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If Republicans were appearing on your news broadcasts and insisting that Barry Goldwater was the 38th president of the United States, or that the Chinese bombed Pearl Harbor, surely you would take a moment to halt the conversation and correct them. At least, I'd like to think so.

So why do you continue to allow Republican officials and conservative pundits to make statements such as "the Great Depression didn't end until World War II" or "the New Deal prolonged the depression" without comment? These statements are as incorrect as declaring Idaho a sovereign monarchy -- why are they constantly unchallenged?

Recovery from the Great Depression started in the first months of the Roosevelt administration and was directly attributable to the actions and programs that FDR undertook in his first 100 days. This is not an opinion. It's the conclusive verdict of history. It's a fact.

Was there poverty and misery throughout the 1930s? Of course there was, and no one would say otherwise. The United States was a much poorer country at that time than it is today. That we have enjoyed decades of growth, and that for most Americans the current crisis does not come close to having the devastating personal impact of the Depression era, is directly attributable to the programs that were instituted more than seventy years ago. In short we got it right in the 1930s, and we have benefited from those decisions ever since.  The American dream of home ownership, of a decent job, of a dignified retirement... that dream wasn't just aided by Franklin Roosevelt's actions, it is the direct invention of the programs which grew from the New Deal.

In a time when we're trying to make equally difficult economic decisions against a backdrop of complex financial considerations, it's incumbent on the news media to play a role in helping Americans obtain the best, most accurate information available. Without it, the odds that we will not make the right decisions this time are greatly increased.

Perhaps it's easier to allow Republicans to pass along a distorted version of history. Maybe it makes it easier to book guests. Certainly it's simpler to just let them have their say than to stop the day's sound bite for a history lesson. But being complicit in the twisting of American history isn't just lazy, it's dangerous. It has consequences that will affect the health, wealth and lives of your fellow Americans. It lessens the chance that our children and grandchildren will ever come to say "see how much better things are today than they were back in the first decade of the 21st century."

Please, the next time a guest appears on your show and makes a statement like "the Depression wouldn't even have been a depression without the New Deal," take two seconds to say No, that's not right.  History will thank you.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:23 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

      •  As long as Obama keeps treating (10+ / 0-)

        the media as irrelevant, they will keep looking irrelevant to the rest of the people and their opinions will not matter.

      •  Yes, as in "press flesh with the rich & powerful (8+ / 0-)

        at cocktail parties in Georgetown".

      •  Pull! n/t (0+ / 0-)

        Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

        by JeffW on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:52:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Beginning and End (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LABobsterofAnaheim, gph11

        So why do you continue to allow Republican officials and conservative pundits to make statements such as "the Great Depression didn't end until World War II" or "the New Deal prolonged the depression" without comment? These statements are as incorrect as declaring Idaho a sovereign monarchy -- why are they constantly unchallenged?

        Recovery from the Great Depression started in the first months of the Roosevelt administration and was directly attributable to the actions and programs that FDR undertook in his first 100 days. This is not an opinion. It's the conclusive verdict of history. It's a fact.

        You made a switch here.  Republicans state, ""the Great Depression didn't end until World War II" but then you argue against,"Recovery from the Great Depression started".

        This is not a good argument.  There is a big difference between "depression ended" and "recovery began".  Beginning of the recovery is not the same as depression ended.

        Many will say that Roosevelt's policies mitigated the impact of the depression and set the stage for recovery.  Many of the same people will also say a real difference in the countries standard of living did not occur until the end of WW2.  Of course after WW2, the US did not have competitive economic competitors.  So using the end of WW2 as a marker for the end of the depression based on significantly improved living standards is arguably correct.

        •  Agreed (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jagger, LABobsterofAnaheim

          So why do you continue to allow Republican officials and conservative pundits to make statements such as "the Great Depression didn't end until World War II" or "the New Deal prolonged the depression" without comment?

          Echoing Jagger, we let them say that first quote because it's true.  It's not an opinion, it's a fact.  Most historians would agree with the first quote.

          As for the second one, that's cool to disagree with, because most historians would disagree with this second quote.

          These aren't opinions...these are facts.

          Let's make sure we are intellectually honest.  We know they won't be.

          •  Ok but you gotta admit... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LABobsterofAnaheim, Matt Z, gph11

            ...they're really thinking, "What we need to get the economy going is WORLD WAR III!"

            Oh, wait, that's not a new GOP policy, is it?

          •  By what metric. (4+ / 0-)

            The graph of GDP is pretty telling:
             title=

            •  Can we get this graph on a T-shirt? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wonmug, Nailbanger, CoExistNow

              Just wear it into bars and stuff. I bet chicks would dig it...

              Eight long years, and what did we get? A couple bad wars and a mountain of debt.

              by jimbo92107 on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 09:58:11 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  agreed, the New Deal DID end the Depression... (5+ / 0-)

              seeing as how the terms "depression" and/or "recession" are based on which way the economy is headed, not by whether there is still widespread poverty. As pointed out in the main post, we were in such horrible shape before FDR was elected, years of robust growth would still leave a lot of people in poverty. (Especially given how bad our infrastructure was - huge numbers of people didn't even have indoor plumbing yet, much less electricity, decent roads, etc.)

              I think what the conservative types need to realize is, yes, our economy went gangbusters with the start of WWII. And why did it do that?

              FREAKIN' GOVERNMENT SPENDING... where the hell does everyone think it came from?!

              Guess, to conservatives, better to spend tax dollars on bombers and stuff than on infrastructure or, god forbid, helping people stay in their homes and eat on a regular basis...

              -8.25, -6.26 If Republicans are outlawed, only outlaws will be Republican. Oh wait... done. Next?

              by snookybeh on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 10:12:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Most historians would disagree (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                monkeybrainpolitics, Nailbanger

                "depression" and/or "recession" are based on which way the economy is headed, not by whether there is still widespread poverty.

                Not really.  By your logic the Depression ended the day FDR took office.

                More appropriately, we should look at several things:

                When the GDP came out of Depression (By 1937)
                When unemployment numbers came out of Depression (By 1942)
                When exports improved (By 1939)
                When wages improved significantly (By 1942)
                When the lives of Americans weren't in Depression anymore (which I believe to be the most important.  Don't tell millions of grandparents that the Depression was magically over in 1937.  You're liable to get kicked in the jimmy.) (Not before 1938)

                Anyway, we shouldn't just use GDP because it fits our argument.  Yes, the GDP was back from the 1929 high.  But the struggling American didn't care much about that.

                World War II started in 1939.  However, the military industrial complex was being built up more than a year earlier, thanks mostly to FDR's insight.

                So by the end of 1937, economically, World War II was in its earliest stages.

                This is why most historians will say that World War II ultimately ended the Great Depression.  

                However, going back to the original post, we should make sure that we hold the GOP's feet to the fire when they say that the New Deal made the Depression worse.  It simply didn't.

            •  We shouldn't just use GDP (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Nailbanger

              as our metric, because it fits our inaccurate argument that the New Deal solved the Great Depression more than World War 2. In fact, most Americans still felt that we were in the Great Depression in 1937, even after we had "bounced back"

              See my comment below.

              •  But we shouldnt drop into relativism either (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gph11

                GDP is in the definition of recession and depression, so it should be the paramount statistic.  Even unemployment was much better before WWII, even if people didn't feel that way. As someone said recently (Jon Stewart?) you could have drove the tanks and planes into the ocean and had the same effect on the economy.  

                •  You're right (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Nailbanger

                  The 1930s depression ended by 1937.  And relativism is a danger, of course.

                  However, I would argue that the "Great Depression" was different than the economic theory textbook "1930s depression."

                  For so many people, 1943 was the year when wages completely bounced back.

                  For so many people, 1942 was the year when employment completely bounced back.

                  For so many people, the Depression was still going on when Hitler invaded Poland in 1939.

                  Relativism aside, the official economic depression from 1929-1936 is by no means The Great Depression.

                  As for Jon Stewart, I recall that episode, and the comment made me chuckle, because he was right.  It doesn't matter what the military industrial complex was producing, as long as it was producing.  And when the MIC began doing that, we began to emerge from the Great Depression.

                  Bottom line, the New Deal was helpful, World War II was helpful, and the US spending in the right way got us out of the Great Depression.

                  •  It matters that you have not focused on the cause (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    monkeybrainpolitics, Nailbanger

                    It matters that you have not focused on the causes of the Depression. Causes Plural.  If you just measure it in terms of unemployment, re-employment, you miss the crux of the matter.  

                    Yes the Great Depression was a period of profound unemployment, failure of banking and finance systems, break-down in trade, markets, and much else, but all of this points to structural causes -- a profound misfit between the character and quality of the labor force and the requirements of a technologically modern, complex, and progressive economy.  

                    You can make this case against those who do not understand the Depression Era by pointing out that for Agriculture (production of food and fiber and basic processing)the Depression really began in 1922 with the collapse of commodity prices, which then continued to spiral down to the mid 30's.  As of the 1920 Census, about 45% of the US Population was engaged in Agriculture or the first level of processing -- this decreased during the 20's as industrial labor was drawn form the surplus Ag Labor Force, but then when Industrial Employment collapsed after 1929 -- many returned to rural America.  The structural problem was, vast parts of the American Labor Force were undereducated, unprepared to compete for and do the more technically sophisticated work in a modern economy, and this created a structural mis-match between economic possibilities and the capacity of the labor force.  

                    Some of FDR's greatest achievements are 1) the NYA, the National Youth Administration, a sort of work-study program that kept teens in High School during the 30's, contributing to the increase in HS graduation rates from 40% in 1930, to 50% in 1940... and 2) the Educational Benefits in the GI Bill of Rights, (1944) which increased the percentage of Adult Americans that had College or Advanced Technical training in the workforce from 5% in the 1930's, to about 40% in the early and mid 50's.  This is what changed the structure of the American Labor Force, and thus the economic possibilities.

                    Making this argument gets us away from the useless and mind numbing discussion regarding unemployment numbers during the 30's, (and how to count it) which while one indicator of the pain of the period hardly get us to an understanding of the cause of the Great Depression.  

                    It also means we are not led to questions regarding possible structural causes of this extreme Economic Downturn, or shall we say, the new Great Depression. That is the progressive argument we need to be making right now, because out of it comes the design of what will be more than a band-aid on the current problems.  

                    •  This is going to sound blunt, and I'm very sorry (0+ / 0-)

                      Everything you wrote is pretty much true.  Well reasoned.

                      However, I am left wondering (and, again, forgive me for sounding blunt) why you responded to me, rather than those above who seemingly advocated only using one measure to describe the Great Depression.

                      I'm actually with you.  To look at when the Great Depression ended (i.e. the original question) I feel that there are multiple things you MUST look at when looking at an economic crisis of this magnitude.

                      As such, I'm sorry if I inferred that you should ONLY look at what ended the Depression...but then again, that was the original question I was answering.

                      By the way, the NYA is one of my favorites because I think Mary M. Bethune was hoss.

                    •  Great post. But the GDP is an indicator, not a (0+ / 0-)

                      cause in itself, and it is one that shows a positive response to the New Deal.
                      It is a blunt instrument to be used on those that want to say that FDR lengthened the depression.  In that capacity, it should be the preeminent figure.

                      •  Yes, but GDP covers up structural problems (0+ / 0-)

                        During the 1920's the GDP increased pretty much year by year, but that covered over the Agricultural Depression which was already evident if you break out the sector independently, and recognize that it is going in the opposite direction from the general prosperity of the era.  This is what you want to see when making a structural argument or constructing a thesis around it.  

                        And since The Ag Depression of the 1920's was during the administrations of Harding, Coolidge and Hoover, extending well into FDR's administration, and between 40 and 45% of the US population were dependent on Agriculture as their principle source of commodities and income -- this becomes a profoundly difficult argument for even contemporary Republicans to easily respond to.  

                        I suspect the contemporary comparison would be the beginnings of mal-distribution of the income curve in the 1970's, the frozen wages, et. al.,  It has been recognized, but no serious proposals for action toward change have caught fire over the past 30 some years.  But this is just as structural as was the ignored Agricultural depression of the 20's.  But the GDP doesn't reflect it particularly well.  

      •  so are impress, repress, and express (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bluedoc

        which, respectively: - the traditional media fails to do - seems intent on doing to the truth, and - I have just done with my opinion.

        The trouble with verbs (as far as the "press" goes) is that they signify action. Which requires work.

        I'm bipartisan. I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass.

        by Turbonerd on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:33:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Oh, and let me add: awesome essay, and one that (25+ / 0-)

      needs to be mailed, shouted, broadcast and narrowcast to every member of the "liberal mainstream media" every day until they take their hands away from their ears because their arms are tired and they stop going "LA LA LA" long enough to inhale and they won't be able to block it out any more...

      And while we're at it, how about some monopoly-busting?!? When is the Congress going to pass some media laws?

    •  That just about nails it. (14+ / 0-)

      There used to be reporting, journalism, facts.  Now, it's all about ratings, controversy, sensationalism, entertainment.  

      They only call it class warfare when we fight back.

      by rb608 on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:29:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  One of two scenarios here (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bluedoc
      1. they don't have the balls to stand up to their guests' comments (hello CNBC, you hearing me?)
      1. they let them say it because they know it will make them look stupid.

      This is what you get for messing with us

      by MotherTrucker on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:04:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Depends on definitions (0+ / 0-)

      Technically speaking the recession (the NBER only defines recessions) of 1929 ended in March of 1932, before any of FDR's policies took effect and probably based more on confidence and the Banking Act than anything else.  However, many people like to look towards unemployment to define a true emergence from a recession and that in fact did not recover until WWII.  Economics isn't as clear cut as everyone likes to think.

      •  not entirely accurate (0+ / 0-)

        unemployment actually went down quite a bit from `33 on (FDR taking office, New Deal being implemented), but the rate was so high at the start (25% +) that it was still very high for the next several years until the war buildup started. Cutting unemployment by 10%, or even 5%, is huge and would be almost unheard of during/after a normal recession.

        And when unemployment plummeted with the onset of the war buildup, that was due to government spending - which conservatives don't seem to understand or else don't want to mention whenever they talk about how "the war ended the Depression."

        -8.25, -6.26 If Republicans are outlawed, only outlaws will be Republican. Oh wait... done. Next?

        by snookybeh on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:11:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Idaho a monarchy? (21+ / 0-)

    All hail King Spud VIII!

    (get it? He has multiple I's)

  •  PS:If you think you need to play stenographers (21+ / 0-)

    in order to maintain "access" then perhaps it's time to explore opportunities in another line of work.

    Dear GOP&Conservatives If all you have to offer are Cliches and Hyperbole then STFU. Thanks XOXOXO

    by JML9999 on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:26:58 AM PDT

  •  Is it just me, or (20+ / 0-)

    does anyone else have a hard time remembering any GOP member talking about Hoover when they talk about the Great Depression?  

    •  hoover was a Beta version of Shrub (7+ / 0-)

      They stopped talking about him a while ago.

      Dear GOP&Conservatives If all you have to offer are Cliches and Hyperbole then STFU. Thanks XOXOXO

      by JML9999 on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:28:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Right, But (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bluedoc, Blackacre

      it's not about that.. that is over.

      they are interested in where the MONEY goes now and in the future, i.e. maintaining the huge wealth inequity we have.

      "Where is the change? What has changed? Clarify this to us." Ali Khamene'i

      by Superpole on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:52:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes...for THEIR "children and grandchildren" (0+ / 0-)

        ...they don't give a hoot about the children or grandchildren living on the street and under bridges because of their policies.  All they can do is point fingers and blame President Obama or Bill Clinton.  

        They are laughable...both the pressitutes and the wingnuts...but is is really really sad what they have done to our Nation...and they are STILL trying to continue their assault on the rest of us.

        How do we let them know IT IS OVER!!!

        "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever." -- Clarence Darrow

        by Bluedoc on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:26:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  thanks for saying this, Devilstower (15+ / 0-)

    I myself often wonder why stark mis-statements of fact are almost never corrected by the "press".

    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
    President Barack Obama. At last.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:27:26 AM PDT

    •  Hourly plus. It is not humanly possible to (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TrueBlueMajority, Bluedoc

      correct the distortions the GOP disseminates. They are a vocal minority but are dedicated to spewing this stuff incessantly.

      It takes a lot less time and effort to spew distortions than dig up accurate refutations -- it's only thanks to deh google we can look up the facts in any kind of timely fashion.

      It's really only practical to refute the worst of the lies ... that's how MMfA handles this problem, in bite-sized pieces. I agree with Devilstower in theory but in practice so many of us have to do our work, instead of devoting ourselves to refuting the self-serving (to them) distortions of the right.

      •  They never so much as commented on the (4+ / 0-)

        destructive actions of Bush or Cheney...just seemed to accept it as the "normal" status quo.  And now they are trying to declare President Obama as a "failure"...What I see is an outdated group of minions who have lost their relevance.

        Perhaps our government funds should be invested in creating an alternative media that is duty bound to report only factual information with no slant.  "Just the facts, m'am"...wouldn't that be refreshing.  Let people form their own opinions.

        "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever." -- Clarence Darrow

        by Bluedoc on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:30:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Corrected?! They often are the ones misstating! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TrueBlueMajority

      I will never forget John King and Campbell Brown sitting around trying to figure out the last time a sitting President had majorities in both the Senate and the House. Here was the exchange:

      Campbell Brown: For those people who have been worried about the possibility of one party controlling Congress and the White House, the last president to do that, of course, was....?

      John King: Ah, that was Bill Clinton, and...

      Brown: Jimmy Carter! Jimmy Carter had... Bill Clinton had Democrats in the House and in the Senate?

      King: Very briefly.

      Brown: Very briefly. [Crinkles her nose] Didn't go so well.

      King: No it didn't.

      Of course, the last president to have one party controlling Congress and the White House was... the guy who was President at the time of this STUPID FUCKING EXCHANGE. FOR FIVE FUCKING YEARS.

      Unbelieveable. "No bias, No Bullshit, No Clue"

  •  Well, here's a suggestion (4+ / 0-)

    we could ask Ed Henry to stop "making news" and report the truth.  Or hows about some fact checking, etc?

    Experience required, ovaries desired.

    by bulldog on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:27:49 AM PDT

  •  Yeah, I heard the interview this morning (19+ / 0-)

    on NPRs Morning Edition with what's-his-ass Ryan, and I was seething while his claims regarding the New Deal and the Great Society.  Why didn't the interviewer ask the obvious question:  So, you think we'd be better off as a nation without Social Security or Medicare?  And how many of your constituents would agree with you on that?

    Spineless!

    -5.13,-5.64; EVERYTHING is an approximation! -Hans A. Bethe

    by gizmo59 on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:27:59 AM PDT

  •  What the general public doesn't know.. (13+ / 0-)

    ...they don't question.

    It sucks.  We need an all around revival of education in this country if we want to maintain our standard of living.

    President Barack Obama

    by jfarelli on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:28:06 AM PDT

    •  I think (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bluedoc, jfarelli, MaikeH

      what I learned in the 4th grade is about equivalent to what today's college sophomore is learning.

      " They are unanimous in their hate for me--and I welcome their hatred." - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      by djbender on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:32:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's not true (6+ / 0-)

        My 5th grader just learned all about the Great Depression and WWII.  He, of course, had to memorize dates and stuff....I put the personal spin on it, pointing out that grandma and grandpa would probably have no money if not for the Social Security payments they get every month.  He seemed to get it.  We'll see.

        •  When I hear history being rewritten (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Bluedoc, PsychoSavannah

          I think about 10th grade and the interview I did for Social Studies with my grandparents about the Depression.  I just ran across it the other day.  I got an A followed by about 10 plus signs; probably about the only A I got in high school, and I can't believe I had the foresight to hold on to it.  All I know is that I'm not so sure that my poor grandparents are resting in the kind of peace that they deserve, what with all the rolling over in their graves that I bet they do any more.

        •  depresion (0+ / 0-)

          awesome.  i taught fifth grade.  i presented the facts to my students and kept my personal opinions to myself. when my students journaled about it, they usually concluded that fdr's "alphabet soup" was a great thing.  the kids get it. thank god, the kids get it.

      •  My 8th grader is leaning all about the Depression (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bluedoc, djbender, jfarelli, awsdirector

        right now, and she has an insane/truly wonderful Social Studies teacher who tells them urban legends, etc.  Every once in awhile I have to print off a page from Snopes for him.

        My daughter asked me, is the economy getting better yet, because she wants to go buy new shoes.  My answer was no.  But, she's still going to get the new shoes because she can't stop growing! By the way, she earned more by babysitting last week than I did at my job.

        Anticipated expenses in the next few weeks:

        Sewer guy, because there's water (and solids) in the basement. Again. ($200)
        Tux rental for prom for 12th grader ($100)
        Tickets for prom for 12th grader (date buys her own ticket) ($100)
        Graduation dress/shoes for 8th grader ($60)
        Graduation fee for 8th grader, includes picnic ($60)
        High School enrollment fee for future 9th grader ($200)
        Dorm Housing deposit for future college freshman ($300)
        Graduating senior wants to take table of friends to lunch at Dixie Kitchen in lieu of party: ($200).

        Travel to Oregon for mother's 75th birthday reunion ($2,000 in plane tickets, car rental, one night's hotel stay, etc.)

        We have not yet got to July and the one week' (1 week) summer camp for the future 9th grader.

        Sigh.

        "You don't ever want a crisis to go to waste. It's an opportunity to do important things you would otherwise avoid." Rahm Emanuel

        by Im nonpartisan on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:54:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I feel that. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Bluedoc

          I just paid $1100 for my wife's car's suspension and new tires.

          President Barack Obama

          by jfarelli on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:10:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I didn't mention the meeting with the (0+ / 0-)

            orthodontist for my 14 year olds treatment plan.  He was suggesting a visit to the oral surgeon for wisdom teeth removal as well.  My spouse came home and crawled into bed and pulled the covers over his head!

            "You don't ever want a crisis to go to waste. It's an opportunity to do important things you would otherwise avoid." Rahm Emanuel

            by Im nonpartisan on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 01:22:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  There is no news (6+ / 0-)

    just entertainment. So don't expect anything to go challenged.  It's called an Idiocracy.  

    " They are unanimous in their hate for me--and I welcome their hatred." - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    by djbender on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:29:04 AM PDT

    •  Exactly - (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bluedoc, RustyCannon, Nailbanger

      it's called the Oligarchy controls the MSM and uses it as a propaganda tool.

      anyone here not getting this is not looking close enough at the problem.

      over FIFTY years ago, Hitler knew quite well the power of electronic media.

      "Where is the change? What has changed? Clarify this to us." Ali Khamene'i

      by Superpole on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:50:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I like that...accurate description of both MSM (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      djbender

      It's called an Idiocracy.

      as well as the past 8 years and the remaining wingnuts in Congress.

      Bad thing is...when things are fossilizing it takes a looooonnnnng time.

      "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever." -- Clarence Darrow

      by Bluedoc on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:36:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  That's about as likely as (0+ / 0-)

    Japanese Press Clubs dissolving and investigative journalism being discovered here.

  •  I sometimes think my head is (6+ / 0-)

    going to explode!!  When I hear Rethugs parroting talking points that are obvious lies, and they go unchallenged, I just want to reach into my TV and slap whoever is letting the lie go past!

    Anyone could see the road that they walked on was paved in gold, it's always summer, they'll never get cold, Never get hungry, never get old and grey.....

    by minerva1157 on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:30:07 AM PDT

    •  That's why I no longer watch television "News". (9+ / 0-)

      I spend too much time screaming, crying and begging these "journalists" to do their damned job.

      I want my Constitution back!

      by jaf49 on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:35:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Tucson local talk radio host Parisi: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bluedoc, minerva1157

      propagates talking points from those gooper e-mailings they all get, first thing every morning ... so his crew gets riled up before they even get their coffee. YOU.WOULDN'T.BELIEVE the terrible things Obama wants to do to us. Really, you wouldn't (because none of it is true). Jim Parisi has a couple of dozen frequent regular callers who not only believe the distortions, but expand upon them. These frequent-callers all sound like they only get off their damn phones to load their damn guns.

      This morning Jimbo cowanked John Zogby, you know, the famous (f)lying pollster? Together they snorted and chortled and declared Obama's honeymoon over. Is this bad news? is the honeymoon really over? or is rwradio just doing its usual thang?

      Maybe we should have an exposure site on the internet to display this silliness, less formal than MMfA, but enough to get these wingnuts the exposure they deserve. That's my only idea for how to address it, and I really don't know how to actually start such a site.

    •  Watch CSPAN...it was interesting yesterday (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      minerva1157

      to hear some of the talking points being challenged by the Dems...in a very civil and meaningful way.

      "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever." -- Clarence Darrow

      by Bluedoc on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:39:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  That would require them to DO THEIR JOB (8+ / 0-)

    As I've always said, the media aren't biased, they're just lazy.

    •  I don't even think they're lazy, I think they're (14+ / 0-)

      stupid.

      I'm absolutely serious, I'm not calling names.

      Lazy?  No, they put tremendous energy into being "camera-ready" and chewing every little bit of personality-based blather that comes their way.  Ed Henry, for chrissake, dissected his moment of humiliation with a fervor that spoke well of his work ethic and revealed, terrifyingly, that he was completely unaware that he'd actually been humiliated.  

      Nobody's ashamed of being stupid these days.  We're told that we shouldn't "judge" people, and that includes noting any deficiency in their language, analytic, or communication skills.  After all, such deficiencies don't make them bad people!  

      GMAFB.  I'm so sick of idiots.

      "It's not getting any smarter out there. You have to come to terms with stupidity, and make it work for you." (Frank Zappa)

      by cinnamondog on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:38:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Murphy Brown nailed it (11+ / 0-)

        The TV show Murphy Brown really nailed what happened to our press. The underlying tensions of the show was the new, blow-dried airheads were replacing the traditional journalists in the news business. I remember story lines where Murphy Brown got banned from the White House for asking real questions, and her corporate bosses didn't want her asking uncomfortable questions of those she interviewed.

        Little did we know at the time how dead-on the show would prove to be.

        Are you shaking or biting the invisible hand?

        by puppethead on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:45:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  They may be stupid, AKA John Roberts, (7+ / 0-)

        vacuous. Or, they may be really, really busy, too busy to frickin look at a book.

        The scholarship on the Great Depression is huge. Second only to Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War, I bet. Everybody from Studs Terkel to the knuckleheads at Newsweek, to Luchtenberg to Nash have written big thick books about the late 1920s-early 1940s.

        Knowing the causes and effects of the Great Depression (lots of them) should be elementary for any journalist reporting on finance issues. the Great Depression should be just as navigable by  general means as World War II: If you don't know for sure, GOOGLE IT. If you're unsure as to the accuracy, have some kind of notion as to who wrote what.

        This isn't hard stuff. I don't understand a lick about finance, but I could've called people out on Great Depression things. Not because I'm a liberal democrat, I am. But because I believe that if people are running with crazy ideas like keeping the government from spending any money at all during a depression (the Hoover way), they should be put in their place.

        "Half of the American people never read a newspaper. Half never vote for President. One hopes it is the same half." - Gore Vidal

        by sapper on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:50:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Corporate media are dishonest not lazy or stupid. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bluedoc, jds1978, Matt Z

        The corporate media make no attempt to serve or inform the public. The corporate media seek: 1. to generate profits for the corporations that own them, and, 2. to advance the interests of the corporations that own them, at the expense of the public interest.

        This is despite the supposed FCC requirement that broadcasting companies' access to publicly owned broadcast spectrum is a privilege allowed on condition that broadcasters act "in the public interest."

        Instead, they intentionally broadcast Republican Party misinformation. I guess that tells you whose country this really is.

      •  I don't know if they are lazy or stupid, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bluedoc, Matt Z

        but they are "bought."

        The most violent element in society is ignorance.

        by Mr MadAsHell on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:16:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Heard Steele saying that his "gaffes" were (0+ / 0-)

        a deliberate part of his strategy...He is an EXCELLENT representation of the Republicans.  Bush set the standards and they are all trying to live up to them.  "Oh the tangled webs we weave..."

        "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever." -- Clarence Darrow

        by Bluedoc on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:44:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The truth is we do more research right here (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Maudlin, sapper, Bluedoc, Matt Z, RustyCannon

      on many comments than they do all day.  
      Truly, if a poster makes an assertion--we jump all over it to verify the facts.

      why can't they do the same thing???  Laziness is the answer.

    •  I think they are really too " " (supply (0+ / 0-)

      your own descriptor) to know HOW to do their job.

      "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever." -- Clarence Darrow

      by Bluedoc on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:41:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I mentioned in a comment yesterday... (18+ / 0-)

    that New Deal deniars also fail to note that the infrastructure spending during the New Deal (WPA,  PWA, TVA, etc.) made increased production during the war years much more efficient. We could take one example: the Hoover Dam. Had the dam not been built during the New Deal, the far west--which became the center of wartime production for a variety of reasons--would not have had the same level of power available to run all those new factories. The examples are legion, and I think should be stressed. FDR's New Deal spending made it much easier to prevail in the Second World War.

    Of course, equally legion are examples of politican's casual and flabby revisionism.

    Is that a real poncho, or is that a Sears' poncho? - Frank Zappa

    by JoesGarage on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:31:10 AM PDT

  •  Historical fact became "a matter of opinion"... (16+ / 0-)

    about the time of Reagan.

    All evils are equal when they are extreme. - Pierre Corneille

    by LiberalCanuck on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:31:16 AM PDT

    •  Matter of opinion, yes (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bluedoc

      Historical fact became "a matter of opinion"...

      In reality, history and facts are often a matter of opinion.  Certain facts are inarguable such as the Roman Empire collapsing but all the causes and circumstances surrounding the event will be argued till the end of time.  Even "facts" are often arguable.  History is a very fuzzy subject.

    •  As a nation we have elevated actors to high (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LiberalCanuck

      pedestals and then elected them to office...then handed them scripts...and off we go...talking points in hand, spreading whatever ideology that needs to be spread to fertilize the minds of whoever is willing to listen.

      I heard Art Linkletter give a speech at University of South Carolina in the late 60s telling how he helped Nixon improve his image for television.  Image over substance is now the going motto.

      "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever." -- Clarence Darrow

      by Bluedoc on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:51:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Rural electrification (15+ / 0-)

    Over 60% of the land mass of the United State was not wired and did not have electric service before the New Deal. The infrastructure that was built starting in the late 1930s is still serving much of rural America.

    It would be depressing for those areas to still be without power dontchathink?

    This is not what I thought I'd be when I grew up.

    by itzik shpitzik on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:31:17 AM PDT

  •  Once we can get them (23+ / 0-)

    to call BS when a Republican claims that we were attacked by Saddam Hussein on 9/11, then maybe we can start working on the history of the Depression.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

    by sidnora on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:31:21 AM PDT

  •  you're right (8+ / 0-)

    And allowing the R distortions to go unchallanged means our democracy might be ending.  With print media disappearing and deteriorating, the electorate will not be well informed.  The internet, especially blogs, is not a reliable source for news--just a reliable source on where to find the news.  Sorry--dkos strives for honesty--most blogs strive for audience.

  •  True History (7+ / 0-)

    ...it's not just for breakfast anymore.

    I'll bet you could start a new news network to correct all the revisionist history bullshit the MSM creates.

    Call it - THE HISTORY CHANNEL...

    No, wait....

  •  Don't hold your breath. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bluedoc

    I've seen the future and I've left it behind - Ozzy

    by bejammin075 on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:32:01 AM PDT

  •  Did you send this to them? n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bluedoc, PsychoSavannah

    "The eyes of the future are looking back at us and they are praying for us to see beyond our own time." - Terry Tempest Williams

    by your neighbor on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:33:16 AM PDT

  •  I actually heard someone say on (15+ / 0-)

    Morning Joe that the New Deal CAUSED the great depression.

    He wasn't even challenged on that as an historical FACT!

    We are the ones we've been waiting for, he liked to say, but people were waiting for him, waiting for someone to finish what a King began.

    by Snickers77 on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:33:17 AM PDT

  •  If our current incarnation of journalism (16+ / 0-)

    had been around in the early 1970's, Woodward and Bernstein would have gone to Ben Bradlee with the beginnings of Watergate, Bradlee would have said that he had gotten a call from Nixon and there was nothing to this 'breakin/coverup'.  And that would have been the end of the story.  

    Dear Lame Stream Media: Wake the Fuck Up!

    I want my Constitution back!

    by jaf49 on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:33:21 AM PDT

    •  It makes sense.... (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bluedoc, Matt Z, Chrispy67, jaf49, RustyCannon

      I mean, now, journalists have to be "nice" to politicians (of all stripes) because they fear losing access.

      To which I have two responses:

      1.) You can get the official talking points and press releases without access very easily -- and that's all "access" really seems to get reporters nowadays anyway.

      2.) Any news organization that does enough real reporting will get enough public credibility that politicians and newsmakers would be ill-advised to ignore them. (Hell, Jim Cramer had to go on Comedy Central to defend himself.)

      •  Excellent points, both. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bluedoc, Matt Z, jaf49, gsadamb

        Let's bust them up in little pieces so they can't hold us hostage like this.

        by RustyCannon on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:51:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks.... Unfortunately... (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Bluedoc, Matt Z, Chrispy67, jaf49, RustyCannon

          It's pretty easy to figure out and I have to imagine that if journalism these days was about informing the people, we'd see a lot more legitimate reporting.

          But it's instead become a trade of incredibly narcissistic people. The average person doesn't care who asks the questions at press conferences and what networks they're with, but it seems to be everything to journalists now. I'm sure it's very exciting to have a great seat in the White House Press Room and credentials to fly around on Air Force One, but if that's why someone's in the business, it's time for some reevaluation.

          •  You really nailed that one, (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bluedoc, Matt Z, RustyCannon, gsadamb

            gsadamb.  It's all about access these days, not doing real journalism.  

            As Thomas Jefferson said: Whenever people are well-informed they can be trusted with their own government.

            Well, our Lame Stream Press no longer provides us with information, only talking points.  Maybe one day they'll wake up and realize what fools they've been.  

            Maybe.

            I want my Constitution back!

            by jaf49 on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:13:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Hey...you are right...look at all the coverage (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jaf49, RustyCannon

            that little pudgy faced "journalist" from CNN got by asking President Obama the stupid question about "why he waited so long to comment about..."  President Obama doesn't have much patience for idiocy...and neither do I.  But look at all the "attention" the little fellow got.  Met his objective I suppose...maybe not in the way he had hoped.

            "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever." -- Clarence Darrow

            by Bluedoc on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:59:00 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  The earth is flat. (13+ / 0-)

    If a Republican said this, the news media would say "Democrats say the earth is round. We will let you make up your own mind."

    With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

    by brooklynbadboy on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:34:06 AM PDT

  •  It's pretty telling... (8+ / 0-)

    That we had to have organizations like FactCheck and PolitiFact rise to the challenge of this crazy "fact-checking" process you allude to.

    Kinda gotta wonder what journalists' real function is if they can't do that. I can read emails from any politician or interest group if I just want the unfiltered dope. I can watch any number of analysis or commentary to reinforce my viewpoint.

    It's a strange trend. As information has become more readily available, the people who are supposed to research and report on that information have abdicated their duties.

    •  There are many people who can't afford computers (0+ / 0-)

      or the internet...and they are losing the "airwaves" since tv is going digital and mostly cable...we need to revive public broadcasting and RADIO if the downward economic spiral continues for any length of time.  I don't trust these bastards.

      "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever." -- Clarence Darrow

      by Bluedoc on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 09:03:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Nice post, DT, but ... (9+ / 0-)

    ... you are just going to give yourself a headache by banging your head against a wall.

    Take for example today's CNN.com Ruben Navarrette's opinion piece.

    In this article, he states that Obama is failing economics because his budget & resovery bill will run up the deficit. And that Obama is lying because he said he wants to lower the deficit.

    Two things should be painfully clear to someone who is educated, pays attention and actually computes data before writing a nationally syndicated column:

    1. Most economists agree that there are not enough sectors in the economy spending. So as we saw in the New Deal, the gov't can be very effective in doing that. This will run up deficits for a LIMITED TIME.
    1. Obama's budget is stated CLEARLY as a 10-year budget with deficit REDUCTIONS starting in year 3 AFTER the recession subsides.

    But in the world of instant gratificatio and 24x7 news, patience and understanding take a back seat to driving conflict and click-throughs with heated rhetoric to drive ad revenue.

    •  Assumptions (0+ / 0-)

      Obama's budget is stated CLEARLY as a 10-year budget with deficit REDUCTIONS starting in year 3 AFTER the recession subsides.

      You got to watch those assumptions.  They often come back to bite you where it hurts.  Lets hope not in this case.

    •  Yes, I read Navarrette's piece (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bluedoc

      and it really pissed me off.  These guys are such grandstanders that it's unreal.  They pick some inflammatory headline and then just spew nonsense.  That part about Obama lying really chapped me.

    •  Ever notice how quickly people who do not (0+ / 0-)

      respect the truth are to call someone with integrity a "liar"...

      In this article, he states that Obama is failing economics because his budget & resovery bill will run up the deficit. And that Obama is lying because he said he wants to lower the deficit.

      You can learn much about someone by the unfounded accusations they throw at others.

      "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever." -- Clarence Darrow

      by Bluedoc on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 09:07:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Germans bombed Pearl Harbor (12+ / 0-)

    Are you shaking or biting the invisible hand?

    by puppethead on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:36:10 AM PDT

  •  I appreciate this. I hope someone responsible (5+ / 0-)

    reads this. It is a damned shame what they are allowing to happen.  then at some point in the future, they'll be trying to back tack or correct.  They are useless, but dangerous too.

    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

    by publicv on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:36:47 AM PDT

  •  P.S. to media... (8+ / 0-)

    You really should read Devilstower's previous post on the subject, Once Upon a Time in Republican Land.

    It has FACTS.  Remember those, you gossip queens?

    •  What a great term, "gossip queens" is. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bluedoc, chumley, Matt Z

      An article in my local paper was headlined "Vampire rumors spur alert at Boston school".  It said that the headmaster at the Boston Latin School, described as an elite preparatory school, sent out an e-mail Thursday, at 8 a.m. saying:

      It has come to my attention that rumors involving 'vampires' began spreading through the building Thursday.

      Two law enforcement officials...said a group of girls had been bullying at least one other student who likes to dress in Goth-style...
      The girls began spreading a rumor that the student was a vampire who had cut someone's neck and sucked the blood.

      Sounds a lot like what the Bill O' and Morning Joe type  gossip queens at Fox do as well as many of the Republican politicians. Lets call what they say what it is.  The gossip queens, spreading vampire stories.

      Justice, if not pursued, does not exist.

      by phonegery on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:29:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Two Things Are Going On Here (10+ / 0-)

    First, this reflects the appalling ignorance of history among the American public and the newsmedia. Even the wingnuts themselves don't know anything beyond their talking points (remember last year's Tweety smackdown of the guy who didn't know what "Munich" referred to?).

    Second, it reflects the media's insane tendency to respond to any factual matter by turning it into a he-said-she-said between Republicans and Democrats.  It saves them lots of fact-checking time and creates conflict. And conflict sells add time.

    We are so fracked!

    Great post, though....

    Self-styled progressives who call for balanced budgets are not merely parroting conservatives; they are parroting dead conservatives. - James Galbraith

    by GreenSooner on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:37:04 AM PDT

    •  Not when people stop watching! (0+ / 0-)

      And conflict sells add time.

      "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever." -- Clarence Darrow

      by Bluedoc on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 09:11:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And it's cheap to run those types of shows (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GreenSooner, Matt Z

      Just have a couple of polar opposites argue with each other over hypothetical bullshit and mind reading, and let the gasbag who has the show interject on the hypothetical bullshit and mind reading.

      Instead of going to spots around the world, sending out real reporters to trouble spots and talking to real people on the ground, you have staged studio debates and contrived crisis.

      Cheap to program, and there is enough of a demographic chunk for them to make money on it.

      "Don't let your mouth get your ass in trouble." Shaft 1971

      by gereiztkind on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 09:34:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I would add a line to the end saying: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bluedoc, RustyCannon, CityLightsLover

    "Fail to do so and history will blame you."

    "The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative." Winston Churchill

    by Cofcos on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:37:11 AM PDT

  •  a fantastic book (6+ / 0-)
    i highly recommend:

    Lies My Teacher Told Me

    "Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence; the palaces of kings are built upon the ruins of the bowers of paradise." Thomas Paine, Common Sense

    by Cedwyn on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:38:53 AM PDT

    •  Awesome book !!!! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cedwyn, Bluedoc, kirbybruno

      Throw history texts away; they're not merely worthless, they're dishonest, misleading and a net loss to education.  They are built to sell well in the biggest markets, ie Texas, where the state only reluctantly decided not to gut evolution from their curriculum early this week.

      This book, Lies My Teacher Told Me by sociologist James W. Loewen, and Howard Zinn's A People’s History of the United States  are must reads.

      "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people." -Eleanor Roosevelt

      by AllanTBG on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:25:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That would be a great way to teach history... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AllanTBG

        give an erroneous news report and have the students to do "investigative" reports on what is wrong with this picture!!!

        Hey teachers out there...if you aren't too ham-strung by the rules and regulations you should try this.

        "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever." -- Clarence Darrow

        by Bluedoc on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 09:13:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I swear that I get the best book recs here (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cedwyn, Bluedoc

      I will check it out!

      "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." A. Einstein

      by kirbybruno on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:48:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  apathy, ignorance and intellectual laziness (5+ / 0-)

    is dangerous to the health of the republic however it is also the most widely used tool in the political arsenal to bamboozle and fool as many of the people as possible.

    Those who truly drink the koolaid can be understood, but those, especially the many who come to sites like this who continue to over-simpligy, outright distort and otherwise fail to use their own abilities to dig out the truth, constantly distort and obscure positions held by the current administration on reforming or re-shaping the many seriously complex and crucial issues that face the world today.

    In America it is health reform, energy, education and climate change that head the list. People still have extremely fuzzy and often wrong impressions oif what can be done and what must be done.

    I am sick and tired of people blaming everyone else instead of accepting the electorate's role in all of these serious situations.

  •  This intellectual laziness is symptomatic (10+ / 0-)

    of a society that does not place a great deal of value on developing critical analytical skills.  This is an endemic problem which will ultimately only be solved by better education.

    The news media dumbs down because its audience is, largely, dumb. We have a lot of fat, happy and dumb people in this country. As technology provides more and more diversions and distractions and requires less and less independence of thought, the population slides into a malleable mass of pleasure-seeking dolts.

    Anyone who has watched the gradual buffoonery take hold on Network television during the past fifteen-twenty years can see this. The rise of voyeuristic "reality TV" series and junior-high school sexual entendres that now dominate the public's viewing choices is a good indicator of just how stupid this society has allowed itself to become.

    Who was Bush_Horror2004, anyway?

    by Dartagnan on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:40:13 AM PDT

  •  Just spoke (4+ / 0-)

    with Mr. Phoonman. My cat. He says that I should not hold my breath waiting for the first anchor to act like an anchor.

    Common Sense is not Common

    by RustyBrown on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:40:47 AM PDT

  •  And the media asks: (6+ / 0-)

    What would Wolf Blitzer do?

    I am a liberal - I question authority, ALL authority.

    by Pescadero Bill on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:40:58 AM PDT

  •  I want them to take (8+ / 0-)

    four whole seconds and go that extra step of saying:

    1. no, that's not right; and
    1. not only did recovery from the Great Depression begin within the first 100 days of the New Deal, but
    1. the current economic crisis began with the dismantling of the safety measures put in place during New Deal.
  •  Just go away (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bluedoc, JeffW, CityLightsLover

    The Republicans are anti people and all big busniess

  •  Nice try, Devilstower. (5+ / 0-)

    But the friggin' hairdos who are on news shows are too ignorant to realize when ignorance is being spouted by a guest.

    I'm the plowman in the valley - with my face full of mud

    by labradog on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:43:18 AM PDT

  •  As far as the WWII argument goes why (5+ / 0-)

    not just point out that Roosevelt could have just as easily taken all the money spent on the war and added it to the investment at home. What if, instead of building more tanks and battleships we built more dams and railways? Instead of sending soldiers to battle we instead put them to work building those dams, railways, etc...

    My point is that republicans are idiots when they pose this argument, but so seldom do democrats point out that it wasn't the war but SPENDING on the war that enabled us to finally emerge from the depression.

    Beer cans are beautiful. It's the roads that are ugly. -- Edward Abbey

    by frankzappatista on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:43:19 AM PDT

  •  Does this mean CNBC "bullshit" comments during (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bluedoc, Matt Z, CityLightsLover, Meggie

    a Presidential townhall meeting should stop too? Man you are really taking all the fun out of journamalism. Link

  •  Silly Goose! The GERMANS Bombed Pearl Harbor. n/t (8+ / 0-)

    On behalf of my entire state, I apologize for Evan Bayh!

    by CityLightsLover on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:43:50 AM PDT

  •  This was Jon Stewart's meta-point (11+ / 0-)

    when he had is tête-à-tête with Cramer.

    Stewart's primary complaint was that the media just accepted everything at face value, not doing due diligence to check the validity of statements.

    My (now deceased) father in law was an old school political reporter who covered every admin from JFK through Clinton. even though he was a senior member of the White House Press Corps (more seniority than Helen Thomas!) he was bemoaning the trade of "soft coverage for access" as early as the Nixon Admin. Remember, at the time Woodward and Bernstein were outsiders to the WH press corps, and essentially derided for chasing after a story with "no there there."

    This trend has been going on for a long time and the Reps are better at utilizing this weakness as a major part of their media strategy.

    The solution? Keep pointing it out! The first step to change is recognizing the problem. Write op-eds, letters, post on blogs - challenge your local and national reporters to do due diligence. Now that network news departments are required to show profits like every other division, it'll be more difficult - but spending your hard earned dollars on substantive reportage and ignoring the fluff is a good start. Whatever else you may think of it, the market will respond to pressure from consumers.

    "It's never too late to have a happy childhood" - Tom Robbins

    by ARS on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:44:55 AM PDT

  •  For years, US had dumbed down and was (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RustyBrown, jds1978, Matt Z, JeffW

    proud of it. No wonder media just followed suit.

    From Alabama to Obama - You've come a long way baby. ***Rush, Jindal and Steele - The Axis of Drivel***

    by amk for obama on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:45:01 AM PDT

  •  Here here! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RustyBrown, JeffW

    This meme is gaining more and more traction through repetition and the purveyors of the lie never get challenged. Wimps making $millions don't have time to push back on that one? Our media is in a deplorable state.

    Let's bust them up in little pieces so they can't hold us hostage like this.

    by RustyCannon on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:45:49 AM PDT

  •  Undoing the "New Deal" has been a GOP goal (8+ / 0-)

    for a long long time. Ending public education is another.

    Anyway, discrediting Keynes is a key aspect of their plan. I believe the "Paradox of Thrift" offers an easily digested introduction to the core concepts of Keynesian recovery strategy.

    "Seeing our planet as a whole, enables one to see our planet as a whole" - Tad Daley

    by Bill White on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:46:47 AM PDT

    •  Undoing the "Civil War" (6+ / 0-)

      has been a GOP goal for a long long time. To the Rethuglicans, slavery is just "the invisible hand of the free market" working its magic. The program has been to undo every human right to make a living freely by concentrating the wealth of America in a few hands. It is so... Plantation Ethic. Of course, it ain't about being black, its about being human with a soul that merits economic slavery.

      Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

      by OregonOak on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:56:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Here We Go Again: Begging the MSM (10+ / 0-)

    Look folks, the MSM is never, ever going to fully tell the truth or end their massive pro-corporate propaganda. ultimately that is what this is all about.

    why do you think they pay drug limbaugh $400 million?

    GE owns ABC. you think they're going to allow much of anything negative about the ongoing wars or corporations to pass thru their filter and be broadcast?

    gimme a break.

    "Don't complain about the media, become the media!"

    Jello Biafra.

    if you don't get this, it means you're not looking close enough at the problem.

    "Where is the change? What has changed? Clarify this to us." Ali Khamene'i

    by Superpole on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:46:52 AM PDT

    •  You are right, though GE owns NBC (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bluedoc, marina, Superpole, jds1978, Matt Z, brein
    •  No argument there. However, I think it's not an (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bluedoc, marina

      .
      . . . un-worth while exercise to continuously ridicule and lampoon and deride the Media Heathers and assorted bobble-heads that purport to give America "the news" via CNN, Fox and the other usual t.v. and print suspects.

       bg
      ________________

      "Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove." -- P.G. Wodehouse (via Bertie Wooster)

      by BenGoshi on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:55:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  BG, you know (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BenGoshi, Bluedoc

        I'm a fan of your stuff here... ;-)

        it's just, IMHO, a waste of time to constantly whine about the MSM.. they're background noise at this point.

        we need more street actions..

        "Where is the change? What has changed? Clarify this to us." Ali Khamene'i

        by Superpole on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:10:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's not whining, it's calling-out these idiots. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Bluedoc, marina

          .
            Constantly, incessantly, relentlessly.  

            I'm not sure what you mean by "more street actions", but if you're talking about crowds and placards outside of Fox News'/CNN HQ in Manhattan, then I'm with you, certainly.

            Not all of us can, as a practical matter, do "street actions" day in and day out.  But we can "spread the word" via the i'nets about the Media's serial idiocies.

            It's not a "do this" or "do that" thing.  It's calling bullshit on these people by every means and through every medium we can.  Including the www.

            Thanks for your kind words about what I write.

           bg
          _______________

          "Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove." -- P.G. Wodehouse (via Bertie Wooster)

          by BenGoshi on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:16:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  The dumbing down of America. (6+ / 0-)

    When the new republican budget came out yesterday, my kids and I had a good laugh.  We discussed just how difficult it would be to get away with calling that a 19-page document in any of their classes.  Instant F.

    DailyKos - taking a bag of political snakes and laying them out straight.

    by Meggie on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:48:09 AM PDT

  •  Hoover and the Republicans (9+ / 0-)

    It's easy to forget, but the great stock market crash of 1929 occurred during the first year of the Hoover administration. It was three and a half years before FDR came in in 1933. That was their very bad luck back then, and it's our good luck that our crash happened when the Republicans were already on their way out.

    If you want to seek a reason why the depression got so bad, I think that years of Republicanism under Hoover might be a pretty good candidate for an explanation.

    Greg Shenaut

    •  They never let facts get in their way... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jds1978, Matt Z, monroematt, brein
    •  Correct... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Matt Z, brein

      ...Hoover just was completely unprepared for the Depression and the only solution Republicans then (and now) had was just to wait it out because the business cycle would eventually recover on its own.  When that didn't happen, the country was fucked -- but it took more than 3 years before the electorate could do anything about it.  Americans are really, really fortunate that there wasn't a violent revolution of either the communist or fascist variety in the early 1930s.

      The most offensive thing about the "WWII ended the Depression" lie, other than it being completly false, is that WWII probably would never have occurred if there hadn't been a Depression (or if it had been much less severe), since the Nazis would never have come into power.

      "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -- Dom Hélder Câmara

      by SLKRR on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:01:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  P.S. - If you (the Media) wonders why D Kos-types (8+ / 0-)

    .
     so often deride and lampoon you for behaving like such vapid, shallow, uninformed bobble-heads, it's primarily due to your behaving like such vapid, shallow, uninformed bobble-heads.

     It's sort of a cause-and-effect kind of thing.

     bg
    _______________

     

    "Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove." -- P.G. Wodehouse (via Bertie Wooster)

    by BenGoshi on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:48:29 AM PDT

    •  pardon my typo/s: "media wonders", "y'all wonder" (0+ / 0-)

      .
       See, I don't have a team of overpaid editors and producers whose job it is to make sure I "look good".  You, on the other hand, do.  And yet you still too often (as in 24/7) come across like vapid, shallow, uninformed bobble-heads.

       I've got an excuse.  What's yours?

      bg
      _____________

      "Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove." -- P.G. Wodehouse (via Bertie Wooster)

      by BenGoshi on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:51:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  While conservatives deride the media (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BenGoshi, jds1978, Matt Z, brein

      for being "liberal," liberals dont simply deride them for being conservative. It's okay if theyre conservative. The problem we have is just that they are such SHITTY JOURNALISTS.

      With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

      by brooklynbadboy on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:57:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Cult of WWII as the source of all things good (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jds1978

    and virtuous in America doesn't help one damned bit.

    A lot of people - not just conservatives - take "it took WWII to end the Great Depression" as axiomatic, because WWII was just goshdarnit such a good thing.

    No look at the economic data is necessary. It was a virtuous war, and the first one with lots of stock film footage and a whole movie industry devoted to recreating it, it HAD to be the greatest boon for America evah.

  •  My guess would be because they don't know (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jds1978, bluegrass50

    that it isn't true! They don't know history...or much of anything.

  •  That's what the corporatist media DO. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gooserock, marina, Matt Z, brein

    The corporatist media (I prefer "corporatist" to "traditional"--the latter gives the propagandists too much credit, since "traditional" has emotional overtones of being justified by tradition) are designed to do just that: push the corporate agenda.  The Rethug's are corporatists, in the Mussolini sense--they are not interested in truth, but in propaganda that aims at consolidation and furthering of corporate power and influence.

    I don't understand these "open letters" and other attempts to get the corporatist media to "listen".  You might as well ask a pig to stop hogging slop, or a Republican to tell the truth.  They are incapable of it because they weren't designed to do any such thing.

    •  Yes In Fact Our System is DESIGNED For Them to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      alamacTHC

      push that agenda.

      There's no other way they can function, except for very small niche audiences. It's not possible under the framers' system to inform the people as their system requires.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:02:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is another battle in a very long war. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jds1978, OregonOak, bluegrass50, brein

    The war between labor and capital. The Depression/New Deal was the largest but far from the only clash between the two.

    The media is on the side of capital. It's very simple, really.

  •  someone needs to ask the New Deal (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AllanTBG, jds1978, Matt Z, brein

    deniers (they are even worse than climate change deniers) what would have happened in America without the New Deal.

    They need to look at the economic figures from 1933 - 1940 to see that the economy got better and better (with one small slowdown due to reduced federal spending in 1937 or so).

    OK, the employment figures and GDP did not hit pre Depression levels until the war, but they were getting continually better in the 30s. Without the New deal we would have spiralled down into violent revolution.

    What the GOP will not ever say is that FDR did not quite do enough.  If he had spent MORE we would have been better off by 1940 before the war.  As mentioned upthread, it was war SPENDING and gov't created jobs that finally took care of the economy. That and all the post war spending on the GI Bill etc.

  •  I heard this same crap on NPR this morning (10+ / 0-)

    And had exactly the same reaction, "LOOK AT THE DATA, YOU MORONS!!!! THE ECONOMY IMPROVED UNDER THE NEW DEAL UNTIL PEOPLE CHICKENED OUT AND STOPPED THE STIMULUS SPENDING!!!!!" GRRRR! GRRRRRR!!!!!

    On the brighter side, I am enjoying Sirius radio's "POTUS" station, lots of raw audio of Congressional testimony, press conferences, etc.; lack of raving wingnut carpet-chewers; their blog reviewer is sort of lame, but at least they are well aware of the blogosphere.

  •  If I did my job (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BenGoshi, marina, royce, Meggie, awsdirector

    the way the MSM does it's job, I wouldn't have a job.

    Meanwhile, the old saw remains true:  A lie will travel half way around the world before the truth can get its boots on.  

    "I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus" Firesign Theatre 1971

    by LeftOfYou on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:52:33 AM PDT

  •  They won't read your letter, DT (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marina, Matt Z, brein, awsdirector

    As good as it is, as accurate as it is, the media has contracted NeoGOP disease:  The absolute belief that they can do no wrong.  Therefore they cannot be told anything by folks like us.

    My take on these questions...

    So why do you continue to allow Republican officials and conservative pundits to make statements such as "the Great Depression didn't end until World War II" or "the New Deal prolonged the depression" without comment? These statements are as incorrect as declaring Idaho a sovereign monarchy -- why are they constantly unchallenged?

    Because people who are only interested in making history never have the time to read history, making it impossible for them to learn from past mistakes.  After all...they are never wrong, right?

    Sure...right.

  •  We are dealing with tribalism, nothing more (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BenGoshi, wonmug, brooklynbadboy, brein

    Facts don't matter, theory doesn't matter, reality doesn't matter.

    Whatever advances the interests of the GOP tribe is "good" and everything else is bad.

    Recognize that and it all makes sense.

    "Seeing our planet as a whole, enables one to see our planet as a whole" - Tad Daley

    by Bill White on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:56:14 AM PDT

    •  Additionally, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BenGoshi, brein

      the news media, especially in Washington, is mostly involved in an internal "alpha" competition. They are mostly concerned with themselves and the opinions and concerns of their peers.

      No matter how vapid and stupid, they are mostly concerned with earning pats on the back from each other.

      With him from the beginning, with him until the end.

      by brooklynbadboy on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:59:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That might exlain how surprised and shocked (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        brooklynbadboy, brein

        they are when data shows that.  As they rag on Obama's plans and how bad they are received, polling of actual live citizens shows the opposite.

        "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people." -Eleanor Roosevelt

        by AllanTBG on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:29:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  P.S. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BenGoshi, Sleepwalkr, awsdirector

    And Saddam Hussein was not responsible for 9/11.  And the Iraq war has not made us safer.  And a 19 page storybook about fiscal fantasies is not a "budget."  And...

    sigh.

  •  "FDR" by Jean Edward Smith (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Devilstower

    All pundits, MSM types and so-called reporters need to read this book.  Best book on FDR I've ever read.

    It supports every point made by Devilstower in this (and other) diary, and it's detail is amazingly clear.

  •  another option: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    snazzzybird

    even if they can't call these idiots on their idiotic lies how about having more guests who actually know the truth and can speak to it?  How about some economists and historians who know what they are talking about?

    Why are only blowhard politicians on TV these days?  All they do is bloviate.

    And TV does not seem to have very many progressive or even liberal politicians "commenting".

  •  This one can go both ways. (0+ / 0-)

    Unemployment at the time we entered into WWii was still nearly double what it is today after 8 years of FDR, and the country was recovering, but still pretty much on its rear end,

    The Depression would have ended with or without WWII, but it's fair to say that FDR did not end it.  He did an awful lot, however, to ease its misery and to lay the groundwork for recovery.  One can never know, but he may even have saved the nation as an entity.

    It's easy to forget that the Great Depression was a lot more than the Wall Street crash or even a global financial crisis.  FDR also had to deal with severe drought in 100.000,000 acres of American farmland, the great Dust Bowl that drove families from their farms in search of work.

    The Great Depression was a catastrophe, but it could have been worse.  As it was, the rule of law was stretched to the breaking point, from petty theft and trespassing by hobos, to armed neighbors showing up to dissuade biddres at a farm auction.

    We were far down the road to the conditions that, in other places and times, have led to collapse and authoritarian rule.

    Whatever may have made theoretical economic sense, people needed to work and FDR put people to work.
    Did he go about it the best way?  Who knows?  Sometimes good enough fast enough is better than perfect too late.

    Free speech? Yeah, I've heard of that. Have you?

    by dinotrac on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:59:25 AM PDT

  •  In all fairness you don't understand (6+ / 0-)

    the howard kurtz journalism class ethos.  If one makes an assertion that Calvin Coolidge was one of our founding fathers and led Revolutionary War soldiers at the battle of Bull Run, then all you have to do is to present another figure that asserts another point of view, NOT dispute the first point of view. That's balanced journalism the kurtzian method.

    To do otherwise would be....    uncivil (HORRORS!!!).  Heaven's, we can't have uncivil people disputing facts in a world that david broder inhabits, now can we?  He would get woozy and faint and poor howard would have to explain that to fred hiatt.

    A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' Douglas Adams

    by dougymi on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 07:59:35 AM PDT

    •  A great comment. You nail it. - nt - (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dougymi

      "Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove." -- P.G. Wodehouse (via Bertie Wooster)

      by BenGoshi on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:02:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I never have figured out (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dougymi, Matt Z, brein

      at what point FACTS starting having 2 opposing sides...

      "Prez is the pootie...and press is the pootie toy."(BiPM)

      by awsdirector on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:05:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They don't, (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BenGoshi, Matt Z, brein, awsdirector

        except in the world of howard kurtz, which is where a healthy slice of American "journalism" seems to get its cues.  He says often in his columns, chats and tv show that it's not his job to tell someone that they're wrong, just to present another side (although he seems to have NO problem at all telling readers that they're wrong, but that's another issue). This outlook has traveled from his columns and shows to most of the wapo and cnn, as well as the rest of the cablenets and a good percentage of the print media.

        It's been a while since I took journalism classes at Michigan State (late 70s) but I don't recall that as being any part of what was presented there. I'm quite sure that it wasn't what kurtz was taught, either.

        A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' Douglas Adams

        by dougymi on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:12:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  It's Not Their Job To Inform the People (0+ / 0-)

    It's their job to promote the top corporate agenda.

    There is no role of informing the electorate under our system. If somebody wants to try to do it, fine, but it's on their own dime and they have no rights to do it outside their own private property and on some government property, under a number of restrictions.

    The media aren't doing anything wrong.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:01:36 AM PDT

  •  Just read your post...you have nailed an (0+ / 0-)

    important issue.  When did we slide into "infotainment" where the lines are not only blurred but obliterated by MSM between truth and fantasy.

    I believe it is a remnant of the last 8 years of complete lack of regard for truth and reality in favor of creating images to prop up positions taken by a rogue administration.

    Requirements to be in front of a camera posing as a "journalist" seem to be:  a certain "appearance", minimal ability to read a teleprompter, and willingness to accept news feeds without questioning validity of sources, and desire to capture "audience" with emotional sound bytes.

    I believe that the MSM has totally lost credibility as have the republican wingnuts...but neither seem to realize it.  They are both ridiculous.

    "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever." -- Clarence Darrow

    by Bluedoc on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:04:14 AM PDT

  •  Discussing history is always a two way (0+ / 0-)

    street. I usually never agree with anything republicans say. I don't agree with the premise the great depression ended because ww2 started and there were no jobs and businesses so when ww2 men joined the army, factories started making war goods, and women had to work instead of men. There is truth to that though. The worst years of the depression was 1932 and 1933, the first year of FDR's presidency. However, the economy started turning around in 1934 (2 years before the Tazz was born). GNP rose 7.7 percent, and unemployment fell to 21.7 percent. A long road to recovery began that really didn't fully recover until ww2 started. So their story is 10% accurate, which means it isn't accurate at all in the end.

    You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

    by tazz on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:04:23 AM PDT

  •  Republicans mention WWII because they want war. (0+ / 0-)

    Their thinking is that if we go to war with Iran, it will speed along our transformation into a prosperous, permanent war state. Nothing like a war to assert our might, rev up industries, and unify the people!

    Too bad they just can't see that a war with Iran will finally break the tottering American empire and lead us to utter financial ruin. To say nothing of all the lives needlessly lost.

  •  Short answer: media r stoopid! n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z, awsdirector

    Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

    by JeffW on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:04:32 AM PDT

  •  What is history but who we are? (0+ / 0-)

    Not who we were, but who we are. We owe it to ourselves and our children to understand what exactly happened.

    By not being stewards of an accurate understanding of who we are, we are killing our prospects of who we will be.

    With this respect, those people asking questions have a burden to call people on what is patently wrong. However, I'd give media people a little slack, I think just by sticking a microphone in their face and having them say how badly they regard history, they're doing a service.

    That said, the burden is on us to decide how wrong a path is. It's important for everyone, not just media types, to understand who we are.

    "Half of the American people never read a newspaper. Half never vote for President. One hopes it is the same half." - Gore Vidal

    by sapper on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:05:10 AM PDT

  •  Thank You - N/T (0+ / 0-)

    "Upward, not Northward" - Flatland, by EA Abbott

    by linkage on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:06:24 AM PDT

  •  Beautifully put (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JC from IA

    It is essays like this that make me so proud to be a liberal. We have the angels on our side. (At least the smart angels).

  •  You forgot charts!! We must use charts! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Devilstower

    With all the bitching about spending too much and being in debt too much.... what EXACTLY is too much? More importantly, how much is not enough?

    This chart shows how much percentage of GDP we went into debt from the Great Depression to now.

    Notice that to get out of the Depression we were spending over and beyond anything we are spending now!
    THis probably started the RW meme that war is good for the economy, but of course it was the massive spending on the war, not the war itself that helped us recover.

    National-Debt-GDP

    THis next chart shows how effective specific type of spending stimulates the economy.
    Notice that tax cuts is way the hell down there....
    I can hardly wait to see the Repubs budget numbers!

    stimuluschart

    Now... anybody got more charts?

    "A lie repeated may be accepted as fact, but the truth repeated becomes self evident." -elonifer skyhawk

    by Fireshadow on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:12:11 AM PDT

  •  The GOP Talks Economics. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JC from IA

    .

    h/t to fark and, of course, Idiocracy.

    bg
    ________________

    "Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove." -- P.G. Wodehouse (via Bertie Wooster)

    by BenGoshi on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:12:27 AM PDT

  •  Also, for the "mortgaging our children's future" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lovespaper

    bunch: Why not ask them what our children's future will be like if we don't make these investments? If we doom them to less education, poorer nutrition (thanks to their parents' unemployment), unaffordable medical care?

    They're benefitting. Hugely. Why shouldn't they share the cost?

    Mother Nature doesn't do bailouts. -- Thomas L. Friedman

    by jazzyndn on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:15:30 AM PDT

  •  Damn right. DAMN right! nt (3+ / 0-)

    Join my Facebook posse here. It's awesome!

    by Bill in Portland Maine on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:15:35 AM PDT

  •  I had no idea that when the Soviet Union (0+ / 0-)

    collapsed, the Republicans purchased their news agency Tass.

    The most violent element in society is ignorance.

    by Mr MadAsHell on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:20:16 AM PDT

  •  the news media *works* for the GOP (0+ / 0-)

    that's the simple reason they avoid calling the GOP on the "New Deal" lies.

    This is why I have not turned on the TV to a news (or any other commercial-bearing) channel for months.

    LinkTV or nothing.

  •  The media is just lagging the politics. (0+ / 0-)

    This sort of revisionist history has been going on in many regards for some time.  Revisionist definitions, too.

    Soon, we will 'learn' that Reagan 'balanced' the 'budget'.  But, none of those words will have any recognizable meaning.

    The media needs to be mocked for letting this stuff get by, certainly.

    But, first, we must cease to accept those who utter such nonsense.

    It may put certain pols out of work, but that's just the price we will have to pay.

  •   False equivalence frames... (5+ / 0-)

    ... are much more important to the traditional media than facts.

    In other words, when Republicans lie out of their asses about the Great Depression, the meatpuppets don't see it as a lie.  They see it as "the Republicans' side of the argument."

    That's why Republicans are never corrected.  To correct them would "allow Democrats to win the argument."  And "make our neutral reporter appear biased."

    "The stimulus package, which I don't support, had better work."-Stephen Colbert

    by wyvern on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 08:30:09 AM PDT

  •  hear hear! (0+ / 0-)

    finally, someone has said what many of us have been thinking; the msm has utterly failed the american people to present the facts. instead, they are obsessed with controversy, taking the good ol' "we pander to your fears, prejudices and ignorance" gop talking points as fact followed by allowing the administration et. al to argue the negative.

  •  On Twitter (0+ / 0-)

    the hash tag to use is #journotwits

    Schadenfreude ist die schönste Freude.

    by InsultComicDog on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 09:01:30 AM PDT

  •  Thank you. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z, Sleepwalkr

    I was talking with my 12yo daughter the other day about the Depression (had to do with a World Studies project she's doing) and she said "but didn't the Depression end because of WWII putting all the people and factories back to work?"

    Unfortunately, she probably got that because I listen to a lot of news shows and that has been said a lot recently. I don't generally talk back to my radio and tell it when there is nonsense coming out, but I didn't realize that, by not making the correction to my daughter, she assumed that it must be the truth.

  •  Hear, hear! (0+ / 0-)

    There's a reason Democrats won massively the last two cycles, and it wasn't because people were desperate for "bipartisanship". --kos

    by Debby on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 09:03:34 AM PDT

  •  Always the focus is on... (0+ / 0-)

    the first 100 days of the Roosevelt Administration.  As Obama is fond of mentioning, FDR inherited quite a bit from Hoover so it will always be difficult to tease out exactly what is due to his actions and what is due to the preceding administration.

    1937 provides a better example in which twiddling with the reserve requirements at banks led to a depression within a depression.  The recovery from this depression took almost three years. Hence the WWII statement has some accuracy.

    No doubt some of his programs met with success, but there was also damaging programs.  To say otherwise is wrong and just as bad of an example of partisanship as demonstrated by the Republicans.

    •  you're right. when the right wing bullied and (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ruda

      browbeat roosevelt into adopting their nonsensical policies in 1937, the country dipped straight back into recession.

      whaddaya know about that.

      I don't know what to say.

      by UntimelyRippd on Sat Apr 04, 2009 at 11:48:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That is hilarious!!! (0+ / 0-)

        I see it now.  The democratic president, elected by garnering 60.8% of the popular vote in the most lopsided election in American history, the democrats in the senate, which gained six votes in the 1936 election and had 76 seats in the senate, and the democrats in the house, which gained twelve seats and had 334 seats were surely all cowed by awesumness(sp?) of the right ring bullies.

        No way were any democrats involved in the 1937 crash.  It surely was the right nut jobs.

  •  This is pure political bs no scientific inquiry (0+ / 0-)

    I cannot believe how everyone is following like sheep after this post. There are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of scholarly articles written by PhD's from every university across the country taking alternative sides to the question of whether it was FDR's new deal or WW2 that ended the great depression. You some how state that it's a fact that it was the new deal and some how that invalidates the other side completely? This is 100% political garbage and you would be laughed out of any doctorate program with such a conclusory statement. Where are your facts? And there's a reason it's called a THESIS and now a LAW. W/e, this is such a joke. A real disgrace. no idea how you can claim to be honest with this post. You are as bad as those you rebuke for saying as a fact the other side.

    •  The standard red herring. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sleepwalkr

      If the answer to the Depression was the New Deal, it involved government spending.  If the answer was WW2, it involved government spending.

      Trying to decide which sort of government spending was the one true answer is just an exercise in psycho-babble for the sake of exercise.

      Credit to FDR for grasping that, while simultaneously persuading the Soviets to soften up the NAZIs for us in exchange for the arms and supplies necessary for us to produce for them.

      That last part stimulated our economy enormously.  It was government spending.  And, it was put into place years before Pearl Harbor.

  •  Just another thing (0+ / 0-)

    I just am still in shock. If it's such a 100% fact the new deal programs worked why are there so many scholars, including nobel prize winners, who believe otherwise? Yes, there ARE scholars who say the new deal worked. But there are also many who say it didn't, worsened the situation, and others, who I am inclined to believe, who say that neither the new deal nor WW2 played any role in the healing of the economy. But I guess they are all lying wingnut idiots right?

    •  Who are these scholars you speak of? (0+ / 0-)

      The first question, when dealing with scholarly types, is to determine whether they are particularly better-equipped to discuss a topic than the average person.  There really aren't too terribly many 'scholars' equipped to discuss history, let alone particular events and outcomes.

      But, anyone can have an opinion about anything they wish.

  •  Won't Happen (0+ / 0-)

    Who signs their paychecks? The rich media moguls. The MSM will never help oppose corporate rule. They would rather go down in flames, and they will.

    There is only one answer to the MSM, and that is to completely replace it with ourselves. Luckily, that is already happening. The level of writing and journalism in blogs has been rising steadily since they began just a few short years ago. In a few more years, there won't be any need for big media conglomerates. People will be thoroughly sick of their incessant commercial and political propaganda.

    Within a few years, citizen journalists will replace the dull, corporate "reporting" of the hacks that owe their existence to Big Oil, Big Weapons, Big Drugs or right wing loonies like Murdoch and Moon. Already blogs spend huge amounts of time pointing out the lies of the MSM. How much more work is it to simply point out the truth and replace them? Soon we shall find out.

    Eight long years, and what did we get? A couple bad wars and a mountain of debt.

    by jimbo92107 on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 09:48:58 AM PDT

  •  Who has actually read "1984" ?? (0+ / 0-)

    In the context of George Orwell's novel "1984" there is nothing at all surprising about what is happening, here.

    But what is different, today? Those pesky tubes of the intra-web

    "Seeing our planet as a whole, enables one to see our planet as a whole" - Tad Daley

    by Bill White on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 10:01:36 AM PDT

  •  I wrote to NPR. Will you? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sleepwalkr
  •  why do limbaugh and hannity make 4x AIG bonuses? (0+ / 0-)

    these myths are acceptable because 1000 radio stations pound them into the earholes of a crowd the size of the one that voted for obama, 24/7, ignored by dems/progressives/liberals. that's why.

    ignoring the talk radio monopoly continues to be the biggest political blunder in decades

    by certainot on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 10:38:59 AM PDT

  •  The depression ended in 1947 (0+ / 0-)

    Even during World War 2, the country was still in a depression. The unemployeement rate had gone down by then but that's just because a bunch of people had gone off to war. Shipping people off to die in War is a horrible way to bring down the Unemployeement rate. During World War 2 there were still massive shortages of retail and consumer goods because the entire manufacturing sector was diverted to the war effort. Probably the best way to judge the health of the economy is by the production and availability of cheap, abundant consumer goods and services and that didn't recover until after the war ended. When the United States finally won World War 2, and all the soldiers were brought home, there was a massive reduction in government spending. They were no longer spending on the war and even some of Roosevelt's New Deal policies were rolled back. Government spending decreased by about two thirds in the postwar period and taxes were cut by about one third. There was a temporary spike in the unemployeement rate in 1946 as all those soldiers in the army lost their jobs but shortly afterward, they found jobs in the private sector and we had the boom of the 50's. This is the real reason why the Depression ended, but unfortunately this message doesn't get out to the people very often because the two parties like to justify their big government programs. Liberals like to justify their welfare state by saying the New Deal got us out of the depression and Conservatives like to justify their overseas adventurism by saying it was WW2. Neither is true. War and big government spending are always bad for the economy and if you need evidence of that just look at the Bush presidency.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on who to eat for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote"- Ben Franklin

    by FromtheGOPwith3VOL on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 11:02:43 AM PDT

  •  Thank you DT! (0+ / 0-)

    This is such a peve of mine.  

  •  Distinguish Fact From Opinion (0+ / 0-)

    Reporters should correct misstatements of fact, but should not be arguing with people on matters of opinion.

    The statement "Japan bombed Pearl Harbor" is a true statement of fact.  The statement "China bombed Pearl Harbor" is a false statement of fact, and should be corrected by a reporter.  The statement "The New Deal prolonged the Great Depression" is a statement of opinion, and a reporter should not argue.  The reporter may point out that it is a statement of opinion, for example, by asking "What is the basis of that opinion?".  The reporter may also ask the guest to respond to quotes from others disagreeing with the opinion, or to explain facts that seem to contradict the opinion, but the reporter should not state his own opinion.  Nobody cares about the reporter's opinion.

  •  It's all about "professionalism" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sleepwalkr

    David Ignatius in WaPo about run up to Iraq:

    In a sense, the media were victims of their own professionalism. Because there was little criticism of the war from prominent Democrats and foreign policy analysts, journalistic rules meant we shouldn't create a debate on our own.

    As Paul Krugman has commented, if Democrats said the earth was round, and Republicans said it was flat, our worthless press would report it as "Controversy over shape of the earth."   In the MSM's view, it wouldn't be "professional" to say the Republicans were talking nonsense.

    So I guess it wouldn't be "professional" to correct a guest who spouted the lying Republican party line about the New Deal.

    Reality is just a convenient measure of complexity. -- Alvy Ray Smith

    by John Q on Fri Mar 27, 2009 at 12:26:37 PM PDT

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