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The tubes have been clogged the past few days with a couple of very important issues. One is the turmoil after the Iranian "election," and the other is President Obama's continued refusal to take a bold stand in defense of GLBT rights.

We all think the Iranian election was stolen. Millions of Iranians have taken to the streets, to protest. The future of Iran's theocratic leadership now seems tenuous. If there is no radical change, in Iran, it may be because there will be a radical crackdown. It is an historic moment.

Back at home, we once again have an intelligent, talented, and generally progressive president. But he has disappointed many of us with his compromises. Many of us feel that he should act as if he won a big election. Because he did. Many of us feel like he should act as if he were enormously popular. Because he is. Many of us think he should act as if the Republicans are deeply unpopular. Because they are. Many of us think he should use his enormous political talents to sell controversial policies to a divided public. Or on some issues, such as the public option, simply pursue a policy on which the public already is very much sold.

I've seen a lot of criticism, these past few days, directed at the GLBT community and their supporters, because they refuse to be patient as the president kicks DADT down the road, extends federal benefits without extending the most important benefits, and talks about repealing DOMA without actually doing anything about it. Many still don't understand why he didn't take a very public stand against California's Proposition 8, as Presidents Carter and Ford both did, a generation ago, against Proposition 6. Some wonder why he has been inclusive of bigots like Donnie McClurkin and Rick Warren. Would those who have defended the president feel the same if he were inclusive of bigots like David Duke and Tom Metzger? Granted, it's a moot point. Which is exactly the point.

But some seem to think that the GLBT community should just be patient. Good things will happen. Eventually. All evidence to the contrary. Just wait. You'll see. Just because we finally have a president who generally has his head and his heart in the right place doesn't mean we should pressure him, or be upset with him when he doesn't come through. Patience. If not this lifetime, maybe the next. Right?

So, I'm thinking about Iran. How many of you are full-throated supporters of the possible revolution in Iran? How many of you agree that the Iranian people have had enough, and that it's time for them to have their political and legal rights? Now, try to imagine what it's like being GLBT, in America. Try to imagine what it's like not being able to marry the adult with whom you share a mutual love. Try to imagine what it's like to not be able to share your medical benefits with that person. Try to imagine what it's like not to be able to share retirement benefits with that person. Try to imagine what it's like to live every day of your life as a second class citizen, and to have an intelligent, compassionate, and enormously popular president who is not making serious efforts to give you the same basic rights shared by everyone else. Look at the pictures of the protests, in Iran. That's what's going on inside every one of these hurt and angry members of the GLBT community.

Update [2009-6-18 18:53:30 by Turkana]: In the comments, pico writes:

Might I recommend people contacting their Congressional representatives to support the passage of the Domestic Partners Benefits and Obligations Act - aka - Lieberman/Collins in the Senate - aka - Baldwin/Ros-Lehtinen in the House?  It's only a stopgap measure until DOMA is repealed, but it's a valuable piece of legislation guaranteeing federal employees in same-sex relationships all the benefits that married couples have.

(It also puts Congress on a collision course with DOMA, which is exactly what we want.)

Originally posted to Laurence Lewis on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 01:47 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  we all are equal (156+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    skybluewater, Renee, JekyllnHyde, TXdem, mattman, tnichlsn, surfbird007, Attorney at Arms, eeff, Plutonium Page, wmandevi, Pd, TheMomCat, Hatu, KB, ehavenot, Torta, MadEye, michael1104, wader, Dallasdoc, Timoteo, churchylafemme, Nemagaiq, alizard, ganymeade, azrefugee, Sajun777, davidkc, Big Tex, julifolo, ExStr8, TheGeneral, Nadnerb in NC, Tonedevil, andgarden, Simplify, craigkg, indiemcemopants, Burned, cassidy3, QuickSilver, Eric K, RElland, wandering i, bten, zinger99, grothenberger, benny05, Ekaterin, sgary, Matt in AA, rserven, pico, esquimaux, Nightprowlkitty, sternsieger, andydoubtless, Mad Biologist, buhdydharma, droopyd, aggieric, Magnifico, fiddler crabby, Son of a Cat, fou, triv33, plf515, droogie6655321, Something the Dog Said, dirkster42, zorthron, Friend of the court, zephron, Bhishma, liberaldemdave, bigchin, anotherdemocrat, khereva, jessical, SomeStones, sfbob, jayden, Aunt Martha, cadejo4, Killer of Sacred Cows, Ken in Tex, jnhobbs, gchaucer2, Rumarhazzit, Got a Grip, Puffin, rf7777, cloudbustingkid, Predictor, TomP, gizmo59, jgilhousen, Blue Boy Red State, rogerdaddy, Lasgalen Lothir, rontun, scooter in brooklyn, dave1042, MrJayTee, TokenLiberal, Missys Brother, rubine, kyril, nokkonwud, James Kresnik, BYw, dmhlt 66, ZhenRen, lostboyjim, LaFeminista, JWSwift, smellybeast, Sportin Life, DontTaseMeBro, two roads, banjolele, a girl in MI, Leftywingnut, Yalin, PLU Tim, DefendOurConstitution, Angry Mouse, ruscle, Alec82, LaughingPlanet, voracious, chrome327, KentuckyKat, ypsiCPA, Johnny Q, Pakalolo, SuperBowlXX, Montreal Progressive, m00finsan, DawnoftheRedSun, Jed Lewison, Ms Bluezone, ElsieElsie, felldestroyed, RfrancisR, texcubsf, Faeya Wingmother, Edgewater, SilentBrook, wide eyed lib, Curiosity, blackjackal, StepLeftStepForward, AquariansRule, respondeat superior

    or we're not.

    •  It is ridiculous to have this be a conversation. (51+ / 0-)

      The conservative minority has once again co-opted American interests.

      If I blogged about keeping "browns down" and demanding that minorities be considered last for all jobs, I would be immediately considered lunacy fringe.

      If I wrote a diary about keeping minorities in separate groups in the military, my UID would be ashes in minutes. What if I suggested that we keep minorities out of the military all together (unless there is a war then it is okay and we just won't ask what color their skin is).

      This should not be a debate at all. There should be no legislation, no laws passed, nothing. How can you grant people the right to exist? How can we pass a law that says blacks are equal to whites? How can we pass legislation that allows the sexual preferences of human beings to be discussed in any way at all?

      I said this in a comment in a different diary: I got married at 19 and everyone was against it. They loudly protested my choice. 17 years later I am still happily married to my husband with the house, 2 kids, 2 dogs, and 2 kittens. Even though everyone was against it, we could still get married.

      "Sean Hannity...he's the guy who put the 'a' in moron" - Jed Lewison

      by voracious on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:05:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I would like to point out that the gay/lesbian (12+ / 0-)

        civil rights struggle isn't just about marriage and the benefits of marriage. For example, there is still no federal statute outlawing discrimination against gays and lesbians in regards to employment or housing. And let's not forget that gays and lesbians can die fighting for this country, but cannot serve openly in the United States military.

        And to those who state that gays and lesbians can simply hide their orientation and easily avoid the discrimination faced by other minorities... you should be ashamed. Anyone who has ever known the repressive and destructive nature of living a closeted life would absolutely never wish it on another human being. One simply need point to the disproportionate suicide rates among gay and lesbian teenagers to show just how destructive that can be.

        I keep moving to be stable. Free to wander, free to roam. - Peter Gabriel

        by wandering i on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:35:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think it should be simpler (11+ / 0-)

          We need a TRULY inclusive ENDA.  One that says you can only hire, fire, promote, demote, give a raise or cut a salary of a person because of things directly related to their work, and for no other reason whatsoever.

          Pain shared is lessened, joy shared, increased. Spider Robinson

          by plf515 on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:48:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Again, I don't think it needs to be hidden, but (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cedwyn, wader, ganymeade, zorthron, Predictor

          it should not be addressed. This should not be an issue. Who we kiss goodnight is not something that should be legislated because it is a right we already have. All of us. Every American adult.

          The more I read and listen to the dialogue the happier I am that Prop 8 happened. I think the conservatives overplayed their hand this time. It has forced this discussion out into the open and shown how ridiculous it is for a state to ammend its constitution to protect a certain class (heterosexual) of citizens and grant them special rights.

          At a time when marriages have a 50% divorce rate, the idea of "protecting" it is ridiculous.

          "Sean Hannity...he's the guy who put the 'a' in moron" - Jed Lewison

          by voracious on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:59:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The parallel to Iranians in the diary is an odd (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            CDH in Brooklyn
            choice, though, given the diary on the rec list all day about how Iranians may realistically HAVE to be patient.

            Republicans criticizing Democrats on torture is like a bunch of foxes complaining that the henhouse wasn't well guarded enough.

            by ShadowSD on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:41:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Indeed, we are all equal. (16+ / 0-)

      ...but some of us are more equal than others.

      The law has no special dispensation for crimes that might be "too disturbing" to prosecute. - Chris Floyd

      by felldestroyed on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:11:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why is Equality such a difficult concept? (6+ / 0-)

                                                         SOMEDAY
                                                           SOON
                                                        EVERYONE
                                                            WILL
                                                           ENJOY
                                                         EQUALITY

    •  No patience on denied/unequal rights! (10+ / 0-)

      Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

      by DefendOurConstitution on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:36:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  There are some ignorant people (21+ / 0-)

      who feel that gays and their sympathizers aren't willing to get beat and die a la the civil rights struggle (which contrary to popular opinion is still going on). It was one of, if not THE dumbest sentiment I've heard about this.

      •  It's also people who believe there's only so much (18+ / 0-)

        pie to go around, and they're acting like they're afraid they won't get theirs (i.e. healthcare) as long as we're making so much noise.

        On a related diary last night, there were people characterizing us as whiny little children "who have to have their shit NOW!" and that we're throwing the equivalent of a temper-tantrum because, as they see it, Obama's not moving fast enough for us.

        I was amazed. Still am.

        Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

        by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:45:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Unlike being called a "Good German" (0+ / 0-)

          Which is completely fair isn't it?

          Both sides could probably choose better words I think.

        •  it's not that the pie is limited (0+ / 0-)

          so much as the hours in a day.

          egven if he had all the time in the world and weren't meeting with foreign leaders, dealing with guantanomo, the economy, health care, iraq, etc., obama cannot wave a magic wand and make DOMA and DADT disappear.  they are federal law.

          what exactly is expected of obama here?

          New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

          by Cedwyn on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:42:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That WAS the pie I was referring to! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Killer of Sacred Cows

            What do we expect? We expect him to follow-through on his promises. We have been cutting him slack since day-one and only got truly riled-up when HIS Dept of Justice released that inflamatory brief in defense of a law that he CLAIMS he and his administration are against. Because the brief didn't have to be worded anything CLOSE to the way it was, it constitutes a very real slap in the face to our community. It's one thing to have to keep waiting, it's a whole 'nother thing entirely to have a supposed "fierce advocate" show signs, like so many other politicians before him, that we're nothing more than a political football to be played with and USED for his own benefit at will.

            As I've mentioned in comments that are likely WAAAY down-thread by now, many of us have seen this movie already and we know how it normally turns out for us in the end (and it ain't good). So we're not waiting for the end anymore, we're standing up NOW to demand some action on the very SPECIFIC PROMISES that were made to us, before the plot goes any further down this all-too-familiar road (how's that for really badly mixing metaphores?)

            Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

            by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:03:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  mixed metaphors are fun! (0+ / 0-)

              i'm curious, though.  do you see gay rights as being rolled back from their current point, as opposed to expanding?  does that really seem likely?

              New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

              by Cedwyn on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:08:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  How, exactly is that even relevant? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Killer of Sacred Cows

                Just because things aren't awful and we don't exactly have to fear for our very lives (at least not as much as we used to--don't kid yourself that people aren't still killed outright just for being gay in this country) has NOTHING to do with the discussion.

                The effects of these laws are still very repressive, they have VERY real impacts on our lives that are wrong, plain wrong, and we were promised action on them, not entire steps backwards (like the infamous DOMA brief). As I said, if the ball had been even started rolling by now, I'm pretty sure most of us would still be cutting lots of slack, even as military careers still get ruined by DADT, even as families continue to get torn apart by repressive and unfair immigration laws, even as I must enter into complicated and expensive contracts to try and approximate the 1,100+ rights and benefits to protect my family that are AUTOMATICALLY granted to anyone in an "opposite marriage" (not to mention that my family can often override my or my partner's wishes at almost any time because the contracts and protections only go so far).

                Yeah, there are only so many hours in the day, but we still deserve a few minutes of them, even with as much as there is on the plate to be dealt with, and we deserve them just as much as any other American. But we haven't been getting them. And we're getting tired of it.

                Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

                by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:19:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  it's not only relevant; it's everything (0+ / 0-)

                  when one is examining the idea of which issues need how much and what kind of effort/focus, which seems to go to the heart of the question here.  to my way of thinking, the thing that needs the most pushing and action and activism, etc, is the weakest.  

                  and i see the struggle for gay rights as all but won.  

                  so:  do you seriously, truthfully think gay rights are in any danger of backsliding?  is there any real possibility the legal climate for gay rights will worsen instead of expand?  i just don't think so.    

                  yannow?

                  New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

                  by Cedwyn on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:33:33 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  "i see the struggle for gay rights as all but won (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Predictor

                    Then you are not paying attention.

                    Not at all.

                    There is an art to teaching that is independent of the subject matter. - daveinojai

                    by Killer of Sacred Cows on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:42:18 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Just 'cause you THINK so, doesn't MAKE it so. (0+ / 0-)

                    It's probably going a bit too off-topic, but who'da thunk the Third Reich would ever actually try to exterminate an entire race of people in their midst?

                    So that REALLY is your argument: since things aren't really all that bad for you folks now, as far as I'm concerned, you can afford to wait while the things I think are important get to take center stage and you don't even deserve to have ANY of the multi-tasking time available until I get what I want?

                    You keep saying "I see" it this way, and "I just don't think so" but how is it that we should all accept YOUR perspective over the rest of ours? The battle is a LOT farther from being "won" than you seem to think. And I'm assuming, from how you phrase things, that you're not a LGBT person affected by these issues, personally, so the outsider-looking-in perspective is not entirely all that objective, I'd venture to say.

                    No, no, no. There's absolutely NO reason that ALL of the priorities can't be worked on together. Unless you simply cannot accept that, there's no basis for your argument.

                    Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

                    by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:43:34 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  okay, seriously (0+ / 0-)

                      answer the questions, please:

                      do you seriously, truthfully think gay rights are in any danger of backsliding?  is there any real possibility the legal climate for gay rights will worsen instead of improve?

                      New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

                      by Cedwyn on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:50:26 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Umm, no, I refuse. (0+ / 0-)

                        Sorry, but there's no point in playing that game, and honestly, others HAVE adequately answered the question for you.

                        There is an injustice. It is real. It affects people's lives in very serious ways. It needs to be addressed. Obama has PROMISED to address it but instead we get a slap in the face from his DOJ and a dog-and-pony STUNT last night where he takes credit for policies for Federal employees that have existed since Clinton. It ain't right.

                        He COULD be taking steps to address these issues that would NOT be taking away from his attention to other matters (many of which have been spelled-out quite well in other comments down-thread from here). There are ALWAYS going to be other issues that will need his attention, there will never be a "good" time where nothing else is going on when FINALLY it will be OK with you and everyone else for him to do this. Your argument is moot.

                        Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

                        by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 06:00:23 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  YES. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Turkana, Predictor

                What was Prop 8, if not a rollback? What is what's going on in Arizona right now (attempting to remove domestic-partnership benefits) if not a rollback?

                What planet have you been living on?

                There is an art to teaching that is independent of the subject matter. - daveinojai

                by Killer of Sacred Cows on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:41:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  prop 8 was desperation, lies & distortion (0+ / 0-)

                  because the stakes were effin' huge.  the Mormon church has taken a drubbing over that whole thing, as have a lot of people who voted for prop 8.  the targeted in-state protests brought awareness to a lot of people.

                  much like oregon's measure 37, it didn't take long for people to realize they had been misled and shouldn't have voted for it.  and arizona's full of old people, but youth is on the side of gay rights.  california and oregon both have 2010 ballot measures in the works to repeal their gay marriage bans.

                  also, prop 8 has not, to my knowledge, yet been properly challenged on equal protection grounds.  given the CA supreme court's smackdown of the law against gay marriage, what do you think is the likely outcome, if that challenge happens?

                  same question for arizona - what do you think the likely outcome/vector moment for the movement is?

                  how about the tremendous victory in NH, where it was legislated onto the books?

                  New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

                  by Cedwyn on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 06:31:29 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And the religious-right is mounting a referrendum (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Turkana

                    on it to try and take it OFF the books again. They've hired the SAME P.R. firm to run this campaign that ran the CA Prop 8 campaign, with the same connections to Mormon deep pockets.

                    If such referenda (sp?) can be lost in Fla, CA, and other states as recently as last year, how can it be assumed that the battle for gay rights is "won" and that there will never be any roll-back from what we have gained so far?

                    At BEST saying that we've "won" at this point is rose-tinted wishful thinking. At worst, quite possibly delusional.

                    And it STILL misses the point. There IS no valid reason that we SHOULD have to wait any longer. There ARE steps that can be taken by our POTUS whom WE elected. We may not get DOMA or DADT overturned right away, but as mentioned down-thread, there ARE things that he can easily do that would help mitigate these situations. AND he can still continue to work on health care at the same time. And I would want him to. I also want a DECENT re-vamp of the healthcare system probably as much as you do. He CAN do both. Yes he can.

                    Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

                    by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 07:41:03 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Aw, crap. I did get carried away over one thing. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Turkana

                      I got NH and Maine mixed-up. I apologize. The recall effort is going on in Maine. Sorry. Not that it makes any difference to my point (and I do have one--thank you Ellen).

                      Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

                      by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 08:37:30 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  should this...should that (0+ / 0-)

                      "should" and $1.50 might get you a cup of coffee.  of much more concern is what is possible, legally, logistically, realistically possible.

                      walk us through the game plan of how we all wake up next week to full gay rights and federal protections, please.  i'm all ears.

                      again, do you honestly expect that the political climate for gay rights will actually worsen?  is that a real danger, with the youth vote pretty solid for gay rights?

                      that is what makes it won.  maybe not today or tomorrow officially, but it's won, man.  

                      New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

                      by Cedwyn on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 06:28:15 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Again, it's irrelevant no matter how many times (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Turkana

                        you insist on asking the question.

                        What is this, Fox News, where if something is repeated often enough it becomes a valid part of the discussion just because they think it should?

                        Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

                        by JWSwift on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 07:16:56 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

      •  Coz we haven't been getting beaten, or dying.... (3+ / 0-)

        Never mind that in the past 40 years, over 2000 LGBTs have been murdered for being LGBT.  That's almost one a week, but I guess that's not enough of us yet.  It helps if each one of those is portrayed as a single incident, and not as part of an ongoing, Klan-like campaign of terror.  That doesn't even count all of the LGBTs who've been targets of non-fatal violence.

        But hey, we're not getting beaten or dying or anything like that....

        •  and how many americans die every week, (0+ / 0-)

          gay and straight, most of them children, for lack of basic preventive health care?

          that's a dangerous game to start playing.

          New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

          by Cedwyn on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:43:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So, which are you saying is worse? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Turkana, Killer of Sacred Cows

            How do you judge who deserves his time? By what rules are we supposed to play?

            Does the fact that there are other issues that need to be addressed justify having our issues left at the back of the bus?

            Are you implying that this is supposed to be decided purely by numbers? In fact, that's one of the very frustrations that have been boiling beneath the surface for so long: because we ARE a fairly small minority, we don't have the numbers it takes to impose any leverage, to win popular votes that decide the fate of our very civil rights, etc. How much more appeasing will be required before we find enough favor with the majority to be heard and have our issues addressed?

            Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

            by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:09:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  i was't saying either is worse, (0+ / 0-)

              although i do suspect that more people die for lack of insurance than for being gay.

              anyhoo, my point was entirely that it is not a good path to go down to start with the "how many gays have to die" kind of stuff in making arguments for the urgency of a cause.

              New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

              by Cedwyn on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:57:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't see much consistency in your point then. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Turkana

                Because you WERE originally framing your argument as "this issue is worse and/or deserves more attention than your issue" and bringing-up the numbers as a valid part of your argument by comparing the number of people who die from lack of health care to the number of people who die over being gay.

                How else were we SUPPOSED to take it?

                Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

                by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 06:03:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  someone mentioned (0+ / 0-)

                  the number of gays killed.  i pointed out that that was kind of a silly argument to push, as it could be twisted in support of anything.

                  THAT'S how you're supposed to take it.

                  New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

                  by Cedwyn on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 06:34:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Sorry our mere lives are a "silly argument." (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Turkana
                    •  way to prove my point (0+ / 0-)

                      jesus h. christ.

                      New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

                      by Cedwyn on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 06:21:41 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  see, that's just it (0+ / 0-)

                        my comment had nothing to do with lives, gay or otherwise, lost or not.  lives were not the point of my comment.  

                        my point was merely that it's not a sound argument to be putting forth, as i am pretty sure that the lack of health insurance kills more people regularly than the lack of full gay rights does.

                        do you truly not get that?  do you honestly think my comment was in any way about gay people or their lives?  that i was calling the loss of gay lives silly?  is that truly your earnest reading of my comment?

                        New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

                        by Cedwyn on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 06:36:17 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Sure seems that enough people read it that way. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Turkana

                          I fail to see how beating the rest of us over the head because you couldn't make yourself clear in the first place is very productive. (If that IS what you originally meant. I STILL claim it didn't sound like it.)

                          Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

                          by JWSwift on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 07:19:26 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  oh please (0+ / 0-)

                            the entire point of this discussion is a question of urgency, yes?  given that context, only someone singularly focused to the point of myopia would take my comment the way you have convinced yourself it was meant.  here is what i said:

                             and how many americans die every week, gay and straight, most of them children, for lack of basic preventive health care?

                            that's a dangerous game to start playing.

                            then i further clarified with this:

                            i was't saying either is worse, although i do suspect that more people die for lack of insurance than for being gay.

                            anyhoo, my point was entirely that it is not a good path to go down to start with the "how many gays have to die" kind of stuff in making arguments for the urgency of a cause.

                            apparently, even that didn't get through, so i broke it down further still:

                             someone mentioned the number of gays killed.  i pointed out that that was kind of a silly argument to push, as it could be twisted in support of anything.

                            THAT'S how you're supposed to take it.

                            if the plain meaning of those comments isn't obvious, the inadequacy is yours.  for the, hopefully, last time:

                            my comment was a criticism against the folly of arguing the urgency of a cause by citing numbers of deaths.  it lends no unique credibility to an argument for urgency; supporters of other causes can trot theirs out too.  and many of those other causes would roundly trump gay rights in that suit.  

                            it's a weak argument and debate tactic and that was the whole of my point.  good god.  please just don't respond if you're just going to keep being willfully obtuse.  

                            New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

                            by Cedwyn on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 08:32:22 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  "Willfully obtuse"? Funny YOU should mention that (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Turkana

                            Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

                            by JWSwift on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 02:37:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks, Turkana. It is infuriating to be told (18+ / 0-)

      in no uncertain terms by people supposedly on our side that we need to "take one for the team," that we need to wait - and wait some more. And wait, because the time isn't right. Because it might distract from more pressing needs. Well I'm sick to fucking death of being told to wait. I'm sick up to my fucking gay eyeballs of being told to wait. I'm 52 years old and I have been waiting my entire fucking life. NO MORE!

      They tortured people to get a false confession of a link between Saddam and 9-11. Investigate. Prosecute. Incarcerate.

      by Rumarhazzit on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:44:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You don't have to wait patiently, but you have to (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cedwyn, Rumarhazzit, jennyL

        wait. Change is slow.

        Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat decades ago, and I'm not sure African Americans feel like they are treated equally in this society even today.

        It takes generations for acceptance to happen. In October I was asked by a 70-year-old man with genuine sincerity if I truly believed this country would "elect a colored for president."

        Legally, the rights should be yours NOW. Logically, it will take time. That isn't right, but it is reality. Which bites.

        "Sean Hannity...he's the guy who put the 'a' in moron" - Jed Lewison

        by voracious on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:04:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But the waiting is a by-product, not a strategy. (16+ / 0-)

          Fighting for equality for all Americans is a struggle that will take time to bear its full fruit, yes.

          But that fruit will only come at all if the fight begins now, in earnest, and never lets up.

          If we wait, there will be nothing, or worse than nothing, as in the Smelt brief.

          Screw "Hope" and "Change." Give me Determination and Improvement.

          by khereva on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:11:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  don't you see? (0+ / 0-)

            the fight's been won.  or do you seriously, honestly foresee a future in which the number of states adopting gay rights goes backwards?  can you honestly say you expect things to get worse for gay rights?

            i understand how it's important to guard against complacency and only federal legislation will truly seal the deal.  but let's be honest here...as soon as the codgers die off, the issue of gay rights will cease to exist.

            New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

            by Cedwyn on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:48:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  found you here (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Cedwyn

              my diary is up re Oregon/Wyden

            •  Really? Then your definition of "won" must be (3+ / 0-)

              VERY different from the one I see in Webster's.

              Just because the clock may not roll backwards, does NOT even come close to equating to the fight being "won". Furthermore, all it took was a change in administration from Clinton to Bush, and the clock DID roll back by quite a bit. Don't think it can't happen again.

              We continue to get put-off, left on the back-burner, etc. There may be good intentions behind them, but you know what road is paved with those...

              Besides, the rights we're winning at the state level are largely symbolic. We may be able to get a valid marriage license, for example, in a few states, but just what does that give us? The vast, VAST majority of those 1,100+ rights and benefits that are automatically granted with a marriage license to a man and a woman are granted at the federal level, and as long as DOMA exists, they will continue to be denied to us, whether we can get married or not.

              Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

              by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:27:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  and the youth bloc? (0+ / 0-)

                the demographic which supports gay rights, like 70% or something?  the likelihood that gay rights will not be expanded is precisely zilch.

                New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

                by Cedwyn on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 07:02:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  We hope so. Ain't guaranteed 'til it's in writing (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Turkana

                  And it STILL doesn't excuse the continued injustices being allowed during our generation. There are still real lives being affected TODAY. Careers ruined, families torn apart, kids feeling hopeless and attempting suicide, people attacked and killed without hate crimes legislation to send a message that it won't be tolerated, etc., etc.  All this going on and we're supposed to be OK with it because EVENTUALLY we SHOULD get equal rights, MAYBE???

                  No, STILL wrong answer, sorry.

                  Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

                  by JWSwift on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 07:29:08 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  changing the laws (0+ / 0-)

                    isn't going to make everything great for gay people.  there will still be confusion.  there will still be fear.  there will still be feelings of isolation.  intolerant families will be no less ruined by a coming out with full gay rights in effect.

                    please explain, specifically, logistically, legally what you wish to see done.  what are the steps that get you where you want to be?

                    New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

                    by Cedwyn on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 08:13:01 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That's fine, you keep holding on to your point (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Turkana

                      and take it right to your grave. Obviously it's embedded so deeply it would require serious invasive surgury to remove.

                      If that's REALLY your point, then let's abolish all of the civil rights laws, since they don't do any good. As long as we're going to be completely fair about it and abolish them all, (not leave it the way it is where some people DO have their rights and some don't) then I'd be fine with it. Let's see just how wonderful things remain then.

                      And as to your last point, I have repeatedly said that others have explained a number of things that Obama needs to do down-thread and to whatever degree it's legal, I would agree he should do them. Many of them should be pretty darn simple (like opening his mouth and making a statement about what he does and doesn't intend to do, or making a statment about whether he does or doesn't agree with the brief that came out of HIS Dept. of Justice, etc.) and would not take away from all those other tasks that you seem to think are so much more important than working on equal rights for everyone in this country. I'm not going to spell them all out for you here just because you keep insisting on asking. Go read them for yourself.

                      Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

                      by JWSwift on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 02:35:55 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  Hasn't that actually already happened? Cali? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Turkana

              And in fact, the REASON it happened in California was precisely the naive belief that the fight was already won.

              Screw "Hope" and "Change." Give me Determination and Improvement.

              by khereva on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 05:21:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  You have to wait. Change is slow. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Killer of Sacred Cows

          You might have to wait till something gets changed, but you sure as hell don't have to wait on working to change it. That's what some around here are telling others to do.

          If it takes 183 times to make it work, the ticking time bomb will already have exploded by then.

          by William Domingo on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:02:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Right on! (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Turkana, Rumarhazzit, Predictor, kyril

        to use an old phrase.

        Pain shared is lessened, joy shared, increased. Spider Robinson

        by plf515 on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:50:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  To answer your question (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mother of Zeus

      Should the GLBT Community Should Be Patient. Like The Iranians.

      My answer is of course no, we should not sit on the sidelines. I don't see anyone doing that or saying we ought to. What we should not do is engage in self defeating behavior or do things that would undermine our objectives. We should be smart about it.

      It's about framing. I'm a Minnesotan and have been denied constitutionally mandated representation for months. Should I be patient? Well that's the wrong question isn't it? I should probably wait for the legal process to work before rioting in the streets shouldn't I?

      •  problem is... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Killer of Sacred Cows, kyril

        ...at least in California, the "legal" process has worked itself out, for the most part.

        Live from the ochlocracy of California.

        by Attorney at Arms on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:26:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Then you should be on the ground (0+ / 0-)

          changing hearts and minds. Unless the voting for prop 8 was stolen in some way I would think that a majority saying no would mean I need to do more work.

          But I thought this was about Obama and DADT and Doma anyway. I that case I'd say yeah, we need to get Franken seated so we have the 60 votes to end filibuster. Pulling the DADT trigger now would be handing the GOP a bat and saying "Go ahead, beat the living crap out of me with it". Unless you're into that, my guess is it's an undesirable outcome.

      •  How long to wait? (3+ / 0-)

        Until we're all dead?
        Until all our children are dead?

        HOW LONG?

        The legal process needs a PUSH.  

        Pain shared is lessened, joy shared, increased. Spider Robinson

        by plf515 on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:51:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Perhaps you missed the part (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cedwyn, bvig

          Where I said quote:

          "no, we should not sit on the sidelines"

          Did you miss that? Again, the question is improperly framed. So the correct frame should be "What can I do?" rather than "Why isn't Obama doing X?" Is that more understandable?

          In every cry of every man/In every infant's cry of fear/In every voice, in every ban/The mind-forged manacles I hear.

          by MnplsLiberal on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:07:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Rec'd and tipped just for the title. n/t (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Turkana, Killer of Sacred Cows, kyril

      Live from the ochlocracy of California.

      by Attorney at Arms on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:25:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's not even that good. (0+ / 0-)

      Try to imagine what it's like not being able to marry the adult with whom you share a mutual love.

      There's love in our society?  Mostly it seems like a consumer wasteland.  Oh I know.  My parents love me!  Yeah, that's it.

      Try to imagine what it's like to not be able to share your medical benefits with that person.

      What medical benefits?

      Try to imagine what it's like not to be able to share retirement benefits with that person.

      What retirement benefits?

      "You must do what you feel is right, of course" -- Obi-Wan Kenobi, in Episode IV

      by Cassiodorus on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:33:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  what evidence? (0+ / 0-)

      you make a claim and yet don't back it up, what evidence is there?

      A song about life
      Why aren't you more like Gandhi? Why aren't I?

      by drache on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:10:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Spot on T. (55+ / 0-)

    This is exactly what we need to focus on. It is not a minority issue, it is an American issue. When one is denied rights all are at risk. Just because it does not feel like it does not make it less true.

    Can you help the Dog get a Netroots Scholarship? -6.25, -6.10

    by Something the Dog Said on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 01:51:07 PM PDT

  •  Do you hear the people sing, singing the songs of (23+ / 0-)

    angry men!!!

    Fight back!

    Act UP!

    Let's go!

    Stonewall was a RIOT!

    by ExStr8 on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 01:52:48 PM PDT

  •  Patient for a short time (6+ / 0-)

    I do agree that it's been a hell of a first five months. The economy, challenges from the international area, and sulking Republicans created a perfect storm.

    But we've all watched some ominous signs--lack of bold, independent action on DADT and some really stupid legal pleadings.

    I do believe progressives should be patient. I believe that Obama would like the core of new legislation to come from the foot-dragging pentagon, rather than just from Congress.

    But it must be this year, not next--and realistically, that means this summer.

    Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

    by MrMichaelMT on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 01:57:10 PM PDT

    •  "short time" (7+ / 0-)

      I don't believe many of us have been attempting to be patient for five months.  Many of us have been attempting to be patient for decades.

      It's easy to understand here why folks might take LGBT anger as being "all about Obama".  It's not, although he has a great deal more power to exercise on our behalf than he chooses to use.  He, and his evasions of questions of LGBT rights, provided the opportunity for anger to swell, and for that opportunity I am greatly appreciative.

      But it's not just about this President, and it's not even primarily about this president.  It's about this country getting it's s**t together and living up to its ideals, living up to Equal Protection.  And those of us who have been waiting for that have been waiting a lot longer than five months.

      •  so a few more won't hurt you? (0+ / 0-)

        the greatest threat to america is its sense of exceptionalism.

        by SeanF on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:46:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Would YOU be willing to accept having your rights (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil, khereva

          taken away for the same length of time that you suggest we wait?

          Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

          by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:59:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  already happened (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jennyL

            as I'm part of said group. In my personal timeline, I'm giving Team-O through the next legislative session to show some real movement. I think it's great to make noises now to pave the way. But I'm not ready to scream "liar!!!" quite yet, as I have a major crush on O for what he's doing right.

            the greatest threat to america is its sense of exceptionalism.

            by SeanF on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:05:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  next session??? (0+ / 0-)

              You do realize that next year is an election year and no real legislation is going to happen.  If it doesn't happen in THIS session, it won't happen until after the next Presidential election.  So you're telling me that GLBT rights won't be worked on until a possible 2nd Presidential term?  

              (Insert expletive laden invective)

              --Country before party--

              by chipoliwog on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:40:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  OK, so you're not on the bandwagon with us (0+ / 0-)

              and ARE willing to wait. Fine for you. Please don't get in the way of the rest of us who've seen this movie before and are familiar with how it usually ends. We choose not to let it get to that point, if we can, and it will be a difficult enough task without having people from our own camp dragging us down. Thanks.

              Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

              by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:55:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not as upset with President Obama ... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        khereva, jennyL

        ... as I'm upset with the entire closed culture of D.C. Democrats who are still locked in 1996.  If Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, or Dick Cheney sneezes, they all run out for flu shots.  Just today I got an email from the DNC asking me to donate money so they can "push back" against Gingrich, Limbaugh, and Cheney.  They got a blistering reply to the effect of "I don't give a rat's ass what Newt, Rush, or Dick has to say about anything, and neither do most Americans.  Turn off cable news and talk to the American people."

        The D.C. Democrats seem to think the guests on CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, etc. are a representative sample of the American people.  If conservatives outnumber progressives by 3:2 on the cable chatter channels, the D.C. Democrats assume we're still a "center-right nation."

        I.  Call.  BULLSHIT.

        The D.C. Democrats need to be less worried about what Newt, Rush, or Dick said yesterday on some cable chatter channel, and more worried about the American people.  Or they'll soon find themselves the ex-D.C. Democrats.

    •  The legal stuff has been disturbing at best. (0+ / 0-)

      Motion to dismiss in Jewel v. NSA.
      Brief in Smelt.
      Current motions in Rendition cases arguing that to allow those kidnapped and tortured by our government to sue would jeopardize state secrets.
      Eric Holder's refusal to admit that illegal surveillance is in fact illegal.

      This administration's legal actions have not budged an inch from the days of the usurpation, and have in fact worked hard to endorse its worst evils by a consistent refusal to punish them.

      Screw "Hope" and "Change." Give me Determination and Improvement.

      by khereva on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:07:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Great diary...thanks! n/t (21+ / 0-)

    Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man" Loving v. Virginia

    by KentuckyKat on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 01:59:06 PM PDT

  •  Well, of course democracy requires patience (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SeanF, askew, Argyrios, sam storm, sillycilla

    in the sense that all constitutional systems require patience from the people who lost the last round.  Prop 8 passed in a fair vote.  DOMA was passed by the legimate congress.  State laws against same sex marriage, passed by duly elected representatives or voters.  

    These democratic processes mean that for some discrete chunk of time, somebody is waiting for it to be over or for the next at-bats.  Someone's waiting for Obama to NOT be president just as much as someone is waiting for a chance to repeal Prop 8.

    Iran is different.  There, it's the WINNERS who are losing patience.  Of course THEY arne't required to have patience.  Not even in the Iranian consitutional system.

    "Newt's all for new ideas. He doesn't HAVE any. He's just FOR them."--Bob Dole.

    by Inland on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 01:59:44 PM PDT

  •  I've been waiting, and waiting, and waiting... (23+ / 0-)

    Don't forget, President Bill Clinton did this to the GLBT community, too.  That was when I was a young pup in college.

    Now I'm almost twice as old, and the Democratic Party and "progressives" continue the same song and dance routine.  I'm tired of it.  I was tired of it when Clinton did it, and I'm REALLY tired of it now.

  •  Spot On Turkana! (6+ / 0-)

    Since I am a straight, white male I will take your theme in another direction:
    "Sorry to hear you didn't get that data entry job because of those two joints you smoked last weekend. We'll have sensible, progressive drug policies in this country one day soon...just be patient."
    Not to compare my example to Iran and GLBT equal rights but just my two cents from my own perspective on how many different ways a whole lot of people in this world are getting screwed all of the time by a repressive minority.
    When will it end?
    ;-(>

    "We're right in the middle of a fucking reptile zoo! And somebody's giving booze to these goddamn things!"-Hunter S. Thompson ;-)>

    by rogerdaddy on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:04:35 PM PDT

  •  3 Democratic Presidents in the last 40 years and (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    askew, chrismorgan, iluvatar

    people wonder why... No one is trying to suppress your voices on GLBT rights.. By all means keep speaking up and keep putting up the pressure but it's the name calling and underming the President because things aren't happening as you would like it at the moment. Reality is that NOBODY gets everything they desire, with no delay, effort or struggle.

    "Love the life you live. Live the life you love."- Bob Marley

    by sillycilla on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:06:18 PM PDT

  •  I'm for civility, but the hell with "patience" -- (26+ / 0-)

    it's usually meant (in politics) to tell others to shut up and accept the status quo.

  •  Ya know (13+ / 0-)

    it really pissed me off to see Obama said the Iranians deserved respect and encouragement for their sturggle when a few days earlier, the DOJ had just disrepsected us in the most vile manner.

    So Iranians a half a world away deserve what American GLBT citizens do not?

    In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is freedom, in water there is bacteria. Ben Franklin

    by nokkonwud on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:12:30 PM PDT

  •  Well at least we won't (13+ / 0-)

    have to spend arguing about what color to name this revolution, but there is likely to be some disagreement about accessories.

  •  For all the straight folks out there saying (26+ / 0-)

    "Be patient," etc., I just have one request:

    Put yourselves in the shoes of the GLBT folks.

    Imagine if you were madly in love. It's finally The Right Person - you know, the one you want to be with forever.

    But nope, you can't get married. Hell, you can't openly serve in the military.  According to the DoJ, you're pretty much just flat out unequal.  You're less of a person, really.

    Think about that before you say "be patient". Empathy is the key.

    •  Can't married, have to wait on pins and needles (6+ / 0-)

      to see if they can even stay in the country since they're here on a limited visa and you can't sponsor them for citizenship.

      Hari Seldon 2012 -8.25, -6.25

      by smellybeast on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:30:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The thing is ... (9+ / 0-)

      ... I'm a straight, middle-class, educated white male living the most conservative lifestyle one could imagine.  In no way am I oppressed or have faced oppression for who or what I am.

      Nevertheless, the withholding of protection and civil rights from a group of fellow Citizens offends me in ways I can't fully express.  It is unAmerican and inhuman.  That there is no rhyme or reason to it, beyond some bigots rationalization, adds insult to injury.

      LGBT rights have become something of a litmus test for me.  If you can't do what is right when it is easy, how can you when it is hard?

      Justice deferred is justice denied. -MLK

      by zephron on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:32:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Bayard Rustin, organizer of the '63 March (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tonedevil, zephron, khereva

        said the same thing in 1987:

        Twenty-five, thirty years ago, the barometer of human rights in the United States were black people. That is no longer true. The barometer for judging the character of people in regard to human rights is now those who consider themselves gay, homosexual, or lesbian.

        "So it was OK to waterboard a guy over 80 times but God forbid the guy who could understand what that prick was saying has a boyfriend."--Jon Stewart

        by craigkg on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:49:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It doesn't even require getting to that point (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Plutonium Page, Tonedevil, zephron

      I don't need to want to get married or be in the military to understand and feel what it means not to be allowed to.

      Ok, so I read the polls.

      by andgarden on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:44:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And you know it is MORE than just getting married (5+ / 0-)

      My mother has lived with her lesbian partner for 27 years.  They have built a life together in every sense.   They are both retired and they depend on their Social Security checks -- both of them.  

      But there are some health issues.  And sooner or later, one of them is going to pass away before the other one does.   (My grandmother lived to be 101 and never took a medication in her life.  So we might be looking at another 25 years of retirement.)  

      In this case, the survivor will get NOTHING to replace the lost income of her partner.  The Federal Government does not extend social security benefits to Same Sex couples... no matter how long they have lived together or what they have been through.  

      But a straight couple, married for a fraction of the time would get the other's social security benefit as the survivor.  

      So it comes down to a FINANCIAL ISSUE, as well as one of the heart.  

      I have no patience for those who say "wait."  Wait?  For what?  If my mother's partner dies in 2 1/2 years (not at all unlikely)  and Obama gets off his ass about this in 3 years... are they going to retroactively give my mother all those lost SS checks?   For that matter, would they just reinstate her and start giving her her partners checks?  

      No.  Of course not.   That is just one reason the DOMA DOJ crap about "saving money" angers me.  Sure it saves money.  Okay, save more.  Cut all SS benefits for married people.  See how that flies with the straight community.  

      And yes, yes I realize that congress is involved.  But they are looking for leadership on this... and cover.   Obama could be using his great oratory skills to share with America just exactly why (and there are many reasons) it is unfair to treat the LGBT community as second-class citizens.  

      And this scenario -- and others even more compelling -- are being played out thousands and thousands of times across this country.  

      The time to STOP CRAPPING on us is NOW!

      •  And not just finances, either! (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cassidy3, ruscle, m00finsan

        There are over 1,100+ rights and benefits AUTOMATICALLY granted to married couples the moment they get that marriage license and tie the knot (even if it's NOT in a church--imagine that, you STILL get ALL the same rights and benefits even WITHOUT the blessing of the Pope or anybody else! But, I digress...)

        And nearly ALL of them are EXPLICITLY denied to us because of DOMA.

        Does it begin to sink-in WHY we're impatient?

        Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

        by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:29:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  At the fundamental level... (5+ / 0-)

    ...these are your rights and no person has any moral claim to preventing or delaying you from asserting them.

    First principles come first.

    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

    by Jay Elias on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:17:34 PM PDT

    •  how does one (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      andgarden, Jay Elias

      assert the right to get medical benefits?

      btw- great to "see" you!

      •  Great to see you too.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Turkana

        ...in my opinion, by any means necessary, of course.  Whatever works.

        Morally, I believe that you have a fundamental right to do violence to those preventing you from asserting your rights.  Of course, in almost all cases, that is counterproductive, so the issue is moot.

        If I knew the foolproof plan to successfully assert the rights of GLBT individuals in the United States, I certainly would tell you.  I think there are important debates to be had on how to affect change, on both the social and political level.  My inclination is to believe that it will end up being some combination of sugar and spice.  But everyone needs to bear in mind that nothing less than the free and full exercise of the rights of sovereign citizens is acceptable, ever, under any circumstances.  Progress towards that goal is progress, yes.  But first principles remain first; all citizens of this nation are sovereign and free from the oppression of the state.  And that's the only conclusion I find morally coherent to take.

        The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

        by Jay Elias on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:26:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  without DOMA (0+ / 0-)

        a gay married couple could file for family coverage in insurance for instance.

  •  Absurd comparison (4+ / 0-)

    And GLBT are a small minority. You want to go demonstrate and set fires?? That will really win allies and support.If you think the American people care more about gay marriage than having a job or health care, think again.

    •  Your comparison is, indeed, absurd. (13+ / 0-)

      Turkana wasn't talking about mass street marches or fire-setting.  Surely you know that.  

    •  yes (12+ / 0-)

      because they're minorities, they don't have the same rights. thank you.

    •  Care to assign a company or community tag (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Turkana, Something the Dog Said

      to that comment?

      So undesirable people and their money know where not to go, and to tell others of "their kind" not to visit?

    •  A small minority like African Americans. (6+ / 0-)

      After all, they each make up just about 10% of the population.  Who cares about the separate drinking fountains?

      Justice deferred is justice denied. -MLK

      by zephron on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:37:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  ya know what (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Torta, Argyrios, iluvatar

        god that makes me crazy.  I could go on a whole historical rant right now, but go watch Milk again (or better yet, read a great biography) and see how people chose only chose to be out as long as they weren't tainted with the harder parts of the gay.  Black people never really had that option during segregation and slavery, so please, let's just stop with that.    

        Two civil rights movements, not really the same.  

        FTR:  I'm a lesbian.  I'm black.  I'm a lawyer.

        We STILL need protections so we don't get kicked out of our homes, fired from our jobs, or removed from our apartments.  We don't even have THESE rights, as individual gays.  

        We should be able to visit our partners in the hospital and inherit when they die.  We should be able to have our partners join us in the countries of our choice.  Yeah, we should.  I am not AGAINST that. That being said.  

        Not all LGBT people give a shit about gay marriage.  I, for one, understand that rights should be extended to all people, but I'm too busy sitting on the board of an organization for young LGBT people of color who are still battling to have PUBLIC SPACE ON THE PIERS IN NYC so they can meet other people like themselves and stop committing suicide.  I'm still representing clients who are being gang-raped and sentenced to crazy sentences because they are lesbians.

        I am so so sick to death of the "if we get married everything will be just fine" meme.  It won't be. There is so much other crap facing our community and suddenly if we can't be in the NY Times announcing our engagement the entire world will fall apart.

        We managed to make amazing family and vibrant community and love each other and MAKE IT WORK for years and years and years.  And who we are (and were) wasn't any less important.  

        Let's get our basic rights.  If for you, that means getting gay married, fine.  but there are a lot of people for whom marriage is the LAST thing on their minds.  Survival is still first on the list.  

        •  Fine. Let's compare gay rights... (0+ / 0-)

          ...to the experience of Jews in Europe.  They had a choice in the matter, after all: they could convert.  

          And it isn't just about marriage; it's also about the rights that go along with marriage, it's about the ability of the government to sanction sexual orientation discrimination.  

          I'm not for tabling ENDA until this issue is resolved, but let's understand that this is a major issue because of what it says about our relationship (or lack thereof) to the state.

          What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

          by Alec82 on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:04:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Gay Rights ARE civil rights. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Alec82

          And gays were being oppressed when African Race Slavery was nary a gleam in a Cardinal's eye.

          Honestly, the oneupmanship on owning civil rights is nothing less than sickening.

          Freedom and Justice are not a zero fucking sum game.

          It's not just marriage, but marriage is indeed a benchmark.

          Full equality for all Americans, now, is the 21st century's Civil Rights struggle.

          Screw "Hope" and "Change." Give me Determination and Improvement.

          by khereva on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:23:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Beautifully said .. (0+ / 0-)

          I'm not gay but I live immediately adjacent to a predominantly gay community, some people might have heard of the Castro district in San Francisco, and have a number of friends in that community, and by and large they are all dumbfounded by the anger being spewed .. in their name .. by persons affiliated with the gay rights movement.

          I'll acknowledge that these friends by virtue of living in San Francisco and by virtue of all being exceptionally bright, educated and generally well off might not be facing some of the same struggles than so many here are who are shrieking about the evils of the Obama administration.  But I am still amazed at the number of people who don't understand that there is an economic meltdown taking place that is hitting all of us, that there is transformative health care reform that is in the process of being scuttled because of opposition antics, that energy policy and climate change and a war on two fronts and a host of other issue are vying for political action .. and that each issue risks stealing just that much political clout from pursuing the next.

          And it amazes me further how many people have been citing the horrible prejudice they have been subjected to in places like Kentucky and Oklahoma .. and act as if some nice words from Obama .. or even the repal of DOMA is suddenly going to make everything alright.  There is a fundamental misconception here, not only about national priorities, but about the real world efficacy of action at a national level.  Of course DOMA should be repealed, as well as DADT  but the supposition that the GLBT community is "tired of waiting" .. as if those legislative actions all of a sudden make everything okay is preposterous.

          I have tremendous sympathy and support for the gay rights movement but little sympathy at all for the angry demonstration of political self-righteousness demonstrated on a daily basis now here at dKos.

          •  Huh? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Turkana

            I've waited 10 years for DOMA to be repealed because it impacts me every day.
            I'm not asking for Kentucky to be a "rainbow grass" state. I'm simply asking that I don't have to pay vastly more sums of money to the government because legislation says I have to, in contrast to my straight married neighbors.

        •  I think you missed my point. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Turkana

          It was that LGBTs are about the same size minority as African Americans.  So, if somebody were to say "they're such a small minority they don't matter" I wonder if they would say that about the black community.  Somehow I doubt it.  Of course, a claim to equal rights isn't based upon the size of one's community, but by one's humanity.

          On the other hand, who said that marriage equality was it?  Frankly, I think your exasperation is misplaced.

          Justice deferred is justice denied. -MLK

          by zephron on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 06:21:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  well (0+ / 0-)

            i didn't miss your point, actually, i just think relatively speaking, the situation of black people (in the north and south) in the '50s and the 60s were 180 degrees different from anything that the gay community is dealing with today.  I think our civil rights movement was must more of one in '69.  This "civil rights" movement amounts to "gimme now!" and i don't doubt that some of what is being asked for is legit, but I, personally, feel that the comparison of LGBT folks to the Iranian people in the depth of struggle that is going on right now is prepostorous.  And a wee bit offensive.  

            i have yet to hear (and i am SO willing to be proven wrong on this, I hope I am) that in all of these pleas for "why i need to be gay married" (from rallies to whatever) a plea for protection for gay youth in schools and gay youth kicked out of their homes.  I have yet to hear a plea and action for tolerance of gays from around the world who are subjected to the most unbearable homophobia.  

            i need to be married so i can pay less in taxes?  

            come on.  

            my relationship is beautiful and wonderful and i don't need the state to make it any more so.  

            i get that there are people who want that and need that.  but the idea that Obama is satan incarnate because this isn't his main priority?  given all that is going on in the world?

            and also, where was everyone who is here yelling and screaming about gay marriage when Congress convened a hearing on June 3 about the Uniting American Families Act?  For the first time in history, a watershed for gay families...we have other work to do.  work in my opinion is just more pressing. period.  

    •  You mean there are no gay American (0+ / 0-)

      people?

    •  what a fucking asinine comment! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cassidy3, GayDemInRedDistrict

      Mr. President, I realize you've got a lot on your plate, but we've been starving at the back of the line. Please throw us a few crumbs like ending DADT & DO

      by tnichlsn on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:59:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  3-11% of electorate is small? (0+ / 0-)

      There are as many if not more GLBT persons than there are African-American persons. In some states, the margin of victory for Obama was smaller than the GLBT vote.

      You want to retract your comment?

      --Country before party--

      by chipoliwog on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:03:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  totally bogus comparison (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    askew, EntrWriter

    and why doesn't the LGBT community pressure congress?

    that's where it starts...Obama has to sign the bill that comes from there

    and believe me....I am aghast at the silence of the admin, but the last I want to see, is a presidential order that gets turned with every new admin....it's congress that we should be pressuring

    This year we can declare our independence...Barack Obama

    by PalGirl2008 on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:23:53 PM PDT

  •  Thanks for this, Turkana (5+ / 0-)

    I'm glad to hear that people are talking about these issues since I feel like LGBT people are often told by the majority "to wait" for civil rights.  Also, I'm glad to see that Obama is beginning to extend more benefits to federal employees (yes, it's a step in the right direction), but what we need is several more steps in the right direction. We need to keep this conversation going, and we need to build a progressive coalition that doesn't ostracize our straight allies. We'll get there soon, but we must remain active and engaged. Peace to you and everyone ~    

    Please support equality in California: http://www.couragecampaign.org

    by Curiosity on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:26:53 PM PDT

  •  This is a bit much. (5+ / 0-)

    Your cause is not advanced by comparing the right to enter a marriage contract or to serve openly in the armed forces with all the horrors of living in an oppressive theocracy.  I know that it's easy for me to say since I've already done the latter and only the rational preferences of women I date have prevented the former, but really try to keep a little perspective.  

    "They don't think it be like it is, but it do. " Oscar Gamble, circa 1980

    by Spider Stumbled on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:26:56 PM PDT

  •  The people who say (13+ / 0-)

    we should wait would be wise to consider volunteering to get divorced, pay individual taxes, avoid seeing their partners in the hospital, and stop accessing their 1,130 federal rights gained through marriage.

    Do that until glbt people have them too. After all, if we can wait, why can't you?

    "ENOUGH!" - President Barack Hussein Obama

    by indiemcemopants on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:27:00 PM PDT

  •  It's not even the issue of compromises (8+ / 0-)

    Compromises are both often neccessarry and often good.  But Obama really isn't compromising.  He's simply refusing to do anything.  He's not finding ways to expand the rights of gays and lesbians in any small ways.  He refuses to take any leadership whatsoever on any LGBT issues, even small ones.  While I appreciate the gesture of openly gay families being invited to the presidential easter egg hunt (and I'm not putting down on it, it was significant in many ways), that's not enough.  

    Here is a list of what Obama has refused to do:
    -Appoint an openly gay or lesbian cabinet secretary
    -Appoint an openly gay or lesbian judge to the federal courts (I'm not even talking SCOTUS here, not even an appellate court, but what about just district courts?)
    -Expand healthcare benefits to same sex couples who are federal employees (the current expansion is basically what Clinton had)
    -Repeal Don't Ask Don't Tell
    -Suspend military suspensions of openly gay servicemembers
    -Attempt to repeal DOMA
    -Push through the Matthew Shephard Act
    -Speak out publicly about his opposition to Prop 8
    -Sign any significant pro LGBT executive orders
    -Speak forcefully about support for any gay rights, even limited gay rights

    That's just a start.  But I think worse is that DOJ memo.  It doesn't just defend DOMA, it really savages gays and lesbians.  There are other ways to defend the bill and ways to attack its constitutionality in far more beneficial ways.

  •  Is that you Hoekstra? (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    askew, noabsolutes, Argyrios, iluvatar, Anak

    As a gay man, I think the comparison is ridiculous.

  •  I don't think (13+ / 0-)

    any individual should be patient when he/she does not have equal rights.  What I do see in Iran, is an immediate and overwhelming physical demonstration in the streets.  Part of me actually sees a benefit to shutting down cyber communication -- why?  because those folks are off their asses and in the street.

    What I would love to see here, which is not apparant to me, is an organization of massive rallies across the country by LGBT and folks like me -- heteros who can't comprehend the fucking stoopidity of politicians in D.C.  The intertoobz is great for information -- but guess why the Iranians are getting the photo-ops and sympathy of rational people.  They are visible, they are risking life and limb.  Granted, I didn't think these types of civil rights battles would still be fought today, but they must be.  Railing in anonymity on the intertoobz can definitely get folks riled up -- but get them riled up through organized protest.

  •  That fundraiser that Obama tried to save (14+ / 0-)

    yesterday by signing that memo is STILL falling apart. According to AmericaBlog, the Stonewall Dems aren't going either. Pretty soon it will just be Barney Frank, Tammy Baldwin, and Joe Biden left at this rate.

  •  Patience is skating on thin ice (6+ / 0-)

    any minute she is going to fall through.

    ;)

    +++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++--Hex[-4.88. -6.97]

    by LaFeminista on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:37:34 PM PDT

  •  i think one mistake is misidentifying the opponen (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ElsieElsie

    opponent. I don't think the real opponent is the GOP. I think it's the entrenched power structure that resists change because they are making gobs of money off the status quo. When that is challenged, they put immense pressure on the left and right. That power is real because many in congress know they will be run out of town or be seriously challenged if they go against it.

    So Obama's challenge isn't "knowing he won the election." Hi challenge is how do you uproot a gigantic self-obsessed orgy of profits, that controls most of washington?

    As far as the gay stuff, I don't question his motives. I question a couple tactics and some of the timing. Like DADT is a national security issue and we don't have time to wait. DOMA and stuff like that: I'm ok with him crafting a longer campaign and timing it right, maybe end of this year or beginning of the next. Besides, I like not having marriage as an option to account for my singleness!

    the greatest threat to america is its sense of exceptionalism.

    by SeanF on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:38:26 PM PDT

    •  Please watch your language (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Predictor

      Words matter.

      When you talk about equal rights for GLBT as:

      the gay stuff

      you are not helping.

      I don't think a republican could do better... just that Obama should do better.

      by rf7777 on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:44:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  what's the excuse on ENDA though? (0+ / 0-)

      DADT is bad, but maybe there's huge resistance from the military structure that I can't account for or understand since I'm not in the military.  The repeal of DOMA is by all accounts still slightly controversial - though providing huge and tangible benefits to a large number of people.  And it's repeal would be in line with the president let state's decide marriage rights.  I can understand being afraid that either of those would make Obama have a Clinton moment (even though I doubt it would).

      But why hasn't ENDA been brought to the table?  Why is it barely even mentioned?  To me this is one of the most important bills, and it's not even being discussed on the Hill.  This bill destroys the workplace closet, which is one of the best things we can do to advance our cause in my opinion.  I feel ashamed that, from what I can tell, it's the gender identity clause that is holding this up, and it's not even being talked about.

      I have no help to send, therefore I must go myself. ~ Tolkien

      by Mad Biologist on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:48:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  i'm gonna see what's happens (0+ / 0-)

        during the next legislative session. If we don't see some movement then, I'll change my attitude. This session has been a fire storm of crisis after crisis. And I quite frankly agree that those come first.

        So I guess that means i am patient!

        the greatest threat to america is its sense of exceptionalism.

        by SeanF on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:09:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  How exactly can you tell that... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pico

        ...the gender identity clause is holding it up? Just, y'know, kind of curious about the assertion.

        ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

        by jessical on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:50:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  If I'm not mistaken, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mad Biologist, jessical, Predictor

        what's holding it up is legislative priority: they aren't sure whether to pass it as its own bill or to tack it onto a larger omnibus (and probably unrelated, heh) bill.  It's procedural, not substantial.

        The Blade suggests it'll be introduced next week.  And it'll be trans-inclusive.  Encouraging words from Rep. Frank:

        "Things have gotten better," Frank said Tuesday. "The transgender community is lobbying hard."

        Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

        by pico on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:23:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  If the real opponent is the GOP (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Predictor

      And Bush signed WRERA, but Obama can't even get a commission together to figure how how to pull back DOMA and DADT, who's the opponent?

      Cheney is more pro-gay than Obama!

  •  It is important for the GLBT community (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SeanF, Tonedevil, Turkana, jgilhousen

    here in the US to advocate for our rights, and we need spokesmen who would do so, as well as organizations who will help footsoldier the efforts.

    Just as important for us to the Iranian people to work for their rights.

    Just don't forget the GLBT community in Iran; the community there certainly doesn't have anywhere near the rights that straight Iranians or gay, lesbian or transgender Americans here in the United States.

    Photobucket

    Teen boys in Iran lynched for having sex with a third boy.

    Khun David aka Crisis Corps Volunteer

    by Khun David on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:41:23 PM PDT

    •  :-( (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Khun David, Turkana

      this is why I don't feel all that oppressed.

      the greatest threat to america is its sense of exceptionalism.

      by SeanF on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:02:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, I see. Sorry that we have higher expectations (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        m00finsan

        here in our OWN freaking country. One that is SUPPOSED to be based upon individual liberties and equality for all (as opposed to a truly oppressive regime where NOT DYING for being gay is truly winning the game.)

        Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

        by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:50:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  listen hun (3+ / 0-)

          I don't take kindly to my plight being compared to those hanged teenagers. It is unseemly for me, and hugely disrespectful to them.

          the greatest threat to america is its sense of exceptionalism.

          by SeanF on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:53:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Then DON'T compare yourself to them. Simple. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            chipoliwog

            You may see things from a different perspective, but that doesn't mean you see things CLEARER than any of the rest of us. The point of view you may have may work for you, it ain't automatically going to work for everyone.

            That said, I don't think the comparison is all that far off the mark. Both outcomes stem from religious intrusion into public policy. Theirs is extreme, granted, but we have very little control over it. Ours isn't so extreme but still affects many of us in very real, very personal ways.

            Just because you may be comfortable and seem to be relatively unaffected by the injustices going on doesn't give you the right to be standing in the way of those of us who DON'T want to wait and want the promises made to us to be fulfilled.

            Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

            by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:01:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  your mistake is in thinking (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Khun David

              I want to stand in the way of progress, rather than that we (may) disagree over tactics. Given that, your type often seems to want to be "right" more than they want to get it done. You are much more concerned with style than results. I'm all for people having different temperaments and bringing different tools to the table. You....I wouldn't bet on it.

              the greatest threat to america is its sense of exceptionalism.

              by SeanF on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:10:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Then you presume too much, entirely. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Turkana

                As per your other mention of character attacks, me thinks ye doth protest too much.

                You've explicitly said you intend to stand in my way in a separate comment, my way, and those of us who do not wish to wait, so forgive me for doubting the sincerety of your "big table" claim.

                Not to mention your insistence to have me explain the "true colors" I see in your comments, yet you are MORE than willing to make extrapolations about "my type".

                Can't have it both ways, bubba.

                You enjoy being on here and stirring the pot, playing Devil's Advocate since your position differs from the majority and the fact that you can get a bunch of us all riled-up must bring you no end of joy. Fine. But since all you want is to play games, don't expect everyone to automatically want to play along.

                'Cause keeping Obama's feet to the fire over the promises he's made and NOT being willing to wait as you prefer we do does NOT equal preferring "style over substance" It is exatly the "substance" that we want and we're tired of waiting. As I've said, most of us have seen this movie already and we know how it normally ends, and it don't end well for us. You may not agree, but we do have some experience on our side and are choosing this course of action.

                Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

                by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:28:05 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  well it is true (0+ / 0-)

                  i do like to have fun, argue, and ok, yah, stir the pot every now and then here. But it's not to disrupt but to engage, make some sparks fly, and see what you come up with. Sometimes you get to know someone in an interesting way, or you might even learn or teach a thing or two.

                  As far as standing in your way, I meant that personally to you, not the cause. And I was trying to have some good humor with this little exchange, which unless I don't get your sense of humor, was not met with much success.

                  Oh well, on to greener pastures!

                  p.s. I hear some repub congressmen are also as oppressed as the Iranians. What a coincidence!

                  the greatest threat to america is its sense of exceptionalism.

                  by SeanF on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:59:03 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Ah, finally some common ground: (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Turkana

                    I hear some repub congressmen are also as oppressed as the Iranians. What a coincidence!

                    However, sorry if I tend to take someone suggesting that they're going to stand in my way as I attempt to gain my civil rights a bit personally and find it hard to believe that someone would actually try to make a joke about something like that. Poor taste, at the VERY least.

                    Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

                    by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:48:29 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  In fact, it strikes me as almost a bit sadistic (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Turkana

                    really, to be trying to make light of such personally-held issues of someone else, to play with a person's raw nerves as you seem to delight in doing.

                    I find it hard to have much respect for someone who thinks so little of another fellow human being that they would do that. This is a bit important of a subject around which to be playing games.

                    Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

                    by JWSwift on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 06:08:18 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  you poor abused little dear (0+ / 0-)

                      how will you ever survive such an awful time you've had blogging??

                      the greatest threat to america is its sense of exceptionalism.

                      by SeanF on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 07:53:00 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Easy. Seeing the tire marks on your back in my (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Turkana

                        rear-view mirror.

                        'Cause really, what kind of person has so little consience that they'll toy with the raw nerves of someone who obviously feels very strongly about their rights for their own sadistic pleasure? Is this really how your mama raised you? Pathetic.

                        Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

                        by JWSwift on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 02:40:43 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

    •  ALLEDGEDLY! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Khun David

      These "Martyrs" were executed on trumped up charges.
       title=

      --Country before party--

      by chipoliwog on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:22:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hey T (8+ / 0-)

    You rock. You know that, right?

    Ok, so I read the polls.

    by andgarden on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:43:17 PM PDT

  •  the truth is (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, drache

    This article is just conventional wisdom regurgitated as something new. Barack obama has spent a substantial amount of political capital on issues we all care about if political capital is doing something that could be considered unpopular even though you know its right but hard. Ex. The G.M bailout saved millions of jobs but its extremely unpopular he did it any way The closing of Gitmo he could easily thru his hand up and said f**K  it   his own party and probably the senator you voted for voted against him he still is trying to close gitmo. The stimilus package is another example just because he hasnt did the shit you want first doesnt meant he hasnt been doin shit he has been doin a whole lot and its ridiclous to thing he is holding on to political capital you got enviromental people want climate change. I want health care. Gay People want Dadt and doma repealed.  Progressives want gitmo closed. and everybody want the economy fixed and we want that all done yesterday. Thats unreasonable thats not realistic stop and breathe thats not going to happen so sto tormenting yourself by watching cable news everyday and getting mad cause all this s**t aint done yet .

    men lie women lie numbers dont Jay-Z

    by Changeweseek on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:44:20 PM PDT

    •  how much political capital (6+ / 0-)

      has he spent on glbt rights? some of us care about it.

      •  He actually stuck his neck out pretty far (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dmitcha, dvbernard

        Starting during the campaign. It would certainly have been politically "safer" to not go into a black church and lecture people there about being homophobes. In any number of speeches he refers to GLBT people as among the American interests he represents. When is the last time any President, or holder of high office, makes speeches listing different groups and says "GLBT" (or like he does with "people of no religious faith").
        It's "just words", but it sets a tone and expresses an intention, and he's pretty astute about when the conditions are ripe for certain things to happen. I do understand the impatience, but I don't understand the extent of the anger and the threats.

        "People who have what they want are fond of telling people who haven't what they want that they really don't want it." Ogden Nash (on universal health care?)

        by Catte Nappe on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:59:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  threats? (0+ / 0-)

          i think the anger is because the impatience is boiling over. it would have been politically risky to dump donnie mcclurkin, which is what many of us would have liked to have seen. he's been pretty low-key in his talk, and he's done very little walk.

          •  Can't the movement be described that same way? (0+ / 0-)

            he's been pretty low-key in his talk, and he's done very little walk.

            Okay, the talk has not been low-key (!), but it has been passive, focused on waiting for what elected officials are going to do.  We are desperate to see the whole lotta walk from the community so we can walk with you!

            If talk is enough for some of the people actually suffering from this injustice, in fact, if it is defended as a powerful tool, then others will be less motivated to act on the community's behalf.

            If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

            by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:28:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  George W. Bush... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          GayDemInRedDistrict, m00finsan

          ...managed to work in obligatory tips-of-the-hat to "people of no religious faith" (it was his father who was the "atheists aren't real Americans" bit).  Talk is cheap.  

          In re: GLBT anger, I think a lot of people aren't considering the backdrop of twenty years of Democrats (on the national level - state and local Dems have been better, at least until they start running for Federal office) taking our money, our support, saying the right things, and then weaseling out of actually accomplishing anything on our behalf.  It's never convenient, you see.  There's an election coming up, dontcha know.  The Dems would lose, and then where would we be?  Because the Republicans really hate us.  So sit down, shut up, and wait your turn, we're told (sometimes in not so many words, sometimes in precisely those words).

          The last Democratic President before this one said a great many pretty things in 1992.  He then stabbed us in the back the moment it was opportune to do so.  That's the context to this.  And we have, to this point, seen no actual indication that Obama is any different.  And mere words, as we've learned to our detriment, don't count.

  •  Obama isn't the problem - Reid is... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dis1010, Catte Nappe, dvbernard, Curiosity

    We're going after the wrong person.  Obama isn't the problem.  Yes, his position on marriage equality is problematic, but he's said that he will sign bills for DOMA, DADT, and civil unions.  He'd probably even sign a marriage equality bill if it came to his desk, Democratic governors in NH and ME did so, even after saying they were for civil unions and not marriage.

    But, we don't have the votes in the Senate to get what we want and need for full LGBT equality.  So, why are we all so pissed at Obama?  Being angry at Obama is a waste of time and energy.  It doesn't make any sense. Instead, we should put pressure on Reid and the rest of the Senate.

    •  The Democratic leadership in Congress (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pd, Turkana, khereva, Curiosity

      is timid, spineless, and worthless. But none of them alone control the levers of government DESIGNED to enforce equal rights.

      Do you know the history of the Justice Department?

      Ok, so I read the polls.

      by andgarden on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:50:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  the problem is the law, not DOJ (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Catte Nappe

        The law is the problem, not DOJ. And yes, I do know the history of the DOJ.  Obama can't enforce anything if there aren't any good laws for him to enforce. DOMA and DADT are the law of the land. They need to be changed.  A national law for civil unions (and later marriage equality) is needed to wipe out anti-gay laws in states like my own (VA).  Obama can't do much with the legal landscape as it is now. We don't have the voted in the Senate and we need to go get them.  Without those votes, complaining about Obama is a waste of time and energy, especially when he wants to sign laws helping the LGBT community.

        •  You don't read the 14th Amendment (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pd, khereva

          the same way I do.

          Ok, so I read the polls.

          by andgarden on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:56:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  that's a tough one... (0+ / 0-)

            I think I agree with you on the 14th Amendment, but I also think very few judges agree with you.  The history of the civil rights movement suggests that any successful challenge to current laws needs to come from outside the Administration while Congress writes better laws.  This still means that we need to convince the Senate to write better laws. Working on Obama doesn't do much good - he's already 85% with us.

            •  Even presupposing (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              khereva

              that you're right on Federal judges (and given the Republican composition of the judiciary, you probably are), there as absolutely no reason not to demand 100% from the President. Having the Justice Department behind us, and having the President make our case to the country, is what we need.

              And no, there is no reason other than controversial custom why the DoJ has to defend blatantly unconstitutional laws like DOMA.

              Ok, so I read the polls.

              by andgarden on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:05:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  more tough issues... (0+ / 0-)

                I'm not sure that DOMA is unconstitutional.  It should be, but I don't think that's a case we can win yet.  I think the President does have to defend laws that he doesn't like.

                We need to make our case to the rest of the country, not the President.  Seriously - it's on us. We need to set up huge organizing efforts in states with wavering senators to get them to vote for LGBT civil rights legislation.  Current efforts just aren't getting it done.  We are winning in blue states, but aren't getting it done in purple and red states.

                •  Whether we can win the case right now or not (0+ / 0-)

                  should have absolutely no bearing on whether we say it's constitutional. And with regard to that and the other things you say, I will simply respond that it's foolish to negotiate against yourself. Not bringing fully pressure on the President would be in effect doing just that.

                  Ok, so I read the polls.

                  by andgarden on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:19:33 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  we shouldn't negotiate... (0+ / 0-)

                    We shouldn't negotiate with nonnegotiable demands. My point is that Obama isn't holding us back - the Senate is. That's an important point that I think most of us are missing.  It's an important point because who you are trying to influence changes your tactics. If you want to influence the President, you do things that focus on him, which is what most of us are doing now. But these acts often have no influence at all on the Senators we need to flip.  Right now, most of us (myself included) don't know which senators are with us and who are against us on the various LGBT-related bills Congress faces.  How can we organize if we don't know where we stand? It doesn't make any sense to me.

                    Andgarden, have you ever directed (or helped direct) an issue organizing campaign? I have, and these questions are fundamental to the ultimate success or failure of such campaigns.  With limited resources (both money and volunteers) we can't afford to worry about those who are 85% with us. Instead we need to flip those who can be convinced and are holding us back. The Senate is holding us back, and we need to spend our time and energy attacking them and not Obama.

                    •  Ok, then we'll agree to disagree (0+ / 0-)

                      I think there is no one in America who has more impact on what the Senate considers than the President. Yes, the Senate has a will of its own, but what do we do when we're not even on the agenda?

                      It takes a President.

                      Ok, so I read the polls.

                      by andgarden on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:35:47 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  yeah - we'll agree to disagree (0+ / 0-)

                        I wish that the Senate were more amenable to influence from the President.  I just don't think they are, as we're seeing with the debates on health care reform.  The same is true with state-level legislators BTW; governors have some influence and can twist arms if legislation is close, but they can only move a few votes.  If we had 58 votes in the Senate, Obama could get the last few, but we're not even that close in the Senate. It's sad, especially because the American people are 85% with us, and will be 100% with us in a few years.

                        •  I think Obama could influence the Senate... (0+ / 0-)

                          ...but without a more resolute Senate leader, it wouldn't do any good.  Obama's doing a lot to try to get some form of health care reform through.  But look at what the Senate is doing.

                          Getting Obama on our side (maybe giving a version of his racism speech about gay rights) would be great.  But it wouldn't be enough.

                          But I think it is independently important to make clear that anti-gay discrimination should receive heightened scrutiny under the Equal Protection Clause.  That way our rights are not subject to the whims of the majority, which they are right now.  In fact, our rights are currently being determined by the vocal minority that opposes at least domestic partnerships.  Such a state of affairs is antithetical to the whole concept of equal protection (not to mention, mere human decency).

                          •  this is interesting... (0+ / 0-)

                            I think that we should get Obama to do this, if we can.  IANAL, so I don't know enough about the Equal Protection Clause to say if this is viable.  IIRC, the Equal Protection Clause is backed up by other civil rights legislation in the case of race, sex, religion, etc.  So, this is good if Obama can do this - I just don't know what Obama can do.

                          •  I don't know if it's viable (0+ / 0-)

                            but that's because constitutional interpretation is performed by humans.  And the humans who are charged with that position right now, well, let's just say most of them ain't attending gay pride parades.

                            As for a big speech from Obama, I don't know if it will ever happen.  It could be a watershed moment for gay rights.  But he has to feel for what this issue is really about.  Not in the abstract sense.  Not in the "something to look down on conservatives for" (i.e. those homophobes are so much less enlightened than us) sense.  But in the sense that there are millions of people in this country who are being deprived of what the Supreme Court considers a fundamental right (and there aren't too many of those), who are left without the ability to marry the person they love and who cannot build a family within the structures (governmental and non-governmental) put in place in our society.

                            I don't know if Obama is that person.  It will be a tragic loss for the GLBT community if he is not.  

                            For now, as long as the President of the United States (a DEMOCRATIC President), one of the most revered and "looked-up to" person in the this country, believes that it's ok to deprive gay people of the right to marry, do you blame much of the rest of the country for believing that discrimination against us is OK?  

        •  We don't have the votes? (0+ / 0-)

          Exactly what do we the votes for?  I suppose we can pass another resolution resolving that the Congress is really really pissed off at former BushCo thugs for not testifying OR maybe we can pass a resolution that we think Kim Jong-il isn't a nice guy?  Maybe, we can resolve that the country really can celebrate Xmas ... too soon for that I suppose.

          Geez louise, what did we work our butts off for these past years?  We still don't have the votes apparently for anything.  Exactly when will we have the votes?

          How about some real change?

          by noofsh on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 08:08:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Anyone know who would succeed Reid? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chipoliwog, econlibVA, Turkana, m00finsan

      ... I'm wondering if we could get a more progressive Majority Leader in the Senate, but I'd also like to know who would follow Reid - if he were to exit. Anyone have an idea? I agree with you all here - Reid continues to be hesitant to act on providing equal rights for LGBT people.  

      Please support equality in California: http://www.couragecampaign.org

      by Curiosity on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:15:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not to say "I told you so!", but... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheMomCat, andgarden, Turkana, Alec82
  •  Too bad Americans can't protest like that (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, dmitcha

    Oh well.  I guess we'll see how emailing works.  I bet it doesn't, but hey, knock yerselves out.

    "If the thorn of the rose is the thorn in your side Then you're better off dead if you haven't yet died."

    by whitewash on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 02:54:05 PM PDT

  •  It seems preposterous that anyone would think (4+ / 0-)

    that they can speak for the GLBT "community" when our community cannot even agree whether it's GLBT or LGBT or LGBTQQI or some other variation.  Some of us are single issue voters. Others are NASCAR fans who despise liberal politics. And there is a very broad and diverse continuum in between and off in both directions from those two vantage points.  And that's not even taking into consideration our non-GLBT friends/family/allies of all persuasions.

    So yeah, I've been active for a couple of decades and am getting impatient.  But, I've been impatient and frustrated before and I don't have my internal success clock set to arbitrary goal posts (such as when any particular other activist's case works its way through the court system).  I'm still willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt, and my eyes glaze over when I'm told that makes me an "apologist".

    My voice is one voice.  One of many.  I respect those to my left who are more fired up and angry than I am at this moment, so long as I'm allowed to have my opinion as well.  I've earned it.  Don't assume that just because I'm not screaming from the roof doesn't mean that I'm not calling & writing and pressuring in my own way.

    •  i speak for myself (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheMomCat, khereva

      and if people recommend the diary, i guess they think i speak for them, too.

      not everyone has to scream from the rooftops. it sounds like you're doing your share.

      •  Can someone point to the people (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        in2mixin

        who are doing something other than writing individual diaries?  Is someone "screaming from a rooftop" in an organized fashion with thousands of others behind this movement for the people who are hoping to act?

        If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

        by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:09:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

          •  no, T, it is more about reading/writing (passive) (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Turkana

            versus protesting/organizing (active).  Some of us come from a space where action is way more powerful than words. But it is not our cause to lead.

            Maybe, in fact, this is an additional unnecessary irony (per my post down-thread):  if the community says Obama's words amount to nothing in the absence of action...then why not shine the same light on itself and realize that all of these words amount to little in the absence of action to back it up and move the cause forward?

            If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

            by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:15:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Sen Gillibrand's diary today and repeal of DADT, (0+ / 0-)

          and there was a diary a long time ago asking for funds for repeal of Prop 8, and similar appeals for NH and Maine votes.  There are positive action diaries.  

          "Newt's all for new ideas. He doesn't HAVE any. He's just FOR them."--Bob Dole.

          by Inland on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:25:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Even though my comment (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Turkana

        was posted in your diary, it wasn't intended to be a criticism of you individually -- moreso of the condescending and judgmental tone I've been seeing in this latest wave of diaries following the DOJ defense of DOMA.

        If the early AIDS era is any guide, then we need both an impassioned and angry voice on the left pushing folks to the level of discomfort as well as the pragmatists who may be able to capitalize on that discomfort among our anxious allies to affect legislative change.  Neither camp can be truly successful independent of one another, IMHO, and we'd all be better served if we showed each other more respect and learned to collaborate better.

      •  I rec'd your diary (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Turkana

        but I always feel that I'm only capable of speaking for myself, even if others agree (or rec).  I rec'd your diary in that it's well-written and rational and addressing important issues, even though I wouldn't agree that I feel you're speaking for me.  For example, I was troubled by your Iran analogy.

        Here's why...

        Obama spoke in Cairo.  The elections in Lebanon defied the early predictions and the moderates prevailed over the Hezbollah contingent.  The already strong reform movement in Iran caught fire and we're seeing the potential for change there that few could have predicted.

        As a result, Obama (who we defended for his claim of being a "citizen of the world") may have done more for the persecuted/tortured/murdered/sexually-reassigned gays of Iran with that speech than anyone before him has ever done -- and Obama will never cite it as an accomplishment because that would be counterproductive with those who'd claim "meddling".

        I would argue our challenges pale in comparison to those faced by gays in Iran.  And I'm not claiming "11 dimensional chess" here, just reiterating that I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he's still intending to fulfill his campaign promises to us -- even if it's on his timeline and not ours.

    •  How about speaking for humans? (4+ / 0-)

      Equal rights for all humans, because we are all humans.  

      Pain shared is lessened, joy shared, increased. Spider Robinson

      by plf515 on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:58:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Couldn't agree more (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Turkana, plf515

        Right now there's a lot of angst and eagerness for us GLBT'ers to move forward from the back of the bus, where realistically we are less human in many ways than our fellow taxpayers in our shining beacon of democracy.  But we alone don't have the numbers (or the dollars) to affect the change we seek by ourselves.

        Your point is a wise tactical strategy message which has been underemployed, IMHO.

        p.s.  I was very bummed I couldn't make it to the meet-up on Monday.  Hopefully next time...

  •  Be patient AND fight (7+ / 0-)

    They are not incompatible.

  •  Thank you (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tnichlsn, Turkana, Curiosity

    I appreciate your comments.  It's so true: the extending of limited benefits this week was a completely cynical move.  Most hurtful is that POTUS did not address the bigot-laden comments in the brief and distance himself from them.  Totally disappointed.  I recommend that everyone in the GLBT community do the same that me and my partner are doing: stop giving to the DNC, DCCC, and any other party organization.  Give to HRC, EQ and directly to candidates who will hold POTUS accountable.

  •  There are two issues in this public debate (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Inland, dirkster42, dvbernard

    Issue #1 is about gay rights.  I am one of many who supporter equality for all.  Voted against 8, volunteered before and since for marriage equality, have stayed engaged online, have repeatedly called for people to post their activities and shared the work of the Courage Campaign here in CA.

    Issue #2 is about the gay community's role and responsibility in fighting for those rights.  And the emerging meme I am seeing across many boards is a desire to see action on the part of the gay community beyond criticizing the administration.  We are looking for organized events, vocal leadership, a clear strategy, and visible action by members of the gay community, so we can follow a plan.  If it is not clear to you how this Obama-only focus is being perceived by some of your supporters, please hear me: we want to come out to support you, but no one will tell us where the meeting is!  The bulk of what I see is passive criticism, and I want to act.  I could get off of a plane in Tehran today and tweet my way to the next rally and Moussavi's next speech.  Make that possible for us here.

    Another concern is that when people, including me, write to request the plan of action, the responses, often vitriolic, misleadingly claim that the request is an attack on Issue #1, on the concept of equality.  It is not.  You have my support for equality - I want to move now to Issue #2.  What is the community actively doing for itself?  And how can I help?

    Unnecessary contradictions in this debate include:

    1. Some community members argue that they are sick of being told to wait, then write streams of diaries in the blogosphere about how they are going to wait for Obama to act.  If the community does not want to be told to wait, and, indeed, does not want to wait, then the community must act of its own volition and give us all something to get behind.  We are here for you!
    1. The community, and this diary, points to the Iranian protests as an example of the imbalance in support for cries for justice, but the community has no ongoing, organized, wildly visible protests with thousands of people making demands to make the world, and the administration, see and hear them. Instead, there are diaries and posts and comments.  For comparison to Iran to be fair, the community must turn out in the hundreds of thousands at strategic locations and times and PROTEST and make demands.  There is a comfort level and an entitlement seeping through many things I am reading, at the same time that supporters are being attacked, that I do not believe will further the cause, even if it feels good or necessary at the time to vent.  I have read many comments trying to twist this into an attack on free speech.  It is not.  It is pleading with someone to do something other than write in a massive and sustained way across the country until this changes.
    1. The community decries Obama for not suitably leading the movement for equality, then continues to write about him as the only solution, when there are others in equally or more powerful positions to achieve the same goals. Anti-DADT Gay congressional leaders could and should bring bills forward and put votes together to ensure their signature into law. Shoot, your own straight congressional leader will do it if you mau-mau enough in front of his or her offices!  Marriage equality may need to be won at the state level and, indeed, at the Supreme Court level, where interracial marriage was fought for and won in our own lifetimes.

    I know I can cue the attacks of my insensitivity or hatred as soon as I click to publish this comment.  I wish I could get through, even to my friends, with this message: I am not telling you to wait; I am BEGGING YOU TO ACT.  So many of us want equal rights for everyone! And it IS your life and your struggle, but if it's no one else's right to tell you how to run the movement, then point us to the movement you are organizing and let us support you!

    If someone can highlight a site or organization with a broad national strategy for this movement, that includes a number of tactics, including one of vocally opposing the President, but with dozens of other avenues to achieve this goal, it would be such a help for all of us who want to follow and are, ourselves, waiting to be introduced to the movement's leader(s) or path.

    If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

    by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:06:38 PM PDT

    •  An additional unnecessary irony (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Inland, Nikki Dai

      Per my comment upthread:

      If the community says Obama's words amount to nothing in the absence of action...then why not shine the same light on itself and realize that all of these words amount to little in the absence of concrete action to back it up and move the cause forward?

      If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

      by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:18:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Let us count the ways that GLBT are in action (0+ / 0-)
        1. GLBT activists fought and lost the fight for marriage equality in California. In my opinion, poorly organized and perhaps lazy efforts.
        1. GLBT activists fought and WON via political and legal actions marriage equality in several states including IOWA. This is phenomenal success in the face of conservative rages against GLBT rights.
        1. GLBT activists have advanced rights on local and state levels including winning domestic partnership recognition, non-discrimination protections etc.
        1. GLBT activists put the weight of their constituency behind the candidacy of Barack Obama an exciting and powerfully voiced candidate who promised to be a Fierce Advocate for their issues. --Jury's still out on this one.
        1. A panoply of organizations fight everyday for the rights of GLBT individuals. So much so, that they draw the ire and derision of conservative activists.  They accuse them of having (gasp!) a Homosexual Agenda.

        --Country before party--

        by chipoliwog on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:01:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Chipoliwog, asking a little more (0+ / 0-)

          since you've started off with the list.  The question is not what LGBT has done historically, but what they are doing right now that people can find and join in on.

          To point to number 5, there are a couple of links already from an earlier poster.  Can you offer some more.  If someone in any of the 50 states or abroad wanted to help right now, where is that central destination to get information.

          The problem I'm having is that when I write for specifics, I think it is being reinterpreted as some kind of general statement that the community is not doing anything.  When, in fact, I really am asking for specific details of what is being done that supporters can get behind.

          Details on that panoply would be ideal!  Thank you.

          If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

          by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:11:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  We are... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheMomCat, dmitcha

      I am BEGGING YOU TO ACT

      I've been to multiple very large public rallies this year, written letters to congress etc... attended fundraisers and participated in all the usual steps of political activism.

      Putting pressure on Obama is only one part of the solution, but it is a critical part. Many of the 'on the ground' activities are not noticed or broadcast on this website but I assure you that they are happening.

      Some groups organizing nationally include:
      The Stonewall Democrats
      and
      HRC

      There are many, many more groups that organize things at local, state, and regional levels.

      I think a lot of the anger from the queer community comes from a lot of folk not understanding just how much work has already been done and just how long we have been struggling for. People take it badly when they are criticized for not doing enough "real work" when they have, in fact, been doing that work for years.

      •  Totally understand, and appreciate (0+ / 0-)

        these links!  I have written that request so many times, and this is my third reply, the first with links!

        I understand the anger about work not being recognized, but as you already know, it is not visible in the media or even on this site.  It might mean that some central organization is going to have to make broadcasting the movement a mission so we can find it.  

        I have been pushing a friend of mine to start a GayKos here (you know I'm talking about you!) so there can be some kind of central destination.  Heck, I'd start it myself, but I know this one's for me to follow!

        Maybe you could start it?

        If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

        by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:32:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Pasivity and misplaced focus. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dmitcha

      I'm willing to stipulate Obama will do nothingif it makes someone actually mail their congressman.  I'm really dismayed that Gillibrand's diary today about a bill repealing DADT that she's working on to introduce with Kennedy and Rep Murphy doesn't get a shout out in this diary, while MCCLURKIN does.  

      The passivity and misplaced focus is amazing.  As I said, I bet most of the congressmen who voted for DOMA and DADT, and all the Prop 8 supporters, must be laughing their asses off that Obama is getting all the blame and pressure while they don't even get a postcard.

      "Newt's all for new ideas. He doesn't HAVE any. He's just FOR them."--Bob Dole.

      by Inland on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:31:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yes! Just like the Iranians! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Big Tex, Turkana, dmitcha

    Get out in the streets in your multitudes, and raise peaceful hell.

    Those who do not study history should not be permitted to make it.

    by trumpeter on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:13:40 PM PDT

  •  IMHO (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Inland, dmitcha

    Probably a redundant comment, but just blaming Obama and repeatedly saying that our senators etc are spineless is not going to bring about any change. What we need is a co-ordinated drive (something like HCNA, probably) that would pressure our elected representatives. What we need is something similar to the four question campaign on the healthcare. Let us find out where our senators/reps stand on the equality for all issue (personally, I prefer "equality for all" to "repeal DOMA/DADT"). This campaign should be spearheaded not only by GLBT people, but by heterosexual people as well. Let the liberal reps/senators know that this is the time to walk the walk.

    As an aside, I don't think we should have too many parallel campaigns either. I would have preferred the healthcare battle to be over first, before we take up this one. I know that it is easy for me to write this, not personally experiencing the troubles and heartburns of my GLBT brothers and sisters, but just wanted to express my frank opinion.

  •  Another object lesson... how many does it take? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    m00finsan, ElsieElsie

    As a longtime gay activist there is something that never seems to go away, that is the demand of lesbians and gay men to expect the Democratic Party or elected officials to something for them that they are not willing to do for themselves.

    Barack Obama is not a "fierce advocate" for the rights of gays and lesbians. He has never done a thing for us. Not in the Illinois State Senate, not in the U.S. Senate and not in the White House.

    We have to organize and build on our own behalf (and we have to do it openly, not from within revolving closet doors).

    I for one am tired of being used as an ATM. I am witholding my contributions from any elected official who has not actually cast a vote publicly in favor of the civil rights of gays and lesbians; and also from those so-called gay and lesbian "leaders" and organizations who continue to raise funds and offer political cover on behalf of anti-gay Democrats uncritically.

    •  srs, an orchid and a clarification (0+ / 0-)

      Open organization would be wonderful, and believe me, we are out here to support you!

      Regarding:

      Barack Obama is not a "fierce advocate" for the rights of gays and lesbians. He has never done a thing for us.

      I just wanted to share from weeks back:

      Mr. Obama has chosen a number of openly gay people for prominent jobs, including Fred P. Hochberg as chairman of the Export-Import Bank and John Berry to run the Office of Personnel Management. And he is the first president to set aside tickets for gay families to attend the White House Easter Egg Roll. (NY Times)

      There have been about 35 appointments to federal posts...more attention being paid to HIV/Aids and supporting the employment practices that disavow discrimination based upon sexual orientation... (Thought Leader)

      First invitation of an openly LGBT band to march in Inaugural Parade.

      First invitation of gay families to participate in the Easter Egg hunt.

      Extension of federal benefits to gay partners.

      This is not to say you are wrong-all-wrong, but to hope the community can see what your supporters are hearing when Obama's history is rewritten rather than focus being placed on specific tasks at hand.  It feels non-strategic and doesn't keep everyone's eyes on the big-picture prize, as in, we recognize what he has done so far and are actively and visibly working en masse to push him and Congress to do more.

      The expectations the community has of Obama right now are higher than those we see the community placing on itself: that is, to act a lot more forcefully than it talks. Some good links were posted upthread to get us started!

      If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

      by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:48:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You Know (0+ / 0-)

        This would make a great movie.

        Huge campaign, lots of promises, and then afterwards the supporters get invited to an easter egg hunt. Wow! And then afterwards, they get to decorate the white house for christmas! They start to seem a little aggravated, but then boom! His gay head of HR for internal staffing appears in the DC pride parade...! We roll forward a year or so, and we find that a group of two or three gay leaders gets to have tier-2 seating at a fundraiser for his re-election campaign.

        At some point, he comes to Jesus, and goes all out. He asks his wife to speak at a Dignity meeting. Press is comatose by this point. Chastity Bono is asked to babysit during one of their trips to NYC to placate the T in the GLBT community. Finally, when called out on lack of progress (yes, easter egg hunts, xmas decorations, pride parades, and a Dignity meeting didn't go far enough) he announces...

        Annual White House Screening of "Milk" on the anniversary of Harvey Milk's birth (memo)! Startled by his largesse, GLBT furiously point out the lack of a rainbow balloon during Pride day. Obama - "I screwed up" acquiesces.

        •  What will be a GREAT movie (0+ / 0-)

          will be the documentary of the mobilized gay community and its supporters acting for change instead of waiting for it or criticizing others for not handing it to them while they typed at home.

          That is the space comments like this may push your supporters into. Are you reading the comments and the frustration with the blame game, and if so, does it bother you at all, not for yourself, but for the movement, that the short-term jabs may cost long-term support for what really matters - equality?

          Not for yourself.  But for the movement.

          If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

          by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:34:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I Acted for Change (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Turkana

            I got married. Ten years ago. THEN I moved back to the US and allowed my case to be discussed in legal circles, and spoke out about it.

            That's no easter-egg hunt baby!

            •  and instead of using that story to make me wrong (0+ / 0-)

              you could use it to advance the cause.  But that is not the priority yet.

              It. is. not. about. you.

              It is about a movement and what is the best approach to achieve the greater good.

              If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

              by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:44:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  This is a bullshit comparison (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gad

    First person to tell me why Joe Scarborough is such a pissy man who needs baby shampoo gets a cookie (whatever the cafeteria has).

    by ronin122 on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:30:19 PM PDT

  •  The comparison is stupid (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gad

    Comparing the Iranian crisis to the GLBT agenda is ridiculous.  

    Iranians are being executed in full public view by a ruthless  government, I don’t see our government shooting GLBT activist for their beliefs.

    The Iranian ruling minority struggling to hold complete power is thwarting the will of the majority, at best the GLBT makes up less than 10-15% of our population.  Those in committed relationships are less and those that want to marry with the potential legal oversight of family courts are an even smaller subset.  GLBT activists are not the oppressed majority trying to break free from a limited number of religious zealots.  

    There is no correlation with the struggle for freedom and the yearning for democracy of the Iranian people.  

    I remember the days when progressives fought for "what two people do in the privacy of their own home is their business."  Now it is not enough to defend the right of privacy, now the GLBT community demands that all approve and support their lifestyle.  

    Why should Obama expend precious and finite political capital to fund health care for the gay partners of federal employees, when health care is unavailable to 46 million Americans that aren’t lucky enough to be in a relationship with a federal employee?

  •  Apparently gays are being shot in the streets. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    drache

    That's a new one.  

    The Obama/Biden Inaugural -- the exact moment when the world went from gray to colorful.

    by alkatt on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:34:13 PM PDT

      •  Oh yes, the DOJ brief advocated gay hangings... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Argyrios, daemonw, drache, gad

        ...as well.

        I'd forgotten about that.  Our situation IS like the Iranians'.

        The Obama/Biden Inaugural -- the exact moment when the world went from gray to colorful.

        by alkatt on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:42:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  there were no killings (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheMomCat, Predictor

          until after the stolen election, and the mass protests. there have been no mass protests, here. the protests in iran have come because people are fed up. the glbt community here is fed up.

          •  saying the community is fed up is (0+ / 0-)

            not as powerful as SHOWING the community is fed up.  All right, broken record, duly noted.

            If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

            by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:51:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  you're starting to see it (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TheMomCat, andgarden, Predictor

              and the fundraiser is just the tip.

              •  I hear you, but please hear me (0+ / 0-)

                We are not starting to see it.  We are seeing lots of complaining and expectation because that is where the current response is focused.  There is not a long-term, big plan, with sacrifice and strategy involved, front and center.  

                The movement is LOSING SUPPORTERS.  We are attacked for not agreeing with the current approach (though not here; this has been a thoughtful vibe throughout!).  We are ignored when we ask for a game plan (thanks to the one comment downthread, though, with links).  And the tone of the online community is one of entitlement and privilege.  Please understand that not attending a fundraiser still suggests the privilege increasingly being associated with the movement.

                I am not trying to attack; I am just, probably pathetically, possible hopelessly, trying to Paul Revere.  Read some of the comments here and at HuffPo about the attacks on Obama, the comparisons to mass movements that involve killings and torture...the middle and the base are feeling frustrated with the movement.

                Please, can the bulk of the energy shift to forward motion rather than backward bashing and inert rebuttal?  It is so important that this change, the state votes are evidence that it can, how can we be so immersed in complaining about the scope of what has happened so far instead of LEVERAGING THE LITTLE STUFF INTO THE BIG PICTURE?

                If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

                by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:12:00 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Yes, of course they should be patient (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheMomCat, Turkana, khereva, m00finsan

    You remember how Dr. King said

    Let's relax, and sit back, and wait patiently for White to recognize, on their own, that we are equal

    No? You  don't remember?

    Pain shared is lessened, joy shared, increased. Spider Robinson

    by plf515 on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:42:52 PM PDT

    •  Remember how Dr. King and thousands of (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Turkana, plf515, m00finsan

      people TOOK TO THE STREETS?  And marched and walked and boycotted and sat in and took batons and spit and bullets and hoses and fire and dogs and STILL did not get handed equal rights?  

      Visibility, sustained hard work, suffering, it all works.  Blogging is not enough.  Saying you are tired of waiting is not as powerful as...not...waiting...anymore...and doing something as a group.  That is the power of Iran.

      If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

      by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:54:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Equal rights for all humans (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheMomCat, Turkana, khereva, m00finsan

    because we're all humans.

    And the people who are against the gays today will be against me tomorrow, and against you the next day.  

    They'll knock down the transfolk.  Then the gays and lesbians.  Atheists, then agnostics, then Muslims and  Jews and Catholics and Wiccans.  Then people with disabilities; then people with PhDs.  Then you.

    They're coming for you.  
    They may be coming for you after they come for me, but they're coming for you.

    Count on it.

    And if you let get the gays, they'll be stronger, and we'll be weaker.

    Pain shared is lessened, joy shared, increased. Spider Robinson

    by plf515 on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:46:55 PM PDT

  •  If I can repeat a comment (7+ / 0-)

    that Dr. Dean made recently:

    I don‘t think that tension is bad.

    People are so touchy here that they equate tension with some kind of massive betrayal, as if you're not allowed to be a supporter/pressurer all at once.  Tension is good: tension is healthy, because we live in a marketplace of competing ideas.  We can quibble about whether the anger is effective, but there's no doubt the voices are being heard.  Which is also a good thing.

    That being said: Turkana, I love your diary, but an action item or two would be nice.  We're filling the ether with opinions, and channeling them into effective action would be a great way to do something productive with all that anger.  Might I recommend people contacting their Congressional representatives to support the passage of the Domestic Partners Benefits and Obligations Act - aka - Lieberman/Collins in the Senate - aka - Baldwin/Ros-Lehtinen in the House?  It's only a stopgap measure until DOMA is repealed, but it's a valuable piece of legislation guaranteeing federal employees in same-sex relationships all the benefits that married couples have.

    (It also puts Congress on a collision course with DOMA, which is exactly what we want.)

    Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

    by pico on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:47:11 PM PDT

    •  there's a with-him-or-against-him vibe (8+ / 0-)

      among many of his more passionate supporters.

      i'll add your action idea.

    •  Pico (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Turkana, pico, jessical, m00finsan

      I have really been appreciating your commentary in a lot of these threads. You add a sense of calm in the midst of what is sometimes acrimonious debate. And you are right. Change and pressure for change is uncomfortable.

      It does seem to me if the people who don't have equal rights don't keeping pushing this issue as hard as they can, who will?

      •  thank you, Kate: (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Turkana, jessical

        I keep trying to write my own diary on this, but I've been too scattered lately to do anything efficient and forceful.  We're at a good moment where we have the emotions high and the president (possibly) responsive, so this is the right time to be out there and active rather than just ranting.  Ranting is fine, mind you - we need to blow off steam sometimes, and people who don't agree need to see the amount of passion that we have and why it's important to us - but all that energy's gotta go somewhere.

        My main concern so far hasn't been the president's sluggish movement on repealing DOMA and DADT (by all indications, there's a tremendous amount of resistance to the latter especially), but his virtual silence on them.  When the DOMA brief came out, I suggested that a lot of the anger and frustration would probably have been curbed if the president had just made a statement reiterating his opposition to the policy, and that he was working with Congress to repeal it.  (He's done the former this week, at least.)  

        My guess is that DADT is stalled for a while (talks are "happening" in the Pentagon, whatever that means) and DOMA won't happen unless Pelosi moves it forward; she thinks there aren't enough votes yet.  This is where the president can really play a role: his approval is far above the House's, and he has a knack for uniting people behind him.

        So as far as I see, our role is twofold: put pressure on Congress, and put pressure on the President to put pressure on Congress.  It won't happen overnight, but I think it'd be a good way to channel our resources.

        Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

        by pico on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:24:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Instead of "Don't ask, don't tell" (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheMomCat, Turkana, jessical, m00finsan

    we should have "Don't care.  So there!"

    Pain shared is lessened, joy shared, increased. Spider Robinson

    by plf515 on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:55:18 PM PDT

  •  i know it's asking WAAAAAAAY too much... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Turkana, m00finsan, gad

    but i would like to see a single, stand alone bill, like THE civil rights act that would with ONE SIGNATURE grant all glbt people full equal civil rights.

    ...and NOT attached to another piece of legislation.

    stand alone.

    (oh, and tipped and rec'ed...i'll bet there's not a single comment on a single iran diary that says, "those pushy iranian citizens, who do they think they are? why don't they just WAIT until the next election?)

    "A time comes when silence is betrayal." ~ MLK, Jr.

    by liberaldemdave on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 03:57:44 PM PDT

  •  I fully agree in sentiment (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Turkana, jessical, dmitcha

    but I'm very, very uncomfortable with co-opting what's going on in Iran right now and applying it to ourselves or our issues.  People are being shot like dogs, right now, for just doing what we're doing here, and I don't want to risk shifting focus from them.

  •  I'm down... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Turkana, pico, daemonw

    ...with this being a moment to agitate, even though as a queer person it is not my first priority, given the wars in progress and all they represent.  It is exactly the moment to speak up and push.

    But as to the equivalency with Iran...it didn't ring true for me at all.  As a trans woman there are very definitely people who'd shoot me for walking down their street.  But, but...I have a lot of things your average non-trans woman in Iran doesn't have, in terms of civil rights and freedoms.  I'm proud to be the same species, seeing them on TV.  I think the equivalency is too easy, and takes something away from that.  Mileage varies :}

    ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

    by jessical on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:00:16 PM PDT

  •  This straight lady called the White house (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KateG, davidkc, Turkana, m00finsan

    on Monday and demanded that the president apologize for the hateful, demeaning and insulting language straight from Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell playbook used by his DoJ against Gay marriages. Especially since he proclaimed himself as a "fierce advocate" of GLBT rights. That he cannot keep on breaking/dodging campaign promises trying to be everything to everybody.

  •  are you seriously comparing... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jessical, bvig, gad

    the lack of equality in America to the absolute oppression of the Iranians?  

    Seriously?  

    If you want to turn off people from your cause, I can't think of a better way to do so.

    And I say that as someone who fully supports equality for gay people the world over.  

    •  Well... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Turkana

      ...I didn't like it either -- was in fact somewhat repelled -- but also know that Turkana has written a boatload of diaries, and is not defined by the rhetorical hook of the moment.  Interestingly, Turkana may have been a better judge of this than I would be -- while some of the comments hang up on just this issue (which seems to me a matter of respect for some really brave people), others seem to be more about the be patient vs our moment meme.

      ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

      by jessical on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:13:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  average iranians (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheMomCat, andgarden, jessical

      enjoy many freedoms, actually. it's not "absolute oppression," or they wouldn't have been able to mobilize the way they have, this week. compare north korea. but i am comparing the fact they are fed up, and everyone understands that.

  •  You are not second class (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gad

    Look, I'll probably get crucified for this comment, but here it goes.  I absolutely believe DOMA and DADT should be repealed.  I believe gays and lesbians should have the right to marry.  But you are not second class citizens.  You have achieved success in just about every possible aspect of society.  There is not segregation as there was with African Americans years ago.  There has never been any push to ban you from voting.  There are bigots who hate gays and lesbians, but there always will be.  There are bigots who hate every minority known to man, and they will act out.  You can never stop them.  You should fight for the reapeal of DOMA and DADT, but you need to tone down the anti-Obama rhetoric.  It makes you look foolish.  

  •  don't yell at Obama (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    drache

    he's not king.

    as for my interest in your issue

    i'm losing issue everytime i hear someone rant about what a let down Obama has been in these first 5 months that he's been spending saving the world from economic collapse.

    it's rediculous.

    you don't cry about someone being mean in the way they yell at you to get the fuck out of the burning building, when the building is burning.

    it's called priorities.

    when the whole world is on the brink, you don't blame the guy holding it back for not doing enough for your cause.

    we have to actually have a society if we are going to better it.

    when you've saved the world from economic collapse in 5 months, you go ahead and give Obama criticism for not doing as good a job as you did.

    •  yeah (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheMomCat, andgarden, Predictor

      yelling at him implies that he's king. when in reality, there's nothing he can do. i get it.

      •  Turkana, please, pretty please (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Turkana

        You have engagement!  You have an audience!  Read the tone of these comments from the movement's supporters and stay with the big picture.  Attacking is not working for all of the movement and is costing you supporters.  Dry responses may feel good, but this is too important.  

        Can you find a way, can anyone in the community find a way, to hear what your supporters are asking you for: a plan of action, recognition of what Obama has done in addition to criticism of what he hasn't, accountability for your own need to lead this movement (not elected officials), a central location and calendar and destination for us to support you...  Can someone take the leadership role here - it does not have to be you, of course, but here you are.

        You have the audience right now.  Can you write something soaring and unifying rather than divisive and defensive?  Is this the time to turn the tide and the tone of this discussion?

        If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

        by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:23:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i appreciate what you're saying (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheMomCat, Predictor

          but there are some who can't handle any criticism of obama. this is such a one.

          •  I have to take that as a no. (0+ / 0-)

            I am going to go ahead and step away and leave this to continue as it is.

            I think there was an opportunity just now to try something very different, but there is not yet a motivation to do it.

            If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

            by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:27:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  dmicha (0+ / 0-)

              you are exactly right, except about one thing.

              i don't need to be won over.  almost nobody here does.   we just don't want to listen to Obama or ourselves being demonized.   we know how much this is important to us and it's hurtful to be talked to like we are fuckers who don't care or worse... don't get it, like we are so completely incapable of understanding the suffering of people without equal rights.  it's the biggest insulting slap in the face and after a while... being understanding of the pain that is behind this kind of talk... it stops being enough to make you not get pissed.

              •  AB, just to clear that up (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Turkana

                I definitely don't think people need to be won over.  I think they need to mobilized and directed and utilized, in the way leaders do with supporters of a movement.

                If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

                by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:36:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  FUCK YOU (0+ / 0-)

            I am NOT SUCH A ONE

            Am I a nigger?  maybe a cracker?   maybe a dirty jew?

            what such a one am I?

            dmitcha was EXACTLY RIGHT in what he said above.

            I'm on your side.  I just want what he said.

            You know nothing about me, but you judge me.   My parents and entire family, I'm 9 of 12 children, don't have anything to do with me because they are practically the Palin's and I'm a liberal.   I am on your goddamn side.   But I don't like it when you make it sound like your allies are not your allies.  It's infuriating after a while.

        •  You're kidding right? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheMomCat, Turkana, Predictor

          Anger is exactly what we need.

          Obama gave us soaring speech and then his Justice Dept compared gay relationships to incest and pedophilia. Please explain to me how that was unifying?

          Look I get that some straight liberals don't prioritize my human rights over their healthcare. I'm not even angry about that. I can live with that.

          What I can't abide are people who think we should be patient or not complain when we've just been compared to f***ing child molesters. Get real!

          You want unification, tell the president to treat all Americans equally. Repeal DADT and DOMA. Until then the Dems are just as bad as Repubs.

          •  bullshit (0+ / 0-)

            you have a good reason to be angry, but you are exagerating the situation

            99.99999999999 of the peope in the country wouldn't even know about the memo/brief/whatever.

            there was no effort by Obama to compair gay people to child molestors.

            and EVERYONE who is honest to themselves knows this is true.

            a wrong was done, but not in the scope that you are saying it was done.

            this is the problem... you exagerate the offense and then people don't give you respect for the true offense done

          •  I am not kidding. I am disappointed. (0+ / 0-)

            I see an extraordinary opportunity for change on this issue.  And it is being beaten back NOT by Obama, NOT by uncaring libs or conservatives, but by a self-focused, privileged few in the community who will not put the cause before their anger.  

            Not "turn off their anger."  But focus it on action instead of complaining.  It sounds passive.  It sounds petulant.  It sounds entitled.  And it is turning off supporters.  It, in fact, attacks and discredits supporters.  And the political activist in me is watching, slackjawed, trying to believe an oppressed group could be this indifferent to strategy and shoring up the base and bringing in the middle because they feel deserving of something they are not visibly showing they are willing to fight for.

            There is nothing wrong in comparing this to the same CAUSE of equality in the civil rights movement.  But it is truly not comparable to the same ACTION as the civil rights movement.  Or the one-week old Iranian Election movement.  And no one appears to be understanding this point.  They just keep attacking and defending instead of strategizing and building support. It is the equivalent of the Iranians we are watching now deciding to stay home and blog about what a jerk Ahmadinejad is instead of GATHERING TOGETHER IN THE STREETS AND ON THE ROOFTOPS AND REFUSING TO BACK DOWN UNTIL THEIR MISSION OF HAVING A FAIR ELECTION IS ACCOMPLISHED.

            Sigh.  Deaf ears.  Unless...does anyone out there in the gay community hear what I am saying, asking for, suggesting, hoping for...?

            If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

            by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:22:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Is there hyperbole (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TheMomCat, Turkana, Predictor

              Sure. People are angry.

              But frankly I find the hyperbole comparing it to Iran less of an irritant than our supposed friends telling us to be patient.

              If we're unimportant then out money won't be missed. If we are important (or our money is important) then we should get some action commensurate with the importance of that money.

            •  If I can be devil's advocate here, (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TheMomCat, Turkana, Predictor
              this is less a quality of the LGBT community, which has been lobbying hard, and more a quality of blogging - and not just on this issue.  Nor do I think all the anger has lost the larger movement any supporters, apart from a handful of people who read blogs.  But I agree with your frustration and I hope people who right seriously on this issue are more diligent about channeling it into proactive action - heck, not just on this issue, but on any issue that gets discussed here regularly.

              Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

              by pico on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:33:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  ya know what, pico... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Turkana, pico

                you are absolutely right.  I switched over to Stonewall's home page, and let me see what's going on in my zip code.  This is more a real estate/location issue, probably, than a systemic one.  Thanks for that point.

                If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less. - Gen. Eric Shinseki

                by dmitcha on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:55:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Appreciate it! (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TheMomCat, Turkana

                  I've been trying to work with EQCA (although they're still a bit scattered), and I should probably sent out another round of letters to representatives.  Thanks for the kick in the ass!

                  Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

                  by pico on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:59:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  gosh (0+ / 0-)

        if only you were president.  i bet you would get it done.  i bet it would already be done.  

        how would you have done it?

        that's what I'd like to know.

        i hear all the complaints.

        what is it exactly that Obama should do that will get you what you want?

        •  use his great popularity (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheMomCat, Predictor

          and his great political skills to move what needs be through congress.

          •  Or, failing that, the public (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TheMomCat, Turkana, Predictor

            Ok, so I read the polls.

            by andgarden on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:31:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

              •  He has the ability to move both (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TheMomCat, Turkana, Predictor

                like no one else in the country. That is why he needs to be pressured.

                Here is our problem:

                And I firmly believe that whenever we exaggerate or demonize, or oversimplify or overstate our case, we lose.  Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose.  A polarized electorate that is turned off of politics, and easily dismisses both parties because of the nasty, dishonest tone of the debate, works perfectly well for those who seek to chip away at the very idea of government because, in the end, a cynical electorate is a selfish electorate.

                Let me be clear: I am not arguing that the Democrats should trim their sails and be more "centrist."  In fact, I think the whole "centrist" versus "liberal" labels that continue to characterize the debate within the Democratic Party misses the mark.  Too often, the "centrist" label seems to mean compromise for compromise sake, whereas on issues like health care, energy, education and tackling poverty, I don't think Democrats have been bold enough.  But I do think that being bold involves more than just putting more money into existing programs and will instead require us to admit that some existing programs and policies don't work very well.  And further, it will require us to innovate and experiment with whatever ideas hold promise (including market- or faith-based ideas that originate from Republicans).

                Our goal should be to stick to our guns on those core values that make this country great, show a spirit of flexibility and sustained attention that can achieve those goals, and try to create the sort of serious, adult, consensus around our problems that can admit Democrats, Republicans and Independents of good will.  This is more than just a matter of "framing," although clarity of language, thought, and heart are required.  It's a matter of actually having faith in the American people's ability to hear a real and authentic debate about the issues that matter.

                Finally, I am not arguing that we "unilaterally disarm" in the face of Republican attacks, or bite our tongue when this Administration screws up.  Whenever they are wrong, inept, or dishonest, we should say so clearly and repeatedly; and whenever they gear up their attack machine, we should respond quickly and forcefully.  I am suggesting that the tone we take matters, and that truth, as best we know it, be the hallmark of our response.

                His theory of political change is, to my mind, somewhat incoherent.  I know the world is in love with what he wrote in that diary, but I find it very depressing.

                Ok, so I read the polls.

                by andgarden on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:42:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Executive order (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheMomCat, andgarden, Turkana, Predictor

          Stop loss on all DADT activity.

          There that's one thing he could have done.

          Next question.

  •  obama hasn't done this (0+ / 0-)

    obama hasn't done that

    whaaa whaaa whaaa, where's my pony, obama!!?!!1

    aren't DOMA and DADT legislation, i.e., obama is powerless to overturn them himself?  

    the struggle for black civil rights was centuries in the making.

    it wasn't until 1920s that women could vote

    and there are still lingering issues; passing the requisite legislation didn't magically make everything great.  and repealing DOMA won't magically, instantly make everything better, either.

    ffs.  never mind all the progress in the states.  forget the cold, hard, undeniable demographic lock gay rights has on the under 30 set.

    never mind that prosecuting torture now strengthens everyone's civil rights, gay or straight.  and oh hey...if we had single payer, benefits to same-sex partners of employees would largely be a moot point.  

    meh

    New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

    by Cedwyn on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:35:31 PM PDT

    •  yes (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheMomCat, andgarden, Predictor

      obama is only an enormously popular president, whose party controls congress. he's powerless. people are such whiners for being upset about being denied basic rights. thank you.

    •  Your evening prayer (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Turkana, Predictor

      Dear Leader,
      You are such a wonderful president.
      Thank you for supporting warrantless wiretapping.
      Thank you for not closing Gitmo.
      Thank you for keeping white house visitor logs private.
      Thank you for providing no public option to health care..
      Thank you for calling gays perverts.
      Thank you for being George Bush.

    •  Geez, what in this diary (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Turkana, Predictor

      warranted a comment like that?

      Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

      by pico on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:07:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  the part where i didn't bow and scrape (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TheMomCat, andgarden, Predictor

        at obama's feet..

      •  gay rights (0+ / 0-)

        does anyone seriously believe the political climate for gays is in any danger of worsening?

        does anyone seriously expect that the number of states protecting gay rights is going to backslide?  

        for reals?

        maybe, i don't know...the ire and energy could be focused at the state level, where it might actually be productive?  as opposed to, you know, getting mad at obama for not waving his magic wand and making everything perfect and acting like he can just snap his fingers to undo legislation, but just refuses to use this ability for the power of gay!

        New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

        by Cedwyn on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:23:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So you're just being petulant, (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheMomCat, Turkana, Predictor, Alec82

          is what you're saying?  Because there's nothing in Turkana's diary that suggests that rights will backslide, or that we're supposed to pressure Obama at the expense of, or exclusive of, other strategies - or at the expense of, or exclusive of, other issues.  You made all that up.

          There is the question of whether someone who ran on a platform supporting certain pro-LGBT policies is actually advocating effectively now that he's in office - and given that he's pretty much the only person in federal office with a high approval rating, there's the question of why he's been so muted on these issues now that he's been elected.

          Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

          by pico on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:31:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  how is it petulant (0+ / 0-)

            to point out that obama is not capable of repealing legislation -- which DOMA and DADT are -- by himself?  is it petulant to be exasperated by unreasonable expectations?

            why is it petulant to ask that, instead of blaming obama, state-level campaigns be instigated?  takes the same amount of energy.  

            look; i'm just saying that gay rights is on pretty solid footing, all things considered.  the recent activity in the states, the court rulings declaring gay marriage bans unconstitutional...that's huge.  leaps and bounds forward for the movement, very recently, relatively speaking.

            at this point, it would take some hard core legal contortion to instate anti-gay legislation.  hence my questions about where do you honestly expect gay rights to go from here, forward or backward?  because, imo, an issue only needs militant activism when it's weak.  the battle for gay rights is all but won.

            do i wish truly equal rights for all would be in place when i wake up tomorrow?  you bet your ass.  it's just that i have yet to hear anybody on about how not enough has been done yet -- from any disenchanted cause -- come up with the specific legal solution of how obama is to have repealed DOMA and DADT, or fixed that, or stopped the other thing by now.  i'm dying to hear these studied analyses.

            New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

            by Cedwyn on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:48:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If I'm not mistaken, (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TheMomCat, julifolo, andgarden, Turkana, Alec82

              Turkana's diary is pretty clear that the biggest thing the movement needs is for the president to be the kind of advocate for the issues that he suggested in his election platform.  Nobody expected everything to be done overnight - but nobody expected the complete silence on most of these issues that has been prevalent since the election.  Likewise, people have gotten increasingly frustrated with Gibbs' inability to discuss DADT, the changing stories about progress on the policy, the silence on DOMA until after the backlash against the DoJ brief, etc.  

              Or to quote Turkana's diary, which it doesn't seem you've read:

              Many of us think he should use his enormous political talents to sell controversial policies to a divided public.

              And that's what it boils down to: advocacy.  Maybe the president is trying to sell these policies behind closed doors, but when you don't hear anything, and then you get that DoJ brief, it's not a surprise that it was met with a backlash.  And when you don't say anything, and the Pentagon denies having any conversations about DADT (later retracted), it's not a surprise that it was met with confusion.  

              I for one and glad the president brought up the Domestic Partners Benefits and Obligations Act in his statement yesterday, and I fully trust him to sign it if (and when) it passes.  That's great.  That's the kind of stuff that I'm looking for.  That's the kind of stuff we're not really getting.

              Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

              by pico on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 06:06:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  now why you gettin' rude? (0+ / 0-)

                Or to quote Turkana's diary, which it doesn't seem you've read

                that's necessary?  it bolsters your point how?

                the president kicks DADT down the road, extends federal benefits without extending the most important benefits, and talks about repealing DOMA without actually doing anything about it.

                i read that and my response is what, exactly, is obama supposed to be doing about repealing DOMA, a piece of legislation that can only be undone by congress?  how is obama supposed to extend benefits the law does not allow him to extend?

                New Rule: You may not simultaneously celebrate the Civil War *and* diss the South.

                by Cedwyn on Fri Jun 19, 2009 at 06:49:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  WTF do you think prop 8 was (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheMomCat, julifolo, Turkana, Alec82

          if not a backsliding of rights?

          Ok, so I read the polls.

          by andgarden on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 06:09:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Hoekstra, Hoekstra, Hoekstra! (0+ / 0-)

    As in, this diary is a textbook example of the latest internet meme.

    Seriously, did someone just steal an election out from under you? Are you getting beaten up and shot at for having the nerve to point that out? No? Then really, you have no room to compare yourself to the Iranians here.

    Fire breathing Liberal.

    by lexington1 on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:43:36 PM PDT

  •  fuck this bullshit (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    drache

    i'm new to following politics.  i started during the primary.  i thougth by what everyone said that Hillary Clinton was the next Dick Cheney.   now everyone loves her.

    this is all just bullshit.  this whole thing.

    the memo wasn't ever meant to be a statement that gay people are like child molestors or sibling fuckers.

    Obama is busy keeping our country holding together.

    make all the noise you want, but your personal attacks are just exactly what loses you support.

    so, attack away and worsen your cause.

    keep saying that you won't support Obama

    just like the PUMA's.

    and you look and sound... just like PUMAs by the way.

    if they aren't for us they are against us... 100%

    if they don't support us, they are evil

    it they don't end bigorty against gay people in less then 5 months while saving the world from economic collapse, then they just don't care or get it or try hard enough.

    what does a black man know about unequality anyway, right?

    fucking stupidity

    •  where did i say (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheMomCat, julifolo, Predictor

      i won't support him? you're the one making the wild binary hyperbolic projections, not me.

      •  FWIW (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Turkana

        Actually, I read parts of your diary as pretty hyperbolically binary -- although by no means in AntonBursch's league.

        I honestly don't think a lot of Kossacks have been telling others not to pressure Obama, or not to be upset with his failure to use the bully pulpit. I think there have been lots of varied disagreements, and lots of temptations on all sides to make them starker and neater than they actually are.

        I also think it would be nice to abolish the word "patient" at least for a week or so, since no one agrees what it means, and it doesn't seem worth arguing about. (Yeah, and a pony.)

        We need to pressure Obama to make good on his promises. That's how it's supposed to work.

    •  To be fair... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Turkana

      Turkana is being reasonable.

      Go to Americablog - that's site has turned into a Gay version of Free Republic in the last week.

      Hussein references...
      Birth Certificate references...

      Every other post is about how Obama is driving the country off of a cliff and hasn't done one thing for anyone since Jan 20th. They basically want to put every major issue in this country on hold until LGBT rights issues are resolved.

      It's absurd over there.

    •  Here's the deal (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheMomCat, julifolo, Turkana, Predictor

      If the Dems are going to act just like the Repubs, why should we bother voting for Dems? If I wanted Repub behavior, I would have voted Repub.

      I voted for Obama and yes I'm disappointed. And while I was upset over things like not halting gay military dismissals (when he clearly has the power to do so), I understood that dealing with a smoldering economy, foreign policy issues, etc. might be more pressing. That doesn't give license however to insult. Waiting patiently while a friend is busy doing other important stuff is different than being insulted by a someone who was supposed to be a friend.

      I get that you don't get that. Fine

    •  Unfair comment (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheMomCat, julifolo, Turkana

      Turkana has the right to push for gay rights.  This is an important issue.  I can easily understand why gay people are so frustrated on this issue.  They have been told to be patient and wait for decades.

      I don't think he went negative on the President.  It's simply a call to action.  There is nothing wrong with that.

      How about some real change?

      by noofsh on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 08:02:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I cannot hide my sexuality it is obvious to (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheMomCat, julifolo, Turkana, Predictor

    anyone and I believe fully that it is innate.  Thank you for making this argument.   We are upset because this is not 1900, not 1950, not 1992 we should not even be an issue and to most people under 40 we are not.   I don't get Obama right now.  He is kissing up to the weak,dismal conservative Minority for no good reason.  There is going to be no payoff for him I am boycotting donating and volunteering along with millions of other well off and active gays.

    Fool me once shame on you; fool me twice won't get fooled again. George Bush

    by ganymeade on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 04:51:54 PM PDT

  •  I've been so impressed with the Iranians (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheMomCat, julifolo, Turkana

    who are standing up right now.

    I don't know which impresses me more:  their courage or their dignity.  Probably the latter.

    It is remarkable how dignified and peaceful these protesters are.  They know they have truth on their side, and so rather than lash out in anger, they take refuge in their numbers.  They climb to the rooftops of Tehran at night and the eerie, mysterious and beautiful calls of "Allah O Akbar" fill the city skies, resonating with so much more meaning than what is contained in those mere words alone.

    And on the streets, they march, taking refuge in their numbers, almost in silence.  They open their faces to the riot police, and those police remove their helmets and smile back.

    And when there is anger, it is targeted at the odious Basiji militias, where it ought to be.  It isn't spraying out wildly and friend and foe alike.

    Oh, I've been watching - you might say transfixed - by these beautiful people this week, Turkana.

    Have you seen them yet?  I mean really seen?

    The GNOP: "We take the bi out of bi-partisanship"

    by Mother of Zeus on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 05:00:29 PM PDT

  •  I agree with Turkana (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheMomCat, julifolo, Turkana

    Gay rights is an important issue.  I won't ever tell you that gay people should be patient.  Gay people have waited long enough to be treated like citizens that have the same human rights as straight people.

    President Obama, this is an issue that you can do alot without having to wait on Congress.  You can order the military to end DADT.  It's that simple.  Just issue an executive order and DADT is over.

    You can then push for an end to DOMA.  It doesn't take much but for you to get a group of Congressional Reps together and start the process of introducing to end DOMA.

    How about some real change?

    by noofsh on Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 07:59:55 PM PDT

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