It's a jungle here at DailyKos. But I'm an advocate (mostly for the National Initiative for Democracy) with no driver's license and nothing better to do after I've gotten home from a night on the town than sit down and type away in the comments section.
Open threads are my specialty, because I can just introduce a topic about my pet cause and see the reaction I get. Let me take you on a journey, through my commenting experience at this website over the past few days...
First, let me introduce the cause that I spend so much time working for. It's called the National Initiative for Democracy (read up on it at http://www.ni4d.us and http://www.vote.org if you want) and it would establish a direct democracy at all levels of US government. But you'll learn that soon enough.
A few days ago I was feeling bored. So I decided to mosey on over to the computer and spend a few minutes on my absolute favorite orange-colored blog. I didn't have time for a full diary, I thought, so I would just comment on a newly posted open thread.
It was all downhill from there. One comment explaining my desire for a new constitutional amendment turned into an hours' time defending it. And then on the next open thread I started up again, and then...well, you can see below.
My adventure begins:
Ballot measures for the whole nation (1+ / 0-)
http://www.ni4d.us
http://www.vote.org
This is what's needed. It would be like an Internet Revolution inside the government.
by rossl on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 09:57:00 PM EST
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And I got quite a response:
Fuck no. Direct democracy is TERRIBLE. nt (6+ / 0-)
by Pender on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 10:01:55 PM EST
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why? (0+ / 0-)
you think you're smarter than everyone else in the country?
by rossl on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 10:03:04 PM EST
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I'm sure as hell smarter than most. (7+ / 0-)
But seriously, here's the problem with direct democracy:
If there's a cause, and 49% need it so badly it hurts, and 51% are tepidly against it, then with a legislative body, the 49% will (rightly) win. With direct democracy, the 49% will lose. That's what happened with prop 8, and that's the general problem with direct democracy.
by Pender on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 10:12:33 PM EST
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that might not happen with the ni4d (0+ / 0-)
because of the system set up to protect the minority at the same time it empowers the majority.
even if something like prop 8 did happen, the courts could rule it unconstitutional or a law could be proposed to repeal the prop 8-like law.
by rossl on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 07:09:07 PM EST
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Direct Democracy is mob rule. (3+ / 0-)
No. No. No.
Thats why this is NOT a Democracy.
Dana Curtis Kincaid Ad Astra per Aspera! http://www.angrytoyrobot.blogspot.com The enemy is not man, the enemy is stupidity.
by angrytoyrobot on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 10:02:58 PM EST
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That's why there is a proposed law (0+ / 0-)
it sets up a system that avoids mob law through multiple deliberative bodies vetting each law.
it would not be like the system in california.
by rossl on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 10:03:45 PM EST
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o
Um. (3+ / 0-)
it sets up a system that avoids mob law through multiple deliberative bodies vetting each law.
Hmmm... I believe we have that, and it's called a legislature.
by Pender on Mon Nov 17, 2008 at 10:18:51 PM EST
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But you wouldn't have to be a legislator... (0+ / 0-)
...for this. it's a legislature of the people.
the deliberative bodies would be like juries - selected at random from the citizenry.
by rossl on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 07:07:41 PM EST
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No, it's not [referring to direct democracy and mob rule] (2+ / 0-)
When limited to the proper sphere, and not used to undermine the Judiciary or limit Civil Rights.
California threw out School Prayer through initiative in 1922. We created CalVets through initiative in the early 20's, which 20 years later served as the model for VA loans.
One of the first Initiatives we passed did away with the Poll Tax long before any court ruled them illegal.
We created our UC system through Initiative when our Legislature refused to do it.
It's certainly not an unalloyed good, any more than any other system, but do we condemn Representative Government on the basis of horrible crap like DOMA? Do we condem the system of Judicial Review based on horrific decisions like Plessy V Ferguson?
The system needs fixing, no doubt. We need to make it impossible to modify our state constitution in any way without a constitutional convention AND a 2/3rds popular vote majority.
We also need to limit proposition to our Gubernatorial election. No more trying to get something on a low-turn out Republican heavy "special election", or trying to take advantage of a Presidential Election sucking up all the air so something can be slipped through with no meaningfull public debate.
Imagine if Prop 8 had been in the mix in 2010 with Arnie and Feinstein running for Senate and both opposed to it? With Jerry Brown running for Governor, and opposed to it? Being a topic of discussion in both Senatorial and Gubernatorial debates? Without progressives sending all their time and cash to the Obama campaign?
I could make a similar case in regard to Prop 187, BTW, and Prop 22.
by JesseCW on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 04:17:47 AM EST
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That was just my first experience. It only got better as time went on...
Let's get ballot initiatives for the whole nation (0+ / 0-)
Let's get the National Initiative for Democracy. It would establish a constitutional amendment to allow citizens to propose, then vote on, legislation. It would be a fourth check in our system of checks and balances.
After the Amendment, a law would be put in place to set up a system for the national initiative, in order to avoid mob rule.
http://www.ni4d.us and http://www.vote.org for more info and to vote "yes" or "no" on it.
by rossl on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 07:13:44 PM EST
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* If you really trust the general voting (0+ / 0-)
public to make legislation, then go right ahead.
by oscarsmom on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 07:35:47 PM EST
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o
I do. (0+ / 0-)
And their overall intelligence and maturity would increase with initiative voting. It would be like bringing them from "civic adolescence" to civic adulthood, to paraphrase Mike Gravel.
by rossl on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 08:11:14 PM EST
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* After eight years of watcing the constitution (0+ / 0-)
treated like a diaper by civic toddlers, would one seriously look forward to to adolescence with anything other than morbid curiosity?
California Prop 8 shows the error of constitutional amendment by majority popular vote. Sorry, but for me, NI4D is a non-starter in too many ways to discuss.
by FeastOr on Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:25:38 PM EST
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#
Civic toddlers? You're talking about Congress, (0+ / 0-)
right?
by rossl on Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 03:21:15 PM EST
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*I was thinking of a different branch (0+ / 0-)
that 'just a piece of paper' guy -- but your interpretation fits like a Snuggie, too.
(Actually, I just couldn't resist extending the analogy.)
by FeastOr on Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 01:23:26 AM EST
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After a while, I began to strategize. I held focus groups, I hired polling companies, and I set up a social networking site - MyCo(mments). Not really. I just tried different techniques and targeting different DailyKos audiences.
There was the Prop 8 hater:
How we can improve upon failed initiative systems (0+ / 0-)
The recent passage of California's Prop 8 with only 31% support from all of California's voters (50% of 62% who voted on it) reveals that state ballot initiative systems are fatally flawed.
So what can we do?
Surprisingly, the answer might be to apply Swiss-like initiative systems to the whole nation. It would be a major step forward in the fairness and reform of initiatives.
Check the text of the proposed law (endorsed by Senator Mike Gravel, Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Paul Jacob, Congressman-elect Jared Polis, and many others) at http://www.ni4d.us
What do you think?
And there was the shocker:
Let's get a new independent branch of government (1+ / 0-)
Let's create a legislature of the people, where anyone can participate in legislation and deliberation. Check out this new (although based on the Swiss system) of direct democracy:
http://www.ni4d.us
http://www.vote.org
What do you think?
And notice how I always ended with "What do you think?". It was to get people to tell me what they thought, if that wasn't obvious enough. I wanted a reaction. I wanted people to ponder what I was telling them, and not just read it like any other comment.
Occasionally, I would run into someone who knew a little something about initiatives. That was a challenge, but I feel like I came out on top, because I know what I'm talking about and I think I'm right (most of the time!).
Well, if you call "involved" (2+ / 0-)
engaging in mob votes to keep non-whites from becoming citizens...up until recently the practice was quite common, until their judiciary put a stop to it. people get "voted on" by their future fellow citizens and guess what, if you aren't the right color/religion, no matter how long you'd been there, no matter what your contributions, you didn't get in.
The swiss systems of government (they really aren't a coherent whole even now) are extremely problematic on many levels and only survive because the country is slowly shedding many of its most "unique" aspects and becoming more modern. I would never take them as an example of where to go with America.
by decembersue on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 03:27:10 PM EST
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That's only one example of an initiative (1+ / 0-)
It's also one of the richest countries, one of the best concerning civil liberties, and a business haven, while protecting the environment quite successfully.
But even though the Ni4D is modeled on the Swiss system, it is not the Swiss system. For years, many people have been working on this law and they've gotten as close as possible to working out the kinks in both the US and Swiss systems to create something much better than in existence right now.
You can read the law if you want at http://www.ni4d.us
by rossl on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 03:31:28 PM EST
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Before I bore you to death, I'd like to tell you that tonight was one of my better nights. I got the usual dissenters, yes, but I also got some very thoughtful and insightful and respectful people who disagreed with me. They were interesting to have a discussion with. I would say they changed my mind, but honestly, I've had the discussions I had with them 1000 times before. They just brought a bit of a new perspective to things, which is always good. I'll give you a sample:
Majority rule isn't always right (5+ / 0-)
I appreciate your efforts to get people involved in government, but ballot initiatives can strip minorities of rights. (See California Prop 8 as a good example)
The founding fathers had it right with the three branches of government with checks and balances. This way, the rights of minority interests can be protected from the will of the majority.
by Funphil on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 09:49:45 PM EST
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Minority rule is better than majority rule? (0+ / 0-)
I don't understand how a minority ruling the majority is better than the majority having a voice in government.
The checks and balances would still be there, there would just be an extra leg added to our three-legged stool of government. We need normal, non power crazed people to check the unbelievable power of those who are in high posts of government.
No, this system would not be perfect, but it would be better than what we have now. Senators and lawyers and other experts have been working for years to perfect the legislation available at http://www.ni4d.us so that it takes the worst aspects out of the initiative system.
by rossl on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 09:55:15 PM EST
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o
I hear you (1+ / 0-)
I hear what you are saying. I wish voters were more involved in elections and were more informed, but I think most would not be informed voters.
I'm not for minority rule, but if state's voters could vote on discriminatory initiatives then many in a minority roll could have their rights taken away. I wouldn't want to see a segregation vote taken in Alabama. I wouldn't want South Carolina to vote on whether gay people should have the right to vote? There are some public services that if they were put to a vote as a tax, they would not pass.
by Funphil on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 10:07:46 PM EST
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I've got to thank you (1+ / 0-)
For having an intelligent discussion about this, rather than just saying "Prop hate" or something like that and leaving me out to dry. I appreciate it.
As for people being more involved in elections and government, it is very likely that if they had some power in their government they would become more involved. I'll bet that 50% of the people who don't vote on election day just don't think there's a point to it, because their vote doesn't matter. But if they had a say in the issue of the day, it would matter. In Switzerland, the only country on Earth whose government has been built upon citizen involvement (yes, they have national initiatives), the citizens are more involved in government than in any other nation. And they're also some of the happiest, richest people on the planet.
And this wouldn't be mob rule. Like I said, years have been spent perfecting this. The authors - mainly former Senator Mike Gravel, but with a lot of help - poured over every available source of information about direct democracy. They have taken into account all previous flaws and have designed a system which I believe (along with Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Granny D Haddock, Jared Polis, the first openly gay Congressman-elect, and many others) has balanced people power and the realities of governance. It is a system which involves multiple deliberative bodies to judge each initiative, so that nothing harmful or stupid goes before the people. There are also mechanisms in place to make sure that no legislation is passed out of fear and in haste. For example, citizens wouldn't be able to pass legislation that limited our civil liberties if we entered a period of fear after a terrorist attack (boy, wish I could do that with Congress!).
by rossl on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 10:15:32 PM EST
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And by the way, (1+ / 0-)
many of the Founding Fathers wanted direct democracy. In fact, the vote on whether or not to pass the Constitution was held through townhall meetings in which all eligible citizens could participate in Rhode Island. And other Founding Fathers thought that the people should be allowed to amend their Constitution. For instance, James Wilson (a Framer of the Constitution) said, "The people may change the constitutions whenever and however they please. This is a right of which no positive institution can ever deprive them."
by rossl on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 09:58:41 PM EST
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o
Cool (2+ / 0-)
Thank you for your perspective. This is exactly why I joined dailykos. It is great to hear from someone with a different perspective on an issue than I have. You've sparked my curiosity about this topic.
by Funphil on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 10:14:53 PM EST
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All in all, navigating my way through the Amazonian density of both hate and thoughtfulness and humor on DailyKos has been interesting. I've "met" new people and talked to them about some great stuff. If you're interested in seeing more, just click on my name and look at the comments section. I hope to continue having a good time here with you all!
And now, before I leave, I will leave you with a shameless plug, quoted from one of my comments:
I want ballot initiatives for the whole nation. Do you? You can vote "yes" or "no" at http://www.ni4d.us .
But first, I would like to ask you to read about what you are voting on. The text of the proposed law and constitutional amendment are also available at http://www.ni4d.us and http://www.vote.org . I would be happy to answer any questions about it, as well.
You should know that it differs greatly from the system in California, and much of the past 2 decades have seen experts from many fields critiquing this legislation. The errors of state intiative systems and the Swiss national initiative system have been examined - along with their successes - to form possibly the best form of direct democracy we have seen yet.
If you want to help, you can email me at RossMLevin@gmail.com.
What do you think?