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There is a wide diversity of opinion among Kossacks, and yet there are hard lines between comments that are within the purpose of this community and those that are either irrelevant or antithetical to it.  One of those lines is the requirement that statements at least have some discernable relationship to reality - a principle that had become threatened when this site was inundated with Truthers - and the founder, owner, and namesake of this community decided he would defend it from that threat and extirpate Trutherism and other irrational CT.  We fight for freedom of speech, but that doesn't mean we have to tolerate madness or hate speech in our own homes, and Markos decided enough was enough.  Apparently it is time for another round.

When the Truthers were thrown out, I am sure many of them flung accusations of hypocrisy at us, called us right-wing shills, corporate puppets, or raved about Markos being a CIA plant or some other such batshit.  And I am sure their accusations made a lot of sincere people nervous and reflective, and perhaps even disagree with the decision to ban Truther content.  But I for one have found this community to be a bastion of reason, credible information, progressive values, and Democratic activism precisely because such standards are enforced.  Until now.

Now there is a diary on the Rec List that is, while thoughtful and well-written, is simply, definitively anti-American.  And it is not an isolated case of a respected contributor posting idiosyncratic ideas, but rather an example of a general trend that I've been noting for some time.  A trend toward diaries and comments from an increasingly spiteful, irrational, bitter, and paranoid fringe that does not even represent the majority of progressive activists, let alone Democrats.  A trend toward promulgating one fear- or hate-based rumor stacked on top of another until the zeitgeist of fantasy walls itself off into an alternate universe.  

The lies snowball into accepted truths, which then obtain social legitimacy when people are badgered into not HRing them, and suddenly Kossacks find themselves on the defensive when they, whimperingly and humbly, suggest that maybe Barack Obama is not an idiot, weakling, or corrupt corporate puppet, and America is not a shithole comprised of evil, racist, religious fundamentalist bigots.  We find ourselves called "right-wing" or "centrists" for stating facts because those facts do not support the ideological shadow plays being put on by these vile, hate-driven commenters.  

We are seeing events unfold in our community that we were, only a few months before, gleefully witnessing in the Republican Party as the teabaggers took over and methodically extinguished any last trace of political relevance in its leadership.  "The Democrats" has now become a third-person reference rather than a reference to ourselves, despite the clear and unambiguous statement that this is a Democratic blog, and even "The United States" is taking on increasingly blatant connotations as something posters are referring to as The Other.  

The diary that spurred this response is not irrational like many that are part of this phenomenon, and its tone is certainly more reasonable, but for me it is the straw that broke the camel's back.  I give that diarist - whom I will not specifically refer to, in order to avoid running afoul of "call-out" rules - credit for the diary's eloquence and thoughtfulness, but ultimately what it expresses is something that does not belong here and does not serve our purposes.  It is, in fact, largely significant as an indicator of how legitimized viewpoints have become around here that are 100% at odds with the purpose of this community.  

It does not say "I am unhappy with what America is doing, so I will work to change it."  It does not say "I am unhappy with what America is doing, so I will try to limit my contributions to what I find objectionable."  It does not even say "I am unhappy with what America is doing, so I will leave it until it changes for the better."  No.  Rather, it is rejecting the United States body and soul, going all the way back to its Founding, and declaring our nation an inherently illegitimate and evil entity that deserves no support.  And this is on the Rec List - the list that communicates to the world what we stand for.

Enough is enough.  Like the proverbial Elvis, common sense has left the building, and it is time to reaffirm the purpose of this community.  Kossacks are Americans and friends of America abroad; Democrats and friends of the Democratic Party abroad; and if a comment or diary doesn't fit into any one of those categories, it doesn't belong here.  The rules are already clear in text, but they are not clear in fact until they are enforced.  Kos, Meteor Blades, et al...I invoke you and call down the wrath of Olympus on the despicable content that has been allowed to pervert this community's character and retard its effectiveness.  If you choose not to, all I can say is it's your decision, and your blog to lose.  I'm not going anywhere in any case, but I would rather be fighting Republicans than spending all my time combating the propaganda of Truthers and people who openly revile this country and its people.  Take back your blog.

Originally posted to Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:18 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Troubadour, you have a point on this subject... (11+ / 0-)

      Criticizing public policy choices and strategies is patently American and our patriotic duty. Anti-American diaries not only dissuade non-Kossack Americans from rallying to the progressive cause and tend to marginalize progressives as a whole as the Leftward lunatic fringe, but they cast a dark shadow on what is a salient blog in the realm of policymaking influence.

      http://democratictribune.com/

      by Democratic Tribune on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:41:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You make a critical point. (6+ / 0-)

        This community has won enormous influence through its clear-headedness, intelligence, and commitment to real change, but that influence has attracted people whose ideology played no role in securing it - indeed, whose opinions were largely not tolerated at the time, but whom we now tolerate through a combination of complacency and vulnerability to the fears they feed on.  

        I can haz rashunality?

        by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:53:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I haven't read the diary and won't, but (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timaeus, Aquagranny911

          I expect the diarist is young, under 40 young, and lacks perspective on the wiles and whims of the American experience.  On the other hand, there is also currently a diary about the diarist's 75 year old father who, with the diarist's step-mother, are moving to Pnanama.  As an oldster myself, I see that as essentially seeking one last fling for the Good Life couched in bitterness.  

          •  I assume you're referring to the other diarist (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JFinNe, Thomas Paine Redux

            as none of that involves me (other than being under 40).

            I can haz rashunality?

            by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:12:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Troubadour, if you want an indication of how... (6+ / 0-)

              far The Daily Kos has fallen with regards to its original purpose i.e. get Democrats elected and implement the progressive agenda, take a look at recs for your diary and Pluto's:

              Yours = 14
              Pluto's = too many to count

              Kossacks have taken their eye off the ball. They are too into raging and supporting the notion of hating their country (and even some of their own progressives) that they are more satisfied with propagating a shameful diary like Pluto's instead of getting on board with the sensible action i.e. purge that useless, anti-American piece of crap from the website altogether.

              •  Respecfully (6+ / 0-)

                This is when I remind both you and Troubador - users whose UID's are over 100,000, that the FAQ is not static.  The stated purpose of this site has changed over the years, and is not identical to that which existed when some of us began posting here.  You are correct that the site's purposes are primarily electoral NOW, but any argument that this was the "original purpose of the site" is just false.

                Were that the case, I would not have come here, 5 years ago now.

                •  OK then, enjoy your Plutoesque free speech... (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  freakofsociety, Troubadour, athensga

                  I implore you. Just don't complain when you're exercising it in the minority for the next 20-30 years with no health care...

                  •  Oh Get a Grip (10+ / 0-)

                    There is nothing DailyKOS does that influences the damned health care debate.  We are just another damned data point for politicians and pundits. That's all.  And, at times, a convenient whipping boy for folks operating from the right in similar types of echo chambers.  

                    The egos of some of the posters at this place astound me sometimes.  Do you really think you're that important in the larger scheme of things just because you surround yourself with folks who think just like you do? Seriously?

                    •  P.S. I Need to Clarify (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Lawdog, GreenSooner, TheMomCat, bobswern

                      That there are individuals here who have made a true difference through their personal efforts when it comes to the health care debate amongst other things.  But those individuals are not named "DailyKOS".  And I would not be so arrogant as to presume that my puny contributions of money and commentary here have anything to do with their successes.  I'm just proud to be able to say we have something in common, and try to emulate their example.

                    •  Whoa...stop the presses...did you just say... (7+ / 0-)

                      There is nothing DailyKOS does that influences the damned health care debate.

                      Have you not read the endless diaries posted by U.S Senators, Representatives, former DNC chairs regarding this subject? If The Daily Kos doesn't influence the "damned" health care debate, why are they always seeking our support???

                      I think you tend to minimize what is at stake here. This is a VASTLY influential progressive blog, but it won't be for long if anti-American propaganda is accepted on a regular basis.

                      •  I Have Indeedf (5+ / 0-)

                        But I've also known enough politicians real time to know when they are politicking.  And if you haven't, you may wish to put down the mouse and go meet some.  You'll come to a much better understanding of why they post here.  (Actually their staff, for the most part, notable exceptions excepted.)  It's no different than having a Town Hall meeting, except online.

                        •  No need for phony condescension... (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          freakofsociety, Troubadour

                          You don't "understand" any of this better than I do. I just have a higher purpose for this site than some self-indulgent, adolescent need to always express myself at the expense of implementing a progressive agenda. Anti-American diaries turn the American public against the cause. That isn't "politicking"...it's just common sense.

                          •  OK Fair Enough (3+ / 0-)

                            You have a higher purpose for this site.  And you have a personal definition of what is, or is not "Anti-American" when it comes to diaries.

                            But now you need to accept that this site was not created just for you and your view.  

                            But I reiterate that if you genuinely believe that politicians' staffs writing here (again, notable exceptions excepted) are genuinely an indication that DailyKOS has some unique voice in the political debate, then you don't understand politics as well as you think you do.  The internet is a godsend for politicians - it's a guarantee that they don't have to actually face anyone, while folks fawn all over them just for deigning to have their staff write here.  Having known dozens at this point in my life at all three levels of government (local, state and federal) and having refused to be one myself despite numerous invitations to do so, I am well aware of how much influence an anonymous commentator, or even thousands of them, is likely to have on a politician.

                          •  Damn right! (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Nightprowlkitty

                            I am well aware of how much influence an anonymous commentator, or even thousands of them, is likely to have on a politician.

                            Approaching or at zero. I am also amazed at how many times I see calls to write some elected official not one's own elected official. Those zip code boxes on Congressional webmail also occasionally get people here riled. They are there for a purpose that some of our politically naive just cannot seem to get.

                            All these people represent a constituency and if you are not at least a potential voter in that constituency your "voice" really and truly counts for nothing. Even your small donations count as nothing more than a welcome gift--your accompanying card may go unread.

                            The idea diaries or comments on a blog influence politicians is pretty much a pipe dream. We can only, perhaps, influence each other and that may include triggering an otherwise silent constituent to write their own representative.

                            The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

                            by pelagicray on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:11:02 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This is self-actualizing impotence. (4+ / 0-)

                            "We're so insignificant and powerless, who needs responsibility?"

                            I can haz rashunality?

                            by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:31:19 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Meant that Troubadour is exactly right. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ChicDemago, Troubadour
                          •  Now You're Projecting (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            pelagicray

                            Because nobody said that the individual members of DailyKOS, even working collectively, are "powerless" or "insignificant".  Certainly, I believe I've made clear over the years that we all do have responsibility.

                            (Unless of course you can point to someone saying differently?  I'd love to see if it that has been the case.)

                            What is being said is this:  if you think BLOGGING here gives you power or significance, or that it fulfills yours or anyone's else's responsibility for ACTION -- at the local, state and/or federal level -- then you are truly elevating belonging to a social club to something meaningful in the larger scheme of American politics.  Because in the end that's all DailyKOS collectively is.  It is the individual contributors who have themselves laid their bodies on the line that have made a difference - and they didn't do it by saying "OOOH I blog at the all-important DailyKOS and a political intern actually writes here so I matter!"

                          •  My replies note the one place blogs can be (0+ / 0-)

                            highly effective outside the blogger's own voting range.

                            Those of us with practical experience in politics and campaigns can provide advice and suggestions to those organizing elsewhere.

                            We can also share ideas and have discussions that can influence how those elsewhere engage in political discussions. For example, someone that has changed a neighbors uninformed view of some of the health care falsehoods can share and the argument may have real effect in another state.

                            Those are practical things we can engage in here. The other is largely social. I enjoy some of the exchanges and find them stimulating. I have zero illusions that anything I write will be read by "a staffer" and have an effect. Knowing a few "staffers" in my time I also have no illusions about what a blog reading level staffer's influence is likely to be even if I impressed them!

                            The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

                            by pelagicray on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 10:30:57 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Bull! (0+ / 0-)

                            All politics is local. Your and my responsibility is for the people representing us. An exercise in impotence is to spend a lot of time trying to influence people having no responsibility to hear us--people with a direct responsibility to represent a group of which we are not a part.

                            Real influence is most effectively exercised with constituents own representatives. That is what representative democracy is all about. There I have and exercise some influence. That is where I must concentrate energy.

                            The idea I see so often expressed here that "we" should exercise influence over someone else's representative is largely a pipe dream and foolish. Yes, a really powerful anonymous opinion piece by a blogger may be read by some representative and its self evident truth and power may influence a thought here and there. That would be a rare occurrence.

                            Yes, we can send money to help elect good people beyond our representatives. That is the one place we can have some influence. That comes with two caveats:

                            1. Most of us don't have enough to send to be really noticed and be heard in any other way than a deposit.
                            1. Too much outside money often backfires inside the constituency. A not infrequently effective campaign tactic will be to accurately not that the opponent is financed by "outside interests." That can be deadly.

                            To some extent the same can be said for volunteer work. It can be very helpful to volunteer for someone that is not your representative. However, too many overt "outside" volunteers can also be a weak point.

                            The best use of blogs is to organize like minded people, offer advice and help them organize locally to change what only they can change at the ballot box.

                            The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

                            by pelagicray on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 09:55:45 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Your notion of democracy is sad, at best... (0+ / 0-)

                            Perhaps it's some sense of self-loathing...I don't know. What I do know is The Daily Kos is read by and contributed to by more policymakers than any other blog in the country. To minimize its importance in the political arena is to have a complete lack of comprehension of how the media contributes to substantive public policy.

                          •  That (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            pelagicray

                            And $2.00 will get me a cup of coffee at Dunkin' Donuts.  Who cares what blog politicians "contribute to?" Seriously.  I care that they do their JOBS - which is to represent their constituencies in Washington, ideally in the progressive way I personally spend my time and money on politicians encouraging/entreating/combating.

                            I am truly reminded of high school cliques when I read arguments like this, i.e that somehow because a congressional staffer (almost all the time) deigns to write something to a bunch of anonymous people, those people must be really "important" to the thinking or -- most critically -- decisionmaking of that politician.  Nobody outside of a clique has any clue how they really work, they just know that since they are "the thing to be" and everyone has elevated them to All That, it must all somehow really be important, so the members themselves must be Really Special.

                            The sad thing is that I thought I left folks who were enslaved by this type of group thinking behind in High School.

                          •  Bull--as I note above. (0+ / 0-)

                            Your view is another indication to me Civics 101 is sorely needed in classrooms.

                            The idea a blog will change a politician's mind is tooth fairy thinking. The idea that your brilliant and anonymous piece on this site will make DiFi change her stand on some issue, or be read by an administration staffer and change the course of the Presidency is opium smoke.

                            What a blog can perhaps change is thinking among a politicians actual constituency and assist others with moral support and practical organizational ideas.

                            The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

                            by pelagicray on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 10:04:08 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It appears that your complaint... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...about those expressing their frustration or just their need to become expatriots (and why) is misplaced per the history of community flux in this particular forum. There were lots of displays of this very kind of angst and/or resolve leading up to and following the '04 Bush re-election. Threats to emigrate, plans to emigrate, sometimes a shrug and surrender to the need to emigrate (for that person's own reasons).

                            The forging of what became the netroots push toward the '06 midterms (and significant Dem gains) was the result. I consider it "good." You can't fix what's wrong with America unless you admit there's something wrong. And not everyone who did, does or might have someday contributed to the fight is able to sustain it indefinitely. Even if they wish it well. That's okay too.

                            Purity trolling gives me a headache.

                  •  The real Tom Paine (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    TheMomCat, Roadbed Guy

                    bailed on England, then bailed on the US.



                    Medical Marijuana is Healthcare. does YOUR bill cover it?

                    by ben masel on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:57:58 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  I don't support Kos purge (6+ / 0-)

                which is why I did not rec this diary.

              •  Sensible action tends to take a back seat (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                athensga

                as soon as progressives are in a position to actually make a difference.  Then we start getting unsure of ourselves, start dissecting every question to an infinite degree, and refuse to make any hard decisions or show real leadership because it might (whimper) involve making someone unhappy.

                I can haz rashunality?

                by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:29:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Shouldn't you wait till this diary has been up (0+ / 0-)

                for a similar length of time, then do a recount, before declaring DKos fallen from its original purpose?

            •  Yes, the other diarist (4+ / 0-)

              is whom I am referring to.  When I was young, I tried to write a novel, but immediately discerned that it would take me too long to finish, and discovered what I sought was instant gratification, rather than striving for long term goals.  That Obama has not instantly gratified our hopes and wishes and has openly proclaimed his goals will only be achieved with long term strategies, has led 'some' to make rash judgements.

          •  So starved for attention are the lunatics on... (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            askew, elmo, freakofsociety, Troubadour

            the Right and Left that they sabatage their own policymakers with crap like Pluto is shoveling. It happened with Bush prior to 2006 and it's happening now with Democrats. I just thought The Daily Kos moderators were smart enough to know when something is unacceptable.

            •  If only we'd go the sensible Center! (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Johnny Q

              The loony Left and the loony Right are just like each other!

              The Right shoots doctors and shows up with guns at Obama events.

              The Left shoots...er...welll....and brings guns to....umm....?

              The Right claims that "Obamacare" includes "Death Panels"

              The Left...er...argues that Medicare for All is the most cost effective solution to our healthcare needs?

              That's an equivalence for ya!  Thanks for the explanation, Broder!

              Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House. - Bob Herbert

              by GreenSooner on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:26:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The Left empowers The Right. (0+ / 0-)

                I think that's reason enough to kick their asses out when they veer so wildly off of anything that could be construed as constructive that they're actually denouncing the United States.

                I can haz rashunality?

                by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:33:26 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Blaming the Victim (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Johnny Q

                  The Right thinks Obama is a Socialist.  They don't need the real left to imagine that the country has been taken over by it.

                  Centrists on the other hand HATE the Left. As your comments and this diary indicate.

                  Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House. - Bob Herbert

                  by GreenSooner on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:39:18 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  If pluto is leaving the country, how does (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              randallt

              that sabotage anything?

              Rather, doesn't it give sensible folk like yourself just that much more influence amongst those of us left behind?

        •  And the American people turn from it... (4+ / 0-)

          It appears as though many Kossacks have some half-brained fantasy that all we'll need is a little brow-beating from the far Left to get our agenda through.

          NEWSFLASH, people: If you can't convince the middle 30% that you're policies are worthy of implementation, your policymakers will run from progressive policies in a heartbeat. Supporting anti-American diaries is a quick way to have center and even left-center Democrats in IN, OH, NC, VA, IA, FL and NV turn their backs on you because even if they agree with you on matters of politics, they loathe anyone who badmouths the country they love.

        •  You two do such a good job with words and stuff (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Troubadour

          like that. (like it?)

          I usually have to boil things down for myself.

          The reduction I am left with is this, Pure ideology, without reason, without strategy, without pragmatism, without regard for the millions of people whose POV is not exactly like yours leaves you standing at some Town Hall Meeting with a sign that refers to Hitler and tea bags attached to your hat.

          Balance, that is the key to a successful life.

          •  And the balance for anti-American people... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Troubadour

            is pro-American people...or 99% of the American population.

            •  My point was more on an individual (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Troubadour, athensga

              personal level.
              You know I just got through listening to an interview of Johnathan Alter on The Young Turks.  I have heard snip-its of JA saying, All or nothing is not the right thing for HCR.

              It is not what I wanted to hear so I have been shutting him out.  I have been choosing not to listen to him.

              I believe this country needs Single Payer/Not for Profit Health Care.  A strong Public Option is MY compromise.  I will fight for it.  I will fight until there is single payer.  I have a line in the sand.
              My voice is finally going to be heard.  I will no longer be shut out.  I voted for the current Government.  I worked for the current Government.  It is my POV that should be represented without altercation.

              But, then I listened to him.  I still want what I want.  I am still going to fight for it.  But, he put all of this in the context of History.  In the context of FDR and the fight for Social Security.  The context of Senator Kennedy.  He made sense.  The fight does not end with a bill.  It begins.

              Congressman Lewis shed a little light on the history of the Civil Rights Movement and how JFK came to involve himself.
              We live in a large country.  For it to work we each have a responsibility to find our own balance.
              We can't all walk around with an individual line in the sand.  If we do we are not the United Anything.

        •  that diary adds credence to the accusations (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          askew, Troubadour, athensga

          that this is a left wing whacko site, a bunch of radicals, and does damage to the efforts of progressives.
           What is astonishing, tho, is all those who were willing to rec that diary.  They leaped without looking, a charge usually relegated to the other side.
           We have a lemmings problem on our side too.  I liked it better when we were the sane ones.

          •  Actually THIS diary... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Johnny Q

            ...is the one calling this a "left wing wacko" site.

            To so many Democrats, anybody to their left is a "whacko."  This diary is just another example of that phenomenon.

            I always find amusing how frequently those who claim to favor a "Big Tent" vision of the Democratic Party start by denouncing all those on the actual left.

            Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House. - Bob Herbert

            by GreenSooner on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:28:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Your argument is doublethink. (0+ / 0-)

              Failing to tolerate intolerance is not itself intolerance.

              I can haz rashunality?

              by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:36:05 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're the only one being intolerant. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Johnny Q

                The diary you criticize isn't intolerant. You just don't like its opinions.

                Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House. - Bob Herbert

                by GreenSooner on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:45:28 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I have an idea for you, GreenSooner... (0+ / 0-)

                  Let's admit ALL free speech here. Hate speech...racist speech...truthers...THE WORKS.

                  I mean come on now, don't be hypocritical. If you really do have tolerance for opinions you may or may not agree with, let's let them ALL in. Segregationists, come on in...right?

                  Be VERY careful about the slippery slope you invite when you push a position like this...

    •  I have never been anything other than (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      shanikka, Wayward Wind

      a Democrat and an American. But I spent a lot of time and money on this site and in various campaigns trying to take back the Democratic Party and America from the DLC-ers and Republicans, that have run, respectively, the Democratic Party and this country into the ditch for the past three decades plus.

      I happen to believe that to the extent that the Democrats fail to act on behalf of the people vs. the lobbyists, is the extent that we will be returned to the wilderness, to endure another cycle of right-wing Republican rule. We had these same debates during Bill Clinton's presidency, around the Iraq War Resolution, etc., and time and time again, we've suffered the consequences.

      No I don't plan to leave America anytime soon. But one of the hallmarks of liberal progressivism is the ability to be critical of your own country, to realize that in a lot of ways we are not the "greatest country on Earth", and to be humble and willing to acknowledge the wisdom, culture and values of other nations as well. I don't have to take any particular pride in being an American to be one, and I don't have to agree with mainstream Democrats in Washington in order to maintain my status as a registered, consistent Democratic voter.

    •  No tip. You're taking kes' diary too far. (5+ / 0-)

      He bravely criticized Pluto's diary, but what you're doing feels more like piggy-backing and just taking this where it doesn't need to go, and all for the sake of doing a diary. Seems pretty transparent.

      Learn more about second-class U.S. citizenship at http://www.equalitymatters.org/

      by Larry Bailey on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:03:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Feel free to talk about my points. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        freakofsociety, beijingbetty

        Whenever you get around to it.

        I can haz rashunality?

        by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:14:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you asked, so here goes.... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheMomCat, TracieLynn, randallt

          It does not say "I am unhappy with what America is doing, so I will work to change it."  It does not say "I am unhappy with what America is doing, so I will try to limit my contributions to what I find objectionable."  It does not even say "I am unhappy with what America is doing, so I will leave it until it changes for the better."  No.  Rather, it is rejecting the United States body and soul, going all the way back to its Founding, and declaring our nation an inherently illegitimate and evil entity that deserves no support.  And this is on the Rec List - the list that communicates to the world what we stand for.

          If you're progressive, and you wrote this, why do you support immigrants to our country? They didn't 'fight' to make their countries better. They bolted.

          Are those countries they ran from, not worth fighting for? Is America great by default? People leave countries for a great many reasons; war, poverty, persecution, government corruption, the list is long.

          One of the greatest things about this country, is our freedom of speech. A person exercised it, and you call for a purge? Sounds an awful lot, like teabaggers screaming for people to 'get out of their country.'

          It's my opinion that we're at a very serious crossroad. This self immeersion into only what we want to see, and think could very well be a big part of our problem. The right see you as an enemy, and you see them in the same way. It's not long before the inevitable happens, unless someone is willing to stop the extremes. Calling for purges, is pretty extreme, in my book. Cull the herd, eliminate any opposition, expel the heretics.

          While I may not agree with that particular diarist, I really think you're missing an opportunity to learn. The fact that people are seriously considering heading for greener pastures should be a wake up call.

          •  No one is criticizing the diarist (3+ / 0-)

            for immigrating.

            Some - a very few - are criticizing the diarist for planning to leave out of defeat, out of disdain, and for holding it up like it is something clever to be admired.

            Except for that, it's not a terrible diary.

            The sleep of reason brings forth monsters.

            by beijingbetty on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:43:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Strange set of arguments. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            beijingbetty

            If you're progressive, and you wrote this, why do you support immigrants to our country? They didn't 'fight' to make their countries better. They bolted.

            This is a non sequitur, and doesn't address the quote you cited immediately before saying it.  I specifically noted that the diarist is NOT fleeing for conditional reasons, but has rejected the very basis of our country, denouncing the underlying character of the United States as vicious and loathsome.  

            One of the greatest things about this country, is our freedom of speech.

            Daily Kos is not a country, it's a website for Democrats and allies of Democrats to organize progressive activism.

            A person exercised it, and you call for a purge? Sounds an awful lot, like teabaggers screaming for people to 'get out of their country.'

            They say we hate America and should leave, and that diarist responded to them by saying "Yup.  Screw America, I'm outta here" and got on the Rec List.  It's repulsive.

            The fact that people are seriously considering heading for greener pastures should be a wake up call.

            It is a wake up call.  Hence this diary.

            I can haz rashunality?

            by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:46:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Calling for patriotic purges? (7+ / 0-)

      Strikes me as a little iffy.  Oh believe me, Pluto's diary could use a few judicious edits, don't get me wrong...it's not reasonable to expect respect for quitting before a job is done.  So let's get at it. There's a lot of work to do.  Purging puerility from the site is a fools errand... I'm not going away without a fight, for instance.  

      Where the brook puts out of the roots of the old tree and flows to the meadow

      by peterborocanuck on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:03:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bingo! (9+ / 0-)

      the list that communicates to the world what we stand for.

      I myself am feeling more uncomfortable on this site.  
      I no longer feel that this is the kind of community that represents me.  I no longer mention in outside conversations that I participate on this blog.  

      What was once a source of strength and community has evolved into a site that is as angry and strident as right wing blogs. Doesn't matter the issue  be it healthcare, gay rights, national security - the anger and vitriol toward the president and Dems borders on irrational rage.  It's astounding - the right and left joining together to bring down the president and the Dems. All the while claiming to be doing it for Obama's own good.

      Yes, Troubadour many watch this site .  Look at the image we are projecting back - it ain't pretty

      Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed. Blaise Pascal

      by Kitty on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:13:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for that. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kitty, askew, housesella, elmo, freakofsociety

        I understand exactly what you're talking about, and have witnessed the transformation with some trepidation.  We need to ask ourselves whether this site actually has a purpose, or is just a Two Minute Hate blow-off-steam site for extreme left-wingers we wouldn't have tolerated for a second during the election.

        I can haz rashunality?

        by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:19:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Golden Agism (0+ / 0-)

        This site has always had deep internal disagreements and has always had plenty of anger and vitriol....often toward Democrats (see the 2004 and 2008 presidential primaries and the Connecticut Senatorial primary in 2006 for some examples).

        We're not an echo chamber and shouldn't be.

        Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House. - Bob Herbert

        by GreenSooner on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:33:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And yet we still exercise the HR. (0+ / 0-)

          I can haz rashunality?

          by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:50:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Greensooner (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          askew, athensga

          the problem is that it's not balanced.  where are the positive voices?  

          The Rebublicans are blasting Obama and the healthcare reform and so are the Liberals.  The recommended diaries are almost all either neutral, anti-dem or even anti-USA.

          The blogesphere and liberal pundits are just about all negative. Taibbi,  Maher, Moyer, Greenwald are all scathing in their condemnation of Obama & the Dems.  The HuffPost almost never has a good word to say about the economy or the Dems. How the hell are we suppose to counter the wingers and get the public on our side?

          Obama's approval ratings today hit 47%  Who the hell is standing up for the Dems other than Howard Dean?  I hear no strong voices for our side.  The health care debate is not "fair and balanced" and neither is the left.

          Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed. Blaise Pascal

          by Kitty on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 08:07:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I feel exactly the same way (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        askew

        If I wanted to be surrounded by Obama haters, I could go to FreeRepublic.

      •  The problem is that there are a small number (0+ / 0-)

        of posters who need the anger and outrage. They can't seem to function without it. I think it would do the whole community a lot of good, if those who scream and rage are ignored and not recommended.

    •  So because you disagree with a diarist (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      randallt, Johnny Q

      You think she and everyone who remotely thinks like her ought to be purged?

      There's a political party for folks like you, and it can be found over to your right, painted in red, and full of intolerance such as you've offered here. You can't miss it, just look for the elephant symbols and the big "GOP" banner...

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

      by eugene on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:33:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  HR'd ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      randallt, Johnny Q

      ... for extreme divisiveness and the pathetic yet hateful attempt to smear folks you disagree with by calling them un-American.

      We find ourselves called "right-wing" or "centrists" for stating facts because those facts do not support the ideological shadow plays being put on by these vile, hate-driven commenters.  

      No, you are the one who is the name caller and have already been admonished to stop calling the folks you disagree with mentally ill.  You wouldn't know a fact if it hit you on the ass -- you have rightfully been called out as a liar -- and when it is proven you resort to personal insult.  As you do in this diary:

      A trend toward diaries and comments from an increasingly spiteful, irrational, bitter, and paranoid fringe that does not even represent the majority of progressive activists, let alone Democrats

      This is a reality based comunity.  Eventually folks will catch on to your pompous and hateful hot air blowing and relegate you to the dustbin of Daily Kos.

      •  how does that call them unAmerican?nt (0+ / 0-)
        •  I'm not sure you read the diary ... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          randallt, Johnny Q

          ... or you'd have seen this:

          Now there is a diary on the Rec List that is, while thoughtful and well-written, is simply, definitively anti-American.  And it is not an isolated case of a respected contributor posting idiosyncratic ideas, but rather an example of a general trend ...

          I think I can safely say anti-American would also be considered un-American.  The diarist not only excoriates one poster but tries to link that sentiment to many other posters here as well -- usually the posters who have pointed out the diarist's own ill-founded opinions and nasty name-calling.  I guess to disagree with Troubadour makes one un-American.

          Bleh.

      •  P.S.: (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        randallt, Johnny Q, Situational Lefty

        As Meteor Blades, an admin. of this site, in case you had forgotten, pointed out in response to one of your many offensive and pointless comments:

        You can achieve your criticisms without calling people names and making medical diagnoses of those with whom you disagree.

        Those who disagree with you can do likewise.

        I think MB is being charitable here.  You HAVE no content to your comments other than name calling and making medical diagnoses of mental illness ... especially to those who easily prove you wrong on just about any of your ill-informed pronouncements.

    •  That's outrageous. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Situational Lefty
    •  This diary is so brave, in its defense of (5+ / 0-)

      our nation by attempting to excommunicate those who criticize it, that I may have to go lie down for a while until this wave of patriotism passes and I am once again calm enough to be able to type.  One question, though: if we purge, don't we binge first?

  •  Disagree. (24+ / 0-)

    Fight the speech you dislike with more speech.  No need to kick Pluto off the site.  I respect how you feel, Troubador, but disagree.  Keep the dialogue going.  

    Bartender, I'll have a Markos Marxist Maoist Muslim Molato Moulitsas Mojito, please.

    by DontTaseMeBro on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:23:51 AM PDT

  •  The larger question is, (20+ / 0-)

    why the long faces around here?  I thought we won.

    Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

    by bugscuffle on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:25:18 AM PDT

  •  Yeah, what he said.n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    philipmerrill, Troubadour
  •  I would like to leave America too (6+ / 0-)

    so I think this diary is out of line.

  •  Saying You Want To Leave America (8+ / 0-)

    cause you are not happy with the country's direction and/or you don't want to be a part of it is far different then saying at the highest level of our government we attached two cities, including our nation's capital, killed 3,000+ people, just cause it served our larger agenda.

    I do not think the two things are close to the same ....

    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle

    by webranding on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:30:21 AM PDT

    •  I saw nothing in the diary (0+ / 0-)

      that would repudiate the Truther worldview - America as an utterly corrupt, evil, puppet play between an evil, corrupt government and an evil, ignorant citizenry.

      I can haz rashunality?

      by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:38:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, let's ban the author of any diary... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Johnny Q

        ...that does not specifically denounce Truthers and specifically praise Barack Obama.

        That's show the world what this site stands for!

        Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House. - Bob Herbert

        by GreenSooner on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 08:00:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Once again, you seem to be totally missing (0+ / 0-)

          the common sense principle that diaries on Daily Kos have to be, unless totally innocuous, at least relevant and supportive of the purposes of Daily Kos.  You're basically defending the Freeping of this site by Naderites.

          I can haz rashunality?

          by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 08:24:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sorry, there's simply no such rule. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TracieLynn, Johnny Q

            There are different ways to organize a discussion.

            An analogy:  The House of Representatives, for example, has a rule requiring that amendments be germane.  The Senate does not.

            We are, in this regard, more like the Senate than the House. You may not like that; I do. Either way, that's the way this site works.  There is no rule against diaries that do not fit your extraordinarily narrow construction of what this site is about (which would also ban pooty diaries, for what it's worth).  

            As people who complain about this site are often told, if you want a site like that, go start another one!

            Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House. - Bob Herbert

            by GreenSooner on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 08:36:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  The question, though, is whether (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      webranding, Troubadour, athensga
      they're distasteful enough that we don't those views held out as representative of the grassroots (D) base (which is how Markos wants the site positioned).

      I think it's reasonable to argue that "I hate America and I'm leaving" is so douchey that we want to preempt MSM or CW generators more generally from linking juvenile idiocy like that w/ DKos.

      We are building a team that is continuously being built. - Sarah Palin

      by burrow owl on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:39:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hey I Got No Problem With The Debate (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        burrow owl

        I tend to think I disagree with you. But if we agreed on every single thing wouldn't that be (A) Kind of sad and (B) not a lot of fun :).

        "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle

        by webranding on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:45:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Wrong (0+ / 0-)

        Truthers weren't banned merely because they look bad. Nor does kos prevent people who aren't part of the grassroots (D) base from posting here (I know I'm not the only registered Independent Kossack).

        Truthers were banned because they were incredibly disruptive and peddling in lies.

        Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House. - Bob Herbert

        by GreenSooner on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 08:02:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'm not sure banning is in order, (15+ / 0-)
    but "I hate America and I'm leaving" is a quintessentially dorky-15 year-old thing to say.  

    It would be difficult to ban dorky 15 y.o.'s and the adults that think like them from the internets, though.

    We are building a team that is continuously being built. - Sarah Palin

    by burrow owl on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:30:55 AM PDT

    •  Thank you, thank you (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kitty, burrow owl, Troubadour, CS in AZ

      I lost patience when I realized that one of the "founding principles" for being unable to remain an American was that our nation "was founded on genocide."  Yes, it's far better to go live in one of those nations that was founded peacefully.  Perhaps Liberia, which was created explicitly for ex-slaves to have a chance at freedom, and has become known the world over for its peace-loving civil wars.

      Also of interest was the widespread agreement that the US will "certainly" split into multiple separate countries within the next 50 years.  Why this future seems more likely today than it did twenty or forty years ago is beyond me, but then again, I don't have think-tank friends.

    •  How is it any different, in principle, than CT? (5+ / 0-)

      Both would serve to marginalize this blog as a safe haven for the lunatic fringe. If CT is unacceptable, then surely anti-American sentiments would be equally unacceptable.

      http://democratictribune.com/

      by Democratic Tribune on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:57:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  CTs are not unaceptable, Truthers are (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        burrow owl, TracieLynn, Johnny Q

        At least state the site's policies correctly. There is no general ban on CTs. There's only a ban on Truthers.

        I know that a substantial minority of this community would love to see anybody they consider "irrational" flung off the site. But that's simply not the way this place works. And CTs about any number of things--vaccines, the Kennedy assassination, and so forth--are entirely fair game, however irrational they are.

        Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House. - Bob Herbert

        by GreenSooner on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 08:04:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Teen Angst (0+ / 0-)

      I agree with you completely, but I understand why people who care deeply about American politics and are members of this site would rather not have that type of diary on the rec list. I empathize with that view too. But regulars here know that it is often called the Wreck List for a reason. That won't change, and I doubt Kos is going to purge anti-American diaries as a general rule like he did the CT diaries. It's too fuzzy a line to enforce, for one thing.

  •  I would LOVE to debate an Anti-American. (0+ / 0-)

    That stuff is exciting to me.  Drama!  And I bet dramatic threads are the most widely read of all.

    Such a person and a philosophy would get ripped to shreds intellectually by so many people so fast that other Anti-Americans reading could very well start to rethink their positions.

    So it's positive all the way around.  (Threats, trollish stuff and personal attacks aside).

    "Well, only two kinds of people wear red shoes; and you ain't no Spanish dancer." -- Miguel Ferrer, "In the Groove" (Tales From the Crypt)

    by dov12348 on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:32:21 AM PDT

    •  Maybe I was overoptimistic about that... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      burrow owl

      ..,person being automatically ripped apart intellectually.  That would depend on the context and the abilities of the diarist and commenters.

      "Well, only two kinds of people wear red shoes; and you ain't no Spanish dancer." -- Miguel Ferrer, "In the Groove" (Tales From the Crypt)

      by dov12348 on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:35:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The teabaggers have more than proven (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kitty, freakofsociety

      that debating people whose worldview is fundamentally irrational and based in hate or resentment doesn't lead anywhere, and just helps them achieve legitimacy.  

      I can haz rashunality?

      by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:40:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Purging diaries (6+ / 0-)

    has never been routine here, since I've been here, unless what
    is said is so egregiously awful, it needs to be smited, which has
    been rarer than rare.

    A conversation occurs, diary to diary, as angry as it can grow. The
    record of that conversation remains. The record of the comments
    remains. I don't think that's so awful. In fact, it's the opposite of awful.

    A poet's work is to name the unnameable, to point at frauds, to take sides, start arguments, shape the world, and stop it going to sleep. ...Salman Rushdie

    by begone on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:35:15 AM PDT

  •  Nah. (10+ / 0-)

    The diary on the rec list is silly and kinda narcissistic and embarrassing, but it's one diary and it'll be off the main page by tomorrow.  In the meantime it's started a polemic about the reasons we stay and fight, or move elsewhere, or what have you.  Just let it fizzle on its own account.

    Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

    by pico on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:35:17 AM PDT

  •  Ugh. Do we need another one of these? (nt) (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mango, LaFeminista, Johnny Q

    "Congress ... please tell me I don't have to shriek louder then they do to get health care reform passed."

    by Detroit Mark on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:36:24 AM PDT

  •  I'm just waiting it to metasize (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreenSooner, bugscuffle

    Oh right it has.

    Now back to the religious wars.

    Sigh

    It would be curious to discover who it is to whom one writes in a diary. Possibly to some mysterious personification of one's own identity. Beatrice Webb

    by LaFeminista on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:36:44 AM PDT

  •  I rec'd pluto's diary only for its eloquence... (10+ / 0-)

    ...and I counter-punched it with one of my strongest scathing shock and awe rebuttals I think I've ever wrote here-or ever spoke in any scholastic debate. MB once told me it's better to refute an argument than to silence it! He is right. If we silence our opposition, doesn't that make us just as equally culpable as our worthy opponents, the repubs? I'm probably one of the most open-minded people you'll never meet. I detest censorship in any form. I felt I could handle anything pluto threw out there. I'm not afraid to engage anyone in free take the gloves off debate on this site. That's the beauty of living in America. Barney Frank destroyed that woman in his town hall by "reductio ad absurdum" with his "what planet have you been living on?" retort. I like his style!

    "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

    by ImpeachKingBushII on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:38:42 AM PDT

    •  The thing is, this is a moderated blog (4+ / 0-)

      with a specific purpose, and that purpose is not debate in general.  We seek to benefit the United States of America by promoting both the quality and quantity of Democrats.  "Screw you guys, I'm outta here" is the opposite of Daily Kos - it's anti-Kossack.

      I can haz rashunality?

      by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:44:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  interesting . this "quality and quantity" thing.. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Meteor Blades, GreenSooner, TheMomCat

        ...I seem to remember the primary wars around here very vividly. In fact, I almost left over a vicious #1 rec'd diary that was leveled against Hillary that I felt crossed the line, or as you say, was "anti-kossack". Did I take my marbles and go home? No, I chose to stay and fight! And I was one of only a small handful of tu's and other users here that defended her in that entire 1,000 comment thread! Didn't throw the first d0nut and nobody laid a glove on me.

        Politics is all about debate and not for the weak-kneed or the faint of heart. Without vigorous debate, it would be impossible to accomplish any progressive goal-or pass any form of legislation at all. The repubs use the THREAT of filibuster. If only they knew how close they are to realizing that reality. I don't think Harry the Conciliator has the guts to make them keep that threat.

        It was stated down-thread that a good debate may convince others who haven't made-up their minds one way or the other. One thing's for sure: in silencing that debate we'll never know on whose side anyone stands. The heat of debate separates the wheat from the chaff. Now that's quality for you!

        Senator Enzi, who is a member of the Gang of 6, confessed the other day that he had no sincere intention to change the HC system. I wonder had Obama not had the wisdom and foresight to see that he belonged on that team, had we ever known the truth of the matter, that Enzi is just like the rest of the obstructionist repubs? Debate seems to reveal the awful truths, and shows the true character of the ones we call friends and foes alike, both here on dkos and in the trenches of the beltway.

        "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

        by ImpeachKingBushII on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:19:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Total misunderstanding. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          freakofsociety, RyanBTC, athensga

          Daily Kos has a specific set of objectives, and the debate here is about how to achieve those objectives.  People who are not even on board with our agenda cannot contribute meaningfully to a debate about how to see that agenda succeed.  This is part of why arguing with teabaggers is pointless - they don't regard healthcare as being a legitimate goal, so they don't care what facts say is the best way to achieve it.  Someone who considers the United States of America an inherently evil, unworthy country full of evil, ignorant vermin is not going to benefit a discussion about how to save this country.  It is not helpful to argue principle in the face of the simple fact that this site will be ineffective if it doesn't stick to its purpose.

          I can haz rashunality?

          by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:31:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  finally. something we can all agree on... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TheMomCat, TracieLynn

            "This is part of why arguing with teabaggers is pointless - they don't regard healthcare as being a legitimate goal, so they don't care what facts say is the best way to achieve it."

            I'm not going to belabor the point. Debate is "the kitchen light that causes the cockroaches to scurry back to their dark lairs".

            One of my favorite quotes from one of my childhood idols, succinctly and with stark clarity says it all very well(to me anyway):
            snip

            "Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.

            I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House. Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss."

            Patrick Henry of VA. "Give me liberty or give me death" speech. March 23, 1775.

            "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

            by ImpeachKingBushII on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:58:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  How many visitors read your scathing rebuttal (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      askew, freakofsociety, Troubadour

      verses the ones who just glanced at the recommended diary and had further proof that liberals hate America?

      Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed. Blaise Pascal

      by Kitty on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:21:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  but... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Meteor Blades, TheMomCat, TracieLynn

        ...do you judge all people by the actions of a few? Yes? No? Or do you judge people and their values based on their own merits?

        Anyone who's been around here for a few years can attest to the fact that nothing we could ever say or do would ever assuage the vitriol the repubs like Bill 'O have towards us. It's a "catch 22" of sorts that we'll never win any debate with mental weaklings, whose only arrows in their quiver are fear and hyperbole, like him or Beck or Limbaugh. If I worried about what others thought of me, I'd probably have good reason to temper my remarks, to tenderize them so they are soft to the palate and sweeten them so they don't offend the stomach. But that would be disengenuous, if not wholly intellectually dishonest.

        "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

        by ImpeachKingBushII on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:37:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I recced this - (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Im a frayed knot

    not because I agree with purging, but because the dialog needs to continue, and there needs to be counterweight to Pluto's argument.  Like K9k did, and I recced his too.

  •  I wonder if KOSSAKS are just (6+ / 0-)

    exhausted this week. I hope so. There are more irrelevant diaries this weekend than usual. Some diaries are just for attention with absolutely no information at all. One diary actually had no words at all!  Kinda cute, but a turnoff from serious debate.  

    I am worried that KOS will become a boring place to hang out, where members compete to see who can get recced by using shock value and cuteness rather than relevant political debate.

  •  This is my home.... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour, athensga, bamabikeguy

    ..and I am pissed too.  
    When I google Fox News Lies this is what I get:

     Results 1 - 10 of about 3,690,000 for fox news lies. (0.13 seconds)

    It is a testament to our collective conscience that we allow this to continue without concerted pushback.
    We should be ridiculing Faux Noise and their minions at every turn, developing viral emails of truth outlining each and every instance of their lies to the public. I'm not a great diarist, but this diary would be very helpful if anyone has notion to do so. I tell everyone I know that FN lies all the time. Over and over, just like Faux Noise does.
    I copy the case where FN was allowed to lie in their news casts and send it reply all to each hateful RRW email out there.

    Not leaving the country.

    Whatever the Repuglicans say, the opposite is the truth .

    by MariaWr on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:39:46 AM PDT

  •  my 12-year-old (6+ / 0-)

    announced she was done with us on Friday night and was running away...packed her favorite stuffed animal in a bag, and then thought better of it.

    Should I have booted her out anyway and changed the locks?

    I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's. - Mark Twain

    by route66 on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:39:51 AM PDT

    •  So now Kossacks have to be coddled like children? (4+ / 0-)

      Funny, I thought we were the adults in the discussion.

      I can haz rashunality?

      by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:46:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well put, Troubadour...very well put... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        freakofsociety, Troubadour, debit

        Should we tolerate every tantrum thrown by a so-called Kossack every time he doesn't get his way?

        Free speech on this site is not an absolute. It already bans CT diaries and those who propagate them. Anti-American diaries are just as bad, in my estimation.

        •  Ultimately it's the same thing. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          athensga

          Many of the same people I see spewing this kind of despicable garbage I've also seen in threads about Afghanistan running right up to the edge of Trutherism, but then become coy out of prudence.  It wouldn't surprise me if everyone banned as a Truther just came back under a sock puppet.  And let's face it, some of those people are pretty damn eloquent, and can bury you in facts, however non-credible or irrational their interpretations are.  That's what makes denying them a platform important to a constructive debate.

          I can haz rashunality?

          by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:37:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Well I Pulled That At About The Same Age (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      burrow owl

      When I got home, and we lived in a rural and very safe place, the doors were in fact locked. Sleep on the driveway for one night caused to me think I had it pretty darn good.

      BTW: When I said I wanted to get one ear pierced by father said, "Fine Tommy, just be willing to sleep in your car until the hole grows shut." I didn't get my ear pierced.

      "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle

      by webranding on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:47:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think every kid does that. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      athensga

      They make a grand pronouncement that they are about to flounce off AND THEN YOU'LL BE SORRY!

      Here's the thing.  Adults generally don't do this.  If I'm in a situation that has become so toxic that I must get out, I just leave.  

      I don't see the benefit to the community in a flouncing off announcement, whether it's a GBCW post leaving DK or a GBCA post leaving America.  Because frankly, we probably won't be sorry.  

  •  How do you feel about (7+ / 0-)

    the young men who chose Canada over the draft during the Vietnam War?
    Do you consider them bad Americans, perhaps even traitors to their country?
    Just curious.

    •  This has nothing to do with refugees. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      burrow owl, freakofsociety, debit

      The diary in question didn't say the diarist was leaving merely to escape something, but as a statement of inherent rejection of this country.

      I can haz rashunality?

      by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:47:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  huh? (4+ / 0-)

        I wasn't equating them to refugees and my question has nothing to do with refugees.
        I was asking whether the Diarist considers their actions unpatriotic - or as you put it, a "rejection of this country."
        And I'm not making a judgment one way or the other - just asking where this act would fall in the Diarist's belief in fighting for the preservation of the America the Diarist would like to maintain.
        That's all.
        Seems like an on-topic question to me.

        •  I don't see how it's on-topic. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          athensga

          There is no relationship between people moving to another country to avoid the real possibility of immediate physical danger vs. someone deciding that they hate a country and its people, that it's not worthy of their presence, and therefore not only are they going to leave, but they're going to post a great big middle-finger diary to that country and everyone who loves it.  Now, it's a very simple question: Do you think this blog has a purpose, or is it just some forum for anyone to say anything?

          I can haz rashunality?

          by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:41:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What was the physical danger? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TracieLynn, barbara318

            Do you mean getting arrested and jailed for following one's conscience?
            When I politely refused the my government's offer to send me to Southeast Asia, I was called a traitor and informed that I was giving the finger to America.
            Funny how these things come full circle.

    •  Excellent Question (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wbramh, Johnny Q

      I think we need to be a bit careful about flinging around accusations of "un-American" behavior.

      Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House. - Bob Herbert

      by GreenSooner on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 08:08:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  All that the Pluto diary (8+ / 0-)

    proved is that we have a bunch of simple-minded people here who complain so much about our country that they don't think at all about how fucked up EVERY country is, albeit in their own ways. This is no surprise though. If there are 50 liberal positions (say), and you disagree with any of them, do not write your view on this site when the topic comes up, because you will be labeled a heretic (known as a troll) by the purists. Around here, to be true blue, for some people you have to be 50-for-50. And anybody that is so mindless as to go along with the crowd on every single issue is not using their head. But IMO the majority of people here are pretty balanced in their approach and that's what makes this a great site.

    I'm in the pro-Obama wing of the Democratic Party.

    by doc2 on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:42:32 AM PDT

  •  Geez! missed another kerfuffle, I take it? (9+ / 0-)

    Photobucket

    "He's like any other president -- he's a politician and he's got to do what politicians do." Rev. Jeremiah Wright

    by PhillyGal on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:49:16 AM PDT

  •  If not, we need to start South bashing (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour, marsanges

    because that's the only way to get this kind of resentment refocused on something that doesn't attack the whole country.

    "I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!" - Carl Brutananadilewski

    by Hand Plucked King on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 05:53:39 AM PDT

  •  Re: Banning as answer to despair (9+ / 0-)

    How is that constructive or compassionate?

    The conservatives would love to pack Pluto's bags, even lend flyer miles for the plane ticket.

    I'm not sure why I should concur.

  •  Troubadour (4+ / 0-)

    I know it's tough for you to embrace things outside of your own logic, but if you want everyone to accept you as you are, you're going to have to at least refrain from the abuse you heap on people that don't always walk on your particular path.

    Take a walk or something instead.

    This 'Wait' has almost always meant 'Never.'

    by Burned on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:00:33 AM PDT

  •  This is Ridiculous (17+ / 0-)

    I did not agree with Pluto's ultimate decision for his own life and much of the reasoning that underlie it, but respect that it is his right to speak his mind -- for reasons not the least of which is that he has been one of the most loyal, thoughtful diarists on the left for all the years I've been blogging here and elsewehre.  Like its conclusions or not, calling them "anti-American" is knee-jerk and superficial.  Anti-American is a wild term too often thrown about since the Reagan Revolution to silence anyone who challenges the idea that America is not All That, and definitely not to the degree of her own hype.  Yet to me, the term is far more narrow, reserved for those who have committed to destroy our country, not merely seek sunnier shores elsewhere.

    You want to talk about anti-American for a minute? The idea of censoring someone's speech and doing a "purge" here because you have your panties in a knot over a diary you don't like is what is anti-American.  Agree to disagree with the diarist (and as I said, I do disagree with Pluto, even as I respect him) and move on like an adult.

    •  The fact that wingnuts abuse a term (0+ / 0-)

      does not place it off-limits to reality-based commenters, and anti-American is anti-American.  That diary is anti-American.  Plainly and without ambiguity.

      I can haz rashunality?

      by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:08:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We Agree to Disagree (6+ / 0-)

        I read Pluto's diary as the deeply saddening end-game conclusion of someone whose idealism about what life can be has been deeply disappointed by the land of his birth.  I don't hear much different in the Black community, sometimes.  Certainly, this country has been no smooth ride for the descendents of its slaves any more than its Original Peoples.  

        Many of us don't want to leave because we built this MF and figure we haven't been paid yet.  Most of us love this as our home, but despise the principles upon which the country was built and continues to operate.  Each time I go to a new country to visit, I think, I could be here, free from the yoke of what it means to be Black in America - a weight you have no damned clue about, or understand.

        And then I remember that my ancestors were dragged here (no starry eyed immigrants, us) and rather than die, we built and we fought and we survived and therefore made this place called America our Home as much as our ancestral home ever was.  Even though it's done us dirty for nearly 500 years now collectively.  I remember that, on paper, America's ideals are some of the most beautiful in the world, even if America singularly sucks at execution of its ideals all while managing to cause the rest of the world to despise us because of our self-back-patting arrogance about how special we are.  It is those ideals, and that commitment of lives over generations, that (and largely only that) recommits me to fight to make America a better place for my children and grandchildren and everyone's children and grandchildren rather than just carry my ass out and leave it up to God to sort it all (as in my non-reality based aka religious viewpoint of life will indeed come to pass, someday.)

        If you have not read Randall Robinson's book about why he Went Home (aka expatriated to Africa) I strongly recommend it.  You might truly get some understanding of what "reality based" means -- and it doesn't mean dissing everyone who has reached the place where they feel that anywhere on this earth has to better than right here.

        That's not "anti-American"  I see no evidence that Pluto wishes America ill - merely that he wishes to call himself a citizen of somewhere else, for reasons that whether I agree with them or not, are uniquely American in their idealism.

        •  All I'm seeing are excuses and rationalizations (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          freakofsociety, athensga

          and precious little serious addressing of the simple effect of the diary - that Daily Kos endorses viewpoints that dismiss Americans as ignorant, vile, hate-driven trash and America as a lost cause.  Can we be adults long enough to recognize that it doesn't matter what was meant, just what was actually communicated?

          I can haz rashunality?

          by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:51:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I Concur......what's that line "defend to the (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TracieLynn, shanikka, LostInTexas

      death the right to tell it like it is."??

      dailyKos always seemed like Cicily Alaska to me, 90% "live and let live".

      "Now if there is one thing that we do worse than any other nation, it is try and manage somebody else's affairs." Will Rogers

      by bamabikeguy on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:09:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Anti-American phrase is so yesterday... (5+ / 0-)

      I agree the term Anti-American is bogus and further - the term is Anti-American is laughable. If America turned completely for the right-wing and Glenn Beck was the spokesperson for this country, would those who disagree with that country be Anti-American? You see? The term is completely irrelevant. The arguments to be made should be based on the principles we admire, the battles that we are now fighting should be based wholly on principles - the Moyers' video that is still in the rec'd list should persuade us all on this point. See Moyers here:

      http://www.dailykos.com/...    

      WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY FOX NEWS IS JOURNALISM

      by FakeNews on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:24:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This Is What a Democracy In Crisis Looks Like (17+ / 0-)

    And I'd argue that a statement of abandoning one's country is among the most important things a political group needs to hear.

    I'd agree with banning or diary deletion where the purpose was to organize public disengagement or immigration out of the country. Clearly that violates the site's charter to organize for election of more Democrats.

    But even a strong statement of individual abandonment can have important uses in furthering the mission of the community.

    This country is at least a half a century along in a crisis of ignorance of some of the most basic truths about its own nature and about the nature of forces within it. Some of that ignorance is found among very educated and engaged people. As a general statement that sentiment seems to me to be accepted by this community.

    A political activist community that touts itself as reality-based needs to know the pulse of the people. For example, there is strong sentiment in the community to the effect that elected Democrats need to know whether the right is only muttering under their collective breath or is screaming dangerous lies from the rooftop.

    Well the fact that educated and politically engaged citizens are finding the emotion and good arguments for abandoning the country is also an element of the pulse of the people. Like the tone of the political opposition, I can see several ways it could be useful for motivating this community or possibly for bringing attention to important issues that might not be in general awareness.

    It's also a subject that's not going to become a mainstream political issue by virtue of activity level. Immigration out of the country can never be at a very high rate because we're just too big, our people don't qualify as a human rights refugees, and there isn't the capacity in the English speaking world to absorb significant numbers of Americans.

    This issue is an upside down flag, which is an internationally accepted distress signal and not necessarily any sign of disrespect.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:04:46 AM PDT

    •  Excellent Comment (5+ / 0-)

      Far more cogent than mine and clear.  I agree with it completely, and thank you for writing it.  Recommended.

    •  This strikes me as a flimsy rationalization. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kitty, athensga

      Americans who aren't ideological are not going to be impressed with the "passion" or "principle" of such a diary - they're just going see a petty, spiteful attack on Americans promoted as a Recommended Diary on the top of Daily Kos.

      I can haz rashunality?

      by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:10:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Shorter Troubadour: (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TracieLynn, Nightprowlkitty, Johnny Q

        "Most people still disagree with you...so STFU!"

        Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House. - Bob Herbert

        by GreenSooner on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 08:11:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  All you're giving are glib excuses (0+ / 0-)

          for failure, not serious discussions of how to make this site more effective at its PURPOSE.

          I can haz rashunality?

          by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 08:42:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I really think you are misunderstanding.... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TracieLynn, Johnny Q

            ...both this site and its culture, Troubadour.

            I've been around here a whole lot longer than you, fwiw.  

            And this site cannot be reduced to a single paragraph cherry picked from the FAQ.

            Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House. - Bob Herbert

            by GreenSooner on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 08:53:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  To Summarize My View (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Meteor Blades, TracieLynn, Johnny Q

              99.9% of the time this site works damn well relying on its self-policing methods.

              Given the (actual) nature of this site, that working well is more or less guaranteed to produce comments and diaries (and, yes, even recommended diaries) with which one will disagree.

              pluto's diary really pisses you off. Fine. (I don't agree with it, but I found it easy to simply ignore)

              Your diary really pisses me off. I didn't find it easy to ignore.  I think it promotes values  fundamentally hostile to democratic politics.

              But I'm not calling for you to be banned. I'm just arguing with you. Which is the way we resolve such disagreements in a deliberative democracy.

              Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House. - Bob Herbert

              by GreenSooner on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 08:56:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't know how many more ways (0+ / 0-)

                I can explain this: Debate is not an end in itself.

                I can haz rashunality?

                by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 09:07:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Debate is not the end.... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TracieLynn, Johnny Q

                  ...but it's a necessary means to any democratic politics.

                  And suppressing debate is almost always a bad idea. There need to be truly extraordinary circumstances to justify bannings and purges. And "it really bothers me" or "people who hate us will exploit this" don't come at all close to rising to that level.

                  Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House. - Bob Herbert

                  by GreenSooner on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 09:11:33 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Why don't we allow wingnuts here? (0+ / 0-)

                    I can haz rashunality?

                    by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 09:19:47 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  We do (4+ / 0-)

                      They either get auto-banned by the actions of the TU's, or they don't.

                      Kos and the admins basically don't do anything about it either way.

                      "Run, comrade, the old world is behind you!" -- Situationist graffito, 1968

                      by Pesto on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 09:35:08 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Then let me put it another way. (0+ / 0-)

                        Does this site have a purpose?

                        I can haz rashunality?

                        by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 09:39:43 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  It obviously has lots and lots of purposes (4+ / 0-)

                          To some it's for electing Dems, any Dems.

                          To others, it's for exchanging LOLCats and dog pix.

                          To others, it's about mutual support for weight loss/healthy eating, or for smoking cessation.

                          To others, it's about organizing a World of Warcraft guild.

                          And to Kos, of course, it's a way to make a living.

                          Whatever Kos intended it to be originally, it's evolved into a huge, diverse community in which all kinds of people do all kinds of things.  And I think Kos himself has implicitly given his approval of that evolution by not shutting the site down over GUS or pooties and woozles or soccer match open threads -- or by mass bannings of anyone who engages in anything other than "how can we elect more and better Democrats" diaries and commentary.

                          "Run, comrade, the old world is behind you!" -- Situationist graffito, 1968

                          by Pesto on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 09:54:38 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  The problem is (0+ / 0-)

                            pooties, GUS, and soccer match open threads don't fly directly in the face of helping Democrats help this country progress, and some diary that just says "America sucks, Americans are vile, and you're not worthy of me" getting on to the Rec List does.

                            I can haz rashunality?

                            by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 10:04:28 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  A couple of things (3+ / 0-)

                            First, if you want pluto banned, then HR his tip jar. Maybe others will agree with you.  Maybe they won't.  Either way, it's none of the Admins' business.  

                            Second, this:

                            pooties, GUS, and soccer match open threads don't fly directly in the face of helping Democrats help this country progress, and some diary that just says "America sucks, Americans are vile, and you're not worthy of me" getting on to the Rec List does.

                            You want to grind this site to a halt, and stop whatever work you think dKos does that's so vital?  I'd say making the Admins waste countless hours responding to demands like yours, reading and passing judgment on this user or that, figuring out whether this diary or that is merely irrelevant or actually damaging to whatever purpose Kos has for the site, would be a wonderful first step.

                            And I don't see any proof that it in any way hurt the efforts of anyone here who's trying to win some Democratic primary here, or pressure their Blue Dog rep to support the public option.  How does it do that, exactly?  By bumming everyone out?  You really think that the difference between success and failure on fill-in-the-blank issue that people here care about is going to rest on folks remembering pluto's diary about emigrating?

                            This was one diary.  It's a million miles away from anything the Admins or kos should concern themselves with.

                            I disagree with you on this, and think you're coming off as a martinet here.

                            "Run, comrade, the old world is behind you!" -- Situationist graffito, 1968

                            by Pesto on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 10:18:34 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This goes beyond that one diary (0+ / 0-)

                            as I clearly explain in this one.

                            I can haz rashunality?

                            by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 10:24:16 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm sure we'd all like to see (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Nightprowlkitty, Johnny Q

                            the list of the 205 anti-Kossack subversives you have in your hand, Troubadour.  Maybe we can start by banning anyone who rec'd pluto's diary, or anyone who tipped the Tip Jar or rec'd one of his comments.

                            If you think that's a productive way to "get more and better Democrats elected" then run it up the flag pole and see who salutes.

                            "Run, comrade, the old world is behind you!" -- Situationist graffito, 1968

                            by Pesto on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 10:34:31 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Your accusations of McCarthyism are ironic (0+ / 0-)

                            and ridiculous.  The people I'm talking about are the ones spreading hate, paranoia, fear, and lies about our own people, and you demand tolerance of intolerance.

                            I can haz rashunality?

                            by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 10:51:23 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

    •  Gooserock... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades, Johnny Q

      This issue is an upside down flag, which is an internationally accepted distress signal and not necessarily any sign of disrespect.

      You said it beautifully~!

  •  Patriotic Anti-Americanism (9+ / 0-)

    As I the diary, it is saying that the United States has so betrayed its founding principles and stated ideals that staying and remaining a citizen participates in the hypocrisy instead of changes it.  That one really cannot be a patriotic American anymore except to capitulate to that which is worst in American society.  It is a point worth thinking about and examining.  And it is critical to deal with it if Democrats are going to be democrats and live out the stated principles of the Democratic Party.

    While this site is primarily for Democrats, hearing contrary opinions permits the refining of Democrats' understanding of the diversity of opinion.  This site is not, however, a propaganda site for the Democratic Party.

    The 9/11 truthers were not banned because of their ideas; they presented them; the community examined them and mostly remained agnostic because there is much that we do not know about the persistent questions.  Thanks 9/11 Commission for being such a clusterfuck.

    Rather, some 9/11 truthers were banned because they began spamming the same content, the same assertions, resulting in diaries that were just a waste of  time and a drain on community attention. And when asked to refrain from this disruptive behavior would not.

    At the risk of going all Godwin here, one of the persistent questions since World War II is how exactly do you know when your political life has tipped so far into totalitarianism that the people lose control of those decisions.  I say World War II because the book that most captures this question is Milton Mayer's book They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933-1945, published in 1955.

    At what point does faithfulness in the ideas of liberty, equality, and justice require you to leave?  During the Bush presidency, that was a burning question and if you notice it was 2005 that brought Pluto to the decision to leave.

    The diary treats this community with respect; it is well presented in a way that permits dialog.

    For me, it is NOT time to exercise the purge prerogative.

    •  Anti-Corporatism is the banner to fly (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cfk, Johnny Q

      The point about 60's Vietnam being the breaking point is legitimate, when sugar and cream rock and roll broke into 10 then 50 pieces, all miffed that the airwaves were still in the control of a few (now boardrooms).

      The MSM structure is the real lid on free speech, and THAT is anti-American.  Our birth papers were printed by the colonial pamphleteers.

      "Now if there is one thing that we do worse than any other nation, it is try and manage somebody else's affairs." Will Rogers

      by bamabikeguy on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:20:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't think you were reading the diary (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      elmo

      when you were reading the diary.  Not that this is uncommon even for me, but I think you were just skimming over anything you disagreed with and didn't happen to notice what the diarist was actually saying.  It was a sickeningly bitter, contemptuous, pompous denunciation of the American people and total dismissal of our contribution to the world.

      Furthermore, this site is not "primarily" for Democrats - it is for Democrats period, but we allow others to participate who support us.  And it is ironic to use as an argument that this isn't a "propaganda site," because you're defending allowing propaganda against our agenda.

      I also don't see how the fact that the Truthers were spamming the same claims is different from the pattern I note above.  Or is it acceptable for hate-based fringe elements to hijack this site so long as their BS doesn't lack entertainment value?  

      I can haz rashunality?

      by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:04:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think you were reading my comment (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TracieLynn, cfk

        ...when you were reading my comment.

        I saw full-well the bitterness, and after reading various of Pluto's diaries over some years I understood where the diarist was coming from.

        I disagree with what it says, but my comment was to raise two questions:

        1. Exactly where do the values that the diarist was using to judge America coming from if not from stated (but unobserved) American values?

        2  How is it that one decides when it really  is time to leave in the face of coming totalitarianism?

        The second of those questions was more obviously salient in 2004-2005, but given the potential resurgence of that should the Democrats in Congress blow the current opportunity, it is not completely off the table.

        The diary is capable of having a rational response, and no way representative of hate-based anything - frustration, bitterness, despondent cynicism, yes, but not hate.  The diarist loves America but is leaving because America was unfaithful to the diarist.

        Neither the diarist nor the diarist are yet banned, so the dKos community must think it within acceptable discourse.

        There are arguments and there is propaganda; it is too bad that in the last 30 years we have conflated the two.  I don't think that Pluto is trying to manipulate you into agreement.  You are free to disagree with the logic, and given the large number of comments, a bunch of people have.

  •  Remember the Alamo !! (0+ / 0-)

    John Wayne is Anti American !!

    "Now if there is one thing that we do worse than any other nation, it is try and manage somebody else's affairs." Will Rogers

    by bamabikeguy on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:24:19 AM PDT

  •  Is this the diary that... (0+ / 0-)

    you want banned?

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    Obama - Change I still believe in

    by dvogel001 on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:27:11 AM PDT

  •  Funny how the self-appointed ideology police (6+ / 0-)

    always seem to have 100,000+ UIDs.  Intolerance of others' views is a sign of immaturity.

    You can't change the world without conflict. -- Markos

    by ZAPatty on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:38:01 AM PDT

  •  Outdid yourself on this one. (7+ / 0-)

    Good fucking grief.

    "Peace cannot be achieved by force. It can only be achieved by understanding" Albert Einstein

    by BigAlinWashSt on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 06:51:41 AM PDT

  •  I cannot disagree more. (6+ / 0-)

    Anti-American? Sure. The diarist who's leaving the U.S. makes a deeply thought-out and carefully and thoughtfully reasoned argument about what is wrong here and about why s/he must leave.

    I appreciate that commitment to principles. A trip to Wal-Mart (a sin I sincerely work to minimize) or a single unfiltered viewing of the screamers at the town-hall meetings should mortify us all. We are surrounded by idiots beyond the capacity to reason with, and they scream until they actually manage to steer the country against their own best interests.

    This country has become the asylum housing the spoiled, irrational, petty great, great, great, etc. grandchildren of the people who fought and died to create this republic. The screamers, the birthers, the deathers. The dittoheads and teabaggers. An unfortunately sizeable portion of our populace is fucking nuts. A dangerous kind of nuts. A show up at town-hall meetings heavily armed kind of nuts.

    The kind of lunatics who watched the presidency stolen in 2000 and did so much care.

    The kind of lunatics who watched as, in my opinion, based on the irregularities in vote counting in Ohio, Florida, and New Mexico, another presidential election was stolen in 2004. And did. not. care. Worse, even, is the fact that Americans voted in numbers strong enough in 2004 for bush-Cheney to steal that one, after all of the criminal shit that they'd pulled.

    I seriously considered leaving the U.S. after the 2004 elections. I do not believe that we have a functioning democracy when the populace soaks up the insane, preposterous messages of the aforementioned groups, nor do I believe we have a functioning democracy when 77 percent of us want heal-care reform with a single-payer option, yet watch as our elected "representatives," overtly corrupt and in our faces about it, ignore the will of the people in favor of the health care industry.

    I am deeply disappointed in my fellow Americans. I stay and fight because it is really my only option. If I had the stones to match my convictions, I'd have started the ball rolling to leave the U.S. in 2004.

    Therefore, I applaud the diarist and his/her thorough and thoughtful case for leaving, along with the courage it takes to leave this American ship of fools.

    "They blamed it on the Islamic fanatics, at the time. [...] That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary." -Handmaid's Tale

    by Cenobyte on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:07:49 AM PDT

    •  "American ship of fools." (0+ / 0-)

      I wish you understood that the unreasoning, paranoid, bigoted statements you're making about this country are a symptom of the problem you're talking about.

      I can haz rashunality?

      by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:17:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "unreasoning, paranoid, bigoted statements" ... (5+ / 0-)

        Now that's just not nice.

        Disagree with me, but for gods' sake don't call me names -- where do you find "bigoted" statements in there? In the anti-American sentiments?

        I stand by my comments and the sentiments behind them.

        "They blamed it on the Islamic fanatics, at the time. [...] That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary." -Handmaid's Tale

        by Cenobyte on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:21:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Don't accuse me of "calling you names" (0+ / 0-)

          for characterizing the nature of your comments.  Calling this country a "ship of fools" is exactly what I'm talking about.

          I can haz rashunality?

          by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 08:46:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  "ship of fools" refers to the (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TracieLynn, Johnny Q

            screamers, the birthers, the deathers, the dittoheads, the teabaggers and their ilk.

            And how, pray tell, do you accuse me of making "bigoted" statements without calling me "bigoted"?

            Sorry Troubadour. Not buying it.

            I can disagree with you without being "bigoted." Period.

            "They blamed it on the Islamic fanatics, at the time. [...] That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary." -Handmaid's Tale

            by Cenobyte on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 08:50:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  A person can make a bigoted statement (0+ / 0-)

              without being bigoted.  You know that damn well, and your attempt to accuse me of calling you names for characterizing your statements is dishonest.  

              Furthermore, I don't see it as valid to be defining the United States of America by fringe minorities.

              I can haz rashunality?

              by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 09:02:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Let's not make this personal, Troubadour. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Johnny Q

                A person can make a bigoted statement without being bigoted.

                I seriously and honestly do not understand the way you're reasoning this out. Bigoted statements issue forth from bigoted individuals. And I spelled out specifically what I meant -- which is "bigoted" only against the aforementioned groups and subgroups of frakking crazies.

                "They blamed it on the Islamic fanatics, at the time. [...] That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary." -Handmaid's Tale

                by Cenobyte on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 10:37:56 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Reality is tough to handle. (4+ / 0-)

    People are reaaaaaallllllly pissed off. Can you blame them? Being a Democrat rings hollow these days. Being an American brings shame and anger to many of us. Deal with it.

    "At least the war on the environment is going well."

    by spider webs unite on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:21:11 AM PDT

  •  Unfortunately for You (7+ / 0-)

    The diarist you complain about is right.  A nation founded in slavery and genocide and now dedicated to a new form of lord-serf society is -- from the beginning -- illegitimate.  I myself am not planning on leaving, since there isn't really any place else for me to go. But my government rules me by force, not reason.

    You can go on with the Johnny Tremain-ism they taught you in school.  But to insist that we not be allowed to hear viewpoints that refuse to accept even the first principles of Johnny Tremain-sim is a kind of "Truther-ism" itself.

    Front page writers here write articles about Iranian nuclear proliferation, the progress of the war in Iraq and volcanoes.  Discussion here has never been limited to the core idea that this is a Democratic blog.

    Your diary would've been much better if you had actually tried to refute what the diarist had written.  Instead you are calling for him to shut up.  You remind me of Rush Limbaugh hanging up on Mike Stark.

    This aggression will not stand, man.

    by kaleidescope on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 07:50:25 AM PDT

    •  What is so difficult to understand (0+ / 0-)

      about the concept that general debate is not the purpose of this place?  That it is specifically to facilitate progressive Democratic action to improve The United States of America?

      I can haz rashunality?

      by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 08:51:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  WTF? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Johnny Q

        How do front page posts on nuclear proliferation in Iran or about Charles Darwin "facilitate progressive Democratic action to improve The United States of America"?

        Why don't you go after the people who put up pootie diaries?  How does that "facilitate progressive Democratic action to improve The United States of America"?

        You have a very pinched idea of what the purpose of this community is.

        This aggression will not stand, man.

        by kaleidescope on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 10:48:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  What irony. (5+ / 0-)

    If there were to be a "purge" here, this diarist would be on my top ten list of candidates.

    Troubadour contributes nothing but hateful divisiveness and thoughtlessness to this site.  His charge of being "anti-American" is creepy and reminiscent of Joseph McCarthy.  If he represents what it is to be pro-American, then I truly despair of this country.

    But there'll be no need to have a purge at Daily Kos to neutralize the idiocy of posters like this.  This community has an uncanny ability to recognize pompous fools, and given Troubadour's insistence in blowing hot air as often and loudly as possible, I have every confidence his words will never gain any real influence at this site.

    •  Very defensive. (0+ / 0-)

      Feel free to address my points any time you feel up to the task.

      I can haz rashunality?

      by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 08:53:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Uh huh ... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TracieLynn, barbara318, Johnny Q

        ... what is there for me to defend?

        You are the one who is making claims that folks you disagree with are anti-American.

        There are no "points" to your diary or to your comments.  Your diary is a hate-filled screed, smearing the characters of the folks with whom you disagree.  I am responding to that hate speech and calling you out on it.

        As I said, this community will figure you out soon enough and will have the good common sense to reject your bullshit.

        You know, Meteor Blades has already called you out for trying to respond to comments by diagnosing those who disagree with you as mentally ill.  Yet here you are doing it again -- both with me, and many other places on this thread.  Because you don't have anything else.

        You really ought to stop that.  When the admins. become aware of what you're doing, you're already on thin ice.

        •  As of this moment, this diary has (0+ / 0-)

          33 Recs, 46 Tips, and 1 HR (yours).  Apparently a few people are not on board with your view of things.

          I can haz rashunality?

          by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 09:04:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  LOL ... (6+ / 1-)

            ... 33 recs and over 300 comments.

            Apparently you are ill-suited to understanding how this site works.

            As I said, I have full confidence in this community.  More and more folks are catching on to your nasty little hate filled game.  It takes a while and you're sure not the first person to play this game, but eventually the community acts and folks like you are tossed out on your ear.  Your hidden comments are already piling up, folks here are not stupid, Troubadour.

            No purge will necessary.  The community will take care of your sorry self.

            •  LOL^2 (0+ / 0-)

              I have full confidence in this community too, that's why I posted this diary.  And those 300 comments are from ongoing discussions between a core group of participants, myself included.

              Many Kossacks are sick and tired of the hateful, irrational, rumor-based drivel that is compromising the effectiveness and credibility of this site, and sabotaging the efforts of real progressives.  

              Oh, and whenever you're going to start gloating about someone else having hidden comments, you might want to avoid saying something like "your sorry self."

              I can haz rashunality?

              by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 09:18:34 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Um, no. (4+ / 0-)

                What you are doing is writing inflammatory shit that helps stir up hatred out of disagreement.

                Not surprised you wouldn't see the difference.

                "Sorry self" is simply an accurate description of you, Troubadour.  It really is.

                You are not a real progressive.  You are just a hate monger.

                •  Reminiscent of "Obama hates white people." (0+ / 0-)

                  I can haz rashunality?

                  by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 09:26:14 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Wow ... (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ek hornbeck, Johnny Q, FreeStateDem

                    ... now you're just lapsing into incoherency.

                    Poor you.

                    It's all you have, really amazing.  All you have is name calling.  That's it.

                    Your diary is hate mongering.  Your diary and comments sow divisiveness instead of honest disagreement.  Your diaries and comments take folks who are having trouble with disagreements and turn them into haters.

                    You are not good for this community.  And as I said, I have confidence this community will figure that out.

                    I pointed out your hidden comments as proof that this community has already caught on to your hate mongering.  Sad that all you can do in response is to resort to retaliatory hide rating -- in a diary talking about this site and its rules.

                    •  This is becoming sick. (0+ / 0-)

                      I see a group of people posting hateful, paranoid, and ideology-driven propaganda against the Democratic Party and now the United States of America on a blog whose sole purpose is to benefit the latter by helping the former, and your response to hearing about is to proclaim that I am "hate-driven" and "sorry."  I have nothing more to say to you.  Those facts stand on their own.

                      I can haz rashunality?

                      by Troubadour on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 09:37:40 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  LOL ... (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        TracieLynn, ek hornbeck, Johnny Q

                        I have nothing more to say to you.

                        You haven't had anything to say to me from the beginning of this screed of yours.  All you've had are insults and a retaliatory hide rating which is against the guidelines of this site.

                        Facts?  "Hateful, paranoid and ideology-driven propaganda."  That's fact?  You are a damned fool and you wouldn't know a fact if it hit you on the ass.

                        I see you posting hateful divisive diaries and I am calling you out on it.  You have already been told by an admin. here that you need to knock it off with the bullshit insults and claims of mental illness towards those with whom you disagree.

                        THAT is a fact, and I have linked that FACT above in explaining why I hide rated your tip jar.

                        You have given zero facts.  All you have is hate and smears and insults -- and no real ideas of your own.

                        You will never understand this site and you will never become a respected member of this community as long as you behave like this.

                        •  What escapes me (0+ / 0-)

                          is why someone would spend almost two hours talking hatefully to someone they accuse of being hateful.

                          Have to wonder what the point is.

                          Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. - Mahatma Gandhi

                          by NLinStPaul on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 10:08:31 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

            •  Ah ... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ek hornbeck

              ... and now you are abusing the rating system.

              Nice to see you respect the rules of this site in a diary talking about respecting the rules of this site.

              LOLOLOL

            •  uprated (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ek hornbeck, BigAlinWashSt

              for bullshit HR. Kossacks are not permitted to HR those they are actively bickering with. Take it down, Troubadour.

            •  p.s. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ek hornbeck, Johnny Q

              Troubadour, this is a dumb-ass diary.

              Now there is a diary on the Rec List that is, while thoughtful and well-written, is simply, definitively anti-American.

              Wingers write that sort of shit. Not Kossacks.

  •  I only got as far (0+ / 0-)

    as the beginning of the genetics discussion on the diary in question.  I know over wordiness when I write it, and that sounded over wordy.  Anyway, isn't one of the most progressive tenets one of tolerance?  I understand troll policy and dealing with bat shit crazy, but we shouldn't necessarily purge because something doesn't agree with us.  I'm not saying I agree with the diarist, because I probably dont, but I am noting the debate...

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White

    by zenbassoon on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 08:10:40 AM PDT

  •  Either you are in the game or you are not. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troubadour

    I saw that diary and ignored it.  Was surprised at the number of comments.

    Rather than express that frustration in ways that take us out of the game, I would much prefer people do it in ways that keep us in the game.

    This is my country.  I am proud of it's history.  I have thought about exploring citizenship elsewhere, but when I get right down to it, the only reason that makes any real sense is for some diversity of life experiences.

    I wholeheartedly support that.  We are free people, and that's part of what is here for us to enjoy.

    If I am correct about the diary in question, I will just say that is bad form for an activist site, dedicated to making our lives here better.  Progressive ideas do that, we all know they do that, and there should be absolutely no discussion as to whether or not we are here to do that.

    I would rate that diary -4 "downer".  The very last thing needed right now.

    EVERY US CITIZEN SHALL BE COVERED BY MEDICARE FROM BIRTH UNTIL DEATH.

    by potatohead on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 08:11:41 AM PDT

  •  One question? (0+ / 0-)

    I've seen this in a few diaries today, but have no idea what it means: CT? Continental Trollops? Cardamom Toilet?

    Reality has a well-known liberal bias.

    by allergywoman on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 09:09:08 AM PDT

  •  I agree with you about the existence (0+ / 0-)

    of the problem, I'm just not sure purging is the right solution.

  •  "Purge." This guy is (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Johnny Q

    demanding the site owner institute a purge.

    Purge is a word I've always associated with totalitarian governments. Like the Soviet Union under Stalin, with its Siberian prison camps. And also with satires like Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle, where practitioners of the forbidden Bokononist ritual were purged by sending them to the dreaded hy-yu-o-oo-kuh! (sp?). I'm amused by the diarist's word choice. It's so dramatic. In the hope this diarist might understand why I think this is funny, here are some dictionary definitions for purge.

    purge  /pɜrdʒ/ purged, purg⋅ing, noun

    –verb (used with object) 1. to rid of whatever is impure or undesirable; cleanse; purify.

    1. to rid, clear, or free (usually fol. by of or from): to purge a political party of disloyal members.  
    1. to clear of imputed guilt or ritual uncleanliness.
    1. to clear away or wipe out legally (an offense, accusation, etc.) by atonement or other suitable action.
    1. to remove by cleansing or purifying (often fol. by away, off, or out).
    1. to clear or empty (the bowels) by causing evacuation.
    1. to cause evacuation of the bowels of (a person).
    1. to put to death or otherwise eliminate (undesirable or unwanted members) from a political organization, government, nation, etc.
    1. Metallurgy. a. to drive off (undesirable gases) from a furnace or stove.

    b. to free (a furnace or stove) of undesirable gases.

    –verb (used without object) 10. to become cleansed or purified.

    1. to undergo or cause purging of the bowels.

    –noun 12. the act or process of purging.

    1. the removal or elimination of members of a political organization, government, nation, etc., who are considered disloyal or otherwise undesirable.
    1. something that purges, as a purgative medicine or dose.

    Origin:
    1250–1300; (v.) ME purgen < OF purg(i)er <L pūrgāre to cleanse; (n.) ME < OF, deriv. of the v. </p>

    When an old man dies, a library burns down. --African proverb

    by Wom Bat on Sun Aug 30, 2009 at 09:16:35 AM PDT

  •  Reference or link please. (0+ / 0-)
    "there is a diary on the Rec List"

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