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Describing Israel as being solely responsible for the carnage in Gaza is only going to prolong Palestinian agony.

Whether you agree with the basic Hamas charter that each Israeli Jew must be killed and their bodies swept into the sea, or if you're simply appalled by innocents killed in Gaza, you really need to take a long look at two truths that will remain unchanged for a long time to come.

  1.  Israel isn't going anywhere.
  1.  Israel will stop rockets and suicide bombers from killing its citizens.

No matter how you feel about zionism and terrorism and who got to the land first, these two truths are not going to change.  Ever.  

If you come back and read this in ten years; they will still be truths.

Now, from your comfortable chair in your comfortable home, typing away on your comfortable computer, you can certainly hate Israel for what it does to stop those rockets and suicide bombers.  That is well within your rights and that is what these blogs are devoted to.  Expression, in all its forms.

However, if what you really want is to stop the carnage, you need to stop ignoring these truths.  By ignoring the rockets, the suicide bombers used by a democratically elected government in Gaza, you only contribute to the madness continuing.  

By ignoring the idea that no matter how many rockets are fired, Israel will be there the next day, you help Hamas believe that their answer (rockets and suicide bombers) will lead to a just solution at some point in time.

It won't.  It can't.  See the two points above.  Work with them (whether you like them or not) as a beginning.  Then write something that actually provides a workable solution to what is going on between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

Somebody might even listen to you.

Originally posted to codyjarett on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 06:35 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Your brave (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    leftynyc, MoshebenAvraham

    I merely commented yesterday that regardless of who you side with, you have to look at both for a solution and you have to look at both for blame.

    Be prepared to get bombarded.

    The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

    by ctexrep on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 06:38:07 AM PST

    •  Assigning blame (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Balam

      as though that excuses anything is counter-productive to any solution.

      Avoiding Theocracy at Home and Neo Cons Abroad

      by UniC on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 06:58:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  True (0+ / 0-)

        call it what you will - but fault (blame) must be identified - you need to determine what led to the actions - this isn't excusing anything, it's trying to establish what goes into conflict and try to come up with preventative measures.  In most conflict, there are contributing factors by all parties involved

        The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

        by ctexrep on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 07:02:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  But this diarist seems to think that Israel (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          UniC, Balam

          is blameless.

          •  blame is for school kids (0+ / 0-)

            this is real life. The poster is correct - israel ain't going anywhere, and they're not going to sit idly by while Hamas shoots toy rockets at them. Unfortunately - rightly or wrongly, Hamas will have to crawl hat in hand to get anywhere with the Jews - bluster and violence will fail as it gives the jews the ammo they need to crush the resistence.

            •  blame is for school kids (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              GN1927, corvo, Demena, Aunt Martha

              I am really surprised that the Bushies didn't think of that one. You should run the next RNC campaign.

              •  Hey, maybe he might consider (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Demena, Aunt Martha

                telling that to the Israeli leadership, which seems to have no trouble assigning blame . . .

                •  Well, from your comment here (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  corvo

                  you would certainly fit right in.

                  •  Of course aunti (0+ / 0-)

                    because if one doesn't tow the "progressive line" - i.e., the jews should just let the Arabs push them into the sea, than I MUST be a mean right winger. Sorry, it doesn't work for me. As far as I'm concerned, the Arabs have done everything in their power to lead up to this day - giving a very aggresive Israel every opportunity it needed to attack and kill. As another poster posted (and I paraphrase): On DailyKos:

                    two rich white men (or women) who can't get the US government to recognize their marriage are the victims of a horrific crime against humanity and civil rights. jews living in israel, OTOH, are war criminals, Nazis and apartheid thugs because they won't sit still as the Arabs shoot rockets - lethal though inneffective, into their land...the same Arabs, BTW, that have strapped on bombs and blown up commuter busses and pizza joints. The same Arabs, BTW, that slaughtered israeli atheltes in Munich and hijacked the achille laurel - the same Arabs, BTW, that turned Lebanon into a horroshow in the early 80s...the same Arabs that said "fuck you" to the UN in 1948 and launched a full scale war against Israel.

                    I know israel has often failed - but the other side?
                    pig shit as far as I'm concerned...

                    •  You forgot the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. n/t (0+ / 0-)
                    •  this is so bizarre (4+ / 0-)

                      the arab states of egypt and jordan are not enemies of israel.  they often cooperate with israel.  saudi arabia proposed a deal in 2002.

                      israel has steadily grown in size and power since its creation and palestine has steadily shrunk in size.  israel is still practicing colonialism and ethnic cleansing (settlements).  several polls shows most israeli jews support "transfer" i.e. ethnic cleansing.

                      yet you somehow think the arabs are still trying to eliminate israel.

                      it seems to me it would be more accurate to say israel is trying to eliminate palestine.

                      •  Israel was founded with that intention. (0+ / 0-)

                        “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

                        David Ben-Gurion.

                        Best Wishes, Demena Economic Left/Right: -8.38
 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

                        by Demena on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 09:16:08 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Do you think I could (0+ / 0-)

                          find Arab quotes that are equally as nasty? Do you?

                          •  yes, of course. (0+ / 0-)

                            but they are in response.  All of them.  The situation can be legitimately be said to be a result of Israeli ideal, plans and actions.  Solely so.

                            Best Wishes, Demena Economic Left/Right: -8.38
 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

                            by Demena on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 10:04:02 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  not solely so. (0+ / 0-)

                            it takes 2 to tango.

                          •  So (0+ / 0-)

                            Palestine should just die not dance?

                            It may take to to tango but it only takes one to start a fight.

                            Best Wishes, Demena Economic Left/Right: -8.38
 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

                            by Demena on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 10:18:02 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And WHO started the fight? (0+ / 0-)

                            "Palestine should just die not dance?"

                            The palestinians have made their choices. They knew what hamas represented.

                            Now they have to live with their choices...

                            so they dance AND they die...

                          •  You're a brave armchair warrior. (0+ / 0-)

                            By your logic, it would make sense for Iraqis to attack the US, since the Americans made their choices too.

                            I realize of course that Israel is always innocent, but sheesh, you're rather absurd here.

                          •  Who started the fight? (0+ / 0-)

                            For what value of start?

                            The palestinians have made their choices. They knew what hamas represented.

                            So tell me what choices did they have?

                            Now they have to live with their choices...

                            There 'choice' may have been their only possible choice for survival.

                            so they dance AND they die...

                            So what should they have done?  Mass suicide?  Copy the clowns at Masada?  Well that would certainly suit your purposes wouldn't it?

                            Tell me under what circumstances would Israel tolerate their survival?

                            Best Wishes, Demena Economic Left/Right: -8.38
 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

                            by Demena on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 05:35:15 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  If you're going to misquote in multiple places... (0+ / 0-)

                          ...then I'll debunk in multiple places.

                          When, exactly, did Ben-Gurion say or write such a thing?  Interestingly, this exact quote was attributed to Israel Koenig by this site, and was conclusively debunked here.  You are not only perpetuating a misquote, but misquoting the wrong person!

                          Stop spreading misinformation.

                          "The perfect is the enemy of the good." -- Voltaire

                          by ProfJonathan on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 10:59:29 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I think not. (0+ / 0-)

                            http://thinkexist.com/...

                            Now you "Stop spreading misinformation."

                            Best Wishes, Demena Economic Left/Right: -8.38
 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

                            by Demena on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 05:26:36 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Okay, again I'll respond to your poor source. (0+ / 0-)

                            Okay, I went to that site, and clicked on "About Us" to find out who put it up, and what their background was.  Want to know what it said?

                             

                            "Article not found."

                            Same with the Press Room.  And the Terms of Service.  This is your source for your information?  (By the way, it's very instructive to see what other quotes the "source" of your statements placed on that site.)

                            You're clearly not interested in facts, or legitimate sourcing, or anything that messes with your world view.  Good day.  {ProfJonathan}

                            "The perfect is the enemy of the good." -- Voltaire

                            by ProfJonathan on Sun Jan 18, 2009 at 08:14:46 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I doubt your sanity. (0+ / 0-)

                            You are worried about an 'incompleteness'?

                            I say to you;

                            You're clearly not interested in facts, or legitimate sourcing, or anything that messes with your world view.  Good day.  

                            Best Wishes, Demena Economic Left/Right: -8.38
 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

                            by Demena on Sun Jan 18, 2009 at 03:11:46 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Horse... ...feathers. (0+ / 0-)

                      “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

                      “We must expel the Arabs and take their places.”

                      “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

                      All quotes of David Ben-Gurion.

                      And you have the gall to criticize the charter of a group Israel created.

                      A little honesty please.

                      Best Wishes, Demena Economic Left/Right: -8.38
 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

                      by Demena on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 09:15:11 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  You're really full of something. (0+ / 0-)

                      The "progressive line" is that Israel (not Jews, since there are many non-Jewish Israelis) should let the Arabs push then into the sea?  Show me where, oh ridiculous one.  Please, I'd love to know.

            •  Did you wipe the blood from your mouth (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              corvo

              before you started typing?  You better; if it drips on your keyboard it could short circuit something.

            •  Actually I don't think so. (0+ / 0-)

              I suspect that the Palestinians will win.  Either that or you will have killed them all and that is not in Israeli interest.

              Best Wishes, Demena Economic Left/Right: -8.38
 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

              by Demena on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 09:10:42 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  Okay. (11+ / 0-)

    So how do we stop the embargo, which pre-dated the rocket attacks and which has left an estimated 40% of Gazan children malnourished? What do you expect Hamas or the Gazans to do about that? Just contentedly starve to death?

    Maybe to you Gazans are not quite as human as Israelis.

  •  This wont get the attention (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dnyedwab, zemblan, MoshebenAvraham

    it deserves.  It doesn't call Israel evil.  For what it's worth, I think it's a great diary.

  •  A must read . . . (16+ / 0-)

    There is a brief article over on The Atlantic by Ta-Nehshi Coates about his conversation with Aaron David Miller, who was an advisor to six SoSs, about the ramifications of the Gaza war.

    One of the many money quotes:

    The aftershocks of Israel's war against Hamas will be deep and lasting, Miller told me.  "This confrontation will have an enormous impact.  A whole new Palestinian narrative is being created - of sacrifice, of struggle, of resistance.  You can't kill 1,000 people and not have an enormous blowback."  Does this make even attempting to play a constructive role a hopeless endeavor? "The first thing Obama has to do is ask himself a question," he said, "and if he doesn't answer it correctly you might as well hang a 'close-for-season' sign on the door. The question is: do you, Mr. President, believe the Arab-Israeli conflict is a core national priority for your administration?  Not an interest, not a serious issue, but a core national priority."

    If the answer is yes, Miller went on to say, a lot will have to change, starting with the pattern of the US pretending to be an "honest broker" while actually serving as "Israel's lawyer."  "Effective brokers reach agreements that reflect a balance of interests," he said. [snip]

    In the choice between changing ones mind and proving there's no need to do so, most people get busy on the proof.

    by jsfox on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 06:44:51 AM PST

  •  oh, bull. (14+ / 0-)

    Describing Israel as being solely responsible for the carnage in Gaza is only going to prolong Palestinian agony.

    Israel will stop when it wants to, and there's nothing we, or Ban Ki-moon, or anyone else can say one way or another that will change that.

  •  Climate change will wipe them both out (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    UniC, corvo, Dexter

    if we don't reduce CO2 emissions drastically. Drought, heat and famine will likely turn the whole region in to an extension of the Sahara desert if we don't act.

    We need longer term thinking to solve our problems. Reactionary thinking will take us straight to Hell.

    "It's the planet, stupid."

    by FishOutofWater on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 06:49:03 AM PST

  •  are the palestianians going anywhere? (6+ / 0-)
  •  Where does it say that? (9+ / 0-)

    basic Hamas charter that each Israeli Jew must be killed and their bodies swept into the sea

    Quit spewing lies and then I will listen to you.

    Israel out of Palestine!

    by high5 on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 06:52:11 AM PST

  •  Why can't the Palestinians stop fretting... (13+ / 0-)

    ...and learn to love their (shrinking, increasingly flattened, unfed, unmedicated) open-air prisons?

    Just get with the program and accept these two "truths."

    "Where are the angels?" -- edscan, 9 Jan 2009

    by ArtSchmart on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 06:52:47 AM PST

  •  I just love this new approach: (11+ / 0-)

    If you don't support Israel's carnage in Gaza, then you're responsible for Israel's carnage in Gaza!

    As usual, everyone is responsible but . . . Israel.

  •  many things are true at once (4+ / 0-)

    I did a diary here a couple of years ago, suggesting that it was the last I?P diary we would ever need, saying the same thing... to the anti-Israel crowd, it is not going away. Same to the Israel is always right crowd, regarding Palestinians and their desire for a real state.

    Anybody not pushing for real 2-state solution, per Geneva Accord, Camp David/Taba, Saudi/Arab League plan, is simply hoping for endless war.

    That said the biggest problem now is that there is still an occupation in the West Bank, still increase in settlements, still endless talks that go nowhere (while settlements still grow).

    Until Israel gets serious, and gets out, there will be the fuel for Palestinian resistance, including terrorism by religious zealots such as Hamas. Need two state solution NOW.

    So that Israel can really be a full fledged democratci and Jewish state, within (more) secure and internationally recognized borders. And with an even stronger right to protect itself, including retaliatory attack against a then real self determining Palestinian state that will have their make a choice about peace or endless war.

    But that can only happen AFTER Israel gets out.

  •  How You Can Help Insure Continued Carnage In Gaza (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GN1927, corvo, dconrad, letsgetreal, haruki, mos1133

    From your comfortable chair in your comfortable home, typing away on your comfortable computer...

    Be the best armchair warrior you can be, and continue to state, one way or 16 others, that Israel can do whatever it wants, and that it is always the other side's fault.

  •  asdf (9+ / 0-)

    Israel will stop rockets and suicide bombers from killing its citizens.

    How exactly has Israel done anything to stop rockets and suicide bombers from killing its citizens?  It's been using the same failed tactics and gotten nowhere.  It's long past time to try something different.  

    You also ignore another important truth that is very relevant to the discussion:

    Palestinians aren't going anywhere.

    Now the real work begins!

    by Dexter on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 07:00:28 AM PST

    •  For several long years (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Demena, dconrad, condorcet, Dexter

      Israel did nothing to protect the folks of Sderot against rockets.  Now all of a sudden it's just so urgent.

      Timing is everything, folks, and we all know why this time was selected.

      •  I agree about the timing (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo, Demena

        But to say they did nothing prior ignores many of the horrors visited on Gaza over the past few years.  Launching air strikes against Hamas leaders on crowded streets, increasing the stranglehold on Gaza that has lead to a humanitarian disaster, sponsoring an attempted coup by Fatah...

        Now the real work begins!

        by Dexter on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 07:16:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Fair enough, although none of these horrors (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Demena, Dexter

          can seriously argued to be attempts to cease the rocket fire.  They were just cheap feel-good attacks.

          Only way to stop the rocket attacks, besides giving the Gazans a reason to actually like Israel, is to destroy Gaza utterly.  Looks like they're trying this latter method now.  

          I doubt it will work, and it's spectacularly brutal, but it at least addresses the rocket issue . . . for a change.

  •  Several references including a timeline (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    corvo, Demena, dconrad, Dexter

    From a debate between Lanny Davis and Neve Gordon
    I suggest reading it.  In my opinion Davis fail to answer the main points

    About between ten and twenty people, Israelis, have died from rockets in the eight years that rockets have been launched from the Gaza Strip into Israel. During the same amount of time, 4,000 Israelis have died from car accidents. And yet, we don’t see an outrage against the terrorism on the streets in Israel. But from these twenty people, we’re allowed to enter into the Gaza Strip and bomb them from the air into their cage and kill 275 children. And Lanny says that it’s not about disproportionality, but it is. Disproportionality is a term from international law. And by saying that he doesn’t agree with it, he’s defying international law.
    The death toll now stands at nearly 900 Palestinians, many of them civilian, including 275 children. Another 4,100 Palestinians have been injured. Thirteen Israelis have been killed, including three civilians hit by rocket fire and ten soldiers. Four of those soldiers died in friendly fire incidents.

    (this is a few days old)
    http://www.democracynow.org/...

    From a debate between former ambassador to Israel Martin Indyk and Norman Finkelstein.  Who broke the ceasefire?  Again for an ambassador Indyk either does not know or does not want to acknowledge the facts.  Read it for yourself.

    MARTIN INDYK: Good morning, Amy. Thanks very much for having me on the show. I feel a little bit sandbagged here. I was not told that I was going to be in some kind of debate with Norman Finkelstein. I’m not interested in doing that. I’m also not here as a spokesman for Israel. But I will try to answer your questions as best I can.
    I think that what happened here was that there was a ceasefire, an informal ceasefire, between Hamas and Israel that had lasted for about five months. Hamas decided to break that ceasefire with a prolonged series of rocket attacks on Israeli civilians in southern Israel. And the Israeli government responded with overwhelming force, designed, as they have said, to try to reestablish deterrence, to prevent Hamas from doing that again, and to try to get a ceasefire in place that would prevent Hamas from smuggling in offensive weapons into Gaza, the better to attack Israel.
    AMY GOODMAN: Norman Finkelstein, your assessment of why Israel attacked now?
    NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: Well, the record is fairly clear. You can find it on the Israeli website, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website. Mr. Indyk is correct that Hamas had adhered to the ceasefire from June 17th until November 4th. On November 4th, here Mr. Indyk, I think, goes awry. The record is clear: Israel broke the ceasefire by going into the Gaza and killing six or seven Palestinian militants. At that point—and now I’m quoting the official Israeli website—Hamas retaliated or, in retaliation for the Israeli attack, then launched the missiles.
    Now, as to the reason why, the record is fairly clear as well. According to Ha’aretz, Defense Minister Barak began plans for this invasion before the ceasefire even began. In fact, according to yesterday’s Ha’aretz, the plans for the invasion began in March. And the main reasons for the invasion, I think, are twofold. Number one, as Mr. Indyk I think correctly points out, to enhance what Israel calls its deterrence capacity, which in layman’s language basically means Israel’s capacity to terrorize the region into submission. After their defeat in July 2006 in Lebanon, they felt it important to transmit the message that Israel is still a fighting force, still capable of terrorizing those who dare defy its word.
    And the second main reason for the attack is because Hamas was signaling that it wanted a diplomatic settlement of the conflict along the June 1967 border. That is to say, Hamas was signaling they had joined the international consensus, they had joined most of the international community, overwhelmingly the international community, in seeking a diplomatic settlement. And at that point, Israel was faced with what Israelis call a Palestinian peace offensive. And in order to defeat the peace offensive, they sought to dismantle Hamas.

    http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/8/former_amb_martin_indyk_vs_author

    Avi Schlaim a historian

    I suggest reading the whole thing.
    It is not clear whether Israel is. If they wanted a cease-fire, they had one, enforced by Hamas with a minimum of violation between June 19 and November 4. A new study by a right-wing military think-tank in Israel points out that in that period Israel was hit by only 20 rockets and 18 mortar attacks (killing no one), the vast majority by groups opposed to Hamas, which was highly effective but not perfect in establishing control over them. In return, Israel was supposed to open the Gaza crossings and allow normal flow of goods; instead, the Israelis allowed roughly 20% of the traffic allowed in December 2005, itself a period of stringent control after the military withdrawal. And, on November 4, as the report points out, the ceasefire was severely undermined by an Israeli attack that killed 7 Hamas fighters. Since that time, the rocket fire increased and simultaneously the closures were made comprehensive; in all of November, about 20% of one day’s worth of trucks were allowed in, i.e., less than 1% of normal traffic, to a population where 80% depend for their basic sustenance on international aid.

    http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/14/leading_israeli_scholar_avi_shlaim_israel

    Some brilliant essays on the subject
    http://www.alternet.org/...
    Read a timeline of the crises
    http://www.alternet.org/...

  •  ah, the unmistakable stench (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stevej

    of hit-and-run diarist in the morning!

  •  Hamas rejects cease fire (0+ / 0-)

    so Hamas has announced it will not agree to a cease fire which includes international monitors in Gaza and which doesn't require Israel to withdraw and lift the blockade before Hamas stops firing rockets.  So the war will continue.

    Is there anyone here that's going to blame Hamas for not agreeing to the pending cease fire concept.  If not, what specifically do you object to in the cease fire concept.

    •  Neither side is interested in a cease-fire, (0+ / 0-)

      or haven't you noticed?

      •  nonresponsive and false (0+ / 0-)

        see, this is what happens.  Hamas rejects a specific ceasefire concept, and you blame Israel for not wanting a cease fire.  What about the specific questions I raised.

        •  Why, Israel rejected a cease-fire request (0+ / 0-)

          just this morning.  So whatever indeed are you talking about?

          •  talking to a wall (0+ / 0-)

            Yes, Israel shockingly refused to provide a unilateral cease fire.  Thx for sharing.

            Now what about responding to the issue concerning the mutual cease fire concept being developed by Egypt and the rest of the international community.  Or do you engage only in pro-Hamas propoganda.

            •  Here (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              corvo, Demena

              Both sides have rejected a bilateral ceasefire.

              Israel: because the Hamas proposal is only for a year (but renewable).

              Hamas: because Israel's proposal does not include the withdrawal of forces from Gaza.

              Honestly, which position do you think is more defensible?

              Now the real work begins!

              by Dexter on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 08:00:43 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  clarification (0+ / 0-)

                the linked report notes that there is a contradiction between unattributed earlier reports of Hamas conditions for a cease fire and the express, formal announcement by the Head of Hamas.  While that statement might be a negotiating tactic, why would you credit an earler unattributed report over a more recent formal announcement.

                also, why should there be a one year end to the cease fire.  What possible justifiable reason is there for such a limitation.  Why would Israel agree that Hamas could begin shooting rockets again after a year.

                •  Huh? (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  corvo, Demena

                  I totally ignored the uncredited earlier report.  What the hell are you talking about?  You really should read until the end of the article, that's where the meat is.

                  Second, a ceasefire should have a definite end.  It's meant to cool tensions so that actual negotiations can be made to, you know, end the conflict.  If there is no progress, why would you want to maintain the status quo?

                  Of course, from Israel's perspective, maintaining the status quo is a plus.  It can keep its checkpoints, keep control over Palestinian borders, maintain its subjugation of the Palestinian people, and look like good guys.  For the Palestinians, continuation of this situation is untenable.

                  Now the real work begins!

                  by Dexter on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 08:16:35 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Well (0+ / 0-)

                  Israel already repeatedly turned down a ten year cease fire (hudnah) so I don't put any credit to theat reason being supplied by Israel.  it is false.

                  Best Wishes, Demena Economic Left/Right: -8.38
 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

                  by Demena on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 09:40:16 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Let me know when Israel agrees to (0+ / 0-)

              any cease fire. :-)

              Oh, and I've been perfectly happy to admit that neither side wants a cease-fire.  Of course, considering when you first entered the DKos blogosphere and the spectrum of topics you choose to comment on, I can well imagine how you would interpret that as "pro-Hamas propaganda."

        •  How does saying neither side is interested (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo

          equal blame Israel?

        •  I answered. (0+ / 0-)

          A choice between staring to death and being bombed to death are the only options Israel is willing to grant.

          Maintaining the blockade is not a cease fire.  It is low genocide.

          Best Wishes, Demena Economic Left/Right: -8.38
 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

          by Demena on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 09:36:09 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  No. (0+ / 0-)

        Hamas wants a cease fire but not one that starves its people.   That is all they are saying.

        Best Wishes, Demena Economic Left/Right: -8.38
 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

        by Demena on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 09:34:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Not a war of equals (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GN1927, corvo

      You present the situation as though it is war of equals.  All Israel has to do is quit bombing and leave.  You did not read my post that indicated how many were killed by rockets.  From my post how many were killed by the rockets?

    •  Simple. (0+ / 0-)

      s

      o Hamas has announced it will not agree to a cease fire which includes international monitors in Gaza and which doesn't require Israel to withdraw and lift the blockade before Hamas stops firing rockets.  So the war will continue.

      Let us use more accurate language.

      Hamas has announced that it will agree to a cease fire which doesn't stop israel using a blockade to starve it people and permanently damage the prospects and development of its children bye forcing them to endure malnutrition and starvation in their developmental years.

      If not, what specifically do you object to in the cease fire concept.

      Because unless the blockade is lifted the Palestinians have a choice of dieing fast or dieing slow.

      Best Wishes, Demena Economic Left/Right: -8.38
 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

      by Demena on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 09:33:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  And. (0+ / 0-)

      Hamas' political chief rejected Israeli conditions for a Gaza cease-fire Friday and demanded an immediate opening of the besieged territory's borders, taking a tough line as he asked a summit of Arab countries to back him by cutting off any ties with Israel.

      And I wouldn't agree either.  Death by starvation and malnurition is an invidious choice.

      If Isreal will cease the blockade then they have their cease fire - a ten year one has been offered and declined.

      Best Wishes, Demena Economic Left/Right: -8.38
 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

      by Demena on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 09:50:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I didn't read your diary... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    corvo, Demena, dconrad

    ...becuase I'm not stupid and not really interested in the hyped up rhetoric that it is certain to contain.

    But I felt the need to point out that the word in your diary should not be "Insure" but "Ensure".

    There.  You may continue pointing fingers and casting blame at your liesure.

    You are entitled to express your opinion. But you are NOT entitled to agreement.

    by DawnG on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 07:42:49 AM PST

    •  to she who knows without reading: (0+ / 0-)

      I think "becuase" is spelled "because" and I do
      believe "liesure" is spelled "leisure".

      If you're that critical of something without even looking at it, I felt I needed to point that out.  

      Now, I'll get back to casting blame my leisure.

  •  Wow (0+ / 0-)

    It's a carnage?

    "Justice without Force is powerless; Force without Justice is tyrannical" Blaise Pascal

    by ARCADIA on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 07:54:05 AM PST

  •  an israeli defeat, not a cease fire (0+ / 0-)

    so Hamas unambiguously, officially rejects out of hand the cease fire concept being developed by the international community, and the only reaction here is that israel hasn't agreed to a unilateral cease fire, so both sides are equally to blame.  It seems to me you desire an Israeli defeat more than you do a fair and lasting cease fire.

  •  FAIL - The logic, you're doing it wrong (0+ / 0-)

    if what you really want is to stop the carnage, you need to stop ignoring these truths.  By ignoring the rockets, the suicide bombers used by a democratically elected government in Gaza, you only contribute to the madness continuing.

    I just checked, and Gaza is 9.640 km from where I am now. If I stop ignoring the attacks (I haven't actually been ignoring them, but I haven't been paying a lot of attention to them, either), how will anyone over there know that I've started paying attention?

    By ignoring the idea that no matter how many rockets are fired, Israel will be there the next day, you help Hamas believe that their answer (rockets and suicide bombers) will lead to a just solution at some point in time.

    Again, it's 9,640 km to Gaza. How does Hamas know what I'm thinking? I don't actually know anybody in Hamas. I haven't talked to them on the phone, or emailed them. How do I "help Hamas to believe" anything? Are they psychic?

    There was a protest here a week or two ago against the fighting, but I didn't bother to go (I would have had to miss work to attend it) because I couldn't see how it could possibly affect what was going on over there. Like the Israelis and Palestinians would read that a hundred people gathered in Michigan to protest the fighting, and think, "Oh, crap, people in Michigan are protesting, we'd better stop killing each other."

    The sad truth is, there is virtually nothing I can do to either cause the violence to stop, or to continue. I can only read stories about hundreds of dead children and adults, and wring my hands, and hope someone in a better-favored position than I can exercise some leverage to bring about change.

    (If you want to find out how far you are from Gaza, pull up Google Maps, find your location, and click the "Link" link. The ll= parameter gives your latitude and longitude, in that order. Then go to this web page: Distance between two points on Earth's surface and enter your longitude and latitude (warning: that's the opposite of the order they appeared in in the Google link!) and that of Gaza, which is roughly: Longitude 34.455, Latitude 31.521.)

    DailyKos: Come for the pooties, stay for the pie fight.

    by dconrad on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 09:47:37 AM PST

    •  Actually there is one way. (0+ / 0-)

      Provide Hamas with nuclear warheads and the means to deliver them.  the watch Israel evaporate form Gaza and stop torturing an entire population.

      The only safety in this world is to be friendly and helpful to your neighbors.

      I'm not condoning neukes but an negotiation from equality is the only way this can be solved without international intervention.

      Place UN nuclear weapons and delivery systems in the UN compounds queued to respond by attacks on those sam bases  Israel would never hit another one.

      Best Wishes, Demena Economic Left/Right: -8.38
 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

      by Demena on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 10:00:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm trying to figure out which part of my comment (0+ / 0-)

        you were responding to. Was it this?

        The sad truth is, there is virtually nothing I can do to either cause the violence to stop, or to continue.

        And you said:

        Actually there is one way. Provide Hamas with nuclear warheads and the means to deliver them.

        I looked around my house and even checked the junk that has collected at the back of my closets, but I didn't find any nuclear warheads. I seem to be fresh out of them.

        Even if I had some, I'm not sure how I would get them to Hamas. I don't have a boat or a plane, and I don't think you can send them UPS. Also, I don't think UPS delivers to the Gaza strip.

        I just want to clarify one point. I'm pretty sure you have a typo in your comment, and when you said:

        queued to respond by attacks on those sam bases

        you meant "same bases" and not "SAM bases". Also, "cued to respond to attacks" for "queued to respond by attacks".

        DailyKos: Come for the pooties, stay for the pie fight.

        by dconrad on Sat Jan 17, 2009 at 04:20:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Apologies (0+ / 0-)

    I've re-read my original diary and I realize that it was pointless and more than a bit provocative.  

    For that, I apologize.

    After these comments, I realize the problem is simple; nobody wants to budge from their positions, an effective metaphor for the conflict itself.

    If you're outraged by the subhuman conditions Gazans are forced to live under, then no words are going to leave you feeling differently regarding this or any Israeli reaction to rockets and suicide bombers.

    If you're outraged that a democratically elected government intentionally submerges its own people in chaos and death by firing rockets at civilians in a foreign state, then no words are going to leave you feeling differently regarding Palestinians' use of suicide bombers and rockets fired solely to terrorize and kill civilians.

    The positive thing these comments made me come to was that when things get this bad, it can work to force our new president to seek an internationally sanctioned solution.  

    Both sides will need to stand down.  Aid will flow to Gaza.  International monitors will be put in place to prevent rockets and suicide bombers from hurting innocent people.

    What Obama must do is get the people in the region to stop acting like the people in these blogs; in other words, stop playing the victim of an unquestionable wrong - and start thinking of how to accept the reality of the others' existence.  

    In so doing, our new President will force a solution much like Carter did with Israel and Egypt.  Lots of bad blood still remains, but the last time anybody looked, the truce is holding; not a shot fired in anger since it was signed.

    I know none of what Obama can do will make anybody outraged by the events in Gaza (one way or another) feel better or help right any wrongs.  Israelis will still be considered murderous thugs and Palestinians will still be regarded as bloodthirsty terrorists.

    But while bloggers will continue to slug it out, the parties themselves will be forced to figure out solutions to their problems in non-violent ways.

    May that day come sooner than later.  

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