Daily Kos

Can Kossacks Handle Truths Re: MI & FL?

Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 11:13:00 PM PDT

Markos, in his brief diary from earlier today,  "Those Poor Florida Democrats",  makes a rather feeble attempt to offset a no-less-than-brilliant piece by highly respected journalist Wayne Barrett posted on HuffPo yesterday, "Could the Republicans Pick the Democratic Nominee? -- The Untold Story of How the GOP Rigged Florida and Michigan."

(IMHO,  history will indicate that Barrett's piece will--I'm sure--be considered one of the quintessential accountings of what really happened with regard to the Democratic Primaries in MI and FL this year.)

So, this blog's fearless leader goes to not-so-great-lengths pulling a 30-second sound bite made by Florida State Senate Minority Leader Geller completely out of context. It generates over 400 comments from this community, adding insult to injury. (The truth being what was injured here, nothing else.)

If you care about the truth and actual facts, regardless of whom you support in the Primary, on this "reality-based blog," read Barrett's piece. If you don't, then rant based upon a 30-second, out-of-context sound bite which serves as almost the entire content for Kos' post earlier today.

Here are just three graphs from Barrett's amazing story that dispels Kos' post, virtually in its entirety. The rest of the Barrett article is nothing short of  amazing.

For the record, Barrett's the real deal--perhaps the best political investigative reporter of our time--he gives Woodward, Bernstein and Hersh a run for their money.  


"Another factor attracting Democratic votes in the legislature for the bill was one the DNC should certainly appreciate. Governor Crist threw a reform long sought by Florida Democrats into the bill: a mandatory paper trail for all votes cast in future elections. "The Democrats have been fighting for a paper trail bill since 2000," said State Senator Nan Rich, "and Governor Bush never would support it. So finally we got a governor who was willing to support it and it ended up connected to the early primary bill. That was unfortunate. If the paper trail hadn't been there, I believe we Democrats would've all voted no. Still, if all the Republicans had voted one way and all the Democrats had voted another way, the bill would've passed." (This Christmas tree bill -- whose title alone was 154 lines long -- had something special for everyone. It would even enable Crist to run as John McCain's vice presidential candidate, revoking a ban against state officials running for federal office.)

<SNIP>

Martin Kiar and Mary Brandenburg, House Democrats who were cosponsors of the bill, tried to amend it. "We offered an amendment on the floor shifting the date to one within the Democratic party rules," said Brandenburg. "The Democrats all voted for it, and Republicans all voted against it." Actually, the Kiar/Brandenburg proposal did not completely comply with DNC directives, but it was a signal of the concerns Florida Dems had about the move-up legislation. Said Kiar: "No matter what, whether we supported it or cosponsored it, the Republican majority was going to push it through."

When the DNC sanctioned Florida, it critiqued the efforts of the Democratic leaders in both houses, suggesting that they'd merely gone through the motions of feigned opposition. But the House cosponsor of the bill, David Rivera, literally laughed on the floor at the Democratic amendment, according to the House Democrats. Going through the motions was all the outgunned Democrats could do. A DNC critic of Florida Democrats was reduced in a recent New York Times op-ed to citing remarks supporting the early primary made by state leaders after it was a fait accompli, likely because she couldn't make a case about their conduct before the Republican legislature set the date."

Tags: 2008, Democratic Presidential Primary, 2008 Florida Democratic Primary, 2008 Michigan Democratic Primary, DNC (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 99 comments

  •  No. Kos posted "Those poor Florida Democrats" Vid (5+ / 0-)

    earlier today.   Link for your erudition

    Sarcasm was dripping from them.

    They were arrogant.  They got spanked.  Now they don't like the outcome.

    Ultimately the primary system is in place the way it is so that there is not a hugely expensive media market out in front.

    Having Florida run first would kneecap all but the richest and most well connected candidates before they started.

    That overriding principle matters not just in this year, but it would seem, in years to come.

  •  wait (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MarkInSanFran, MJB, LiberalBadger, Dougie

    so it was going through no matter what. why vote for it then? if their vote was totally irrelevant to the outcome then vote against it. i still dont see the rationale for letting them off the hook.

  •  if the dems (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Owl of Minerva

    in Florida were so angry about being hoodwinked, why was it a laugh a minute??   I've sat around pols who get stuck between a rock and a hard place, its not pretty, the tension is palpable and nobody's laughing.

    This is more Hillary cares now because she needs the delegates prosyletizing.  She didn't care when she thought she would be crowned on Super Tuesday.  No point to change the rules just to make her closer in her losing efforts.  The more likely scenario is that Obama gets the supers prior to the convention with a sufficient majority and proposes a compromise to seat the delegations.

  •  I don't doubt that it is screwed up (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MJB, Neon Mama, Dougie

    But why was there no complaint from Clinton until she was behind in the primary.

    Why was there no complaint from anyone?

    There are three problems.

    1. That this happened in the first place.
    1. And what of the candidates who withdrew?  Will they be allowed to run again?  What if Edwards or Richardson wins both Florida and Michigan?
    1. That this is rallying cry issue for Clinton because she NOW needs those states.

    So yes they should have counted, but it was signed off in August that they wouldn't.  And AGREED to by all the candidates.

    I hope that this can be resolved for future primaries.

    The rules cannot change in mid stream.  

    •  Obama ran a TV ad before the Fla primary (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      PamelaD

      said it was part of a "national" buy and could not opt out for Fla.  Nevertheless, it WAS an ad that was seen by millions, including myself.  Everyone was on the ballot in Fla and Obama ran the only statewide TV ad.  Period.  Count the Fla votes and seat the damn delegates, Mr. Hope and Unity.

      •  You guys are really out of ammo, aren't you? (5+ / 0-)

        Clinton can not win - the arithmetic is clear. Clinton is the one screwing things up by dragging this out.

        Sorry about your candidate.

        Come see TV from the reality-based community at RealityBasedTV.com

        by MarkInSanFran on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:03:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's NOT about Clinton (0+ / 0-)

          do the Nov MATH without those 2 states.

          •  Not about Clinton. Not about Obama either. (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            shigeru, Virginia mom, Dougie

            There were always partisan positions here, and yes..  the Fla Repugs did a job hurting the Fla Dems.  The Dems DID enable them, and didn't have to.

            As for the positions, its not only Clinton or Obama.. there is also a DNC position.. one which seeks not to disenfranchise the 280 other million voters.

            •  GOP's already seen to that. IMHO. n/t (0+ / 0-)

              "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

              by bobswern on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:54:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm curious bobs... do you agree or (0+ / 0-)

                disagree regarding the potential of disenfranchising the majority of the US?

                Do you agree or disagree that a large media state should not go first?

                or you think that any state should be able to choose to go first regardless of its consequences?

                •  I'm against all disenfranchisement. (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Virginia mom

                  I am against the entire Primary system the way it's conducted in this country. It's a perversion that corrupts the will of the people almost as badly as our Electoral College.

                  It's the very definition of arcane.

                  I don't believe any state "should go first." I'm in favor of all primaries occurring on the same day; or, in lieu of that, I'd even settle for a series of three or four "super primaries," comprised of three or four groups of states totally 50+ (including P.R., U.S.V.I., etc., etc.).

                  That's what I believe.

                  Oh, and what I also would like to believe is that Kossacks can have a discussion about the contents of a diary like this without it devolving into a typical partisan candidate argument between Obama and Clinton supporters.

                  That was clearly not the intent of Barrett, the author of the piece, on which my diary focuses its comments here, as well.

                  This was a story about the GOP screwing over the Dems. Period. Any effort to turn commentary into something other than that would be to ignore the entire premise of Barrett's words, IMHO.

                  That is what I believe. That is my opinion.

                  "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

                  by bobswern on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:45:02 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I agree that the GOP probably gamed the Dems here (0+ / 0-)

                    Its also clear that the Dems ALLOWED THEMSELVES to be gamed.

                    I'd note that a national primary very likely ensures that the establishment candidate wins no questions asked.

                    Grouped primaries do make some sense, but ultimately the more I look, the more impressed I am by the advantages of the IA,NH first system:

                    Iowa and NH both clearly take their role seriously, and don't vote based on preconceived factors, or employ identity politics significantly.

                    They are economic media markets and well practiced in their role.  The people show up at varied events, families board campaign workers etc.

                    I'd welcome a rotating of the first states... provided they did as good a job as IA/NH, and provided smaller candidates had a shot considering media factors.

                    •  Boston (most of southern NH) is one of the... (0+ / 0-)

                      ...most expensive (on a per hh impression basis) media markets in the country, aside from being one of the biggest. It's even more expensive than most realize because of all the wasted MA impressions purchased in order to do a TV buy that hits southern NH, too.

                      IA, in comparison, is much cheaper.

                      I'd be a big proponent of grouped/regional primaries, if that ever saw the light of day as a real option.

                      "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

                      by bobswern on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:12:34 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  When pigs fly! (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    RFK Lives

                    Oh, and what I also would like to believe is that Kossacks can have a discussion about the contents of a diary like this without it devolving into a typical partisan candidate argument between Obama and Clinton supporters.

                    What is right or wrong about FL depends on who they support.  This is a partisan site that is all about the horse race.  Way too many posters at dkos "know" for certain exactly what is true, false, right, wrong, racist, and Naderish. They can see into the hearts and souls of people and clearly relate the motives of everyone about everything.   Others do try really hard to remain objective and credible.   Of the original group, I think OpenLeft is the most objective and reality-based.  It all depends on what you want.  

                    Certain states routinely get screwed over in lots of ways, and there is always a rationale.   NIMBY  

                    ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

                    by dkmich on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 03:13:01 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  The primary will be forgotten in November (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            thaelmann

            except by bitter diehards in the Clinton camp, who were going to vote for McCain anyway.

            Every primary generates single-candidate voters (Obama's got 'em too); they may stomp their feet and insist they'll take their toys and go home if we don't pick their candidate, but in the end they're statistically insignificant.

            Come November, the Democrats will rally behind the nominee.  If Clinton had a chance to win this thing, the same would have been true for her.

            There are people who say, "If music's that easy to write, I could do it." Of course they could, but they don't. - John Cage

            by RoscoeOfAlabama on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:57:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  FL and MI are annoying everyone else (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Morague

            Is this the kind of influence FL and MI want to have on the Democratic nomination process? Do what we say or we vote Republican? Not surprising that there's pushback to an argument like that.

            What kind of precedent does it set if Florida and Michigan get let off the hook? If there are no consequences to defying the DNC, then we'll be voting 13 months before the actual election next time around.

            Everyone knows that FL and MI will get the illusion of face, and their delegates will be seated in some fashion, but tossing the full results of the sham votes in January means the DNC's rules will be preserved to stand as a precedent for 2012. I'm fine with that.

      •  Who counts the votes of those who stayed home? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        rilkas

        Many people who would have voted if the contest had any meaning stayed home because they were told their votes would not count. So, they would be disenfranchised if the results are allowed to stand. Hillary agreed the results would not count and then reneged on that agreement. What would Clinton supporters say about Obama if he had done the same?

        Admit it, the only reason Hillary or her supporters care about FL getting counted is because they think it would give them an advantage, they really would not be making a fuss about it if the vote had gone Obama's way and they wouldn't get a net gain in delegates. Hillary doesn't give a fig about the voters in FL being disenfranchised, she just wants to fenagle some delegates out of the debacle.

        MI is another matter entirely, how can you count the votes when only one person was on the Ballot? Once again, Hillary went back on her word not to run in MI when she thought it might give her some advantage.

        The only fair solution was to have a re-vote in both states, but that isn't going to happen now and nobody is going to count those votes, so stop dreaming. This is the USA. If you want those kinds of election to select your leaders, then move to North Korea.

        You must be the change you want to see in the world. - Mahatma Gandhi

        by fetalposition on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:03:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  If this is an indisputable fact (0+ / 0-)

        then it shouldn't be getting attacked.

  •  Appreciate your diary (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bobswern

    What happened in Fla was a Republican dirty trick.  The current Gov. Crist is truly a wolf in sheep's clothing. Even a few Dems liked his seemingly bipartisan approach to some matters but in a short time he has wrought much havoc here...the primary fiasco being just one of them.  Fla will not recover until Dems regain the state legislature.
    Since my primary vote is not going to count, and that is OK with national Dems, local races are the only reason I'm going to have to vote in Nov.      

    •  Yes, and this is where Barrett's coming from... (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Neon Mama, PamelaD, louisprandtl

      I wish the folks here on DKos could get past their candidate-related rants and see just how badly Dem voters in Michigan and Florida are being hurt by--of all folks--manipulative Rethugs.

      This is the story; and, it's not being told...except by Barrett. And, it needs to be told--without ANY Obama or Clinton partisanship behind it.

      "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

      by bobswern on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 11:49:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Do ya'll want a Dem in the WH (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bobswern, PamelaD

    or McCain?

    Is this really ok? It's not about Clinton or Obama (imo), it's about Nov. Do you REALLY think we can just 86 the Dem voters in these states and win in Nov?

    I don't.

    •  I think many understand it. (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Ahianne, bobswern, Neon Mama, Dougie

      I have a cousin who lives in Florida and she understands what happened.  She is not happy, but she will vote in November and not for John McCain.

    •  Who is making a big stink about it? (8+ / 0-)

      Three months ago, nobody was up in arms.

      Florida had the vote, everyone knew it wasn't going to count, lots of folks who might have voted DIDN"T vote because IT WASN"T GOING TO COUNT.

      Sad, but not a tragedy.

      Now, one party is whipping up resentment.

      The Clinton camp is making this into "Mean Obama doesn't want the votes to count".

      If people in Florida associate the Obama campaign with trying to disenfranchise Florida voters in six months, it will be ONLY because of what Clinton and her camp are doing now.

      The sad part is, even if you count the votes in the Florida and Michigan pseudo-primaries, she's still behind, and will probably not catch up.

      So in the name of creating one last desperate lease on life for her campaign, she is whipping up resentments that could tank our party in the fall.

      This is leadership?

    •  Yes. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Neon Mama

      Because we told them ahead of time their vote wasn't going to count.

      There are people who say, "If music's that easy to write, I could do it." Of course they could, but they don't. - John Cage

      by RoscoeOfAlabama on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:58:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Voter suppression, the new improved 2008 model. (0+ / 0-)

        What. You thought Republicans were going to stick to caging or robocalls or rigged machines forever?

        Wake up and smell the dirty tricks.

        We need ONE ISSUE BILLS. Otherwise, the "other stuff" in the bill you voted down for one really bad thing, comes back to haunt you in attack ads. ie He voted no on ___________and ________ and_______.  

        Now do you get Obama's Illinois  "present" votes?  Some bills are damned if you do, damned if you don't. Unless you vote present, you get scalded for "not bothering to show up."

        Stop whining about their monkey wrench.  We were blindsided.  Suck it up. CHANGE THE MEME.

        Challenge Crist and FL. Repub. Legislature in session now.  Care about your voters?   Then vote unanimous to END JIM CROW law excluding ex-felons.  Thousands are still being cheated of their vote.
        This law made the 2000 phony felon purge possible.

        MOVE THE OVERTON WINDOW.  USE THEIR TRICK TO DO SOME GOOD. SHOW THEM UP FOR HYPOCRITES. Maybe we can learn from Obama by turning this FLORIDA lemon into beautiful lemonade.

        De fund + de bunk = de EXIT--->>>>>

        by Neon Mama on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:52:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm all for electoral reform (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Neon Mama

          but to somehow use that as an excuse to seat the tainted Florida primary is ridiculous.

          Fight Gov. Crist and the GOP legislature in Tallahassee?  Yes!  Hell yes!

          Fuck with our primary rules in retaliation?  Nope.

          There are people who say, "If music's that easy to write, I could do it." Of course they could, but they don't. - John Cage

          by RoscoeOfAlabama on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 08:45:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, I don't WANT my guys seated. Especially (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            DocGonzo, RoscoeOfAlabama

            our "supers" who should have taken paper trail, then immediately started funding a legal date for a separate, Florida Democratic primary date.Better Democrats needed.

            I'm saying -- seize the day -- use the spotlight. Change the meme of "Florida can't get it right" or "Florida is being cheated by Dumb Democrats." Make it Florida Democrats fight for VOTING JUSTICE.

            How about "Florida Democrats demand end to Jim Crow." Or "Florida Democrats fight for voting rights for the least of these."  Or "End TAXATION without REPRESENTATION."  Or "End scandalous voter discrimination."   Or "NOT THIS TIME."  Or "ALL voters COUNT or none count."

            Or "It's the Constitution, Stupid."  Prison is Previous Condition of Servitude. GIVE BACK THEIR VOTE --- get back a citizen.  End life sentences as non-citizen.

            Wipe the stain -- Restore the vote.

            Phooey, I can't get the "Perfect MEME" but it is in there somewhere.  Lift every heart, is a good cause.  It is long past time for unequal ex-felon vote from state to state -- it is unequal enforcement.

            De fund + de bunk = de EXIT--->>>>>

            by Neon Mama on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 09:28:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  How does this '86' November votes for Democrats? (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      PeterHug, Morague, rilkas, thaelmann

      Florida Dems won't become Republicans just because their state legislature is incompetent. And they won't stay home unless they like bad government.

      This whole issue is such a Macguffin for Clinton. If only FL and MI were seated, I'd be winning, and you'd all finally see that Obama's success was an illusion!

      There won't be too many people still stuck in that rabbit hole come crunch time. This election is too important to hold it hostage to overwraught blathering about pseudo-disenfranchisement.

  •  My suggestion... (0+ / 0-)

    Forget about whatever candidate you support in the Primary (then or now).

    Look at this from the clarity of Barrett's perspective and his brilliant accounting of these events.

    In Barrett's eyes, this isn't about Clinton or Obama. This is about the GOP screwing with Democrats at the state level--in key states to boot--to screw us nationally.

    For just a few moments, forget about our candidates' positions. Think about the Democratic voters in Florida and Michigan getting totally fucked by the opposition party screwing with their right to be heard.

    This is the story that Barrett's recounting. And, it is brilliantly told, too.

    "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

    by bobswern on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 11:45:12 PM PDT

    •  Okay.. but is it a good precident to have a huge (5+ / 0-)

      media market go first in a Primary, as I've said, crippling smaller candidates.

      Its not just about voter franchise in Florida

      Crippling a candidate by making them compete for viability in this market basically disenfranchises voters in 49 more states.

    •  I have read it on Huffington's (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      highacidity, Neon Mama, Dougie

      But it doesn't change anything.  I already know that the Republicans suck the big one.

      But everyone knew that it would not count.  Why are we in the middle of the primary and discussing this?

      It is too late.

      •  Because most folks don't take the time... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Neon Mama

        ...to take a look at all of the facts.

        And, the facts are the Republicans are more to blame for this--in Florida anyway--than anyone else.

        I wasn't digging any deeper until Barrett laid the whole thing out in his story. And, it's brilliant for its true depth.

        And, if you're a Dem voter--particularly in Florida--or a member of the DNC, you should be screaming to the mountains about this outrage, and making a sincere effort to take the partisanship (btwn. Clinton supporters versus Obama supporters, anyway) OUT of this conversation. And, nailing the Florida GOP for railroading the Dem's in that state--and NATIONALLY--on this matter.

        Why isn't THIS story getting out there?

        That's why it's important now. This is f**king 2000 Redux!

        "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

        by bobswern on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:23:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Here's how I see it: (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      highacidity, AndrewOG, Neon Mama

      FL and MI were told over and over that if they moved up their primary, they'd lose all their delegates.

      They let it happen, now they pay the consequences.

      And no, they were not hoodwinked; go find Carl Levin's thoughts on the Michigan caucus.  They played chicken with Chairman Dean and lost.

      There are people who say, "If music's that easy to write, I could do it." Of course they could, but they don't. - John Cage

      by RoscoeOfAlabama on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:59:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Where Was Their Outrage (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Neon Mama

      months ago when this started?  There was none.  They shrugged their shoulders and said, "Oh, well."  It was only when Hillary started chanting disenfranchisement that it hit the fan.

      I understand what you mean, but the fact is, no one was screaming about it until it was too late.

  •  "Out of context" (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    highacidity, Dougie

    In the video the guy seemed obnoxiously arrogant and sarcastic regarding his "objections" to the date of the primary.

    Am I missing something in the context that says otherwise? What possible context explains what we saw on that video in any other way?

    John McCain - Like W. Only Older.

    Funny McCain Pics archive updated regularly

    by InsultComicDog on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 11:47:09 PM PDT

    •  Read Barrett's piece, in its entirety. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Neon Mama

      It explains it all better than anything that I've read...anywhere.

      At the end of the day, at least the Dems will have a paper trail in future elections in FL. FL Dems did get that much out of this clusterf**k.

      But, this is something that should be looked at objectively, without partisanship (as to whether you're for Obama or Clinton). This is about one party disenfranchising another party's voters, and undermining the other party on a national level, too (as a byproduct of a state-based effort).

      "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

      by bobswern on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 11:54:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Don't know (6+ / 0-)

    about the FL portion but his retelling of the MI primary clusterfuck is really shaky.

    I have read the "good faith effort" passages in the DNC rules: I am pretty sure that refers to a situation where the primary is moved up entirely outside D control-- not where the Democratic House passes an illegal date, the Republican Senate agrees, and then the Democratic Governor then signs the bill. Especially when the all the top Democrats in the state were pushing the early primary. Especially when the the MDP was looking at hold a caucus in DECEMBER. There is no way this was somehow forced on the MDP.

    •  To some extent, I agree with you. (0+ / 0-)

      The situation in Florida is far more incriminating against the GOP than the situation in Michigan. But, the GOP did screw with the Dems in Michigan; just not as blatantly as....surprise...freakin' Florida!

      "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

      by bobswern on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:02:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly (4+ / 0-)

      I found Barrett's article to be an example of very shoddy journalism. Notice how he says:

      The presumption of much of the national coverage about Michigan, to start with, has been that the Dems did this one to themselves -- a presumption based, in large part, on Democratic governor Jennifer Granholm's endorsement of a January 15 vote

      Well, um, yeah, that would tend to validate that "presumption"(!). But it gets better. He then says:

      All Clinton-backer Granholm did, however, was a[sic] sign a bill.

      Yeah. That's "all" she did. Don't you think that's just a tad significant? You know, like signing a bill into law?? Yet he completely dismisses that.

      I live in Michigan. The MI Democrats wanted the early primary, and so did Granholm, who no doubt thought it would help Clinton. No one put a gun to her head to force her to sign that bill. Barrett's article, in fact, probably does more damage to the Clinton camp's efforts to force a re-do. It shows in much greater detail, really, how this whole mess could've been avoided in MI if the state Democrats had their act together. And it even shows how in FL the Democrats pulled an "I voted for it but was really against it", a la Hillary, when there was no rational reason to do so. If there was a point Barrett was trying to get across, I don't think he made a very good case for it at all!

      By the way, I can't speak for FL, but as a MI resident I can assure you that MI Democratic voters are not up in arms over this. This is something being fought over in some very narrow circles. Obama will carry MI in November. This isn't Ohio. :)

      "Because things are the way they are, things will not stay the way they are." -- Bertolt Brecht

      by thaelmann on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:08:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  FL is much more damning to the GOP... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Hear Our Voices, Neon Mama

        ...to some extent, I agree with you, actually.

        It seems clear to me--and even to journalist Barrett--that the Florida situation is clearly a GOP-created problem. As I say elsewhere in these comments: "...Michigan not so much."

        Florida GOP'ers doing to the Dems what they did in 2000...just a little more creative about it this time 'round. And, it is a national problem for the Party, too.

        "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

        by bobswern on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:21:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  And you know what pisses me off the most?? (6+ / 0-)

    Hillary Clinton is using them for her own purposes.  She could have cared less about them when she thought this was going to be a cakewalk.  And since she needs them now, she is going to talk about counting the votes.

    She makes me sick.  I know that is strong, but she does.  I have no respect for the Clintons because they are duplicitous. And I could just kick myself for ever having supported them.

    •  I wish I could go back to the days when (0+ / 0-)

      I supported them.  We had more money, prestige and I know at last 4000 families that were a whole lot happier. Those Clintons really suck.  

    •  There are comments pre-dating her (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      bobswern

      'needing them to count' that say they should count.

      If the Obama folks are so big on math, you would think they would have done it in regards to these 2 states.

      •  Are these comments before New Hampshire or after? (0+ / 0-)

        John McCain - Like W. Only Older.

        Funny McCain Pics archive updated regularly

        by InsultComicDog on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:41:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Why is this so damn complicated? (4+ / 0-)

        States that are usually in the middle or end of the primary season ALL wanted to be first, including my state of CT.  We were allowed to move up to Super Tuesday where we actually counted for something for once. Florida and Michigan jumped Super Tuesday, they were told that there would be consequences but the Democrats in those states assumed they could play chicken with Dean and win. They moved up their dates and the were slapped for it. They were told they could hold new primaries that would count. They have not held them not because Obama is out to disenfranchise voters (you do realize that Obama worked as a community organizer and civil rights lawyer, right?) but because the states still can't get their acts together.  If Florida was really forced into this position by Republicans, wouldn't they have come up with a plan B for figuring out how to create and finance a primary on a valid day? I know my state would have.  The evidence is that Florida Democrats purposely and knowingly did this in an attempt to strong arm the national party and then whined about it when things did not go according to their plan.

        The votes as they stand now can not be used.  It actually disenfranchises voters because people were told that they would not count so potentially people could have voted differently or not at all. I would have voted for either Edwards or Kucinich if I voted at all, if told that my vote would not count.  You simply can not change the rules after the event.  The time to take this up would have been right after the states went ahead with their plans despite knowing the consequences.  Hillary was extraordinarily silent then for being so concerned about this issue.

        •  So..."simplicity" is more important than truth? (0+ / 0-)

          Do you work for the MSM?

          Sometimes the truth is complicated.

          And, at that point, that means it's a truth that's contorted by the MSM and others, too. (To suit their needs.)

          This situation in Florida is an instance of that very reality.

          "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

          by bobswern on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:09:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  MI and FL contests were "exhibition games" (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Ahianne, highacidity, pgm 01, Neon Mama

            and Hillary is now like an NFL team that has no shot at making the playoffs, so she wants to change the rules by counting "exhibition games" wins in her won-loss column.

            If you're trying to make an argument that FL ought to have delegates at the DNC, then propose a fair allocation, such as 50-50, or give each candidate the same percentage of FL pledged delegates as their percentage of pledged delegates in all other primaries and caucuses combined.  

            But it would be just as silly to count Hillary's "exhibition wins" as real contests as it would for the NFL to put the Miami Dolphins in the playoffs, despite a lousy regular-season record, on the basis of winning a few preseason exhibitions.

            So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.

            by MJB on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:21:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Basically the point the diarist is making is that (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Ahianne, RoscoeOfAlabama, thaelmann

    Florida Democrats traded it's delegates being seated for a paper trail. Because thats what this really amounts too. They knew the rules, they knew what the outcome of breaking those rules would be and they broke the rules so they could have a paper trail.

    Thats fine and dandy I hope they're happy with that trade.

    Shameless Plug: Check out my band Losers of the Year we rock if I do say so myself.

    by DeanDemocrat on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:38:25 AM PDT

  •  Clearly moving the dates up (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DeanDemocrat, Hear Our Voices

    would have been an advantage for Senator Clinton had the DNC not stepped in.

    This gave the lesser known candidate, Senator Obama, less time to establish himself in such a large state.

    To my knowledge, Hillary did not object until after Iowa and New Hampshire, not wanting to offend voters in these states.

    John McCain - Like W. Only Older.

    Funny McCain Pics archive updated regularly

    by InsultComicDog on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:40:10 AM PDT

    •  Don't you mean it would've been a good advantage (0+ / 0-)

      ...for you to poop on?

      Shameless Plug: Check out my band Losers of the Year we rock if I do say so myself.

      by DeanDemocrat on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:42:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  FL has nothing to do with the Obama-Clinton meme (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Hear Our Voices, Neon Mama

        ...in fact.

        That's the entire point of Barrett's piece.

        This is about Florida GOP'ers f**king with Florida Dems, and with the Party, nationally. (Michigan...not so much.)

        That is the true story. And, it's an inconvenient truth.

        It's about 2000 Redux.

        But, it's being contorted into something very different than that because it's convenient.

        That's it. That's the point Barrett's making. That's why I'm bringing it up here.

        And, the truth just isn't popular.

        "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

        by bobswern on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:00:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hillary sucked up all the oxygen on that (0+ / 0-)

          Any chance that Barrett's version of events would get play was crowded out by Clinton's heroic determination to stand up for Florida -- not against the Republicans in the FL state legislature, but against evil Obama, who was somehow making this bad outcome happen.

          Clinton's version is much sexier.

      •  unfortunately (0+ / 0-)

        there's not too much humor in this thread. good attempt though.

        A hungry feeling came o'er me stealing...

        by AndrewOG on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 04:37:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The Logic About Primaries is Baffling (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    PeterHug, Ahianne

    Other states don't pay for primaries so the state parties hold caucuses. If the states of Michigan and Florida were unwilling to pay for a caucuses that conformed to party rules the State Parties were free to do what ever other state does where the state refuses to pay for a primary--hold a caucus or primary  within the rules and the State Party pays.  

  •  I disapprove of your rhetoric, but I think (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    rilkas, bobswern

    it's wrong to let Republicans keep Democrats from voting in the Democratic primary.

    We shouldn't count the original primaries, but we have to figure out some way to include the Florida and Michigan delegates.

  •  I'm always impressed when (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    PeterHug

    the truth is in bold. It makes it so much more.... truthier.

    Vote for McCain to continue the fight against al-Qaeda, vote for Obama to finish it. </war>

    by Calouste on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:32:47 AM PDT

    •  My truth is better-- (0+ / 0-)

      ALL CAPS, BOLD, AND ITALIC?

      How can you resist?

    •  Sometimes... (0+ / 0-)

      ...to get the truth out around here, a little emphasis is necessary. It's better than ALL CAPS or a bunch of exclamation po!!!!!nts, IMHO.

      Then again, sometimes, if it's on video--even when it's out of context--that's even more emphatic than bold type. And, often, more effective than bold type, too. "If it's on TV, it must be true."

      Then again...

      Blockquoted comments, without respect to accuracy of the content, works wonders, as well.

      Why let a little thing like a detail get in the way of making a point, right? We all know that sometimes style trumps truth, too.

      Who was it that said: "Politics is perception?"

      "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

      by bobswern on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 02:00:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This Michigander says the diarist is dead wrong (3+ / 0-)

    The legislation that made the January 15 Train Wreck Primary possible was passed by a Republican-controlled state senate and a Democratic-controlled state house, and signed by a Democratic governor who supports HRC.

    The legislation provided that either major party could opt out if it chose. However, the panjandrums of the Michigan Democratic Party decided to go ahead even though they knew full well at the time that they risked being stripped of their delegates.

    Michigan's Democratic establishment should not be rewarded for its incompetence and arrogance, and HRC should not be rewarded for her hypocrisy and whining.

    John McCain's Straight Talk Express runs on fossil fuels.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 04:02:43 AM PDT

  •  This has been diaried twice before today. (0+ / 0-)

    Please delete.

    "The fact which the politician faces is merely that there is less honor among thieves than was supposed, and not the fact that they are thieves." Thoreau

    by shigeru on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 04:09:04 AM PDT

  •  You should just drop this (0+ / 0-)

    It's all bullshit and a total facade. If Florida Democrats were really not on board with this and had no choice, we would have heard months of complaining. But we did not.

    A hungry feeling came o'er me stealing...

    by AndrewOG on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 04:42:03 AM PDT

  •  Here's a solution... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Praxxus

    MI - clearly did not make a good faith effort and even tried this same crap in 2004.  The automatic 50% reduction + 25% extra.  No way to deal with Clinton leaving her name on the ballot, cross-over campaign, etc. so sit the remaining at 50/50.

    128 @ 25% = 32 for the state.

    Clinton - 16 delegates
    Obama - 16 delegates

    FL - clearly some Repub shenanigans going on so just make it the automatic 50%.  Split based on the results.

    185 @ 50% = 92.5

    Clinton (50%) = 46.5 delegates
    Obama (33%)   = 31 delegates
    Edwards (14%) = 13 delegates

    That leaves 2 delegates from other candidates.
    Split them between Clinton and Obama.

    That gives Clinton a +15.5 delegate change.

    Done.  Can we stop this stupid ass shit now.
    Please.

    •  oh and the HuffPost piece was biased as hell n/t (0+ / 0-)

      •  Not it was (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Praxxus, Neon Mama

        a fair and balanced extremely well written article penned by an investigative genius who spent his first 6 paragraphs getting little digs in on Obama, feels that a little thing like signing a bill into LAW is not really much in the way of actions and that when the State House voted in favor of the bill it then became law - someone needs to review their Schoolhouse Rock.

        That is brlliant in the new age of Bush - when you set the bar that low everyone becomes "brilliant".

        "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

        by newfie on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 06:19:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  It is not about Hillary... (0+ / 0-)

    it is about having a chance of winning FL in the GE...

    Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

    by dvogel001 on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 05:51:13 AM PDT

  •  But I'm still wondering (0+ / 0-)

    How does that video of Geller fit into this whole thing?  It really undercuts the idea of FL dems being steamrolled by the republicans.  Does anyone have any context for that?  Or did I miss it?

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