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Contra all the spin we've been hearing from BaucuCon and the GOP about health care, soak in these numbers from the NYT poll yesterday:

To summarize:

  1. Americans trust Obama over congressional GOPers on health care by a 55%-26% margin.
  1. 72% think Congress is moving either too slowly or at the right pace.
  1. 59% think Obama is moving either too slowly or at the right pace.
  1. 76% think health care costs pose a serious threat to the nation's economy.
  1. 66% support a Medicare-style public option for all Americans.

If that's what the Republicans call winning the health care debate, they are even more screwed than has been reported.

More importantly, if BaucuCon doesn't understand these numbers, then they gotta' get out more and stop hanging out with the wingnuts.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 02:51 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

    •  To be fair, nobody knows who republican in congre (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      polar bear

      ss is. Besides, people hate congress. To pair Obama vs. R. Congress, it's kind of unfair...

      Who would you vote for?

      - The Simple Canadian (77%) - Republican In Congress (19%)

      Democrats keep the US from becoming Third World. :)

      by The Simple Canadian on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:27:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  People With Republican Senators Know (0+ / 0-)

        I'm quite certain that many people who have Republican Senators know who there Senator is. Par for the course, most of them will say that their Senator is all right but all those others are no good at all.

  •  So.... (22+ / 0-)

    It is the media, after all, that is trying to kill health care reform.  WTF?

    •  yes, all of 'em (8+ / 0-)

      including the authors of this poll, the NYT who expressed their concern on the front page of the paper today, selling the demise of  health care reform

      Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. --Mark Twain

      by SottoVoce on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:00:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think it's the trend not the snapshot (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Two weeks ago it looked like a lay-up, now the momentum has shifted to doing less and less. That's the real issue I think. As far as momentum goes it is drifting to the center at best.

        "It's like these guys take pride in being ignorant." Barack Obama August 5, 2008

        by thefretgenie on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:06:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Senate Is A Wax Museum Of Sophist Horror (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          hhex65, polar bear
          Was 1 of my '08 siglines.
          Should i bring it back?
          Vampires, leeches and status schmoes are funding our ruin, manipulating the stupid and crushing accountability.
          When will we come to our census?

          Lies at the top cause murder and misery at the bottom. Freedom should be a universal birthright. So many lives end like Neda Agha Soltan.

          by renzo capetti on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:41:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  That's how I see it, too. (0+ / 0-)

          there is no question that Republican spin is having some effect.  They rail with outrage, and the Democrats talk quietly and rationally.  

          We need some outrage to either educate or remind people how broken the system how is, how much in peril every American is because of broken health care and most important:  

              who broke it.

          They have a narrative to rely on:  lower taxes, government is bad and incompetent, freedom-freedom-freedom.  

          Our narrative is, " government is not bad.  No it's not."  We can't spin a decent narrative about the evils of deregulation and runaway profits and how we have sacrificed the health of the American people to the free market?  The monopolies alone of the insurance compancies should be reined in.  Those laws are still on the books, by the way.  They just haven't been enforced since Reagan, and that includes Bill Clinton.  

          Of all the things I thought I could take for granted, it was Obama's ability to draw a larger narrative and make people feel good about being part of it.  Instead, he's devolved to a wonkishness that may win minds, but not does win hearts or connect to the visceral. He's been taking questions for the last month -- town halls, press conferences, letting the narrative be set by everyone else.  The town halls and press conferences are fine and  should be one tier of the approach.  But he should be drawing a bigger picture as well.  

          It was one thing when he could take his time and come in for the kill as a candidate -- it was about electing one man.  Selling a policy and marshalling that policy into law is a whole other ballgame.  His personal presence is now lost in the minutiae of stupid questions, instead of making this about the narrative of progressivism, even if he doesn't want to use that word.  Calling George Lakoff to craft this message.  

          We can win this ground back to be sure.  But this is ground we never should have ceded in the first place.  Some passionate outrage from our spokespeople.  And an inspiring speech by our President.  And seriously -- call George Lakoff.  He'll tell you what to say and how to say it to win this thing.  

    •  I don't get it either (12+ / 0-)

      Even if you use the "corporate media" line with this, a lot of big businesses are behind reform so why is the media so for harming it?

      Sometimes I just think they're getting bored with Obama the Superhero and want to give him a big loss.

      I hate the Senate. Not strong enough...I loathe the Senate.

      by Jeffersonian on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:00:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  To be fair, it's not ALL the media (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bluedoc, beltane, BDsTrinity

      the blue dogs are doing their darnest to undermine health care reform on behalf of their corporate masters.

      You Got It Designs. Web and graphic design services from a small business owned by a fellow kossack!

      by deaniac83 on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:18:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Still, the media is driving me insane today. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ophelia, sherlyle


        And then Tweety asks, "Is Obama losing control of his healthcare message?"


        Remember: That which does not kill you only makes your insurance premiums go higher.

        by smileycreek on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:37:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  If we can't get a strong public option (23+ / 0-)

    with numbers like these, we might as well be ruled by the mullahs. America wants this and needs this. We have supermajorities in Congress. What does it take to get our representatives to represent us?

    "The great lie of democracy, its essential paradox, is that democracy is first to be sacrificed when its security is at risk." --Ian McDonald

    by Geenius at Wrok on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 02:54:36 PM PDT

  •  Both dems and gops are both out of touch (15+ / 0-)

    with the realities of life for most Americans.. The GOP is just slightly more out of touch..

    So, if I were the Dems, I wouldn't celebrate..

    Health care has been an eye opener for a lot of people about just how corrupt and self-serving Washington really is.

    Single Payer works all over the world. Free-market ideology purists ignore decades of global experience, say 'unaffordable "public option" or NOTHING'

    by Andiamo on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 02:54:40 PM PDT

  •  Now all we need is for the Dems to start leading (9+ / 0-)

    and we might get a half way decent bill passed.

    Have you forgotten about Jesus? Don't you think it's time that you did?

    by uc booker on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 02:54:45 PM PDT

  •  But....Gallup and AP says Obama's numbers are (5+ / 0-)

    falling!! Quoting a known liberally biased paper like the NYT's...geez J.L. you're not paying enough attention! [/joke

    Most American's aren't will they get off their butts and call the blue dogs and GOP to get them to vote for health care or not? That's the question.

    The only thing you get from sitting on the fence is splinters in your ass. My Granddaddy!

    by SallyCat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 02:54:49 PM PDT

    •  Did you look at the numbers? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Where prior results are provided, the trend line is not "republicans are losing" it's more "republicans are winning."

      One of the primary arguments Obama has been making is that we must reform health care for the sake of our economy, yet health care as a serious threat to the economy used to rate 61% and now it's dropped to 49%.  That means people think it is less important now than they did a month ago, which is not what Obama has been arguing for.

      I really don't get how Jed got from these numbers to his statement about republicans losing.  Yes, if we can force a vote today, and Congress voted the way Americans want them to, Republicans would lose.  But the verb form he used is about the continued struggle or changing landscape, and in that respect, Republicans are gaining ground.  Not a good thing.

      No on Prop 8::Sometimes I get to hitch a ride on the Democratic Bus--they let me stand on the back bumper.

      by steve04 on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:14:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  not really (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        if you want to get really narrow, public option actually increased over last poll.

        but my point is that after months of attack, before we even have a bill to debate, on the big questions, we're still winning.

        this is a lot like the 2008 preisdential campaign, except last labor day we were actually behind.

        we won then, we'll win now.

        Watch political video at Daily Kos TV | Twitter: @jedlewison

        by Jed Lewison on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:44:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you are correct in your assumptions (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jed Lewison

          People wish so much for instant results, similar to instant gratification.

          It is a process and it is too early to count the Democrats in Congress or Obama out.

          We will win and then we will still have bellyachers.  And those folks who were already complaining about failure on Jan 31st, 2009, there may never be any hope because they are unable to be hopeful.


          WWYTR? tikkyn olam - repairing the world.

          by PaintyKat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 05:44:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Obama's (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        approval numbers are falling, but there's no evidence at all of a GOP revival. Not even Fox News is peddling nonsense that the Reublicans are gaining in public esteem. Just because Obama is less popular does not make the GOP automatically more popular. A lot of people may just be frustrated with both parties right now.

        •  And now we know why (0+ / 0-)

          I suspect at least some of the drop is due to Obama losing support from the left for not moving fast enough and not taking a greater role of leadership than it is from the center thinking that he is doing too much too fast.

          "I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat." - Will Rogers

          by wayward on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 04:24:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  And we need to look carefully at the (0+ / 0-)

          pool of respondents.  It is just as important to look at these polls carefully, just like during the campaign.


          WWYTR? tikkyn olam - repairing the world.

          by PaintyKat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 05:47:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Typical (15+ / 0-)

    the more concern trolling you see telling liberals to surrender or face doom, the more likely its motivated out of fear of a more progressive policy outcome.

    You can't claim solidarity with people if you also want to bomb them

    by LeftHandedMan on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 02:55:01 PM PDT

    •  Target Vulnerable House Republicans (5+ / 0-)

      like Cao in Louisiana so as many 2010 Blue Dog losses are offset as possible, and in the short term don't stop calling and pressuring the House and Senate to do the right thing.

      We have more, now lets get better.

      Somebody spending their day on the DailyKos trying to scare the shit out of you with doom and gloom talk is here for a reason. If they were confident that the Blue Dogs would prevail, or that the GOP had this one derailed, they wouldn't be telling liberals to shut up and take whatever it is you are given and like it or that the fight is already lost so give up already.

      You can't claim solidarity with people if you also want to bomb them

      by LeftHandedMan on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:03:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  One of the most accurate statements for (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      this diary.

      I think fear is a large factor in responses of the general public.  People are experiencing a great deal of discomfort about local and national economic conditions.  When people don't even know where their next paycheck is coming from, health care might not be their biggest concern.

      But trolling is all that the GOP has to do right now.  They certainly don't have anything to trumpet and haven't for more than the last 8 years.

      About the most notorious thing the GOP have in the media right now is how many fools are involved in affairs or being arrested for sexual deviance.


      WWYTR? tikkyn olam - repairing the world.

      by PaintyKat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 05:53:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Time to put people (9+ / 0-)

    power to work.  

    They "prefer an America where parents will lie awake at night worried if they can afford health care their children need."

    by TomP on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 02:55:06 PM PDT

  •  The trouble is in the selling. (11+ / 0-)

    If this is the survey I heard of earlier, it showed that most people functionally support what the Obama plan represents, while being misinformed about what the Obama plan contains (higher costs, can't choose your own doctor, etc etc) so they are 'losing support in the Obama plan' even though they basically support everything it intends to do.

    As usual, the fight will be in information vs. misinformation.

  •  You have no proof, only SCIENCE (8+ / 0-)

    and that's enough for you liberals! This is clearly good news for McCain!

    If man could be crossed with the cat, it would improve man,
    but it would deteriorate the cat. / -9.5, -7.0

    by Amayi on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 02:55:26 PM PDT

  •  And yet, the Dems from a position of strength... (11+ / 0-)

    ...are still fucking this thing up. Gallup says Obama's recent dip in job approval is due to (uncertainty?) over healthcare reform, not the economy. If that's the case, Axelrod and Emanuel should be fucking shamed of themselves.

    Everything the Man of Steele touches turns to Kryptonite.

    by PorridgeGun on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 02:55:27 PM PDT

    •  I wonder how much of that dip (15+ / 0-)

      is coming from people disappointed that he appears to be caving to the same-old-same-old.  
      Could it be that a lot of people are upset that we're NOT getting single-payer?  That we're talking compromise and bipartisanship?  Maybe what they want is something that'll help THEM for a change, and they want it rammed down the throats of all the corporate boot-lickers.

      •  Nobody's polled single payer, not even dKos. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sherlyle, dkosdan

        But we do know people will be disappointed if the Dems water down the public option.

        In the last couple of months, Obama's advisers have allowed the President to get dragged down into the mud with Cheney, Blue Dogs and lame-asses like Harry Reid. I read somwhere that Axelrod is about accumulating political capital, not spending it... or squandering it on bullshit?

        Everything the Man of Steele touches turns to Kryptonite.

        by PorridgeGun on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:16:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  i agree. i think the dip is from those who (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tmo, majcmb1, sherlyle, dkosdan

        are politically active, frankly.

        i know i've been on an emotional rollercoaster for a few weeks now with this health care thing.  and depending on which day i would have been surveyed who knows how i might have responded.

        And I've been accused here of being a sycophant for obama.

    •  Uncertainty whether it would be affordable. (0+ / 0-)

      People aren't waiting with baited breath to hear Obama's every word, they are realizing that he's just another politician and a fairly weak one in trems of his willingness to try anything new at that.

      If Obama was smart he would ditch public option and admit that if we want affordable healthcare, we're going to need single payer - That is just the only responsible thing for him to do at this point to salvage his legacy and win a second term.

      Better now than after another three or four months of pushing a plan that can't succeed, "beating a dead horse"

      the worst thing they could do is after all this hype, come out with something that is limited to just the uninsured or just the very rich and very poor.. and unavailable or unaffordable to everybody else, leaving the vast middle class woefully underinsured and continually being raped by healthcare uncertainty..

      If he does that, people are not only going to be angry, they will be terrified, and they will stop spending...

      Single Payer works all over the world. Free-market ideology purists ignore decades of global experience, say 'unaffordable "public option" or NOTHING'

      by Andiamo on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:05:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Look... half the people I talk to don't even (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dixie Liberal

      understand the term "single payer".  They have no idea what that means.

      We deal with this every day.

      The public is LOST in arguments, numbers, terms, etc.

      Really.  They are LOST.

      866-338-1015 toll-free to Congress in D.C. USE it!

      by cany on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:35:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I dont Axelrod or Emanuel are to blame (0+ / 0-)

      the uncertainty is because there  are five different committees in Congress working on the bill, and there is all this debate about a public option vs. co-ops, and if there is a public option, how is it designed, and then how do you pay for it? And I think all of that is causing confusion.

  •  I have a fantasy that this is Rahm and Obama (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Corneliusmingus, OnlyWords

    Playing a very clever game of 3-D chicken to get us to a real public option.

    •  3-D chess or "chicken" doesn't require... (5+ / 0-)

      ...this much effort. Obama's been busting his ass campaigning for something the public are overwhelmingly behind, specifically 76% for the public option.

      Honestly, if it wasn't for the Blue Dogs, Harry Reid and the corporate media, Obama could easily have taken an early vacation with Michelle and the kids and let Pelosi and Durbin/Schumer hammer this thing out. Yet, we've got Mike friggin' Enzi demanding he gets everything he wants from Baucus.

      I sincerely hope Max Baucus and Kent Conrad are the most corrupt politicians in America, because if they're not, they are quite possibly the dumbest motherfuckers on the planet.

      Everything the Man of Steele touches turns to Kryptonite.

      by PorridgeGun on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:06:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's a fantasy all right (0+ / 0-)

      I think they are all keystone cops.

      They don't win until we give up.

      by irmaly on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:50:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Scheduling notice: (6+ / 0-)

    House Mark up on HR3200 continues, and will continue after break.

    Go (CSPAN3) to view.

    They left to vote, so should be returning soon.

    There will be a NEW Child 2 Live Blog up when they begin again.  Please let everyone know:)


    Now returning you to your original programming.


    866-338-1015 toll-free to Congress in D.C. USE it!

    by cany on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 02:56:46 PM PDT

    •  They are still on break at this time, which is (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      3:45PM PST, 6:45ET..

      If you are watching CSPan 3 right now, you are seeing re-runs from part one, this morning.

      Hang in there... we're getting back there soon, I am hoping about 7:00PM PST.

      (I have enjoyed the breaks... cleaned the house:)

      866-338-1015 toll-free to Congress in D.C. USE it!

      by cany on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:38:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  No only 49% call it a serious threat (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    steve04, Ice Blue

      4.  76% think health care costs pose a serious threat to the nation's economy.

    27% said was "somewhat of a threat" and the trend is down. The insurance companies' propaganda is having an effect.

    •  Of course it's having some impact (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      All the more reason to push back during this coming recess.

      I feel good about going to war with "only" 49% on that tab. The GOP cannot demonstrate how they can control costs in the out-years other than their usual "Private Sector is more efficient" bullshit.

      One important key here is to forcefully underscore the current impact on Small Business and the potential costs savings for them with our proposals. The Chamber of Commerce has hidden behind the skirts of Small Business, but they've been playing them for suckers, especially on Health Insurance.

      It's OUR turn to exploit this particular wedge issue.

      Single Payer and WPA 2.0...NOW!!!

      by Egalitare on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:23:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Only (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    The only people surprised by this are people who only look at dead-tree media.

  •  What we want (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SallyCat, sherlyle, ArtSchmart, m00finsan

    and what the big money wants, are at odds. We have to make them care more about us than about campaign contributions.

    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference.

    by blue aardvark on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 02:58:42 PM PDT

  •  There is no medicare style option for all Amer- (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Anthony Segredo, Andiamo


    That would be single payer.

    The public option in the House bill would only cover less than 10 million, who didn't have jobs or couldn't afford to buy a defective insurance policy on their own.

    Even the Hacker version---129 million of us---fails to do anything remotely like the reform needed.

    Only single payer is reform.

    "I happen to be a proponent of a single payer health care program." Pres. Goldman Sachs Obama, 6/30/03

    by formernadervoter on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 02:58:57 PM PDT

  •  Nonsense - you're just trying to confuse me (5+ / 0-)

    and my tiny brain.

    It's a disaster Ras and Fux Nuisance told me so -

    la, la, la, la, la, la ...

  •  u have got to be kidding..all the polls r wrong? (0+ / 0-)
  •  Oh, BaucuCon understands very well. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geenius at Wrok, sherlyle

    It just has another agenda.  And other masters than the citizenry.

  •  make sure people see Bill Moyer's interview (10+ / 0-)

    with the CIGNA executive.  The more we expose the way our insurance industry operates, the better chance we have of changing the way it is today.


    it is truly a sad indictment of what we have come to...

  •  Voice of the PEOPLE still count in a Democracy??? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geenius at Wrok, mdmslle

    I guess we'll find out.  I know the outcome I'm hopeful to see.

    I think that Republicanism is revealing itself as a personality disorder, not so much an ideology." -- Naomi Klein

    by AllanTBG on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:00:06 PM PDT

  •  NYT polls suck and are manipulated...all the (0+ / 0-)

    other polls can't be wrong..

  •  why does ANY American still believe GOP? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sherlyle, m00finsan, Wom Bat

    that party and the media whores on which they rely for their propaganda have been wrong, wrong, wrong on every issue for eight years.......they led Americans to give Bush the benefit of the doubt when doing so led to the ruin of our economy, an unnecessary war and the violation of our laws....what makes anyone think they are worth listening to when it comes to health care reform?

    simplicity is the most difficult of all things

    by RichardWoodcockII on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:01:36 PM PDT

    •  That is what I wonder as well. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sherlyle, ItsSimpleSimon, m00finsan

      They just got done ruining the country and we still have to listen to their opinion.  We still hear about the sixties (for whatever reason)they should still hear about the last 8 years.

      "There are no more battleground states. Just battle won or battle winning!" Me

      by givemhellHarryR on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:05:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Really good question! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      "How many times are you going to fall for this"??  That's what I'd love to yell at quite a few out there.  
      After everything they've seen for themselves, all you gotta do is reach back there and punch that button marked "guns" or "abortion" or "national security" and they go off like Old Faithful.
      Isn't it high time to quit being fooled and fooled again?

    •  30 years of "government is the problem," (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      repeated endlessly by Republicans and the dishonest MSM, who together are the actual problem.

      When an old man dies, a library burns down. --African proverb

      by Wom Bat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:41:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What matters now, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sherlyle, Amayi

    What is in the bill and how the vote turns out. I could give a rats ass about a "moral victory".

    That's America, buddy! So wake up -- to your only logical choice: Me. George Tirebiter

    by irate on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:01:50 PM PDT

  •  So the real news is one thing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geenius at Wrok

    but the media reports something else.

    Hmmmmm... sounds frighteningly familiar.

    If cats could blog.... they wouldn't.

    by crystal eyes on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:02:29 PM PDT

  •  Poll had very low (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    WillR, Jon Says

    sample of Republicans and McCain voters, even lower than in the general population:

    Did you vote in the 2008 presidential election, did something prevent you from voting, or did you choose not to vote? IF VOTED, ASK: Did you vote for Barack Obama, John McCain, or someone else?

    Obama: 40%
    McCain: 27%
    Someone else: 4%
    Voted, won't say whom (vol.): 3%
    Didn't vote: 26%
    DK/NA: 1%

    Generally speaking, do you usually consider yourself a Republican, a Democrat, an Independent, or what?

    Republican: 20%
    Democratic: 34%
    Independent: 39%

  •  They don't have to win the PUBLIC debate (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irmaly, sherlyle, Jimdotz
    Just the Congressional debate. Sadly.
  •  Anyone understand what this means: (0+ / 0-)


    ...and what, if anything, it means to the analysis?

    "Certainly the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you; if you don't bet, you can't win." Lazarus Long

    by rfall on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:05:25 PM PDT

    •  People's answers might be influenced (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OnlyWords, rfall, m00finsan

      by the order in which they hear those questions. Thus, to maintain balance, the pollster randomly switches them around.

      "The great lie of democracy, its essential paradox, is that democracy is first to be sacrificed when its security is at risk." --Ian McDonald

      by Geenius at Wrok on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:07:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But, presumably, the tallied results shown (0+ / 0-)

        ...reflect the proper "unscrambling" of this random exchange?

        It makes sense, but sometimes stupid mistakes in data collection makes the results meaningless, so I just wanted to check.

        "Certainly the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you; if you don't bet, you can't win." Lazarus Long

        by rfall on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:09:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Correct... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OnlyWords, m00finsan

          my job requires a fair degree of this sort of stuff.  Almost all the tabulations now are electronic and set up with spreadsheets and specialized software.  In fact, those taking the phone survey are probably punching answers into a computer as they take it, and the computer then crunches the numbers.

  •  It is a good thing that you didn't watch Chris (7+ / 0-)

    Matthews before you wrote this. He has just been bemoaning the fact that the Pres has lost the message. He has fumbled and cannot explain what he wants, according to Chris. I am beginning to think that cable news is the worst thing that could have happened to this country.

    Max Ehrmann (author of Desiderata): Whatever else you do or forbear, impose upon yourself the task of happiness; and now and then abandon yourself to laughter.

    by JoanMar on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:05:30 PM PDT

  •  I want health care, dammit. (10+ / 0-)

    I'm 64, really fit, with minor health issues.

    But I want to pay for my health care and yours.

    I really do.  Under a fair system.

  •  NPR (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sherlyle, jgtidd, m00finsan

    reporting the conservative spin, with mara liarson citing recent NPR poll numbers as proof. the fix is in?

  •  Man, you can't go anywhere without (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    askew, sherlyle, OnlyWords

    reading some smart-ass article about how Obama and his health care are sinking. I'm not much for conspiracies, but it feels like a coordinated effort to kill them both.

    "He wanted to know if i can get the press off his lawn. I told him that i can't get the press off MY lawn" - Barack Obama.

    by blackwaterdog on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:09:05 PM PDT

    •  For example, here's the headline from the NYTimes (0+ / 0-)

      New Poll Finds Growing Unease on Health Plan

      so, you think the ultra-rich white men who own/run the MSM want to kill both hc and obama? why in the world would they ever want to do that?

      Will the REAL Barack Obama please STAND UP!

      by OnlyWords on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:27:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If you're right, I guess a public option (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geenius at Wrok, blackjackal

    is assured.

    So let's review:

    Americans trust Obama over congressional GOPers on health care by a 55%-26% margin.

    72% think Congress is moving either too slowly or at the right pace.

    59% think Obama is moving either too slowly or at the right pace.

    76% think health care costs pose a serious threat to the nation's economy.

    66% support a Medicare-style public option for all Americans.

    Yet the Republicans are winning. The Blue Dogs are able to get rid of the public auction. Did I miss something?

    Could it be that what the public wants means less than what politicians' contributors want?

    Maybe you should show us the numbers of what various lobbyists want, so we can get a better understanding of reality. The numbers you quote might as well be from Never Never Land. We don't count in this debate.

    A little less Hawaii and a little more Chicago, Mr. President.

    by CheeseMoose on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:09:26 PM PDT

  •  GOP response (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    yeah so............

    Dear GOP&Conservatives If all you have to offer are Cliches and Hyperbole then STFU. Thanks XOXOXO

    by JML9999 on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:09:57 PM PDT

  •  Again... Baucus is irrelevant. (8+ / 0-)

    Nothing he produces will make it past the reconciliation process... ever.

    Baucus' job is to take money from anti-reform lobbyists to make them look good for their anti-reform clients, so that there is a relief valve for that sentiment. And Baucus is doing a brilliant job of it.

    Baucus is also doing a brilliant job of firing up us progressives. Don't you agree?

    Finally, this will all be resolved in reconciliation by 10/15 and the House Progressive Caucus has got that locked up solid.

    Health Care Reform with a robust public option will pass, and every Dem will get re-elected, and then some.

    It's not time to become complacent, but please, it's time to take a little breath.

    What legacy do you want to leave?

    by Jimdotz on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:11:40 PM PDT

  •  Somebody should staple (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dkosdan, m00finsan

    a copy of that poll to Max Baucus's head, with relevant sections circled in red ink.

  •  We... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dkosdan, Jed Lewison

    really need to see these questions asked in a poll  broken down state by state. If the opposition is clustered disproportionately in some states (as I suspect it is), it explains the actions of Baucus and Conrad, who, like all Senators, answer to their own State's residents only.

  •  Sen. Rockefeller on the Ed show just now (7+ / 0-)

    saying "the tide is turning against co-ops in the Finance Committee" and that this is good news for getting a public plan as part of the final bill.

    "I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me do it." - Franklin D. Roosevelt

    by jrooth on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:16:19 PM PDT

  •  To the Repubicans it isn't about the polls, it is (5+ / 0-)

    about the cash...just like it not being about the votes but who is declared winner!  We need to keep making those calls and stay on the issue!

    "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever." -- Clarence Darrow

    by Bluedoc on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:17:53 PM PDT

  •  And the frenzy whipped in the media (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sherlyle, Wildthumb, OnlyWords, m00finsan

    Contra all the spin we've been hearing from BaucuCon and the GOP about health care,

    over how Obama and the Democrats are losing the debate on HCR.  

  •  The progressives (5+ / 0-)

    can stop the lies of the GOP in its' tracks and win the debate if they take the gloves off for once. When you have the facts on your side it is much easier to get people on your side. The GOP is a discredited party that should be put to sleep once and for all.

    •  Why aren't progressives on talk shows (0+ / 0-)

      pointing out the soaring profits of insurance companies?  Feels like nobody's really out there battling back the bullshit rightwing talking points.  Ed Schultz is trying his best, but he doesn't have a big enough audience to truly influence anything.
      Good to see progressive congresspeople on C-Span today, but it was only on C-Span.

    •  The left doesn't know how to use and implement (0+ / 0-)

      effective PR. The left doesn't know how to create strong messaging that resonates with most people. The left doesn't have a unifying message.

  •  OK, well, if the Republlicans are losing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    why aren't the Democrats winning? Are they all Blue Dogs or what?  I'd pop popcorn and watch to see how the Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. But we're talking life and death here so there's little scope for levity.

    •  until there is something to vote on (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PaintyKat, WillR

      we don't know exactly what we are fighting for. After the house bill gets out of committee tonight -- we'll at least have a framework from which to talk. The discussion lacks structure, because of so many committees and amendments, blah, blah, blah.

  •  There is ONE clear thing in that poll: Americans (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    are extremely worried about the economy. 82% think that the economy is fairly bad/bad. 67% thinks that the economy is not getting better/staying the same, and 58% think that the recession will last at least between 1 and 2 years.

    These are very large numbers. The vast majority of Americans are seriously anxious. They can waist a bit, but you know how fickle public opinion is. By next year, if they don't see some progress, they will start assigning blame and punishing MCs. You don't to be there when they start dispensing the punishment.

    Don't give a damn a/t each & every politician currently alive in the US. Last time i voted for the top part of the ballot was 1972. Never missed SB election

    by Mutual Assured Destruction on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:26:39 PM PDT

  •  Some of us have lately been succumbing to our (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pundit, sherlyle, Floande

    own despair about getting anything done. What we need is contradictions to our despair like this. Also,
    we can ACT against our despair by making our phone calls and staying in touch with others who might keep us energized. Go, Kossacks!

  •  That's why Cons are delaying the vote (0+ / 0-)

    Con Repubs and Dems are obstructing the vote because they hope to further turn the numbers in the 5th graph above.

    The crooks are leaving have left office, unprosecuted and scot-free.

    by BentLiberal on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:31:49 PM PDT

  •  Those who have insurance (like me) are (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    "one pink slip away" from losing it.  And when you do lose it, personal bankruptcy could be just around the corner.  Best health care system in the world?  Meh.

    This point needs to be hammered, and often.

    The most violent element in society is ignorance.

    by Mr MadAsHell on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:39:29 PM PDT

    •  I am 'satisfied' with my healthcare too (0+ / 0-)

      I'm in the same boat. If you asked me whether I am satisfied with my 'current' health plan- I'll tell you yes. (Mostly because I have'nt had any health issues in the last 3-4 years). But am I satisfied with the knowledge that if I lose my job my family will be without healthcare? HELL NO!

  •  What I always need (0+ / 0-)

    to bear in mind with republicans is the fact that it's spin-it's alway just based on spin! Shoulda known!

    "The all-white American Media-where the REAL questions of guilt or innocence are decided."

    by lyvwyr101 on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:40:24 PM PDT

  •  I am not letting up on health care... (0+ / 0-)

    ...until the ink dries from Obama's signature on the bill.
    It is going to be a long August.

    How much will the private insurance companies lose in this effort to stop reform?

    Raymond Gellner - Liberal Examiner at

    by regellner on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:41:24 PM PDT

  •  Unfortunately... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Winning the health care debate with the public doesn't translate to winning the health care debate.  The way congress votes is miles away from the way the public votes.

  •  Medicare for all- let's just do that then! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Looks like there is SOLID support for Medicare for all. Let's just expand Medicare to cover everyone. It's tragic that so many americans claim to hate socialized medicine; and yet everyone and their mothre loves Medicare. DOH!

  •  ACK Help! Urgent! (0+ / 0-)

    I forgot about the one diary/day.

    Can someone please quickly put up a live blog diaryt for the Mark up of HR3200?

    The Committee is back in session.

    866-338-1015 toll-free to Congress in D.C. USE it!

    by cany on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:45:04 PM PDT

  •  how many of those talking heads have loads (0+ / 0-)

    of dough invested in insurance companies?  i'd be LOADS.

  •  Methinks the monkeys doth protest too much. (0+ / 0-)
  •  FWIW, I called Sen. Kohl's DC office today (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    because his site didn't give his position on this matter one way or the other.

    I told his aide that while I wished the government could take over the whole deal, I realize that was unrealistic, but I was in favor of a public option.  I told her why--that I was left uninsurable way back in '85 due to a freak stroke and couldn't get a decent job, anywhere, because of it.  I said that was why I hate those money-sucking health insurance pigs with a livid passion...and I'm not alone.  (Note--I kept in mind I was speaking with a US Senator's office, so I toned down what I really wanted to say about them.)  I asked her to please tell Sen. Kohl to vote for something with a public option or I will be VERY angry.  Then I sweetly thanked her for letting me vent.

    Before I hung up, I told Kohl's aide I was currently on Wisconsin's version of Medicaid, and I loved it.  She seemed to genuinely appreciate hearing from someone who was happy with something.

    A jackass can kick down a barn but it takes a carpenter to build one.--Sam Rayburn (D-TX)

    by Ice Blue on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 04:01:15 PM PDT

  •  The Republiclones... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PaintyKat, daMamma

    The Republicicones move in mass
    They open their mouths to show their ass,
    They turn their heads and you can see
    the Voldemorts grinning at you and me!

    Give them money and they will say
    whatever you wish as long as you pay.
    They see no difference between truth and lies
    It shows on their faces and in their eyes!

    Posturing, posing like a collective snake
    they slither and blather while on the take.
    They promise "tax cuts" and "freedom" too,
    while never saying they mean "them"...not YOU!

    "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever." -- Clarence Darrow

    by Bluedoc on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 04:40:38 PM PDT

  •  Good news for John McCain /nt (0+ / 0-)

    The land was ours before we were the land's...Robert Frost, The Gift Outright

    by HylasBrook on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 04:54:28 PM PDT

  •  Do pronounce BaucuCon like you do (0+ / 0-)

    Chaka Kahn? "Bau-cu-con"

  •  The polling number say one thing but (0+ / 0-)

    the bill keeps on being weakened and watered down. Frankly at this point I would rather have them pass nothing if it means having an MA-style health system.

  •  Oprah shd do a show on health care (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    She should interview health insurance woes of common americans.

    She should also show visually what Canadians and French go through when they go to a doctor or hospital

    DONATE! McCain=Bush 3rd Term--US worst nightmare; Stop Republican obstructionism- Elect a Democratic Majority.

    by timber on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 05:12:46 PM PDT

  •  when was it that we gave up (0+ / 0-)

    all our representation by our Representatives and Senators?  When was it exactly that that we gave that right to Corporations and Mult-nationals, special interest groups, banks and Wall Street?  How did we get to the place where the people we elect are beholding to the wants, needs and desires of companies rather than the people?

    The Canadian system is above us where companies and lobby groups are not allowed to donate money to the parties or candidates.  There should be no donations to those running for or already in office except by the people themselves.  They are voted for by us, they are supposed to be working for us.  Sadly they are not working for us.  Obviously we are suffering from delusions if we believe for a moment otherwise.  

    I want a single payer system.  I want one that is not watered down, but to have the same high quality as what our elected officials enjoy and take for granted.  It is high time, We The People, were represented, respected and considered every single day of the year.  Not just paid lip service to.

    It is also time that all representatives and congressmen told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to us.  We The People.  The lies and deliberate misrepresentation of every single topic has gone beyond sickening.  While we are on the subject of truth telling, it would be awful nice if journalist would start acting like journalists again instead of commentators of opinions.  Real news, just the facts please.  Some of us can think and will form our own opinions.  If I want entertainment TV with no attention to facts or logic, I'll tune to Fox.

    I'm tired of the BS and I'm ticked off.  I am not alone.

  •  Press conf. today (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I listened to Mr. Gibbs get eaten up by a reporter talking about WSJ poll.

    Nobody mentioned this poll.  I think Gibbs should have such counter information when he is in there.  

    If the press is there, and they are all copying in their notebooks that a poll is bad, and they do not get any counter-factual material, then they spread the results of the one poll mentioned even farther.

    The NYT Poll is what I think is true.  I am glad it is picked up in your excellent column.

  •  AmericansWantChange! - DemsCan'tBelieveIt! (0+ / 0-)

    One of the biggest puzzles in American politics is how Republicans can ram through major legislative changes to the process and substance of our American democracy with very little to no support from the polls, yet Democrats, who have surprisingly strong support for major change in health care - Won't Believe It! And operate like they'll be punished for giving Americans what they want!

    Some may say the answer can be found in a psychological study of the minds of Democratic politicians.  My gut tells me the answer lies in deficiencies far to the south of these Democratic politicians' minds.

  •  The GOP lost a big battle when Pelosi got the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PaintyKat, daMamma

    blue dogs to break without really having to make any real concessions to the House health care bill.  If folks like Ross and Pomeroy are willing to vote for the bill, then that support among conservative Democrats will go a long way to defeating the scare tactics of the GOP.

    As for the Senate, Baucus is losing leverage by the day and it is likely that the HELP bill will emerge as the Senate bill relatively unscathed.  The break is going to help Obama and the Democrats because the GOP and industry have taken their best shot and the bill still remains on track.  Rather than back-tracking, Obama seems to be intensifying his efforts even as poll numbers start to drop somewhat, which is beginning to convince people that he is willing to take risks to win this legislative battle.  That fighting spirit breeds confidence.

    Alternative rock with something to say:

    by khyber900 on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 06:08:24 PM PDT

    •  And as far as polls, Obama's people have their (0+ / 0-)

      own polls.  They don't bother with the NYT, Wall Street Journal, or any other that may say Obama's numbers are going down.  And this is true for Congress as well.

      So a lot of the hand wringing here is so unnecessary.  Obama and the Congress have a lot better information to base their decisions on than that available for discussion here.

      I expect we will still win strongly on the Health care reform.


      WWYTR? tikkyn olam - repairing the world.

      by PaintyKat on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 07:11:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Lies, damn lies, and statistics (0+ / 0-)

    Too often the media portrays disatisfaction with Obama or with Democrats as coming from their right, when its people to their left who support their agenda and feel their not pushing it effectively, or who believe it's not progressive enough.

    Yesterday, on Fox I heard an analysis of a survey about Obama's handling of the economy. It was something like:

    44 percent: it's improving
    14 percent: it's the same
    38 percent: its' getting worse

    So Fox says: "A clear majority think the economy is not improving."

  •  MSM Math 72<28 (0+ / 0-)

    Up next, are video games programming children to be future sleeper cell terrorists? We'll have the report after these messages...

    Krusty the Klown Brand Irate Emoticons (tm) So You Can Express the Hate You Didn't Know You Had!

    by brentbent on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 07:28:53 PM PDT

  •  I have some quibbles (0+ / 0-)

    and concerns about how things are going, but the default position in the media and on some blogs is "the sky is falling" on pretty much anything. Not to mention, for most people, context is sorely lacking. This is the most ambitious health care reform undertaking that anyone has taken since LBJ.

  •  Thank You (0+ / 0-)

    I am once again grateful for the analysis done by new media but left out by MSM.  They focused on Obama popularity to talk about health care reform, when health care reform was in the survey.

    Is this dishonest?  It is lazy and arrogant.

  •  Polls, schmoles (0+ / 0-)

    I say that most Kossacks pay far too much attention to polls. Of course they can be manipulated and then there are guys like Rasmussen who create their own distorted indices- in fact, if we go back to the first public relations men, Edward Bernays and Ivy Lee, they were manipulating opinion by choosing the words and sequence of questions in their polls carefully.

    Those who made the American Revolution were definitely a minority, a minority who put their lives and property on the line. It wasn’t poor folk who dumped that tea into Boston Harbor. It's how much you care and how much hell you raise. If polls were honest, each party wouldn't need its own pollsters, all seventy of them. Polls are constantly being manipulated - the deceptive Rasmussen poll is only the latest in a long line that goes back to the early 1900s.

    There is no tooth fairy, there is no Santa Claus and no god that answers your prayers. If you don’t fight, you are squashed. Repubs have an advantage because if there is no change, they continue to avoid paying their share of taxes and as long as they can spread fear and doubt, people aren’t sure that they want this particular change. Don’t tell me that the Democrats have 60 votes in the senate- Baucus, Nelson, Lieberman, those guys are not Democrats. We can whine, we can take polls or we can raise hell.

  •  I guess they are punch drunk..nt (0+ / 0-)
  •  Almost done (0+ / 0-)

    My family and friends have given to the Democratic party for decades. We have stomped door to door for them. We have paid to attend dinners for them.

    All of us watched my uncle die from lack of health care and hundreds of thousands in bills because he was dumped from his policy two decades ago.

    If the Democrats do not pass a public option health care bill this year, we are done with politics. The banks got their bail out. Car companies were given their money. But, average Americans are allowed to die without life-saving drugs. Excuse my French, but F' the crap.

    That's around thirty votes and ATM machines for your elections that you're losing. Because we are fed up with all of it. My vote doesn't matter.

  •  POLES SMOLES (0+ / 0-)


  •  you are misreading part of the polls (0+ / 0-)

    66% want universal access to a public option, but far fewer actually want to be on the public option.

    Americans want the system to be reformed not blown up.

    I like my insurance.

    I love the quality of care I get. If one of my doctors does not treat me right, I drop them and get a new one.

    I love that I have mental health, dental and eye coverage. I love that I have a low copay at several local urgent care facilities. I have a big family and  use these services often.

    I also like that my insurance is well received by the doctors in my area. At least two of my family's doctors are not accepting medicare patents. And I know that my dentist makes people on other plans pay before treatment. They know that mine pays promptly.

    Right now the President is walking a nice balance between covering the uncovered and leaving the covered alone. We should support him.  If we all work together, we can get a public option for those who want it.

    However, if the goal is to take away my insurance and force me into a single payer system, count me out. In fact, count me as a vocal and determined opponent.

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