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Michelle Bachmann:

Bachmann repeated the myth, adopted early by Sarah Palin, that the health-care plans being debated in Congress would set up "death panels" to determine which old folks are entitled to health care. "Thank God that Sarah Palin said that," she told the callers. "These are true."....

She also suggested that it might be some kind of religious destiny that hardy souls such as herself are in Congress at this time.

"We all need to consider that in God’s timing that he may have allowed us, as members of Congress, to be in the position that we’re in just for this specific issue right now," she said. "Everything that all of us have worked together and labored for over the years, all of it could be undermined with this one bill. President Obama realizes that. The radicals that are on the pro-abortion left, they realize that. They could win it all. And the unborn, and the vulnerable, the disabled and those at the end of life could lose it it all."

But it was Bachmann’s fervent call to utilize prayer and fasting to beat back health-care reform efforts that was the true highlight of the call.

"That’s really where this battle will be won — on our knees in prayer and fasting," she told the listeners. "Remember: faith without works is dead. So we’re asking you to do all of it: pray, fast, believe, trust the Lord, but also act."

Tom Coburn:

Yesterday CNN’s Rick Sanchez aired a segment from a health care town hall where a weeping constituent explained to Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK) that her husband’s health insurer refuses to cover his treatment for a traumatic brain injury. As the woman continued to cry, Coburn told her that his office would try to assist her individually. But, he added, "the idea that the government is the solution to our problems is an inaccurate, a very inaccurate statement."

Chuck Grassley:

[T]he ranking member on the Senate Finance Committee and member of the "Gang of Six" tasked with producing bipartisan health care legislation — "vowed not to vote for an ‘imperfect’" health care bill:

"Now is the time to do this right or not do it." ... "We need to slow down and do a little less," Mr. Grassley told another town-hall gathering in Pocahontas, Iowa, Monday afternoon. "We need to fix what’s broken and leave alone what’s working well." In an interview, he vowed not to vote for an "imperfect bill" that includes a public option or gives the government too much control over end-of-life issues.

In March, Grassley characterized himself as an honest negotiator, telling the Kaiser Family Foundation that "everything is on the table. ... You don’t negotiate when everything is not on the table...everything’s got to be on the table if you’re negotiating in good faith."

Grassley is hiding behind Steele, Bachmann, Coburn and the rest--i.e., the Republican base. And yet, as of August 19, this was what we were getting from the White House:

White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said today that Democrats are "absolutely not" giving up on a bipartisan effort.

"There are several more weeks to go in potential negotiations between Republicans and Democrats," Gibbs said. "I don't know why we would short-circuit any of that now."

It's not too late for Obama not to get punked by Grassley et al. on this. Give up this pretense that there can actually be a bipartisan reform bill that accomplishes anything of value, and help Reid and Schumer go it alone.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:40 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Based on the title of this post... (14+ / 0-)

    I expected a blank space to follow.

    "Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one." - Friedrich Nietzsche

    by ActivatedbyBush on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:42:00 PM PDT

  •  Just say it already Mr Coburn.. (7+ / 0-)

    Say that you only want health care for those that can afford it. Get it over with instead of beating around the bush.

  •  Fuck bipartisanship, and fuck Republicans. (18+ / 0-)

    Once they've shown they can behave like actual human beings and stop lying about everything, they can come back to the table. For now, pat them on the heads and tell them to go out and play, the adults are working.

    They tortured people to get false confessions to fraudulently justify our invading Iraq.

    by Ponder Stibbons on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:43:09 PM PDT

    •  Do you really think that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      askew, Go Kid Hugo

      Robert Gibbs is going to say from the podium, "Well.  Screw Bipartisanship.  The Republicans clearly suck.  We're going at it alone."

      Not gonna happen, and I wouldn't hold your breath.

      •  He doesn't have to say it (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        moosely2006, gph11

        and neither does Obama -- that's up to the leadership in the House and Senate.

        Pelosi has already said as much, by saying they're not going to pass a bill without a public option. Where's Reid on this? And would the Senate ConservaDems really dare to go against their President on this, especially the ones from the states where Obama won in 2008? (I'm looking at you, Evan Bayh.)

        Civility is the way of telling someone to go fuck themselves in such a way that the someone agrees it probably is a good idea.

        by Cali Scribe on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:12:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I respectfully disagree (0+ / 0-)

          I don't think that the leadership has been THAT effective at conveying the following message:

          "Screw the Republicans.  We're doing it alone"

          Pelosi saying that they're gonna pass it only with the P.O. is understood as such for us politicos, but not for the general public.

  •  I had visual freudian slip (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kitebro, Skid, nonnie9999, Matt Z

    member of the "Gang of Six"

    I read this as the Gang of Shit

    Religion gives men the strength to do what should not be done.

    by bobtmn on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:43:12 PM PDT

  •  A lot of wingnuts are making a constitutional (8+ / 0-)

    argument against health care reform, claiming that the government doesn't have the constitutional right to do it. Which, of course, is rediculous (um, buh bye Air Force, Medicare and National Parks?). But are any of them even attempting to make what passes for a coherent (if still rediculous) constitutional argument against reform?

    "Those who stand for nothing fall for anything." - Alexander Hamilton

    by kovie on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:43:47 PM PDT

    •  Shit, these people would have been against (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      moosely2006, Matt Z

      mandatory school attendance, back in the day.
      "How dare the government insist  my child goes to school to get a basic education.  If I want to keep them dumb as a post, that's my right!"

      For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbours, and laugh at them in our turn?'' ...

      by QuaintIrene on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:11:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What bugs me (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        moosely2006, Matt Z

        is that they keep referring to "rights" that don't exist and aren't even hinted at in the constitution and cannot be reasonably inferred from it, while at the same time denying that the government has powers that are clearly granted or implied in it, and in no way forbidden. There is no "right" to not pay taxes or deny your kids a proper education. And the government absolutely has the power to tax people and build schools and force people to send their kids to them or otherwise educate them.

        No country would be tenable otherwise. Only a fool would disagree.

        "Those who stand for nothing fall for anything." - Alexander Hamilton

        by kovie on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:20:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Move to rich neighborhood, better yet, where ther (5+ / 0-)

    are more surgeons...

    Democrats keep the US from becoming Third World. :)

    by The Simple Canadian on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:43:56 PM PDT

  •  apparently govt is the solution (10+ / 0-)

    to the problem of Coburn's health coverage, not to mention income

  •  First half of Grassley's comment is correct... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nonnie9999

    the 2nd part, not so much:

    "Now is the time to do this right or not do it." ... "We need to slow down and do a little less,"

    FULL SPEED AHEAD!

    We can do this without the Party of NO!

    The best way to save the planet is to keep laughing!

    by LaughingPlanet on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:44:46 PM PDT

  •  Don't you long for the era (12+ / 0-)

    when those suffering from schizophrenia were confined to asylums to be treated instead of being elected to Congress?

    Iuris praecepta sunt haec: Honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere. - Ulpian, Digestae 1, 3

    by Dauphin on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:46:08 PM PDT

  •  Here's where I stand (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Anthony Segredo, mango

    I will not accept anything less than a public option.  Without a public option, the other improvements will only mean that insurance will cost more for people with pre-existing conditions- for instance.  

    That said, it is the duty of the leader of the Dems in the legislature to be saying that they will go it alone.  That person is in charge of the party's response and demeanor.  The President should still be saying that we want to continue in a bipartisan fashion.  

    I have no problem with Obama continuing to say that bipartisan is the best way to go.  He can demonstrate the problems that Republicans are causing by continuing to say that we want a bipartisan effort while they make it clear that they are not trying to be part of the solution.    

    "I refute it thus."

    by otto on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:46:27 PM PDT

    •  Go ahead. Take it to the next step. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Anthony Segredo, otto

      Medicare for All Who Want It - Starting Right Away

      Solves it all. Covers the uninsured. Provides real competition to the insurance companies.

      We need two lists: those we will work to elect and those we will defeat. If you're not progressive, you're not a Democrat.

      by moosely2006 on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:41:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's what I want (0+ / 0-)

        What I will accept is different from what I want.

        I want my kid to get all A's, I will accept mostly A's.  

        Obviously, these are not comparable situations, but I do not always get what I want, so I have to understand that there is a lower level that is what I will accept.

        "I refute it thus."

        by otto on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 07:04:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Doesn't this shit count as fraud? (7+ / 0-)

    Doesn't proclaiming this false crap count as some sort of fraud perpetrated upon the public? Misuse of State Office to willfully perpetrate falsehoods upon the public? Can we possibly add the motive of financial gain and political power to those charges?

    Can this be done federally, or state by state, or county by county? If it did start happening state by state, wouldn't that wake people up?

    •  Probably not (0+ / 0-)

      I agree it's a fraud, but it falls under intelectual dishonesty, rather than actionable.

      Politicians interpret, and draw argument and conclusions. Often they are wrong, and do it despite knowing they are wrong, and being deliberately misleading.

      Barney Frank is often wrong, but he is incredibly honest (which makes him a good guy). Look at the criticism he draws, from both sides, more for his honesty than his views.

      We do not forgive our candidates their humanity, therefore we compel them to appear inhuman

      by twigg on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:48:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Haul Bachmann in front of the Ethics Committee (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      twigg

      She is telling a deliberate lie about a bill's contents. Lying to Congress is a crime. Lying by Congress...?

  •  Here we go again: (10+ / 0-)

    Obama is getting "punked" by NoNo.

    Just like Obama got "punked" by Hillary Clinton, and then went on to get "punked" by Ace McCain.

    See, Obama, according to this continuing meme, doesn't understand politics.

    Since he got himself "punked" into the White House, I wonder where he goes from here?

  •  Republicare is Deathcare. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Anthony Segredo, twigg, moosely2006

    Micheal Bachman is a deamon. I pray god smites her. She bears false witness and therfore shares no inheritance in the kingdom of heavon. As Jesus (if you believe in him) Said Liars shall not inheret the kingdom of god. And she is a liar. plain and simple.. burn baby burn! I praise god for his Justice.. she needs alot of it.  

    •  hella karma (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      moosely2006

      is what I'm thinking....but what do I know?  

      •  Karma doesn't quite work like that in the eastern (0+ / 0-)

        .... Buddhist sense... if you wish for something bad to happen to your enemies and it does, that's not karma, because you wished somebody ill will, and then it will come back onto you, so it's self destructive.

        People who are in Christian dominant societies confuse karma with something higher up in heaven making a judgement.  Karma is just watching the universe happen.

        Her (Bachman's)insatiable desires for power are going to make her miserable. She owns that karma.

        "Toads of Glory, slugs of joy... as he trotted down the path before a dragon ate him"-Alex Hall/ Stop McClintock

        by AmericanRiverCanyon on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 04:53:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Grassley......Is that the guy who imploded on (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nonnie9999

    national teevee last weekend?

  •  They're nuts (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    moosely2006, PaDemTerry

    Once again my computer is not powerful enough to visit Huffington Post.

    by plok on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:48:04 PM PDT

  •  Can I loathe.. (6+ / 0-)

    Republicans anymore than I do?

    Amazingly...yes.

    "I know up on top you are seeing great sights, but down on the bottom we, too, should have rights."--Dr. Seuss

    by PaDemTerry on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:48:13 PM PDT

  •  No more negotiating with ourselves. (9+ / 0-)

    That's the term where you put something on the table, and the other side says, "a little less, please", and you put in a little less, and the other side says, "can you cut that down some?", and you cut it down some, and they say "is that the best you can do?", and you realize that the other side has never said that it will ever accept ANYTHING you've offered, and that at best you knocked down your offering price without so much as a counteroffer ever being made.

    Here, all the repubs have to offer is agreement, but they've been really careful to avoid saying what they would ever agree to, ever ever ever.  So the sole coin they have to offer, they won't.

    So there's nothing to do but vote on the bill we like best because it will work best.

    "I'm specificallly allowed to call people names and I don't have to use profanity to do so because I have a vocabulary unlike some of the morans on this site."

    by Inland on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:48:24 PM PDT

  •  Hire this woman and her DH for an ad (4+ / 0-)

    show this clip, ID Coburn as a Republican, could be the new Harry and Louise.

  •  Still hard (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Skid

    to draw any other conclusion than the Whitehouse is happy with where things are re healthcare. wh ether we like it or not they are aiming for a Bluedog friendly outcome with a view to 2010. All the facts taken together can lead to no other conclusion.

  •  I don't think even the GOP (4+ / 0-)

    has sunk to the depth where Michelle Bachmann really speaks for them. So she's pretty irrelevant to this article, although mocking MB is a cottage industry here.

    But Obama needs to realize that political capital, like gunpowder, needs to be expended to have any utility. And if he looks, he can see the whites of their eyes - especially Boehner's, which have a nice contrast against the orange. Time to fire rhethoric at will.

    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference.

    by blue aardvark on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:49:43 PM PDT

  •  Cut to the chase. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wendy Slammo

    What's the deal?

    Forget labels.

    If I'm going to get fucked, I want to know up-front.

  •  The Coburn clip (5+ / 0-)

    raised my blood pressure to unsafe levels...maybe that was his intent....just an incredibly, heart-less asshole.

    "I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are." --Homer Simpson

    by dhshoops on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:50:02 PM PDT

  •  The GOP and their God's will thing... (4+ / 0-)

    God's will only seems to apply to their desired outcome.  It was supposedly God's will that McCain-Palin would win, and they didn't.  So does it make it God's will that Barack Obama won instead?  Not in GOPland.

  •  Obama WILL NOT get punked by Grassley (7+ / 0-)

    Come on people, you've seen this man for 2.5 years now. Is he really that stupid? Is he really such a sucker? Is he really weak? Is anyone really think that Obama doesn't want to pass a good bill? That he wasted his entire political capital and dragged his family through some seriously disgusting mud, just to give in to this Grassley snake?

    He might be just a little too in love with the post-partisanship idea, but he is far from being stupid. He knows exactly when someone is screwing him. Yes, he plays the game very differently than any other president before, but as someone who probably saw every Michal Jordan game ever - I guess for him it's about who makes the final shot. I'm sure that once he gets a bill out of that fucking committee, he'll ask for the ball in the forth quarter.

    "Where all Obama's people to help him with this now? He is like Michael Jordan on a VERY, VERY, VERY bad team". - Bill Maher.

    by blackwaterdog on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:51:34 PM PDT

    •  None of the above. (0+ / 0-)

      He's not stupid or weak, and I still believe he has the best of intentions. All those virtues do not immunize him against being brought down by a fixed idea, in this case, "bipartisanship". As Donna Edwards, among others, has pointed out, Medicare and most other liberal programs were not passed by bipartisanship, but by a Democratic majority exerting its will. The score is not yet in, so we'll see if Obama is really just playing the long game in preparation for a tremendous finish. That's what I've been believing, but sometimes it feels more and more like I'm kidding myself. We'll see.

      Everybody talkin' 'bout Heaven ain't goin' there -- Mahalia Jackson

      by DaveW on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:09:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My theory is that America had a stroke (11+ / 0-)

    and our Right side is totally braindead at this point.

  •  At the beginning of this (9+ / 0-)

    healthcare "debate" I was pretty neutral. But after seeing the hate and defense of the status quo from the Republicans I am now convinced that healthcare is a RIGHT.

    Once again my computer is not powerful enough to visit Huffington Post.

    by plok on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:52:28 PM PDT

  •  WWJD (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    moosely2006

    I think he would support health care based on New Testament text, wherein he heals people.

    •  You're not reading the right version (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      moosely2006, Matt Z

      In the Republican version, Lazarus is, like, totally rich and Jesus only brought him back from the dead because he paid him 60 pieces of silver (double what Judas got!).  All those other folks who stayed dead?  Guess they just couldn't pay as much as Lazarus.

  •  The Gopers are most afraid that (6+ / 0-)

    success on this will prove that government can do something for ordinary people. If we should get this passed with a public option, healthcare for all will soon be as sacrosanct as Social Security and will cement their rump party status. They are as afraid of that as they are willing to help their corporate masters.  

    It's not a campaign anymore, Mr. Obama.

    by huntergeo on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:54:39 PM PDT

  •  this just keeps getting more demoralizing.. (0+ / 0-)

    "Love the life you live. Live the life you love."- Bob Marley

    by sillycilla on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:54:50 PM PDT

  •  You don't know who you are dealing with !! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    moosely2006

    "Chance favors the prepared mind"

    by tlemon on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:55:04 PM PDT

  •  How pathetic is it... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    moosely2006, Go Kid Hugo

    ...the literal epicenter of all Republican health care talking points is Sarah Palin's Facebook entries.

    Our Republican politicans have turned a website meant for ditzy teenage girls into their health care war room nexus.

    Dear ignorant teabaggers: You want your America back? First, check with the original proprietors, the Native Americans.

    by wyvern on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:56:14 PM PDT

  •  vet called O ...Little Hitler (5+ / 0-)

    oh oh, vet says he'd take a gun to Washinton if others would join him.

    Matthews gets this.

  •  I hope that coburn clip gets more play.. (6+ / 0-)

    "Love the life you live. Live the life you love."- Bob Marley

    by sillycilla on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:57:16 PM PDT

  •  Tom Coburn is an evil, evil man. (5+ / 0-)

    Coburn is a physician, educated at great public expense to heal the sick and comfort the suffering.

    And this vile sack of crap—who has fabulous health coverage courtesy of the American taxpayers—has the gall to tell this sobbing victim of America's health care "system" that "government is not the solution".

    I truly wish I were religious, so I could contemplate Tom Coburn's twisted soul burning in hell.

  •  Tom Coburn has no honor. (9+ / 0-)

    Senator Tom Coburn is a man without honor. This woman comes begging to him in dire need of medical help from a corporate system that has absolutely no compassion, and what is his answer?

    Ask your neighbors for help.

    Oh, really? My neighbors will give me thousands of dollars for health care? My neighbors will act as doctors and surgeons?

    Tom Coburn then reinforced his dishonor by attempting to use this as a rhetorical pivot to reiterate his unwavering opposition to a government health care option. In the face of a desperate woman, he tells America, "Go fuck yourself" if you are in a position as dire as hers. Get your neighbors to cough up the money.

    Senator Tom Coburn is a man without honor.

    And then there were the people that applauded his crass and cold words. Who are these people? Is America the free and the brave truly inhabited by such callous curs? Are we so morally weak that we cannot extend the helping hand of our own government to the truly desperate, in our own fucking country?

    The only thing missing in that exchange was a Screamer to yell, "Boo hoo" at the distressed woman. That's your Republican party, America. Heartless, soulless creatures that crow about piety while drinking blood.

    Hokey Pokey: n. Boring, conservative sex to make more boring conservatives.

    by jimbo92107 on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:57:26 PM PDT

  •  Something to clean the poison (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Krush, huntergeo

    "Where all Obama's people to help him with this now? He is like Michael Jordan on a VERY, VERY, VERY bad team". - Bill Maher.

    by blackwaterdog on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 02:58:18 PM PDT

  •  Praying for the Health Insurance Companies (0+ / 0-)

    Nice....

    Don't argue with 'publicans... Don't reason with 'publicans.. Just dominate 'publicans.

    by dehrha02 on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:00:38 PM PDT

  •  In my heart of hearts, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    moosely2006, Matt Z

    I like to think that God has a sense of humor.  And She will toast Bachmann's sorry ass and have a big divine chuckle when Bachmann realizes that God wasn't really on her side.

    God sides with the meek and generous.  Not the arrogant and greedy.

    My dogs think triciawyse is smart and pretty.

    by martydd on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:00:56 PM PDT

  •  Senator Coburn to crying lady... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greenearth, moosely2006, Matt Z

    Sounds like you are shit out of luck.  Come by my office I think Maxine has some Kleenex.

  •  Grassley is not fit to lick Obama's boots. (6+ / 0-)

    He stood there today in a town hall meeting -- stood there, said nothing, when a WW II vet not only said Obama was acting like Hitler but that he wanted to take a gun to Washington, if "enough of you would go with me."  

    Charles Grassley stood there.  Said nothing.  Stood up for nothing.  

    It's over.  If Obama lets that bastard anywhere near any negotiations, he's a fool.  This is beyond anything a US Senator in the 21st century should allow.  

    AND WHERE ARE THE DEMOCRATS SCREAMING OUTRAGE.  

    WHERE ARE THEY?????

    •  Get a diary up (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      greenearth, moosely2006, Matt Z

      media is going to think it's nuts too...
      Tweety sure did, and Kornblut and Martin

      Don't bet against us!

      by Julie Gulden on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:07:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  By the time I figure out... (4+ / 0-)

        ....how to do the link and embed the video, someone more skilled than I will have a diary on this.  

        I keep thinking I can't be more shocked and then they shock me even more.  The wingnut is one thing -- but that leaders of the Republican Party see no need to say "enough" is the crux of the cancer.  

        I am 59 years old and Jewish.  I grew up with the stories of Hitler and Nazism and fascism.  It is what shaped the progressive movement of my generation, leading to anti-Vietnam war and the civil rights movement.  

        When every Republican stays silent, they are the Nazis.  When violence connects these loons to murder, Chuck Grassley holds the gun.  As does Michelle Bachmann, Michael Steele, Sarah Palin, John McCain, Coburn, Boehner, Kristol, Limbaugh, Beck and all of them.  But mostly our elected representatives, who cried outrage if we didn't genuflect to George W. Bush.  But it's okay to threaten the life of a man who won the election in a landslide.  

        If one more death occurs because of birthers and deathers, it is Charles Grassley wearing an SS uniform.  Every one of them has blood their miserable, selfish, greedy, lying hands.  

    •  wow! this is shameful (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Julie Gulden, moosely2006, Matt Z

      grassley is turning out to be even worse than mccain!  he should be publicly humiliated and fully discredited!

  •  What would Jesus do? (4+ / 0-)

    Heal everybody...for free.

    And feed the poor.

    Don't argue with 'publicans... Don't reason with 'publicans.. Just dominate 'publicans.

    by dehrha02 on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:01:34 PM PDT

  •  GOP: Let Me Show You (0+ / 0-)

    Our New Line of Bullshit

    Excuse me, sir, I couldn't help but notice you checking out our bullshit section over here. Now, most of the people that come in here don't know what they're looking for, but I see you and I say to myself, this guy, this is the kind of guy I can manipulate until he purchases something he doesn't need. So, tell me, what can I do to send you home with some of our bullshit?

    Let me establish a superficial intimacy here by asking you your first name. It's Bob? Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb here, Bob—you look like the kind of guy who appreciates quality bullshit. I have an eye for these things. I can see you're a nice guy, but dumb as hell, so I'm going to go ahead and take you for all you've got.

    Can I put my arm around you and be disingenuous with you for a second? I like you, so I'm going to help you out. Walk with me. I'm going to show you the real bullshit.

    Now, I know what you're thinking: "This guy must really think he's talking to a dummy here." And that's true. But I want you to know that it's simpletons like you who make this the greatest job in the world.

    This ain't no party. This ain't no disco. This ain't no foolin' around!

    by Snud on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:02:34 PM PDT

  •  Wish Iowans would quit voting.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    moosely2006, divedeeper

    ...for an imperfect senator.

    Last time we broke a president we got Reagan.

    by Bush Bites on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:02:48 PM PDT

    •  The Dems need to run someone against him, is all. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      moosely2006

      The local Gannett, which has been kissing Grassley's ass every other day throughout this, is traditionally fond of pointing out the value of seniority in choosing a Senator.  To unseat one has become very difficult these past three decades or so.

  •  Bachmann is a hypocrite in extremes. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dehrha02, moosely2006, zenox

    She wants to deny aid to others - in this case, helping the sick and the infirm - and to achieve that goal, she tells falsehoods, and then to top it off, she invokes God; specifically, the Christian God.

    Co-op is a cop out. It is not an option, let alone a public one.

    by JRandomPoster on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:03:16 PM PDT

  •  Go to hell, bunch of racists (9+ / 0-)

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    "Where all Obama's people to help him with this now? He is like Michael Jordan on a VERY, VERY, VERY bad team". - Bill Maher.

    by blackwaterdog on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:05:25 PM PDT

  •  Could someone please inform me how this moron, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    moosely2006

    Bachmann, I mean, ever got elected? Is this the kind of crap she campaigned on?
    Ooh, fasting must be popular with the wingnuts, cause isn't their contention that obesity is the only reason for high healthcare costs. Oh, the need for tort reform.
    Please, Michelle. I hope you do retreat into what ever make-shift altar you've built in your bed room closet for a month-long prayer-fest. So the grownups can get on and do the real work.

    For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbours, and laugh at them in our turn?'' ...

    by QuaintIrene on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:07:39 PM PDT

  •  I like that they're fasting. (4+ / 0-)
    I want them to be too lethargic to make it to any more town halls.

    Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.

    by NMDad on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:08:35 PM PDT

  •  An observation... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Julie Gulden, moosely2006

    ... on McCain's comment concerning the absence of Senator Kennedy during the health care debates (specifically, that Senator Kennedy's absence is holding health care back):  I think that he's being mocking, and that his comments are made to take hope away from those who want to see health care get through.

    Yes, I do have that low an opinion of McCain.

    Co-op is a cop out. It is not an option, let alone a public one.

    by JRandomPoster on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:09:01 PM PDT

  •  Hey Assley, Iowans voted for a very imperfect (0+ / 0-)

    senator. As I heard Iowa farmers say growing up:

    Shit or get off the pot.

    Bullshit is the glue that binds us as a nation. George Carlin

    by gereiztkind on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:14:23 PM PDT

  •  Bachman is asking for a Jihad (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    moosely2006, Matt Z

    "That’s really where this battle will be won — on our knees in prayer and fasting," she told the listeners. "Remember: faith without works is dead. So we’re asking you to do all of it: pray, fast, believe, trust the Lord, but also act."

    This woman is trying to provoke religious battle

  •  From Huffpo-Bingaman (5+ / 0-)

    A Democratic member of the "Gang of Six" senators charged with finding a bipartisan solution to health care reform said at a town hall Monday that he would support using the budget reconciliation process to push a bill through the Senate if necessary.

    Reconciliation is a parliamentary procedure that would allow Democrats to pass health care reform with 51 votes, meaning the party could do it without any Republican support.

    Sen. Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico has been one of three Democrats participating in the widely-watched Finance Committee negotiations. His willingness to consider reconciliation is another sign that a a genuine bipartisan deal may be impossible.

    Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

    by valadon on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:17:12 PM PDT

  •  What The Fuck. Michelle Bachmann needs to (0+ / 0-)

    have something happen to her.

    The future is what we decide it is going to be.

    by Ann T Bush on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:22:01 PM PDT

  •  riddle me this (0+ / 0-)

    A few simple questions; 1) Why do you progressives believe that you have the right to bypass the US constitution and impose legislation on the rest of the country when no such power has been granted to Congress? Along those lines, if you believe there is such a power please cite it along with influential pre-ratification delegates to either the federal convention or state convention that can affirm this. Do you also understand that just because you want something to be so, it is immoral and and an an assault through the coercive force of the federal government upon those who have not given their consent for such a radical extraconstitutional departure from a legal, limiting and binding compact in which power was granted only to legislateon matters external to the states for their benefits, thus General Welfare and neither local nor specific.
           2) Do you understand that the only true rights man has are those which are contained within himself, such as life, liberty and fruit of labor, that anything that another must provide for is not a right, but only something that can be gained either through voluntary exchange or voluntary gifting?  This goes back to the immorality in  that no one has the right to determine another's conscience, nor to take away from one other that in which that one has consented to for that in which he can truly be represented in. This is why no just government can legislate from afar for something local. It only enables an oligarchal form of government that is then influenced by specific interests to the exclusion or even deprivation of other's interests. We who choose to not be enslaved whether in fact or practice will not allow this. We can only ask that you stop considering the government as your god to provide for all the wants of life and correct all the wrongs.

    •  riddle me a civilized society (3+ / 0-)

      What say you?

      •  civilized (0+ / 0-)

        Is it civilized to dictate another's conscience, to steal from another under the guise of government, to blatantly toss aside the rule of law, to ignore the formalized legal agreement among the societies composing the US?

        •  The riddler in stealing from von mises and hayek (4+ / 0-)

          "has a splendid analytical mind and an admirable passion for liberty; but as a student of human nature he is worse than null and as a debater he is of Hyde Park standard."

          I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. -- Pogo

          by annieli on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:38:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  in order to form a more perfect union (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          valadon, Matt Z, CA Berkeley WV, annieli

          work in progress, friend.

          •  trite reply (0+ / 0-)

            Your response only introduces vagueness and employs a subtle form of sophistry in that you allow "a more perfect union" to be broad in nature, rather than limited and defined under the conditions of the consitution. BTW, you should that a union differs from a consolidation which was what was originally considered at the federal convention, but eventually a federal, not national government was created that was to be employed to benefit the states. This can be seen from the powers both granted, and not granted, along with the fact that it says UNITED STATES, not ONE NATION. I suggest you do research that would enable you to understaned the US constitution through a historical context.

        •  is it civilized to lie (6+ / 0-)

          to the populace for one's own political agenda under the guise of liberty? Who is stealing from whom?

          Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

          by valadon on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:43:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  red herring alert (0+ / 0-)

            You appear to want to raise the sins of someone, in order to take a different track than responding to my questions. Has someone done wrong? Most have, my questions are still valid regardless on any infractions, even were I the one commtting them.

            •  Not true (4+ / 0-)

              You are insisting that some wrong is being done to you or others under the guise of government, when it could equally (though not in an equivalent sense), be said that those in opposition to healthcare reform are lying to suit their own political agenda under the guise of liberty....

              I was not raising any specific "sins" (nor for that matter do I believe in a concept of sin).

              Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

              by valadon on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 04:01:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Still avoiding (0+ / 0-)

                the fundamental points I raised, for if there is no power under the US constitution to legislate concerning heatlth care in order to provide it, then, YES, under the 9th and 10th amendments my rights would be violated. Also, by labeling liberty a "political agenda" you cheapen the argument, which is what is my right to liberty. The answer would be the freedom to decide my own morality as long as I don't pick your pocket or break your leg. Although I will grant that a community sufficiently small enough to hew closer to a true democracy may enacts laws that one would consider taking away from one's liberty, but in such a case one is always free to move.

                •  what in the US Constitution (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Matt Z, Wendy Slammo, CA Berkeley WV

                  disallows legislation for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? What prevents the Congress from implementing healthcare reform when it should be noted that they have legislated for Veteran's health, medicare, Social Security and the like? It seems to me if your argument were to have any merit that the Supreme Court would have found all these measures unconstitutional.

                  I'm not insulting anyone's liberty...it belongs to every human being, let alone to you. If you truly understood my point you'd see that i was talking about those who were making an insincere political argument while disingenuously calling on liberty as their rationale.

                  Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                  by valadon on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 04:26:21 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Fuck you and your questions, troll (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Matt Z, CA Berkeley WV, annieli

              By your logic, there should be no Medicare or Fire Department, of Police Department.

              "To provide for the general welfare..."

              You forget that one, asshole?

              Fuck you.

              We need two lists: those we will work to elect and those we will defeat. If you're not progressive, you're not a Democrat.

              by moosely2006 on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 04:21:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  congress was given the power to pass laws (7+ / 0-)

      after the preamble, that comes first. the very first thing. and the judiciary sees that they are within the bounds of the Constitution.

      I have my pocket copy right here, but I am a lousy typist and #5 daughter has freshman orientation at high school tonight.

      as citizens we gave our consent to form the union. what does the concept of the united states mean to you? we fought a civil war to settle the idea of union the first thing list in the preamble as the reason for the Constitution you seem to want to bash me over the head with right now.

      in the preamble they rattled off three things before they got to the soldier stuff, so i think that means something. we are not a direct democracy, we elected representatives.

      Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices--François-Marie Arouet

      by CA Berkeley WV on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:30:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  you are incoherent (0+ / 0-)

        but anyway, the power to pass laws is limited only to bringing about the enumerated powers and is thus a subordinate and not a primary all encompassing power. Further the judiciary has no legislatvie power, and certainly not the power to revise the US constitution, only to rule on those matters arising under the US constitution. It is very easy to consider all disputes as coming under such jurisdiction, but honesty compels one to acknowledge that SCOTUS has gone beyond it's bounds, and used sophistry to allow both the exexuctive and legislative branches to violate the US constitution.
            As I said please cite the power AND a preratification figure, not a post ratification justice, although I will gladly break down and fallacious and specious reasoning used by those who shamed themselves by taking liberties not theirs to take.

        •  are you an anarchists or royalist? (3+ / 0-)

          preratification?

          its here baby and like i said we fought one civil war for the united states. your proposition contemplates the idea that we are not. as one of those progressives, i think this country is pretty swell. some of my folk left europe before that little rebellion thingy. i work just down the road from antietam. don't talk to me about justification for the union of state under the constitution please. the ditches were filled with blood. deal.

          article i section 1

          all legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a congress of the united states

          article i section 8

          the congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes

          to borrow money on the credit of the united states

          to regulate commerce with foreign nations and among the several states

          etc, etc, etc

          Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices--François-Marie Arouet

          by CA Berkeley WV on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:51:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  division of powers (0+ / 0-)

            The phrase "all legislative power" is only indicating where the power to legislate UNDER the US constitution and it's LIMITED grants of authority resides. This was to prevent a mixing of the branches of government, such as where the King or judges could legislate in England. If one used your logic, one could then say that congress can legislate for Canada or China, rather than within the confines of the US constitution.

          •  a fuller response..one of my blogs (0+ / 0-)

            Can the federal government involve itself in health care?

            Currently under the GRANTED, LIMITED, powers granted to the federal government it has the power to do the following things;

            1. Raise revenue. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the Common Defense and General Welfare of the United States; but all duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States. Though this is limited as the revenue is for 3 purposes, to pay the debts, provide for the general welfare of the UNITED STATES, and the common defense. It should be noted that general welfare though misconstrued by many to be a broad grant is not even a grant, merely a purpose. How then do we know what is considered to be the general welfare? Well thankfully certain powers were delegated by which we may know what is considered general welfare.

                   

            1. To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
            1. To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

                  This could be troubling as regulating commerce at first glance appears a bit vague, as does "among the states". Fortunately good scholarly research has gone into this (Randy Barnett and Robert G. Natelson) that show the legal AND common understanding of commerce to be the exchange of goods. Certain sitting courts of the Supreme Court have considered this to grant congress the power to regulate industry or business that has affect on commerce. This is both disingenuous and untrue to the plain text and historical context.
                 First one must consider what is it that the framers and those who ratified were seeking to correct. Remember, "a more perfect union", and "domestic tranquility". What was not "perfect"? Well a state such as Maryland or Virginia might impose a tax upon ships not registered in their state for docking at their ports, others might levy tariffs upon the people of one state bringing their goods through their state. Thus REGULATE AMONG THE STATES was meant to both bring about harmony and keep the states united, and ensure a regular flow of commerce whereby all the states would benefit (general welfare).
                  Second, and although partially dealt with above, what does "among the states" mean? Well as I said, I partially showed among the states to be a governing, regulating influence to prevent one state from levying excise, taxes, or tariffs that were detrimental to others. This then we know is a power that extends to the states. Is it a power that extends to the private citizen? Under a limited grants constitution, if a power is not granted, then it cannot be exercised.
                   We know that it is a limited grants constitution as to gain more powers, amendments must be ratified for such. We also have clarification through the 9th and 10th amendments that show that the people have rights and are not granted them...retained by the people, and that the people and the states are the only ones that may exercise powers not granted. As no grant of power in the US constitution gives the federal government any specific authority either over the individual or to legislate on his behalf any attempt to regulate private business or promote good, particularly specific good that benefits the individual can only be seen as a usurpation of a right and power not granted.
                   To further ascertain the scope of power for the federal government we must look to the effect and manner of operation under the US constitution. For example.." The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence",  from what is omitted we may see that individuals are not the concern, but the states comprising the Union.
                       

            1. To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
            1. To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin and fix the Standard of weights and measures;
            1. To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting, the Securities and current coin of the United States;
            1. To establish Post roads and post offices;
            1. To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
            1. To constitute tribunals inferior to the supreme court;
            1. To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offences against the laws of nations;
            1. To declare war, grant letters of Margue and Reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
            1. To raise and support armies, but no appropriations of Money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
            1. To provide and maintain a navy;
            1. To make rules for the government  and regulation of land and naval forces;
            1. To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
            1. To provide for organizing, arming and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by congress;
            1. To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such district (not exceeding ten miles square), as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dock-yards and other needful buildings; - And
            1. To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department thereof.

                  I included all of the powers granted for three purposes, 1) To make sure we have before us all the powers available for governance to see if under any one of them Congress may involve itself in health care. 2) To illustrate the general effect and manner of operation of Congress’s power. 3) To see that the purposes of Congress are then defined by the powers granted. To pay the debts is self explanatory, so no exposition, but it needs to noted that as common defense is not a broad unlimited power, but a purpose defined and powers granted to do is seen by 11,12, and13 to name a few. In like manner so is general welfare a purpose defined and powers granted for, such as 4, 5 and 6.
                 In addition to the above, concerning the claim of "general welfare" being a power, rather than a purpose for which the power of revenue is granted, one needs only look at the structure used in wording the revenue power... The congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States...Here it is seen that a qualification on the revenue power is attached at the end, but if debts, defense and welfare were separate powers, why would they be packaged between a power and a qualifying phrase? This, in addition to the superfluity of enumerating powers which could easily be legislated on if Common Defense, or General Welfare were broad grants of power makes clear that the so called "General Welfare" clause that many use as an excuse for their usurpative acts is anything but.
                  Now a question may come up, "What about 18". Easily answered in that it is placed there as an ancillary and subordinate power because of the difficulty in enumerating all the powers needed to carry out the above, but it certainly cannot properly be construed  as a grant of power beyond those enumerated, only an assisting power, and if the main power does not speak to an issue, then certainly "necessary and proper" can only be understood in a limited sense, and in  defining it’s usage as limiting, again NECESSARY and PROPER.
                 What about the Supreme Court’s rulings?
                             Section. 2. The Judicial power shall extend to all cases... arising under this Constitution...
            The important phrase above is ...."arising under this constitution". As private/individual citizens conduct of business, or the power to provide for their good, does not arise under this constitution one can only look at those decisions given by SCOTUS as misconduct and certainly a violation of the good behavior clause that allows a justice to maintain office.              
                   In summary without the states and/or the people formally expressing their will through an amendment, and thus saying that we continue to be bound to the current grants of power, regardless of when adopted, the answer is "No, the federal government may not involve itself in health care."    

        •  CA Berkeley is "incoherent?' (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AmericanRiverCanyon, Matt Z

          For God's sake, get this fucked up troll out of here.

          We need two lists: those we will work to elect and those we will defeat. If you're not progressive, you're not a Democrat.

          by moosely2006 on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 04:24:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  ignore it, it will have to get more outrageous (4+ / 0-)

            ... and then it will start to piss everybody off instead of being boring.  Yee gads, sounds like a McCarpetbagger fan on steroids.

            "Toads of Glory, slugs of joy... as he trotted down the path before a dragon ate him"-Alex Hall/ Stop McClintock

            by AmericanRiverCanyon on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 04:30:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  are all originalists so anal compulsive? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            moosely2006, Matt Z

            the troll mocks my idea of WWJD. i don't know what posses me to engage. that pocket copy that bobby byrd sent me gets the best of me sometimes.

            and, thank you. kagro x says my writing is dense or cryptic, but i have never considered myself incoherent. i stopped drinking years ago.

            Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices--François-Marie Arouet

            by CA Berkeley WV on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 10:15:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  forgot something (0+ / 0-)

        In regards to the civil war, please elaborate on how using force to make others submit is  justified as either a constitutional or analytical argument in regards to what the "union" is under the constitution. Do you mean that anytime I want to win an arguemnt all I need to do is knock the other guy out?

        •  so did i (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Matt Z

          Shoo Fly Pie
           
            * 1 c. flour
            * 2/3 c. brown sugar
            * 1 Tbsp. shortening
            * 1 tsp. baking soda
            * 3/4 c. hot water
            * 1 c. molasses
            * 1 egg, beaten
            * 1 9" unbaked pie shell

          Combine flour and brown sugar. Cut shortening into flour mix until crumbly. Reserve 1/2 c. crumbs.

          Dissolve baking soda in hot (but not boiling) water. In a small bowl, combine molasses, egg, and baking soda water and beat well. Pour into unbaked pie shell. Sprinkle with reserved crumbs. Bake at 375 degrees for 35 minutes.

          Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices--François-Marie Arouet

          by CA Berkeley WV on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 10:27:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Article I, Section 8 (5+ / 0-)

      The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States;

      Forget it, Randite.  You lost.

    •  Troll Alert! Read his postings. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Matt Z, CA Berkeley WV

      And note his lack of recommendations.

      He's a troll spewing right-wing talking points, fancied up to sound like Constitutional law.

      He needs to be expunged.

      Admins?

      We need two lists: those we will work to elect and those we will defeat. If you're not progressive, you're not a Democrat.

      by moosely2006 on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 04:19:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  There is no perfect government, as they are all (4+ / 0-)

      subject to the influence of imperfect humans and power has a tendency to corrupt we humans.

      Morality quite simply is doing unto others as you would be done to.  Good governments and happy societies tend to occur where this type of morality prevails in the humans who serve their government.  Stingy, bigotted, me firsters otoh have a tendency to rule in favor of their own pockets before their people.

      1. It was the Conservative Administration recently past that most bypassed the constitution, by implementing spying on its own citizens, denying  speedy trials and trials altogether, by torturing and by politicizing our judicial system as never before, by lieing to you and me.  ie WMD and spying.   Did you object to any of that?  And did you find that moral?  
      1. Today we face an unforeseen problem that you don't seem to be aware of:  An America by and for the Corporations.   Corporations now own a goodly number of our legislators and their lobbyists influence most of the legislators and the legislation that arises there.  They used the cloak of deregulation & small government to take control.

      Case in Point:  Did you see what happened due to the rescinding the  Glass Steagal Act ?  ( The financial industry deregulation that nearly dumped us back into a depression recently and may still end up that way.)

      There are some governmental things that are best served on a local basis and some that are best served on a federal basis.  And people have always held different opinions as to which are best served where.  Sometimes these differences of opinion are really matters of self interest rather than any desire for the common good.

      Historically government involvement is the most effective and financially feasible way to improve the common welfare.  The common welfare we need to keep a strong economy and nation.  The commons are things that affect all of us...the things that affect society as a whole:

      Education:  It serves all of us to have a well educated voting population and work force.  Not just well educated people in one state.  Not just education for the wealthiest amongst us.  

      Fire & Police Protection: It serves all of us to have a government run cohesive fire or police dept.  Afterall, if your neighbor can't afford fire protection...their burning house could affect yours.

      Clean Air & Water: They know no state boundaries.  

      Roads & Transportaion regs:  It serves all of us to have good roads for commerce and travel.  

      Health: It serves all of us to have a healthy population that can work and fully participate. Not just healthy people in one state because people travel and move.  It is also just common sense to have an effective health care available for ALL to help limit epidemics and contagious illnesses etc. (and most scientists are projecting we will have more of these due to current changing climate conditions. If you think that any of the Health care proposals are somehow contrary to our constitution then you must also be against Social Security & Medicare etc etc?   Maybe you even don't want women to vote because it wasn't in the original constitution?  

      government is not god...but it has the potential for doing what individuals and local govts can't do to help make us a stronger, healthier and better educated nation for all.

    •  Fruits of ones labor? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Matt Z, CA Berkeley WV

      Where exacltly does it say this? But the short answer as to why government can do anything. Think national security. You can relate to this can't you? It is the new stream of commerce riff.

      Healthcare is a human right, not a commodity.

      by nomorerepukes on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 05:01:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You're right that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      huntergeo, CA Berkeley WV

      health care  is not specifically mandated in the Constitution or other documents pertaining to the role of the government.

      However, you're mostly wrong.

      It's the government's job to provide for the common good and promote general welfare. That's in the Constitution. Don't invoke the Constitution unless you've actually read it.

    •  I'd like to tax you 'til you get the BENDS, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Matt Z, CA Berkeley WV

      and use it to care for the poor, and the sick, and the unfortunate, like Jesus would have.

      We solved the issue of states rights and some other disgusting traditions with a Damned War, because a few bleeding plantation owners convinced the rest of their states' citizens that The Government was against them.

      By the fucking way, the power to tax is enumerated in the US Constitution:

      The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

      Article I, Section 8, Clause 1.

      Do you want to tell me that the "general Welfare" doesn't mean universal health care?  

      It's not a campaign anymore, Mr. Obama.

      by huntergeo on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 08:00:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Liberty doesn't happen in a vacuum. (0+ / 0-)

      Faux Noise notwithstanding.

      Sorry to hear you've been enslaved by clean air, clean water, consumer safety, medical advances, scientific research and discoveries, constitutional protections, etc. Must be horrible for you. You could always go live somewhere where you can be free of such abominations. Good luck with that.

      Regarding healthcare, try this: next time you're seriously ill (which will be your own fault, of course, because you alone are responsible for your life) and funds are tight, instead of relying on any hospital, medicine or insurance intervention that may have been publicly subsidized, just go beg your neighbors to help you out. You know, the same neighbors that don't want to give one penny in taxes to ensure that their neighbors are cared for in times of a health crisis. I'm sure they'd love to diagnose you and change your bedpans and stuff.

      faux newz media lyin 2 ur peepz

      Help thy brother's boat across the stream, and Lo! Thine own has reached the shore. --Hindu proverb

      by CMYK on Wed Aug 26, 2009 at 11:36:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bachmann said we did not need to worry (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    leema, moosely2006, Matt Z, Wendy Slammo

    about climate change or global warming of pollution or whatever because some guy already saved the earth and we did not need Pelosi's ideas.

    Falwell started a law school at Liberty. The dean is generating the long list of taking points against health care reform. Someone here said let's hope they never get a medical school. I still agree.

    My invisible unicorn is the same color as Nancy's.

    Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices--François-Marie Arouet

    by CA Berkeley WV on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:23:51 PM PDT

  •  Maybe Bachman should consider that (0+ / 0-)

    God brought us Obama....to counter people like her, instead of being so egocentric that she thinks that it is all about herself.

    For myself, if I believed in a god, I doubt if he/she/it would be at all concerned with our politics, our wars, our baseball games, and all the other petty little things people pray for or against.  At least judging by the evidence that would seem to be the case.

  •  Reid "going it alone"?! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    moosely2006, Matt Z

    LOL.  Reid cannot even go to the restroom alone!

    With friends like Reid, we really don't need enemies, do we?!

    -7.75, -5.64 ... Marriage should be between one man and one woman... and another woman in Argentina!

    by Whirlaway on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:27:56 PM PDT

  •  Grassley's a lying two-faced ass (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    moosely2006, Matt Z

    And he's got to know it.

    Read this:

    In March, Grassley characterized himself as an honest negotiator, telling the Kaiser Family Foundation that "everything is on the table. ... You don’t negotiate when everything is not on the table...everything’s got to be on the table if you’re negotiating in good faith."

    Then consider the Republican position on, just for example, Iran.  We'll only negotiate after they capitulate to all our demands.  Nothing on the table but a few bits of garnish.

  •  Republicans still haven't gotten over Schiavo (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kscatlvr2001, moosely2006, Matt Z, CMYK

    whom they planned to "kidnap" to save her from the "death panel" comprised of her husband, doctors, and the courts. Republicans favor government intervention in health care only when they hope to score political points without actually improving anyone's state of health. It's incredible that Repulican compassion can only be stirred by the "needs" of those who cannot speak for themselves and not by any heartfelt pleas from real live thinking and feeling human beings. Apparently, you must be in a vegetative state in order to receive any empathy from Republicans. Perhaps because this state so closely approximates their own state.

  •  You had the House, Senate and Presidency (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mithra, moosely2006, Matt Z, sillycilla

    for years, and rammed through many odious things like the war, the bankruptcy bill, YET you didn't pass "tort reform, tax credits for premiums and multi-state insurance." So you have NO leg to stand on now. Besides, even if we gave you those 3 things, you'll still vote no on the bill. So you don't get them and stop asking for them.

  •  It Is Amazing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mithra

    That these clowns are seriously winning the message war, but then again, they always have been able to piss and moan better than anyone. It is all they know and how they stay relevant.

    And somehow, our media, and a lot of the American public fall for the dog and pony show again and again.

    Just answer me this, why did Obama win a near landslide? Just a question to ponder.  

  •  On Sundays, after Mass, the sick came in scores, (0+ / 0-)

    ...crying for help -- and words were all they got.  "You have sinned and God is afflicting you.  Thank Him; you will suffer so much less the torment in the life to come.  Endure, suffer, die.  Has not the Church its prayers for the dead?"

    Why are they shooting abortion doctors, when they could be shooting bankers?

    by Subversive on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:34:55 PM PDT

  •  Who on earth would ever vote for this woman? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z

    She is certifiably a fruitcake. Not a lick of sense.

    Why do they want this kind of representation for their voices?

    <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

    by bronte17 on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 03:42:14 PM PDT

  •  "government is the solution to our problems"? (0+ / 0-)

    No, dammit, the government's job is to CREATE our problems, not solve them!

  •  And Then There's McCain (0+ / 0-)

    •  Wow, a civics lesson by J. McCain (0+ / 0-)

      When he talks sense he's actually pretty good.  That audience is scary, the question he answered didn't even make sense.  I'm guessing that having to pander to these folks has been wearing on him, it would be awesome if he switched parties, although he'd be a pretty lousy democrat.  Even better if he just decided not to run for another term and delivered a blistering farewell address.  His wife has more money than he could ever spend, so he's got nothing to lose.

  •  knees of liberty (0+ / 0-)

    And the spew of god.  She knows.  She's praying for it.  It involves orgasm, but whose?

  •  That's right... if there was Healthcare for all (0+ / 0-)

    then you'd have less people praying for a miracle cure because it would have be treated with preventative medicine.

    It all goes back to the fear of the church no longer being the only beacon on the hill.

  •  Grassley is SLIME.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bluegrass50

    such a prototypical Republican Thug.

    The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion are adversaries are insane. -Mark Twain

    by Iva Biggin on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 04:13:35 PM PDT

  •  Rep. Moran seems to be doing a good (0+ / 0-)

    job on c-Span

  •  The government is not the answer, (0+ / 0-)

    The government is not the answer, it's the insurance companies. Oh wait... they already dumped him.

    Helping each other sounds great, but how's it supposed to work with long-term chronic debilitation? Everybody on the block needs help too. Not even close, Senator

  •  the media need to get this straight: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z

    "death panels" etc are NOT "MYTHS"

    They are NOT "RUMORS"

    They are LIES deliberately calculated to mislead.

  •  Just got called by the NRA (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z

    It turns out that Hillary Clinton wants to turn us into Nazi Germany!

    I have no idea how I got on their list.

    Your certainty that everyone except for you is stupid is prima facie evidence that it isn't true.

    by cardinal on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 05:51:23 PM PDT

  •  what would lbj do? (0+ / 0-)

    he would call good ol' sen. tom coburn from oklahoma and tell him, "since you truly believe, "the idea that the government is the solution to our problems is an inaccurate, a very inaccurate statement," don't call me or my administration the next time a tornado wipes out an oklahoma town or when, God forbid, an oklahoma federal building is bombed and 168 oklahomans are murdered. FEMA, the FBI, ATF, are all part of that inaccurate government solution."

  •  See what our neighbors can do? (0+ / 0-)

    Does Tom coburn think everyone lives nextdoor to a brain surgeon or a team of nurses with 10-15 hours of free time everyday?

    Citizenship is a contact sport!

    by horowitz on Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 07:44:58 PM PDT

  •  I just hate Republicans (0+ / 0-)

    there is nothing good about any of them. They lie, they cheat, they kill, they are scum.

  •  Can we give Rick Sanchez a shout-out here? (0+ / 0-)

    His exasperated incredulity at Coburn's response to this poor woman seems to strike just the right note.

    On CNN lately, we've seen too little of this willingness to call the Republicans' tactics and pronouncements what they really are.

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