, Dana Milbank writes up a sometimes contentious interview that George W Bush gave to the French magazine
George W Bush Speaks to Paris Match
by Regis Le Sommier
Scenes from ordinary life in the White House before the interview
Condi, come here so I can introduce you to this gentleman! Arriving in the company of the president, Condoleezza Rice is quietly walking out of the diplomatic reception room at the White House. She retraces her steps. "Here is Ms. Rice, the famous Ms. Rice, the most powerful woman in the world," says George Bush, jokingly. He's proud of the effect. She is a bit annoyed by the introduction; she tells me in a soft voice that she is thrilled to meet me and adds, "Good luck with your interview." Her handshake is warm. "I've read so much about you," I tell her. At first, that seems to please her. Then a movement of the eyebrows shows that she realizes that, coming from a Frenchman, doubtless I am not alluding to the most flattering pieces of writing. One would almost say that it saddens her. Could there be fragility in a woman who could dispute with Margaret Thatcher the title of "Iron Lady"? At this instant, in the middle of these men dressed in black with white teeth who surround the president, with her yellow suit, her smile and happy expression, she seems almost to be the only slightly human presence in this highest circle of power. Condi, beyond being the national security advisor, is the good luck charm of the president [l'atout de charme du president]. He grabs her by the shoulder. He loves grabbing people by the shoulder. "Colin never stopped bothering you at noon? What was that about?" the president demands suddenly. "Colin wanted to know why I ordered a special meal. I just told him that I don't like beef," she replies. Condi excuses herself then and leaves the room. Through an open door blows a warm and humid breeze. Outside, it travels like a shadow through the rich greenery of the Rose Garden, the place where press conferences are held. Everything is neat between the two marble columns. In this Rose Garden, there are few roses but lots of green and, bizarrely, no natural fragrance. One would think oneself on a David Lynch set. One also thinks of the series, "The Prisoner," seeing two members of the Secret Service dressed as gardeners and, over there, a guy with an earpiece and a black bag at his feet who stands near a fountain like a gargoyle - not to mention the hundreds of pairs of eyes who inspect every corner, as well as all that one doesn't see.
When I arrived, an hour and a half before the interview, the president held a press conference with the Danish prime minister, Anders Rasmussen, a loyal ally of the coalition. Condi was there, of course, as was Colin Powell and Andrew Card, the White House chief of staff. A few minutes before Bush begins to speak, I surprised four men in black suits who passed one by one the length of the white columns. The third held a sheaf of papers under his arm. He glances obliquely in the direction of the journalists assembled on the lawn. "Look, it's Dick Cheney," murmurs a woman in her daughter's ear. Always outside of others, the vice president decidedly cultivates his reputation as a secretive man. He passes like a shadow. We don't see him again.
The White House, it's a bubble. Here, one is no longer completely in reality. The entrance gate felt to me like a chamber through which I had been expired after first having been deprived of every metallic object and then, once the metal had been inspected and returned to me, escorted to its interior. Then I waited. The interview was scheduled for 1:15. "He's never late. Sometimes he even arrives early, so beware," warned Greg Lagana, from the communication service. He wasn't wrong. Fifteen minutes before the interview, while we were having a sandwich in another building, everything had to be dropped to run to the interview room. Once I'd arrived, I didn't have time to introduce myself before George Bush whispered in my ear, "Your name?" I answer. A photo is taken. I sit down on a large soft chair in the corner near a fireplace, below a severe portrait of George Washington. Just a bit earlier, we had come in with some of our staff to look at the place. One of them wanted to move the chairs. Coming from nowhere, two men descended to stop them from doing so. Moving furniture and objects in the White House is not allowed. Only the ushers are permitted to do so. Only they may touch the busts of Churchill and of Roosevelt, remove the dust from the presidential china displayed in the "China Room," or on the pistol belonging to Saddam Hussein which is proudly exhibited before his most faithful supporters. Today, he doesn't show it to us. Always very relaxed, George Bush takes his place on the chair in front of mine. He has a smirk which makes one think he doesn't care about his interviewer. It's his way of expressing curiosity and, above all, to test those who are in front of him. He likes to put people to the test. For ages, the Bush family has thought of life as a competition at all moments. The day before, during his visit to Nashville Tennessee, I noticed something similar. He is always very attentive when someone spoke even if, during that time, he had that smile. Sometimes, he is distracted, nodding his head in a way that was seen by the crowd. But he listens to everything and doesn't forget a thing, above all the names that he amuses himself by changing into nicknames. In his mouth, Bob becomes Bobby; Paul, Pablo; Peter, Pedro; Rumsfeld, "Rummy," Condi, "Guru." Even Laura, his wife, has the right to the nickname of "First." He's at ease in Nashville. He's at ease in the South. He comes up with joke after joke. He's comfortable around people, just like Jacques Chirac. On this point, the two men resemble each other totally. They've got the sense of contact. Before starting, he tells me that he doesn't want it to be an interview, but a conversation. Bush isn't a man of words but of instinct. Sitting in a semi-circle around us, at least eight people listen, watch, and type away on keyboards. It's certainly the first time that I'm not afraid that the tape recorder might break during an interview.
Paris Match: In a few days, you will walk on the shore of Omaha Beach in Normandy and in France. Does that mean that you are no longer angry with us?
George W Bush: I was never angry with the French. France is a longtime ally. Listen, I made a difficult decision and everyone didn't agree with that decision [to go to war with Iraq]. But I understand that. Today, it's time to work together to promote the values we believe in. Human rights, human dignity, and the rule of law, of liberty and justice. Omaha Beach is the symbol itself of work accomplished together in the name of the values that unite us. It's an interesting historical moment to be at Omaha Beach.
P.M.: For two hundred years, the United States and France have walked hand in hand, sharing the values that you have evoked. The year before, for the first time, we were not allies. What happened?
G.W.B.: You'll have to ask French officials that.
P.M.: Speaking of French officials..
G.W.B.: For whom I have the most profound respect.
P.M.: Jacques Chirac is a friend of your father. He was the first foreign leader to call and congratulate you after your election.
G.W.B. In this room itself, that's exactly right.
P.M.: He was also the first to view the ruins of the World Trade Center after September 11. What happened between you?
G.W.B.: I simply think that he didn't agree with enforcing the Security Council resolution that required [Saddam Hussein] to disarm, to prove that this disarmament had been carried out or "risk the consequences." He voted, France voted for that resolution, like the United States. The difference between us hinged on the point of "risking the consequences." But friends can disagree. I have some very old friends who I still consider as such, and who do not always agree with the decisions I make. Jacques told me clearly. He didn't think the use of force was necessary. We debated it as friends.
P.M.: Does that mean that the French president will soon be invited to Crawford?
G.W.B.: If he wants to see the cows, he's very welcome. He can come see the cows. [Laughs.]
P.M.: Today, you are turning to the United Nations for help in finding a solution to the Iraq crisis. Isn't..
G.W.B.: No. Can I stop you? We are going to the United Nations once again to adopt a resolution that will call for a new government to whom total sovereignty will be transferred. You know, after the Second World War, many people didn't want to believe that Germany could become free and democratic, or that Japan could. There are people who refused to believe that it was possible. Happily, there were optimists, those individuals who believed in principles and in systems of values founded on the rule of law, in democracy and in justice. They were right. They triumphed. Happily, their opinions prevailed. So that now Germany and Japan are among our closest allies in this war. It's never too late to believe that people can become free.
P.M.: But obviously it's more difficult than you had imagined.
G.W.B.: In some ways yes, in others no. Before our engagement in Iraq, I thought that we would have to handle an avalanche of refugees, of famines, of oil wells set on fire. None of those things happened. What happened is that we progressed so rapidly through the country that many Saddam loyalists disappeared into the background and have returned today to stop the progression of liberty. Another thing has happened. Foreign fighters have infiltrated into Iraq to convince suicide bombers to kill innocent Iraqis. It's tough, it's a long term project. But we will prevail because people want to be free, and that's what's important. That's why it's urgent that the world unite to help the Iraqi people form their government. Not an American government, not something that resembles America, but a uniquely Iraqi government. That's what we want to bring about.
P.M. The entire world remembers the moment when you spoke to the firefighters in the ruins of the World Trade Center. You wanted to heal these wounds and unite the world back then. Today, your message doesn't seem to be heard by the world. Do you feel isolated?
G.W.B.: No. I'm fine with myself.
P.M.: Yes, but all the world's nations were with you...
G.W.B.: Let me finish. You ask me a question. I'll give you the answers. Then if you want to ask me another question, you can do that. I think the United States must continue to work with other nations. Many other nations are in Afghanistan and in Iraq, not only to fight terrorism and its immediate effects, or to stop terrorists before they act, but to bring about the triumph of liberty. Free societies live in peace. They bring hope. Many nations pursue this goal. I also believe that the United States must be able to feed the hungry. We are the most generous nation in the world when it comes to giving food to those who are hungry or for fighting the AIDS epidemic in Africa, for example. I asked Congress, who voted for it, for 15 billion dollars in aid over five years to combat the epidemic. We are a nation that knows how to be tough when it must protect its own security and that knows how to show compassion for the suffering of others. And I hope that people will see the fruits of America's generosity.
P.M. Let's talk about the affair of the photos of the tortured prisoners. Upon seeing them, the First Lady said, "It's intolerable." The moral leadership of a president is his greatest strength. Do you think you are responsible in one way or another for this moral failure in Iraq?
G.W.B.: My responsibility is to show the world that we are dealing with this in a transparent way, and people will see that justice will be done. What I regret above all is that the great honor of our country has been stained by the acts of a few. The first one of them is in prison. He was judged and found guilty, in transparency. People can say that. That is in itself a striking contrast with tyrannical societies in which nobody even hears anyone talking about the punishments inflicted upon prisoners. This difference must be clear in the eyes of the world. Laura thinks like me, we reacted the same way. It's a stain on our honor.
P.M. Do you still feel this stain on your honor?
G.W.B.: Of course. America is a great country, generous and worthy. And the behavior of some does not reflect the true nature of the men and women who wear our uniform, nor the character of the American people.
P.M.: Let's talk about good news now.
G.W.B.: No, really, you're going to talk about good news?
P.M.: Will the moment when Saddam was captured remain the greatest moment of your presidency?
G.W.B.: It was a very important moment of my presidency. I wouldn't say the greatest. The best moments are when I meet people who have acted heroically. Those who help those who are suffering or when a generous citizen restores the morale of another. I realize that these thousands of acts contribute toward restoring the morale of the entire country. Those are the greatest moments. The capture of Saddam was satisfying, but not the greatest day. It was satisfying because that was part of our mission. We wanted to liberate the people from that infamous dictator. Now I'll tell you about a great moment in my presidency. Not the best, but a great moment. The other day, seven people came to visit me at the White House. Saddam Hussein had cut off all their right hands. They were businessmen in Iraq. Most of them lived in Baghdad. They were small business owners. Iraqi money had been devalued and Saddam Hussein was looking for scapegoats. He arrested them on the pretext that they were manipulating the currency, and he cut off their hands for that. Then, they marked an X on their foreheads. An American director made a documentary on these men so that people remember the brutality of Saddam Hussein. So that we don't forget how he tortured and humiliated people. Then a man from Houston, who worked in television and owned a foundation, saw the documentary. And he decided to donate money so that these seven men could come to the United States and be given artificial hands, the latest prosthetics. They came to see me in the Oval Office. it was a very intense moment. They were full of thanks to the United States and to the entire world for having liberated their country from Saddam Hussein, but also to the men who decided to help them. That's the kind of moment that makes me happy.
P.M.: Six months after the capture of Saddam Hussein, each day brings terrible news of American soldiers killed in combat. Why are the Iraqis taking up arms against their liberators?
G.W.B.: Ah, well because there are some who can't handle the idea that liberty is coming to their country. In other words, they are conscient of what a free society will bring. A free society would change mentalities, would bring hope and ambition. There are, on the other hand, foreign fighters who have come to Iraq to open a front in the war on terror, because they want to stop the advance of liberty. With a free society, the long-term question of terrorism will be resolved. Despair nourishes fanaticism and terrorism. Liberty wards off despair.
P.M.: If you were Iraqi, could you see the occupation as a burden?
G.W.B.: Yes.
P.M.: Sincerely, you could?
G.W.B.: Yes, of course I could. I say it all the time. I say it everywhere. Myself, I couldn't stand for my country to be occupied.
P.M.: So you can't say that these people are all terrorists?
G.W.B.: No, I agree. They are not all terrorists.
P.M.: Even those who take up arms?
G.W.B.: The suicide bombers are but the other fighters are not. They can't stand to be under occupation. Neither I nor anyone would like to be in their place. That's why we're giving them their sovereignty. We guarantee them a full sovereignty after June 30. When does your magazine come out?
P.M.: Next Thursday.
G.W.B.: From then we'll start to see the government forming to whom this full sovereignty will be given.
P.M.: Will the names of the ministers?
G.W.B.: Absolutely. And not only the names of those participating but right after that, a resolution from the Security Council approving the new government. It's important. I understand that people don't want to be occupied. Me neither, I wouldn't like it.
P.M.: Your political actions are inspired by God, as you often make known..
G.W.B.: Did I say that? My political actions? I've never said that.
P.M.: You've never said that? In saying it, I wasn't quoting you..
G.W.B.: No, I've never said that.
P.M.: I'm saying that in general, you make references to God for..
G.W.B.: You're trying to say that my political actions are caused by God, right?
P.M.: No, no. I'm saying that your political actions are inspired by God.
G.W.B.: No, my life is inspired by God.
P.M.: With political consequences. When you speak of the notion of liberty, you connect it to God..
G.W.B.: Oh! I see what you're saying. What I said, is that liberty is not a gift from America to the world. In other words, I want to get across the message that liberty is universal, that it doesn't come from one country. Liberty is more universal even than man. You see, I believe that liberty is a gift from the Almighty to everyone on earth. And I say that to make it clear that we don't want the entire world to resemble America. I understand that that won't happen. Liberty is universal. It exists here. It exists in France. Liberty returns, or will return, in the new Iraq.
P.M.: Are you worried about what your daughters will think in a few years, when they look on what you're doing today?
G.W.B.: No. I don't worry about what my daughers will think of me. They're adults. They're capable of having their own opinion. The only thing that I can do for my daughters, is to tell them that I love them every day, which I try to do.
P.M.: Today, relations with France are improving...
G.W.B.: I hope so.
P.M.: How did you react when the Jury at the Cannes Film Festival awarded the Palme d'Or to Michael Moore's film "Fahreinheit 9/11"?
G.W.B.: I didn't pay any attention to it.
P.M.: Thank you.
G.W.B.: Thanks and good luck to you. I was very glad to welcome you here.