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Why Climate Denialists are Blind to Facts and Reason: The Role of Ideology

Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:31:45 AM PDT

A recent post by Joe Romm over at Climate Progress, The denialists are winning, especially with the GOP, in which he cited a Pew Poll showing that 13% fewer Republicans believe in global warming now than did a year ago, drew a huge number of denialist responses. After reading them all (groan) it struck me that it might be useful to analyze who climate denialists are and why they behave as they do.

Anyone who has tried to discuss Climaticide with a climate change denialist knows just how frustrating it can be. No matter how well informed you are, no matter how many peer-reviewed studies you cite, or how many times you point out the overwhelming agreement based on the evidence that exists among climate scientists that global warming is real and is principally caused by human fossil fuel use, you will get no where. Your adversary will deny the facts, cherry pick the scientific evidence for bits of data that, taken out of context, support his/her denialist view, or drag out long-debunked counter-arguments in the hope that they are unfamiliar to you and that you will not be able to refute them. If you succeed in countering all of his arguments he will most likely reword them and start all over again.

After a couple of hours of this, you end up frustrated, angry and confused. You give up and storm off vowing to study and learn even more so that next time you will be better prepared and able to convince the denialist of the error of his/her ways.  But despite all your efforts, the next time you fare no better. What, you wonder, am I doing wrong?

The answer is simply that you are operating off of a mistaken premise. You think that the question of whether or not climate change is real and has an anthropogenic (human) cause is a question to be answered by application of an open mind, research, facts, and critical thinking. Isn't that how scientists approach these problems? They're skeptical and critique each others work, discarding ideas which fail to stand up to scrutiny by their colleagues and replacing them with ones that better describe the facts.

Denialists, however, have no interest in facts except as weapons in an ideological struggle.  They don't even care if "facts" are correct or not since their intention is not to establish that something is true or false, but rather to win a battle in an ideological war. If they can stump you or confuse you with a lie, well that works just as well for their purposes as does the truth.

When I speak about denialists, mind you, I'm not talking about people who are skeptical only because they are uninformed about the issue. Nor, am I talking about scientists who disagree with other scientists over the details of global warming i.e. What will the earth's temperature be if we allow CO2 to reach 550 parts per million, twice the pre-industrial level (so-called climate sensitivity)?

No, the true climate change denialist is an ideologue. Understanding this fact is key to comprehending the denialist mentality and to knowing how to respond to denialist arguments.

Ideologues are adherents of closed, ideological systems, in which all problems are ultimately attributed to a single cause: original sin (Christianity), the accumulation of private property (Communism), restrictions imposed on a superior race by inferior ones (Fascism), the destruction of "freedom" by "Big Government" (Conservative/Libertarian). These are all a priori systems. Once the initial conclusion is reached (often after a long, complicated chain of deductive reasoning--Marx's Capital, the writings of Ayn Rand, etc.) that factor X is the source of all of society's ills, all debate outside the ideology's framework ends. One may deduce new positions from the ideology's fundamental principles, but the fundamental principles can not be questioned because such questioning might undermine the entire ideological system and the psychological security that it provides, leaving the true believer in that most urgently to be avoided of states: UNCERTAINTY.  Ideology is thus, inevitably, by it's very nature, anti-empirical.

An ideologue doesn't believe that he needs to know the details of an issue in order to make policy decisions because his ideology provides him with a ready formula for solving all problems. Where ideologues run into difficulties however, is when the real world throws up problems that don't fit the ideology's problem categories.

For conservative/libertarian ideologues who compose the overwhelming majority of denialists, Climaticide is just such a case. If a conservative/libertarian ideologue were to accept global warming as real then he/she would be forced to admit that the problem is so big and so complex that government action is required to deal with it. But for an conservative/libertarian ideologue that is impossible because he/she believes that government is the cause of ALL problems and that the solution to all problems is "freedom".

Denialists frequently make this attitude explicit when they accuse the "liberals" concerned about climate change of having invented it as an excuse to expand government.  The latest version of this tactic that I've encountered is that none of the science in support of global warming need be taken seriously because it is the product of government-paid scientists who are only doing their bureaucratic masters' bidding, apparently forgetting that the current "masters" are themselves Climaticide denialists.

Witness a denialist response to the assertion that most scientists believe in the reality of global warming from the Climate Progress blog I referenced above.

This is actual (sic) a very small group of people. It doesn’t include the millions of other scientist (sic) and engineers who have training in physics and chemistry and are quite capable of understaning (sic) the phony balony (sic) being tauted (sic) by the IPCC and its affilliated (sic) white-coated welfare queens. [my emphasis]

Government science is corrupt science because it's government science. "Scientist's" in the pay of the oil and gas industries on the other hand are free of this corruption because they are doing science for the capitalist heroes who defend our "freedom".

The Soviets understood this way of thinking perfectly because Marxism too is an ideology, only in Marxism the great enemy is not the State but private capital. It's no accident that in the former Soviet Union a clear distinction was made between bourgeois science and Soviet science. According to this view there are no facts only political points of view.

That there are no facts outside the "truths" of one's ideology is a basic, if not always publicly expressed, tenet, of all ideologues be they religious zealots, communists, fascists or libertarian-conservatives.

Arguing with such people is a waste of time because they only listen to facts in order desperately to compose counter arguments. I say desperately because ideologues find psychological safety from an uncertain world in the certainties of their ideology. What you think of as an argument about global warming, they perceive as an attack on their entire world view.  And they're right of course, even though it's not your intention.

So how does one talk to a climate denialist?  I think a good answer comes from JMG's comment on the Climate Progress blog that inspired this diary.

I once took a seminar on politics from a very successful campaign manager. He pointed out that the typical wonk (insert: scientist) will find a crowd of people and, within a few minutes, is in a hot debate with the person most opposed to his opinions. And that the smart pol disengages with that person as fast as possible, using his time to reach out to and reinforce his connection to the people who are already favorably disposed to him or have not yet reached a conclusion.

I’ve observed the unfortunate wonky tendency in myself over the years, and I sure as hell have observed it in nearly all the climate scientists and policy wonks — they’re so busy chasing idiots like the one above that they don’t have time to reach the persuadables.

In short, one should generally ignore the denialists and concentrate on persuading the open minded. They are the ones you should be trying to reach. The denialists are already beyond the pale. They will only be convinced once all the sea ice and polar bears are gone, it's a 130 degrees in the shade in a drought-stricken Las Vegas and we have suffered multiple large scale disasters on our own territory, if then.

Now lest I be accused of simplifying reality myself, let me add a few words about what I perceive as the 4 basic categories of Climaticide denialists and their relationship to ideology.

The categories are:

  1. Plutocrats
  1. Shills
  1. Literate conservative/libertarian ideologues
  1. The right-wing booboisie

For the plutocrats, ideology is mostly a cover for their greed and a thin salve for whatever conscience they have left. For the shills (scientists and academics paid by the plutocrats to deny global warming), ideology is an indispensable tool, required by their corporate masters, and useful in   providing intellectual ammunition to categories 3 and 4 and for bamboozling the uninformed public at large. For information on the relationships between the plutocrats and the shills follow this link and click on MAP EXXON'S NETWORK.

For the literate ideologues, their ideology is central to their political views and to their world view.  I suspect that there are many engineers and other technical professionals in this category along with much of the business class, but that is a subject for another diary. The right-wing booboisie, (the Rush Limbaugh fanatics et.al) have also bought the conservative/libertarian ideological view but they purchased it in the alley at the back door, since they would never be allowed into the store through the front door.  These are the resentful poor and poorly educated who have bought the culture wars frame or who, because of their social conservatism have embraced the ideology of the Robber Barons in a fight against mythical elites who keep them enslaved by driving Volvos, drinking lattes and removing their 10-commandment plaques from public buildings. I suspect that booboisie also harbors hopes of some day becoming plutocrats themselves, once the oppressive hand of Big Government is lifted from them and their "freedom" is restored.

For those of us in the reality-based community, understanding the role that conservative/libertarian ideology plays in determining Climaticide denialist behavior, whether sincere or simulated, can be very useful in making sense of the denialist position, a position which, ultimately, is rooted not in facts and critical thinking, but in political and psychological needs.

Crossposted at Climaticide Chronicles

Tags: Climaticide, denialists; ideology, conservatives, global warming, climate change, Rescued (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 106 comments

  •  This is a good piece ... (10+ / 0-)

    thank you, with a lot of work / thought into it. Thank you for wading through the 156 comments to Joe's post.

    My scratch the surface effort in this vein was: Sourcing Skepticism ... what factors drive questioning of Global Warming? If / when I updat that, I will use your work as a touchstone.

  •  Same problem as dealing with (8+ / 0-)

    Intelligent Design/creationism purveyors. Same remedy as well, I guess. Talk to the people who are not absolutely dedicated to the ideology.

    John McCain--not so much old as obsolete.

    by ohiolibrarian on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:45:43 AM PDT

  •  Good piece with interesting points (11+ / 0-)

    One thing that is worth mentioning is their sheer inability to be wrong out of fear of hurting their egos.

    I was talking about this with a friend earlier.  When they're pointed out that they are wrong they are infused with sheer anger.

    It doesn't matter what the facts are whether it's Global Warming, Iraq, abstinence only education, the economy etc. once it's pointed out that their policies were wrong they'll fabricate anything to conceal just how wrong they were.

    "In the stream of consciousness, There is a river crying, Living comes much easier, Once we admit, We're dying." - Petrucci

    by Ex Real Republican on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:50:20 AM PDT

    •  It's all motivated by the same thing, the (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      buckhorn okie, lgmcp, Munchkn

      conviction that their ideology makes them infallible.  Since all their policy decisions are rooted in their ideology any attack on any policy is seen as a general attack on the ideology as whole. They don't believe that they can admit specific failings without admitting to a general one.

      "My True Religion Is Kindness" -- The Dalai Lama/---/Do you know why 350ppm is important?

      by JohnnyRook on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:55:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  They invariably have a personal stake (4+ / 0-)

      Being different from the conventional wisdom allows them the fantasy that they are ahead of the rest of the people in recognizing the Truth. That makes them superior.

      They always take this position in order to feel superior and be able to look down on those who accept the (in their eyes) wrong conventional wisdom.

      It should be no surprise that they tend to get angry when it is proven that they are wrong and everyone recognizes they are wrong. They have been dethroned. They can't place themselves on the pedestal beside Winston Churchill during his anti Nazi period in the political boondocks. They feel they are in that "in the boondocks" period in their life, and like Churchill, will be later recognized for the genius they really are.

      Anger is a normal reaction to being dethroned.

      Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

      by Rick B on Mon May 12, 2008 at 09:05:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But it needn't _be_ dethroning (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        buckhorn okie, Picot verde

        These guys have a power that you and I don't - the power to reach their former-fellow doubters and enlighten them.  They have credibility within their culture.

        And I hope for their sake and their children's sake that they make full use of it.

        •  It's their perception that matters (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          JohnnyRook

          Such hierarchy-based individuals consider any disagreement a threat to dethrone them. That's why they attack those who disagree with them so hard.

          It doesn't matter how many agree with them. Those people are not threats. Only those who disagree are dangers to their position.

          Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

          by Rick B on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:11:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Climate Denialists need open eyes to global warm (3+ / 0-)

    Anybody who still doesn't think we humans need to change our environmental ways does not have thei eyes open...

  •  Thoughtful analysis (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    buckhorn okie, JohnnyRook, Munchkn

    and there is much in here that fits the case admirably.  However I think you underestimate a pyschological force even more powerful that ideology:  rank fear.  

    Yes, I believe that many, perhaps even most, denialists, are, deep down underneath where they can't admit it even to themselves ... well aware of the reality of our planetary peril.  

    They know.  And they despair.  They despair because they know that they, personally, do not have the will to change, nor to abandon their ideology to promote change.  They know how many others are like themselves.  

    And they so figure, what the hell, party like it's 1999. Make hay while the sun shines.  Get mine while the gettin' is good.  

    Because they know that this inexorable natural process has a momentum far beyond our belated and half-hearted will to engage it.

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:19:39 PM PDT

    •  I think that we're all frightened, as well (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Rick B, silence, buckhorn okie, lgmcp, AHaynes

      we should be.  Even without global warming life is frightening because it is not black and white, it does not have an obvious meaning, it is not clear what we should do with our lives.  The difference is how we react to that uncertainty and fear. Some people respond by embracing an ideology which promises coherence, meaning and a sense of control that comes from being part of a movement that knows "all the answers." If that's your motivation, you're not likely to embrace the evidence for global warming because you're not simply scared of the consequences of heating the planet, you terrified of having your world view overturned and being returned to a state of uncertainty. We're talking existential fear here.

      "My True Religion Is Kindness" -- The Dalai Lama/---/Do you know why 350ppm is important?

      by JohnnyRook on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:33:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The void is the creatrix, the matrix (3+ / 0-)

        and we all fear it, even as we strive to learn to acknowledge and embrace it.  But I think you are correct that those who cling to a daddy-knows-best flavor of authoritarian world view are especially deficient in their ability to face the void.

        "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

        by lgmcp on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:35:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Their strategy (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    buckhorn okie, JohnnyRook

    My impression is that the strategy of the moment is to induce strong denial of human-induced climate change among Republicans, rather than the general public.  The idea is probably not to win the debate, but to provide support for a 2009 or 2010 filibuster.

    Somehow, we need to sway a chunk of people who are paying attention mostly to the right-wing noise machine.

    •  I think that that is one of the goals of Al (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Rick B, silence, buckhorn okie

      Gore's new advertising campaign. It will not, however, have any effect on ideologues because Al Gore is already clearly identified by them as the enemy, so nothing that he or anyone associated with him says need be taken seriously.  I've heard all of Gore's actions in opposition to climate change explained away as an attempt to  create hysteria so that people will buy goods from a couple of green companies he's invested in.

      The message has to focus on the non-ideological part of the population and on those ideologues whose ideology is not inextricably tied up with the political far-right.  Certain Christian groups, for example.

      "My True Religion Is Kindness" -- The Dalai Lama/---/Do you know why 350ppm is important?

      by JohnnyRook on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:46:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Whoa, look in the mirror my friends (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    buckhorn okie, JohnnyRook, SpamNunn, shann

    Your diary is very interesting, but you'd better have a look in the mirror (and I will too). We are all driven by fear and ideology to some extent....we all believe things because of our emotional reactions rather than our cognition. Let's admit it. If we saw a headline tomorrow that said "We're winning in Iraq" or "Climate crisis solved" none of US would believe THAT either. it wouldn't matter how many sherry-sipping WSJ subscribers argued their case......

    To be fair I do think the left is more reality-driven than the right, but we're not pure here.

    "A clown is like aspirin, only he works twice as fast" - Groucho Marx

    by Morpheus on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:49:13 PM PDT

    •  I don't make any claims of purity for the left (5+ / 0-)

      but you're right when you say:

      To be fair I do think the left is more reality-driven than the right, but we're not pure here.

      We wouldn't deserve (and sometimes some us don't) the name of "reality based" if that were not the case.

      I do think your example is specious.

      Let's admit it. If we saw a headline tomorrow that said "We're winning in Iraq" or "Climate crisis solved" none of US would believe THAT either. it wouldn't matter how many sherry-sipping WSJ subscribers argued their case......

      We wouldn't believe those headlines because they're not supported by facts.  The Climaticide denialists reject the reality of global warming despite the fact that it's overwhelmingly supported by facts.

      "My True Religion Is Kindness" -- The Dalai Lama/---/Do you know why 350ppm is important?

      by JohnnyRook on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:07:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If I was told that we were winning in Iraq (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      buckhorn okie, JohnnyRook, Munchkn

      I'd first check the source and look for confirmation, and if there were any way it could be true then I would investigate further.

      [First I'd have to hear what there was in Iraq that could possible be won. It is impossible to win without a goal, which is where we currently are. The only current goal seems to be to keep our military in Iraq.]

      Show me a denialist who would take that much effort to find out they were wrong.

      Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

      by Rick B on Mon May 12, 2008 at 09:14:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Fair enough but my point still stands (0+ / 0-)

        I agree; that's exactly what I'd do; and you're right there's no goal other than the war itself in Iraq.  

        My point though is simply that we are fools if we think that the right is uniquely irrational or uniquely ideological. All humans are irrational and a lot of us are ideological. Even people on the left dismiss arguments for ideological or emotional reasons without looking at the facts.

        I happen to think people on the left are generally smarter too, but that sure is self-serving ;)

        "A clown is like aspirin, only he works twice as fast" - Groucho Marx

        by Morpheus on Tue May 13, 2008 at 07:52:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you are missing my point (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          JohnnyRook

          we are fools if we think that the right is uniquely irrational or uniquely ideological. All humans are irrational and a lot of us are ideological.

          This is true. But it looks at the right and the left as only collections of individuals. They aren't. There are group dynamics on both sides that are sharply different.

          But the right takes certain irrational views and makes belief in them a mark of membership in their group. That's why they consider any disagreement to be treason. Disagreement means - to them - that you are abandoning and even attacking the group. That becomes treason (or heresy if you are a fundamentalist religious person.)The right replaces individual discussion and questioning with a hierarchical leadership structure and a set of catechisms that you have to regurgitate in order to belong to the group.

          The fundamentalist Marxist-Leninism that created and maintained the USSR also operated the same way. That was also the difference between Marxist-Leninism and the western Social Democrats. all the Fascist ideologies used a similar internal mechanism. A certain, often irrational, catechism that members had to regurgitate on command together with a strong hierarchical leadership and a set of procedures for passing judgment on and rejecting heretics.

          This is a social phenomenon, not an individual one. There are lefties with strong beliefs in irrational ideas, but the society we operate in encourages discussion, disagreement, and honest recognition of different points of view.

          I suspect it is why progressives are attracted to and use the Internet and why Fascists and conservatives don't do so nearly as successfully. It's the difference between top down control and a free-for-all with rules of fair play and systems for developing consensus. The right-wingers operate by repressing disagreement, something the Internet does not (yet) allow.

          Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

          by Rick B on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:23:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I'm a denialist, of sorts... (0+ / 0-)

    Personally, I can neither confirm nor deny the accuracy of the science, since I am not a climatologist (and neither are you ... probably). But, I know that consensus does not equal truth and that peer review does not guarantee truth either. I know from personal experience that not 1 in 100 economic "experts" actually knows what he's talking about, so I'm generally wary of "consensuses", even if we have one in the GW community. There was consensus 100 years ago among the scientific community with regard to the existence of an ether/aether. This concept is now widely rejected.
    BUT, even if we grant the accuracy of the science, the question of action is purely economic. Every action comes at the expense of another action. This is necessarily so. So ....
    Any action taken to solve the (potential) problem of global warming comes at the cost of solving other, more urgent problems. For example, "solving  the climate problem" means dedicating less time and money toward solving the VERY REAL problem of cancer, deaths on the roads, etc.. This is purely a question of resource allocation, and the government is extremely ill-suited to this task, even if they have our best interest at heart, which they usually don't (for a detailed examination of this, see Ludwig Von Mises' "Socialism" -- free on the web)
    Considering the speculative nature of the GW problem (the employment of models, and the VERY speculative predictions of impacts on the highly-adaptive categories of  flora and fauna (including humans)), I personally feel like worring about global warming is akin to worrying about your cholesterol level when you've been shot in the face. Most people either intuitively or explicitly know this to be the case. I don't expect to convince anyone here, but this is why your battle is being lost.

    •  Thank you for providing such a fine example of (6+ / 0-)

      the denialist ideologue position.

      Any action taken to solve the (potential) problem of global warming comes at the cost of solving other, more urgent problems

      .. This is purely a question of resource allocation, and the government is extremely ill-suited to this task, even if they have our best interest at heart, which they usually don't (for a detailed examination of this, see Ludwig Von Mises' "Socialism"

      Considering the speculative nature of the GW problem (the employment of models, and the VERY speculative predictions of impacts on the highly-adaptive categories of  flora and fauna (including humans))

      No facts at all, just a priori assertions about the economic incompetence of government (Von Mises is to Libertarian economic theory as Marx is to Communist economic theory) and unsubstantiated claims of "more urgent problems" and "speculative predictions".

      "My True Religion Is Kindness" -- The Dalai Lama/---/Do you know why 350ppm is important?

      by JohnnyRook on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:28:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually (0+ / 0-)

        I gave examples...
        I KNOW that millions of people will die from cancer THIS YEAR. I don't know that anyone will die from global warming ... 50 years from now, or ever. And neither do you.
        I also KNOW that resources used to fight GW can not be used to fight cancer. True by definition. So, delaying a cure for cancer may cost 10's of millions of lives.
        This is just one example.

        No facts at all, just a priori assertions about the economic incompetence of government

        Again, there is no way to lay out a case for this in less than a few hundred pages, which is why I gave you a book for reference. If you can't/won't read it that's not my problem.

        •  How about just telling Exxon to spend those (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          buckhorn okie, JohnnyRook, Munchkn

          millions or billions they spend to promote the "global warming myth" to spend that money on saving the environment. No government involved. Solution at least partially solved.
          We do know that polar bears are drowning, sea levels are rising, and the polar ice cap is melting, so people will be dying at some point soon. In the near future more people may die from global warming than cancer.

          •  How about... (0+ / 0-)

            How about telling Exxon to spend those millions or billions they spend to promote the "global warming myth" to spend that money on saving the environment. No government involved.

            Who is going to do the "telling"?

            In the near future more people may die from global warming than cancer.

            This brings me to another interesting point. Our ability to deal with nature is a function of technology. Why is it that Africa still experiences famine, even though it has more natural resources than America, which has eliminated it? Short answer is "technology". Our ability to deal with problems that may be associated with GW will certainly increase over time. It may very well be that in  few decades time, the weather itself will be under our control. Not guaranteed, of course. But the problems predicted by scientists are not guaranteed to occur either. Either way, our ability to solve the problem will improve over time, which means that the cost of solving the problem will fall over time.
            BUT, again, cancer deaths are all but guaranteed to continue apace. So a very strong case can be made for tending to these immediate problems, and these problems only. Triage. It would be nice if we had infinite resources and could tend to all problems, present and future, potential and actual, but we don't. And I don't trust government to do a good job at triage.

        •  Fred, people have already died from Climaticide (7+ / 0-)

          this year. They've died in hurricanes, tornadoes, droughts and from starvation. Although it is not possible to link any single such event directly to global warming, there has been a statistically significant increase in intense storms. And, we know why. The increase in sea-surface temperature, for example, provides more energy to hurricanes making them much more destructive. As to drought, it's occurring right where the models predicted it would: Australia, the Mediterranean, Southern Africa, etc.

          As to cancer, I have cancer.  I have spent the last 18 months battling first, lymphoma and now the leukemia that my lymphoma treatment gave me.  I am currently 46 days out from my 2nd stem-cell transplant.  

          The cancer argument is such a straw man. First, dealing with one problem (cancer) doesn't mean turning a blind eye to another (Climaticide) or do you propose that we spend all our resources on cancer research? Secondly, cancer treatment is only part of the solution, and not the biggest part.  I have an environmental cancer, the result of toxic substances in the environment. Toxic substances released by corporations whom the government has failed to sufficiently regulate (I know von Mises, doesn't think that's necessary, but  he's wrong).

          I write a diary about the ideology of global warming denialists and the only source you refer me to is a book of economic theory??

          No, I am not a climate scientist, but I have put in a lot of time studying the subject and I've found that most of the science is accessible to any educated layman who is willing to put in the time to read it. Most of the mathematics of climate models is beyond me, but denialists almost never attempt to challenge global warming at that level. I can follow the arguments quite well and the denialists are intellectually dishonest, period.

          By the way, I own the von Mises book you're referring to.  I read Ayn Rand when I was 14 years old. I also read Hayak, Friedman, Bastiat, von Mises, Rothbard etc. I was a libertarian for two decades before I got too tired of the contorted reasoning and denial of real world problems that being a libertarian/conservative requires.

          My suggestion is that you put von Mises aside for a while and go do some reading at Real Climate, Cimate Progress and Spencer Weart's great site The Discovery of Global Warming. You might also check out Climate Ark for daily news on the details of how Climaticide is changing the world.

          "My True Religion Is Kindness" -- The Dalai Lama/---/Do you know why 350ppm is important?

          by JohnnyRook on Mon May 12, 2008 at 02:46:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  subject line (0+ / 0-)

            First, dealing with one problem (cancer) doesn't mean turning a blind eye to another (Climaticide)

            Any resource directed to one project can not be simultaneously directed toward another project. Of course this means that we "could" direct 50% to "climaticide" and 50% to cancer. Or maybe 50% to cancer 25% to road safety, and 25% to climaticide. Or maybe 20% to climaticide, 10% to education, 60% to cancer, and 10% to road safety. As long as you realize that all of these formulations add up to 100%, and MUST add up to 100%, then you MUST realize that some resources devoted to x can not be devoted to y. No experimentation is needed to confirm this. It is a question of allocating resources plain and simple.

            I write a diary about the ideology of global warming denialists and the only source you refer me to is a book of economic theory??

            Yes, and I just explained why. I added more detail in my response to jimreyn.

            ... or do you propose that we spend all our resources on cancer research?

            I don't propose that "we" spend "our" resources on anything. I am not a collectivist or socialist, so I don't agree with forcing people to make purchases of anything against their will, even if you could make a utilitarian case for this type of coercion (and you can't). I propose allowing people to spend their money on whatever they consider to be most urgent. Maybe it's just putting food on the table.

            By the way, I own the von Mises book you're referring to.  I read Ayn Rand when I was 14 years old. I also read Hayak, Friedman, Bastiat, von Mises, Rothbard etc. I was a libertarian for two decades before I got too tired of the contorted reasoning and denial of real world problems that being a libertarian/conservative requires.

            Friedman and Rand are worlds apart from Rothbard. If you group them all together, it's no wonder you're confused. I actually don't think Mises is the best, but it's a good starting point. I recommend you spend some time debating on the mises.org blog and get out of the high-five zone that is dailykos. You need to dispel your notions of "only government is big enough to do x", or "it's okay to employ violence against innocent people under certain conditions" (which is the ultimate tool of govt.), etc.
            Also, you need to have a higher standard of "proof" in general.

      •  PS... (0+ / 0-)

        The fact that you cut out my examples, both of cancer and road deaths, AND removed my example of aether as an illustration of the fact that scientific consensus does not equal truth, shows who the real ideologue is (... it's you. I know that I have to spell out everything here.)

        •  This is my last response to you, Fred. (8+ / 0-)

          If you are uncertain as to why, please reread my diary.

          I did not cut out any of your examples. I highlighted part of what you said just as you did in your response to me.

          As to cancer, I have already responded in a previous comment.

          The aether controversy is a perfect example of how science works. Scientists do science and old hypotheses are discarded as new data is accumulated. The hypothesis was proved false in the Michelson-Morley experiment. That is, it was disproved by real scientists doing real science, not by big oil's hired guns who are paid more for their gift of blarney than their scientific credentials.

          As to climate science, it has already been revised substantially.  But what the evidence shows (not the consensus, the evidence) is that scientists previously underestimated the severity of the problem and how quickly it will be felt.

          Once again, I encourage you to consult the science  (you'll see how it's evolving) at the web sites that I mentioned in my earlier comment.

          "My True Religion Is Kindness" -- The Dalai Lama/---/Do you know why 350ppm is important?

          by JohnnyRook on Mon May 12, 2008 at 03:22:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I have read... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            SpamNunn

            hundreds of pages on realclimate.org. So I a well aware of the science. I also know that "global warming" has many aspects and that the scientists have varying degrees of confidence regarding various aspects of the science. The most speculative seems to be predictions about the way various species of plants and animals will react to the alleged certainty of warming. Of course this is the only thing that really matters. i.e. who cares if it gets warmer if certain crops grow better and more people can be fed?

            what the evidence shows (not the consensus, the evidence) is that scientists previously underestimated the severity of the problem and how quickly it will be felt.

            and you are free to believe that the science has fully matured. BUT, you are not free to force me to act on your speculation. That's bad.
            By the way, wasn't the last hurricane season notably tame?

            •  Sorry, I said I was done but can't resist. (4+ / 0-)

              Fred, are you the Fred Mann referred to in this piece in the Nation? Just curious.

              "My True Religion Is Kindness" -- The Dalai Lama/---/Do you know why 350ppm is important?

              by JohnnyRook on Mon May 12, 2008 at 03:54:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No (0+ / 0-)

                ... but somebody did call me to interview me when FM2 surfaced. I should have done the interview, in retrospect.

              •  He trolled my diary on the WPA (6+ / 0-)

                He is a troll.  He distorts and sets up straw men  Always hawking that "free" book on "socialism".  I'm not sure what  his ideology is.  Here is one of his comments:

                You should read "Socialism" by Ludwig von Mises
                It's free here   .
                As an example, consider that money spent on poetry (that almost nobody will ever read) is money that can't be spent on food or medicine, etc. This is true by definition. Well, I suppose you could read the poem at the starved person's funeral, so it's not a total loss.
                Thank god for FDR!! The depression ONLY lasted 10 years.
                Thank god for FDR!! He kept us safe from all of those nasty Japanese Americans by putting them in camps.
                Thank god for FDR!! He saved humanity by diverting huge amounts of money (that could have been spent on food, housing, etc) into the development of the atomic bomb.
                Hoorayyyy!!!

                An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the moment. It stands or falls on its own merits.

                by don mikulecky on Mon May 12, 2008 at 09:00:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Actually your ether example is wrong (6+ / 0-)

          Ether was never considered fact by Physicists. It was considered necessary as a medium to carry light wave, so it was postulated. Then if it existed, it had to have certain characteristics, so physicists tested for those characteristics and didn't find them.  

          So Ether was re-postulated without the characteristics that experiments showed it did not have. After a while it had been redefined into a substance that could not be measured and did not have any known impact on matter or energy.

          At that point physicists decided that maybe the fact that light was a wave did not mean that there had to be an analog to water to carry it, so they moved on to different ideas. But ether was never rejected. It simply was shown by experiments that if it existed it had no contact with the universe and so was not needed in the model of light. Thus it ceased to be used as a postulate in hypotheses. It was rejected. It was just shown by a long series of solid experiments that it wasn't needed to explain what was actually happening.  

          The postulated Global Warming is very different. It successfully explains a series of experimental results. It is moving very much in the opposite direction of the concept of ether. It is a useful explanatory concept.

          That idea that a given concept might be true to some given level of statistical certainty is clearly one that is foreign to you. Philosophers and religious people are always looking for something which is absolutely true, and there is no such thing. I recognize your confusion. When someone says something is true to a 95% level of confidence, you are always looking for the 5% to permit denial.

          For a long time people thought that confidence level represented our imperfect ability to measure things, and it does. But with quantum mechanics, we have learned that Einstein was wrong. God DOES play dice with the universe.

          Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

          by Rick B on Mon May 12, 2008 at 09:41:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks, great response. n/t (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Snarcalita

            "My True Religion Is Kindness" -- The Dalai Lama/---/Do you know why 350ppm is important?

            by JohnnyRook on Mon May 12, 2008 at 10:19:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  My error above (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            JohnnyRook

            Where I wrote "It was rejected" I meant  to write that ether was NOT rejected. It simply had been redefined to the point where it was no longer a useful concept when trying to develop a hypothesis in an experiment in physics.

            There is a big difference between "rejecting ether" and "finding the concept of ether no longer useful in developing hypotheses." It is only by blurring that distinction that what's-his-name above could try to apply it as a precedent for his effort at denial of Global Warming.  

            Ether was never real, was never thought to be real and never became an engineering concept useful in defining and accomplishing a job. It was a concept used in developing hypotheses in experiments in physics, and since it led to experiments that didn't succeed, it was abandoned. Anyone who seriously studied physics in the early 60's at a decent university was made familiar with that.

            Global Warming has been shown to be real and is on the way to being a useful engineering concept in achieving useful engineering results.   It this redirecting of the resources used in engineering projects that I suspect underlies a great deal of the denialism.

            Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

            by Rick B on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:04:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Irrelevant (0+ / 0-)

              As I said (and my post was erased ... mysteriously), Consensus DOES NOT equal truth. If it did, then we would not have had a Great Depression, since there was a consensus among economists that the Federal Reserve had eliminated the business cycle.
              More importantly, we have the question of resource allocation. We KNOW that millions of people die each year from cancer, and there is no end in sight. We don't know that any significant numbers will die from "climatocide" (poster's raw assertions aside), and even the most dire predictions don't come close to matching the kill-rate of cancer. And cancer is just ONE of the leading causes of death. So ... it's difficult to make a case for spending any money on this at all, assuming cancer deaths will continue apace.
              But if it makes you feel good ...

              •  Consensus is also not automatically wrong (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                JohnnyRook

                The reports of price from the stock market are also a form of consensus, and economists agree that the information from the stock market is highly valuable. In fact, a lot of free market theorists consider it gospel. Of course, they have to ignore bubbles to believe that.

                I don't know where you got the idea that economists in the late 20's and early 30's thought that the federal reserve had eliminated the business cycle. That's simply not true. Hoover's entire rationale for not taking action was that the business cycle would work itself out and resolve the problems in the economy and that government could not override the business cycle. FDR, of course, proved Hoover and the Wall Street Bankers wrong.

                FDR came in and realized that something had to be done, and there were a lot of economists who had proposals, some of which worked. The Republican - Hoover - Wall Street Banker consensus was shown to be wrong. Consensus is just an agreement that certain behaviors have - in the past - caused certain results, and probably will do so in the future. But that's not the fictional concept of "Truth."

                Sometimes consensus does gather around ideas that work, and sometimes conditions change that throw an older consensus into doubt. Then there has to be a movement towards something else that works.

                I suspect that we are not looking for the same thing, though. You are arguing for something called "Truth." That's a philosophical and religious concept that appears to have no connection to reality. It is normally asserted and is not generally subject to testing and research. I am looking for things that work relatively reliably. "Consensus" normally develops around things that are known to work, and lasts until those things quit working - and then a little longer, as some people are harder to convince that it is time to change the consensus.

                The old environmental consensus was that human activity was so minor that it could not affect the global climate. There is presently a strong and growing body of evidence that (1) the global climate is changing and that (2) human activity has a strong hand in causing or at least effecting those changes. That new body of evidence is in the process of destroying the old consensus. It does so by showing that the old consensus is no longer working. The new consensus has developed - based on good evidence and analysis - that (1) is actually the case, and (2) is strongly  implicated. There is little evidence to contradict (2) and what there is no longer convinces most serious students of the subject.

                Essentially, consensus isn't about the philosophical and religious concepts of absolute truth. Consensus is about a shared understanding of how individuals in groups will be expected to act, and what results of those behaviors are expected to achieve. That's why consensus changes. It has to change when reality changes.

                I won't go deeply into it, but economic reality is a man-made creation to begin with. Environmental reality is natural and requires a lot more human adaptation, since it cannot be changed by fiat the way economic reality can. Only effective behavior can change natural reality. That's one reason why your "Depression" reference is inappropriate.

                Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

                by Rick B on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:49:41 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Consensus... (0+ / 0-)

                  Hoover's entire rationale for not taking action was that the business cycle would work itself out and resolve the problems in the economy and that government could not override the business cycle. FDR, of course, proved Hoover and the Wall Street Bankers wrong.

                  This is completely wrong. Hoover was HIGHLY interventionist. Many of FDR's programs were reconstituted versions of the failed Hoover programs. This is an extremely common mistake in the Kos community. It is also a good illustration of why the Kos community is always wrong about the free-market.
                  With respect to the stock market, there are services (Bullish Consensus, I believe) which attempt to measure consensus. The idea is that when the consensus reaches 90% or so, you should do the opposite. Unfortunately, we can never really be sure we have an accurate measurement. These people are paid to be accurate and creative, and their services are at the mercy of the market, yet still there is doubt about the accuracy of the numbers.
                  And if you go to Bob Prechter's elliottwave.com site, you can dig up all the economist consensus vs. performance data that you could ever want.
                  The question of how much data one needs before taking action is an interesting one. Of course, the government has no incentive to form a correct plan of action -- it only has incentive to form a popular or profitable (to them) plan.
                  But again, this is all irrelevant. Even if the global warming hype is accurate, it still boils down to a question of allocation of resources. See below ....

              •  Cancer vs. Global Warming? (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                JohnnyRook

                How many resources needed for research into curing cancer are scheduled to be redirected into protecting human populations from the negative effects of Global Warming?

                I'd venture - none.

                Which makes your argument on that point totally irrelevant.

                Another point, one made by the SEC and which has to be presented to the purchaser of securities, ~Past experience is not necessarily a prediction of future performance.~ That there have not been many human deaths that can be clearly attributed in the past to Global Warming does not mean that valid predictions of accelerated change is not likely in the near future. All indications are that is the case.

                You'll notice that I use the words "probably" and "likely" a lot. If you want certainty, I suggest that you redirect your efforts into religion or mathematics and forget about politics,  engineering or science. Predicting the future is always a bet, one that can be lost. But some bets are a lot more likely than others, and the existence of global warming is shaping up to be one of those.

                Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

                by Rick B on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:04:17 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Mass Death... (0+ / 0-)

                  How many resources needed for research into curing cancer are scheduled to be redirected into protecting human populations from the negative effects of Global Warming?

                  I'd venture - none.

                  Which makes your argument on that point totally irrelevant.

                  Quite the opposite.
                  Let's say that the government's take for the year is one trillion. This 1T must be spread around the various projects that "our leaders" deem appropriate. As soon as an additional item is included in the budget, i.e. fighting GW, all other projects have less money than they otherwise would have had. I thought this was easy to understand. Would you still argue this is not true? I suppose it could be made simpler...
                  And again, cancer is just ONE of the leading causes of death. When you include other diseases, road deaths, etc. THERE IS NO WAY that GW could ever hold a candle to this. So there is no way to justify spending even one penny on GW, since it is only a potential threat, while the others I listed are all but guaranteed to continue AND are all but guaranteed to take many many many more lives.

                  •  You are, I assume, also against the space program (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    JohnnyRook

                    Gee. And I thought that Bush had figured out how to run the Iraq occupation outside the budget with no connection to the government's annual intake.

                    Apparently the rise of sea levels is unlikely to kill anyone. And the fact that the strength of hurricanes is directly related to the water temperature is not something that you believe in, and mere research won't shake your faith. It's obvious that you don't live in the Mississippi River delta region or along the Gulf Coast. If you did, you'd be a believer.

                    But maybe you agree with John Hagee that Katrina was caused by God to punish New Orleans for the scheduled Gay Pride parade. If faith is all you have going for you, that's as good an explanation as any. You can also have faith that consensus is always wrong.

                    Or maybe you're an old man and all this alleged Global Warming stuff wasn't common wisdom when you were a boy, so you refuse to accept it.

                    Or maybe you're a market contrarian who has made money out of opposing market consensus, and make the mistake that there is science behind the man-made social fictions that underlie every large market and all financial instruments.

                    All that is mathematical is not science, finance and economics being two great examples. Those are two disciplines that purport to measure a man-made creation that has little, if any, connection to researchable physical realities.

                    There's a reason why most of those scientists who argued against global warming have accepted it. There is strong physical evidence now to back it up, much as there is physical evidence to support evolution. The trend in weather science is much like the trend among steady-state physics theorists in the late 50's and early 60's. Only the aged who had quit doing real research on the subject stayed with the steady-state theory by the early 60's. They were the trailing edge of physics then.

                    Your opposition to the existence of Global Warming puts you in the trailing edge of weather theory, not the leading edge. Global warming explains research results in effective ways that no other theory does.

                    As for deaths, the population of Bangladesh is estimated this year to be 153,546,901. That's half the population of the U.S. The terrain is mostly flat alluvial plain. Either increased strength in cyclones (see Burma/Myanmar next door) or a rise in the sea level is going to kill a lot of people in a very short time. The U.S. is putting out the largest amount of greenhouse gases at present. Those deaths will be on us.

                    Besides that, the Mississippi delta region is similar to that of Bangladesh. So is Florida. I grew up in Southeast Texas, where the port city of Beaumont (Rice, oil, oil refining and cattle) is 40 feet above sea level. I threw newspapers in Hurricane Carla, and Rita - traveling the same route - was worse. What's your explanation for that? "I don't know, but it's sure not global warming. Act of God?" just doesn't cut it. That's merely self-enforced ignorance.

                    But I guess that America is too poor a nation and has too few research institutions to be able to research both global warming and cancer at the same time. The federal budget is too small, so only the most immediate top priority can be dealt with. And the budget can't be expanded by borrowing.

                    And if you believe that, you probably sell tobacco for a living. Smoking doesn't cause cancer. The CEOs (you too?) swore to the Congress it doesn't. They are deniers, too.

                    Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

                    by Rick B on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:27:34 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You missed my point entirely ... again (0+ / 0-)

                      Your opposition to the existence of Global Warming puts you in the trailing edge of weather theory, not the leading edge.

                      As I said in my first post... "Personally, I can neither confirm nor deny the accuracy of the science, since I am not a climatologist (and neither are you ... probably)." So how do you manage to still misinterpret my position?
                      Anyway, the upshot is, I can concede the science and still oppose governmental response. Again,

                      cancer is just ONE of the leading causes of death. When you include other diseases, road deaths, etc. THERE IS NO WAY that GW could ever hold a candle to this. So there is no way to justify spending even one penny on GW, since it is only a potential threat, while the others I listed are all but guaranteed to continue AND are all but guaranteed to take many many many more lives.

                      You believe in a command and control economy. This is completely debunked in "Socialism" by Mises. Read up on the "calculation debate". It's settled.
                      You have faith in the omniscience and benevolence of government. You have faith (inadvertently) in government's ability to tap into some sort of magical stream of wealth. You and the rest of dkos don't realize that government is the biggest special interest group on the planet. You are in a cult, and I hope you find your way out.

                      •  Actually it is you who are wrong. (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        JohnnyRook

                        I don't believe in any command and control economy. I believe, however, that there are problems that men have to organize to deal with, and there has to be some organizing agent as large as the problem.

                        While toothpaste can be sold by private organizations who are controlled only by mutual competition, the flood control and water resources of a river have to have a single overall controlling authority. That doesn't mean total command authority. It means that decisions that effect the entire river have to be structured at the top (with broad public input) while local decisions need to be controlled at the local level.

                        The same is true for a railroad. central authority is more effective and efficient. This also leads to mergers, of course. You might end up with a single monopoly (which charges monopoly prices instead of competitive prices) or you end up with a nationalized system, or you end up with a system of regional railroads which interact with each other and operate under some government regulation to protect customer in monopoly areas.

                        Mises has some interesting ideas, but his hatred of government shows through his writing. He can't be trusted on the economics of large organization.

                        Global Warming is the ultimate world-wide problem that requires an overall world-wide authority. What that will look like and what powers it will have is unclear until a lot more research has been done. Pieces of that problem can be dealt with by the free market, but other pieces need rapid action that a lot of people will object to, so government action will be required.

                        As in space exploration, the beginning will have to be done by government because there are no clear markets that private business can exploit. There are also elements of potential markets that private business can exploit locally while disrupting the overall system. Logging in Brazil is one such area; a lot of the economic development in China is another.

                        Von Mises is a very poor guide to such a situation. He fails to deal with the problems caused by externalizing costs and internalizing profits, something private business is very good at. Try living downstream of any uncontrolled pulp mill. There are no fish in the river.

                        You might recognize something resembling a federal system there where decisions that only effect local areas are not interfered with from above. You will also see a lot of non-government businesses that work when controlled by competition and when they are not permitted to externalize costs. Your fundamentalist free market ideology is simply inadequate for dealing with large social and economic problem, as the current credit crisis caused by deregulation and political control of the money supply by the fed clearly demonstrates.

                        Your writing leads me to suspect that you are part of the Ron Paul cult. And you hope I will get out of the cult I am in?

                        Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

                        by Rick B on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:33:31 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Scary... (0+ / 0-)

                          Global Warming is the ultimate world-wide problem that requires an overall world-wide authority.

                          This is one of the scariest things you've written so far. Maybe that or the idea that the federal government is too small. Good luck controlling those beasts with your occasional vote. I wonder what will happen when the "world-wide authority" ultimately and inevitably falls into the hands of a Bush or even Hitler type?
                          As for all of the other stuff, it is a series of economic fallacies.

                          as the current credit crisis caused by deregulation and political control of the money supply by the fed clearly demonstrates.

                          This crisis is almost entirely a result of government intervention!!! From the artificially lowered interest rates, to the pumping of the money supply, to the nationalized ratings services which fooled people into believing securitized loans were safe, to the guaranteed bank bailouts, to the full-bore promotion by the  govt. of the idea that everyone should own a home, and much much more ... entirely a result of government. There is not even a semblance of a free market here. There was no "deregulation". There are literally tens of thousands of regulations on banking and finance. And by the way "political control of the money supply" is the same thing as governmental control -- there is no non-political government, with the possible exception of total dictatorship.
                          I can't really justify spending my time addressing all of this. I can only encourage you to maybe read one of Rothbard's free online books. Or maybe you'd prefer the calm and cool French Canadian tone of podcaster Stefan Molyneaux (probably spelled wrong) at freedomainradio.com .
                          Good luck.

                          •  It's safe, then, to assume you oppose WHO (0+ / 0-)

                            The UN World Health Organization is a world-wide authority, one which has come very close to wiping out smallpox and reduced the incidence of polio to a few very remote locations. Global warming is clearly one such world wide problem.

                            I guess the idea that some problems are world wide and cannot be dealt with piecemeal simply frightens you to death. Your fear of authority explains your irrational positions.

                            But you no doubt approve of multinational corporations that operate unregulated entirely for their own benefit. Their internal organization is exactly the kind of unrestrained authoritarian dictatorship you fear from a world-wide authority that works to alleviate the problems of global warming and perhaps reverse some of its causes.

                            The economic problems we have today are clearly caused by a failure of the government to restrain overly risky lending and the refusal to regulate the financial industry. The problems cause by the libertarian economist and Senator Phil Gram and his fellow deregulationists set up the economic disaster that the Rand-besotted libertarian Greenspan accentuated by his incompetent and political handling of the money supply and interest rates.

                            The trouble is, government cannot be removed from the economy. There is no stable currency that is not maintained by a central bank, in spite of the occasional failures of central banks when taken over by libertarians. There is no modern economy that operates outside a strongly enforced commercial code (in the U.S. it is principally the Uniform Commercial Code with federal enhancements for industries that operate across state lines - as I said earlier, there has to be an overall authority large enough to deal with the overall problems) joined with the government enforcement of private contracts. Government is a large part of the economy and cannot be excluded from it without disastrous consequences.

                            There is no modern history of banks and financial institutions of a large economy successfully operating without strong regulation. The Depression of the 30's was largely caused by an economic structure dominated by unregulated banking. As the banks failed, there followed a contraction of the money supply. This was caused by over one-third of the banks in America collapsing. When the banks collapsed they took both the loans they had made and the money supply they had created with them. The study of this was what made Milton Friedman famous. (That this set of events was also a reaction to the international financial effects of WW I and the Treaty of Versailles is irrelevant here. We are only discussing the economic structure surrounding large banks.)

                            Bear Stearns was an example of one such large unregulated bank, and had the fed not stepped in and rescued it, its failure would have brought on a world wide credit crisis, perhaps leading to another Depression similar to that in the 30's. But banks don't create wealth. They just identify the creators of wealth and sometimes encourage them in order to exploit them. If left uncontrolled and unregulated, large banks are more dangerous than they are beneficial.

                            Your statement that the recent economic problems have been "... entirely a result of government." fails to address that the real problem has been the conservative and libertarian ideologies which crippled the ability of government to do its job properly.

                            Rather than being "... entirely a result of government." the problems are entirely the result of the Reagan Revolution, the conservative ideology with it's strong libertarian free market bent and the libertarian deregulation of the market that began with deregulation of trucking and airlines under Jimmy Carter. [Note how well those two industries have faired in recent years. Not very.]

                            Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

                            by Rick B on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:26:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  No deregulation (0+ / 0-)

                              Again, there was never any "deregulation".
                              I'd bet that if someone was shot 10 times and the doctor removed a bullet, you'd say he died of "debulletization". No, the bullets killed him.
                              I don't know where you get your "deregulation" propaganda, or why you buy it, but as long as there is a federal reserve, there is no free-market in banking. And of course, there are, and always have been thousands of regulations on the banking industry, aside from the federal reserve. The federal registry is available online. You are exhibiting pure denialism.
                              Oh, that's right, you're the same guy who said that Hoover didn't "take action". HA HA. Too rich. I posted the fully documented and footnoted "Hoover's Attack on Laissez Faire" above, but I suppose you'll just continue on with your fantasies.

                              •  You're just blind (0+ / 0-)

                                An example of the deregulation was Phil Gramm's bill that removed the Glass-Stegal Act.

                                Deregulation of trucking and the airlines occurred in the late 70's, and look how well they are doing now.

                                Deregulation of the mortgage industry and the S&L's created the S&L crisis.

                                Deregulation of utility rates has led to excessive consolidation and much higher rates in all deregulated markets. The few utilities that remained in government hands provide utilities at much lower rates.

                                FCC deregulation has allowed the clearly excessive consolidation of radio and TV stations, eliminating most local broadcasting. The fairness doctrine was eliminated in a fit of deregulation.  

                                This is just a few examples. Are you a fool, a liar, or both? But I don't have the time to correct all your idiocies and fantasies.

                                Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

                                by Rick B on Mon May 19, 2008 at 03:27:12 AM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

                                •  Deregulation (0+ / 0-)

                                  We may be working with different definitions of "deregulation". Deregulation can mean the removal of all regulation, or the removal of some. But what you are implying is that the problems listed were caused by a lack of regulation, when in fact there are thousands remaining!!! Not debatable.
                                  And the problems you listed can be tied to the remaining thousands of regulations. I had a similar argument here where I showed (with links) how the California energy crisis was obviously a consequence of the remaining regulations, even though it had been "deregulated".

    •  Memory (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      JohnnyRook

      Your comment reminded me of an article I read about a group of big shots who got together to brainstorm how best to spend a realistic annual budget to improve the world. They ranked things like water treatment and malaria eradication far above global warming mitigation.

      A little googling brought this up, which must be what I recalled.

  •  I've been there . . . (5+ / 0-)

    I have a hardcore republican uncle (by marriage) whose tactic is to discredit my sources by calling them communist university types, or something of that nature.  However, I don't think we're losing the war of public opinion, because even when I leave my little enclave of liberals here in Chicago to visit my family in Texas, I still know lots of people who are incredibly environmentally aware, but still identify as republican.  Further proof: my girlfriend operates a green pet-supply company (The Leash We Can Do!) that carries compostable and biodegradable poop bags (as well as kitchen and gardening bags), and a fair percentage of her sales come from small towns in red states.  More and more people are coming around, and not just in big cities or in blue states.