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For a long time, now, I have been suggesting that left anti-Zionism often serves as a shroud for anti-Semitism and that the constant vilification and demonization of Israel is anti-Semitic when the people doing that vilifying ignore Darfur and Congo and Sri Lanka and the Chinese in Tibet.

I must admit that I was wrong and I hereby issue an apology.

I live in San Francisco and I love my town.  Some months ago there was a protest against Israel’s Gaza incursion and here are a few photos demonstrating just how wrong I was.

Let’s get directly to the matter, shall we?

This nice lady carried a sign reading, "Jews are terroist!"  I am not certain what a "terroist" is, but criticism of Israel is not, I repeat, NOT anti-Semitism.  By the way, aren't her daughters as cute as little anti-Zionist buttons?

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Now, given the overly extreme sensitivities of Jews "Zionists" you would think that someone carrying such a sign would be asked to leave or put it away.  Did that happen?  Not exactly.

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Smile pretty for the camera!

Some of the pro-Israel, "Zionist" crowd has suggested that the left is often supportive of Hamas despite their Jew Killing agenda as laid out in their charter, which reads, in part:

The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!

But this is clearly false.  No one on the left actually supports Hamas:

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No one on the left would be caught dead supporting a blood-thirsty, gay-hating, woman-oppressing, Jew-killing, theocratic organization like Hamas.  It’s just that Hamas is misunderstood.  They can’t help themselves.  Besides, it’s all Israel’s fault.

And since it is all Israel’s fault, you really cannot blame people for wanting to kill "Zionists."

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Or ZioNazis, anyway.  This fine gentleman of the left has nothing against Jews, just evil ZioNazis who are legitimate military targets.  Kill the ZioNazis!  Of course, since the vast majority of Jewish people happen to favor the existence of the Jewish state (for some dumb reason) this would make them Zionists and, thus, Nazis.  And we all know what to do with Nazis.  Just what this gentleman suggests, eh?  But no reasonable person could possibly consider such a stance, the killing of "Zionists," to be anti-Semitic.  This is merely criticism of Israel and again, criticism of Israel is NOT anti-Semitic and anyone who suggests otherwise is a GIYUS Hasbara troll trying to shut down the discussion.

Here is this man’s criticism of Israel:

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Smash the Jewish state?  That’s a good question.  Should Israel, or should Israel not, be destroyed?  There is something like 13 million Jews in the world, a whopping .2% of the world population, and nearly 40% of them live in Israel.  But the question of whether or not to wipe them out is not anti-Jewish.  It is a merely a question that people of good will can disagree upon.  

Now, the European Union has declared that equating Israel with Nazi Germany is anti-Semitic, but given Europe’s famous love for the Jewish people, it is not surprising that they would suggest this.  The problem is that there is just too much good will toward Jews in Europe and they are far, far too overprotective of their Jewish citizenry.  Just because Jewish schools and synagogues have to be guarded by the police from possible attack means nothing.  And just because anti-Jewish violence is rising there is no cause for concern.  National Socialism, of course, is generally considered the worst, the most vicious, political movement in world history and they had to be destroyed.  But comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is not anti-Semitic.  It is, again, merely criticism of Israel.  There is nothing wrong with criticizing Israel, just as there is nothing wrong with criticizing any other country.  And just because Israel is like Nazi Germany, and Nazi Germany had to be destroyed, Jewish people should not get so head-up about this mild criticism.

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And just because Zionism, the movement for Jewish self-determination and self-defense, is just like Nazism is also no reason for Jews to object to such a characterization.

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Of course, some people consider Jews to actually be worse than Nazis.  The picture below shows a Star of David, the symbol of the Jewish people, with a "greater than" symbol pointing to a Nazi Swastika.  I understand that a tiny percentage of blood-thirsty Jewish neo-cons would object to such a characterization, but the neo-cons gave us the Iraq war and thus should not be listened to.  The suggestion that Jewish people are actually worse than Nazis is nothing but criticism of Israel.  It is not meant to offend Jews and it certainly should not be taken to mean that Jews are evil and must be gotten rid of.

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Never again?  It's a question, really.  Probably never again.  Perhaps.

Nonetheless, as I am sure you will all agree, the Intifada needs to be globablized.

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All this person is suggesting is that people of good will around the globe must take to the streets in violent confrontation with "Zionists" wherever they might be found.  Just because the vast majority of Jews support the Jewish state and are, thus, "Zionists" doesn’t mean that they should object to a global Intifada.  

In fact, Jewish people, as a matter of social justice, should join with their anti-Zionist brothers and sisters calling for violent reprisals against... "Zionists"!

Some of you, btw, may have heard of a recent police shooting of an unarmed man in Oakland in the Oakland City BART station.  One liberal anti-Zionist protester, reasonably enough, blames this on the Jews.

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The suggestion, of course, is that Israel’s recent criminal Zionist genocidal massacre in Gaza is directly connected to that shooting.  But it cannot be said enough that criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic.

Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic.

Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic.

And there was Cindy.

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What a shame.

And, again, I apologize.

Originally posted to Karmafish on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:18 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  What is the point of this? (21+ / 0-)

    Other than to stir the shitpot?

    Silence is the enemy - Green Day 4310+ dead - Bring them home

    by Miss Blue on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:23:15 AM PDT

  •  So there's no middleground, eh? (15+ / 0-)

    You either believe that all of Israel's military actions have been justified or you hate Israel?

    One cannot simply want to work for peace in the Middle East through negotiation and constructive action on both sides?

    -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

    by sunbro on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:25:25 AM PDT

  •  I'm not all that worried. (7+ / 0-)

    My brother and I have been steadily planting Gharkad trees in our front yard.  That way, when the Muslims come to kill us, we'll have a tree to hide behind that won't tell the Muslims we're there.

    /hamaschartersnark

    "Ambrose...Just stop it now ! Your intellect is just to overpowering and opressive for us average bloggers"

    by AmbroseBurnside on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:26:50 AM PDT

  •  For minute I thought this was honest (12+ / 0-)

    self reflection and you would say you saw how people are responding to Iran. But no, you are not honest or reflective at all. Just dillusional.

  •  EU has not ruled on Nazi analogy (5+ / 0-)

    That is a false reading of an EU document which states that it MAY be evidence of anti-Semitism and was written by an American Jewish organisation and incorporated into a document at the behest of a rabidly pro-Zionist MEP.

    In addition, the extract of the Hamas charter you quote it itself a quote from the Koran and is open to interpretation according to how you translate it.

    •  Great comment! (7+ / 0-)

      In addition, the extract of the Hamas charter you quote it itself a quote from the Koran and is open to interpretation according to how you translate it.

      LOL.

      Oh, sure.

      "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

      by Karmafish on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:33:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And it's not from the Koran, anyways. (5+ / 0-)

        Isn't it from the Hadith?

        Regardless, start planting your Gharkad trees!!!!

        "Ambrose...Just stop it now ! Your intellect is just to overpowering and opressive for us average bloggers"

        by AmbroseBurnside on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:36:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  can you provide the original Hamas charter (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lib Dem FoP

        and not a copy on a Pro-Zionist website?

        •  Its probably out there somewhere (5+ / 0-)

          but your point is well taken. Hamas is embarassed by it and calls it a "historical document" that does not guide its present policies, though they haven't rescinded it officially for reasons having more to do with refusing to do what Israel demands than anything else. It lives on, however, reproduced endlessy on pro-Zionist websites.

          Its a case of the political use of instances of  anti-Semitism for other purposes. A similar thing occurred in the NYC teachers strike against community control in Ocean Hill-Brownsville in 1968. Some small unsanctioned group handed out an anti-Semitic leaflet at a pro-community control rally. The teachers union got ahold of one of the few copies made and reproduced hundreds of thousands of copies of it to prove that the Black and Latino community organizations demanding community control were really anti-Semites. It was a stunt that did more to poison Black-Jewish relations in New York than the original leaflet makers could ever have hoped for.

          The fact that Hamas's politics have developed since the charter is inconveneient to the purposes of portraying them in a certain light and so the charter keeps getting dragged out. Its intellectually dishonest but what are you gonna do?

          •  oh for the love of reason. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zemblan

            blaming Hamas for not rescinding that portion of their charter, on the Israelis, is a flimsy excuse. It's simple enough:  Hamas could simply rewrite their charter, dropping that piece of it.  Nothing prevents them from rejecting that ugly bigotry.  Nothing.

            two cheers for democracy

            by ClaryinVT on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 05:04:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Agreed (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Bidet

              I'm not defending Hamas's failure to change their charter I'm just saying that it doesn't prove that it reflects their current outlook. Lots of groups are running around the world with un-rescinded founding documents that don't reflect the subsequent development in their thinking and this fixation on Hamas's stinky charter is intellectually dishonest.

  •  yeah, (14+ / 0-)

    this is real helpful, Karmafish. Flamebait inciting people to trot out in response the "one shot, two kills" t-shirts, the video of those drunken louts, the fascist-salute freaks, and on and on and on and on and on.

    Yeah, you're really dedicated to "peace," Karmafish. To peace on this blog, not so much.

    Enjoy your Saturday. This diary has made it a much better day.

    •  Yeah. (4+ / 0-)

      I think it's an unhelpful diary.

      However, with some editing it could make a salient point and drop the generalizations and attacks.

      We have weapons of mass destruction we have to address here at home. Poverty and homelessness are weapons of mass destruction. - Denny K

      by Chicagoa on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:56:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  amusing how one Christpher Day (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Karmafish, neroden, Corwin Weber

      has the gall to hr this diary when he himself wrote a diary about those two drunken louts.

      Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

      by Keith Moon on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:05:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Personal attacks. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tonedevil, neroden, csquared

        Unnecessary.

        Discuss the issues not individual users please.

        We have weapons of mass destruction we have to address here at home. Poverty and homelessness are weapons of mass destruction. - Denny K

        by Chicagoa on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:11:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  it's not a personal attack (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Corwin Weber

          in any way shape or form. it's noting blatant hypocrisy by Chris day, a known rabid anti-zionist

          Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

          by Keith Moon on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:14:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It is irrelevant to the issues. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            csquared, thethinveil
            And unhelpful.

            I would be happy to discuss the content of the diary with you, but I will always urge against discussing the individuals.

            It leads to flame-war, and doesn't actually have anything to do with the ideas expressed. Ideas and arguments stand on their own merit, they are not altered by who states them.

            Peace.

            We have weapons of mass destruction we have to address here at home. Poverty and homelessness are weapons of mass destruction. - Denny K

            by Chicagoa on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:16:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  it's not irrelevant (0+ / 0-)

              blueness made a point about that video which Chris Day diaried on dKos, stating that loons can be found on all sides of the equation.

              Noting that Chris Day diaried that very thing, yet has the gall to hr this diary is pertinent to the exact subject matter in this diary!

              Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

              by Keith Moon on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:19:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  How is that relevant to the issues? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                capelza, csquared
                You're talking about the motivations and actions of a single individual. It is unhelpful, and makes no point.

                What do you hope to achieve with such comments? Do you want us all to go egg his house?

                It is irrelevant.

                Let's discuss the issues please.

                We have weapons of mass destruction we have to address here at home. Poverty and homelessness are weapons of mass destruction. - Denny K

                by Chicagoa on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:23:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  right, the issues (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CN, deaniac20

                  did anyone who hr'd this diary, hr Chris Day's diary?

                  did litho make grand pronouncements of being offended in Chris Day's diary? art schmart? anyone?

                  step forward!

                  Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

                  by Keith Moon on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:25:21 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You are still talking about individual users. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    neroden, KenBee
                    What is your goal?

                    Is it to achieve better understanding, and work towards compromise and clarity? Is it to make a strong rational point about Israeli policy?

                    Or is it to condemn, attack, and mock the actions of specific DKos users?

                    Say you're right. Let's assume that you demonstrate that DKos user X, Y, and Z are terrible hypocrits.

                    So what?

                    What have you accomplished?

                    Let's take the conversation in a more productive direction.

                    We have weapons of mass destruction we have to address here at home. Poverty and homelessness are weapons of mass destruction. - Denny K

                    by Chicagoa on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:30:12 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  It's not even that it's unhelpful (11+ / 0-)

      it's that it's so transparently dumb. I mean, think of the level of sophistication on display here: Google around for a few pictures of anti-Semitic signs, paste them into a diary surrounded by innuendo that they are somehow representative of anti-Zionism or the "left", and simply hope no one will notice the yawning chasm where logical argument would normally go. It's insulting to the reader.

      •  sure, (11+ / 0-)

        it's dumb, but mostly it's arson. Karma's been on a tear on this blog for months, fulminating about "anti-Zionist" Kossacks, and now he puts up this thing, which at least implicitly associates those fellow Kossacks with the diary's drooling loons. What this site always needs is another diary that spawns several hundred comments of fiery spew.

        •  The irony (9+ / 0-)

          about Karmafish's vigilance about anti-semitism on the "left" is that on this blog, he habitually engages in sweeping anti-Arab rhetoric and seems to in fact enjoy it immensely. So here we have someone feigning moral outrage in such an unreflexive way that it really obscures any legitimate point he could ever make about anti-semitism, even if it were in a diary not as clumsily and ineptly fabricated as this one.

          We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians. --Nelson Mandela, Pretoria December 4th 1997

          by sortalikenathan on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 01:41:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The diarist has accused me, (8+ / 0-)

            the Quaker, granola-eating, mama of two of being a terrorism supporter because I am a Palestinian and have analytical skills.  Reading this diary, I feel like I am in an alternative universe.

            The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

            by soysauce on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 09:55:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Liar. (0+ / 1-)
              Recommended by:
              Hidden by:
              Lefty Coaster

              Anyone who follows that link will see that I accused you of nothing.

              "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

              by Karmafish on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 02:13:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  the saddest part (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              blueness, Aunt Martha, soysauce, Bidet

              of all of this is that the Arabs on this site are all secular progressives. If these accusations are being leveled at us, people who really could serve as a bridge between Jews and Arabs collectively, then it doesn't bode well for co-existence at all.

              Like you, I have learned quite a lot on this blog about the fears that motivate people's positions. What I find striking is the ways that so many self-identified supporters of Israel who consider themselves progressive, instead of supporting progressive Israelis and instinctively identifying with them (and I'm referring to people like Amira Haas, Gideon Levy, Sara Roy, Uri Avnery, and even on this blog, people like Assaf--a courageous advocate of co-existence), they instead identify with and defend the positions of Netanyahu! The dissonance is striking, and it sort of makes me wonder why that is. I think part of it is that I assumed people here were more progressive than they actually are, a mistake I've become very aware of.

              We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians. --Nelson Mandela, Pretoria December 4th 1997

              by sortalikenathan on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 07:14:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Is that zero sum? (0+ / 0-)

                You list several people (Haas, Levy, Roy, Avnery) that you feel should be supported and then present Netanyahu as the only alternative.  Either or.  Did you mean it that way?  If someone doesn't support Avnary they then support Bibi?  I can't think that equates with everyone.  

                100% agree with your first paragraph though.  Very good point.

                •  well if you look (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Aunt Martha, soysauce, Bidet

                  at the political positions of the majority of the people here who claim they are supporters of Israel, they align much more with a kind of right of center (so called) "moderate" Israeli position (like Kadima, an outgrowth of Likud), than anything resembling a progressive Israeli position. And my point about those progressive Israelis was not to suggest that they are the only ones that should be supported. I was making a specific point about the lack of support they receive here. Why do you think that is?

                  In stark contrast, we're seeing a defense of Netanyahu here. There have been diaries calling him a peacemaker. I mean, if I really wanted to read about how Netanyahu was a champion of peace, I'd go to some right wing sites to get that.

                  We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians. --Nelson Mandela, Pretoria December 4th 1997

                  by sortalikenathan on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 08:41:25 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I've seen (0+ / 0-)

                    iirc, several pro-I users mention their support for things like J-street and their dislike of Netanyahu. Not all who support Kadima are doing so because they support their right of center positions, but because they're looking at Livni as an electable alternative to Bibi.  It may not pass a purity of position test, but it comes across to me as good intentions from people who don't live in the region.

                    sorta, I know who the pro-I users are that fit your description. I've hide rated some of their worst comments. There are also users who mirror them the P-side of the issue that you've hide rated.

                    My impression, fwiw, is the majority of users, on both sides, fall far inside those extremes with a demographic more numerous than those on the edges.  

                    And that doesn't mean, by default, those on the pro-I side support Bibi or Likud if they don't throw up Avnery or others as their standard bearers. That's the zero sum and too broad a brush for me.  But I do absolutely support your line that said:

                    the Arabs on this site are all secular progressives

                    It's a good point that can't be repeated enough, imo.

                    •  Again though (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      capelza, Bidet

                      If the question is one of pragmatism vs. idealism, one could easily say, "I support the positions of Amira Haas and Gideon Levy, but for the sake of defeating Netanyahu, I would support Livni." I don't ever see people make that distinction. And furthermore, most people here are not in the position where they would actually have to make that decision because they are not Israeli.

                      In fact, I rarely ever see anyone cite or mention Israeli progressives here, except for Assaf and Jon and Pal Prof. Again, why is that? I would love to have answers to that question. Do people read them? Are they too left of center for this blog? What objections to people have with Uri Avnery?

                      For me the question regarding whether something is realistic or not is not relevant with regards to my personal positions. This is a blog, after all. How likely is my secular progressive vision for Iraq to be realized? Does it mean I should stop articulating it? No, of course not.

                      As I see it, the number of Arab progressives and Israeli progressives are small enough as it is, and yet, we are the most likely to be the ones who could create something productive out of the mess that is Israel/Palestine. From my view, it's a shame that the voice of Israeli progressives is not given more attention here.

                      We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians. --Nelson Mandela, Pretoria December 4th 1997

                      by sortalikenathan on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 02:33:39 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I was (0+ / 0-)

                        actually suggesting you should articulate your secular progressive vision as often as possible.  It's not whether it could be realized, but that people are given the opportunity to hear your insight on it.

                        I'm not sure I agree that the voices of Israel progressives are not given more attention.  I think cite users like Jon, it might not find agreement from those (rightly or wrongly) who find his diaries as inflammatory as this one.  

                        The example I think that works, choosing one from the p-side, is unspeakable's great diary from the Palestinian point of view.  He got a lot of support from pro-I users who don't always comment.

                        As for Avnery and other writers, there are varying opinions on their positions. I think it's best for users to discuss their own positions, which is why I support your ongoing effort to do so, whether it's something I agree with or not (again, I do agree with your statement about the secular vision).  

                        The way I see it is this:  everyone doesn't have to agree, but if each could discuss their positions and respect each other's point of view -- especially if they don't agree -- there could be a healthy debate.  Right now, not so much, but that doesn't mean people should give up trying, imo.

              •  You are a bridge. (4+ / 0-)

                I'm sure sometimes it feels like a bridge to nowhere, but for some of us you have been a bridge to a very good place.

  •  Glorious diary! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    neroden, Doodad

    Now we can get back to discussing how those wonderful, fluffy Ayatollahs are defending their country from the evil, zionist-inspired democrats complaining about a stolen miraculously improved election in Iran.

  •  I feel I've said this more than once.... (18+ / 0-)

    ...since I've come back, but saying it again will only hurt me a little.

    Who cares?  I mean, what difference does it make what causes Jew haters embrace?  Anyone with a baker's dozen of functioning braincells can tell that "Every Zionazi is a legitimate military target" is Jew hating garbage.  What does the fact that such garbage is spoken at anti-Israel rallies really matter?

    Obviously, Jew hatred is a major motivation of Jewish nationalism, and to the extent that these events make a difference, they promote Jewish nationalism among Jews.  And also obviously, a lot of people hate Jews.  But the fact that a lot of people hate Jews really has almost nothing to do with the debate over Israeli policy, American policy towards Israel, or any intellectual endeavor which hopes to solve the intractable issues between the Jews and the Palestinians.

    Generally speaking, I think the notion that we need to catalog who the bad guys are in order to be good guys is faulty.

    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

    by Jay Elias on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:37:37 AM PDT

    •  And welcome back, (7+ / 0-)

      some of us really missed you, and, how in the hell are you?

      Listen to Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions. (mp3!)

      by borkitekt on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:40:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Anti-Semitism on the left (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CN, kalmoth, deaniac20, Corwin Weber

      must be opposed, Jay.

      We cannot allow it to gain traction.

      I have seen far too many comparisons of Israel to Nazi Germany within left circles.  Far, far too many.

      It's toxic, dangerous, and seems to be gaining ground.

      I say, "NO" to that trend.

      "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

      by Karmafish on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:47:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It is opposed... (14+ / 0-)

        ..and it isn't gaining traction by any meaningful measure that I'm aware of.

        There has been a problem with the political left, in the US and abroad, of some small segment embracing lousy, violent, revolutionary groups for as long as there has been a United States.  Consider the support in the 1930s for Lenin, or the support here for Chavez in Venezuela.  The romantic aspect of revolt is often enough to appeal to some enough that the caliber of the revolt is not properly considered.  This is not a problem exclusive to Jews or Israel.

        But, more importantly, there isn't a lack of pushback, which happens in a variety of ways.  One such example is the J Street Project, an attempt by some on the left to create a pro-Israel lobbying apparatus which is more left-oriented and free of the taint of AIPAC.  There are large, well-funded organizations such as the ADL which do broader work pushing back against it.  And there are people like you and me, who will not tolerate Jew hating speech in our presence.

        I'm going to need more evidence that this is gaining ground before I really get worked up about it.  In the meantime, I'll point out again that we can be good for good's sake, and not merely by resisting evil.

        The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

        by Jay Elias on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:54:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your reason was missed around here. (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mickT, capelza, Jay Elias, borkitekt, csquared

          Glad you are back.

        •  not gaining traction? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CN, Karmafish, Corwin Weber

          look at blogs like DKos, the Huffington Post, where you can regularly find anti-semitic posts under thinly veiled "anti-Zionism" with false comparisons, and implicit slurs and stereotypes about Jews. There is no "Jewish lobby" but we've seen that on these blogs. These bloggers vote, you know, and could start influence campaigns on the primary level at local seats upwards.

          Here's food for thought: look at this poll. Obviously a good deal of both Dems and Repubs have anti-semitism. But why is the Dem number higher? This should ring off massive alarm bells. We are the diverse tolerant party. We cannot have tolerance for the intolerant. I do think given our ethnic diversity, and historical antagonism between groups like black and Jews, given economic times, this could be part of the problem. But people like Wright don't help, Jackson or Sharpton either, and their hate rhetoric is part of the problem. But the anti-war left has allowed Israel hate to creep up. one can go to an answer protest, and if a Jew, be the subject of vile anti-semitism from the crowd with the "Free Palestine" signs.

          This is an emerging problem. Not mainstream amongst Dems yet, but among the blogs. and we cannot allow this.

          "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

          by deaniac20 on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:14:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, not gaining traction... (8+ / 0-)

            ...how does the speech at dKos or Huffington measure the increase of anything?  I've not been around much for over a year, but I don't recall anti-Israel postings rushing up the rec list, either - that something exists isn't evidence that it is gaining traction.

            That poll doesn't surprise me.  I suspect that it is due to demographics.  But this:

            We are the diverse tolerant party.

            ...is a big fucking joke to me.  No honest reading of history can tell us that.  We're the party which tends to talk about diversity and tolerance being good things.  That doesn't make us actually diverse or actually tolerant.  Being better than the Republicans is a pretty low standard.

            Finally, again, I'll point out that we're not allowing it.  Wright, Jackson and Sharpton have all been badly wounded by their anti-Semitic statements.  International ANSWER was marginalized, their protests significantly discounted, due to their embrace of anti-Israel rhetoric.  It is hard to imagine a group which has had to answer more, from the right and left, for their views on Israel than ANSWER.

            I think your statement that this is "an emerging problem" is based on hindsight bias; you are forgetting, for whatever reason, how generally fucking horrible it has been to be an American Jew throughout US history.  There can still be all kinds of problems with it being a lot better now than it ever has been before.

            The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

            by Jay Elias on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:25:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Poll has a nasty conflation in it (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            csquared

            Look deeper and you notice that people with higher educational levels are less anti-Semitic.

            But people with higher educational levels are more likely to be Republican.  (Because they're more likely to be rich, largely -- the poll also didn't separate for economic class....)

            The only interesting question is whether the "more Democrats anti-Semitic" thing persists if you control for educational level.  Because if not, all it means is we need to improve education -- it's obvious that less educated people are more prone to fall for bigoted conspiracy theories (well, obvious to me).

            -5.63, -8.10. Learn about Duverger's Law.

            by neroden on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:38:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I do think racial tensions (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CN, neroden

              related to blacks and Jews, and given how the black community doesn't get the education it needs is part of the problem. This may be in the Hispanic community too. I am not blaming them, but I think the sentiment should be analyzed. Something needs to be done about hate preachers like Sharpton, Jackson, and Wright. They're probably a helluva lot more common than we expect. This is where Obama must step in.

              "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

              by deaniac20 on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:44:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Agreed that's an issue (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CN, skeptiq

                Sharpton still has far more influence than he deserves; he's been bigoted about a lot of things and has a history of sex and finance scandals, and it's absurd and dangerous that he remains popular or influential.

                Are you referring to Jesse Jackson Jr.?  I haven't heard of any anti-Semitic statements from him.

                -5.63, -8.10. Learn about Duverger's Law.

                by neroden on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:51:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Jesse Jackson the original. (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CN, deaniac20, neroden, Corwin Weber

                  http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

                  Rev. Jesse Jackson referred to Jews as "Hymies" and to New York City as "Hymietown" in January 1984 during a conversation with a black Washington Post reporter, Milton Coleman. Jackson had assumed the references would not be printed because of his racial bond with Coleman, but several weeks later Coleman permitted the slurs to be included far down in an article by another Post reporter on Jackson's rocky relations with American Jews.

                  A storm of protest erupted, and Jackson at first denied the remarks, then accused Jews of conspiring to defeat him. The Nation of Islam's radical leader Louis Farrakhan, an aggressive anti-Semite and old Jackson ally, made a difficult situation worse by threatening Coleman in a radio broadcast and issuing a public warning to Jews, made in Jackson's presence: "If you harm this brother [Jackson], it will be the last one you harm."

                  "Ambrose...Just stop it now ! Your intellect is just to overpowering and opressive for us average bloggers"

                  by AmbroseBurnside on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:57:36 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  remember "Heimi town?" (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  neroden, Corwin Weber

                  bet people didn't forget that catchy little phrase, right? Or Jackson's little "Zionist" comment which preachers like him and Wright use interchangeably with Jews, as Wright just did when he said Obama was controlled by them "damn Jews," and then said "I meant Zionists."

                  No I am referring to the real Jesse Jackson, not his son, who really doesn't mean shit, except playing race cards against Hillary, because she cried at the primaries.

                  "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

                  by deaniac20 on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:57:54 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  There was a history though (0+ / 0-)

                During the times of segregation many Jews owned the small businesses that would be in the ghetto. While some may have been reasonably decent, others weren't-that's the source of the old resentment among old African-Americans. I say old.

                The younger generations who live in integration and who also remember the Jews who stood with them during the Civil Rights marches don't feel that way now. The current resentment is Koreans and others who also come into the community and treat their customers with disrespect and acquired prejudice.

                The resentment isn't true anti-Semitism, even among black people who know little about Jews, but about exploitation by petty merchants who know that people who live in the inner city have few other options and choose to exploit that.

                Is anti-semitism growing? Not really. Sure there are skinheads who are looking for a scapegoat. But they are losers and unable to gain much traction among the populace.
                I suspect that most of the supposed growth is simply bigots who feel a little bolder in their prejudice because they can network.

                Howard Dean Forever and a Day

                by CarolDuhart on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 02:21:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  I think you missed..... (5+ / 0-)

          ....the postings during the Gaza fighting.  Karma's right.  It's increasing.

          •  I did miss that.... (4+ / 0-)

            ...which I'm positively sick about (on opposite day).  But an increase in the problems with postings here isn't evidence of an increase in general, nor with an increase in anything which is actually problematic.  And the correlation of such increases to military campaigns by Israel isn't coincidental, and says more about the problems of using force to solve problems than it does about the problems of Jew hatred on the left, IMO.

            That being said, I'm open to being persuaded - maybe I'm underestimating the problem.  I don't think so; having been aware of anti-Zionist sentiment and Jew hatred all my life, it is hard for me to see an observable difference in the amount of Jew hatred or the harms associated with it from any time in my adult life to now.  It is hard to consider anything anyone is saying now any more harmful than Jesse and Michael Jackson's statements in the 1980s.  17 years after the Crown Heights riots, I'm not feeling that there is any more genuine danger today than there used to be.  If I'm wrong, that could be important, and someone should try to prove it.  But a sample of comments here and of a handful of anti-Israel protesters doesn't make that case with any authority.

            The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

            by Jay Elias on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 02:19:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Jay..... (6+ / 0-)

              ....you missed quite a bit while you were gone.  We had literal Hamas propaganda go to the top of the rec list.

              This isn't hyperbole.  We had a literal Hamas propaganda video here, and instead of being HR'd into oblivion, it shot to the top of the rec list.... and that's just the most blatant example.

              •  I did miss quite a bit... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Corwin Weber

                ...and if that happened, it is a great pity.  But I'm not willing to say that the problems of Daily Kos are the same problems as that of the United States, or the political left of the US in general.

                The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

                by Jay Elias on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 02:27:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  In a lot of ways.... (5+ / 0-)

                  ....they are.  I'm not so sure whether Karma's right and it's increasing overall, or if it's just more of the same.  Let's face it, there's always been an element of antisemitism on the left as well as the right, and it needs to be stood up to in both cases.... but some of the statements that have been flying around here (like Karma being told that antisemitism isn't a problem these days) are getting worse.

                  It's not a simple thing, and I don't think Karma is suggesting it is.

                  •  I think I am facing it... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Corwin Weber, csquared

                    ...there has been and will continue to be anti-Semitism in all places, among all people of all views.  There is a vibrant anti-Semitic movement in Japan, a place where there aren't any actual Jews to hate.  So it goes.

                    And I agree that it needs to be stood up to.  My point from the beginning was that pointing out that Jew haters tend to also be anti-Zionist isn't really needed; the Jew hatred pretty much always comes through in the message.  The "All Zionazis are military targets" is a great example; whatever that statement claims to be saying about Zionism is not much of a concealer of the Jew hatred underlying it.  So why distract ourselves with the veil of the message rather than the content of the message itself?

                    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

                    by Jay Elias on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 02:40:13 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Jay, (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              deaniac20, aggregatescience

              "Study cites dramatic rise in anti-Semitic attacks in Europe"

              The number of anti-Semitic incidences in Europe through the first three months of this calendar year exceeds the total number of such occurrences from all of 2008, according to a report issued by the European Jewish Congress.

              The findings were announced by EJC president Moshe Kantor during a special session of the European Parliament which was devoted to the subject of anti-Semitism on the continent.

              http://www.haaretz.com/...

              "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

              by Karmafish on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 02:26:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I know... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                capelza, csquared

                ...but Europe's problems aren't the same as America's problems.  And while that is disturbing, a three month trend is also not statistically significant.

                More importantly, I'm hardly suggesting that Jew hatred isn't a problem.  I'm suggesting that the evidence for a causal correlation between anti-Zionism and Jew hatred is unsubstantiated.  Even if we take the European information as statistically significant, it may not correspond to an increase of anti-Semitism at all, but rather to an increase in the probability that anti-Semites will use violence.  Which is a serious problem in its own right, but not the same as increasing anti-Semitism (I'm not suggesting that is the case, simply pointing out that we don't know).

                The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

                by Jay Elias on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 02:32:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Jay, (3+ / 0-)

                  isn't it obvious that comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is a tactic that can only create hatred toward both Israel and Jews?

                  Shouldn't it, therefore, be denounced?

                  "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

                  by Karmafish on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 02:37:06 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It should be denounced.... (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    capelza, aggregatescience, Conure

                    ...regardless.  But what it may cause isn't the same thing as what causes a person to say such a thing; I don't think that you can say in any fairness that hatred towards Jews is the only reason why a person would say such a thing (and despite my love of my adopted nation, I don't care if people hate the country, or any country.  I care about people).

                    I've denounced the comparison many times, as inflammatory, pointless, and almost always in ignorance of history.  But denouncing the comparison isn't the same as denouncing the individual who makes it.  We all say stupid things, often on purpose.

                    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

                    by Jay Elias on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 02:43:22 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  A lot of what we see (0+ / 0-)

                  Are people looking for scapegoats and a way to shock.

                  A long time ago I remember reading that German kids raised under the old East German regime had been lied to about everything and that neo-Naziism was a way to shock the older generation and annoy them. But that's posing, not politics-the truth is that it stays the youthful rebellion of losers and isn't a political force to be reckoned with.

                  As for the left, that's not growing either. While many people feel that there's two sides to every story, or resent being dragged into Middle East problems, there is little sentiment for anti-Semitism. What there is has no influence on the Democratic party, significant numbers of the Democratic coalition, not even the Green coalition.

                  Howard Dean Forever and a Day

                  by CarolDuhart on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 02:47:04 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks Jay (9+ / 0-)

      I've gone to many pro-Palestinian demonstrations and there is often a smattering of this sort of crap. I and many others argue with folks to either get rid of the signs or leave, sometimes with the support of organizers, but sadly not always.

      Its a more complicated phenomena than some realize. Some folks are hardened anti-Semites. But a lot of younger Arabs I've seen carrying signs like this have really never met a Jew (that they know of) who thought they were anything but vermin, generally because they haven't met many Jews. So they fall for the crude equivalency between Jews and the actions of the Israeli state. In my experience most of these folks are quite happy to know that there actually are Jews who don't defend Israel's crimes against them and to modify their views (and signs) accordingly. The big 60 year old white guy? Not so much.

      Anti-Semitism is there to be found in both the Arab and Muslim communities and on the left for those who want to find it. It isn't represenative, but any of it is too much.

      But your main point is key. The venality of the folks holding these signs does not constitute an argument for Israel or its policies except on the crudest level of fear-mongering: that so long as there are anti-Semites in the world that anything at all can be justified to maintain and defend Israel. That, of course, is what this diary is really about.

      •  yeah (2+ / 2-)
        Recommended by:
        deaniac20, oldskooldem
        Hidden by:
        neroden, Lib Dem FoP

        the actions of the Israeli state - self defense and survival.

        //

        Viva anti-Palestinianism! No State for Palestinians!

        One state solution! Israel and a Palestinian / Jordanian Union!

        Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

        by Keith Moon on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:12:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I agree with a lot of what you are saying... (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        capelza, Tonedevil, neroden, borkitekt, KenBee

        ...and one of the most salient points you make is about how few of these people actually have encountered any Jews at all.  I'd posit (without evidence, but I suspect I'm right) that Jews are the smallest yet most visible minority in the world.  For the huge swaths of humanity who keep hearing about Jews and never meet one, anti-Jewish sentiment is probably a lot easier to come by.

        That said, my lack of interest in the motives of anti-Israel demonstrators applies to the diary too.  What his motives are aren't something that either of us can know, or that are particularly relevant in responding to it, in my opinion.  These arguments about what is motivating our interlocutors strike me as a big waste of time.

        The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

        by Jay Elias on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:12:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Did Cindy make any anti-Semitic statements? (0+ / 0-)

    Other than victory to the Palestinian people, that is? :)

    •  maybe she could tell us what that means (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      skeptiq

      considering her comments like her son was "was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel" or "joined the Army to protect America, not Israel." And the fact is that the letters were hers.

      "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

      by deaniac20 on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:43:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Oh, now I get it! (6+ / 0-)

    Criticism of Israel is antisemitic after all!

    So where's all the outrage against anti-atheist bigotry?

    by skeptiq on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:40:33 AM PDT

  •  The "Left" (9+ / 0-)

    Is that the only way you could smear the Left, is by showing pictures of Muslims protesting with a few pictures of neo-Nazis thown in and calling them all examples of 'The Left'"?

    If it takes 183 times to make it work, the ticking time bomb will already have exploded by then.

    by William Domingo on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:41:30 AM PDT

  •  Drama with no purpose (6+ / 0-)

    my impression of this diary.

    "My favorite is Greta Van Susteren"--Kirsten Gillibrand, FoxNews Progressive

    by GN1927 on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:42:25 AM PDT

  •  It is perplexing (5+ / 5-)

    Why on earth would Palestinians hate the Israelis so much?

    They're such a sweet people so obviously committed to using their vastly superior resources (including our tax dollars) to achieve peace and justice.

    Perhaps your next diary can explain how all criticism of George W. Bush constituted attacks on America...

    We must pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and begin again the work of remaking America.

    by Minerva on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:48:40 AM PDT

    •  But they're not criticizing Israel's government, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Karmafish, Corwin Weber

      so your comparison of

      Perhaps your next diary can explain how all criticism of George W. Bush constituted attacks on America...

      makes no sense.

      They are defaming Zionism as a whole.

      "Ambrose...Just stop it now ! Your intellect is just to overpowering and opressive for us average bloggers"

      by AmbroseBurnside on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:50:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  not necessarily. (6+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sfgb, capelza, Tonedevil, corvo, neroden, KenBee

        some of those clearly are, but other examples are clearly related to the policies of the israeli state.  

        As you probably realize it is possible to be a firm zionist (as in strongly support Israel's right to exist and would never stand by to watch a genuine threat to its existence) while decrying Israel's brutal and largely unjustified policies in regards to its neighbors at the same time.  I for one fall in that camp.

        I also have a deep and abiding love for the United States and all the tremendous potential that we as a people have to offer, but at the same time I am a vehement critic of the institutionally racist, unjust, brutal and heartless policies that our democratically-elected and corporate-owned government pursues to the detriment of the entire world and the people and organisms that inhabit it.

        I have my loyalties, but they do not cause me to hold my tongue where there is wrong in the world.

        Fundamentalism, like fascism and communism before it, will not rest until it is thoroughly discredited or has the entire world under its yoke.

        by Guinho on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:01:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I suspect the jewish settlers and (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        neroden

        jewish-only roads and stuff is really the face of the jewish people that most palestinians see. And since all of the above is tacitly and not-so-tacitly supported by the Israeli state I can see and understand why people equate the actions and policies of the Israeli state with the actions of jews.

        Dissolve Israel; stop distinguishing between jew and non-jew in Palestine.

        by high5 on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:19:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Please define it. (0+ / 0-)

        They are defaming Zionism as a whole.

        Is the settler movement part of 'Zionism'? In that case I can see why people 'defames' it. (As it is about the dispossetion of the palestinian people).

        Dissolve Israel; stop distinguishing between jew and non-jew in Palestine.

        by high5 on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:24:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Lose the sig (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          deaniac20, neroden, aggregatescience

          cause all I see is bla bla bla SIG.
           or maybe it's just me...but your inflammatory sig is as bad as this diary smear.

          In 2002, the USFS spent $36 million on its Tongass timber sales program, and rec'd back just $1.2 million from timber companies.

          by KenBee on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 01:21:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So sorry you feel that way. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            heathlander

            I see what I state in my sig as the only sensible solution.

            What you have today is practically a one-state solution in which the non-jews are considered second citizens and the further we come the more impossible a two-state solution is. And that is by design.

            What's left is to demand equal rights for non-jews. To get there I think the concept of Israel, as a nominally jewish state, has to go.

            Dissolve Israel; stop distinguishing between jew and non-jew in Palestine.

            by high5 on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 03:58:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  HR for smearing ALL Israelis. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kane in CA, Aunt Martha, soysauce

      Yuck.  And shame on the people who uprated a comment isulting every single one of the millions of Israelis.  You want to criticize Netanyahu, A. Lieberman, Likud, Yisrael Beiteinu?  Fine.  Smearing all Israelis.  Not fine.  Just as it would not be fine to smear ALL Palestinians.  

      Why on earth would Palestinians hate the Israelis so much?

      They're such a sweet people so obviously committed to using their vastly superior resources (including our tax dollars) to achieve peace and justice.

      How very upsetting.  The difference between criticizing Bush and criticizing ALL Americans is vast.  

      •  I uprated because of the HR earlier (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lefty Coaster

        And I won't remove it.

        Dripping sarcasm is what it was...

        Sorry if that upsets you and I can see how you could take it that way.   But then the diary was positively dripping as well..so the response isn't out of place.

        Though rereading it I can see what you are saying.   But I will not remove the uprate because, as I said, dripping sarcasm met with dripping sarcasm...

        Karma wants to dish it out, his diary should take it as well.

        •  Well, I understand you being angry at the diary (0+ / 0-)

          At the same time, I wish you'd reconsider taking out that anger on the rest of us.  There are many good Israelis and many here have family and friends there.  Even if it's sarcastic, we all have to stand up for some better discourse here.  And better starts with eliminating hurtful generalizations like this.

          I get that these diaries are maddening and the urge of retaliation is there (I give into too), I just think that, in your heart, you're better than this uprate.  

          •  Btw, there were no HRs when I first read (0+ / 0-)

            the comment.  Yours and four other uprates were there.

          •  I did remove it..for your sake. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            thebluecrayon

            You are one of the posters who does make an effort to reach across or be civil.   And will take the time to explain.  

            However, there are some in this very diary,  who are not so (see Russell's comment at the very bottom, heck, any of Russell's comments).  

            And as for the diarist, I can not give him an inch of consideration.  See below:

            http://www.dailykos.com/...

            He calls Nathan revolting.   And I do want to point out that though you took part in the sub-thread, you did not HR the cartoon.   This isn't a gotcha,  but simply to point out that obviously we read things differently at times.    

            As for the HR, I swear there was an earlier HR.   Hmmmm....I may have mixed it up with another post.  

            I do uprate some posts because I agree with the sarcasm, something that often gets lost through the keyboard.   I read it in Minerva's post.   Not as anti-semitism, just as "this is a bullshit diary".  Which I whole-heartedly agree with.

            •  Thank you! (0+ / 0-)

              That is very considerrate.  I do try to explain but it's one of those things that usually doesn't work.  

              There are a lot of posters in this diary who are beyond the limits of acceptable discourse.  Let's just say, people should be glad it's not me making banning decisions. ;)  Quite a few would be gone from both sides.

              It's fine to call me on that cartoon incident.  We all have to be accountable for what we do and say.  To the best of my recollection, I got to that diary very late and there were already more than enough HRs on the comment, so that's why I didn't HR.  I do the same thing oftentimes with comments offensive towards Jews.  It wasn't meant to be a subtle condoning of the comment.  What I also saw was karma apologizing a couple times, saying that he thought it was a Hamas flag.  So I thought it was a genuine mistake.

              As for the fights between karma and nathan, I try not to get involved.  Once I tried explaining to Nathan why I relate to some of what Karma says and why I understand where he's coming from.  It turned really ugly, sadly.  

              In general, what I think is because of the hate on both sides, there are people on both sides of this argument who have become very polarized - and I've actually seen it happen in my short time here.    And I completely understand how that is possible because I have gotten sucked up into that cycle of polarization.  Knowing this, it's so understandable how in real life I/P hate breeds hate. What we are seeing is the cyber-version.  What I think is that if there was understanding of the anger, fears and anxiety coming from both sides, some of the people who now appear very extreme would come back to the middle.  Maybe that's naive, but I think at his core, Karma doesn't hate.  He is just freaked out (as many of us, including myself) at the conflation of antisemitic memes that have gotten absorbed into the I/P discourse/movement and have become accepted as okay things to say/do, when the history of those memes are very ugly, violent and horrific.  So, I guess I see some of what each side is saying when it comes to how people feel unwelcome or uneasy or offended by things here.  I know and understand many people don't see the same things as I do in karma's intentions. IMO, let's say some people here in this diary said "Oh wow, that's awful what those signs say.  We don't believe in that and don't think that should be part of our movement," then it might have done a tiny little bit in stopping the cycle of cyber-polarization.  I hope that makes any bit of sense.  It's late. :)

      •  Uprated for your abusive H/R (0+ / 0-)

        There is NOTHING insulting in calling Israelis sweet, or snarking that their government's policy aims are peace and justice.

        Insurance, Oil, Bank, and Defense corporations all have a substantial equity positions in what's supposed to be our Congress.

        by Lefty Coaster on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 08:56:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Obvious comparison (6+ / 0-)

    The assholes on the right who call Sonia Sotomayor a racist are just like the assholes in these pictures calling Jews nazis.

    "I'm going to be on you like a numerator on a denominator." -Principal Skinner

    by dufffbeer on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:54:24 AM PDT

  •  hey (4+ / 0-)

    that guy in the red shirt with white beard holding the zionazi sign looks like Santa Claus .... it's  Adolf Santa Claus/!

    hohoho!....Merrrrrry Christmas! Kill the Jews!

    Adolf Santa: "Have you been a good girl or boy, have you kicked a Jew in the shins?"

    "You have! Here's a present!"

    )

    Even The Best Drummers Get Hungry

    by Keith Moon on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:59:45 AM PDT

  •  hr for broad-brush attack- a glenn beck tactic (10+ / 0-)

    on those who oppose a political ideology. i think karma got this from the same site that hates all anti-war protests, and characterizes all who opposed Bush policies and wanted to make them all look bad.

    this is the same shit that glenn beck uses to defame all those that question the status quo. karma, maybe you can get a slot on Fox News.

    "The sword of murder is not the balance of justice." Mom's Day Statement

    by Tom J on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:05:41 PM PDT

  •  Pathetic. (12+ / 0-)

    Do you really imagine that this sort of smear-job will fly in an activist community, where most people will be intimately familiar with the same tactics that were used to discredit protests against the war on Iraq? You can find some crazy people at any protest, and no one disputes that some people cloak their anti-Semitism in anti-Zionist rhetoric. To leap from that to a generalised accusation against all anti-Zionists, or against anti-Zionism itself, is plainly absurd, which is why you're forced to resort to rhetorical techniques as transparently stupid as this diary.

    Funnily enough, many of the pictures you post aren't even anti-Semitic. A few are exaggerations (at a protest! imagine!) that might understandably cause offence, and some (e.g. 'Globalize the Intifada') bear no resemblance to anti-Semitism of any kind. The second sign from the bottom does not necessarily blame Jews for the Oakland killing - in fact it quite clearly blames the police force. The connection it draws between Gaza and Oakland is not that Jews are responsible for both crimes, but that in both cases "our taxes" are used to kill.

  •  hate crime waiting to happen (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kane in CA, deaniac20, Corwin Weber

    Shit like this is what encouraged James von Brunn and Scott Roeder. The diarist is right for bringing it to our attention, instead of pretending it's not happening.

    "I'm going to be on you like a numerator on a denominator." -Principal Skinner

    by dufffbeer on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:11:28 PM PDT

  •  I must finally scream to humanity (7+ / 0-)

    that this is CRAP!

    This is so stupid, that a guy,  Wilhelm Marr, in 1873 Germany coins a word "anti-semitism" and the whole world goes to shit.

    How can Palestinians be anti-semitic when they are not only semitic in language and ethnicity but also Biblically if one believes in the children of Abraham; Israel and Ishmael?

    Before I get piled on with troll rates, here is where I for the first time announce to the Dkos community that I am in my fifth month of self reflection with the guidance of a Rabbi about the serious decision of conversion to Judaism.

    But this Nazi this Nazi that Anti semite this anti semite that crap has JUST GOT TO STOP!

    "I gonna ride in South Dakota, with two girls in a light blue De Soto, Ya know one's named Jane, the other Blaine but they both had a racing motor..."

    by Jeffersonian Democrat on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:12:34 PM PDT

    •  Oh, come one. This is total BS. (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CN, dufffbeer, blueness, zemblan, thebluecrayon

      How can Palestinians be anti-semitic when they are not only semitic in language and ethnicity but also Biblically if one believes in the children of Abraham; Israel and Ishmael?

      Because that's the definition of "antisemitic" and YOU don't get to redefine words.

      The word's etymology is not the same as its meaning. "Atom" literally means "indivisible", but guess what...

      So if Palestinians hate Jews (which I don't believe anybody here claims) they're antisemitic.

      So where's all the outrage against anti-atheist bigotry?

      by skeptiq on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:22:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  look up the etymology yourself (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        capelza

        you will find that it goes to an ignorant German in 1873 who happened to coin a phrase.

        I am not redefining words,  Wilhelm Marr is.

        Don't give me that bullshit

        It is unfortunate that his flawed term actually stuck, not mine.

        "I gonna ride in South Dakota, with two girls in a light blue De Soto, Ya know one's named Jane, the other Blaine but they both had a racing motor..."

        by Jeffersonian Democrat on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:29:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  asdf (7+ / 0-)

      "How can Palestinians be anti-semitic when they are not only semitic in language and ethnicity but also Biblically if one believes in the children of Abraham; Israel and Ishmael?"

      Anti-Semitism, whatever the technicalities, means 'anti-Jewish racism'. You can dislike the terminology, but when people speak of anti-Semitism, that's what they're referring to.

      •  I know, and that is exactly what (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        capelza, rebus, neroden

        I despise.  Especially since my academics are in languages and so forth.

        But that is what I was trying to say, this whole thing started by someone coining a word.

        It drives me up a wall!

        I hope you can understand

        "I gonna ride in South Dakota, with two girls in a light blue De Soto, Ya know one's named Jane, the other Blaine but they both had a racing motor..."

        by Jeffersonian Democrat on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:25:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Eh? (0+ / 0-)

          > this whole thing started by someone coining a word.

          You serious?

          So where's all the outrage against anti-atheist bigotry?

          by skeptiq on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:27:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •   Wilhelm Marr (0+ / 0-)

            Not to say there wasn't Jewish hatred before hand, there absolutely was,  but he put this specific term into the papers and local jargon and it stuck as a coin word since then.  It's stuck ever since.

            "I gonna ride in South Dakota, with two girls in a light blue De Soto, Ya know one's named Jane, the other Blaine but they both had a racing motor..."

            by Jeffersonian Democrat on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:32:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Eh? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CN, heathlander

              > Not to say there wasn't Jewish hatred before hand, there absolutely was,

              So what's your point again, except that you personally don't like a term?

              So where's all the outrage against anti-atheist bigotry?

              by skeptiq on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:39:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  because the term is used but (0+ / 0-)

                entirely anti-scientific and anti-linguistic, it's just a pet peeve of one who actually studies languages and ethnic groups, ok?

                "I gonna ride in South Dakota, with two girls in a light blue De Soto, Ya know one's named Jane, the other Blaine but they both had a racing motor..."

                by Jeffersonian Democrat on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:43:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So is "atom". And "American" (when referring to (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CN

                  the US only). And thousands of other terms. So what.

                  So where's all the outrage against anti-atheist bigotry?

                  by skeptiq on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:58:39 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, I do try to say "US citizen" (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Jeffersonian Democrat, rebus, skeptiq

                    or "US national", when it matters.

                    South Americans really don't appreciate us calling ourselves "Americans" as a national term.

                    -5.63, -8.10. Learn about Duverger's Law.

                    by neroden on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 01:02:33 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That is an important point (0+ / 0-)

                      when I worked in Latin America for the military, this was a point of contention.  If "gringos" referred to themselves as Americans, it turned off the locals as they considered themselves Americans as well.

                      One of my mentors at UVA self-described himself as a "tough Jew from Brooklyn" and in the UVA gym he certainly was pumping serious iron at 63.

                      But his classes all had a common theme that influences my own academic philosophy: natio, the Latin root of nationalism and nation, means a group of people connected by territory, ethnicity, and language.

                      With this perspective, the US is not actually a nation like revolutionary France, but a nation made up of almost every nation on earth.

                      "I gonna ride in South Dakota, with two girls in a light blue De Soto, Ya know one's named Jane, the other Blaine but they both had a racing motor..."

                      by Jeffersonian Democrat on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 07:25:44 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  I have no idea what the hell you are ranting (0+ / 0-)

                    about.

                    I'll tell you what, I have to give a paper at a conference in Dresden on March 9th.  I can easily change the subject if you want to argue this further and we can present opposing arguments and let our peers decide.

                    "I gonna ride in South Dakota, with two girls in a light blue De Soto, Ya know one's named Jane, the other Blaine but they both had a racing motor..."

                    by Jeffersonian Democrat on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 01:06:17 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  but we do at least have (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Jeffersonian Democrat

                    the word America in the name of our country, everyone else is just on the continent and no one goes around getting referred to by the name of their continent, (except Australians).  So, really, American isn't that bad.

                •  you clearly know nothing whatsoever about (0+ / 0-)

                  linguistics and etymology, and yet you have the gall to claim that this is your area of expertise.  To that, I can only say; codswallop.  

                  two cheers for democracy

                  by ClaryinVT on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 05:16:43 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Limited to online sources at the moment (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    entlord1

                    anti-Semitism
                    1881, from Ger. Antisemitismus, first used by Wilhelm Marr in 1880, from anti- + Semite (q.v.). Not etymologically restricted to anti-Jewish theories, actions or policies, but almost always used in this sense. Those who object to the inaccuracy of the term might try H. Adler's Judaeophobia (1882).

                    http://www.etymonline.com/...

                    It goes without saying that not all Arabs are anti-Semitic and that Arab anti-Semitism doesn't justify bigotry against Arabs, which has reared its ugly head in the United States in the past two years, but an all too common response to criticism of Arab anti-Semitism is to say that Arabs cannot be anti-Semitic because they too are Semites. A typical example can be found in this recent guest column by Samar Ali in the Vanderbilt Hustler, the student newspaper at Vanderbilt University.

                    Furthermore, being that all Arabs are Semites, it seems ludicrous to claim that Arab states produce anti-Semitic propaganda in hopes of destroying the Jewish people.

                    Another example is this piece in the Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram. It's true that anti-Semitism ought to mean "hatred of Semites", including Arabs. That's what we would expect from an analysis of the word into its components. But that isn't what it means. Since the term was coined in the late 19th century, it has been used with the specific meaning of "hatred of Jews". [Note: The OED gives 1881 as the first use of the term in English. German Antisemitismus appeared earlier, in 1880, in Wilhelm Marr's Zwanglose Antisemitische Hefte. He is said to have used the term for some years before it appeared in print.] The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (Fourth edition, 2000) defines anti-Semitism as:
                    1.Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
                    2.Discrimination against Jews.

                    http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/...

                    I guess I am in good company not knowing anything about linguistics and etymology - U Penn, who would've known?

                    "I gonna ride in South Dakota, with two girls in a light blue De Soto, Ya know one's named Jane, the other Blaine but they both had a racing motor..."

                    by Jeffersonian Democrat on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 06:45:51 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Perhaps you could use the older term (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CN, Jeffersonian Democrat, entlord1

          In German "Judenhass" was used before the coining of the rather absurd euphemism "Anti-Semitismus" (IIRC).  "Jew-hating" would be an English translation, and it is much more evocative -- it explains exactly what's so evil about it very quickly.

          -5.63, -8.10. Learn about Duverger's Law.

          by neroden on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:31:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree with that (0+ / 0-)

            as that term is much more forthcoming in its meaning.  There is no second guessing when one uses the word Judenhass

            "I gonna ride in South Dakota, with two girls in a light blue De Soto, Ya know one's named Jane, the other Blaine but they both had a racing motor..."

            by Jeffersonian Democrat on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:33:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Well, I mean, I just (4+ / 0-)

          don't see the significance. We can call it 'anti-Semitism' or we can call it 'anti-Jewish racism' or we can call it 'banana pancakes', it doesn't make any substantive difference to either the phenomenon itself or the correct way to deal with it.

          So, the irritation some people feel about the term "anti-Semitism" has always struck me as misplaced. The problem is not the terminology itself but its frequent use (or more accurately, abuse) as a rhetorical bludgeon to smear critics of Israel.

      •  By using that definition (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Jeffersonian Democrat, entlord1

        an artificial delineation is promoted between peoples that have much more in common than not.  

        It is putting Politics before blood.

        That it has become the established understanding of the term shows how much stronger imagination is than reality.  

        (The reality is we are all here, we all have the same needs, and all must share the same resources.  Imagination is the way we interpret our Religions, our beliefs and tool those beliefs to match our Politics.)

        •  Thanks for covering me under fire (0+ / 0-)

          that's what I wanted to express but wasn't good enough to actually express it.

          "I gonna ride in South Dakota, with two girls in a light blue De Soto, Ya know one's named Jane, the other Blaine but they both had a racing motor..."

          by Jeffersonian Democrat on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:41:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (4+ / 0-)

          "By using that definition an artificial delineation is promoted between peoples that have much more in common than not."

          Well, but why does it matter that Jews and Palestinians share common "blood", whatever that means? It's irrelevant. And I can't imagine that anyone's opinion on the conflict would be changed in the slightest were we to call racism against Jews 'anti-Jewish racism' as opposed to "anti-Semitism".

          You can try to use different terminology if you want, but in my view it's a pointless battle.

          •  I am one who believes that terminology (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            capelza, rebus

            defines the argument.

            You are right that at the moment it is irrelevant.  But I think the goal is to make it relevant, make people on both sides to take a step back and a breath, and simply think.

            "I gonna ride in South Dakota, with two girls in a light blue De Soto, Ya know one's named Jane, the other Blaine but they both had a racing motor..."

            by Jeffersonian Democrat on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:54:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Huh? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Jeffersonian Democrat

            Well, but why does it matter that Jews and Palestinians share common "blood", whatever that means? It's irrelevant.

            Not irrelevant if the feuding factions realize that the enemy are brothers and not inhuman monsters.  

            •  adsf (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lefty Coaster, skeptiq

              "Not irrelevant if the feuding factions realize that the enemy are brothers and not inhuman monsters."

              I'm sorry, but the idea that this will happen by using 'anti-Jewish racism' instead of 'anti-Semitism' is beyond a stretch. People will begin to view each other with more humanity when they can relate to each other not as occupier and occupied but as peaceful neighbours or, ideally, as fellow citizens with equal rights.

    •  "Anti-semitic" means anti-Jew (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CN, Jeffersonian Democrat, blueness

      Period.  Word etymology aside.  That's what it's always meant.  That's what it means today.  

       
      People make this mistake a lot but it's important to be precise, clear and accurate.  Anti-semitism or antisemtism refers to hatred of Jews and no other group.

      You are misinformed if you believe otherwise.  There are plenty of words who have different etymological roots than what is their meaning.  Etymology is not definition.Pineapple doesn't mean apple.  It doesn't mean pine.  It means pineapple.  Bandaid doesn't mean band, it doesn't mean aid.  It means bandaid.  Eggplant doesn't mean egg, it doesn't mean plant.  

      Word origins do not modern definition make.  Discussing the antisemite, semite side issue distracts from and very plainly distorts and covers up the original topic.

      •  Not disputing that at all (0+ / 0-)

        just expressing my irritation at the appropriation of the word semitic and further construction of the word anti-semitic out of a legitimate linguistic and anthropological field and applying it to some racists pseudo-science movement which gained momentum in the late 1800s.

        It actually doesn't distract at all, it is a problem.  When I look at European and German sources written on Indo-European and Indo-Germanic languages, I always have to check the first publishing date.  If it was written in say 1920's Germany, I have to take it with a very big grain of salt.

        The other side of the coin is the misappropriation of "Aryan".  Common wisdom links this to National Socialists ideology but for the linguist or anthropologist, this is a category of northern Persian tribes.

        I don't disagree with anything thing you said, in fact I agree.  I just want to reclaim terms and expose the idiocy of their common usage.  I feel the same way  on how the term "liberal" or "Socialist" is demonized in the US, the meanings are perverted from the original.  I know language changes, but... well, it's just a pet peeve of mine and maybe I should've just kept my mouth shut.

        sorry

        "I gonna ride in South Dakota, with two girls in a light blue De Soto, Ya know one's named Jane, the other Blaine but they both had a racing motor..."

        by Jeffersonian Democrat on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 04:34:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  As a liberal American and a Deist at best (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ella H, renfro, Conure

    I find it hard to swallow the idea of founding a state based on the Bible.  

    According to Judaism, Eretz Israel, or Zion, is a land promised to the Jews by God according to the Bible. (wikipedia)

    Also, with the separation of church and state being fundamental to our system, and often a battle ground between left and right, it is impossible for me to support a system with any kind of official state religion.

    Perhaps that is why there is resistance to the policies of Israel here on the left.

    As far as the left supporting Hamas, it may just be our love of the underdog, the rebel or the resistance fighter in what is clearly an asymmetric war.  We see their extreme position as a reaction to oppression and ignore that it may also contain religiously motivated extremism.  I do not think there is a condoning of hatred against Jews so much as a supporting the fight against a massive injustice (which happens to be perpetrated in the name of Judaism.)

    Do you posit that the situation created by Zionism and the policy-makers of Israel as just?  Do you see Palestinians on an equal footing with Israelis?  Would you support any policy that would make Palestinians and Israelis equals in a land both lay claim to?

    •  Israel DOES separate synagogue and state (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Corwin Weber

      as common law is the law of the land with regards to all non-religious issues, like crime, property, money, government, etc. Non-Jews are not dhimmis, as in most Muslim states either socially or legally. Arab Muslims even serve in cabinets, elected freely, not be a saved seat. While there is a religious aspect to Zionism, it is mostly a nationalist aspect for a people formerly without a land, but never seen as true nationals of the countries in which they formerly lived. Israel separates religion and state far more than any state around it. Lebanon dictates who must be in what positions based on religions. There are atheist Jews: there are no atheist Muslims. The fact is Palestinian Arabs resisted Jewish settlement because al-Husseini thought it was an insult to Islam, not because they wanted the unsettled land Jews bought from absentee landlords and built up, and committed violence against Jews even before Irgun/Lehi were ever founded to resist Husseini. Hell, Husseini not only sided with Nazis, he recruited soldiers for them, and established "Nazi Scouts" in Palestine, with swastika and all. The refugee problem is the result of a war Arab states brought on, whether there was "ethnic cleansing" or the Arabs told them to leave and return when the Jews were in the sea, the fact is the ultimate responsibility lies with the states who declared war after rejecting the partition.

      That being said, even if you're a left-wing person who supports Hamas cause thinking its actually nationalist, when in reality its a big jihad for Allah, the fact is a real anti-war leftist should oppose the wars the PLO and Hamas have fought to eliminate a state legitimately existing and created.

      "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

      by deaniac20 on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:38:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Um, no, it doesn't really.... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        capelza, corvo

        Two words: Family law.  I'm sure you know all about this.

        It's also not getting better, it's getting worse -- those votes of the Knesset to ban Arab parties are a really bad sign.

        -5.63, -8.10. Learn about Duverger's Law.

        by neroden on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 01:00:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Israel is Jewish state. ~ (0+ / 0-)

        A self-proclaimed Jewish state.  That there are some Atheistic Jews is not the issue.

        It is democratic, but not for the occupied areas.  

        The partitioning you speak of was imposed by outside nations after a history of imperialist behavior in the area, so the claims to legitimacy are certainly debatable by those affected.

        There are 10 members of the current cabinet who do not identify as Zionist or Orthodox, out of 120.

        •  And Germany is a German state. nt (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CN, deaniac20

          So where's all the outrage against anti-atheist bigotry?

          by skeptiq on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 01:46:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's not the same, obviously (4+ / 0-)

            The counterpart to Germany as a German state is Israel as an Israeli state, not Israel as a Jewish state.

            Israel defines itself as the state of the Jewish people, not as a state of its citizens. What this means is that an American Jew with no concrete ties to Israel whatsoever is entitled to citizenship while a Palestinian who was born there and whose family have lived and worked the land for generations is not. That's racist, and its at the core of the Israeli state.

        •  "imperialism," "colonialism" (0+ / 0-)

          blah blah blah. You are away the Palestinian Arabs fought alongside the Ottomans, and Husseini was not for a free state for Arabs. He wanted empire too. Whites are not the only imperialists in the world.

          "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

          by deaniac20 on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 01:51:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Israel has no state religion. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CN, deaniac20

          It's a secular state.  

          •  there are some, er (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            capelza, blueness

            civil rights issues with religion though (marriage)

          •  So why does it want to be recognised as a (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blueness, sortalikenathan, soysauce

            Jewish nation by Palestinian groups?

            Why does it keep a register of the religion of its residents? Why does it discriminate in all sorts of ways on the basis of that religious registration? Why does it privilege one particular group in all sorts of way - immigration, jobs, social services, education funding, employment, childcare etc? Why does it take religious conversion for anyone to change their religious registration?

            It's about religion and it's about a particular religion. The privileged religion in Israel is Judaism and the second class religions are all others, much in the same way that Islam was the privileged religion under the Ottomans and caliphs.  

            Now if the state got out of the business of privileging any religious group, I'd be more sympathetic to your secular state argument.

      •  It's important (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blueness

        to point out that religious zionism and political zionism are related but distinct ideologies, and that the state of Israel exists based on the doctrines of political Zionism, Israel was created for political reasons.  it's location was influenced by both political and religious ones, but not it's existence as a state.

    •  Basic Zionism is not based on the Bible. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CN, neroden

      That Israelis live now where they live is an ample justification for Israel's existence without any recourse to ancient mythologies. It would not have justified the creation of the state, but that's a purely historical question now.

      Also, the religious situation in Israel cannot be really compared to that in most Muslim countries. The ethnic component (Hebrew-ness) trumps the religious component (the religion of Judaism). Which is a more or less normal situation for European nation-states. Sure, there is a room for improvement in that respect. But that's about it.

      It's not like Israelis are bound by Leviticus. They have gays and lesbians openly serving in their army.

      So where's all the outrage against anti-atheist bigotry?

      by skeptiq on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:52:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hebrew-ness? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rebus

        Call it Hebrew-ness or Judaism, ethnicity or religion, but whatever makes people from Russia and people from Ethiopia have more rights to a land over the indigenous Palestinians is still not right.

        •  You're not paying attention. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          deaniac20

          That Israelis live now where they live is an ample justification for Israel's existence without any recourse to ancient mythologies.

          Which is just as true of the Americans. And I'm afraid being indigenous did not help the Indians much. Unless you would want to turn over all the US soil to them...

          So where's all the outrage against anti-atheist bigotry?

          by skeptiq on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 01:43:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So since others have done it (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ella H, Conure

            it is okay for Israel?  Is that your point?

            Indigenous people have been f'd over all over the world by colonizing countries with superior technology, vastly greater resources, and most of all a political will that sees nothing wrong with robbing from the unfortunate.

            I would be for returning control of the U.S. to its indigenous people, if they had been allowed to develop and evolve naturally over the last 300+ years instead of having their cultures all but destroyed, with the remnants incapsulated in time and location.

            And saying Zionism is not rooted in Biblical history makes no sense whatsoever.    It was at the foundation of the state of Israel.  Now that Israel exists, Zionism has become a justification for itself?

            •  Who said that anything is OK? (0+ / 0-)

              But are you saying that now Israelis should be f'd over so that some sort of historical justice takes place? Two wrongs to make a right, huh?

              Yes, if essential Zionism is defined as a support for continued existence of the state of Israel, then yes, it is justified by the existence of the same state. There is nothing particularly controversial about this notion. People do live there, most of them are not responsible for what has happened to Palestinians in 1948, so what are you gonna do? Throw them into the sea?

              So where's all the outrage against anti-atheist bigotry?

              by skeptiq on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 02:17:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Ella H

                "Yes, if essential Zionism is defined as a support for continued existence of the state of Israel, then yes, it is justified by the existence of the same state. There is nothing particularly controversial about this notion. People do live there, most of them are not responsible for what has happened to Palestinians in 1948, so what are you gonna do? Throw them into the sea?"

                How would democratising the Israeli state entail throwing Israeli Jews into the sea? Did democratising South Africa entail throwing white South Africans into the sea?

            •  the location of (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              blueness

              Israel in Palestine was obviously influenced by Biblical mythology, however the movement to found the state was based on modern political issues, not religious or biblical mythology.

        •  the point is it's not racism, (0+ / 0-)

          and it's not religious discrimination, it's about nationality, and and as you say yourself, the people were from Russia and Ethiopia,  didn't have "indigenous" status over there.

    •  you're making the mistake of (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueness

      equating Judaism with Zionism.

      According to Judaism

      god is not a factor in secular political Zionism.

  •  Great diary, tipped and recced (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Karmafish

    as it raises the issue of what could happen to our party if this wing of it, which is very common on the "blogosphere," the Huffington Post, some on DKos, and other blogs, takes over the party, the Dems are doomed. We will lose the support of Jewish voters, who were easily the biggest non-black supporters of civil rights, which made our party what it is today. These sentiments, expressed by the sad excuse of a crowd in the pictures, have even made their way into mainstream media. Tom Brokaw, formerly respected journalist asked Obama
       

    What can the Israelis learn from your visit to Buchenwald and what should they be thinking about their treatment of Palestinians?

    I will never watch NBC for news ever again, and will only watch it for sports because I may have to. But for sure, I am done with MSNBC. Until Brokaw apologizes or NBC does, I am boycotting them. This is the danger of the demonization of Israel: it is very real. We must stop it.

    "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

    by deaniac20 on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 12:32:18 PM PDT

  •  How Dare you! (17+ / 0-)

    I believe in Israel but if Zionism is creating settlements that kick out Palestinians who are in houses, then call me an anti-Zionist.

    If Zionism means I have no right to criticize ANYTHING Israel does then call me anti-Zionist.

    If Zionism means painting every Palestinian as a terrorist or that they are not equals in Israel then call me an Anti-Zionist.

    I am not for any violence that Hamas or Hezbollah does. Not by any fricking means. But if Israeli violence against Palestinians who are not members of terrorist organizations isn't just as reprehensible for Zionists then call me anti-Zionist.

    Yes,by your rules I am anti-Zionist which, again by your rules, makes me an Anti-Semite.

    Listen you hateful person! I am Jewish. Perhaps because I am not orthodox that makes me less of one in your eyes. I have cousins that live in Tel Aviv. I am scared that something will happen to them.

    But don't you DARE imply that just because I believe in rights for all and don't think that only Jews should have rights that I am an anti-semite!

    •  most of the people at the rally above, (6+ / 0-)

      whose signs are not pictured, want a real just peace for all in the Middle East. Glenn Beck and his wannabees want to paint all opposition to Israeli policies with the same broad brush.

      "The sword of murder is not the balance of justice." Mom's Day Statement

      by Tom J on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 01:00:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  ContessaKitty - helluva comment. (0+ / 0-)

      I have, since becoming aware of the decades-old problems in the middle east, always felt that Israel has every right to exist within its original borders in peace and security.

      I have never condoned violence by either side in this conflict.

      I favor a fully-sovereign Palestinian state.

      And I also seem to fit perfectly into your snarky "definition" of "anti-Zionist".  And yes, by the rules that Karmafish, deaniac20, and so many others here have dictated...you and I must both be vile, Jew-hating, anti-Semites.

      Not because we hate Jews or because we do things to bring derision down upon the Jewish People.  We are anti-Semites because we DARE to disagree with and (horrors!) criticize the actions, policies, and practices of the government and military of the State of Israel.

      By this same logic, those who disagree with the government of Iran this week must hate all Muslims or all Arabs - however you wish to look at it.

      By this same logic, those who disagree with the government of England or the British Queen must hate all Anglicans.

      By this same logic, those who disagree with the governments of Ireland or Italy must hate all Roman Catholics.

      By this same logic...but it isn't good logic after all, is it?

      The diarist gets ahold of a few pictures taken months ago at some parade in San Fran (actually, he cherry-picked a few out of the website he links to in his shitty "diary"), and decides that he can equate the few people in the pictures to those Progressives who happen to hold opinions that he doesn't like and by that connection he can call anybody an anti-Semite.

      I thank you most sincerely for the comment to which I am responding, and I stand firmly beside you in the opinions you expressed in it.

      Karmafish used to be a fairly reasonable person, but ever since the Gaza Massacre, he has gone 'round the bend and turned himself into a troll.

      Peace.

      Celtic Merlin
      Carlinist

      Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

      by Celtic Merlin on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 12:13:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The left hates all oppression (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    corvo, Lefty Coaster, heathlander, Ella H

    Do you think there is an occupation of Palestinians by Israel?

  •  Not all of these guys are of the left (8+ / 0-)

    Would you consider Mahmoud Ahmadinejad someone of the left?  I certainly would not.  He is as far right as you can get, and some of these Palestinians are as well.

  •  I don't have a problem with Zionism per se. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rebus

    I do have a problem with the imprimatur of the U.S. Government backing financially and militarily this religious based policy.  It puts us in the role of oppressor, and "poisons the well" against vital U.S. interests in the region.  That's why I believe that the POTUS should always play the role of honest broker in this conflict, attempting to broker a solution.  I think the "antisemitic" charge is inflammatory and meant to put anyone disagreeing with policy on the defensive.  BTW, I disagree with the actions of the Chines, Sudanese, Congolese govts as well.

    "Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo

    by lordcopper on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 01:26:19 PM PDT

  •  Lot of assumptions here. How (4+ / 0-)

    do you know all these people are LEFTIES? All that unites them here--insofar as you have ANY knowledge--is antagonism toward Israeli policy twd the Palestinians.

    A) Sheehan is NOT calling the Israelis Nazis, or even necessarily condemning Zionism, as far as you have shown here. She's simply guilty by association, in your book.

    B) The (presumably) Palestinian family could be RIGHT-wingers, like many fundamentalists, including all the damned Brooklyners.

    C) All we know about the guy in the Che hat is that he is a hater and a fool. Che (for one) would have been disgusted with his sorry ass.  

    D) The Gaza/Oakland sign simply compares the plight of (the sign asserts) mistreated Palestinians and Black people in Oakland. (Since poor Black people and the Palestinians tend to get the short end of the stick from the police powers generally, I personally have some sympathy for this person's ability to empathize with other oppressed people thousands of miles away, but--hey--that's just me).

    I can tell you what my Jewish anti-Zionist uncle and all of my childhood Habunim friends would say about this: the people carrying the signs you have chosen to depict here are dickheads. But so are racist Zionist Jews, of which--as we know--there are also many.

    Zionist nationalism sucks, much in the same settler-colony fashion that American exceptionalism does. Anti-semitism sucks, big time. Yes, left anti-semitism exists, but being anti-Zionist hardly makes you an anti-Semite, as millions of anti-Zionists will be glad to tell you. You're not going to talk many people out of questioning Zionism with diaries like this.

    Why are we on this side so much like the other side when it comes to tribe loyalty? Nada Lemming

    by Matthew Detroit on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 04:00:43 PM PDT

    •  I don't think he's calling (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CN, Karmafish

      all anti-Zionists anti-semites, but nearly all anti-semites are anti-Zionists (of course this excludes the evangelicals who want all Jews to go back to Israel when it is saved so they can be killed during Jesus' return, but this number is low)

      "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

      by deaniac20 on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 04:12:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Of course he's calling (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Opakapaka, Lefty Coaster, blueness

        all anti-Zionists anti-Semites - that's what he's been spamming here for months, and that's what this diary contends, even in its title.

        In fact Karmafish has maintained in the past, and presumably still does, that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism.

        "but nearly all anti-semites are anti-Zionists"

        Not necessarily so. You mention the Christian Zionists, but also the European far-right, which is virulently anti-Semitic, has become increasingly supportive of the State of Israel (for example, the Holocaust-denying leader of the BNP has written that "it is in our clear national interest that it [Israel] should survive"). In any case, it's obviously true that anti-Zionism can serve as a cover for anti-Semitism. No one disputes that, and that's not what this diary was about.

        •  don't you link the BNP (0+ / 0-)

          with support for Israel as anything other than trying to hide its anti-semitism, as it has actually tried to appeal to Jews, of course unsuccessfully, and no one buys their new show.

          Most of the Euro far right hates Israel. The lone genuine exception is the Party for Freedom in the Netherlands, which is genuinely pro-Israel, as Wilders lived there for some time and his party has never said anything about race, only religion, which means he is not truly "far-right" as some claim he is. He just hates radical jihad.

          The diarist is simply pointing out that many anti-Zionists use it as a cover for anti-semitism, and that nearly all anti-semites are anti-zionists.

          "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

          by deaniac20 on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 05:29:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Most anti-Zionists ARE anti-Semites... (1+ / 1-)
          Recommended by:
          deaniac20
          Hidden by:
          capelza

          most are too afraid to admit it...or too dishonest.

          "Zionism is a single long action of lifesaving, of snatching great masses of people out of the path of sure extinction." Best-selling author, Herman Wouk

          by RussellNewYork on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 06:06:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  the thrust of such assertions is to place (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            heathlander

            those who question Zionism--and Israel's own racist and counter-productive policies--outside the pale of the debate. But judging from the half-dozen diaries I've seen here it just isn't working. Having come up among liberal and socialist Jews, I (personally) have just rehearsed the arguments for too long to see how it's very successful, though I absolutely acknowledge there is anti-Semitism on the left.

            In fact, this is a propaganda that Israel, increasingly, is losing, as Israel's own market research shows--maybe why some here are pushing the counter-narrative so hard.

            The important thing for Americans, however, is to realize how much Israeli policy has served the US, how the US is a settler colony with the same genocidal (worse than anti-Semitism?) foundation, and that we CONTINUE to support fundamentalism in Saudi Arabia, too, have shithead fundies in our military and among the Repugnikin opposition, tired, white, and stupid as it is. I see Isreali fundamentalism as more corrosive than Zionism; Israel's not going to be uprooted or disappear, though that's another specter the right likes to raise to keep Israelis in a state of paranoia and fear.

            Why are we on this side so much like the other side when it comes to tribe loyalty? Nada Lemming

            by Matthew Detroit on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 08:14:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  When I first read the title (8+ / 0-)

    I thought perhaps you may have had an enlightening encounter, something that made you realise that not all Arabs/Muslims/leftists/liberals hated Israel and Jews and that perhaps you were getting ready to join us in a kumbaya.

    Instead, it's just the same hateful screed that you always come out with. I will only point out that the people in those pictures are just the mirror image of extreme Jews and Israelis who express similar views about Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims. Neither of these sides are respresentative of the hopes and wishes of leftists and progressives in the United States or Israel or the Arab world. I urge you to look again at your diary and reflect upon how far away your views are from these people if you just switched the word Jew for Palestinian.

    You have 2 choices. You can either stay on your side and keep pointing your fingers (as will the other side which will just lead us to an infinite regress) or you can join the people of goodwill who don't wish to keep pointing fingers but who want to build bridges and find solutions. It's up to you.

  •  Thanks for exposing the hate... (3+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    deaniac20, oldskooldem, mattwb
    Hidden by:
    Lefty Coaster

    of the anti-Israel hordes.  It's ripe with base Jew hatred.

    Prepare to be slammed for exposing their movement.

    "Zionism is a single long action of lifesaving, of snatching great masses of people out of the path of sure extinction." Best-selling author, Herman Wouk

    by RussellNewYork on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 06:04:33 PM PDT

  •  I don't think all anti-zionists are anti-semites (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CN, arielle, Kane in CA, deaniac20

    however, those who aren't, especially the ones here, as we have these discussions, need to condemn loudly this kind of rhetoric, these kind of signs and this sentiment within their movement.

    The answer is not to brush off, discount, diminish or belittle these signs or any such sentiments as is plainly seen here.  If you are anti-zionist and you don't hate Jews, you need to condemn this kind of thing.  There are those here who do that but there are many more who do not.  The way to dispel the notions that the two are intertwined is to stand up against hate.  Otherwise it's too hard to tell because brushing off these kind of signs is belittling the real concerns many Jews have.  Brushing it off is saying "we don't care" "your fears are not important" "we will be silent in the face of hate."

    One more thing, for all those who HR-ed this diary and tipped all those diaries with videos of the "hateful Jews" (who turned out to be American, not Israeli as some of the diaries claimed or rather that those Americans reflected on Israelis somehow), for those who tip all those hateful incidents in Israel and post comment smearing all Israelis with small incidents, I fail to see why you should condemn this diary and laud those other diaries.  It's ok to point out hate in Israel, but not ok to point out hate within the anti-Zionist movement?  And if it's not okay to use a broad brush against anti-Zionists, why is it okay to do so against all Israelis?  

    Do you remember during the Israeli election when people here asked Zionists to speak up more loudly against Lieberman?  Well Zionists like myself did that.  Now it's your turn.  Speak up loudly and condemn this hate.

    This diary is a broad brush, but the comments throughout completely dismissing this hate with anti-zionism make me truly think, there's some denial going on here.

    •  You know why I HR'd this diary? (8+ / 0-)

      Because, as you say, it's a broad brush.  Show me one regular, responsible poster in these I/P threads who has ever denied that there is anti-Semitism in the US left.  Next up: Karmafish posts a diary that says the sun rises in the east.

      People here are not belittling the signs; they are belittling karmafish's argument that this is somehow representative of the US progressive movement, or that some whackos holding up crazy and/or stupid and/or anti-Semitic signs means that there is an increase in anti-Semitism.  No.  It means that there are some whackos holding up crazy and/or stupid and/or anti-Semitic signs.  Karmafish is someone who regularly accuses me of being anti-Israel, has accused soysauce of being a terrorist supporter, has accused sortalikenathan of being against peace in the Middle East.  Neither he nor this diary do nothing to move any kind of constructive conversation forward--the kind you yourself claim to want.  

      •  Last sentence should say... (4+ / 0-)

        "Neither he nor this diary do anything to move any kind..."  I don't want a double negative to change the meaning of my sentence.

      •  Totally understand all your points (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Aunt Martha

        As always, you are civil and reasonable.  

        I thought you and karma worked out that anti-Israel accusation?  Could be misremembering but I think the conversation was you saying you believe in a 2-state solution and karma then saying he didn't realize that and saying "right on" or "cool" or something like that.  Or was that someone else?  At any rate, I thought I remembered you not being anti-Zionist.  

        We're like two sides of a scale sometimes, you and I, and it's a good thing IMO.  I do think that a lot of the posts came off as uncaring or dismissive, but actually am relieved to read you see something different.  We still disagree on that however it's good to have someone reasonable and someone who's coming from a different point of view see that the dismissiveness is not necessarily about the subject but about the diarist.  Could be, I do wonder if the results would've been different had it not been a broad brush diary.  The pessimist in me says no.  I think antisemtism is a problem within the anti-zionist movement and ignoring that problem is causing very founded anxiety in the Jewish community.  Just like any movement, it's important for those who are tolerant to step up and say so.    

        As for the fights between karma and the other posters - I missed all that, haven't been keeping up with I/P at all.  Actually kind of glad I missed it - don't have the patience for those kind of fights right now.  Will probably miss a lot more too coming up.  Been lurking in diaries here and there but not all of them.

        •  You want to know what karmafish said to (7+ / 0-)

          me just last night?  Here, take a look.  This is after he uprated a racist diary by deaniac20 about how the Palestinian right of return is a Trojan Horse in which Palestinians will smite unsuspecting Israelis.  I HR'd that diary as well, for reasons you can read about here.

          As for the rest of your comment, thank you for saying that I am civil and reasonable.  There are several people here who I suspect would not agree with that.  I am frankly not feeling very civil and reasonable at the moment.  I am pissed off at stuff like this, but I am trying to control myself.  I think these wild overgeneralizations cheapen the charge of anti-Semitism and make any rational, reasonable and heartfelt discussion of the very real pain felt by many many people on all sides of the equation that much more difficult.  They do nothing but harden already existing divisions, which is the exact antithesis of what it means to me to be part of the left.  And to be part of the Jewish left.

          I think the results would have been very different if it hadn't been such a broad brush diary.  This does not mean that everything would have been peace, love and Woodstock; we both know better than that.  But a real, honest, constructive diary about anti-Semitism among some on the left, just like a real, honest, constructive diary about anti-Arab beliefs among some supporters of Israeli policies and actions in the Middle East, could actually separate out those who are interested in dialogue versus those who are not in all sorts of ways that a diary like this one does not.

          I know you've been "out" a lot lately, and I do want to know how you're feeling.  But I don't know if you've seen any of Meteor Blades' diaries and comments about how he's trying to change the tone on DKos to be more constructive.  One of the things he's asked all of us to do is to try to call out those with whom we agree when they are doing things that do not move conversations forward.  I try to do things like that (see here, for example, complete with more bad typing on my part).  I'm asking you to do the same thing, and see if you can remove your uprate of this diary.  I'm not asking you to change your opinion or walk back any of your comments.  But by uprating this diary, I would argue that you're uprating divisiveness.  And I truly do not think that that's what you want to do.

          •  Looks like I've missed a lot (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Aunt Martha, soysauce

            probably for the better huh?  I peeked into that deaniac diary ever so briefly the other day but couldn't bring myself to read it.  As soon as I read a couple of the comments, I got the heck out of there.    

            As for the rest of your comment, thank you for saying that I am civil and reasonable.  There are several people here who I suspect would not agree with that.  I am frankly not feeling very civil and reasonable at the moment.  I am pissed off at stuff like this, but I am trying to control myself.

            I hear you.  We all feel like that I'm sure.  One of the reasons I've avoided commenting when I'm not feeling well, it's so difficult to control the anger and upset that comes up when reading some of these things.  A couple of my family members are involved in dialogue groups, even in those safe, controlled and much more civil environments, things still get heated.  This is such a hard and emotional issue.  I give you such credit.

            I think the results would have been very different if it hadn't been such a broad brush diary.  This does not mean that everything would have been peace, love and Woodstock; we both know better than that.

            See, this is what I mean when I say it's good reading your comments.  This gave me a smile. Peace, love and Woodstock - heh.  We can only wish.  There surely are some here who succeed in writing diaries without flame-bait.  And surely there are glimmers of real conversation with actual complexity, but for the most part, not so much.

            I have seen some, but probably not all of Meteor Blades comments.  Did see one diary of his too.  It's good of you to step and of Soy and Fire Bad Tree Pretty too.  You all stepped up tonight and didn't flame, just explained things to me like grown-ups and had enough faith in me to think I'd be receptive - that's meaningful.  The comments helped a lot.  And so thanks to all of you.  As you said, my position has not shifted regarding my feelings about the need to address the issues in the diary, but I don't want to add to offending groups of people, making people feel unwelcome here or add to the flaming.  So perhaps those issues will be addressed in more constructive ways.  And even as I regretted actually commenting rather than lurking for the first time in a little while, it actually turned out to be a very good thing.

            Night all.  

            •  I'm very glad that you commented. (3+ / 0-)

              I will be honest.  When I saw that you had uprated the diary, I was confused, disappointed and annoyed, as it seemed to me to go against everything you and I have been discussing about trying to break through language and have constructive conversations.  But when I saw that you had commented, I took that opportunity to respond and, well, here we are, in a much better place.  And I really thank you for listening to me and to others, for explaining your position so thoughtfully, and for removing your uprate of this diary; it means a lot.

              I actually don't think we differ all that much.  We both agree that anti-Semitism needs to be dealt with and that anti-Arab beliefs do as well.  Clearly our initial reactions are not always in sync with each other, but that's okay.  That's what dialogue is about--and it also means a lot to me that in the middle of the flaming that diaries like this generate, you, I and others have been able to carve out a space within which we can have that kind of dialogue, and move toward a greater understanding of each other.

              So how's the tooth situation?

    •  I spend a lot of time arguing with Arabs (10+ / 0-)

      about acceptable discourse on the issue of Palestine.  The folks who I have to call to task in the United States are generally not "on the left".  Many are newer immigrants and, as was pointed out above, have never met a Jewish person in their life.  They are not representative of the Arab progressive position and certainly not representative of the left in general.  That is the problem with this diary.  And please show me one poster on this site that makes these kinds of comments and is tolerate by any side.  It doesn't exist here.

      The diarist and others here, however, make it a sport to make broad brush denigrations of Palestinian, Arabs and Muslims.  

      Of great concern is the targeting of Arab bloggers here by Karma and others.  Palestinian Professor was called an "abdul", a racial slur used in Israel to describe Arabs.  Sortalikenathan has been accused of being against peace and of terrorist sympathies.  Likewise for me.  There are only a handful of us Arabs here.  The intent is to make the place unbearable for us and drive us away.  

      The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

      by soysauce on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 10:51:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for replying to me (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        arielle, Aunt Martha, soysauce

        I didn't see the diary as anti-Arab but now I have to think about that because of your comment.  See, this is the same thing I think that happens to people who uprate things I and others perceive as antisemitic or anti-Israel (as opposed to Pro-Palestinian).  

        Like this comment got me really upset (not exaggerating, not lying.  It's a good thing I got interrupted by real life just as I was about to post a much angrier reply).  I'm disappointed in the uprates:

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        It's like things are invisible to one group and totally obvious to another.  Learning experience, only I wish more people would actually learn and not dismiss.  I took the diary as a swipe at the Americans who are anti-Zionists, not any group of Americans in particular.  Will take another look at the diary now.  

        I do but don't then also don't want to know...who called PP "abdul?"  As for naming names of who is dismissive and things like that, I usually don't do that.  And especially right now, I've been having a pretty bad couple weeks and I'm not about to invite a pie fight with multiple others posters.  It is here though and others see it as well.

        •  I did not see the comment. (3+ / 0-)

          I joined you in HRing it.  

          I appreciate your reflection.  I've learned a lot on this site about Jewish realities.  I hope my presence here helps others learn a little bit about the Palestinian reality.  There should be no tolerance for personal attacks and racism.  

          The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

          by soysauce on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:09:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you for that (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Aunt Martha, soysauce

            That is kinder than you know.  Of course your presence as well as Palestinian Professor's and unspeakable (if he returns) are invaluable.  Unspeakable and I actually sometimes agree on issues.  I know PP's, your views and my are a bit further apart but it is still important to see the human, personal story of (for lack of a better term) "the other side."

            If you feel that this diary is anti-Arab, I will remove my rec.

        •  an additional note (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Aunt Martha, soysauce

          I don't know if this will make you feel any better but these diaries are pretty unbearable to me as a Jewish person many times too.  It shouldn't be like for me or for you.  Things must change and I hope they do.

          Also a question for you, I looked at the pictures above.  Some are of Muslims and/or Arabs, but some are not.  Did you feel that the diary particularly singled out Muslims/Arabs?  Or is it more that your view of the diarist as anti-Arab conflates with the diary subject?  Being serious here, I know this is a basic question but it's important for me to try to understand how you view it.  Any insight would be appreciated.  How is this different from the multitude of diaries that showcased Max Blumenthal's video of Jews in Jerusalem?  Those were tipped and recced by so many here.

          •  I think the main issue for me (5+ / 0-)

            is the diarist and his intent.  I am a huge critic of these kinds of messages at pro-Palestinian rallies.  They do nothing to help my cause and offend me to the core.  I am working for coexistence between Palestinians and Jews in Israel/Palestine.  There is no danger, however, in warning about this type of discourse or making people aware that it exists.  Ditto for the Blumenthal diaries.  

            Karma has not only singled out Arabs in his vitriol.  JonAZJew and Aunt Martha are also labeled in horrendous terms because they are anti-Zionist Jews.  The whole point is to undermine the critics of Zionism.

            The saddest part of this is that within Judaism there is a beautiful humanistic thread that has produced quite a few anti-Zionists.  Political Zionism comes with huge costs.  It is exclusive and crushes the rights of others living under it.  Cultural Zionism is another thing.  There is no reason why Jewish culture can not thrive and prosper in a secular state.  That is why I am anti-Zionist and pro-Jewish.

            The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

            by soysauce on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 11:18:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You know, soysauce, (5+ / 0-)

              I'm truly not sure if I am anti-Zionist or not.  I am highly critical of what can occur in the name of Zionism.  I am highly critical of Israeli actions and policies in the Middle East.  For many years I was for an equitable and just two-state solution.  I still believe in the idea of a free and democratic Israel.  But I also believe that Israel's actions and policies--i.e., the facts on the ground--have made that utopian dream almost an impossibility.  I am also highly aware--and this is where I have really learned so much from you and sortalikenathan and unspeakable and fire bad tree pretty--about how important the Palestinian right of return is.  It's not like I didn't know that before; I did.  But you (and that's the multiple "you") have brought me to a whole other level of understanding and feeling about it for which I cannot thank you enough.  I realize that it's a highly complex situation.  I realize that there are competing, overlapping and intertwining historical narratives of pain and loss.  And I'm starting to think that perhaps the only way to come to terms with all of them is one state in which everyone, no matter their religion, race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc., can feel safe and feel at home.

            •  One more thing, as always. (5+ / 0-)

              I agree with you completely about the intent of those smears against me and JonAZJew.  It seems to me that it's another version of the "you're either with us or against us" mentality of Messrs. Bush, Cheney, et al.  And it's despicable in all of its manifestations.

            •  I think you do a good job at separating (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Aunt Martha, soysauce

              anti-Zionism from antisemitism.  You often make statements like the ones in your comment explicitly stating your intentions about it.

              We don't often agree about Zionism and so I'm not sure what to say about that.  The criticism of Zionism is difficult to take - I'll be honest about that.  No getting around that fact - it's hard and often upsetting.  
              But as far as saying more than that, I'm not comfortable talking about Zionism on DKos.   That's not about you, it's more about the piranha-like environment.  As far as Aunt Martha, I guess I'm confused, I thought she said she was for a 2-state solution, but regardless of that, I don't have a problem with Aunt Martha at all.  She is definitely not anti-Jewish (obviously).  

              On the other hand, I have a big problem with Jon and don't comment in his diaries anymore and the problem is much larger than his anti-Zionist views.  I have tried my best to explain the reasons, the comments are there in his past diaries.  I wish I could wave some magic wand and find the exact right words to help people understand why so many have reacted the way they do to him, but I think it's not something that going to be resolved in that way.  And the way I see it now is that we just have to agree to disagree on it.

              •  I don't mind disagreements. (2+ / 0-)

                I hope you'll agree that the folks who call Jon "Bobby Fisher" and "self-hating" do not help the discussion.  

                I appreciate your thoughts.  I understand that Zionism defines the Jewish experience and that it is difficult to hear criticism of it without feeling personally threatened.  But Zionism from the point of the Arabs has led to one tragedy after another.  

                I mourn the loss of Jewish culture in the Arab world.  We Arabs are poorer for the loss of our Iraqi, Moroccan, Yemeni and Lebanese brothers and sisters.  I wish we could turn back the clock.  The reintegration all peoples of the  region is my ideal.  I will work through education and activism for this goal. I will not support any political system that elevates one ethnic or religious group over another.

                The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

                by soysauce on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 09:05:43 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  You know bigotry, racism and intolerance (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Aunt Martha, thebluecrayon, soysauce

            are unbearable for a lot of us. I've severed friendships with people because of Holocaust denial and anti-Muslim sentiments. I had some one the other day try to talk about some bishop who doesn't think there's enough evidence for the Holocaust to have happen. I was repulsed and disgusted and just had to walk away in the end when my efforts to convince her about the historical weight of evidence failed.

            For me the part of this diary that is anti-Arab is the denial of any understanding that Arabs and Palestinians have any grievances against Israel, that somehow that anti-semitism is coming for no reason whatsoever. The point is that as objectionable and stupid as it is to hold up those signs, holding those signs does not negate the very legitimate complaints that Palestinian and Lebanese have against Israel - ethnic cleansing, alienation, dispossession, occupation etc.

            What gets me just as bothered is the attempt to tar the left broadly with the anti-semitic brush. For example, take the commentary about the 'Globalize the Intifade' picture. The Intifada was not anti-semitic. It was resistance on the part of occupied Palestinians to their oppression. I'm not sure what the person holding the picture means by it but my interpretation of Globalize the Intifada means Globalize the resistance to all oppression. I don't get how that is being anti-semitic.

            As several commenters have pointed out, Karma's continued cries of 'wolf' just habituate us the to cries of anti-semitism. I sincerely hope that never happens.

            •  I so appreciate you explaining some of these (3+ / 0-)

              things.  It helps me understand what to avoid in the future, what to look for, how to be more respectful.  I know it seems basic but I've come think of this process as each of us learning a different language.  I immediately understand some things to be offensive and have to think to explain why.  Other people like yourself and soysauce immediately understand other things to be offensive and also have to explain why.  In time, ideally, each of us will know at least a little bit about the other's "language."  Best analogy I could come up with.

              That is apalling that you've had to confront so much hate and I truly commend you on taking a stand.

              I don't agree that there's a legitimate basis for antisemitism but maybe that's not what you're trying to say.  However, I do understand that you and others wish there would be more of a complexity to the criticism and acknowledging of legitimate critique.  There is legitimate criticism of Israel's government or political parties.  Once it expands to all Israelis or all Jews, then it is a serious problem.

              In my response to capelza, I explained a little bit (but not entirely) about how I view karma's reactions.

              http://www.dailykos.com/...

              I understand that most people don't see it that way and share your hope that people do not become immune to such hatred.  What is important to point out IMO, is that until the majority of us take a stand and say that hate is not an acceptable method of discourse here, clashes like the ones in this diary will continue to dominate the conversation.  Dialogue about I/P under the best scenarios is hard work, is angering, is contentious.  But we can't even get to that kind of thing if people don't have a safe environment for such discussions.  I know many people would like myself and others to ignore the hateful comments, but I, for one, won't.  It's that important to me.  Probably part of the problem is that people don't understand when they are unintentionally repeating or uprating something offensive.  There's work to be done but there are a lot of people here who are up to that challenge on their best days.

              •  I do understand a little where people (5+ / 0-)

                like karma and deaniac20 are coming from. That kind of extreme defensiveness does have some sort of foundation since Jews as a group have been so persecuted and endured such enormous suffering. So they're running on emotion. From that, they really don't see how their discourse here could be bigoted or intolerant.

                Same goes with those people pictured with the 'Jews are terrorists' signs. I'm assuming by their dress they are Palestinian and there's no way for us to know how they have suffered at the hands of Jews and Israelis. They're also running from emotion and in that sate it's easy to go to extremes in their views also.

                It's just that I don't see the passion that informs either side to be one that is productive - it won't bring about a peaceful solution. Peace will only come about by working to put the blame game behind us and find ways to live and work together. And talk to each other. I'm not really interested in blaming or denouncing either side but getting them to see the error in their thinking.

                Just to clarify - I don't think that there is any excuse for anti-semitism or any other form of prejudice or bigotry. But the diary sets up opposition to Israeli and Jewish actions without context or history, making it seem like the opposition to the actions of Israel arose in a vacuum without any foundation. My point is that there is a legitimate foundation for opposing the actions of Israel but no foundation for the types of smears that are written on those signs. I object to 'Jews are terrorists' just the same as I'd object to 'Palestinians are terrorists'. Furthermore, I wouldn't even use the term terrorist as I feel it is completely meaningless - but that's another topic altogether.

              •  I don't think that there are many people (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                soysauce

                who want you or anyone to ignore the hateful comments.  At least, I don't think there is anyone responsible here who would say that.  Speaking solely for myself, what I'm saying is that there are lots of spurious charges of anti-Semitism and anti-Israel(ism?) thrown around by certain people in these diaries that end up becoming like the boy who cried wolf.  And that accomplishes nothing except to diminish the reality and cruelty of both isms.

        •  I hadn't seen that comment either, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          thebluecrayon, soysauce

          as I've skipped a lot of this, but I agree with you 100% in your analysis of it and have HR'd it and your comment explaining why you did so.

          •  I cannot type any more. (3+ / 0-)

            It is late and I have to go to bed.  I uprated your comment.  I didn't HR it.  I'm glad you knew what I meant!  I also really appreciate you removing your uprate of this diary.  I would really like it if we could talk more soon.  I know we don't always agree, but I'm very glad we can talk to each other across our disagreements and come to an understanding.

  •  You will hear silence..cos they agree... (0+ / 0-)

    with these marchers in their dark hearts.

    "Zionism is a single long action of lifesaving, of snatching great masses of people out of the path of sure extinction." Best-selling author, Herman Wouk

    by RussellNewYork on Sat Jun 20, 2009 at 10:00:21 PM PDT

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