Skip to main content

Photobucket

With the 3-day period imposed by OAS for the restoration of democracy and the Presidency of Manual Zelaya in Honduras slowly ticking down, diplomacy is proceeding between OAS and Roberto Micheletti's government.  The military coup has imposed a harsh curfew, a feature of which is the withdrawal of various civil rights.  Neither side has so far blinked. No progress in resolving the coup has been reported.

Join me in Tegucigalpa.

According to the New York Times OAS diplomacy to end the military coup in Honduras is proceeding.  The United States role in this apparently is to give a cold shoulder to the coup, to cut off joint military operations, and to threaten a cessation of all aid if Zelaya is not restored to the presidency.

As the public standoff between Honduras and the rest of the world hardened, quiet negotiations got under way on Wednesday to lay the groundwork for a possible return of the nation’s ousted president, Manuel Zelaya.

After a marathon session that stretched close to dawn, the Organization of American States "vehemently" condemned the removal of Mr. Zelaya over the weekend and issued an ultimatum to Honduras’s new government: Unless Mr. Zelaya is returned to power within 72 hours, the nation will be suspended from the group.

Diplomats said they had rarely seen the hemisphere’s leaders unite so solidly behind a common cause.

The new Honduran government was equally resolute, warning that there was no chance Mr. Zelaya would be restored to office and that the nation would defend itself by force.

Both sides have stated their positions.  Both appear inflexible.  Has there been any movement?  No. The OAS secretary general, José Miguel Insulza, went to Tegucigalpa today for further talks.  Proposals being discussed involve an amnesty for the golpistas, Manual Zelaya saying he won't seek an additional term, and restoration of Zelaya as President. Also, members of the Congress in Honduras are reportedly looking for a compromise.  Details of those proposals aren't available.

Meanwhile, according to the Times, the conflict in Honduras continues to be highly polarized:

Demonstrations for and against the new government continued in Tegucigalpa and other cities across the country [on Wednesday].  Then, in a move to crack down on the opposition, the nation’s Congress approved a decree on Wednesday that applies during the overnight curfew and allows security forces to arrest people at home and hold them for more than 24 hours.

"It’s for the tranquillity of the country," said the new president, Roberto Micheletti.

The government has accused pro-Zelaya demonstrators of vandalism and violence, noting that a grenade, which did not explode, was hurled at the Supreme Court on Tuesday. Those who oppose the government, meanwhile, accuse the security forces of stifling dissent through brutality.

The withdrawal of civil rights is serious.  It includes curtailing the right to assemble and to seek redress from the Government as well as the right not to be held without charge for more than 24 hours.  These measures apparently permit the Government to detain the opposition if the arrests are made during the curfew:

According to Honduras' El Tiempo, the following constitutional guarantees have been suspended:

   * Article 69, which guarantees the personal freedom.
   * Article 71, which states that no one can be detained or held incommunicado for more than 24 hours without an arrest warrant.
   * Article 78, which guarantees freedom of association and freedom of assembly.
   * Article 81, which states, "Everyone has the right to free movement, to leave, enter and remain in national territory."

El Tiempo reports that with the aforementioned guarantees suspended, "no one can hold meetings, neither public nor private, be it in the streets, in churches, in their own homes, or in union or guild halls."

source.

Meanwhile, Kristin Bricker reports:

he anti-coup movement's momentum appears to be building across Honduras, with protests reported across the country.  Meanwhile, international pressure builds against the coup government.

Over the past two days, anti-coup protests were reported in Tocoa, Colon; San Pedro Sula; La Ceiba; El Progreso, Yoro; Tegucigapla; Intibuca; El Paraiso; Olancho; Santa Barbara; and all over President Zelaya's native department of Olancho.  Moreover, the BBC reports that citizens have blocked major highways in Copan and Tocoa.  The BBC's sources on the ground in Honduras say anti-coup protests have occurred in the majority of Honduras' departments.

And so, we sit and wait.  I hope there will be a diplomatic resolution of the problem and a restoration of democracy in Honduras.  In the meanwhile, there is very little any of us can do except to watch and to spread the news.

-----------
cross-posted from The Dream Antilles and docuDharma

Originally posted to davidseth on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 09:45 AM PDT.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  Also, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    betson08, jessical, cadejo4

    this story has faded from the front pages of the Trad MediaTM, where it was barely present.  That concerns me greatly: people in the US need to know what is going on in their backyard.  This isn't as much about doing something in solidarity with the democracy movement as it is about knowing what happens in Uncle Sam's nearby shadow.

    •  Today's a slow day (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      betson08

      devoted to behind-closed-doors negotiations.  If there's no news by Saturday it's time to get worried.

      I do think Zelaya will be reinstated, but I'm concerned the compromise may include no significant constitutional reforms.

      Richard "The Dick" Cheney: screwing America since 1969

      by litho on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 11:13:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Honduras AG (0+ / 0-)

    has said Zelaya will be prosecuted if he returns to the country. it could be a very short presidency if he returns!

    •  Today is a slow day (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      betson08, cadejo4, davidseth

      in what has been a fast-developing story.

      Remember that Zelaya was initially going to return today, accompanied by OAS Sec-Gen Insulza and Presidents Correa (Ecuador) and Fernandez (Argentina).  In that context, the AG did threaten to arrest Zelaya, and it would have been an interesting showdown with the international community.

      However, the OAS convinced Zelaya to hold off returning until Sunday, after the 72-hour ultimatum to the golpistas had run its course.  If Honduras has not reached an agreement with the OAS by that time, its membership in the organization will be suspended and it will undoubtedly face even greater sanctions from the international community than it is already suffering.

      If the golpistas do back down and compromise with Zelaya and the international community, I seriously doubt the AG -- the same one, btw, who's spreading false rumors of drug trafficking against Zelaya -- will insist on carrying his arrogant and boastful threat.

      Richard "The Dick" Cheney: screwing America since 1969

      by litho on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 11:05:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hose to House Arrests: (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    litho, betson08, cadejo4, davidseth, Anak

    Some of the most severe repression has been reported in President Zelaya's native department of Olancho.  The Committee of Family Members of Disappeared Detained People in Honduras reports that the military is going house-to-house in communities all over the department and arresting young men.  Young men have fled into the mountains, but the commuities report that military patrols are persuing them there as well.

    From your link.

    "The military industrial complex not only controls our government, lock, stock and barrel, but they control our culture." - Mike Gravel

    by Wilberforce on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 10:05:44 AM PDT

  •  WOLA statement on rights suspension (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    litho, betson08, davidseth, Anak

    The Washington Office on Latin America (WOLA) statement on this:

    "Honduran officials are arguing that their actions in overthrowing President Zelaya were constitutional.  We strongly disagree.  But whatever the legal situation, actions by Honduran authorities to revoke civil liberties should not be tolerated," said Joy Olson, Executive Director of WOLA.  "It is outrageous that the Honduran Congress, which claimed to be acting in defense of the constitution, would now suspend Hondurans’ constitutional rights."

    Article on forced military recruitment:

    The Honduran army is forcibly recruiting young men into its ranks after ousting the country’s elected president in a coup last weekend, human rights activists said Wednesday.

    Reina Rivera, director of the Honduran rights organization Ciprodeh, and the Rev. Ismael Moreno made the accusation in a conference call with Costa Rican journalists.

    "I had seen the universe as it begins for all things. It was, in reality, a child's universe, a tiny and laughing universe." Loren Eiseley

    by cadejo4 on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 10:09:29 AM PDT

  •  Thousands of Hondurans happy (0+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Hidden by:
    Wilberforce

    that Zelaya was kicked out:

    http://www.laprensahn.com/...

    •  Thousands? Out of 7.5 million? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      litho, davidseth, Anak

      Yeah, sounds about right.

      "The military industrial complex not only controls our government, lock, stock and barrel, but they control our culture." - Mike Gravel

      by Wilberforce on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 10:16:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  As long as you understand (7+ / 0-)

      that you're citing the most rabidly pro-coup newspaper in Honduras, La Prensa in San Pedro Sula, this is fine and provides some perspective. It should be noted, however, that La Prensa did not print a single photo from a large, anti-coup rally in San Pedro Sula's central park yesterday. It is effectively functioning as a propaganda arm of the golpistas at this moment. As I say, all information has value, as long as we understand where the biases lie.

      "I had seen the universe as it begins for all things. It was, in reality, a child's universe, a tiny and laughing universe." Loren Eiseley

      by cadejo4 on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 10:17:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's a deeply divided country (0+ / 0-)

        But there are plenty of Hondurans that are quite happy that Zelaya is gone.

        •  We all know that - n/t (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          litho, davidseth

          "I had seen the universe as it begins for all things. It was, in reality, a child's universe, a tiny and laughing universe." Loren Eiseley

          by cadejo4 on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 10:21:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  what do you do then? (0+ / 0-)

            See, that's why I ultimately blame Zelaya. Not because he's the only one to blame, but because he started this. The US is also pretty divided but our institutions are very strong and we all accept the rule of law. I certainly wasn't happy with Bush vs Gore outcome, but I accepted the SC ruling as did the rest of the country. In Latin America a Bush vs Gore ruling would have led to a civil war. Not here.

            Zelaya may have had the best intentions in the world (I personally doubt that) but in a deeply divided society a president can't simply ignore the judiciary, dare the AG to arrest him, claim the police will do only what he says, and hope it all ends well.

        •  Since they had to round up and force people to (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          davidseth

          'demonstrate' FOR the Coup; I'd say not so many.

          "The military industrial complex not only controls our government, lock, stock and barrel, but they control our culture." - Mike Gravel

          by Wilberforce on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 10:23:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I hear the oligarchs are ecstatic about it (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Wilberforce, cadejo4, davidseth

          It is deeply divided between the wealthy few and the vast majority of poor, mostly indigenous, people. Numerically, I doubt that coup supporters are more than 20% of the population (a WAG, but I bet it is high).

          The coupsters are really showing their stripes with their abandoning constitutional guarantees of basic freedom of assembly, safety in one's own home, and freedom of speech.

             

          According to Honduras' El Tiempo, the following constitutional guarantees have been suspended:

                * Article 69, which guarantees the personal freedom.
                * Article 71, which states that no one can be detained or held incommunicado for more than 24 hours without an arrest warrant.
                * Article 78, which guarantees freedom of association and freedom of assembly.
                * Article 81, which states, "Everyone has the right to free movement, to leave, enter and remain in national territory."

             El Tiempo reports that with the aforementioned guarantees suspended, "no one can hold meetings, neither public nor private, be it in the streets, in churches, in their own homes, or in union or guild halls."

          Yep, I want to stand shoulder to shoulder with folks that do this after kidnapping and expelling the elected president and ignoring unanimous world opinion condemning their actions. My kind of people. Maybe they can start up a "White Hand" chapter like they had in El Salvador or get with Ollie North to get a contra (we are not terrorists, we are "freedom fighters") cell going to help out with the door to door rounding up of the coup opponents.

          •  you are wrong (0+ / 0-)

            quite wrong.

            Start by talking to people in Honduras.

            In case you missed it Zelaya is one of the biggest oligarchs of all.

            •  I noticed you didn't address the suspension (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Wilberforce, cadejo4

              of the various constitutional freedoms listed in the article noted above. I guess that is good with you. I am sure you can find Ollie North's number and get him to support the coupsters.

              •  Not good with me (0+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                Hidden by:
                Wilberforce

                But it's happened in the US as well, so it's not uncommon.

                Just what is it with you zealots that anyone who disagrees with you must be a crazy right winger?

                •  I assume you are referring to WWII internment (0+ / 0-)

                  a move that was condemned by our own government in retrospect. If you have any examples after WWII I would love to know about them. And just because it is common (I dispute this in the post WWII era), doesn't make it acceptable, yet you defend the coupsters. What is that about?

                  •  I don't defend anyone (0+ / 0-)

                    I am simply explaining most posters here don't have a clue as to the law and politics behind all of this.

                    Honduras is a very poor, very backwards country, whose institutions are like something out of 19th century America, or worse. If they were up to US WW2 standards that would be a huge step forward.

                    In that context Zelaya broke the law and was kicked out. They should have arrested and tried him, maybe if he returns they can do that.

                    •  The Honduran constitution (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Wilberforce, Anak

                      and you know this, was written in 1982.

                      What's backward about the country is its continued rule by an oligarchy, whose roots do stretch back to the nineteenth century.

                      Zelaya, of course, was trying to break oligarchic rule.  And he was overthrown for doing it.

                      Richard "The Dick" Cheney: screwing America since 1969

                      by litho on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 11:32:19 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Please (0+ / 0-)

                        You don't really believe Zelaya is doing this for anyone but himself, do you? No one can be that naive.

                        Zelaya himself is a oligarch and his only concern is to keep power, sadly far too common in Latin America today.

                        •  I don't claim to know why Zelaya (0+ / 0-)

                          is doing anything.

                          I do claim to know that the way the oligarchs responded to Zelaya's threat demonstrates exactly how their rule is illegitimate.

                          Any constitution that resolves constitutional crises through a resort to military force is by its very nature anti-democratic.  And I know that Zelaya's objective was to change that constitution.

                          Richard "The Dick" Cheney: screwing America since 1969

                          by litho on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 11:53:12 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Honduras' constitution (0+ / 0-)

                            is a reflection of its past. The total prohibition on reelection was put there because it was seen as a way to limit a future dictator wannabe. It's not perfect, but then which constitution is?

                            It's not the oligarchs, I suggest you talk to people in Honduras, tens of thousands across the country have been marching against Zelaya's return in the last few days. It's a very divided country.

                            There was a Dkos poster here the other day, originally from Honduras. He was very much against the coup but he explained most his family back in Honduras supported it.

                    •  false again (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      davidseth

                      You pointed people to Octavio Sánchez and his opinion piece defending the actions of the coupsters! I assume that you agree with his statements since you said "BTW, here's some information so you know what you are talking about". This article provided his views not any information and he lied about the referendum. Do you stand by his statements or not?

                      •  No, I don't agree with Sanchez 100% (0+ / 0-)

                        But he is an expert on the topic so I read him. Since you seem interested in this and are clearly not an expert, that's why I recommended it.

                        Where did he lie?

                        •  I'm wondering. (0+ / 0-)

                          precisely what your position is on this.  Are you saying that deporting Zelaya was ok (and legal under Hon. law) and that the UN, the OAS, the US, the EU all are wrong to say he should be reinstated in the presidency?  If that's wrong, I'd like to know what your point is.

                          •  No (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't think deporting him was the right or even legal move. I think it totally backfired. According to some of the military involved, after they got the order from the Supreme Court to arrest him, they the decided to send him to Costa Rica to avoid bloodshed.

                            The available evidence is that Zelaya was being investigated by that country's AG, long before the coup. Zelaya dared the AG to do anything about it, and claimed the police would only follow his orders. Zelaya made clear he wanted a reelection and the SC ruled his actions illegal. Congress passed a law making the referendum illegal. Zelaya ignored it all. So the AG went to the courts and the courts gave the military the order to arrest him.

                            I think they should have simply arrested him and sent him to trial. Maube if he returns tey can do that.

                        •  that the referendum was about term limits (0+ / 0-)

                          When Zelaya published that decree to initiate an "opinion poll" about the possibility of convening a national assembly, he contravened the unchangeable articles of the Constitution that deal with the prohibition of reelecting a president and of extending his term. His actions showed intent.

                          The bgallot for hte referendum did not address any specific issues about term limits or anything substantive issues at all.

                          Again, you can't legally kidnap and exile someone for their intentions, even in Honduras. It is the same kind of extralegal thing that bush did and Obama is continuing with preventive detention.

    •  Could that be translated and given context? (0+ / 0-)

      Also, does anyone have a link to a translated version of the Honduran Constitution?

    •  By the way, citing right wing propaganda is (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Anak

      Troll Worthy.

      "The military industrial complex not only controls our government, lock, stock and barrel, but they control our culture." - Mike Gravel

      by Wilberforce on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 10:24:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  how silly (0+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        Hidden by:
        Anak

        are you 15?

        •  If you knew that this paper is a front (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Anak

          for the Coup leaders, and did not mention this, then you should be ashamed.

          "The military industrial complex not only controls our government, lock, stock and barrel, but they control our culture." - Mike Gravel

          by Wilberforce on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 10:29:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  how very silly (0+ / 1-)
            Recommended by:
            Hidden by:
            Anak

            You need to read up on Honduras politics.

            •  You should be ashamed. (0+ / 0-)

              Or move to redstate--they love military coups over there.

              "The military industrial complex not only controls our government, lock, stock and barrel, but they control our culture." - Mike Gravel

              by Wilberforce on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 10:48:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  very silly and infantile (0+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                Hidden by:
                Tom J

                calling names and wanting to kick people out you don't agree with.

                •  Posting right wing propaganda (0+ / 0-)

                  is not allowed.  Especially bad when you tried to pretend it was an independent source, which it now appears you never thought it was.  

                  I have not called any names, or even troll rated you --in fact I have put up with your inane personal comments such as 'infantile'.  

                  I have suggested you might feel more at home at Red State, where Coup supporters--and Honduran Death Squad supporters -- are welcome.

                  "The military industrial complex not only controls our government, lock, stock and barrel, but they control our culture." - Mike Gravel

                  by Wilberforce on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 11:05:36 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  hahaha (0+ / 1-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Hidden by:
                    Anak

                    Does this make you feel better?

                    I've been around Dkos since before you knew it existed so I suggest you leave your reading recommendations to others.

                  •  BTW, here's some information (0+ / 0-)

                    so you know what you are talking about:

                    http://www.csmonitor.com/...

                    •  This guy is a tool of the coupsters (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Wilberforce, davidseth, Anak

                      Octavio Sánchez gets his facts wrong about the non-binding referendum. It does not reference term limits. It only asks if people want to reform the constitution. It does not specify what kinds of reforms will be considered.

                      Our Constitution takes such intent seriously. According to Article 239: "No citizen who has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform [emphasis added], as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years."

                      Ceasing their functions is not the same as kidnapping an elected official and exiling from the country.

                      He was detained and taken to Costa Rica. Why? Congress needed time to convene and remove him from office. With him inside the country that would have been impossible.

                      Why would he need to be out of the country in order for the congress to meet and remove him? If it is all legal and above board, he could be anywhere.

                      This guy is a coup apologist and nothing more.

                      •  hahaha (0+ / 0-)

                        You may act dumb but Hondurans are not that stupid. Zelaya had made clear he was pushing for reelection and had defied all judicial orders.

                        •  name calling (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Wilberforce, Anak

                          About what I expected from you. Don't address the substance of my remarks. Troll.

                          •  Like I wrote (0+ / 0-)

                            Hondurans are not idiots. Zelaya made clear what he was after.

                            Hondurans don't want another Chavez.

                          •  you make my point (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Wilberforce

                            if the nonbinding referendum doesn't violate the law, the government can't legally remove the president for what he doesn't state in the referendum.

                            It was an extra legal kidnapping and no amount of fancy talk can make that go away.

                          •  Sigh (0+ / 0-)

                            Yes, it did violate the law. The judiciary ruled on that. The AG said so. Jeez, how many times do we need to go over this? Every legal institution in the country (COngress, the SC, the AG, the Electoral Tribunal) said that what Zelaya was doing was illegal.

                          •  there is no law (0+ / 0-)

                            that says a nonbinding referendum is illegal. The various bodies you cite said that the binding referendum was illegal. A non binding referendum is legal in Honduras.

                          •  Yes, there is (0+ / 0-)

                            Please, stop opining about what you don't know. The non binding referendum was declared illegal by the judiciary prior to the coup, and Congress passed a specific law against it.

                            That's just one of the reasons Zelaya was under investigation by the country's Attorney General prior to the coup.

                          •  Get your facts straight (0+ / 0-)

                            President Zelaya intended to perform a non-binding public consultation, about the conformation of an elected National Constituent Assembly. To do this, he invoked article 5 of the Honduran "Civil Participation Act" of 2006. According to this act, all public functionaries can perform non-binding public consultations to inquire what the population thinks about policy measures. This act was approved by the National Congress and it was not contested by the Supreme Court of Justice, when it was published in the Official Paper of 2006. That is, until the president of the republic employed it in a manner that was not amicable to the interests of the members of these institutions.

                            the link is here.

                            The congress and judiciary can act extra constitutionally and pass a law. It doesn't make it legal.

                            Further:

                            It is evident that the opposition had no legal case against President Zelaya. All they had was speculation about perfectly legal scenarios which they strongly disliked. Otherwise, they could have followed a legal procedure sheltered in article 205 nr. 22 of the 1982 Constitution, which states that public officials that are suspected to violate the law are subject to impeachment by the National Congress. As a result they helplessly unleashed a violent and barbaric preemptive strike, which has threatened civility, democracy and stability in the region.

                            you state "I don't think deporting him was the right or even legal move. I think it totally backfired. "

                            If this is true, how can you in good conscience defend the actions of the oligarchy against the popularly elected president?

                          •  Oh my God! (0+ / 0-)

                            Are you actually claiming that a law passed by Congress and a ruling by the judiciary is not legal?

                            Are you joking?

                            Once again the referendum was RULED ILLEGAL!!

                            (sorry for the shouting)

                            It doesn't matter if Zelaya thought that unjust, the institutions in Honduras in charge of that ruled it illegal. Zelaya does not have the legal power to undo that.
                             

                          •  shouting while not addressing the facts (0+ / 0-)

                            What exactly about the quoted parts of the honduran constitution or the analysis that followed don't you get? Are you defending the actions of the government based on what was quoted above?

                            I would note that the abrogation of rights that the congress ordered (and we assume the deeply dishonest judiciary approved) violates treaties that the government signed.
                            from downthread:

                            Moreover, the Inter-American Convention on Human Rights and other treaties establish that some rights can never be suspended, including among others the rights to personal integrity and basic judicial guarantees.

                            I guess I don't see what your basic point is. It sounds like what the government did by kidnapping the president was illegal and wrong but I support them anyway because I don't like the elected president. If that is the case, I guess there is no point in addressing you further. You have proved yourself an able dupe for the coupsters.

                          •  The basic point is this (0+ / 0-)

                            Zelaya wanted a referendum. Congress passed a law prohibiting it. The judiciary ruled it was illegal. Zelaya ignored all that and broke the law.

                            Maybe Zelaya is a good guy and all the others are corrupt. Maybe it's the other way around. I suspect the reality is thta they are all a little corrupt.

                            But the law is the law. The president does not get to choose which laws or judicial rulings he follows. That's a dictatorship.

                          •  No leftist is ever the good guy in your eyes (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            davidseth

                            George Bush began a war of aggression, which an American judge at Nuremberg long ago ruled was "the supreme war crime."  Do you think he should be arrested?  Or do you just hide behind the fact that America's rigged institutions will NEVER enforce international law against one of its own?

                            Well, Honduras' institutions are owned by the junior partners of the corporations who own our institutions.

  •  for those that argue coup was legal... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    davidseth, zogren

    This article tries to make the case it was legal becuase it was based on a court order

    then cites the court order

    which says the court ordered the army to remove election materials, not the president

    go figure?!?!?

    Quotes from Judicial Order, Spanish

    Tax Paradigms, Feed Imaginations

    by jhpdb on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 10:27:32 AM PDT

    •  Yes that was true (0+ / 0-)

      The branches of govt didn't want the poll to happen. When Zelaya fired the head of the military because he wouldn't take part, things spiraled into a coup.

    •  There's got to be a mistake in that article (0+ / 0-)

      because this bit just doesn't make any sense:

      La escueta declaración indica que a petición del Ministerio Público, el Juzgado de lo Contencioso Administrativo libró el pasado viernes una orden a las Fuerzas Armadas para que decomisara todo el material para la consulta popular promovida por Zelaya.

      Esa orden no fue acatada por el poder Ejecutivo, por lo que el juzgado instruyó a los militares a que decomisaran todo el material de la consulta popular, en coordinación con fiscales del Ministerio Público.

      [The curt declaration indicates that at the request of the Ministry of Justice, the Court of Administrative Conflicts last Friday issued an order that the Armed Forces confiscate all the materials for the popular survey promoted by Zelaya.

      This order was not respected by the Executive power, for which reason the Court instructed the military to confiscate all the material of the popular survey, in coordination with attorneys from the Ministry of Justice.]

      It looks from that like there were two different judicial orders to the same effect.

      Richard "The Dick" Cheney: screwing America since 1969

      by litho on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 11:27:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My notes on WNYC interview of reporters in TEGUS (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    litho, cadejo4, davidseth, Anak

    WNYC just finished interviewing Marc Lacey from the NY Times, Mike Reed from the Economist, and Frances Robles from the Miami Herald, who are all in Tegucigalpa right now.

    I took notes. Here they are. I tried to write exactly what they are saying, but had to abbreviate some sections.

    Interviewer was Leonard Lopet on his afternoon show.

    Q: Is the situation like Cold War coups?
    A: Manner in which Zelaya was removed rang alarm bells throughout the region. People behind the coup claim it was Zelaya violating the constitution but that's no justification for a coup. What is making the situation difficult is that the govt institutions back the coup.

    Q: With a 30% approval rating why bother with a coup?
    A: The military has turned an undistinguished president into an international cause celebre. It would have been more appropriate to take legal measures taken against him. Govt acts since then are more unconstitutional than those he was accused of. If sanctions are imposed things will get difficult.
    It's really important for Hondurans and the region that negotiations take place.

    Q: How to interpret the state of seige. Do we interpret this as fear of losing control?
    A; Fear that Zelaya will come back and his supporters will cause problems. Want to neutralize opposition before he comes back. Officials have expressed concern for bloodshed if Zelaya returns.

    Q: Analogous to Iran?
    A: Nowhere nearly that level of control, this is a country where there's much more freedom of expression, but it's the same attempts by the govt to control the message. It closed down some television stations, restricted access by CNN and Venezuelan stations. This is a country very concerned about how people might react and street protests getting out of control

    Q: Tensions high for months. Did Zelaya have an idea that a coup was coming?
    A: in a Spn newspaper Zelaya praised Obama for blocking a coup, but it happened 24 hours later.
    Tensions for the past few weeks around Zelaya's determination to go ahead with the consultation.

    Q: Hugo Chavez has accused US of being bheind the coup
    A: Predictable and no evidence. The US has been on the same side as the international community.

    The longer this goes on without Zelaya being restored the more dangerous this could become, and there could be polarization in the region.

    Q: Does something like this have to happen for people to pay attention to a country like Honduras?
    A: So many crises in the region that it hasn't gotten the attention, but anyone paying attention over the last few months would have seen a crisis brewing. A slow motion crisis. The coup was a surprise, but those who have been following the crisis were not surprised it came to this. There were fears somethign like this could have happened.

    Q: Re: threat to arrest Zelaya if he returns, and military has accused him of all kinds of things, including letting Venezuelan planes loaded with cocaine to land in Honduras. WIll

    A: Depends on how much paranoia there is.
    Fear about threat posed by Chavez by many sectors of the society. Chavez has an agenda of buidling a network of clients and allies. Part of the issue is how to deal with over mighty presidents. Threats do not just come from coups - referring to Chavez not Zelaya.

    Then Lopet goes on to a reporter form the Miami Herald who is also in Tegucigalpa, Frances Robles.

    Q:How intense has the crackdown been?
    A: At first it was worse - cites all the tv stations shut down. Says some are back on but with music. Something she's never seen to this degree before is that the media is an active participant in the establishment, or are independent. Either way people who are receiving money from the Hondo govt are giving Hondo govt line, etc. Coverage in the newspapers is REALLY swayed in favor of the coup.

    Q: Was this planned as part of the coup all along?
    A: Absolutely. It would have been too much of a coincidence that the tv went blank at the same time Zelaya was being taken out of country

    Q; AP reporters have been taken away in military vehicles,
    A: There have been others too. Anyone viewed as having news favorable to Zelaya is having problems.

    Q: Cites facebook and Twitter, tech having an impact?
    A: Although there's a vocal opposition, a majority of the people are in support of the coup. Not sure if there's going to be a popular uprising.

    Q: Odd situation where the world is protesting but the people aren't.
    A: Unions, students, marginal neighborhoods want the president back, but the majority of the country thinks Zelaya was causing problems, and they don't understand why the international community is condemning the govt.

    Q: Trumped up charges against Zelaya?
    Newspapers are so actively supporting the govt you're not sure what you're supposed to believe.

    •  I would sure like to know (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      betson08, davidseth

      where these assertions are coming from:

      Cites facebook and Twitter, tech having an impact?
      A: Although there's a vocal opposition, a majority of the people are in support of the coup. Not sure if there's going to be a popular uprising.

      How can there be a popular uprising if the coup opponents are in the minority?

      Q: Odd situation where the world is protesting but the people aren't.
      A: Unions, students, marginal neighborhoods want the president back, but the majority of the country thinks Zelaya was causing problems, and they don't understand why the international community is condemning the govt.

      Some support for these assertions would be nice. Don't marginal (poor, indigenous, lacking political power) neighborhoods describe the majority in the population in the cities? What about the rural poor? Are they supporting the coupsters?

      •  Here's another point (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        litho, davidseth, Anak

        If the anti-coup demonstrations are being repressed, of course you would see fewer of their demonstrations.

        And then Frances Robles at the end says that there's so much media control you don't know what to think.

        However, having lived in Honduras a long time ago, I can tell you it's a conservative society and there will be some support for the coup among normal folks.

        But in remembering that, I'd also like to point out that military dicatorships in Latin America tend to come about when there is support from the middle class. Then, as in the case of the Pinochet dictatorship, they come to regret it after their kids are disappeared from colleges, etc.

        So, we can't argue that somehow democracy requires us to bow down to sectors of society that support coups. It always happens.

    •  You can listen to that segment (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      betson08

      online, here:

      Richard "The Dick" Cheney: screwing America since 1969

      by litho on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 11:29:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Human Rights Watch letter (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    betson08, Wilberforce, davidseth

    to José Miguel Insulza, OAS secretary general:

    http://www.hrw.org/...

    We are especially troubled by the emergency decree that the Honduran Congress approved on Wednesday that provides for the temporary suspension of basic rights, including the right to "personal liberty," freedom of association, freedom of movement, and protections against arbitrary detention.  As you know, international law recognizes that states may suspend some guarantees, but only under exceptional circumstances, including time of war, public danger, or other emergency that threatens the independence or security of the state. Moreover, the Inter-American Convention on Human Rights and other treaties establish that some rights can never be suspended, including among others the rights to personal integrity and basic judicial guarantees.

    I think that's a point worth emphasizing. Some guarantees suspended by the congress can not, in fact, be derogated under treaties and accords signed by the state of Honduras.

    "I had seen the universe as it begins for all things. It was, in reality, a child's universe, a tiny and laughing universe." Loren Eiseley

    by cadejo4 on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 11:44:57 AM PDT

  •  Nation Article by Greg Grandin (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wilberforce

    Just popped into my email.

    Grandin is a historian at NYU.

    Here's an excerpt:

    This left turn is less ideological than pragmatic. Honduras is so broke it "can't even build a road without getting a loan from the World Bank," Zelaya once complained. But that money comes in "dribbles, held up years by paperwork" and often accompanied by onerous terms. In contrast, he said, Petrocaribe financing for infrastructure investment came all at once, at extremely low interest, with no conditions, which helped free up other scarce funds for social services. Through Petrocaribe, Venezuela also provides Honduras with 20,000 barrels of crude oil per day, also on very generous terms.
    For those who presume to rule behind the scenes, Zelaya took a step too far when he began to push for the convocation of a constituent assembly in order to democratize Honduras's notoriously exclusionary political system. Expectedly, these efforts were opposed by the national Congress and the Supreme Court, both of which are controlled by an inbred clique of career politicians and judges invested in keeping Honduran politics restricted--including members of Zelaya's Liberal Party. For its part, the US media seem intent on reporting on events in Honduras through the prism of its obsession with Venezuela's Hugo Chávez. The New York Times, for instance, ran an op-ed by free-market ideologue Alvaro Vargas Llosa, who claimed that the most unfortunate aspect of the coup is not that it derailed Honduran democracy but--wait for it--that it has allowed Chávez to defend democracy and thus claim the "moral high ground." Vargas Llosa describes Zelaya as a man of privilege, an "heir to the family fortune" who had "devoted decades to his agriculture and forestry enterprises" and who had run for president on a conservative platform that included supporting CAFTA. Misleadingly, Vargas Llosa attributes Zelaya's political turn not to the absolute failure of CAFTA and the fiasco of the "war on drugs" but to Chávez's seductions. The US media have also falsely yet unanimously presented Zelaya's moves as a power grab, an effort to end term limits to allow him to run for re-election. But the referendum Zelaya was pushing--which prompted the coup--asked citizens only if there should be a vote on "whether to hold a Constituent National Assembly that will approve a new political Constitution." In other words, Hondurans weren't being asked to vote on term limits or even on revising the Constitution. They were simply being asked to vote on whether or not to have a vote on revising the Constitution, with the terms of that revision being left to an elected assembly.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site