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With the Secretary General of the United Nations, the Organization of American States, the Obama Administration, and the European Union all condemning the coup in Honduras, it's worth drawing attention to a couple of serious issues of which all should be aware. The first is that, although the coup leaders claim to be defending their national constitution against a purported attempt by ousted President Manuel Zelaya to undermine it, they themselves have undermined it, and not only by overthrowing their elected president. For it appears that the new "president" installed by the coup leaders may not meet the constitutional requirements to hold that office.

According to the New York Times:

The military offered no public explanation for its actions, but the Supreme Court issued a statement saying that the military had acted to defend the law against "those who had publicly spoken out and acted against the Constitution’s provisions."

But there seems to be a little problem. Beyond even the whole idea of a coup against an elected president. From the Honduran Constitution:

ARTICULO 238.- Para ser Presidente de la República o Designado a la Presidencia, se requiere:

  1. Ser hondureño por nacimiento;
  1. Ser mayor de treinta años;
  1. Estar en el goce de los derechos del ciudadano; y,
  1. Ser del estado seglar.

In English, that first requirement is that the president be someone who was born in Honduras. But according to this website, the man installed by the coup, Roberto Micheletti, was born in Lombardy! As in Italy! If true, not only can Micheletti not be installed as president, he can't even be elected to be president!

The second important point is that while, as LithiumCola has pointed out, President Obama's condemnation of the Honduran coup represents a paradigmatic change in U.S. policy towards the overthrow of a left wing Latin American government, the U.S. does appear to bear responsibility for having trained the leader of the coup. According to School of The Americas Watch:

General Romeo Vasquez, the head of the armed forces who led the military coup against the democratically elected president Zelaya, is a graduate of the notorious School of the Americas (SOA).

What is the SOA?

As explained by this site, jointly operated by the Center for International Policy, the Latin American Working Group, and the Washington Office on Latin America:

The School of the Americas had been questioned for years, as it trained many military personnel before and during the years of the "national security doctrine" -- the dirty war years in the Southern Cone and the civil war years in Central America -- in which Latin American militaries ruled or had disproportionate government influence and committed serious human rights violations. Training manuals used at the SOA and elsewhere from the early 1980s through 1991 promoted techniques that violated human rights and democratic standards. SOA graduates continue to surface in news reports regarding both current human rights cases and new reports on past cases.

And according to Global Security:

Critics have labeled the School of the Americas a "school for dictators." The ten former Latin American heads of state who attended the School of the Americas include General Manuel Antonio Noriega of Panama, military ruler from 1983 until his ouster from power by U.S. forces in December 1989. In 1992, Noriega was convicted and sentenced in a U.S. Federal court to 40 years in prison on drug trafficking charges, while subsequently he was sentenced in Panama for the 1985 murder of a Panamanian opposition leader and for the October 1989 murder of a Panamanian military officer who led an unsuccessful coup against him. Another Panamanian leader who attended the School of the Americas is General Omar Torrijos who emerged as Panama's de facto political leader after the National Guard overthrew the elected civilian government of Arnulfo Arias in 1968, and ruled either as official head of government or de facto political leader until his death in a plane crash in 1981. While many observers would label Torrijos a populist leader, others criticize the general for his repression of opposition sectors.

Two additional School alumni who overthrew elected civilian governments are Major General Guillermo Rodriguez (1972-76), who overthrew Ecuadorian President Jose Maria Velasco Ibarra, and Major General Juan Velasco Alvarado (1968-1975), who overthrew Peruvian President Fernando Belaunde Terry. Breaking with the pattern of previous military leaders in these two countries, Rodriguez and Alvarado initiated extensive periods of direct military rule, seven years in Ecuador and twelve years in Peru.

The six remaining Latin American military rulers who attended the School of the Americas consist of two each from Argentina, Bolivia, and Honduras, all of whom succeeded military rulers.

In other words, this coup was carried out by a graduate of a sinister U.S.-backed terrorist training school, for the purpose of overthrowing a legally elected president, who has been replaced by a man who may be constitutionally forbidden from ever holding the office of president. All international bodies and agencies, and every nation in the world that claims to support the concept of democracy, has every valid reason to stand firm against this coup. It's important that they know it, that the coup leaders know that they know it, and that everyone knows that the world will not allow it.

Update [2009-6-29 14:18:3 by Turkana]: The English Wiki is wrong, and Micheletti appears to be native born, of Italian descent. The US/SOA link stands. (h/t Geekesque)

Update [2009-6-29 14:39:11 by Turkana]: Betson08 links the OAS statement, condemning the coup.

Originally posted to Laurence Lewis on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 05:19 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  of course (140+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DeminNewJ, chrississippi, itsbenj, decembersue, alisonk, TrueBlueMajority, Jay C, eeff, ZAPatty, Gustogirl, TheMomCat, joynow, bronte17, TracieLynn, Euroliberal, grassroot, chuckvw, buckhorn okie, high5, pollbuster, sberel, nargel, wader, Dallasdoc, BoxerDave, Nemagaiq, betson08, weasel, xyz, valadon, vacantlook, eztempo, joanneleon, humphrey, Tinfoil Hat, David R, mjd in florida, PBen, Militarytracy, Simplify, Mumphrey, Sandino, The Raven, LithiumCola, Indiana Bob, viscerality, Land of Enchantment, Jim R, Jim P, esquimaux, Nightprowlkitty, Pinko Elephant, sherlyle, Ellicatt, borkitekt, tecampbell, nilocjin, Crashing Vor, Sagebrush Bob, bleeding heart, Demena, ER Doc, profh, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, means are the ends, blueintheface, Nulwee, PatriciaVa, old wobbly, power2truth, newpioneer, jayden, vbdietz, Immigrant Punk, cadejo4, jnhobbs, Moderation, cloudbustingkid, Neon Mama, Empower Ink, ImpeccableLiberalCredentials, jgilhousen, MKinTN, davidseth, zerone, Lujane, hwmnbn, TH Seed, rubine, Horsefeathers, luckylizard, BYw, Athenocles, In her own Voice, shortgirl, multilee, socalmonk, holger smed, banjolele, h bridges, Patch Adam, mkor7, JesseCW, Texas Revolutionary, sanglug, notksanymore, Leftcandid, catilinus, kfd313, NCrissieB, sulthernao, ppl can fly, rb137, Obamican08, ArtSchmart, roadbear, Mikeguyver, publicv, amk for obama, chrome327, Lost and Found, Anak, Dexter, NY brit expat, shenderson, ricardomath, aclockworkprple, Johnny Q, Nada Lemming, CA Berkeley WV, DudleyMason, JerichoJ8, al ajnabee, Colorado is the Shiznit, Lost Left Coaster, lizard people, Empty Vessel, enhydra lutris, Edgewater, ArthurCrandall

    a wsj columnist approves...

  •  He was elected unanimously by the Congress (7+ / 0-)

    which overwhelmingly ratified the coup, back door impeachment.

    If outsiders try to bring him back, the rest of the government will oust him again. Either that or the sonofabitch will become a foreign-backed dictator.

  •  Bless the hearts of SOA Watch.... (22+ / 0-)

    they do the work of the saints.

    And thank you for the info-rich diary!

    They tortured people To get false confessions To fraudulently justify Invasion of Iraq!

    by Immigrant Punk on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 05:29:07 AM PDT

  •  We already have one diary with similar sensation. (7+ / 0-)

    In other words, this coup was carried out by a graduate of a sinister U.S.-backed terrorist training school, for the purpose of overthrowing a legally elected president, who has been replaced by a man who may be constitutionally forbidden from ever holding the office of president.

    SOA is training men to become terrorists?  Really?   Where's the evidence of that?  Evidence, I said.  Not speculation.

    I don't claim to be an expert on the SOA, but I certainly know that the evidence presented in this diary isn't much more compelling than the evidence presented in yesterday's similar-diary by ProgressiveSouth- "BREAKING: Leaders of Honduran coup trained in U.S.".

    Furthermore, back to General Vasquez- he was sacked last week because he refused to disobey the Supreme Court and by extension refused to obey Zelaya.  It's not like he decided that he wanted to be in charge and therefore had his men arrest Zelaya.  The Supreme Court and the Congress are the ones who led this thing.  Why it's being portrayed by some as a strictly-military coup is beyond my understanding.

    I am surprised by how sensational your title is.

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

    by Setrak on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 05:31:37 AM PDT

    •  learn a little about soa (33+ / 0-)

      its history is no secret. rep. joe kennedy tried to shut them down, ages ago. they merely changed their name.

      and the supreme court doesn't seem to care about its own constitution, if it's backing an unconstitutional president.

      •  Where's his birth certificate? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MNPundit

        I'm not going to defend the establishment of Honduras, just like I'm not going to defend Zelaya's high-stakes game of chicken that led up to this.

        Ultimately, the situation sucks.

        "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

        by Setrak on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 05:36:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  um (16+ / 0-)

          the un, the oas, the eu, and the obama administration back zelaya. i'll stick with them.

        •  google, wikipedia (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BYw

          i don't like appeals to authority arguments and we use too many on this site -- but sometimes it is because some things are a given.

          still the question is fair. there are too many examples to cite, but here's a one result from using the google:

          As its role became better known in the 1980s, the U.S. Army School of the Americas (SOA) became a symbol of U.S. foreign policy perversities in Latin America. By then, many graduates of the school were already infamous in their own countries for their leadership of, or involvement in, savage counterinsurgency campaigns and human rights atrocities. The SOA was known in the region as the School of Assassins or the School of Coups. The names of SOA graduates are familiar to Latin Americanists: dictator Hugo Banzer of Bolivia, who took power in a bloody coup; Leopoldo Galtieri, Argentine general and member of the "dirty war" junta in the 1980s; Roberto d'Aubuisson, leader of Salvadoran death squads; General Efra�n R�os Montt, overseer of massacres of indigenous peasants as dictator in Guatemala; Chilean Miguel Krassnoff, DINA officer and torturer; the list goes on. The U.N. Truth Commission on El Salvador found that 60 Salvadoran officers were responsible for the worst atrocities of that country's dirty war; more than two-thirds were SOA...

          The sleep of reason brings forth monsters.

          by beijingbetty on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:02:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Preemptive critique (0+ / 0-)

        Why do you hate America?  

        "Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House." -Bob Herbert

        by Nada Lemming on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 09:56:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I'd like to see some evidence, too (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Can Tab, i8pikachu, Setrak, MGross

      I mean some Downing Street Memo or DOJ Toture docs type of evidence.  So far all I've found are essays and analyses.  Not to say there is no evidence nor that any of these claims lack validity, I just would like to see the documents.

      "First, we take Manhattan! Then we take Berlin!" -Leonard Cohen

      by Jeffersonian Democrat on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 06:05:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There are a lot of people who early-on (6+ / 0-)

        framed this as a military coup in the spirit of South American history between the 50's and 80's, complete with shadowy U.S.-ties.

        What this situation is is one massively (bleep)ed up situation.  Both sides screwed up, but one side clearly screwed up more by over-reaching.  They should have gotten the memo when we told them on Saturday that they would not be supported or recognized.

        They had the votes in the Congress to impeach Zelaya.  They had the court order that Zelaya defied.  They could have tried settling this in a court or law or in the halls of Congress.  Instead, they have screwed up, and it'll probably cost human lives.

        What ticks me off is the framing of this as having a "good side" and a "bad side".  It's much more complicated than that, and the pushing of unfounded-theories of conspiracy does nothing to heighten anyone's general understanding of just how screwed up this situation is, and how easily it could become worse than it already is.

        "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

        by Setrak on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 06:11:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If Honduras had an Impeachment Process (13+ / 0-)

          that would have some legitimacy.

          It doesn't.

          They didn't impeach him, btw.  They voted that he was "Mentally Incompetent".

          No ruling that he did anything wrong, just a claim that' he's crazy.  Followed by waving around a forged Resignation letter to try to justify it.

          Crush the Horror.

          by JesseCW on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 06:18:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly, (0+ / 0-)

            the establishment in Honduras proved itself incompetent and out of touch with the 21st century.

            "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

            by Setrak on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 06:22:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I always take a step back when it comes to SOA (6+ / 0-)

          I was one of those "assholes" as it is politely referred to around here training soldiers in Central America, including Honduras, in the role of a military advisor on what we called FID (Foreign Internal Defense), as well as combat missions in Panama while assigned to 7th Special Forces Group.

          We used a lot of SOA materials and trained in basic infantry tactics, patrolling, and counter-insurgency.  Never once did I ever come across anything that had to do with torture.  In fact we were obligated to report it to the Embassy if we witnessed it.  All those manuals and training aids were US TRADOC manuals used by the Army to train our own troops just translated into Spanish.

          Now, did SOA have some metaphorical dungeon in the basement at Ft. Benning?  I wouldn't know but would be interested to see that documentation.

          But knowing those militaries from my own experience, I wouldn't take it past them to take what we taught and turn it around.  Nor do I believe for an instant that they need the US to teach them torture, I think they have a pretty good handle on it since the days of the Conquistidors, if anything, we may learn a thing or two from them.

          "First, we take Manhattan! Then we take Berlin!" -Leonard Cohen

          by Jeffersonian Democrat on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 06:28:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The issue more broadly (15+ / 0-)

            is that the U.S. was doing the wrong thing in most of these countries. We KNEW that the people we were bringing to these schools were death squad leaders, tyrants and wanna-be dictators (which at least seven SOA graduates went on to become).

            We knew this because we were also funding and supporting their dirty work in countries in like Chile, El Salvador, Honduras and Nicaragua, and knew exactly to what use our training would be applied.

            Our country's intervention in Latin America during the Cold War will stand as one of the darkest chapters in history, and SOA was a key part of those horrors which left hundreds of thousands dead.

            Blogging for a Progressive South // www.southernstudies.org

            by ProgressiveSouth on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 06:45:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I would still like to see (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              milkbone, Lujane, i8pikachu, Setrak

              some direct linkage, some leaked documents.  Otherwise, why stop at SOA, why not the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and Schools as well.

              Look, anyone can take a US Infantry platoon and turn their training, with the right indoctrination, into a death squad.  There is nothing special in the training, just the political ideology driving the military.

              As far as policy makers conducting the ole nudge nudge wink wink with Latin American right wing governments, you would get no objection from me on that point.  As I said, we were obliged to report human rights violations: yet it was always whispered that it would never happen before our eyes and we were kept out of situations, by the host country, where we might.  Because then, by US law, they lose their military aid.

              Like I said, I would be very much interested in seeing the damning evidence beyond correlation.  Not that they didn't take legit training and put it to their own uses, but I want to see where we were training them to do that.  That's the damning evidence that will, or should, shut down that school.  But the Army is not going to shut down training based on accusations and conjecture, no matter how strong the circumstantial evidence is.

              Unless, of course, it can be shut down politically in the eyes of public opinion.

              Until then, the school will keep training and SF teams will still deploy to train them.

              "First, we take Manhattan! Then we take Berlin!" -Leonard Cohen

              by Jeffersonian Democrat on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 06:58:52 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The Washington Post broke this story in 1996 (10+ / 0-)

                Releasing parts of the SOA training guide which specifically included things we'd call torture. Other media outlets followed up with more evidence:

                http://www.soaw.org/...

                But I think you're still missing the role SOA played. It RECRUITED human rights abusers from Latin America to come to its school, knowing full well how they'd put the training to use.

                Our government FOLLOWED UP with SOA grads by providing further training, logistical support and money to carry out their dirty deeds.

                For Latin American death squad leaders, this wasn't a fun study abroad field trip. They knew, and the U.S. knew, it had a geopolitical objective: to recruit, train and support forces sympathetic to U.S. interests, no matter how many people they murdered.

                We will never be able to wipe our hands of that reality.

                Blogging for a Progressive South // www.southernstudies.org

                by ProgressiveSouth on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:11:02 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  None of these are fun study abroad (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  milkbone, Lujane

                  What it is is a ticket punch for the ruling elite to be groomed for governance, not just military schools either.

                  SOA doesn't recruit, that is the CIA's biz.  They're also the ones who cherry pick the candidates and follow ups.

                  SOA was set up as military professional development at different stages, like a US officer going to basic course, advance course, war college, etc. as well as some spec war.  These guys went to Ft. Bragg as well.

                  Now, having said that I have no illusions about the CIA or policy makers, Dick Cheney was Sec Def then.  I am not denying what you say.

                  And I am not prepared to deny that SOA had "extracurricular" courses either.

                  My position is this: get the goods on those "extracurricular courses" and you have a case.  Connecting dots works great for intel work, but as we see with GITMO, has a snowballs chance in hell in a court of law.

                  Like I said, I appreciate the links and will be reading them this week.  If anything pops up that I think is shadowy, I shoot you an email about where to focus, deal?

                  "First, we take Manhattan! Then we take Berlin!" -Leonard Cohen

                  by Jeffersonian Democrat on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:28:58 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Thanks for being skeptical of the knee-jerk... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Jeffersonian Democrat

                    ....style that we are automatically to blame because of SoA. Perhaps we are, but a little more patience and evidence based arguments in this situation please.

                    There's something attractive about invincible ignorance... for the first 5 seconds.

                    by MNPundit on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:46:00 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That was never our claim (6+ / 0-)

                      I don't know about others, but we first reported on the coup/SOA connection yesterday because it's an important backdrop to what's happening in Honduras.

                      As this thread shows, most people have never heard of SOA and don't know about the history of U.S. intervention in Latin America.

                      The people of Honduras are much more attuned to this history, how the U.S. has never been a neutral player, and the deadly consequences of this intervention.

                      At the very least, it is likely important to many in Honduras that two of the key leaders involved in their country's coup have at least one important link to the U.S. -- the SOA/WHISC.

                      We have no evidence that this suggests any U.S. involvement in the coup; that's not really the point.

                      It points to a larger question about the consequences of U.S. involvement in Latin America -- intended and unintended. To people in Honduras, these details matter a great deal. Given that these are our tax dollars, it should matter to us as well.

                      Blogging for a Progressive South // www.southernstudies.org

                      by ProgressiveSouth on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:57:15 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Point taken... (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Jeffersonian Democrat

                        ...but after reading more, including Spanish language reports I am more confused than ever over the situation.

                        So let me just urge massive caution though it does appear to me right now, that the right thing was done for the wrong reason and via the wrong methods.

                        There's something attractive about invincible ignorance... for the first 5 seconds.

                        by MNPundit on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:07:03 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  Did you even read the link? (5+ / 0-)

                    From "U.S. Instructed Latins on Executions, Torture" by Dana Priest, published in the Washington Post (that liberal rag) September 21st 1996:

                    Used in courses at the U.S. Army's School of the Americas, the manual says that to recruit and control informants, counterintelligence agents could use "fear, payment of bounties for enemy dead, beatings, false imprisonment, executions and the use of truth serum," according to a secret Defense Department summary of the manuals compiled during a 1992 investigation of the instructional material and also released yesterday.

                    "If you can't lower heaven, raise hell!" - Mother Jones

                    by al ajnabee on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:48:01 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  SOA/WHISC (5+ / 0-)

            Now, did SOA have some metaphorical dungeon in the basement at Ft. Benning?  I wouldn't know but would be interested to see that documentation.

            Yes, at one time. I wouldn't know if they still do. It's been thirty five years, but yes, SOA taught torture.

        •  Zelaya sought a people's referendum (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Turkana, Riff

          to allow change to the single four-year one term limit for the executive branch. The court said a people's referendum was illegal and the military opposed it.

          Eight cabinet members were also arrested including the Foreign Minister. So, this was basically a sweep of the entire executive branch to wipe it away.

          Zelaya, elected to a non-renewable four-year term in 2005, had planned a vote Sunday asking Hondurans to sanction a future referendum to allow him to run for re-election in the November polls.

          The planned referendum had been ruled illegal by the country's top court and was opposed by the military, but the president said he planned to press ahead with it anyway and ballot boxes had already been distributed.

          The Supreme Court said Sunday that it had ordered the president's ouster in order to protect law and order in the nation of some seven million people.

          ...

          A leading government official, Armando Sarmiento, told AFP that at least eight cabinet members were also detained including Foreign Minister Patricia Rodas.

          <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

          by bronte17 on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 08:32:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Revisionist history here. (0+ / 0-)

          They both had a court ruling removing Zelaya and had Congress approve his successor.

    •  This is one of the most well-documented (16+ / 0-)

      human rights issues around. The School of Americas -- renamed in 2000/2001 because of growing human rights concerns -- has trained over 60,000 soldiers and police personnel in Latin America.

      Thousands of these graduates have been directly tied to death squads, torture, killings of missionaries and other aid workers, kidnappings and other gross human rights abuses.

      Every year, over ten thousand human rights activists descend on the school in Fort Benning, GA to demand it be closed for its role. The fact that the controversy isn't more widely known is a failure of our media.

      Blogging for a Progressive South // www.southernstudies.org

      by ProgressiveSouth on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 06:39:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Of this there is no doubt (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Can Tab, Lujane, i8pikachu, Setrak

        Thousands of these graduates have been directly tied to death squads, torture, killings of missionaries and other aid workers, kidnappings and other gross human rights abuses.

        Thousands of those graduates also attended Yale, Harvard, Tufts, and Georgetown.  There are no demonstrations about the national security studies or neo-liberal economic policies they learn there that have also devastated the region in abject poverty.

        What I want to see are the torture manuals themselves, I want to see the training plans.  We've seen them for our own military but they were created only in 2002 and we now know that they were not just laying around, they had to be reverse engineered and written up.

        "First, we take Manhattan! Then we take Berlin!" -Leonard Cohen

        by Jeffersonian Democrat on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 06:48:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But SOA has had a uniquely dangerous role (12+ / 0-)

          I completely agree that the tyrants and murderers supported by the U.S. in Latin America have had many sources of support -- for money, ideas and strategy -- to carry out their deadly aims.

          But it's also clear that SOA has had -- and sadly, still has (witness Colombia) -- a unique role in providing the military, police and vigilante elements with training to more effectively kill and maintain political control.

          Here's the page at SOA Watch that reports on the SOA training manuals that include elements that we'd call torture: http://www.soaw.org/...

          Blogging for a Progressive South // www.southernstudies.org

          by ProgressiveSouth on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:03:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks, that is what I was asking for (3+ / 0-)

            and couldn't find that page from their homepage.

            Just being cautious here with a cursory look.  These look exactly like what our own soldiers learn at Fort Huachuca at MI school or at Ft. Bragg JFKSWCS where I went to school, they even state:

            U.S. Army Training Manuals used at the SOA

            In English and Spanish. The translated, English-language manuals are available here in HTML format only. The Spanish-language manuals are available here in both PDF and HTML formats. The PDF's are scanned images of the original manuals. Click on "html" to view them online, or click on "pdf" to download them. You wil need Adobe Reader to download them. Click here to download it for free if you do not already have it.

            Exactly, so far, what I stated up thread.  It still appears that these manuals are Spanish translations of US Army training and doctrine, i.e. our own methods, which (before 2002) still tended to officially abide by Geneva.

            However, thank you for the link as I want to see myself if anything is inserted in there that does not conform to Geneva or Human Rights.

            I've got some reading for this week.  If I see something, you have a convert and not a hesitant skeptic.

            "First, we take Manhattan! Then we take Berlin!" -Leonard Cohen

            by Jeffersonian Democrat on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:17:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Let me know what your take is (4+ / 0-)

              after reading, I'd be interested to hear your perspective on it.

              Blogging for a Progressive South // www.southernstudies.org

              by ProgressiveSouth on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:23:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I have a feeling (4+ / 0-)

                the crown jewels will be in the CIA manuals, if it isn't redacted, rather than the Army.  My expectation is that the Army manuals will be on the up and up, at least on a CYA technicality.

                But I'm interested in perusing them.

                I just want to say, please don't take my wanting to have evidence and a denial of atrocities.  Where there is smoke there is fire.  I'm saying so far, there is so much smoke we can't find the flame yet.

                It would really help the Army if they would release documented training plans and course materials and say "see, this is what we teach".  The transparency would do a world of good in PR.  You can even see this stuff on the Ft. Huachuca website with some digging.

                Until then, people have a right to be questioning.

                "First, we take Manhattan! Then we take Berlin!" -Leonard Cohen

                by Jeffersonian Democrat on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:44:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  haven't they changed the name in shame? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Turkana

        SoA was so well known worlwide as a torture school I think they changed its name.

      •  That doesn't make it any more legitimate. (0+ / 0-)

        Most of the opposition to SoA is bogus.  Flat out.

        They train police forces and soldiers for Latin America.  The mere fact that some of them later went on to commit atrocities is not statistically significant.

        Anyone who had trained those people would have found roughly the same number went on to commit crimes.  

      •  I stand by that title, (0+ / 0-)

        because Hugo Chavez can really screw things up even more by using cowboy-diplomacy and by giving the Honduran establishment a foreign threat which they can use to shore up domestic support.

        Chavez is talking about Honduras in even more bombastic ways than John McCain was about Iran.  That's a cause for concern.

        "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

        by Setrak on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:00:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Baloney. (7+ / 0-)

          Chavez's talk may be bombastic, but compared to the powderkeg of Iran/Middle East, this is nothing for the US to worry about.

          The problem is , US foreign policy in Central America has been that of arrogant thugs for the last 100+ years.

          "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

          by bobdevo on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:23:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And... (0+ / 0-)

            The problem is , US foreign policy in Central America has been that of arrogant thugs for the last 100+ years.

            Is not the same true of Iran?

            "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

            by Setrak on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:28:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You mean our foreign policy vis-a-vis Iran? (9+ / 0-)

              Yep - in fact, if we had not overthrown Mossadegh in 1953, there's a very good chance Iran would now be a lot like Turkey - a secular democracy with a predominantly Islamic populace.

              The difference is there is no powderkeg involving the Israeli right wing or the possibility of a worldd-wide conflagration in Honduras.

              Oh, sure, the people will suffer, but we've been okay with that for 100 years. As Marine corps Gen. Smedly Butler said in 1935:

              1935 Common Sense article:

                 "I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purifly Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-12. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras "right" for American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested... . Looking back on it, I feel I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three city districts. We Marines operated on three continents."

              "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

              by bobdevo on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:37:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  hahaha, the old pot = kettle trick (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Turkana, Nightprowlkitty

        that's funny npkitty.

    •  Oh, Cheeses K. Rist . . . where have you been (9+ / 0-)

      for the past 50 years:

      Between 1946 and 2001, the SOA trained more than 61,000 Latin American soldiers and policemen. Some of them became notorious for human rights violations, including generals Leopoldo Galtieri, Efraín Ríos Montt and Manuel Noriega, dictators such as Bolivia's Hugo Banzer, some of Augusto Pinochet's officers[1][2], and the founders of Los Zetas, a mercenary army for one of Mexico's largest drug trafficking organizations, the Gulf Cartel.

      "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

      by bobdevo on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:20:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Seems to me (4+ / 0-)

    this character got into a game of "chicken" with the rest of the government and lost.  He defied the courts and was thrown out.  The result is not a junta, but a transition.  An ugly business, to be sure, but Zelaya emits a strong odor of Chavista arrogance.

    When a faction is extinguished, the remainder subdivideth.

    by bugscuffle on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 05:41:27 AM PDT

  •  The coup is smart enough to fight the Twitter War (8+ / 0-)

    by using foot soldiers to sow Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt about the elected President through online channels.

    They may be hard to spot at first, but eventually they expose themselves.

    The Bill of Rights is universal.

    by Paul Goodman on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 05:42:55 AM PDT

  •  More of them have gone to Choate than the SOA. (0+ / 0-)

    This coup was carried out by a graduate of a sinister U.S.-backed terrorist training school

    Having credibility when making an argument is the straightest path to persuasion.

    by SpamNunn on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 05:55:31 AM PDT

  •  The US trains (8+ / 0-)

    a military leader in order to fight the commies and the he goes rogue post-Cold War?

    Why does this story sound so familiar?

  •  I'm pretty proficient in Spanish... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheMomCat, bobdevo, Turkana

    ...but I have no idea what "estado seglar" means.  That you're not a priest?

    Al que no le guste el caldo, le dan dos tazas.

    by Rich in PA on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 06:10:14 AM PDT

  •  in the same way that Blackwater is Xe, SOA is (16+ / 0-)

    WHINSEC: the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation.

    This November will be the first opportunity for the annual protesters to ask President Obama to shut it down.  Hopefully it will be a larger than usual group.

    •  If this is true, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      milkbone, ricardomath, al ajnabee

      than all the more reason for President Obama to refuse to recognize the new government.

      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

      by Setrak on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 06:28:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Ah, but those leftist politicians... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Fishgrease, Turkana, esquimaux, Johnny Q

      ...must have been playing a game of chicken and lost!  That is today's talking point, isn't it?  ;-)

      "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -- Dom Hélder Câmara

      by SLKRR on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 06:56:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I wouldn't say they "lost", (0+ / 0-)

        maybe in the short and immediate term they lost, but I wouldn't assume that the Honduran establishment is on good-enough footing right now to be confident.

        It's not some talking point to say that both sides played chicken in the run-up to yesterday's absurdity.  It's a fact.  That doesn't absolve the establishment of any wrong-doing.

        "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

        by Setrak on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:03:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  "leftist" = anyone who is not a corporate stooge. (12+ / 0-)

        Any political faction in Central or South America that favors the poor and indigenous peoples has gotta be Stalin reincarnated . . . because what right thinking people would oppose the rights of corporations to exploit the people and land at will.

        "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

        by bobdevo on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:25:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  In Mexico, R. Rubin considered Communist (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bobdevo, Turkana, BYw

          A couple of years ago, after the Dems 2006 midterm wins, I was discussing politics with some colleagues (investment bank) in Monterrey.

          They called Robert Rubin a communist, citing his comments regarding high marginal income tax rates for high-earners.  Moreover, they told me that the lower the marginal rates, the more the govt. will collect (straight out of the GOP/Heritage Foundation playbook).

          I wasn't really surprised.  My parents both hail from Nuevo Leon (they came to this country as undocumented immigrants), and many in Monterrey believe that the only poor Mexican is a lazy Mexican.  

          Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

          by PatriciaVa on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:49:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  What a mess. (4+ / 0-)

    It's like everyone is either Dennis Kucinich or Arlen Specter or Dick Cheney.

    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

    by Geekesque on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 06:27:04 AM PDT

  •  Here is a rough translation (4+ / 0-)

    of the Honduran Constitution that was quoted:

    To be President of the Republic or to the Chair Designate, is required:

       1. Be Honduran by birth;

       2. Be more than thirty years;

       3. Being in the enjoyment of the rights of citizens, and

       4. Being a secular state

     

    "By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes" Wm. Shakespeare, "Macbeth"

    by TheMomCat on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 06:28:16 AM PDT

  •  I know my Spanish isn't perfect, but... (6+ / 0-)

    ...doesn't it say that "to be President" (i.e., whether elected or not), that one must "be Honduran by birth?"  Without knowledge of the details of Honduran citizenship laws, couldn't he be Honduran by birth, just by having Honduran parents, irrespective of the location of his birth?

  •  OK, so we trained the dirtbags who engineered (4+ / 0-)

    the coup.  But do we think US involvement in this creepiness is limited to that?  Did the CIA have any inkling what was cooking?

    If not, why not?  Isn't that what we pay them for . . . for INTELLIGENCE??

    And if the CIA knew what was going down and we stood idly by, does that mean that the CIA or some faction thereof thought this was a good idea?

    And if we knew and didn't do anything, does that mean Panetta and/or Obama were onboard?

    Yeah, yeah, I heard the condemnation from the White House . . . but since they claim to be able to chew gum and walk at the same time, a condemnation does NOT mean we weren't in on this up to our eyeballs.

    So who's kidding whom???

    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

    by bobdevo on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 06:38:26 AM PDT

  •  I regularly read a Honduran blogger (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GT, BoxerDave, betson08, Geekesque, BYw, i8pikachu

    who lives in La Ceiba.  Today's post is very interesting, as her political commentary often is, after posting numerous links to Honduran sources regarding what has happened there

    I did not purposely omit any Honduran pro-Zelaya articles in English, I just did not see any. Amazing how many US American pro-Zelaya articles there are though.

    Sure, she is just a blogger in Honduras and not a "primary news source", but I think she brings a perspective to the discussion not many others can.  

    -6.25 -5.3 koyaanisqatsi...

    by dansk47 on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 06:39:27 AM PDT

  •  So what? He defied the Honduran Supreme Court (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GT, subtropolis, BachFan, i8pikachu, MGross

    ...and lost.

    If someone had hustled Andrew Jackson out of the country when he defied our own Supreme Court, I for one would have cheered.

    •  You have to respect democracy (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Turkana, Pager, Johnny Q

      and its messiness. Honduras doesn't have that tradition and now they've just made a 25 year step backwards even further into authoritarianism.

      •  Illegally extending term limits isn't "democracy" (0+ / 0-)

        "In interviews Sunday, Zelaya characterized the vote not as a referendum but as a survey to gauge receptiveness toward a constitutional assembly. He denied that he would have been the beneficiary of any future constitutional changes."

        http://www.cnn.com/...

        So...he was just holding a "survey" that happened to coincide with his final six months in office? No benefit to him, of course.

        What a frickin' liar.

        You people are so naive, it's shocking.

        •  The Vote was for a Constitutional (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Turkana, Johnny Q

          Assembly NOT a referendum on term limits.

          I was just in Honduras at a big NGO and they had the whole explanation.

          YOU are REALLY UNINFORMED.

          So don't call us naive. You are jumping to conclusions with poor evidence and calling people names. Stop.

          •  "A Constitutional Assembly That Could Modify..." (0+ / 0-)

            the nation's charter to allow the President to run for another term."

            http://www.cnn.com/...

            And as to the timing of all this right before his term is up...silence, eh?

            Please hand out Bloomberg for Mayor bumper stickers while you're protesting, at least then you'd show a consistent position on the subject.

            •  Could a constitutional assembly really... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SLKRR, Turkana

              ...modify the constitution to get rid of term limits?

              My impression (from very little information really) is that there are parts of the constitution that can be changed and parts that cannot be changed, and that the term limits are in the later part.

              So, if there were a constitutional assembly, which parts of the constitution are really eligible to be changed.

              Or are constitutional assemblies themselves illegal under the constitution? Is the entire document unalterable in perpetuity? Or are there other mechanisms for altering and amending it?

              illegal, n. A term used by descendents of European immigrants to refer to descendants of Indigenous Americans

              by ricardomath on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 12:23:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  It's a mess in a country with weak instituions (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    thestructureguy

    But Zelaya could have avoided this if he had started by respecting the rule of law and the separation of powers.

    •  The separation of powers in Honduras (14+ / 0-)

      is non-existent. That is one reason a constitutional convention is needed. The idea that this is about Zelaya's lack of respect for legal niceties is ridiculous. This is a power struggle between a corrupt elite and a president backed by the poor majority of a very poor country trying to change a constitution that rigs the system in favor of that elite.

      •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

        You are an expert on Honduras's politics and Constitution?

        Do you even understand Spanish? Or do you always offer strong opinions about countries a week ago you probably couldn't place in a map?

        •  I live in Chiapas, Mexico. (12+ / 0-)

          I read Spanish at a graduate level and am doing dissertation research that requires a general knowledge of late 20th century Central American politics. I've read the relevant sections of the Honduran Constitution and a little history of how it came to be. I was active in Central America solidarity activism in the 1980s and read extensively at the time. I do not claim expertise on Honduras beyond that, but I do know the basic history and have journalist friends who just returned from there just a few days ago.

          What about you?

          •  In other words (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Geekesque

            You have no expertise on Honduras Constitution. As i thought.

            I don't 'read at a graduate level'. I am a native speaker. I've lived in Latin America and travel all over, including Honduras. I generally don't opine about technical topics I know little about.

            •  Do you seriously (8+ / 0-)

              dispute my characterization of the separation of powers in Honduras or of the social basis of this conflict? If so, make your case. Otherwise enough with the pissing contest. I'm a reasonably well informed follower of events in the region. If you can point me to information that contradicts my present understanding I welcome it.

              •  I'm sure GT (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                MKS, Turkana, protectspice, Anak, Johnny Q

                Has some upper-class friends in Honduras who think the coup leaders are swell guys and see the deposed president as representing the unwashed masses...

                But that wouldn't be terribly convincing to many people here...

                "If you can't lower heaven, raise hell!" - Mother Jones

                by al ajnabee on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:20:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ahh, the childish (0+ / 0-)

                  "you must have rich friends" routine.

                  •  But you're not denying (5+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    bobdevo, Turkana, protectspice, Anak, Johnny Q

                    That your Honduran friends are rich?

                    I claim no special knowledge of Honduras per se, but I'm frequently appalled to hear the views of the upper classes in Latin America.  They make American Republicans seem downright compassionate.

                    I think the conversation turned childish when you started hating on Christopher Day.  I was just following your lead...

                    "If you can't lower heaven, raise hell!" - Mother Jones

                    by al ajnabee on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:28:59 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Haha (0+ / 0-)

                      But you don't deny that you beat your wife?

                    •  Chris Day: You are so right (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Turkana

                      The upper class in Central America can also be quite racist--they are European, and the others with indigenous backgrounds are nothing.

                      Upper Class right wingers saying they are from Central/Latin America are insidious.  They gain credibility by "being from" the country--while supporting a class structure that kills.

                       

                      •  The comment about GT's rich friends (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Turkana

                        was not mine. I'd be interested in knowing more about his class background but I don't think it is dispositive. Many progressive leaders have come from ruling class backgrounds and there is no shortage of right-wing jerks of humble origins.

                        •  True, but power (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Turkana

                          is held by the ultra rich in Central America in an extreme way that is not typically found in the U.S.

                          There are the rich who help the poor in Central America--but they are the exception rather than the rule.

                          •  The rich in the US (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Turkana

                            are no better. The difference is that their haciendas are other peoples countries. Things only look less severe in the US if you make the mistake of treating US territory as the proper unit of analysis. The Central American oligarchs are basically overseers in a system run from the US and other rich countries. Viewed in this way the class inequalities are even more stark.

                          •  Interesting (0+ / 0-)

                            With respect to Guatemala, the rich landed aristocracy were clearly of European heritage--6'4" tall with blue eyes, red beards, etc.  A lot of them are Brits.....The Nazis--real Nazis--controlled the coffee growing district in Guatemala in the 1930s and 1940s.  Swastikas hung from municipal buildings....

                            The U.S.'s economic interest in Guatemala was supreme when United Fruit Co. held sway in the 1950s--but since, I really don't have much to back that up.  The big copper mine in Guatemala, Exmibal, was/is Canadian.  

                          •  Imperialism (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            MKS

                            is a complex system. The US mainatins its global hegemony in part by being the protector of ALL foreign capital, not just that of US companies. This gives US capital certain advantages, but the security costs are higher and its not always possible to pass them on to the junior partners.

                            The Germans who ran the coffee plantations in Chiapas, Mexico also had Nazi sympathies. Paco Ignacio Taibo III has a novel about it, though I forget the name.

                          •  Fr. Bartolome de las Casas (0+ / 0-)

                            spent a lot of time in The Verapaz in Guatemala before he went to Chiapas...A poignant history.

                          •  Starbucks buys a lot of coffee (0+ / 0-)

                            and Coca-Cola has bottling plants there....

              •  What I dispute (0+ / 0-)

                is that you are in any way qualified to say that "a constitutional convention is needed" in Honduras. You have no expertise on that topic.

                You are also factually incorrect that there is no separation of powers in Honduras. If anything, the events of recent days clearly showed there are.

                Institutions are very weak in Honduras, one of the poorest countries in the region. Kicking Zelaya out is a big step backwards in that regard. But Zelaya created this mess when he decided to break the law and ignore the other powers.  

                •  You have NO respect for democracy (5+ / 0-)

                  You impeach Zelaya, you jail him, etc. You do NOT send him off on a plane to Costa Rica a gunpoint.

                  You do NOT declare a curfew, you do NOT arrest political allies, you do NOT shut down the media and make the people of the capital feel they are under seige (see my comments below with emails I received from Honduras this morning).

                  All the govts of the hemisphere have denounced this, including regional ones, like the OAS. Who the HELL are you to justify a coup? THAT'S what smells like oligarcy to the rest of us when you write that shit.

                  So you were born in Latin America huh? Do you respect authoritarian govts more than democratic ones, because that's the political culture.

                  I see NO cogent analysis from you and just claim of a regional pedigree.

                  Stop attacking other people for analyzing the situation when you have no substantive background of your own to site.

                  YUCK!

                  In the meantime, Honduran civil society is organizing itself as we write. Lets see how you analyze that one.

                  •  Oh yeah, the OAS (0+ / 0-)

                    You mean the same organization that wants Cuba's dictatorship as a member?

                    The same one that missed Nicaragua's stolen election?

                    remind me why I should care about anything they have to say about democracy?

                    •  Showing your colors (4+ / 0-)

                      You sound like a rich right winger.....

                      Daniel Ortega gave up power when he lost an election....I wish people would recognize that regardless of how they otherwise feel about him.

                      •  hahaha (0+ / 0-)

                        you really need to catch up with you favorite Latin strongmen!

                        •  You mean the one who now controls Honduras? (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          An Affirming Flame, Johnny Q

                          The upper class in Central America has much blood on its hands.

                          •  everyone has blood on their hands (0+ / 0-)

                            in Central America. That's why they call it civil war.

                            BTW, what's this "i hate the rich" routine?

                          •  "Everyone" (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Johnny Q

                            Ah, yes, the ol' equivalency argument.

                            Right wingers in Central America often justified outright genocide on the basis that the other side was killing people too.  No matter it wasn't true (or was largely untrue)...Right wing dictatorships--often with U.S. backing--have been responsible for far greater death than any opposition.

                            As to wealth in Central America--the disparaties are obscene.      

                          •  Ah, yes (0+ / 0-)

                            The old " som deaths are worse than others' argument.

                            Let me guess, you support the FARC killers and Cuba's dictatorship?

                          •  No, I lived in Guatemala during the Civil War (4+ / 0-)

                            The UN Truth Commission, which built on the Catholic Church's own exhaustive findings, reported that 93% of the deaths were caused by the Guatemalan government, 3% by the guerillas and the balance was of unknown responsbility.

                            I have heard all the tired arguments you make here--every one--used to justify genocide.  Of course, those arguments were made typically before the UN and Catholic Church issued their reports, when the oligarchy lied and created enough confusion to make it hard to immediately refute what they were saying until much later.  But I smell the same stench once more.

                            As to Cuba and the FARC, I do not support them.  BUT, I strongly oppose any U.S. attempt to interfere.

                          •  The Rich (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            MKS, Johnny Q

                            The question, at least as I see it, isn't one of love or hate for the rich, but of where their wealth comes from and what the consequences are of their de facto monopoly on political power. In Central America it is quite clear that their wealth derives from the extreme poverty of those whose labors produce it for them and the consequences of their rule have been the perpetuation of this arrangement, often by quite grisly means.

                  •  I just did a quick review of the Constitution (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Turkana, marsanges

                    and couldn't find any provisions for impeachment, per se.  The Supreme Court does have the power to rule on the unconstitutionality of the laws (Art. 319), but I didn't see a provision that allows it to rule on the constitutionality of the president's actions.

                    Article 272 gives the Armed Forces the obligation to maintain "the rule of the Constitution, the principles of free suffrage, and the alternation in the exercise of the Presidency of the Republic."  I could see a lawyer developing a constitutional argument based on that clause justifying yesterday's coup d'etat.

                    Which says to me that Zelaya was right: that Constitution needs to be replaced.

                    Richard "The Dick" Cheney: screwing America since 1969

                    by litho on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 11:22:08 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Not as of now... (0+ / 0-)

                      ... but Congress did have the power originally to impeach the president (Article 205 Paragraph 15) that was repealed in 2003. It would be interesting to see exactly who decided to repeal that.

                      (Compare the original and amended constitutions here)

                •  Qualifications (8+ / 0-)

                  Its not a question of expertise, but of politics. Of course the only people truly qualified to say whether a constitutional convention is needed are the people of Honduras. The coup was carried out to prevent them from doing so.

                  My comment about the separation of powers referred to the way politics have been conducted there historically. Zeleya's "crime" was precisely acting independently of the oligarchy that has historically controlled all branches of government and aligning with popular forces that have been historically excluded from power. So offering the monolithic actions of the Congress, Supreme Court and armed forces against the president as evidence of a "separation of powers" is a bit strange.

                  Zeleya's actions were aimed at breaking the grip of the oligarchy which is the real "mess" that the impoverished majority of Hondurans have had to live with. A showdown was probably inevitable before a genuine democracy could be established. We'll see how it turns out.

                  •  Again, what proof do you offer for any of this? (0+ / 0-)

                    How do you know that Zelaya, who is a rich oligarch himself, is trying to break their grip?

                    Zelaya broke the law. He started this mess.

                    In any case there will be a new election in a few months.

                    •  How do you know (3+ / 0-)

                      there will be a new election in a few months?

                      You sound like an apologist for the rich oligarchy.

                      "Broke the law?"  What a selective view of the law....Kidnapping the president at gunpoint and exiling him??  That is not breaking the law?

                    •  Class treason (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      litho, MKS, An Affirming Flame, Johnny Q

                      I judge people by their actions not their family backgrounds. (I judge social and political systems by the classes and sectors that dominate them.)  Zelaya would not be President if not for his oligarchic background but he has pursued a course of action that has clearly awakened the popular sectors and that is perceived as profoundly threatening by the rest of the oligarchy.

                      The organization of a non-binding consulta is only a violation of the law because the Supreme Court that is beholden to the oligarchy has decreed it so.

                      Like all defenders of the established order your view of "this mess" is limited to the constitutional crisis and does not include the much deeper mess that is the life of the poor majority under the oligarachy's monopoly on political power.

                      •  Are you a grad student? (0+ / 0-)

                        Ever hear of circular arguments?

                      •  Didn't Roosevelt also betray his Class? (0+ / 0-)

                        http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...

                        Roosevelt’s own social class was horrified by the actions of the president. The president had been born in to a privileged family who lived a rich lifestyle on the east-coast of America – Roosevelt had been born at Hyde Park in New York State and spent his summer holidays at Campobello Island where the family had a summer holiday home.  

                        To finance his first New Deal, Roosevelt had introduced higher taxes for the rich. They felt that he had betrayed his class and he was expelled from his social club for letting down "his people".

                        Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

                        by PatriciaVa on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 11:30:52 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Roosevelt SAVED his class (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Johnny Q

                          from the abyss. He just had a clearer view of their long term interests in keeping the system afloat and forestalling revolution with reforms. Maybe that is what Zelaya is really doing as well. In any event it is clear that in times of crisis fissures appear in ruling circles that offer openings to other classes and groups.

            •  Huh? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              newpioneer, marsanges

              He just owned you, dude.  He's a graduate student in Latin American politics, lives in Mexico, and is familiar with Central American history.  You accused him of not knowing Spanish and not being able to find Honduras on a map.

              You were clearly and obviously wrong about his qualifications, yet do you acknowledge his expertise?

              No.  You offer the weak comeback that as a "native speaker" you know more about the Honduran constitution than he does.

              Makes you look like an idiot, really.

              Richard "The Dick" Cheney: screwing America since 1969

              by litho on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 11:15:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  It is amazing to me... (7+ / 0-)

    ...how many people are repeating the talking point "he defied the Supreme Court and lost" - and yet I bet a fair share of them bitched and moaned about Bush v. Gore being a coup.  

    Funny, that.

    "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -- Dom Hélder Câmara

    by SLKRR on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:00:03 AM PDT

  •  The US should impose sanctions (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    esquimaux, Johnny Q, al ajnabee

    to the fascist regime who took over Honduras.  Let's see whether the Obama administration will really stand up strongly for what is right.   The fascist regime should be isolated and pressured, so it collapses.

    •  Fascist? You know this how? n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      subtropolis
    •  No they shouldn't (0+ / 0-)

      Honduras is all ready a supremely struggling economic country. Imposing sanctions will just make more innocent people starve to death.

      Also up until recently the government had a monopoly on the electricity and land line phone sin the country. Only recently have they allowed private telecom businesses in to conduct business and bid on contracts to privatize the telecommunications sector in the country. If the U.S. imposes sanctions all of the U.S. and Western telecom businesses will pull out of the country as well. The result will be the government controlling the electricity and telephones all over again, which will only further isolate the poverty stricken people of the nation.

      Lastly, imposing sanctions will do nothing to topple the regime as you put it. It would actually only further tighten their grip on the country and run the risk that the WHOLE country falls into formal and official authoritarian nationalism, which no one wants to see.

      The State Department needs to work with the allies in the region in conjunction with the EU and the UN to resolve this situation, NOT impose more meaningless sanctions that will actually have the opposite of the desired effect.

      "If these pro-lifers are so pro-life, then maybe they should lock arms and block cemeteries" -- Bill Hicks

      by Moon Mop on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 11:11:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Wow, there's something you don't see any more! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    betson08, Johnny Q

    A real Latin American military coup!  I can't even remember the last one--recent extraconstitutional changes in Ecuador and Bolivia don't count.  Zelaya reminds me of Abdalá Bucaram, who was an elected president of Ecuador in the 1990s who was removed by the Congress and the military for general weirdness issues; that was pre-Chávez, at least in the sense of a regional bloc, and I'm sure Bucaram would have posed as a leftist like Zelaya if he had the chance.  Not that it's done Zelaya any good in the end.

    Al que no le guste el caldo, le dan dos tazas.

    by Rich in PA on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:04:36 AM PDT

    •  Usually military coups end up with a Gen. as Pres (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GT, milkbone, i8pikachu

      Not this one.

      As ugly as all this is, it appears the intent of the "coup participants" (which seem to be all of the arms of Honduran government except the President) was to remove one guy who fashioned him self Honduras' Chavez.

      As with Iran, leave it to the locals to figure out. We can certainly argue among ourselves if it is good or bad, but ultimately, the Honduran's will figure this out. We've got enough problems of our own.

      4316

      •  wrong-not about "one guy." (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SLKRR, Indiana Bob, Tanya

        As noted above, the leftist opposition leader has been murdered. Right, we do have enough problems of our own. I wish our hands were clean in Central America.

        Green with envy looking at Iran's response to electoral fraud.

        by catilinus on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:23:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Zelaya has the law on his side, FWIW. (8+ / 0-)

        Not that I'm an expert, but he's entitled to call a consultative referendum; and as he noted last week, it wouldn't extend his time in office.  Rather, it would express public opinion on whether he should be allowed to run again after an intervening term.  That's extremely innocuous stuff.

        So very innocuous, in fact, that it strains credibility that he would mobilize thousands of volunteers to canvas for it, as he's done.  The argument of his opponents is that he's just not telling the truth--he would hold the vote, then turn around and claim it as a de-facto mandate to extend his current term.  And they're probably right--if you wanted a public opinion poll, you can get one with a lot less trouble.

        So it's an interesting conflict philosophically: Zelaya has the law on his side, but if you believe he's likely to stage an autogolpe a la Fujimori, it's best to swallow hard and get rid of him now.  

        Al que no le guste el caldo, le dan dos tazas.

        by Rich in PA on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:28:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for the details ........... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Christopher Day, Johnny Q

          because, as we all know, therein resides the Devil.

          I'm with you, the idea that the people cannot under any circumstances change their organizational document reeks to me of hegemony by the ruling class - who figure they can always endure ONE terms from a populist democratic candidate before installing one of their own thugs.

          "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

          by bobdevo on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:42:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  But it makes no sense (7+ / 0-)

          The argument of the opposition being:

          The argument of his opponents is that he's just not telling the truth--he would hold the vote, then turn around and claim it as a de-facto mandate to extend his current term.

          And then if/when he declared such a mandate, there would be a concrete reason to remove him.  Doing it now just makes it an obvious coup.  You don't remove a democratically-elected leader because you think he might sometime in the future consider doing something that might be illegal.  

          "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -- Dom Hélder Câmara

          by SLKRR on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:42:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yes and no. (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SLKRR, BYw, protectspice, Johnny Q, al ajnabee

          The purpose of the consulta is not to allow Zelaya to run for re-election, but to advise Congress to put an official  measure on the November ballot that would call a constitutional convention next year. The possibility that Zelaya might be allowed to run again not in the upcoming election but later is indeed innocuous, but a constitutional convention poses a real threat to the Honduran oligarchy and that is what this is really about.

          The thousands who have been canvassing for this are not simply supporters of Zelaya, but rather include a broad alliance of progressive Honduran social movements.See: http://americasmexico.blogspot.com/...

          The idea that this is a prelude to an auto-golpe is nothing more than a pretext for the Honduran elite to prevent a constitutional convention that threatens their historic monopoly on political power. The expectation was that the supporters of the constitutional convention would be voting for Cesar Ham for president in the upcoming election.

      •  I was just in Honduras in May (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        litho

        No such thing was happening, sorry.

        There was a lot of talk about the CUARTA URNA and frankly, people were making fun of it.

        Zelaya was until then kind of unremarkable, even if he had allied himself with the LA Leftist governments.

        Lets not get carried away with what Zelaya was before the coup.

  •  About how old is Micheletti? eom (0+ / 0-)

    The well-known phenomena of pshychological projection and confirmation bias account for 198% of conservative so-called 'ideas'

    by power2truth on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:20:12 AM PDT

  •  When is a coup not a coup? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    i8pikachu

    How about when it is constitutional?

    TRANSLATION - Article 239.- The citizen that has been the head of the Executive Branch cannot be President or Vice-President again.
    Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.

    •  When is a coup a coup? (8+ / 0-)

      When it overthrows a democratically elected president (regardless of an "interpretation" of the constition) and then murders leaders of opposition parties in upcoming scheduled elections.

      Green with envy looking at Iran's response to electoral fraud.

      by catilinus on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:36:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't know about that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        i8pikachu

        I don't know about murdering opposition party members but I did find this on CNN:

        But in Honduras, the Supreme Court said in an official statement that the military was acting in accordance with a court order to put an end to Sunday's scheduled vote, which the court's justices had found illegal.

        Micheletti addressed the issue in his first remarks as provisional president.

        "I did not reach this position because of a coup," he said. "I am here because of an absolutely legal transition process."

        Sounds like the military was acting under the orders of the Judicial branch of the Honduran government. Please post some information on these 'murders' you speak of.

        •  So if we were talking about Iran (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SLKRR, MKS, protectspice, Johnny Q

          would you use a quote from the Guardian Council and Ahmedinijad to "prove" that no coup had happened?

          Coup leaders ALWAYS say they're acting to protect the constitution...

          "If you can't lower heaven, raise hell!" - Mother Jones

          by al ajnabee on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 08:40:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Happily, the murder of opposition leader Ham (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BYw

          posted earlier in this thread is now refuted.

          "Sounds like the military was acting under the orders of the Judicial branch of the Honduran government"... or the Judicial branch was acting under the orders of the military...or the separation between the Judicial and the military was compromised.

          Green with envy looking at Iran's response to electoral fraud.

          by catilinus on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 08:46:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  So what? Doesn't justify a military takeover (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lotlizard, Johnny Q

          Honduras has had a problems with authoritarian governments even after 1982, when the last military government left. This is just a symptom of a lack of democracy. Impeach Zelaya, don't send him out of the country and invent a phony resignation letter. That's bs and undemocratic.

        •  No, that is not correct (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lotlizard, Johnny Q

          Zelaya's referendum was NON-BINDING.  It was basically kabuki theater.  He did want a change, but these elections were just to show support for the measure (if any existed).

          That would be like one of our polls on a DKOS diary being used as a reason for the military to take the site down.

          I better not give them any ideas....

          The common sense of mankind demands that law shall not stop with the punishment of petty crimes - Robert Jackson's addresses to the Nuremberg Trials

          by Indiana Bob on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 09:53:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  And you find Artible 239 to be other than (8+ / 0-)

      a mechanism for the oligarchy to limit the ability of the people to manifest their will?

      The constitution you quote was a gift to them from Ronald Reagan in 1982.

      "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

      by bobdevo on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:44:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The vote was illegal (0+ / 0-)

        The president never had the power.  Once you let the cat out of the bag, you've got severe problems because not only is the Constitution in violation, but now the president has new powers not provided by the constitution yet supported only by illegal ballots.  Time was not on the government's side to deal with this.

        •  Are you a professional apologist for right wing (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Wilberforce, lotlizard, Anak, Johnny Q

          coup d'etats?  Cause you're doing a find job spouting the party line to prop up a constitution foisted upon the nation by Ronald Reagan's right wing Dept of State.

          "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

          by bobdevo on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 09:46:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So? (0+ / 0-)

            What's wrong with the Constitution?  It was written coming out of a military dictatorship and designed to keep it from becoming another dictatorship.  It looks like it's working to me as long as the ex-president doesn't regain his position and continue to illegally spread the ballots.

          •  If the Hondruan Constitution means nothing... (0+ / 0-)

            ...then no one should have any complaints that there was a coup.

            The President's only power arises from the Constitution you are deriding.  

            Basically you're revealing that the real problem you have here is that a leftist politician was deposed.  If the situation was reversed, and Zelaya had held his illegal plebiscite and then used violence to impose himself as an extra-Constitutional candidate for re-election, you would have been perfectly delighted, because that sort of Chavista tactic would "reflect the popular will".

    •  Banana Republic (11+ / 0-)

      That reads like the an article from the constitution of the quintessential banana republic (which is what Honduras is), a constitution that cries out for a new constitutional convention which is what the real content of the consulta was. The 1982 constitution was written about a week after the formal end of military rule in Honduras. Real power remained in teh hands of the military but the formal mechanisms of a democracy had to be concocted if Honduras was to serve as the US's main base of operations against revolutionary movements in neighboring Nicaragua, El Salvador and Guatemala. Article 239 is one of the mechanisms intended to prevent the creation of a popular civilian government that could defy the oligarchy and the military.

    •  You don't ship off the President to Costa Rica (5+ / 0-)

      besides the fact that I trust the international community to decide what is a coup.

      You can impeach Zelaya, you don't ship him off and then install your own guy.

      This CUARTA URNA never even got to the Constitutent Assembly phase. Hard to accuse anybody of proposing to extend his term before he has even gotten arouind to it himself.  

      We don't even know when this Constitutional revision would take place - if after November,Zelaya would already be out of office.

      And the reason that this clause exists in the first place is because of the history of military dictatorships and dictators in office for MORE THAN ONE TERM. Now, the military has taken over and can do what it wants yet again.

      THIS IS A COUP!

    •  When people don't respect democracy (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Johnny Q

      It's a Coup.

      It doesn't matter whether the President broke the law, the military doesn't have the right to take over the govt. You arrest him, impeach him, etc. You don't spirit him off at gunpoint, shut down the media and electricity in your capital, and have the congress install you own guy.

      Even the OAS thinks it's a coup. I'll go with them, thank you very much,.

      CURRENT SITUATION IN HONDURAS

      (Adopted at the meeting of June 28, 2009)

      THE PERMANENT COUNCIL OF THE ORGANIZATION OF AMERICAN STATES,

      CONSIDERING the grave situation taking place in the Republic of Honduras as a result of the coup d’etat against the government of President José Manuel Zelaya Rosales, which has produced an unconstitutional alteration of the democratic order, which the Permanent Council rejects and repudiates;

      CONCERNED with the break-down of the constitutional order in the Republic of Honduras;

      REAFIRMING the importance of strict adherence and respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, and the principle of non-intervention in the internal affairs of other States;

      REITERATING the principles established in the Charter of the Organization of American States and the Inter-American Democratic Charter on the strengthening and preservation of the democratic institutional system in  member states, and

      RECALLING CP/RES. 952 (1699/09) of June 26, 2009, relative to the situation in Honduras,

      RESOLVES:

      1. To condemn vehemently the coup d’état staged this morning against the constitutionally-established Government of Honduras, and the arbitrary detention and expulsion from the country of the constitutional president José Manuel Zelaya Rosales, which has produced an unconstitutional alteration of the democratic order.
      1. To demand the immediate, safe and unconditional return of President José Manuel Zelaya Rosales to his constitutional functions.
      1. To declare that no government arising from this unconstitutional interruption will be recognized.
      1. To instruct the Secretary General of the OAS to urgently attend the meeting of the Central American Integration System (SICA), that will take place in Managua, Nicaragua, and in accordance with Article 20 of the Inter-American Democratic Charter, to carry out all necessary consultations with the member states of the Organization.
      1. To vehemently condemn all acts of violence and especially the reported arbitrary detention  of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Patricia Rodas, other Ministers of Government, as well as the Mayor of San Pedro Sula, and associated individuals, and to demand that their physical safety and security be respected and that they be released immediately.
      1. To immediately convene a special session of the OAS General Assembly to take place at the headquarters of the Organization, on Tuesday, June 30, 2009, to take whatever decisions it considers appropriate, in accordance with the Charter of the Organization of American States, international law, and the provisions of the Inter-American Democratic Charter.
      1. To instruct the Secretary General to transmit the resolution to the Secretary General of the United Nations.
  •  Who in world leadership is to be (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bobdevo, Nightprowlkitty, Johnny Q

    trusted?

    "In a world filled with hate, anger, despair and distrust, we must still dare to hope, comfort, dream and believe." MJ

    by publicv on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:21:38 AM PDT

  •  Was Watergate a "coup"? (0+ / 0-)

    The Congress and Supreme Court of Honduras ruled that the President was acting unlawfully. The Court ordered the military to remove him. I can't recall a "legal coup" such as this occurring before. Moreover, if Nixon had refused to turn over the tapes and the SCOTUS had ordered the FBI to seize them by any means necessary, would that have been illegal? And do people here really support the right of leaders such as Chavez and Zelaya to extend their terms of office indefinitely?

  •  Oh no! Not another brither movement! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marsanges

    http://en.wikipedia.org/...
    13 August 1943 (1943-08-13) (age 65)
    El Progreso, Yoro, Honduras

  •  Let's say Vasquez is 50-55 years old now and a (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tanya

    career military officer. He would have been then 25-30 during the Contra and death squad years...he was trained at the school of the americas, but if he was not immediately put into high service...what was he doing then? I doubt that he was proving his democratic credentials. More than likely he was putting the teaching he received to 'good' use.

    The well-known phenomena of pshychological projection and confirmation bias account for 198% of conservative so-called 'ideas'

    by power2truth on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:23:50 AM PDT

    •  I don't understand this line of reasoning. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PoliMorf, bellerophon, milkbone

      Like much progressive thought on the Third World, it gives people very little credit for coming up with stuff on their own.  Latin American militaries carried out military coups long before the School of the Americas, you know!

      Al que no le guste el caldo, le dan dos tazas.

      by Rich in PA on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 08:20:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Here's 1+ thing the people of Honduras definitely (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SLKRR, Indiana Bob, BYw, Anak

        did not come up with: that constitution, which is being used right now to deny their ability to express their opinion even in a nonbinding way.

        The well-known phenomena of pshychological projection and confirmation bias account for 198% of conservative so-called 'ideas'

        by power2truth on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 08:29:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Yet another reason... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bobdevo, lotlizard, Tanya

    ...the us government, including the Obama administration, want to keep the attendee's names to what use to be called the school of the America’s secret.

    We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

    by delver rootnose on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:31:20 AM PDT

  •  What's the price of bananas these days? (0+ / 0-)

    Have to admit, this is about Honduras after all -- not like it should be surprising or anything.

    Costa Rica, on the other hand...

    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -- Mark Twain.

    by dcrolg on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:32:13 AM PDT

  •  Let's hope this isn't (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SLKRR, lotlizard, Indiana Bob, Tanya, BYw, Johnny Q
    the beginning of a new era of military coups against democratically elected governments in South America.

    "We had a decisive win... and so I don't think there is any question we have a mandate to move the country in a new direction." Barack Obama

    by pollbuster on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:36:01 AM PDT

    •  Yes, let's hope (10+ / 0-)

      The number of people on this site enthusiastically supporting it is very disconcerting...

      "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -- Dom Hélder Câmara

      by SLKRR on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:38:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Really? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pollbuster, al ajnabee

        I've been away for a couple days. Are there really a large number of people on this site "enthusiastically supporting" the coup? If so, color me disgusted.

        Eli Stephens
        Left I on the News

        by elishastephens on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:46:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's not a lot (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SLKRR, pollbuster, Indiana Bob, Anak, Johnny Q

          But it's still disgusting.  Something like this is bound to bring the Chavez-obsessives out of the woodwork.  Most of those trying to justify the coup have probably never thought about Honduras in their lives, but hearing that Chavez supports the deposed leader (even if Obama, Clinton, The EU and the OAS also support him) makes them duty bound to oppose him...

          "If you can't lower heaven, raise hell!" - Mother Jones

          by al ajnabee on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 08:08:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  No, I think a lot of people are indifferent. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          milkbone

          Zelaya is nearing the end of his term, so unless you think a continuista project is being truncated (in which you'd have to conclude that the opposition is right in claiming that Zelaya is planning an "autogolpe" using the planned consultative vote), it's not exactly the overthrow of Allende.  I'd rather he wasn't deposed, but he's not going to get his faced carved into an anti-Imperialist Mount Rushmore alongside Allende, Arbenz, and whoever else belongs there.

          Al que no le guste el caldo, le dan dos tazas.

          by Rich in PA on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 08:18:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Well... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          pollbuster, protectspice, Anak, Johnny Q

          ...to be fair, only one that I saw said he was "enthusiastic" about it, but it seems there are a decent number who are distributing the talking points of those who carried out the coup... but I grant that their support may not have a lot of enthusiasm.  ;-)

          "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -- Dom Hélder Câmara

          by SLKRR on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 08:57:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Democratic majorities in Congress, Dem in the WH: (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Johnny Q, al ajnabee

        To many that means "Happy days are here again" (that is, "By virtue of our G~d-given exceptionalism, America can once again do no wrong").

        The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war.

        by lotlizard on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 02:05:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This is exactly why I'm embarrassed... (4+ / 0-)

    ...by the fuss being made over Iran and this site's googly-eyed-nonstop-gushing support of it. Knowing the history of our great, Imperial nation, doesn't it even cross the mind of anyone here that maybe, just maybe the U.S. government and CIA has it's filthy paws all over that situation?

  •  Fascinating details from Fidel Castro (9+ / 0-)

    Fidel Castro's latest column, more of a news article than an "op-ed," contains many fascinating details I haven't read elsewhere, such as the experience of the foreign minister, another target of the coup. She was meeting with the ambassadors of Venezuela, Nicaragua and Cuba after the kidnapping of the President, trying to get diplomatic protection. I'll let Fidel take it from there:

    When the diplomats were already in her house, the putschist command sent Major Oceguera to put her under arrest. The diplomats stood between the woman and the officer and claimed she was under diplomatic protection and could only be moved accompanied by them. Oceguera discussed with them in a respectful fashion. A few minutes later, 12 or 15 men in uniform and covering their faces with ski masks rushed into the house. The three ambassadors embraced Patricia but the masked men using force managed to separate the Venezuelan and Nicaraguan ambassadors; Hernandez held her so strongly by one arm that the masked men dragged them both to a van and drove to an air base where they finally separated him and took her away.

    The U.S. has denounced the coup. They've also denounced "continuing Israeli settlements" in Palestine. It remains to be seen if they put as much "force" (e.g., cutting off military aid) behind the former as they do they latter.

    Eli Stephens
    Left I on the News

    by elishastephens on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:45:30 AM PDT

  •  How the US funds $ to opposition (my first post) (8+ / 0-)

    You must, must, must know this to understand the situation.

    From Venezuelanalysis.com

    Opposition forces in Honduras, led by a US-funded NGO Grupo Paz y Democracia, have stated via CNN that a coup has not ocurred, but rather a "transition" to democracy. Martha Diaz, coordinator of the NGO, which receives USAID funding, has just declared minutes ago on CNN that "civil society" does not support President Zelaya nor his "illegal quest" to hold a non-binding referendum on a potential future constitutional reform. She justified his kidnapping, beating and removal from power as a "democratic transition". Again, this is eerily reminiscent of the coup d'etat in Venezuela in April 2002, when so-called "civil society" along with dissident military forces kidnapped President Chávez and installed a "transition government". The groups involved also received funding from the U.S. government, primarily via the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and later from USAID as well.

    Do your research:

    What the National Endowment for Democracy says it does.
    What the NED really does.

    •  Aren't you glad they used our $$$$$$.......? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Johnny Q

      Int he meantime, the White House can condemn this lawless act.

      "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

      by bobdevo on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 08:00:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Obama's first coup (4+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        bobdevo, lotlizard, Anak, Johnny Q
        Hidden by:
        Geekesque

        I am very cynical.

        When I brought students to Nicaragua in 2005 we met with one of these US-National Endowment for Democracy funded groups. This group, Hagamos Democracia (Let's make Democracy, said they were all about promoting citizen participation in the electoral process. I asked if they were going to support a candidate in the Presidential election and the speaker said "Yes, we will support the candidate that is most supportive of democracy, and that is Monteverde." (This is the right leaning candidate.) And sure enough, they did that with $$ and organizing, and continue to organize the right leaning candidates.  Now with Ortega in power, they organize opposition protests.

        I have mixed feeling as about funding "Pro democracy" groups. Thumbs up in countries such as Sudan.  

        Thumbs down when legitimate elections take place, elections with observers etc, such as Honduras, Nicaragua etc.

  •  I'll throw this in (6+ / 0-)

    Just got an e-mail from Buenos Aires from the Comunidad Internacional de Mujeres Viviendo con VIH/SIDA (International Community of Women Living with HIV/AIDS, ICW) calling for an international condemnation of the Honduras coup. It calls on

    . . . leaders of civil society and cultural, business, sports, union and political leaders to show their support for the brave attitude of Xiomara Castro de Zelaya, First Lady of Honduras, who has remained in her country together with her children to face the barbarity during these sad hours for American democracy.

    Doña Xiomara is also the president of the Coalition of First Ladies and Women Leaders on Women and AIDS, and we support her now as before, in her ongoing social work. For her, we request your vital support to reestablish democratic life in Honduras for our Central American brothers and sisters. [translated from Spanish]

    This is interesting on lots of levels, including the solidarity being shown by First Ladies in the hemisphere. I've never seen anything quite like it.

    "I had seen the universe as it begins for all things. It was, in reality, a child's universe, a tiny and laughing universe." Loren Eiseley

    by cadejo4 on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:52:39 AM PDT

    •  Also, press release from Hondurans Against AIDS (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lotlizard, cadejo4, Anak

      in the Bronx.

      The diaspora speaks.

      HONDUREÑOS CONTRA EL SIDA

      New York, NY - The Honduran community in the U.S. America woke yesterday morning to worrying news about the arrest and deportation to Costa Rica of  José Manuel Zelaya, President of Honduras.
      Above all, we express our unequivocal solidarity with the people of Honduras and make a strong call to respect the constitutional order.

      Regardless of the disputes about the democratic legitimacy of the administration of President Manuel Zelaya Rosales, we find the role of the the Armed Forces of Honduras as an arbiter of such definitional disputes unacceptable. Our history has taught us that we must not use military force as the only way to solve the challenges of democratic governance.

      Finally, we believe in the democratic process that has been brewing in Honduras during the last decades. Even though imperfect, it offers to Hondurans living in Honduras, as well as those who live outside, the best way to help the great enterprise of making Honduras more just and more inclusive for all the people of Honduras. We demand a return to constitutional order as soon as possible, and the immediate return of the constitutional President José Manuel Zelaya the country.

      1184 Fulton Avenue, Bronx NY 10456, (718) 991-2233, 213-5439

      COMUNICADO DE PRENSA
      29 de junio, 2009
      Contacto de prensa: Mirtha Colon, Hondureños Contra el SIDA, (718) 213-5439
      Pablo Gómez, Desfile Hondureño Centro Americano (347) 260-5904
      DEPLORABLE SITUACION POLITICA HONDUREÑA

      Nueva York, NY – La comunidad Hondureña de los EE.UU. de América nos despertamos la mañana de ayer con la preocupante noticia sobre el arresto y la deportación hacia Costa Rica del Presidente José Manuel Zelaya, presidente constitucional de Honduras.
      Por sobre todo, expresamos nuestra inequívoca solidaridad con el pueblo de Honduras y hacemos un firme llamado al respeto del orden constitucional. Independientemente de las disputas democráticas en cuanto a la legitimidad de la gestión del Presidente Manuel Zelaya Rosales, consideramos inaceptable el rol de las Fuerzas Armadas de Honduras como árbitro definitorio de tales disputas.  Nuestra historia nos ha enseñado que no deb emos utilizar la fuerza militar como única vía de resolver los desafíos de la gobernabilidad democrática.
      Finalmente, creemos en el proceso democrático que se ha venido gestando en Honduras a lo largo de las últimas décadas, que aun cuando imperfecto, nos ofrece a los Hondureños que viven en Honduras, como a los que vivimos afuera, la mejor manera de contribuir a la gran empresa de hacer de Honduras un país más justo y mas inclusivo de todo el pueblo hondureño.  Exigimos el regreso al orden constitucional al breve plazo posible, y el retorno inmediato del Presidente Constitucional José Manuel Zelaya al país.
      ##

  •  Close the SOA down (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    betson08, Turkana, lotlizard, Johnny Q

    We no longer need the SOA, so why doesn't the US close it down?

  •  SOA is a straw man (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cris0000, MGross

    Yeah, some bad shit can be traced back to their alumni. But, hell—why don't we close down Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, too? Let's not stop there, there are schools everywhere that have graduated people who've gone on to do terrible things. You make it seem as if ousting the President was what the guy was trained for. In any case, your suggestion here is that the US was involved in the coup, and there's no evidence of that in this diary.

    Not that i'm much bothered by this "coup" in Honduras. One less narcissistic "leader" who can't step down at the end of a democratically-mandated term, is how i see it.

    "They're telling us something we don't understand"
    General Charles de Gaulle, Mai '68

    by subtropolis on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 08:34:25 AM PDT

  •  Honduran "by birth" is misleading (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pr Halios, betson08, cris0000, MGross

    Honduras recognizes the children of native born Hondurans as "Hondurans by birth" even if they were born outside of Honduras. For them the legal definition of  "by birth" is  that you are either born in Honduras or automatically qualify as a citizen because of one or both of  your parents.

  •  Guilt by Association (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Frank, cris0000

    So since a person graduated from SOA, he is automatically suspect in anything he does? Is that the point you are trying to make?
    while I have no love for the SOA, it seems a bad point to try and say that since he went their his motives must always be suspect and he must be in the pocket of the US.

  •  An email from Honduras (10+ / 0-)

    by Kenny Castillo, to Garifuna link.

    Of course it's in Spanish. I'll give the English translation first. I had a tough time translating the eloquent parts, so bear with me, and check the Spanish original below.

    The Day After the Coup

    Th tension, the suspense and aroma of human disgrace can be sensed in all corners of Honduras, as can the envy of the residents of Tegucigalps, who have been cut off from Telesur, CNN, Telnet, Channel 10 Nicaragua, as well as local television stations that supported President Zelaya, for those who live outside of the city. All are afraid to leave for work. Channel 8 and the National Government Radio are also off the air.  

    In Honduras, only 5 percent of the population has Internet access, and it is the only means by which communications on the real situation of the country can flow. Radio and TV are manifestations of the power of victory, and they remain indifferent, existing only to vaccinate the people with lies.  

    At this point we know that all the Presidents of the world, or almost all Presidents, have declared their opposition to the coup and the rise of President Micheletti. The reasoning is that Honduras is still living in cavemen times, under the survival of the fittest, at least from a political point of view. The first great work of Micheletti and its brutal coup government was to declare a curfew, which means that as of yesterday no one can go to the streets between 9 pm and 6 am. This could be a tonic for Michelleti, and is perhaps the most despicable policy in the history of our country.
     
    The other is the continued persecution of those who dared to try to realize the dream of consulting the people. Today more than ever, please know that Hondurans are only an identity card, no more.
     
    Now it remains to be seen if they will the battle for international recognition, the pressure of democratic movements of the earth.
     
    Know that no President of the Congress can be a candidate for the presidency. However Micheletti law passed over the law through the Arc de Triomphe. Here everyone is in collusion, he went to the Court and the honorable "high bench" of the country gave him authority.
     
    Therefore, in its internal elections the Hondurans gave a crushing defeat, also favoring the coup participant Elvin Santos. Not to be outdone Micheletti subsequently negotiated with Santos to remain as Chairman of his party. His own Liberal party rejected that nomination, but he remained in office through the apostolates of the defeated Liberal Party and its radical ring.

    The government may end this Micheletti coup in 6 months, but this is the seed. The people are going to rise up.

    El día despues del Golpe

    La tensión, el suspenso y el aroma a desgracia humana se huele por todos los rincones de Honduras. También se siente envidia de los que viven fuera ya que en Tegucigalpa han sido cortadas la señales de Telesur, CNN, Teletica, Canal 10 de Nicaragua, además de las Emisoras y Televisoras locales afines al Presidente Zelaya. Todos tienen miedo de salir a sus trabajos. Radio Nacional y Canal 8 del Gobierno siguen fuera del aire.

    En Honduras sólo el 5 por ciento de la población tiene acceso a Internet, es el único medio por donde fluyen las comunicaciones sobre la situación real del país. Las manifestaciones de las radios y televisoras del poder son de victoria, se mantienen indiferentes y se han prestado para vacunar solo mentiras al pueblo.
     
    A esta altura todos los Presidentes del mundo o, casi todos los Presidentes, han pronunciado su rechazo al Golpe y al ascenso de Micheletti como Presidente. El razonamiento es que Honduras todavía vive en la época de las cavernas, con la ley del más fuerte, por lo menos desde el punto de vista político, la primera gran obra de Micheletti con su gobierno golpista y brutal, ha sido la de decretar toque de queda, eso significa a partir de ayer nadie puede salir a las calles entre 9 de la noche y 6 de la mañana, ésta podría ser la tónica pues Michelleti es quizá el político más despreciable que pueda haber existido en la historia de nuestro pais.

    Lo otro es que continúa la persecusión contra los que un día osaron materializar la ilusión de consultar al pueblo. Hoy más que nunca sabemos que los hondureños sólo somos la tarjeta de identidad, no más.

    Ahora falta ver como es que van a ganar ellos la batalla del reconocimiento internacional, la presión de los movimientos democraticos de la tierra.

    Sepan que ningún Presidente del Congreso podía hacer candidato a la Presidencia, sin embargo Micheletti se pasó la ley por el arco del triunfo. Aquí como todo está coludido, se fue a la Corte y la honorable "alta magistratura" del país le dio la razón.

    Por eso en las elecciones Internas, los hondureños le dieron una aplastante derrota, favoreciendo al también golpista Elvin Santos. Para no quedarse atras posteriormente Micheletti negoció con Santos quedarse de Presidente de su partido y en su propia cara los liberales rechazaron esa nominación, pero se mantuvo en el cargo gracias a los vencidos apostolados del Partido Liberal y de su argolla radical. El gobierno del golpista Micheletti podrá terminar sus 6 meses, pero ya está la semilla, este pueblo se va a levantar.

    •  Another email from Honduras - they're outraged (6+ / 0-)

      It calls on Hondurans to stand up, so I'm not putting in the author. As always, I've left in the Spanish in case anyone wants to check my translation.

      SECOND DAY OF THE COUP D'ETAT IN HONDURAS
      Monday June 29 2009, 7:00 am

      Please note that the fact that our information networks have been encircled is reflected in the  television broadcast of the Educational Channel TEN and  putschist Wong Rodrigo Arévalo. It has sent out false and completely biased reporting that defends this this situation, which is clearly embarrassing for the history of our country. There is no other channel. On the radio, you can only hear the networks that favor the coup, Radio America  and HRN. We assume that Radiocadena Voices has had to moderate its language to say nothing more than a coup.

      German Leitzelar and other analyst want to fool us with their tangled legal explanations to assert that this is not a coup. How do you dare to deny that even Ambassador Hugo Llorens, the European Union, the OAS, the UN have recognized that this is a COUP D'ETAT?

      The world must know that our people are not totally uninformed, even though there is no media in our country. They want all our voices to be silenced.

      Honduras:
      ¡Organize, write, denounce!
      ¡Declare that Hondurans anywhere in the world are against the coup d'état!

      ¡The de facto authorities should hand over power to President José Manuel Zelaya Rosales!

      By our own honor, do not accept this situation of injustice and the lies of corrupt politicians, the retired military, and media owners!

      We request that the international community reject this de facto government, and that the international media remain present to report the real situation of our country.

      Thousands of people were at a vigil last night vigil of the Casa Presidencial, and today continued the complete rejection of the coup d'etat.

      We call upon all people to go on a general strike, to express their outrage in the streets of very corner of Honduras.
       
      Comunicado No. 7
      SEGUNDO DÍA DEL GOLPE DE ESTADO EN HONDURAS
      Lunes 29 de junio de 2009, 7:00am
      Les informamos que el cerco informativo continúa, apenas se pueden ver en la televisión una emisión del golpista Canal Educativo TEN de Rodrigo Wong Arévalo el cual ha transmitido noticias falsas y totalmente sesgadas a favor de defender esta situación a todas luces vergonzosa para la historia de nuestro país. No hay ningún otro canal. Por la radio, sólo se pueden escuchar las cadenas que favorecen el golpe, Radio América y HRN, suponemos que Radiocadena Voces ha tenido que “moderar” su lenguaje para no hablar más de una situación de GOLPE DE ESTADO.
      Los analistas como German Leitzelar, quieren engañarnos con sus explicaciones legales enredadas para justificar que esta no es una situación golpista, ¿Cómo se atreven a negar esta situación que incluso Embajador Hugo Llorens, la Unión Europea, la OEA, la ONU han reconocido como un GOLPE DE ESTADO?
      El mundo tiene que saber que nuestro pueblo no está siendo totalmente desinformado, que no hay medios de comunicación en nuestro país, que todas las voces quieren ser acalladas.
      Hondureños:
      ¡Organicémonos, escribamos, denunciemos!
      ¡Pronúnciense los hondureños en cualquier parte del mundo en contra del GOLPE DE ESTADO!
      ¡Las autoridades de facto deben entregar el poder a Sr. Presidente José Manuel Zelaya Rosales!
      ¡Por nuestro propio honor, no aceptemos esta situación de injusticia y mentiras de políticos corruptos, militares retirados, dueños de medios de comunicación!

      Les solicitamos a la comunidad internacional que rechacen este Gobierno de Facto, que los medios de comunicación internacionales se mantengan presentes para informar la verdadera situación de nuestro país.
      Miles de personas estuvieron anoche en vigilia en los alrededores de Casa Presidencial, hoy continúa la muestra del rechazo absoluto al GOLPE DE ESTADO.
      Llamamos a todo el pueblo a la huelga general, a expresar su indignación en las calles en todos los rincones de Honduras.

      ORGANIZACIÓN POLÍTICA LOS NECIOS

      ¡VENCEREMOS, NECEDAD!

  •  Obama deserves credit here (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eloise, cadejo4, Johnny Q, al ajnabee

    He is going against the conventional US wisdom and rightly condemning this.

    I was watching univision yesterday.  They devoted their entire news program to this (well, after the soccer game, priorities you know :).

    If we could get a scintilla of coverage about this here as we do there, that would be great.  NPR did a decent job this morning.

    oh well.

    Thanks for the diary!

    The common sense of mankind demands that law shall not stop with the punishment of petty crimes - Robert Jackson's addresses to the Nuremberg Trials

    by Indiana Bob on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 09:24:10 AM PDT

  •  Bush Admin Otto Reich may be involved (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bucadibeppo, Johnny Q

    Via HuffPo "Live Blog: OAS Session on Honduran Coup":

    The Venezuela representative stated, 'I wonder if we wasted time last Friday, debating if this were a coup or a problem of separation of powers... I think we failed, we did not issue a strong enough condemnation, we did not include the name of President Zelaya although we had reason to do so. Why didn't we pronounce as energetically as we will now do today?'

    'Today, someone opened the gorilla's cage and slapped the OAS in the face, with its moderate pronouncement, terribly moderate. We said it was a coup then... I hope we issue a strong condemnation and a pronouncement in favor of the consultation. This has implications for the entire continent.' He mentioned that the organization has remained on the sidelines in other cases--Guatemala, Chile-- and cannot do so now, that history is being repeated.

    He went on to accuse former Bush Under-Secretary of State Otto Reich of complicity in the coup: 'We have information that worries us. These is a person who has been important in the diplomacy of the U.S. who has reconnected with old colleagues and encouraged the coup: Otto Reich, ex sub-Secretary of State under Bush. We know him as an interventionist person... In 2002 he tried to deny the constitutional position of Pres. Hugo Chavez in this body. (reference to 2002 Venezuela coup attempt). Mentioning episodes of the dark history of Reich in the heisphere, he concludes, 'We suffered the First Reich, the Second Reich, and now we are suffering the Third Reich.' He said Reich is operating under an NGO.

    "I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." A. Einstein

    by bewert on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 09:35:53 AM PDT

  •  Statement from Danny Glover (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Johnny Q, al ajnabee

    Who is also an activist interested in Latin American issues.

    Please join me in solidarity with the people of Honduras to determine their own future.
    I urge all to support the citizens of Honduras in their demand that President Manuel Zelaya be restored immediately to his constitutionally elected post and authority as President of Honduras. It is imperative that citizens across the United States write and call upon President Barack Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to quickly execute every available influence to ensure that President Zelaya is safely returned to his post.
    Your voices are urgently needed to encourage our government to exercise its influence to ensure that the Ambassadors of Cuba, Venezuela, and Nicaragua who have be en violently kidnapped are not harmed and are immediately safely returned.
    The flowering of Participatory Democracy in Latin America has been ruthlessly assaulted by anti-democratic sectors of the Honduran elite in collusion with sectors of the armed forces. Their shameless violation of constitutional laws can not be allowed to take hold. The coup d’état against President Zelaya is a threat to the growing desire and organization of citizens across our hemisphere to more actively seek forms and agendas of governance to achieve their basic social, economic, cultural, and political well being.

    Danny Glover

  •  This is a little too easy. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hesiod, betson08

    Good point on the newly installed president not being constitutional.

    However, I think it's lame to go for the "the big bad US caused this" angle.

    Sure, the SOA was not exactly a reputable institution, but that also doesn't mean that everything that anyone who came from there is involved in, is immediately a nefarious plot.

    It definitely seems like this was an illegal coup. However, it also seems that the deposed president wasn't exactly an angel, as he was defying a court order, and trying to get around term limits.

    There is too much knee-jerk thinking going on here. Yes, the US has a bad history in Latin America. But that doesn't automatically mean that they can be held responsible. And it also doesn't mean that anyone in Latin America who dislikes the US is automatically right.

    Presidential politics is like jumping into raw sewage with your mouth open -- Batfish

    by Frank on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:03:04 AM PDT

  •  Born in Yoro, El Progreso, Honduras (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SLKRR, betson08, Geekesque, Pager

    Wikipedia and Chinese news reporting he is in born in Honduras.

    Also he was fighting for the nomination of his party to be their presidential candidate, so I think this would have come out earlier.

    Still no justification for military intervention.

    Tax Paradigms, Feed Imaginations

    by jhpdb on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:20:15 AM PDT

  •  Best Honduran Blog: Revistazo.com (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    betson08

    They are great.

    Covered some tough issues to great affect.

    Started by an NGO working on Human Rights

    They had one of their lawyers assasinated.

    Tax Paradigms, Feed Imaginations

    by jhpdb on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:23:32 AM PDT

  •  Press Release - Hondurans STANDING UP (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jhpdb, lotlizard, cadejo4, Anak, Johnny Q

    The message I posted from Kenny Castillo only aluded to this. Here's a call to ACTION and a statement of purporse.

    This is from the National Council of Popular and Indigenous Organizations of Honduras. (Lenca group)

    Thank GOD for the Internet!

    First the translation, then the original Spanish.

    Civic Council of Popular and Indigenous Organizations of Honduras COPINH

    Condemn the coup in Honduras
    We will not be quiet or humble!

    To the internationally and national community

    COPINH condemns the cowardly and dirty coup d'etat against the President of the Republic Manuel Zelaya Rosales, and denounces the fascist and terrorist role of the armed forces, the National Congress headed by Roberto Michelleti Bain, the ultra right wing sectors of power and the other institutions servile to the interests of the oligarchs and imperialists who, led by the air force, abducted the President before the beginning of the popular consultation [poll]. The people continue to be involved, despite the repression and the continuing campaign of fear, even in front of the barrels of guns. There is practically a state of siege in the capital and the rest of the country, there is disruption of power. They have a list of leaders to be captured, and the Hondurans who are showing great fighting spirit in front of the presidential palace, which is surrounded by the tanks and helicopters. Where even ballot boxes have been installed people are exercising their participation in the consultation as a form of rebellion. The Honduran people continue to are continuing to mobilize.

    Since this morning, our organization has been calling on its base and has begun a walk with representatives of the Lenca people towards  Tegucigalpa.

    In all, we say that the Honduran people participated in great demonstrations, activities in communities, municipalities, takovers of bridges, resistance at the presidential residence, among others.

    From the land of Lempira, Morazán and Visitation Padilla we call to the Honduran people to speak in defense of their rights and real democracy. To the fascists we tell you that you will NOT shut us up that this cowardly act will come back on you very hard.

    We declare that we do not recognize any "substitute", and that we will fight for our people, for our right to dream of PEACE with justice, dignity, equity, freedom and life.

    With the power of ancestral Iselaca Lempira we raises our voices rise for life, justice, freedom, dignity and peace.
     
    June 28 2009.

    Consejo Cívico de Organizaciones Populares e indígenas de Honduras
    COPINH
    Ante el condenable golpe de estado  en Honduras
    ¡No nos callaran, Ni humillaran!!

    A la comunidad nacional e internacional

    El COPINH  condena el cobarde y sucio golpe de estado dado contra el Presidente Constitucional de la República Manuel Zelaya Rosales, denuncia el papel fascista y terrorista  de las fuerzas armadas, al congreso nacional encabezado por Roberto Michellety Bain, a los medios de comunicación de los sectores de poder ultraderechista y las demás instituciones serviles de los intereses oligarcas e imperialistas  quienes han secuestrado en horas de la mañana al Presidente y llevado a la fuerza aérea, previo al inicio de la consulta popular en la  que el pueblo está participando aun con la represión desatada y aun cuando continua  la  campaña de miedo, aun enfrente de los cañones de los fusiles de la soldadesca;  hay prácticamente estado de sitio en la capital y el resto del país; además hay interrupción de energía eléctrica,  tienen un lista de dirigentes para ser capturados, a las y los hondureños que se están manifestando con enorme combatividad frente de la casa presidencial los tienen rodeados con tanquetas y helicópteros, aun así han instalado urnas y están ejerciendo su participación en la consulta como una forma de rebeldía; el pueblo hondureño sigue movilizándose. Nuestra organización desde horas de la mañana está convocando a sus bases y ya ha comenzado una caminata  con representantes del Pueblo  Lencas rumbo a Tegucigalpa.

    A todas y todos les decimos que el pueblo hondureño realiza grandes movilizaciones, acciones en las comunidades, en  los municipios, hay tomas de puentes, resisten frente a la casa presidencial, entre otras.
    Desde las tierras de Lempira, Morazán y Visitación Padilla   hacemos un llamado al pueblo hondureño en general a manifestarse  en defensa de sus derechos y de la democracia real y directa para el pueblo, a los fascistas les decimos que NO nos callaran, que este acto cobarde se les revertirá y muy duro.
    Manifestamos que no reconocemos ningún “sustituto” , Y LUCHAREMOS POR NUESTRO PUEBLO, POR NUESTRO DERECHO A SOÑAR CON PAIS CON JUSTICIA, DIGNIDAD, EQUIDAD, LIBERTAD Y VIDA.
    Con la fuerza ancestral de Iselaca y Lempira se levantan nuestras voces de vida, justicia, libertad, dignidad y paz.

    28 de junio del 2009.

  •  Simple cormpromise. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cris0000, Geekesque, milkbone

    The coup leaders agree to let the ousted President resume his duties -- if he agrees to scrap his unconstitutional attempt to grab power.

    He serves out his term without incident. He can't run again -- just like the Constitution says.

    There are no good guys in this farce. The ousted President was a leftist thug who had no interest in Democratic elections except as a means for him to violate the Honduran constitution and retain power.

    This is a country with a history of coups -- and there is a reason why their Presudent is limited to 1 four year term.

    •  Yeah, the unarmed guy (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      protectspice, Anak, Johnny Q, al ajnabee

      dragged out of his bed and exiled at gunpoint is the thug.

      www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

      by chuckvw on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:40:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thy're all thugs. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Geekesque

        Zeleya's not a good guy. It's like Michael Corleone knocking off Don Barzini.

        •  Well, I guess I'll have to go (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SLKRR, Johnny Q, al ajnabee

          with the elected thug.

          www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

          by chuckvw on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:51:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I dont get that yet (6+ / 0-)

          what for was he a bad guy? He proposed to change a constitution that declares any attempt to change it illegal. What should he have done, roll over and die? Up in the comments here someone posted the relevant article.

          If Zelaya´s "badness" lies just in that by even suggesting (see article) to change the constitution he has forfeited his job then I see little to condemn in such " badness".

          The allegations that he´d want to be a mini Chavez are so far, baseless allegations. Chaff, auto-discardable just as the auto-garbage "fascist" epithet for the coupists.

          I´d like someone to explain what specifically, apart from trying to change something that has declared itself sacrosanct and above human endeavour, had been "bad" ot "thuggish" about this Zelaya.

          Ici s´arrète la loi.

          by marsanges on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 11:01:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Just like if Bush... (0+ / 0-)

            ...decided to ignore Congress and the Suipreeme Court and have a "referrendum" on whether he should be President for another 4 years.

            The Honduran Congress started impeachment proceedings against Zaleya.

            •  Or like if Obama were to do the same thing (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Johnny Q

              In eight years, Right?

              Then obviously it would be justified for the Army to break into the White House, exile him, shut off the electricity and start arresting the cabinet...

              (sarcasm)

              "If you can't lower heaven, raise hell!" - Mother Jones

              by al ajnabee on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 01:03:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Who said it was justified? (0+ / 0-)

                I said BOTH sides were thugs. Zeleya is a leftwing thug and the people who executed the coup were also thugs for going outside the constitutional and legal procedures in place to impeach Zeleya and remove him from office.

                Here is an account from a Honduran blogger who pretty much reflects my own sentiments.

                http://figgylicious.blogspot.com/...

                What I object to is the portrayal of Zeleya as some kind of liberal democrat who was unjustly removed from office by the rightwing plutocrats for merely advocating on behalf of the poor.

                Nope. He was a leftwing proto-autocrat who wanted to violate the Honduran cponstitution to stay in power past his term of office.

          •  Ummm...excuse me? (0+ / 0-)

            The portion of the constitution he wanted changed was the single term limit so he could run again.

            It's not like he was campaigning to add a bill of rights to the Honduran constitution. He was trying to pull a Hugo Chavez.

    •  Should Compromise apply to Thuggish Uribe? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chuckvw, Anak, Johnny Q, al ajnabee

      Just asking.

      After all, the Colombian constitution provides for one term.

      Yet, AntiUnion Uribe is jockeying for a third term.

      Should the OAS offer Uribe your compromise?

      Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

      by PatriciaVa on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:49:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I just got Michelletti's email address (0+ / 0-)

    in an email.

    For what it's worth:

    robertomicheletti@congreso.gob.hn

  •  Hypocrites of the week: Russia! (0+ / 0-)

    From their foreign ministry:

    "Russia strongly condemns these acts and calls for the urgent return of order in Honduras," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

    "All the players in the political process of this country must remain within the legal and constitutional framework," it said.

    "The removal by force of the elected president is a violation of that republic's constitution and flouts democratic norms," the statement said.

    A) The Russians don't even practice democracy in tehir own country

    B) They were much tamer when speaking about Iran's unconstitutionl crushing of dissent after a stolen election.

  •  If this is true (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    betson08, Anak, Johnny Q

    we are looking at a classic SOA operation:

    Citing a report from Mexico’s Notimex news service, the blog reports that Cesar Ham, presidential candidate and leader of the Democratic Unification of Honduras party, was killed while resisting arrest in the early hours of Sunday morning, as the Honduran military fanned out to arrest leftist leaders throughout the country, including President Manuel Zelaya and the country’s chancellor, Patricia Rodas.

    www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

    by chuckvw on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:37:37 AM PDT

  •  im late to that (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geekesque

    so thats probably going to the bitbucket.

    But - can somebody explain to me...

    why are we suddenly rooting for a guy who ordered the military to perform unconstitutional acts and when military leaders refused (kudos to them) fired them?

    Why are we rooting fopr a guy who was ordered by the highest court of his country to be removed from office?

    We are we rooting for a guy who basically tries to abolish the constitution?

    What happened to the rule of law? Are we only supporting certain parts of it, not others?

    •  Is Iran's Highest Court beyond Reproach? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Johnny Q

      Just asking.

      I have as much faith in the Supreme Court of Honduras as I do in the higest court of Iran.

      As someone who has dealt with the Mexican Court system, I can assure you there is widespread corruption, and little regard for the rule of law.  I can cite two global telecommunication companies who held substantial stakes in Mexican companies, and ultimately left because the court system repeatedly sided with the Mexican nationals.

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

      "Accordingly, I call on the officials of the judicial branch to deal severely and ruthlessly with the leaders of the agitations, whose fodder comes from America and Israel, so that everyone learns a lesson from it," Khatami said, according to a translation by state radio. Under Islamic law, the punishment for waging war against God is death.

      Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

      by PatriciaVa on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:56:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  what actually is it... (0+ / 0-)

        ... that makes the Honduran Supreme Court more like a Theocratic Religious Council and less like the US Supreme Court?

        Care to provide some argument?

        Is it appointed by an unelected council of clerics, or elected by the national parliament for a fixed term?

        Does it base its decisions on religious texts, or on a corpus of law and a constitution that have beeen lawfully enacted in Honduras?

        Questions....

    •  We're not rooting for him. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marsanges

      We're rooting for a system of democracy to take care of his illegal referendum, not a military coup to do the dirty work instead.

      They're like the Inspector Clouseaus' of the blogging world.

      by Pager on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:59:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  LEARN ITALIAN (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Turkana, Geekesque, Pager

    I don't even speak more than a couple of words, but I can tell that the website you link to says he was born in El Progreso, which happens to be in Honduras!!  His family origin is Italy.  

    Same as my wife's family origin being Yazd, Iran even though she was born in S. America.

    "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -- Dom Hélder Câmara

    by SLKRR on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:48:43 AM PDT

    •  BTW, I unrecommended because of this n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pager

      "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -- Dom Hélder Câmara

      by SLKRR on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:49:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So did I. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SLKRR, marsanges

        This diary has great information about the SOA connection and I work with SOA Watch and am thrilled to see that fleshed out. But to make a central point of this diary about the newly named president not being from Honduras while watching this rise to the top of the Rec List is quite disturbing.

        I'd like to see a clarification and correction by Turkana, ASAP. This is sloppy reporting at its very worst.

        They're like the Inspector Clouseaus' of the blogging world.

        by Pager on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:56:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  For example, this page from the same site (0+ / 0-)

      All of the Italian-descended members of the United States Congress:

      http://es.camera.it/...

      A bit out of date, but I think pretty much everybody in that list was born in the US.

      "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -- Dom Hélder Câmara

      by SLKRR on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:57:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Turkana: Thanks for the edit! n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Turkana

      "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -- Dom Hélder Câmara

      by SLKRR on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 11:38:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Micheletti was born in Honduras, not Italy. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chrisfs, betson08, Pager

    The diary should be edited to remove the misleading claim.

    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

    by Geekesque on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 10:51:01 AM PDT

  •  Anti-Bloomberg but Pro-Zelaya? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RenderQT

    So when Mike Bloomberg wants to illegally circumvent term limits as NYC mayor, the hue and cry is audible here, but when Zelaya tries it through a "referendum" in Honduras, he's now a leftist hero?

    Both Zelaya AND the coup are wrong--choosing sides in this one is a losing battle.

  •  OAS declaration says COUP D'ETAT (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bewert, lotlizard, cadejo4, marsanges, Johnny Q

    You can link to this on the OAS home page.

    CURRENT SITUATION IN HONDURAS

    (Adopted at the meeting of June 28, 2009)

    THE PERMANENT COUNCIL OF THE ORGANIZATION OF AMERICAN STATES,

    CONSIDERING the grave situation taking place in the Republic of Honduras as a result of the coup d’etat against the government of President José Manuel Zelaya Rosales, which has produced an unconstitutional alteration of the democratic order, which the Permanent Council rejects and repudiates;

    CONCERNED with the break-down of the constitutional order in the Republic of Honduras;

    REAFIRMING the importance of strict adherence and respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, and the principle of non-intervention in the internal affairs of other States;

    REITERATING the principles established in the Charter of the Organization of American States and the Inter-American Democratic Charter on the strengthening and preservation of the democratic institutional system in  member states, and

    RECALLING CP/RES. 952 (1699/09) of June 26, 2009, relative to the situation in Honduras,

    RESOLVES:

    1. To condemn vehemently the coup d’état staged this morning against the constitutionally-established Government of Honduras, and the arbitrary detention and expulsion from the country of the constitutional president José Manuel Zelaya Rosales, which has produced an unconstitutional alteration of the democratic order.
    1. To demand the immediate, safe and unconditional return of President José Manuel Zelaya Rosales to his constitutional functions.
    1. To declare that no government arising from this unconstitutional interruption will be recognized.
    1. To instruct the Secretary General of the OAS to urgently attend the meeting of the Central American Integration System (SICA), that will take place in Managua, Nicaragua, and in accordance with Article 20 of the Inter-American Democratic Charter, to carry out all necessary consultations with the member states of the Organization.
    1. To vehemently condemn all acts of violence and especially the reported arbitrary detention  of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Patricia Rodas, other Ministers of Government, as well as the Mayor of San Pedro Sula, and associated individuals, and to demand that their physical safety and security be respected and that they be released immediately.
    1. To immediately convene a special session of the OAS General Assembly to take place at the headquarters of the Organization, on Tuesday, June 30, 2009, to take whatever decisions it considers appropriate, in accordance with the Charter of the Organization of American States, international law, and the provisions of the Inter-American Democratic Charter.
    1. To instruct the Secretary General to transmit the resolution to the Secretary General of the United Nations.
  •  Smells like a Bay of Pigs plan (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lotlizard, protectspice, Johnny Q

    The fact that this happened in the first 6 months of the Obama admin. makes me think the planning for the coup was initiated by Cheney before 1/20/09.  The time bombs were set to go off right before the referendum on letting Honduras scrap the president's term limits, if the vote couldn't be cancelled any other way.

    Otto Reich, Eliot Abrams, SOA and all the usual neocon suspects most likely had a hand in this.  Who knows how many more of these Cheney time bombs will explode in the coming months?

  •  New Yorkers: Demo at Honduran Mission 3pm (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cadejo4

    Against the Coup, in solidarity with the Honduran Mission to the UN (this is what it is, don't argue with the OAS and common sense folks).

    Cuando: 3:00 PM – 6:00 PM

    Where: In front of the Honduran Mission. First Ave between 48 and 49 en Manhattan

    Contact: William Camacaro 718.510.5523;  Daniel Vila 718.414.9558

           

  •  Whether he was Honduran by birth out of line (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Johnny Q

    here.  Haven't we had our bellyful of Rethuglicans playing the birth certificate card.  The point is that he is not democratically elected, was installed by the Honduran military and was trained by the SoA.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself - FDR. Obama Nation. -6.13 -6.15

    by ecostar on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 11:43:16 AM PDT

  •  How many Central American officers went to SOA? (0+ / 0-)

    How big were the graduating classes at SOA?
    How many Central American officers were there?
    If it's a large number of them or even a majority, then just because someone went there doesn;t mean anything.
    It's kinda like saying that the military people who carried out torture in Iraq went through basic training, so anyone who went through basic training must be suspect.

  •  Here is the other side of the story (0+ / 0-)

    Honduras’ La Prensa stated that:

    An official statement of the Supreme Court of Justice explained that the Armed Forces acted under lawful grounds when detaining the President of the Republic, and by decommissioning the materials to be used on the illegal poll which aimed to bring forth Executive Power against a judicial order. http://www.laprensahn.com/...

    While it is true that Roberto Micheletti does not qualify (based on his birthplace), Manuel Zelaya was asking for it.  It doesn’t matter what the ORGANIZATION OF AMERICAN STATES thinks about this.  What matters is that what the Honduran courts say.

    CNN en espanol also mentioned that Zelaya was arrested by court order.

    According to ‘Noticias 24’ the Hondoran Congress has officially ousted Zelaya for repeated violations of the Constitution.  http://www.noticias24.com/...

    From everything I’ve read so far, the courts, congress and a majority of Zelayas own party were against his move.  This doesn’t sound like a coup to me.  I suppose that (without any real evidence) we could assume that the military is holding a gun to the head of the supreme court, but I’ve never been one for un-verified conspiracy theories.  

    Globovision quotes Chavez as saying that "If they swear in Roberto Micheletti (the head of the Honduran Congress), we’ll overthrow him." http://www.globovision.com/...

    The Union of American Democratic Organizations, UnoAmérica, requests that democratic governments declare themselves against Hugo Chávez’s meddling in Honduras’s internal affairs.
    http://www.unoamerica.org/...

  •  Where's Negroponte? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Turkana

    Who wants to put money on his involvement, the little dear.

    Extreme Republican Evangelical Elitism is destroying America

    by shpilk on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:28:01 PM PDT

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