  Follow the links Yalin provides (5+ / 0-)

          please, don't tell a Gay Black Man that he doesn't know about his own race and homophobia. Read the links he provides, and listen to a lot more Black LGBT folk tell their stories.

          •  Doesn't mean they aren't the same damn (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lazybum, linkage, Shhs, ChiTownBlue2000

            stories told by white and asian and hispanic LGBT.

            •  Actually, they aren't (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              linkage, tnproud2b, Lauren S
              •  And you know this because ... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BigAlinWashSt
                •  Because I'm an active member of the gay (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  homogenius, tnproud2b, Lauren S

                  community who has read, engaged, listened to and told these stories for over 20 years? The stories of AA members are distinct. The stories of every demographic have commonality, but the difficulties of being black and gay are, frankly, the toughest I know of (though Mormon and gay and Evangelical white and gay are pretty damn awful too; the difference is that I've never heard stories like The Worst Speech of My Life, which the diarist links above, come from any other group).

                  •  Difficulty of being black gay v. differences (0+ / 0-)

                    between internal relationships between LGBT people and their particular ethnic community.  I was asking about the latter - how do you know that other ethnic communities do not hold similarly homophobic views, whether these communities be white midwesterners, or Chinese American communities, Latino American communities, African immigrant communities, etc.?  

                    •  Oh that (0+ / 0-)

                      that's a much larger question than I have the time or resources to tackle at 11:27 on a Saturday night. I will say this: I've never seen a story-- and I've read a lot of them-- like Keith Boykin's in The Worst Speech of My Life-- except from other African American authors. I realize that's not hard statistical proof (what statistics there are out there about race and homophobia are actually interesting for African Americans, who tend to be more homophobic BUT more supportive of civil rights, with marriage equality being the notable exception), but it's all I have for you right now.

                      The exit polls, on the other hand, indicate to me the need for more research to be done so we can see whether there's hard proof; and that's all that a lot of people have been asking for.

                      The reaction of the AA LGBT community has largely been along the lines of "we've been telling you for years this is a problem, will you please listen now?" And some of the links Yalin provides (and that I provide in a diary I posted Friday) bear witness to that.

                      •  Check out these stories from gay Mormons (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Killer of Sacred Cows

                        "Being gay in ... [the Mormon] culture is beyond hell ... I wanted to be cured so badly. The family is the center of Mormonism -- it is the sacred, potent unit. ... It is a great failure that family can only be the family almost by the Ozzie and Harriet definition, and anything outside that is not family at all." Trevor Southey, artist

                        Life for Gay Mormons - a living hell

                        And here's a quote from that website by a Mormon historian telling gay people that they need to convert or kill themselves, because they lead hopeless lives.

                        "The only marriage sanctioned by God is of a man to a woman. In the case of a gay person, they really have no hope. ... And to live life without hope on such a core issue I think is a very difficult thing." Marlin Jensen, official LDS historian.

                        I don't know, but, sounds like being gay and Mormon really, really sucks.  Is it worse than being gay and black?  Who knows?  And does it really even matter?  

                      •  Hard proof (0+ / 0-)

                        Comfort the disturbed. Disturb the comfortable.

                        by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 01:49:47 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  Well, if you read QUEER FAMILIES, QUEER POLITICS (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Roberlin

                      An example shows up in the Latino community where they have a mechanism in place to reduce homophobia.  Gay males that migrate to the States gain acceptance from their families still in their home country because the gay males still send financial support.  Gay males' families reduce their hostilities towards homosexuality as they realize their economic interests are being served by continuing to welcome their homosexual children within the community.

          •  Extremely presumptuous of you, dedmonds (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            linkage

            And your post reeks of self-righteousness.  

            You make a lot of assumptions about who I am and whether I do or do not listen to black LGBT folk tell their stories.  

            I never said that a gay black man doesn't know his own race or about homophobia.  Go back and read my comments and really try to comprehend what I'm saying instead of engaging in your own prejudice and bigotry against posters whom you recklessly accuse of telling "a Gay Black Man that he doesn't know about his own race and homophobia."  

          •  That's again, because blacks are far more likely (6+ / 0-)

            to be churchgoers than non-blacks.

            This picture says it all about Prop 8.

            "you ought to be ashamed of yourself, person who loves to tell your 'hat story' with OPOL. Grow up."

            by DemocraticLuntz on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:03:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That would be the overwhelming stat, yup. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              dedmonds

              Damned if I know what to do about it, though.

              •  Every indication I've seen (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                limulus, Elise, LithiumCola, Yalin

                (and I can't find the study right now, damn it, but I'll see if I can later) is that while homophobia is more prevelant in the AA community than in the population as a whole, support for gay civil rights is also more prevalent in the AA community than in the population as a whole. So it's possible that part of the immediate fix from a practical perspective is to educate the AA community on how marriage equality is, in fact, a civil right.

                Now, that doesn't deal with the root homophobia which, to me, is the more vital issue, frankly, as that root homophobia is what leads AA LGBT men and women to feel isolated from the AA community (which in conjunction with the racism in the predominantly white gay community all too often leaves them ghettoized in a very small AA gay community). But from a purely pragmatic, marriage equality perspective I think that's the place to start.

                I wrote my diary today, in fact, in an effort to articulate some of the concrete benefits of marriage equality such that they could be perceived as what they are: civil rights.

      •  I'm using organized in a formal sense. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        resa

        Not in the informal way you are using it.  That means everyone who goes to church is "organized."  Nonsense.  

        The Mormon church acted like a political action committee with proposition 8.  Christian evangelicals are organized through the republican party.  

        African Americans homophobes, on the other hand, are not politically organized in the same way.  They may be homophobic, but, that isn't an issue that drives them to create political action committees, donate money, and actively campaign against gay rights.  

        You are conflating the protesting of political organizations with the moral critique of an ethnic community's cultural norms about sexual orientation.  

      •  You know not all black ppl go to church (0+ / 0-)

        I thought AA's only make up around 6 percent of the Cali population anyways.  Plus didn't everybody under 30 (in every ethnicity) vote against it?  

        "...the fundamentals of our economy are strong"- John Sidney McCain 09/15/08

        by Shhs on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:02:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yalin, let's talk.... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        homogenius, tnproud2b, Yalin

        I'm with you; let's talk...  These problems are pervasive and it's time for level heads to prevail.  I'm gay & an ethnic mongrel (mostly Euro) if that matters; in Oakland CA, and with some background doing studio production for local rap artists including a few who are/were well known.

        One thing I notice recently is that a lot of borderline and overt racism is being stirred up in a manner that suggests we are being infiltrated by provocateurs.  We need to put a stop to that immediately.  Good people can be persuaded to say/do bad things by people they perceive as being similar to themselves, so the sooner we stop it, the less it will spread.  

        One of the tactics of the powers-that-be is to divide minorities and oppressed groups against each other.  It works in their interest to do so, and they are highly skilled at it, and we have got to resist it.  

        On the flipside, one reason I think folks around here are reluctant to criticize the black community where criticism is objectively due, is out of a reaction to the above point: not feeding potential divisiveness that only benefits those who are oppressing all of us.

        So this is a real minefield, and we would all do well to follow Obama's example in terms of keeping a level head no matter what.  

        Re. homophobia in the black community:

        See also recent diaries and postings by Facingreality, who speaks as a black man who has zero tolerance for homosexuality and who rejects any comparison between the gay and black civil rights movements.  Despite his vehemence, and the objectionable nature of some of his remarks, he makes a few points I think we should give further thought.  

        One is that black families and the black community have managed to stick together through the worst of slavery and up through Jim Crow, due in large part to the Bible and the church.  At very least, the appeal to the common ground of Christianity has been a powerful force in the demand for racial equality: "we worship the same God as you do, and the God we both worship commands you to treat us as equals."  

        Another appears to be a conflation of "rights" as per the law, with "right" as in "morally acceptable."  This issue could be lurking below the surface across the board, with everyone (black, white, etc.) who opposes us.  When we say "equal rights under law," many peoples' unconscious reaction to that is probably along the lines of "it's not an equal right if it's wrong."   Thus I think we should change our language across the board and use the phrase "equality under law," to avoid the unconscious conflation of language.  

        Another, though Facingreality would object to this highly, is the factor of using the law to enforce social status differentials.  Many humans have a tendency to want to put others "below" themselves as a means of gaining social status and power.  A person who is drowning may push another down in order to climb up for air.  Slavery in North America was a 2-1/2 century holocaust of Hitlerian proportions (from what I can find, 1619 to 1869), without the equivalent of de-Nazification after it was over.  Given the history of Jim Crow and the persistence of institutionalized racism, there remains the ever-present risk of being drowned once again.  Thus it makes sense that some in the black community will seek to push other minorities down in order to stay above the water-line.  For those who survive disaster by harming others in order to do so, one of the ways to avoid 'survivor's guilt" is to justify their actions by dehumanizing those they harmed.  

        I agree with you that much is due to facts of human psychology and social psychology: for example that a culture in which masculinity and fatherhood are valued, will tend toward bigotry against men who don't go along.  

        As well, the black community today faces threats from within as well as from without, for example with respect to gangs and drugs.  Thus a potential tendency to see gay issues as one more possible threat: the "loss" of more black men who "could" otherwise stand strong against other corrosive influences.  

        It occurs to me that marriage could strengthen the black community as follows:  "would you prefer that gay/lesbian/etc. black Americans live monogamously and in all other ways conventional lifestyles, or would you prefer to push them into yet another underground that stands apart from the community?"  Something along the lines of "everyone's a sinner but at least Bob & Steve down the block are living respectable lives..."

        Beyond that, it seems to me that the history of puritanism in America, across all racial and otherwise defined communities, is a huge issue and needs to be dealt with.  I'm tempted to say the way to do it is to re-assert the kind of sexual liberation ideology that existed in the 1960s, to rub the puritans' noses in their own obsession with sex until their heads explode.  Whether or not that's a viable idea remains to be seen.  

        So I wonder what you think, and what you would suggest in terms of mutual outreach and building of common ground and dealing with cultural factors in all communities.  I think that's the place to start: build the common ground, and then enlarge it.  

        Where do you think we should start?  

        •  Well said. But honestly, I have no clue where (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          homogenius, G2geek

          to begin. I grew so frustrated with the black community that I largely left it behind. I still have several black friends and obviously I love my family, but I disengaged.

          Call me cowardly. But I don't know where to start when the homophobia is so deeply intertwined with the spiritual/religious bedrock of the black community.

          I feel there's just no place for me there.

          President Barack Obama - #44

          by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:48:14 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  i hear you loud & clear. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            homogenius, DianaR

            See also Dogemperor, who grew up in a religious extremist household and had to walk away.  Dog's diaries have done a great job of exposing religious extremisms in general.  

            I wonder if it's possible that the solutions to the issues in the black churches could be similar to the solutions to the issues in extremist denominations in general.  Maybe there is a basis for collaboration between you & Dogemperor on this.  

            And I wonder about this:  are there progressive black churches out there, whose pastors and congregations could take on this issue and do some kind of outreach to the pastors and congregations of churches that are engaged in homophobic bigotry?  That would be a good place to start.  

            Also this: maybe it's time to draw the parallels between the black struggle and the gay struggle, and do it so closely and so explicitly that it causes heads to explode among bigoted black folks.  In other words, have the big freakout and get it over with.  For example, did you know the origin of the word "faggot"?  "Small pieces of kindling, used to start or stoke a bigger fire."  Gay people were used as "faggots" to stoke the fires in the Inquisition when witches were burned.  No shit, for real.  

            The medieval Inquisition was a gay holocaust as well as a womens' holocaust.  See also the history of the "pink triangle" in Nazi Germany and the concentration camps, including medical experiments, including human vivisection.  Put these stories up in parallel with stories of the black holocaust of slavery.  

            At the same time, put the expressions of racism from the gay community up in parallel with the same stuff from the most fascistic of the rightie wingers in general.  Cause some heads to explode there as well.  Rub everyones' noses in it equally.  Make them all puke out their bad attitudes until they get all of it out of their systems.  

            Once we get through the "exploding heads & freakouts" phase, perhaps things will settle down just a bit.  Here I'm counting on the possibility that people who freak out and go on hate-binges will come down from that, and then think about what they said and how they said it, and frankly feel some shame about that, and then do better.

            In any case we need to deal with this in the dKos community, since this place has played an important role in the election.  If nothing else, you & I & others who agree, can attempt to be coolheaded voices of reason when we run into racism & homophobia around here.  

          •  How about starting by not making global (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DianaR

            generalizations about the black community.  

            I don't deny your experience with however you define the black community.  But, I think it's safe to say that you don't mean all 30 million or so AAs are homophobic.

            So, by black community, who exactly are you talking about?

            Black churches?  Less educated, older black persons?  Religious black persons?  Black men?  Black women?  Older black men?  Young black men?  Middle class blacks?  Working class blacks?  Southern blacks?  African immigrants?  College educated blacks?  Black professionals?  Blacks who live in urban, segregated neighborhoods?  Blacks who live in upscale, integrated neighborhoods?  

            •  I didn't say all were homophobic. What I did say (0+ / 0-)

              is that the response to homophobia in the black community is starkly contrasted in the progressive movement with the response to homophobia in the white evangelical and mormon communities.

              And yet it's precisely the same.

              That said, the black community cannot be disentangled from the black church. They are, by and large, the same thing.

              Does that mean everyone? Of course not. But when you're talking about that many, it's not an unfair generalization.

              President Barack Obama - #44

              by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 10:38:55 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  It is an unfair and vague generalization. (0+ / 0-)

                You are painting with a broad brush when you talk about the black community or the black church.  

                Let me ask this question another way - in your personal experience with homophobia among blacks, what patterns do you see in the kinds of persons engaging in homophobic behavior and statements?  Black men?  women?  Older persons?  Younger persons?  Etc.  

                •  All. Old, young, Men, Women. (0+ / 0-)

                  Definitely Church goers, some who definitely didn't seem like they were.

                  Sports people, rappers, movie stars, you name it. The homophobia cuts across all walks of life in the black community.

                  President Barack Obama - #44

                  by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:49:22 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  but, how is it different from homophobia in (0+ / 0-)

                    other communities?  Homophobia cuts across all walks of life in many other communities.  You seem to imply that there's something worse about homophobia in the black community.  You're not saying that, are you?  

                    Aside from celebrities, I asked you about your personal experiences.  Without getting into specific details, where and when did you encounter homophobia among other blacks?  At your high school?  In your church?  At your college?  In cities?  In cities in the midwest?  The west?  East?  Among family members?  What percentage of black people you know are homophobic?  

                    I'm not asking these questions to pry, but to bring your generalization down to earth.  

                    •  That's precisely not what I'm saying. (0+ / 0-)

                      I'm discussing specifically the starkly different reaction in the progressive community, particularly here at DKos, to homophobia in the religiously driven mormon and white evangelical communities vs. the religiously driven black community.

                      The only difference I can see is that the black community is a pillar of the democratic coalition.

                      Now that said, I encountered homophobia from other blacks at school, church, NYC in general, family members in the north and south, friends.

                      If I had to gauge the number homophobic blacks, or at least blacks who had a negative reaction when I came out, it'd have to be near universal.

                      Were there exceptions? Certainly. But they were just that. Exceptions.

                      President Barack Obama - #44

                      by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 12:41:41 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

      •  The black church is NOT organized (0+ / 0-)

        While I am no longer a member of the "black church" I know for a fact that there is no Organized black church. With no widespread agenda like for intance the LDS. Please give me a dollar for every store front demoniation and I would be a rich woman.
                                                           While you diary has merits, it once again is myopic in its vision. It demonizes the whole black community as homophobic, while that is only the partial truth. When I grew up in a pentecostal holiness church, there were many gay people there. Everyone knew there were gay, they were never turned away. They were included and part of the community and its activities.  Mind you this was a pentecostal holiness church I wonder if anyone will understand the implications of this.

        It was this example in my church that made me as a teenager more accepting of all people. As an adult woman, liberal educated and now living in New York, no longer religious. I think that it is  a shame that so many African Americans voted for prop 8 but to paint a whole community as rabid homophobes is just nearsided bullshit. It is just more complicated than that.

        We could get in a for tit for tat. White gay male priveldge, affluence in the gay community and their participation in gentrification, and the exploitation of minoritiy communities. But, I won't go there.....

        •  I didn't say all were homophobic. What I did say (0+ / 0-)

          is that the response to homophobia in the black community is starkly contrasted in the progressive movement with the response to homophobia in the white evangelical and mormon communities.

          And yet it's precisely the same.

          That said, the black community cannot be disentangled from the black church. They are, by and large, the same thing. I definitely know you understand that reality.

          Does that mean everyone? Of course not. But when you're talking about that many, it's not an unfair generalization.

          President Barack Obama - #44

          by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 10:40:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Then how about you follow all the links Yalin (7+ / 0-)

      provided. How about you listen-- really listen-- to the experiences of black gay men and women with homophobia in the AA community instead of saying "it's just one exit poll, it doesn't mean anything."

      I personally highly recommend both Historically Black Homophobia and The Worst Speech of my Life, but linked above, as a primer on what it's like for the people most hurt as we continue to ignore this problem: Black Gays and Lesbians.

      •  Black, straight, Christian and for gay rights (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SDuvall, Roberlin, kir

        Can you explain how I being all of the above can exist given Yalin's comments and your own suggesting that the black community unique in it's intolerance of homosexuals?

        Homophobia is a problem among several communities and I don't buy that singling out any one community will make that problem go away. Engaging the supplier of intolerant positions against gay rights, the church directly through outreach and political discourse just might help.

        Yalin and yourself don't appear willing to take that step, so it's hard for some people to understand what you're trying to accomplish.

        •  Because what's true of a community (0+ / 0-)

          isn't true of every member, and no one-- not I and not Yalin-- has stated or implied otherwise.

          Look, four days ago LGBT rights suffered a stunning setback at the same moment that an AA president was elected, and when people saw the exit polls in CA and FL, it was shocking to a lot of people and a wake-up call for many others. It has been believe for a long time that the problems with homophobia in the AA community are more serious than in the population as a whole; this seeming evidence of the truth of that is compounded by the fact that AA's are the most overwhelmingly democratic minority, and a group that on all other gay rights issues is a fairly consistent ally despite personal feelings on the morality of homosexuality.

          What has passed in the past few days are attempts to figure out how to start a necessary discussion. You feel singled out? I'm sorry; I think that the strategies of engagning the AA community on this subject will necessarily be different than the stragtegies for dealing with white evangelicals. Do you disagree?

          I further believe that the AA community will be more receptive to supporting marriage equality than will white evangelicals. Do you disagree?

          I'd argue that what you're seeing is the very opposite of racism: this discussion is occuring because we believe that there is far more hope, for more reason to think that religious AAs can be convinced on the cause of marriage equality than can the population as a whole.

          •  People are singling out blacks. (0+ / 0-)

            And it is racist.  Because of that one, stupid exit poll.  When have exit polls now become sacred, holy, unassailable truth?  Sure wasn't in 2004.

            Anyway, blacks are being singled out because the debate over the passage of Prop 8 have been overwhelmingly framed as a discussion on the role of AAs in ensuring its passage.  I haven't seen very many diaries talking about the need to educate Latinos, white moderate republicans, younger white christian evangelicals, Asian Americans, Mormons, etc.  

            •  It's not racist (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Killer of Sacred Cows

              you can't talk about everything at once. A confluence of events have made this the logical thing to talk about now.

              When McClurkin happened, we tried to have conversations on homophobia and the AA community, and we were silenced by cries of "that's racist." Sorry, bub. It's not gonna happen again. If you think I'm racist for wanting to talk about it, I frankly have no use for you.

              And conversations of how to deal with homophobia in general, while perhaps sometimes useful, are a different animal from coversations on how to deal with homophobia with a community.

              And again-- most importantly from my perspective-- this is a conversation we're having because, in the wake of prop 8, black gays and lesbians have wanted to talk about this. Pam Spaulding. TerrenceDC. Keith Boykin.

              Tell me: are they racist for wanting to have this conversation? Is Yalin?

              •  It is racist, when virtually ALL diaries/blogs (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lisa66, kir, DianaR

                are obsessed with AA's and homophobia.  

                I'm not saying we need to talk about everything at once in one diary.  But, do we need every single diary to be dissecting the moral flaws of one racial group?  Of course not.  And yet, the fact that the blogs have been overwhelmed by such singularly obsessive scapegoating is clear evidence of racism, subtle and not-so-subtle, at work.  

                It's the same way that anti-immigrant xenophobes just "happen" to focus their hate on Latino immigrants.

                It's the same way that those who fear terrorists obsess about Islamic terrorists.

                It's the same way people who rail against welfare recipients obsess about black welfare recipients.

                It's the same way that homophobes blame gays for the AIDS crisis.

                The passage of Prop 8 was multi-causal and interconnected.  Yet, the assessment of what went wrong by the left has been singularly focused on one supposed cause (AAs), primarily because of ONE stupid exit poll, and because somehow people are making some arbitrary (racist?) connection between AA support for Obama and AA support for Prop 8.  

            •  You've missed the point of this diary [nt] (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Killer of Sacred Cows

              President Barack Obama - #44

              by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 10:41:28 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  About that exit poll (0+ / 0-)

              Comfort the disturbed. Disturb the comfortable.

              by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 01:51:42 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  That was long and full of equations (0+ / 0-)

                This result may very well not be valid for the entire black population, as it was a subset of the black community. But it is valid when applied to black voters, and it's still pointing out a huge problem area. Whether or not it was all blacks is irrelevant. We're talking about the population of black voters. Let's be very specific about that, okay?

                On the other hand, black voters are part of black communities

                You miss the entire point of my belittling of that stupid exit poll as a basis for white gay male racist scapegoating of black people.  

                Let's assume the number is valid.  My point is this: so fucking what?  What do those numbers prove about how AA's in California feel about a complex issue such as gay marriage?  Very little.  You'd need more polling asking WHY they voted for the proposition to start to get some idea of what that vote could mean.  

                That is the racism of this obsession on dissecting the black vote on prop 8 under a microscope.  For just one racial group, their vote is somehow proof of the homophobia and gay hatred of the entire black community in the U.S.  So, while the black vote on prop 8 is being used to label, scapegoat, defame, demean, attack, and impugn the moral character of one racial group, those other groups that voted for it in droves are not put under the same microscope, and having gross generalizations and stereotypes being made about their ethnic or other group identity.  

                Do you understand?  I'm sure you probably don't, but I'll try to explain one more time.  Your desire to prove that there is homophobia in the black community based on one exit poll is itself racist.  

                It's the same way that freepers who challenge Obama's American citizenship are racist by challenging Obama's citizenship in the first place, but don't raise a peep about McCain's citizenship status, when there are legitimate questions about his eligibility to run for president.

                It's the same way freepers challenge Obama's love of America because he went to a black church with a pastor with critical political views about the U.S.  But, they have no problem with Sarah Palin palling around with freaky pastors and fringe lunatic Alaska secessionists.  

                It's the same stupid way that the dumb-ass mainstream media used exit polls to talk about "hard working white working class people" are racists and won't vote for Obama because he's black, and therefore Obama is doomed because exit polls prove white working class are racist haters of black people.  

        •  You've missed the point of this diary. [nt] (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Killer of Sacred Cows

          President Barack Obama - #44

          by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 10:41:12 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Can we find a way to convince, and not condemn? (13+ / 0-)

    This is the key for me. If someone voted for Proposition 8 because they are convinced that same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue, or an issue of equality of persons before the law, then it will do no good to yell at them that they are denying others their civil rights or equal treatment, because being yelled at is not the same as being persuaded. Very frequently, it leads to the opposite effect.

    As I have said before in other comments, what the debate on Daily Kos post-Proposition 8 throws open is the inability of LGBT rights advocates to speak to people who are of other beliefs, other opinions, in a language that is capable of swaying them.

    And that's why the shrill judgmentalism about the issue I keep hearing is so counterproductive. Because the people being called bigots are the ones in whose hands lie the power.

    Everyone should think carefully about the harm that's being done here.

    "It's like we weren't made for this world, But I wouldn't really want to meet someone who was." --Of Montreal

    by andydoubtless on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:45:51 PM PST

    •  Sorry, I've got only 1 rec, but here it is. (6+ / 0-)

      You speak for me. Well done!

      As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

      by ticket punch on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:47:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The message of tolerance and understanding (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Killer of Sacred Cows

      toward the AA community regarding LGBT rights cuts to the core of the message of this diary.

      Do you understand what I'm referring to?

      President Barack Obama - #44

      by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 10:42:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Perfectly. It's why I did not recommend or tip (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ticket punch

        your diary.

        "It's like we weren't made for this world, But I wouldn't really want to meet someone who was." --Of Montreal

        by andydoubtless on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 12:10:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think you've understood. Let's try this (0+ / 0-)

          again. Just what precisely do you believe has been the reaction of the progressive movement toward the mormons and white evangelicals, juxtaposed to the reaction to the black community?

          Why do you believe that has occurred? And why do you believe the black community reacts the way it does toward gays and lesbians?

          If you can answer those questions truthfully and honestly, you'll have understood. And it doesn't end in a tip or rec. It simply ends in true understanding of the point I'm making about the black community and progressive squeamishness when discussing any and all things black.

          President Barack Obama - #44

          by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 12:37:39 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Now. About race and homophobia. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ticket punch

            In brief because it is late and this is getting pointless. I read the appeals to boycott and demonstrate against Mormon and evangelical churches, and I frankly don't think that's a good idea either because it comes off as threatening and as intimidation to people who have not made up their mind or are persuadable.

            So my personal position is consistent with respect to African Americans as it is with any other group that may have supported the propostion at the polls.

            Now, that said, yes I'm very aware of the problems and faced by African Americans who are also gay and lesbian, and have been familiar with the work of Audre Lorde for at least fourteen years before you wrote this diary, so I hardly appreciate your assumption that I'm dependent on you for exposure to these issues.

            Yes, there is homophobia in the African American community, as there is homophobia in other communities in the United States. In the case of African Americans, some of the intensity of these feelings has to do with the fact that power relations exercised between dominant and subordinate groups include the sexual use of women from the subordinate group, the destruction of families, and the pervasive feelings of emasculation described by people like the African psychoanalyst Frantz Fanon.

            As a result, anxieties about power are focused by the subordinate group on the thing most within their power, the body. And some men in these circumstances develop the idea that sexual passivity in a man is heinous because it's a kind of surrender of power that is voluntary in addition to the surrender of power that is coerced by the dominant group, that is forced by society. And everything I've just described you can find in the work of psychoanalysts, feminists and queer theorists building from Fanon.

            So once again, I'm hardly new to these questions.

            And what I would reiterate to you is what good does any of this do?

            In a democracy, you have to talk to the people you disagree with if you're going to convince them. What I see that is missing in this debate is a set of strategies that is capable of winning what is ultimately a democratic struggle.

            "It's like we weren't made for this world, But I wouldn't really want to meet someone who was." --Of Montreal

            by andydoubtless on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 01:07:11 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  A few things. (0+ / 0-)

              1)

              Now, that said, yes I'm very aware of the problems and faced by African Americans who are also gay and lesbian, and have been familiar with the work of Audre Lorde for at least fourteen years before you wrote this diary, so I hardly appreciate your assumption that I'm dependent on you for exposure to these issues.

              I never said you were dependent. But having an academic understanding vs. a visceral understanding are two different things. This diary was written from that viewpoint.

              You can accept or reject it, and the commentary of the other gay blacks I linked to (and there are many out there. this is just a snippet). That is certainly your choice.

              2)

              Yes, there is homophobia in the African American community, as there is homophobia in other communities in the United States. In the case of African Americans, some of the intensity of these feelings has to do with the fact that power relations exercised between dominant and subordinate groups include the sexual use of women from the subordinate group, the destruction of families, and the pervasive feelings of emasculation described by people like the African psychoanalyst Frantz Fanon.

              As a result, anxieties about power are focused by the subordinate group on the thing most within their power, the body. And some men in these circumstances develop the idea that sexual passivity in a man is heinous because it's a kind of surrender of power that is voluntary in addition to the surrender of power that is coerced by the dominant group, that is forced by society. And everything I've just described you can find in the work of psychoanalysts, feminists and queer theorists building from Fanon.

              Yes, that is certainly part of the problem. One of the biggest parts of the problem is the intertwining of the church as political/spiritual bedrock of the black community.

              Not to mention the fact that many blacks still see homosexuality, HIV, etc as the problem of white men, not blacks.

              3)

              And what I would reiterate to you is what good does any of this do?

              In a democracy, you have to talk to the people you disagree with if you're going to convince them. What I see that is missing in this debate is a set of strategies that is capable of winning what is ultimately a democratic struggle.

              The whole point of this diary is that people in the progressive movement do not talk honestly and coherently about homophobia and the black community. A community that happens to be a very powerful pillar of the democratic coalition.

              Until that dialogue is opened in an honest fashion, there will be no progress on this front. That is the good that this diary is trying to accomplish.

              President Barack Obama - #44

              by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 01:13:25 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  My last response. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ticket punch

                And I'm going to try to end on a relatively positive note because I concede you mean well. In the end, you can either diagnose or you can converse. You can either develop descriptive theories, or you can try to figure out the pitch that will bring the people you need to convince over to your side. But in the end, that's a matter of listening as much as it talking. Because you can't theorize your way to reinventing part of the electorate. And even to educate the electorate, in a very important way you have to have their consent.

                Honestly, it's not progressives who need to be having this conversation. Honestly, the real tragedy is that everyone in this debate agrees about same-sex marriage. It's who we are not talking to that's the problem. It's who we are not engaging. It's how we engage them that will determine whether or not there is same-sex marriage in California or anywhere in 2011 or 2013 or whenever.

                Remember how Bill Clinton said you don't get the luxury of making peace with your friends? Well, you don't have the luxury of deciding political debates with the people who agree with you.

                So we either figure out how to engage the other side, or we get used to losing.

                "It's like we weren't made for this world, But I wouldn't really want to meet someone who was." --Of Montreal

                by andydoubtless on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 01:27:05 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You've gotten the precise point of this diary :) (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Killer of Sacred Cows

                  So we either figure out how to engage the other side, or we get used to losing.

                  The point is that until progressives can speak honestly and powerfully with themselves about homophobia in a friendly block, they cannot speak honestly and powerfully, engage the other side as it were, to the black community.

                  For example, I could never have come out to my friends and family if I wasn't comfortable in my own skin enough to do it. And right now, that just isn't the case with progressives. Progressives are not comfortable talking about these issues without resorting to recriminations, defensiveness, cries of racism, etc.

                  This discussion between the two of us is precisely the point of this diary. To start the discussion in an adult fashion, certainly not to answer the question and solve the meaning of life.

                  Because if we already knew the answer, we'd have the black community supporting gay rights by a 100-0 margin.

                  This diary is all I can do on that front. Thanks for engaging. :)

                  President Barack Obama - #44

                  by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 01:33:06 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  You've gotten the precise point of this diary :) (0+ / 0-)

                  So we either figure out how to engage the other side, or we get used to losing.

                  The point is that until progressives can speak honestly and powerfully with themselves about homophobia in a friendly block, they cannot speak honestly and powerfully, engage the other side as it were, to the black community.

                  For example, I could never have come out to my friends and family if I wasn't comfortable in my own skin enough to do it. And right now, that just isn't the case with progressives. Progressives are not comfortable talking about these issues without resorting to recriminations, defensiveness, cries of racism, etc.

                  This discussion between the two of us is precisely the point of this diary. To start the discussion in an adult fashion, certainly not to answer the question and solve the meaning of life.

                  Because if we already knew the answer, we'd have the black community supporting gay rights by a 100-0 margin.

                  This diary is all I can do on that front. Thanks for engaging. :)

                  President Barack Obama - #44

                  by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 01:33:41 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Stupid internet connection. Double posted by (0+ / 0-)

                  accident.

                  President Barack Obama - #44

                  by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 01:35:04 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Something for you to consider: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kir

        This is from another comment in response to something I wrote tonight.

        You fail to stand up to bullies.  That is cowardice.  Smiling at bullies and pretending they are just uninformed, not evil, only guarantees you will be their doormat for the remainder of your life.  

        The Southern blacks, in fact, for two generations smiled at white racists, and looked at the ground when white folks passed by, and accepted separate but equal, and what did that behavior earn them?  100 years of continuous discrimination.

        As an African American gay man, reading this description of the duress endured by African Americans under Jim Crow described as cowardice, reading the description of what they endured as the consequence of some moral failing on their part, does this affect your opinion of the side you've chosen in this debate?

        African Americans are being scapegoated over Proposition 8, no question about it. What we are arguing over here is 2 percent of the vote. That represents the percentage shift in support for Proposition 8 had African Americans only supported it at the same percentage the rest of the population of California did. And yet here we are, debating this issue as if the only people who voted on the question at all were African Americans. It is scapegoating, pure and simple. And as that block quote should demonstrate, it's getting pretty ugly.

        "It's like we weren't made for this world, But I wouldn't really want to meet someone who was." --Of Montreal

        by andydoubtless on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 12:41:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yep, just as I feared. You definitely missed the (0+ / 0-)

          point of this diary. I'm not scapegoating AAs. In fact I specifically mention that point and toss it down in the diary:

          By the number of tips and recs and "Hear Hear!!"-style comments, one could say that Kossacks were very much against those who would push for discrimination and bigotry toward gay people.

          Until it was discovered that the other group pushing for Prop 8 as much as the mormons was the black community. By a 70-30 margin in California and a 71-29 margin in Florida, black voters approved the stripping of gay rights. 65-70% of blacks across the nation do not support equal rights for gays and lesbians.

          Does this mean that without black support those rights-banning laws wouldn't have been passed? Of course not. The margins were too large and the black voting community not large enough to make the difference.

          What is important, however, is the fact that a historically oppressed and downtrodden minority voted overwhelmingly to keep another minority oppressed and downtrodden.

          President Barack Obama - #44

          by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 12:44:08 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I didn't say you were. I said it was happening. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ticket punch

            And I would appreciate you having the decency of reading my comments before you accuse me of not understanding your diary. You don't even respond to the quoted material, which is the point of my writing it.

            "It's like we weren't made for this world, But I wouldn't really want to meet someone who was." --Of Montreal

            by andydoubtless on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 12:46:34 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I read your quotes. The bulk of your response, (0+ / 0-)

              however, was that AAs are being scapegoated. And you tied the quote into that scapegoating.

              That is just not where I've gone with this in any way shape or form.

              President Barack Obama - #44

              by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 12:49:58 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  But you are fine with the company of those who (0+ / 0-)

                have gone there, and you refuse to denounce their hateful, disgusting words.

                BTW, see above for a more substantive response.

                "It's like we weren't made for this world, But I wouldn't really want to meet someone who was." --Of Montreal

                by andydoubtless on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 01:09:01 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks. (7+ / 0-)

    I'd like to think that we are mature enough to take a good hard honest look at ourselves. Hypocrisy is certainly not exclusive to conservatives.

    I applaud your courage in writing this post.

    There are, in every age, new errors to be rectified and new prejudices to be opposed. -Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

    by slksfca on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:46:41 PM PST

  •  Where's your evidence that black Christians are (10+ / 0-)

    any more homophobic than white Christians?????

    Especially when adjusting for even broader branch of Christianity (say, Catholic, Protestant, LDS); Catholics seem to be less whatever about their church's doctrine given its virulent anti-abortion position and yet most are pro-choice.

    I've yet to see any such evidence.

    Hell, in Arkansas, the opposite seems to be true, and on an issue far more direct to whether someone's a homophobe or not.

    Because, since we basically violate the 1st amendment church and state separation when it comes to marriage (we recognize civil marriages performed by clergy, for instance, and call it marriage, a traditional component of religion [though of course one man one woman wasn't exactly traditional marriage]  instead of, yeah, a civil union for civil rights), we've created a situation where non-homophobes feel like changes in the definition of marriage is government messing with their religion.

    However, for adoption (the issue on the Arkansas ballot), there's no such argument except a homophobic one.

    And blacks only voted for Arkansas Initiative 1 by 8 points; whites voted for it by 16 points.

    Of course, in Arkansas, pretty much everyone's a Christian (and the overwhelmingly majority of Protestant) regardless of race.

    Whereas California has a significant number of Jews, and a far more significant percentage of non-religious people, the vast majority of whom are white-whereas black Californians are still nearly all Christians.

    "you ought to be ashamed of yourself, person who loves to tell your 'hat story' with OPOL. Grow up."

    by DemocraticLuntz on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:46:42 PM PST

    •  They are not more homphobic (7+ / 0-)

      they are the SAME.  Its not a fucking race issue, its a fucking relgion issue.

      http://politicz.wordpress.com/

      by GlowNZ on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:50:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

        •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

          I thought it was an age issue.

          "...the fundamentals of our economy are strong"- John Sidney McCain 09/15/08

          by Shhs on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:03:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yea that too (0+ / 0-)

            My point is mostly that you can't look at one thing and say "it's all this this is all that matters."

            Religion and education are big issues. But I can't believe that people are saying that the way to reach out to AA Evangelicals on this issue should be no different, and the expected results no different, than with White Evangelicals.

      •  Exactly exactly exactly (9+ / 0-)

        You want to find bigotry and homophobia? Look in a church. Not all churches, of course, but that's where it starts: in churches.

        What do you call a parent that believes in abstinence only sex ed? A Grandparent.

        by ChurchofBruce on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:53:35 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I would agree, and that's why I think people (6+ / 0-)

        are right to call out those who've been focusing on the blacks rather than "the Christians" (also a broad brush, but one that accurately pinpoints the proximate cause of the vote)

        "you ought to be ashamed of yourself, person who loves to tell your 'hat story' with OPOL. Grow up."

        by DemocraticLuntz on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:57:23 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm glad I'm not alone. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Roberlin

          Man, it's been a tough night!

        •  it's not The Christians: it's The Puritans. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          homogenius, Elise

          Let's be quite clear about this: Jesus' words, actions, and teachings provide no basis for bigotry of any kind.  

          The problem is not Christianity, it's Puritanism, an ideology that is pathologically obsessed with sex and with other peoples' sex lives, and with denying physical pleasure in general.  

          Puritanism was what gave rise to contraceptive bans, prohibitionism, antiabortionism, the "Sunday blue laws," and a host of other evils.   Puritanism is still a strong force, as evidenced by the mass reaction of outrage against two seconds of Janet Jackson's bare breasts on TV.  

          The only good that ever came of Puritanism was the invention of the ice-cream sundae, as a means of circumventing puritan Sunday blue laws that forbade the selling of ice-cream sodas at drugstore lunch counters on Sundays.  The image of highschool sweethearts sharing an ice cream soda with two straws, which today we take as cute and oldfashioned, was in its day seen as a real threat to the sanctity of the day of worship, and so the puritans made it illegal, and the drugstores countered by inventing a new ice-cream treat that was not covered by the law.  (Yeah that really happened, look it up.)  But the lesson here is that puritans will go to absolutely insane lengths to stamp out anything they think has anything to do with sex or physical pleasure in general.  

          We have got to confront puritanism in all of its forms, and destroy it completely as a social force.  Until we do that, these issues and more will continue to recur.  

          The conclusion to the story should be that "puritanical personality disorder" becomes a psychiatric diagnosis, and one day there will be a cure.

          Christianity, as well as civil society, will be better off when puritans are taking their medicine regularly and not obsessing about others' lives.    

    •  What percentage of (5+ / 0-)

      white evangelical christians are democrats? What percentage of African Americans?

      That's at least part of the difference between those two groups, and part of the reason that it makes sense to discuss stragtegies for approaching these two groups differently, and that we should have different expectations about how these two groups would react to a civil rights issue.

    •  For instance, white evangelicals were 81-19 (10+ / 0-)

      for it, and at l7% of the population, that was enough to swing it.

      We could also blame-

      the married (31% of polled): 68 FOR, 32 Against

      "you ought to be ashamed of yourself, person who loves to tell your 'hat story' with OPOL. Grow up."

      by DemocraticLuntz on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:56:22 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nope let's just blame the blacks (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lost and Found

        Black ppl are apparently the only hypocrites in Cali.  For the record I'm a religious person, I think every person who shares my religion who voted for Prop 8 is a hypocrite.

        "...the fundamentals of our economy are strong"- John Sidney McCain 09/15/08

        by Shhs on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:17:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think almost no one is blaming the blacks (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          homogenius

          I'm really getting tired of seeing that claim.

          Rather, people are looking at why the blacks-- historically proponents of gay and lesbian rights despite issues with homophobia within their community-- are breaking with history on this issue.

          It's not striking when a group that reliably votes republican (white evangelicals) votes against gay marriage. It's far more striking when a group that reliably votes democratic does. Is that really such a difficult concept for people?

      •  DL (0+ / 0-)

        You seem to be a person with a good handle on the stats, so I'd like to ask you what you think of the accuracy of the field poll a week prior that showed Prop 8 failing 49/44%?  If it was reasonably accurate, what explanation is there for all of the 7% of undecideds to have gravitated to the no position? Something about this bugs me; maybe I'm just not understanding it properly.

        Thank you, Howard Dean

        by dharmafarmer on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:53:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Um.... (0+ / 0-)

        For instance, white evangelicals were 81-19

        And your point is??????

        You see - blacks are overwhelmingly DEMOCRATS - and are SUPPOSED TO BE IN FAVOR OF CIVIL RIGHTS and EQUALITY.

        Since when did the same apply to WHITE EVANGELICALS?????

        Please try to stay with the tour group. (eyeroll)

        I don't have "issues". I have a full subscription!

        by GayIthacan on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 10:51:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Actually, your initial question is largely the (0+ / 0-)

      point of this diary. Particularly when contrasted with the results of the progressive movement's response.

      See where I'm coming from?

      President Barack Obama - #44

      by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:49:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  If they didn't vote as you would have them vote (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ArtSchmart

    it means you didn't explain it right. End of story.

    If you ask the right questions and listen, really listen, to the responses, you will get it right next time.

    As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

    by ticket punch on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:47:00 PM PST

    •  You've missed the point of this diary then [nt] (0+ / 0-)

      President Barack Obama - #44

      by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 10:43:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly. Diary makes the wrong point. n/t (0+ / 0-)

        As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

        by ticket punch on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 06:41:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  If you don't understand the point this diary is (0+ / 0-)

          making, you certainly can't prescribe a different approach. Ducking the problems of the black community, and the progressive squeamishness in dealing with that truth, is what this diary is about.

          President Barack Obama - #44

          by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 08:38:17 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I understood it. Thanks for asking. n/t (0+ / 0-)

            As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

            by ticket punch on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 08:58:27 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  If you understood that, then you'd understand (0+ / 0-)

              that deflecting away from the real problem isn't the solution.

              It's simply more of the same problem.

              President Barack Obama - #44

              by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:09:32 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You didn't explain it well enough. (0+ / 0-)

                That's the problem.

                As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

                by ticket punch on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:10:35 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Do you maintain that same conviction when it (0+ / 0-)

                  comes to white evangelicals and mormons?

                  Or is that explanation solution only reserved for blacks?

                  President Barack Obama - #44

                  by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:13:02 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes. Thanks for asking. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                    As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

                    by ticket punch on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:16:50 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Then this diary isn't directed at you. The same (0+ / 0-)

                      cannot be said for the larger progressive community here at DKos given the responses I've seen in this and other diaries.

                      President Barack Obama - #44

                      by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:35:21 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Go ahead, damn us all. And be sure to let us know (0+ / 0-)

                        how far that gets you.

                        I don't know what those bastards did to you, but it must have been horrible for you to lash out the way you have been. I wish you well.

                        As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

                        by ticket punch on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:44:38 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I'm not looking to get anywhere. I'm just telling (0+ / 0-)

                          it how it is. People can use that, or not, to come to their own conclusions.

                          This diary discusses the realities of many gay black men and women and talks about it as brutally and honestly as possible.

                          You can take that however you wish.

                          President Barack Obama - #44

                          by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:52:34 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  So I see. Enjoy your Prop 8 then. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                            As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

                            by ticket punch on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:54:45 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It's nothing that I will enjoy. I live in NY. (0+ / 0-)

                            That isn't the point however. That said, if you don't want to look at this problem in the black community honestly, that's your prerogative.

                            If you do, then hopefully the experiences of those of us who are gay men and women in the black community will help you on that path.

                            It isn't a pretty path I'll tell you that much.

                            With that, I bid you adieu. :)

                            President Barack Obama - #44

                            by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:57:03 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Then you have no direct experience (0+ / 0-)

                            of what you're inveighing against. I appreciate the clarification.

                            As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

                            by ticket punch on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:58:57 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  To say that I have no direct experience of what (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm talking about clearly shows that you haven't read and comprehended this diary.

                            I'll just leave it at that with you.

                            President Barack Obama - #44

                            by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 10:00:34 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I comprehended it perfectly. (0+ / 0-)

                            I assert that it's utterly wrongheaded and counterproductive.

                            And since I now learn that you don't even live in California, the entire purpose of this diary is at least fully revealed: pot-stirring sensation seeking behavior.

                            Mission accomplished.

                            As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

                            by ticket punch on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 10:03:20 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ahh. Because to understand and deconstruct (0+ / 0-)

                            black homophobia and the progressive response to it, as a black gay male formerly embedded deeply in the black church no less, is relegated only to those who live in California.

                            Right......

                            President Barack Obama - #44

                            by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 10:05:17 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It is when it's Prop 8. You know, that thing (0+ / 0-)

                            mentioned in the title of the diary. Remember that?

                            As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

                            by ticket punch on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 10:08:59 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You definitely don't understand, on multiple (0+ / 0-)

                            levels at that.

                            That said, I hope you spend the time to actually reflect on these issues in a non-defensive way. Until that point is reached, there will be no progress on this issue as far as you're concerned.

                            It probably won't be easy for you, that's for sure.

                            Have a good one.

                            President Barack Obama - #44

                            by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 10:12:45 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's your problem right there. How dare you (0+ / 0-)

                            assert that disagreement equals stupidity?

                            As long as you hold that attitude, you've consigned yourself to the margins of society. For the rest of your life.

                            I wish you well, really I do, but you won't get there with that attitude.

                            People here are trying to tell you something. You can damn them, or you can listen and try to learn.

                            As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

                            by ticket punch on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 10:18:29 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Where did I say disagreement equals stupidity? (0+ / 0-)

                            I didn't. I said you didn't understand. That doesn't mean you're stupid.

                            That said, when you make comments that the black gay experience in California with respect to Prop 8 is incomprehensible to those who don't live there, then yes, you do not understand.

                            You definitely fit in the group of people I described in the progressive movement who become overtly defensive when approached on this tender subject. And it's that defensiveness and unwillingness to engage a brutally honest discussion of race and homophobia, and the responses of the progressive movement to both, that keeps this problem from truly being solved.

                            As has been said many times, the first step to a recovery is understanding the underlying problems. I've discussed my own pain, my responses to that pain, and the homophobia of the black community and the squeamish and defensive responses to the black community by the progressive community when it comes to gays and lesbians.

                            When you do the same, let me know. That said, this will be my final comment to you on this subject because until you make that step, we'll never have a common ground on this issue.

                            It took me years to get to that point. I don't expect it from you in a a few days.

                            President Barack Obama - #44

                            by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 10:24:45 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Everywhere. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                            As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

                            by ticket punch on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 10:32:06 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

  •  Here's my simple explanation as to why it passed (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    crose

    A lot of people were confused.  In reading it they probably thought a NO meant they agree to the prop and so voted YES thinking they do approve with the gay community.

    It has happened before where people tend to rush quickly and then after an hour or so later think to themselve, "Did I voted right on that?  What that suppose to be a yes or no?"

    •  Somehow I doubt it. (0+ / 0-)

      I'm from California originally, from a black family and at least 2 of my cousins are gay, one Christian abstaining and the other, well it's something that isn't discussed around his family.

      Many people I know who are Christians just didn't vote on this issue. They couldn't bring themselves to vote either way. That's a good sign, so if people just took a little time to do a little outreach towards the Christian community perhaps things might go differently.

      People didn't do that. Why not?

      "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

      by resa on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:01:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm a white southern (gay) guy FWIW - (7+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    resa, ExStr8, crose, Shhs, tnproud2b, Yalin, gfab

    I agree that homophobia in all its forms should be thoroughly discussed, absolutely, but I don't think throwing around the N word is the answer. I don't think blanket statements about "blacks" are the answer anymore than I think blanket statements about "gays" further any discussion.

    Neither group is mutually exclusive and neither group is a huge monolith.

    I'm getting irritated with THAT aspect of it, honestly. Today I got called a racist or... something... I'm not even sure... just for saying that there are gay racists and gay non-racists.

    It's true though. There are also black homophobic assholes.

    Saying THAT doesn't make me racist, and honestly I couldn't give two shits what color a homophobe is.

    It's the homophobia that bothers me.

    "ENOUGH!" - Barack Obama

    by indiemcemopants on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:49:19 PM PST

  •  And we're to do, what? (0+ / 0-)

    Tell me why should I stand up against hate for those who hate in turn.

    by ronin122 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:51:05 PM PST

  •  Excellent Diary Yalin (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    andreww, homogenius, ExStr8, slksfca, Lauren S

    What I most hope is that people will follow some of the links you provide. I'm afraid from what I've already seen in the comments, though, that we're going to get more of the defensive "this isn't really a problem" reaction.

    Historically Black Homophobia and The Worst Speech of my Life are two of my personal favorites on this subject.

  •  Here's the difference (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ExStr8, droopyd, virginwoolf

    and this is coming from a white, straight atheist so take it what you will :).

    But this is the difference between "blaming" blacks and "blaming" Mormons: nobody chooses to be black. People do choose their religion.

    Now, blaming Black Pentecostals is another thing.

    I don't "blame" for skin color. I do blame for choosing intolerant bigoted nutty religious beliefs. And I don't think that's hypocritical.

    What do you call a parent that believes in abstinence only sex ed? A Grandparent.

    by ChurchofBruce on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:52:12 PM PST

    •  Unfortunately you can't disentangle the black (0+ / 0-)

      church from the black community. The church in the black community is largely the spiritual and political bedrock.

      And that's why it's different.

      President Barack Obama - #44

      by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 10:45:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  A Prop 8 diary worth reading. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ExStr8, justalittlebitcrazy, Lauren S

    I didn't think it could happen.

  •  Good job, Yalin. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ExStr8, slksfca

    I don't understand the fear people have for homosexuals. It is the most irrational fear. All hatred seems to stem from irrational fear. If you are not gay, it won't rub off on you. If your friend has cancer, you won't catch it by being with them. If you don't like the way gay imagery makes you feel, think about something else. If the president is a black man, he isn't going to reintroduce slavery as revenge against white oppression. If you are Christian and don't believe gay people should have the right to marry, go ahead and believe it; but if you have that right as a Christian, gay people should have that right as well. I don't understand this irrational fear. It is primeval, a holdover from a violent time. If you look into a mirror and say "Candyman" three times, the Candyman won't appear. You can't get pregnant by swallowing a watermelon seed. Animals don't talk at midnight on Christmas Eve. Gayness isn't an infection and if gay people can legally marry, the "institution" of marriage won't melt away like an ice cube in a teapot. Marriage, and human beings, are hopefully stronger than that.

    I don't dispute anything you say, Yalin. I commend you for pointing out the truth. But I don't think that the majority of Kossacks would argue against you either. If support 8 money came into California via out of state black churches or organizations, these should be targeted as well as the LDS church.

    My name is Cindy Hussein Rose. I am once again proud to be an American.

    by crose on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:53:18 PM PST

  •  An important diary on an important issue (4+ / 0-)

    Last night in SF it wss clear that there is deep anger at the Mormons, but deep disappointment in the AA community. I think that is the right attitude. We need to turn the AA community away from exclusivity on civil rights and get them to fight alongside the progressive movement. This rift can be healed. But it will take work. And more diaries like this.

    Our work has just begun!

    by MakeChessNotWar on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:55:15 PM PST

  •  If you think Rap is homophobic.............. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ExStr8, DemocraticLuntz, Lauren S

    Reggae is even worse

    "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

    by TheHalfrican on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:55:19 PM PST

  •  Thanks and I definately agree. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    andreww, dedmonds, slksfca

    The hypocrisy has kept me away from these diaries.  You've spoken well and made your case.  I really do appreciate it.

    VOTE McCAIN! The world really is flat.

    by nolalily on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:56:37 PM PST

  •  I hope that members of the Gay and Lesbian + (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BigAlinWashSt

    community are able to obtain the right to marry all over the US in fairly short order. Unfortunately, I think that it is going to take another generation for it to happen. Similar to the situation with Blacks and civil rights, the fight was long and took a few generations of racists to die off before substantial progress was made. Not that the situations are perfectly equivalent.

    For the first time in my adult life, I am really proud of anti-americans! -- jdw112

    by jdw112 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 07:59:32 PM PST

  •  You say: (4+ / 0-)

    By the number of tips and recs and "Hear Hear!!"-style comments, one could say that Kossacks were very much against those who would push for discrimination and bigotry toward gay people.

    Until it was discovered that the other group pushing for Prop 8 as much as the mormons was the black community. By a 70-30 margin in California and a 71-29 margin in Florida, black voters approved the stripping of gay rights. 65-70% of blacks across the nation do not support equal rights for gays and lesbians.

    I'm sorry, I must have missed all the organizing on the part of the African Americans to support Prop 8. How much money did they raise? How many ads did they fund? How many calls did they make during phone banking? How many doors did they knock?

    The Mormon church organized Yes on 8. They funded it. The put ads on TV, radio, everywhere. They phone banked and knocked doors. They were organized. That's how elections are won.

    There is a lot of homophobia in the black community. I'm not going to argue that. BUT - there's a lot of homophobia in many other communities as well.

    And your final sentence I've quoted above - 65-70% of blacks across the nation do not support equal rights for gays and lesbians.

    I think there's an important distinction to make here - first of all, I don't think you know that's an accurate number, but let's assume for a moment it IS an accurate number - it isn't that they don't support equal rights, it's that they don't support marriage. They don't see that as an equal right at this point - and that's because that argument hasn't been made effectively to them. Once that argument has been made then they may very well change their perspectives on marriage and see the ability to marry as an equal right.

    People don't change minds over night...it takes TIME. But I will say this...my mom is uncomfortable with homosexuality, but I have been able to convince her that gay marriage is an equal right and that it should be legal. How did I do that? I started slowly and kept on arguing. I finally got around to asking her, how would you feel if one of your daughters wasn't able to marry the person she loved because she loved another woman...my mom really considered this. It wasn't overnight, but she eventually came to the conclusion that gay marriage should be legal. That doesn't mean she likes the idea of it...it just means that it isn't any of her business who others marry.

    You can't just say, "gay people should be able to get married because I said so..." you have to make an effective argument that will actually reach that individual - and some arguments will work for some people, others not so much.

    •  As I wrote up above to someone else, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      homogenius

      understanding that black homophobia is widespread and pushed by the black church to the point where 65-70% of blacks nationwide do not support gay rights is the key to understand what I've written on this topic.

      It is no different than looking at the mormons or white evangelicals who have the same rates of anti-gay sentiment.

      The only difference in the way the subject is treated by progressives is the fact that, imo, blacks are a pillar of the democratic coalition and have a long history of oppression themselves.

      I think that makes people squeamish to actually call a spade a spade. And until that can be overcome, the root problem will never be fixed.

      President Barack Obama - #44

      by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:07:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And as I commented above - the black church (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        malharden, Shhs, kir

        is NOT monolith. There are plenty of people in black churches who support gay marriage and advocate FOR it.

        •  Except that (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          homogenius, tnproud2b

          places like Trinity are the exception, not the rule.

          I'm going with Yalin and Keith Boykin and TerrenceDC on what the Black Church (by and large) and homosexuality are like.

          I understand your point, Elise, but just because the Black Church isn't a monolith doesn't mean there's not a problem here that needs to be dealt with.

        •  Not enough. The black church is the spiritual and (0+ / 0-)

          political bedrock of the black community. And it is by and large anti-gay.

          In this measure, the black church is indeed a monolith. Are there exceptions to this? Certainly. Just as there are mormons who support gay rights and white evangelicals who support gay rights.

          The difference in response to those communities by the progressive movement, and this is the key argument of this diary, is what is telling however.

          When it comes to white evangelicals and mormons, the first response is to demonize. When it comes to blacks, the first response is to make excuses for and apologize.

          That is what this diary has been about.

          Do you understand that key distinction?

          President Barack Obama - #44

          by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 10:47:58 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Well, good statement, except you (0+ / 0-)

        need to understand that real Christians are democrats.  And real real Christians are those that can also see the difference between religion and government sanctioned acts.

      •  Yes, you compounded your questionable stats. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Elise

        understanding that black homophobia is widespread and pushed by the black church to the point where 65-70% of blacks nationwide do not support gay rights is the key to understand what I've written on this topic.

        I still don't know where your "nationwide" number is coming from.

        I can't call it wrong, because I have no insight into your source...

        "Watch what you watchin'. Fox keeps feeding us toxins. Stop sleeping, start thinking outside of the box and unplug from The Matrix doctrine." -Nas

        by malharden on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:16:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I am not sure that (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      homogenius, droopyd, Yalin

      it is that simple. Homophobia is a theme in African-American culture. Homosexuality is viewed as witchcraft-induced possession in some African cultures and it is outright banned in some African countries. The values that have come from Africa and into present-day America represent a continuation of a very old tradition. The difficulty lies not just with convincing a culture that something should be a right but that it is nothing to be feared.

      My name is Cindy Hussein Rose. I am once again proud to be an American.

      by crose on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:14:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think that's all there is to it. (0+ / 0-)

        Plenty of groups have come to the US from countries that are homophobic. I was in Italy 8 years ago and being openly gay in the town I was in was enough to get you beat up and left on the street to die. Let's look at history - Oscar Wilde didn't have an easy time of it, that's for sure.

        America is a puritan country...that puritanism is still alive and well in a LOT of our opinions - not just African American culture.

        Either way - the only way to change minds is to actively change them...we have to make arguments and persuade.

      •  That's some atrocious reasoning, crose. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        evilene689

        Are you arguing that black american cultural homophobia is rooted in the cultural belief among some African cultures that homosexuality is a witchcraft-induced possession???  

        There are so many things wrong with what you're arguing that it's hard to know where to begin.

        Let's start here.  Please tell me WHICH PARTICULAR African cultures believe in witchcraft induced homosexuality, and please then trace for me how that belief traveled from Africa, across the Atlantic Ocean and over to North America, and how that belief then informed and shaped the culture of African Americans from slavery to 2008.  

        I'd appreciate some links.

    •  I have to tell you (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      homogenius

      I've been hearing this a lot and I know you don't mean it this way, Elise, but it's really sounding to my ears like "homophobia is the fault of gays, and we should feel sorry for the homophobes would weren't properly educated by them."

      •  Then you may need to clean out your ears. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        andydoubtless, SDuvall

        Or your reading comprehension, dedmonds.  

        I haven't seen anyone here imply that homophobia is the fault of gays.  

        People arguing about the need to educate is just accepting the fucking reality of the situation - life is UNFAIR.  Fucked over groups like gays, blacks, women, whathaveyou, have always had the burden of having to prove their humanity and equal worth to the powers in charge.  

        Obama, in running for president, had to accept the fact that he was going to be subject to a higher standard because of his race, and work to educate, rather than complain and engage in racial self-pity.  

        So, here's the choice - whine and complain about how one marginalized group was screwed over by another marginalized group, create further division between two groups that need each other politically, and then ensure that progress toward equality gets set back a decade or two.  

        OR, let go of the nihilistic rage, racism, and self-pity, read up on buddhism, accept that life is unfair, and then go on continue to try to make life a little less unfair by trying to educate and bridge differences between marginalized groups and concentrate righteous energy against the real enemies of justice.  

        •  Gee thanks (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          homogenius

          yea, because I'm known for my nihilism, racism, and self-pity.

          Christ, you're really a piece of work, you know that?

          •  Okay, you're not all those things. Self-pitying (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            andydoubtless

            but not nihilistic.  No comment about the racism part.

            But, that's not my main point.  

            My main point is, no one is trying to blame gay people for homophobia, and the call to educate those who do continue to hold homophobic views is about accepting the reality of oppression and taking constructive action to do justice.  

            How can anyone disagree with that?  

            •  Good Lord (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              homogenius

              you're really persistant with the insults? You seem to imagine you have remarkable insight into who I am based on a handful of blog posts.

              Look: there has been an undercurrent of blaming the victim these past few days. I don't care whether you've seen it. I don't deny the need of the LGBT community to be on the forefront of education; but that doesn't change the fact that there's been an undercurrent of blaming the LGBT community for homophobia that has gone hand-in-hand with attempts to deny that homophobia is a significant problem in the AA community.

              •  chillax, guy. Was being tongue in cheek. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                andydoubtless

                I don't really think you're all those things.  For now, anyway.  j/k.

                I still don't see any undercurrent of blaming gays for homophobia, and no one is denying homophobia is a significant problem in the AA community.  People are just saying there's no reason to single out AA because homophobia is a significant problem in many other communities.  

          •  Don't feed the troll. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dedmonds

            This one isn't worth engaging.

            "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

            by homogenius on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:59:15 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Homophobia is just fear. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Unitary Moonbat, hyper

        People fear what is unknown to them or what is different. Period. That isn't the fault of the person or thing or idea that is different - it's just fear. The only way to put a stop to fear is to spread knowledge - that isn't just the responsibility of gay people - it's everyone's responsibility. Mine too.

        When I went to college one of the first people I met was a guy who was from a small Japanese town. We all went out to the bar in a group...he started walking on the inside of the group - looking at the street with this paranoid look on his face every time a car came by. Finally I asked him what was wrong - he said, "I am afraid of drive by shootings. I see on the tv they happen all over America." He learned something different that night, but if no one had thought to ask him what was wrong...he would have walked in fear all night long. If people don't know any better...they just don't - it's our job to make them know.

        The more public and known homosexuality is, the more people will accept it. Shit...it wasn't all that long ago that interracial marriage became legal and plenty of Americans STILL disapprove of that!

  •  Never Seen the N Word at dKos (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tiponeill, andreww

    I've been here over 4 years. Maybe some troll throws it out occasionally but I've never seen the word here maliciously at all.

    Also, in my county (Santa Cruz) we have less than 3% black electorate but voted down prop 8 by a nearly 3-1 margin. As  a straight white guy, I'm very proud of my county.

    The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by easong on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:04:14 PM PST

    •  straight white guy proud of your white county? (0+ / 0-)

      Some pretty ugly implications in your comment there, easong.  I hope I'm misreading it.  

      •  Eyup. What's wrong with that? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        easong

        Don't think there are any ugly implications there...just demographic facts.

        Majority whites didn't vote for Obama but I'm still proud that enough whites voted for him to win.

      •  You Misinterpret My Pride (0+ / 0-)

        I'm proud not that there are relatively few African-Americans in my county -- I didn't choose to live here for that reason -- but that unlike some predominantly white counties (hello Solano and Sacramento) Santa Cruz was overwhelmingly supportive of our gay and lesbian friends, family, and neighbors.

        The major minority here is Latino and they voted similarly to Latinos statewide. Nonetheless, prop 8 went down by a greater than 70-30 margin. That's a lot of whities saying NO on 8. Way to go, caucasian liberals!

        The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

        by easong on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:20:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Remind them...majority whites voted against Obama (0+ / 0-)

    That should bring them up short.

    •  Omg that is ridiculous (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DemocraticLuntz

      ppl are not always uhm rational.  Is it rational for some GLBT ppl to be racists....NO.  Why'd McCain get the most votes of the GLBT community out of any Republican?

      "...the fundamentals of our economy are strong"- John Sidney McCain 09/15/08

      by Shhs on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:11:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, wow, I totally missed that one. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Elise, proudprogressiveCA, Shhs, Roberlin

        Obama 70 McCain 27

        compared to Kerry 77 Bush 23 (which was slightly better than Gore had done compared to their 2000 exit poll)

        "you ought to be ashamed of yourself, person who loves to tell your 'hat story' with OPOL. Grow up."

        by DemocraticLuntz on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:17:14 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sullivan had it on his site today (0+ / 0-)

          Just more food for thought.  I think black resentment to what they perceive as rich gays has a lot to do w/it as well.  It is probably similar to how some white ppl vote against their own interest to somehow get back at blacks.  Or something like that ; p

          "...the fundamentals of our economy are strong"- John Sidney McCain 09/15/08

          by Shhs on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:20:57 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I've seen attempt to attribute that to race (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          homogenius

          I think that's based on a really poor understanding of politcs in the LGBT community; there are lots of politically conservative LGBT's who vote Democratic only because of LGBT issues. McCain likely appealled to more of them than Bush because they bought the hype about his being moderate.

          I mean, I sure racism moved a few of them (just as it moved a few non-gay white voters), but in the absence of evidence, it's rather ridiculous to try to use this as proof of some kind of endemic problem with racism in the LGBT community that is any more widespread than in the population as a whole.

          •  Well, I don't know - all this racist scapegoating (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lisa66

            of African Americans we've seen this week seem to suggest that there is an endemic problem of racism against blacks within the white LGBT community.  

            •  I've seen very little racist scapegoating (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              homogenius

              I've only seen lots of claims of it.

              I've seen attempts to start conversations about race and homophobia. And I've seen people try to deny it's a problem, and shit down those conversations are racist scapegoating rather than inquiry and analysis.

              But not much racist scapegoating at all.

                •  I didn't say it didn't happen (0+ / 0-)

                  in fact, I've said again and again that there have been idiots saying idiotic things. But I don't think those idiots have been in the majority or even close to it.

                  •  Don't bother. (2+ / 1-)
                    Recommended by:
                    dedmonds, ticket punch
                    Hidden by:
                    Roberlin

                    Seriously--I think this is a troll. Use extreme caution.

                    "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

                    by homogenius on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:30:16 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yea but it's late (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      homogenius

                      and I got nothing better to do tonight.

                    •  Hide-rated for personally insulting troll (0+ / 0-)

                      comment.  

                      Surprise, apparently this troll has been given trusted user status.  

                      •  Happens all the time (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        homogenius

                        you did, however, just engage in HR abuse. You should probably be HRed for it, but frankly I'm pretty sure homogenius is more amused than anything else at your HR.

                        •  Why was it abuse? (0+ / 0-)

                          That was a personally insulting post.  Calling me an "it?"  Falsely accusing me of being a troll?  Please, point to just one comment that is an example of trolling.  

                          And, frankly, I don't care about being called a troll because, when after a lengthy substantive back and forth, if someone starts pulling the "troll card," that to me is a sign that the person calling me a troll have given up reason for ad hominem attacks.  

                          Hey, if you can't address the substance of what someone is saying, call him/her a troll!

                          This scapegoating of blacks is racist, pure and simple.  You may not want to admit that now, but, hopefully, when people start to calm down, they'll look back and start to understand what the racism charge was all about.  

                          I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for you to start engaging in some serious self-examination of your white male privilege and unconscious biases, but, then again, who would have expected some black guy named Barack Hussein Obama would become the 44th prez of the U.S.?

                          •  What arrogance (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            homogenius

                            your conflation of scapegoating and inquiry is ridiculous.

                            Your arrogance at supposing you know anything about me-- arrogance you've shown multiple times throughout this conversation-- is staggering.

                            Your use of the bludgeon of racism in an attempt to shut down this conversation is reprehensible.

                            Happily, I've had numerous fruitful conversations in the past few days that more than make up for the unpleasantness of making your acquaintance.

                          •  You heard the nice troll-- (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            dedmonds

                            You apologize for your penis RIGHT NOW, young man.

                            Bad penis!  Bad, bad penis!!!

                            You should be ashamed of yourself!

                            "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

                            by homogenius on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 10:08:56 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What??? That's totally essentialist. (0+ / 0-)

                            White male privilege isn't due solely because of his (white) dick.  White male privilege is a social construct, whereby white males live in a world where their assumptions rule the world, even when they have no bearing on reality (i.e., assumption about the inferiority of blacks and women).  It's a stubborn rigidity, an inability to see outside of their narrow, cabined perspective.  

                            For example, it's like how those freepers who called Obama a Muslim terrorist can't see and therefore deny the racism of such smears, because in their social reality, they honestly believe it to be perfectly fine and non-racist.  And of course, being "the MAN," that false belief often overpowers the truth through brute force, and becomes the imposed reality for all.  That's how Jim Crow segregation survived for such a long time.  

                            So it is with the way you and your buddy are dismissing my charges of racism, charges i support with evidence and reason, with ad hominem attacks and silly insults.  That way, you don't have to consider even the possibility that, maybe, just maybe, this AA obsession is indeed fueled by some ugly racial prejudices.  

                          •  What utter bullshit. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            dedmonds

                            Neither one of us is obsessed. Now I can't speak for Dedmonds, but I'm offended by the constant repetition of the "gays are blaming blacks" meme around here. It's a lie and I'm tired of it.

                            Moreover, I do know that we are both committed to examining our feelings and beliefs about race and that you don't know enough to make that charge.

                            So why don't you take all that analytical horseshit and shove it. OK? I think you're just here to stir shit up. I don't care what you have to say and I don't want to listen to it. You don't know me and I sure as fuck don't want to know you.

                            kthxbye.

                            "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

                            by homogenius on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 10:33:11 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Perfect example of what I'm talking about. (0+ / 0-)

                            Neither one of us is obsessed. Now I can't speak for Dedmonds, but I'm offended by the constant repetition of the "gays are blaming blacks" meme around here. It's a lie and I'm tired of it.

                            Lessee, people are repeating the SOME "gays are blaming blacks," maybe, just maybe, because some gays are in fact blaming blacks.  Plenty evidence of this, if you just look around a bit.

                            But, you, with your white male privilege, deny reality and assert, "it's a lie!"  And thus, the racism is denied and dismissed as merely the frivolous rantings of a troll like me and other race card playing commenters like Shannikaor highacidity.  It's an effective way for people who identify as non-racists who say racist stuff to reduce cognitive dissonance.

                            For what it's worth (I know, not much coming from a troll stirrer-upper like me), I don't consider either of you to be racists.  Everyone, depending on the situation, can get caught up in various prejudices.  No one is forever trapped, as long as he or she is willing to truly listen to people who call him on his blindness to his prejudices, and try to see the kernel of truth that may lie in his analytical horseshit.

                             

                          •  It's a lie? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Roberlin

                            Here's something to refresh out memories...

                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                          •  And the fact that a few idiots have said shit (0+ / 0-)

                            like that has been used to brush off the honest inquiry that this situation calls for.

                            Don't want to put words into homogenius' mouth, but I'm pretty sure he's not claiming that no one has said idiotic shit; just that the idiotic shit isn't the norm, and shouldn't be used as an excuse not the have a serious conversation about race and homophobia.

                          •  That's a lie =/= that's the norm. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            dedmonds, Roberlin

                            And the fact that homogenious even responded to that comment, in a fashion saying "What's wrong with what that person said?" is troubling to me as a black person.

                          •  agree. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            TheLoneliestMonk

                            And the fact that homogenious even responded to that comment, in a fashion saying "What's wrong with what that person said?" is troubling to me as a black person.

                          •  didn't notice his response (0+ / 0-)

                            just read the comment itself. I don't agree with what he stated in his response.

                            I do think that the extreme statements of some (likely racist) idiots in the LGBT community have been used as an excuse not to have some hard conversations on race and homophobia (conversations which should, incidentally, also address racism in the gay community).

                          •  kudos (0+ / 0-)

                            I do think that the extreme statements of some (likely racist) idiots in the LGBT community have been used as an excuse not to have some hard conversations on race and homophobia (conversations which should, incidentally, also address racism in the gay community).

                            kudos for saying that racism in the gay community ought to be addressed.  Although I wonder when I address racism in some members of the gay community, I get called a troll.  

                            As for conversations on race and homophobia, I haven't seen those conversations.  All I've seen are conversations singularly focused on hyper-scrutinizing and over-generalizing about homophobia among ONE racial group.  That's a conversation about homophobia in some abstract notion of a black community, not a broader discussion about the complex interplay between "race" and homophobia.  

                          •  Stuff it (0+ / 0-)

                            you condescending prick

                          •  I get the sense you're a bit miffed at me. (0+ / 0-)

                            Or am I reading into your comment?

                            On a more serious note, I suggest we call a truce to our little debate.  Don't think it's helping the larger goal of achieving justice and equality for all and in helping repeal Prop 8.  

                            And on that note, my bed and significant other beckon.  Good night.  

                          •  This is the thing... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Roberlin

                            When this brouhaha started after the passage of the amendment, people's comments weren more heated and were more reflected by the one I linked to; many were stating that black people were to blame for the passage of anti-prop 8 due to higher black turnout in this historic election in which we elected Obama.

                            When people balked at the overt racism and finger-pointing, some people then devolved into the "What's wrong with stating the fact that AA's voted more than any other minority on the amendment? It's true!" argument, along with the 'Geez, if you say anything about black people, it's automatically construed as racist' fall-back.

                            I've seen it one to many times. If people are really interested in talking about it and finding solutions, I'm all aboard. But there are a lot of people here who are not being above board with their intentions.

                          •  I think I missed the ugly stuff (0+ / 0-)

                            and just caught the "you can't talk about it" stuff.

                            If what you linked to was actually typical? That's terrible. But it's not typical of what I've seen.

                            I've been fortunate enough to have some excellent coversations the past few days on the subject that have left me energized with some real ideas and strategies on how to move forward.

                            Anyone who posted shit like you linked to is piece of shit in my view, but let's not let their idiocy prevent real conversation from occuring.

                          •  The overt racism? Not typical, but there (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Roberlin, kir, DianaR

                            I can't recall who the poster was that was posting some lines sarcastically in 'ebonics' (real cute), someone saying too many black people walk around thinking they own civil rights, etc., and many were saying how ironic if Obama hadn't run the AA's wouldn't have come out and therefore this wouldn't have passed, which I believe to be untrue. One or two even said if it was Hillary in the GE we wouldn't be facing this wouldn't have happened(?)

                            I'm not going to let idiocy get in the way of discussing this extremely important matter so we as a group can move forward with both fighting and supporting the fight for the prop-8 appeal - but I'm not going let people pretend that racist remarks and the blame-game aren't occurring and imply that blacks are just being 'hypersensitive as usual'.

                          •  I'm not sure that I wanted my memory refreshed (0+ / 0-)

                            in that way!

                            No, really, that was a helpful reminder of what I and many others have been dealing with this past week.

                            That racist rant was sickening.  But, what's more disappointing is the way someone actually tried to defend that racist drivel.  

                            Defending blatant racism is racist, pure and simple.  

                          •  Yes and all your arguments (0+ / 0-)

                            are invalid because of your unexamined heterosexualism.

                            Wee, this is fun! Let's see, what else can I make up about people I know nothing about?

                            A hint: we're dismissing you because you're so far from the mark that it's laughable, and if you actually knew us, or took the time to know us through our extensive diary and posting history... oh, who am I kidding? You don't care if you know it. You're just here to make shit up.

                            I've spent my whole life in academia. I've known more people like you than I can count. You learn enough jargon and cultural theory to string a few sentences together, mistake it for insight, then go running around sprinkling theory with no regard for reality, praxis, or circumstances.

                            If you want a real conversation based on actual facts, run off an learn some. Stop assuming you know more about your interlocutors than they know about themselves. Stop mistaking the facile deconstruction of a first-year grad student with a tenuos grasp on post-structuralism for actual insight. And most importantly, examined the truly disgusting colonialist assumptions you have yourself been making when engaging real, actual minorities in the wild.

                          •  Whole life in academia? That explains it. (0+ / 0-)

                            Again, just kidding.  I have nothing against academics.  I even have a friend or two who are academics.  

                            I don't pretend to know anything about you.  I'm sure you're a stand-up progressive-liberal.  But, just because you're a liberal doesn't make you immune from being racist at times.  

                            When I talk about your racism, i'm not making a global assessment about your character or identity.  It's a limited claim.  I'm saying your, um, very strong focus on the homophobia in the black community is racist.  That's it.  It's a racist argument, and I don't need to know anything else about you to say that it's a racist argument.  

                            As for my arguments being invalid due to my heterosexualism, that's a really broad assertion, with nothing to back it up.  Point to anything I've been saying as heterosexualist, explain why it's heterosexualist, and then I'll respond and say why i think it is or isn't.

                          •  Indeed you're saying (0+ / 0-)

                            that talking about race and homophobia is inherently racist. And that's all I need to know about the utility of attempting to engage you. I'm done. Bye now.

                          •  Uh, no, I'm not. Stop making a caricature of (0+ / 0-)

                            my arguments.  

                            What is racist is the WAY in which you're talking about race and homophobia.  

                            Stop trying to distort my arguments to escape having to confront the reality of the crap you've been saying and obsessing about.  

                          •  Is my use of the racism bludgeon the same as (0+ / 0-)

                            your use of the homophobia bludgeon regarding African Americans?  

                            No, my use of racism is not to shut down the discussion, but, my calling it the way I and many others see it.  

                            Interestingly, there's a gender component to all of this that deserves further exploration.  Most of the AA bashing seem to come from self-identified gay white and black men.  

                            I don't think I've seen AA bashing diaries or blog posts by white or minority lesbians.  In fact, the diaries or comments I've seen by lesbians, and AA lesbians in particular, have been calling out those people for scapegoating African Americans.

                            Coincidence? I don't think so.  

                      •  Bah. Here's my uprate. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                        As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

                        by ticket punch on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 09:49:48 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not saying it is an endemic problem (0+ / 0-)

            I'm just saying it was STUPID and Hypocritical.

            "...the fundamentals of our economy are strong"- John Sidney McCain 09/15/08

            by Shhs on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:25:55 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Only two groups decreased support from (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lisa66, DemocraticLuntz, Shhs, kir

          Kerry to Obama - gays and I believe either white working class or the over 65 group.

          Also, if you broke down that group by race, I bet you'd have an even lower percentage of white gays who voted for Obama compared to white gays who voted for Kerry in 2004.  

          Hmm... I wonder why?  If someone wanted to use the same fucked-up reasoning some people have been using against blacks, someone could start a diary saying that the white gay and lesbian community still are racist against blacks, because the CNN exit poll has uncontroverted evidence of it.  

          •  And if that reasoning is fucked-up (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            homogenius

            then why are you using it?

            •  Distorting my argument. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kir

              The fucked up reasoning I was critiquing was the fucked up way some people are using one lousy, unscientific, unreliable, exit poll to make these sweeping and overbroad generalizations and inferences about homophobia and the black community.

              The problem is that the 70% number's meaning is simply not self-evident, which is what a lot of people mistakenly assume.  

              Basically, people are taking that number to conclude that the black community is homophobic/anti-gay rights.  But that is not necessarily the only or true conclusion.  That number is just not enough information to make any reasonable claims about the motivations or beliefs of African Americans in California, let alone African Americans in the entire United States.  

              In that comment you provide a link to, I don't rely on exit polling to talk about racism in the gay community.  I actually refer to the countless racist statements I've read and read about in which mostly white gay men blame or scapegoat the "black community" for the passage of Prop 8.  

        •  Missed that gays aren't sterotype one issue votes (0+ / 0-)

          Hmmm....what's to miss.

          McCain wasn't Bush. A lot of folks voting for McCain who would not vote for Bush.  I gave McCain money back in 2000.  Wanted a McCain-Gore contest...good for US.

          McCain was the best of the Republican lot. He does get points for McCain-Feingold, Kerry-McCain deficit bill. Had he been eight years younger and running his 2000 campaign in 2008, he could have won.  I wouldn't have voted him in general but I would have helped him win Republican nomination.

      •  Don't think you understand the discussion. (0+ / 0-)

        A lot of people are attacking blacks and Latinos because a majority of them voted for Proposition 8.

        The same "attack" could be leveled against whites since a majority of whites voted against Obama.

        Great discussion about it on Farai Chideya's NPR radio show.

  •  Ppl are always going to be hypocrites (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yalin

    As a Christian I find other Christians attitudes toward GLBT people hypocritical.  Hell some gay ppl's attitudes towards transgendered ppl are fucking hypocritical.  However, I think it is extremely unfair to point out one SMALL groups hypocrisy in the prop 8 debacle.  Again didn't younger ppl of every race vote against it?

    "...the fundamentals of our economy are strong"- John Sidney McCain 09/15/08

    by Shhs on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:10:21 PM PST

  •  Thank you thank you (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    homogenius, Yalin, Lost and Found

    for the first reasonable diary on the subject I have seen.

    At it's core, our problem is religion, but it is a truth that almost no one in the progressive community is willing to face because even mentioning the problem is offensive to the religious.

    I don't hold out much hope for the US until we can tame the tidal wave of religion that has seized the country in the last 30 years

    We are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy unless it obstructs interstate commerce. - J. Edgar Hoover

    by tiponeill on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:20:17 PM PST

  •  Goodness (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yalin, Lost and Found, Roberlin

    Now this is a conversation.  I thought the national conversation on electing the black president was hard, now it's getting even deeper.

    Two points:
    Read, say, George Chauncey's Gay New York.  There is a lot of evidence that historically the white "community" is more homophobic and bigoted to gay people that the A-A community is.

    Secondly, what's the best reason to attack the Mormon leadership but not black voters?  It's good politics.  When we overturn 8, we will do so with the votes of many black Californians...and thanks to a narrative about the out-of-state, out-of-touch Mormon church leadership trying to impose Utah values on California.

    Join the California Nurses Association and National Nurses Organizing Committee at www.GuaranteedHealthcare.org/blog

    by California Nurses Shum on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:28:17 PM PST

  •  This is untrue: (0+ / 0-)

    Just like the FISA outrage that existed when it was the democrats pushing back against Bush in 2007, an outrage that turned to a SYFPH wave when it was Barack Obama and the democrats who decided that it was necessary to give retroactive immunity, something I diaried about as well, the Kossack community has been exceedingly hypocritical.

    Barack Obama and the majority of the Democratic caucus decided it was unnecessary to give retroactive immunity and they voted to strip it from the bill.  There were 32 votes to do this, the measure failed.

    Sen Obama, Sen Casey and Sen Baucus all voted in favor of stripping the immunity language out of the bill, but then in favor of the final bill that still contained the retroactive immunity.

    My suspicion as to Sen Obama is that he favored streamlining the FISA Court process but opposed some of the provisions that were in the final bill.  Were it not a presidential campaign, he likely would have voted against it, but he was in danger of having to explain, "No, no, I favored the general aims of this bill, but I voted against it because I was opposed to certain provisions of the bill" during a presidential campaign.

    Take it for what it's worth.

    Yes, Santa Claus, there is a Virginia. And it's going Democratic.

    by Anarchofascist on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 08:33:49 PM PST

    •  Barack Obama himself said that while he was (0+ / 0-)

      against retroactive immunity, it was a necessary evil in order to pass the bill and keep America safe. It was necessary to compromise.

      He put out a statement saying just that after the 20k+ people organized on his political website and it caught on in the MSM.

      President Barack Obama - #44

      by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 10:51:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  As heated and offensive as this (3+ / 0-)

    discussion has gotten here and elsewhere, it is important and I'm glad it is going on.  

    I know hurtful things have been said.  But this is not going to be a wedge between straight communities of color and the LGBT community.  We aren't going to let it.

    Thanks for the diary.

  •  Many of the Reagan Democrats were Catholic (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yalin
  •  Thank you (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    homogenius, LithiumCola, Yalin, thaelmann

    for a very thought-provoking diary.  I've read many of the links, and bookmarked the rest for later reading.  The degree to which African-Americans are a crucial bloc in the Democratic coalition, and what that portends for gay issues in the only major political party that is even a half-assed ally of gay people, is, I think, an underappreciated aspect of why emotions are running so high on this, on all sides.  And why these issues need to be discussed in as reflective a fashion as possible, with people paying particular attention to the experiences of gay people of color.

  •  Thanks (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yalin, thaelmann
    Yalin, thanks for posting this.  I've tried to make a similar point here and have been blasted for it.  But I'm white, so I'm vulnerable to the reflexive charge of racism.  As an African-American, you can speak to this issue with both more authority and personal experience and without being accused of prejudice.  Bravo.
  •  I saw a diary where I thought that some of your (5+ / 0-)

    comments were incendiary and frankly disturbing.  and then I read this.  

    It's not that I disagree that black voters failed us with Prop 8, I totally agree.  What I disagreed with was the notion that we all were being tarred with the same brush.  I still take umbrage with that.

    And yet...here I sit, black, female, straight and married.  But one of my daughters is gay.  And so I fight for her.  It's hard enough being gay, I believe it's even worse being a gay minority.  I'm sure you would agree.  I know that there is alarming homophobia in the black community.  I don't know that we'll ever be able to overcome that.  But if we can at least get through to a number of them, to show them that it's not about religion but about not denying someone the same rights that they have, that's half the battle.

    I'm glad I took the time to read your diary, and not just be put off by a few comments.  I think we all need to step back and look at the whole picture, not just parts of it.

    I'm Black and I voted No on Prop 8. Ease up out ma face, k?

    by Red Reign on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:17:25 PM PST

    •  Getting over the raw rage, anger, and hurt that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      johnnygunn

      I felt about Prop 8, just enough to write this diary, is what it took.

      There's still a lot there though. But this is the best way for me to talk about it.

      President Barack Obama - #44

      by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:26:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sure, you can say that the black voters in CA (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kir

      failed by voting for Prop 8.

      But, so did several more millions of white voters.  The white liberal community in California failed.  The Latino community failed.  The Asian community failed.  Men failed.  Women failed.  The religious failed.  The non-religious failed.  

      So, with all these various failures to heap blame and scorn upon, why is it that all the scorn and blame have been heaped essentially on two groups only - blacks and the Mormon church?

      Why are black people being battered and flogged into confessing their sins of homophobia, while white people, white liberals in particular, can cast blame and judgment from a morally superior positioning?  Mostly due to something arbitrary and stupid - one exit poll liberated some white (and black) gays in particular to let loose their racist impulses against blacks and engage in some disturbing scapegoating.  

      so, the racism in all of this is the choice made to focus on black people in the first place and examine only their homophobia, while other groups get away fairly scot-free.  

      Remember the way republicans tried to pin the financial crisis on African Americans who took on subprime loans and then defaulted?  In focusing on how AA's contributed to the financial meltdown, the goal was to deflect blame away from those who were really culpable - mortgage companies, speculators, republicans and their supply side economic bullshit, etc.  

      Same thing is going on here.  While liberals flail away at black peoples' homophobia and role in Prop 8 passing, lots of more culpable persons and organizations are being giving a free pass.

      •  I said almost exactly this just yesterday. (0+ / 0-)

        And of course there was massive fail up and down the spectrum.  What the diarist is getting at is the reasons that blacks may have voted against Prop 8.  And we could probably attribute the sentiments to other ethnic groups as well.  We are not all raised the same.  We are raised withon the bounds of our families beliefs and customs.  If you are told all your life that something is wrong, it's gonna take a while before you even begin to question that wrongness.  That's what we're fighting against.  Just like racism, homophobia is deep seated and will take time to root out.  We just have to be willing to try.

        I'm Black and I voted No on Prop 8. Ease up out ma face, k?

        by Red Reign on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 12:26:57 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  He doesn't really provide a reason. (0+ / 0-)

          Homophobia is the standard reason, but, it's really vague, and there may be other factors involved.  For example, black opposition to gay rights may have roots in issues of white racism and class.  Check out the passages from an interesting article about how blacks associate "gay rights" with the rights of wealthy white men.

          Media images such as those mentioned here tend to frame this debate for the larger culture, and it is the very images the gay community creates that Taylor thinks may explain some of the black community's resistance to the entire concept of gay rights.

          "We [as gays] want to put our best image out there, and our 'best' images can be very in-your-face to poor black people," Taylor explained. "They can be very arrogant as it relates to two white gay men on a beach outside their luxurious home." In other words, "It always comes back to the unspoken anger of other communities that are pissed at the white gay male community for white, male privilege."

          Taylor said that going through many gay magazines becomes a tour of exclusively white men enjoying "cruises and beach houses and resorts, saying we've got money, we've got money, which causes this insidious invocation of white, male privilege," explains Taylor. "And now you've got two of them. Now you've got Skip and Kyle!"

          He added, "At the end of the day, tight-ass Will Truman [Will & Grace] is just another rich white man."

           Very interesting article about race and gay rights

          •  I don't provide a reason because there isn't one (0+ / 0-)

            single overarching reason. You can point to many. The most dominant of them all, however, is indeed the black church and the power of religion/spirituality within the black community.

            That said, one of the links I referred to above did talk about how some blacks see gay rights as a "white perversion".

            It's in one of the block quotes.

            President Barack Obama - #44

            by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 01:00:44 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Now, this is a point that deserves real discussio (0+ / 0-)

              I think the role of the black church in socializing blacks in homophobia is overstated, while class and race divisions between blacks and white gay men are understated.

              Think about it.  If, in fact, a large segment of the black community oppose gay rights because they associate gay rights with white rights and privileges, then opposition to gay marriage rights is rooted, not just in homophobia, but in anger against white racial privilege.  

              In other words, blacks who voted for Prop 8 may have done so because they thought it was a racist proposition aimed at giving rich white gay men more power and privileges.  

              Of course that view is problematic, but, if the gay community is to build coalitions with AAs, then the gay community must take a hard look at the class divide between them and blacks, and the way gay identity has been constructed as white and wealthy.  

              •  While I do not disagree regarding that aspect, (0+ / 0-)

                and indeed have spoken about it, I tend to believe that the power of the black church isn't as overstated as you believe it is.

                Religion and spirituality as the bedrock (political and social) of the black community is something very powerful.

                More powerful than many people realize.

                President Barack Obama - #44

                by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 01:38:06 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's not either or. (0+ / 0-)

                  Both issues must be addressed.  But, the problem is, the latter issue of white racism and class privilege in the white gay community is one that is rarely addressed when the issue of race and gay rights pop up.  

                  •  Oh I don't think it's either or. I just think (0+ / 0-)

                    that the role of religion in the black community is a topic that too many have not been willing to discuss. There certainly is an element of racism in believing that HIV is a white gay man's plague and that gays are the white man's perversion.

                    But the foundation of that belief is in part stoked by the political, social, and religious bedrock of the black church.

                    I honestly believe that if you address that core underpinning, you address it all.

                    President Barack Obama - #44

                    by Yalin on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 08:43:30 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Best Comment - (0+ / 0-)

      I've seen on this subject.
      Thank you for your perspective.

  •  THANK YOU (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    johnnygunn, homogenius, Yalin

    This is the first diary on this subject that I hope does go to the rec list.  Gay people, black or white, and our allies need to work to fix this shit instead of throwing around blame.  And I appreciate very much the amount of work that you put into backing up your claim, as well as that you had the courage to write something like this.  Now we have a starting point.

    •  Diaries that I write typically don't get recced (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      johnnygunn

      up because I generally try to expose these uncomfortable truths rather than write what will be popular.

      It doesn't matter though. I'm just happy to get the discussion going.

      Thanks for your contribution. :)

      President Barack Obama - #44

      by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:27:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Truth - (0+ / 0-)

        Can be a rare commodity on the internet.

        Long ago I told students that you can Google practically anything and get thousands of hits - but when you start looking at the web pages for "Mount Kilimanjaro" they all say the same thing - often verbatim.

        Unfortunately, such is frequently the case here at DKos and on other blogs.  There is a dominant discourse that is established almost instantly - and to go against it invites censure and ridicule - not to mention troll rating.

        I always know that I am on the wrong side of a debate when people can use vulgar obscenities towards me and get recs - while my carefully researched and linked diary/comment remains unrecced.

        I agree - you really stuck your neck out on this one.
        Thanks again.

  •  Thanks, Yalin. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dedmonds, Yalin

    There has been so little reasoned discussion on this. Thank you for the thoughtful and intelligent discourse.

    It has also helped to prove in my mind that we have some provocateurs in our midst. Unfortunately, I fear it will get worse before it gets better around here unless we are better able to identify and isolate the trolls among us. They are doing considerable damage and getting away with it so far.

    "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

    by homogenius on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 09:29:01 PM PST

    •  If you'd seen some of the comments I've made (0+ / 0-)

      about Prop 8 and the black community in other diaries, you'd probably have called me a troll as well.

      I don't turn away anyone's comments, particularly not on issues so emotionally raw as this one.

      It's a tough nut to crack, no two ways about it. That's what drove me to write this diary in the first place.

      President Barack Obama - #44

      by Yalin on Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 11:29:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  easy answers to easy questions: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    johnnygunn

    "Is it because blacks are a pillar of the democratic coalition whereas mormons are not?"

    yes.

    thank you for a brave diary and for trying to keep kossacks intellectually honest.

  •  No on 8: The intersect of Black, Brown & gay (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yalin

    Being White and gay, I have a different perspective and different experience with Latinos, African-Americans, and their churches. It is one that is without any clarity.

    I was an elder of a New York City Baptist church that had a plurality African-American membership and a leadership that was also split between White and Africh-American.  The church itself was rabidly homophobic.

    More recently, my husband and I had an African-American guest at our CA wedding who is very religious.  She informed us that most New York African-American churches had gay members that were known to the congregants.  Their policies were 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell,' as these members were welcomed and not pressured to change.

    Several weeks before the election, my Iranian-American neighbor reported to me that he would vote No on 8.  Later, his Central American wife dittoed Abe's intent.  A couple of days prior to the election, one of our four African-American neighbors congratulated us on our wedding and told me that she had voted No on 8, especially since we were their 'best' neighbors.  We are supposing that Betty's husband also voted No on 8.

    Based on these experiences, I had erroneously thought that African-Americans in CA would support No on Prop. 8. Silly me.

    In our local CA race, the 45th CD, our candidate, Julie Bornstein, made a swing through the African-American churches on the last weekend of the campaign in Moreno Valley.  However, the campaign could only find three African-American churches that supported No on 8.  This should have been a clue for us.

    Our local Democratic Assembly candidate, Latino, who flipped the District blue, supported Marriage Equality in Palm Springs and in the West Valley and had promised to promulgate No on 8 to the East Valley and Imperial County portions of the District.  However, I was never really sure that he did as promised.

    We need our gay leaders to reach out to the African-American and Latino communities in order to flip them to gay-friendly.  The No on Prop 8 campaign and the Human Rights Campaign failed us miserably in this area.

    They should have utilized Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villagiarosa and Christina Chavez, granddaughter of Caesar Chavez, in television to the Latino sections of CA.  They should have employed former-San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown, Samuel L. Jackson, Magic Johnson and others to reach out to the African-American communities.  They should have used the six most senior Episcopalian bishops who endorsed No on 8 and other religious leaders to reach out to the religious leadership.

    They should also have made use of Steve and Barb Young to reach out to the CA Mormon community.  Young is the great-great-great grandson of Brigham Young, was quarterback at Brigham Young University, and played for the San Francisco 49ers.  Also, we had the co-founder of WordPerfect, a former-Mormon, present-gay man as a brain trust on Mormon culture.

    Tbis was our campaign to lose, and the leadership of No on Prop 8, HRC, and EQCA did just that.  There was plenty of blame to go around.  However, if we could have an impact on our ethnic minority neighbors, then so could have they.

    Turning the Coachella Valley and Pass Blue One Blog Posting at a Time

    by BlueBeaumontBoyz on Sun Nov 09, 2008 at 12:18:05 AM PST

  •  Thank You, Thank You, Thank You - (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yalin

    I have posted multiple sermon excerpts from homophobic African American preachers that call for the extermination of GLBTI people.  In those diaries and comments I acknowledge the persistence of racism - and only once has someone condemned those preachers.

    You have hit the nail on the head from my point of view - a white gay man who has worked for 40 years for civil rights for African Americans and has been called a racist multiple times this week.

    It truly has been adding insult to injury.

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