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"Hey there Boy...how will I get people to care about this Asian carp problem."

"I don't know. Can I have some cereal?"

"Yes." I got my little boy a bowl of Toasted O's and he started crunching away, pondering.

"Hmm....daddy? Maybe you should tell them everything."

"Everything, eh?"

"Yeah! Hey dad? Do Asian carp eat bears? Or!" He gasped and his eyes got wide "our cats?"

"Oh no honey. When I said they eat 'everything' I meant they eat all the tiny little food that other animals eat. Our cats are safe."

That boy of mine is wise. I should tell you everything if I want you to care about the Asian carp problem.

Let me start with a happy story...

The death of the Great Lakes ecosystem is not a foregone conclusion. Not yet anyway.

The lake sturgeon is making a comeback after almost being pushed to the brink of extinction by a barrage of other invasive species starting with one that incidentally HAS been known to eat bears. Us. This massive prehistoric fish, native to the Great Lakes, can grow to be over six feet long and 188 pounds. It was once so common, it was harvested for its caviar and its oil was used to fuel steamboats.

Yeah.

Steamboats.

We really did that fish wrong.

And after decades of trying to keep the sturgeon from slipping off the ledge of extinction...After nearly a century of falling or stagnant numbers, this year the percentage of the slow breeding lake sturgeon increased! By a little. After decades of protections and monitoring and not fueling our steamboats with them, they have finally, it seems, turned a corner.

The death of the Great Lakes ecosystem is not a foregone conclusion. After this, and after a 475 million dollar Federal Great Lakes restoration grant, we're finally, finally, starting to give this fragile ecosystem some attention. We're finally starting to get serious about forcing ocean faring ships to cleanse their ballast water to stop introducing new species.

Unfortunately, a new threat is coming from the OTHER side of the Great Lakes. An extremely damaging one. The Asian carp have moved up the Mississippi and into the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal, and they're now at our door. Their DNA has been found past the electrified barriers designed to keep the fish out of Lake Michigan.

And, incidentally, they breed in the same environment as the ancient, native lake sturgeon.

There are two particularly concerning types of Asian carp knocking on the door of Lake Michigan.

Big Head Carp:

These guys grow to be 100 pounds, and five feet long. And they eat plankton. Bottom of the food chain stuff. It's much worse that eating bears or cats. They eat what everything else eats.  And they eat 40% of their body weight of it per day. 40 pounds of plankton sucked out of the system every day, for every 100 pound fish. And they multiply like crazy.

Silver Carp:

These guys...it's not enough that these guys jump from the water and break bones and cause injuries to boaters. Oh no...no, they also have these bizarre things that come out of their heads that filter phytoplankton out of the water, and since they're resistant to toxins in algae, they sometimes eat so much toxic algae they are also often toxic to eat. Who's going to try to eat them? Birds. And those birds are likely to die from it.

These fish are destructive and prolific and need to be taken seriously.

They're not just one more invasive species. These are an invasive species that we know, without a doubt, are a destructive force for fresh water ecosystems. They move in, and take over. And they may very well be the death knell for the lake sturgeon and many other native aquatic species.

Some scientists are clinging to a distant hope that maybe, maybe, the Great Lakes won't be suitable for their breeding habits. But such predictions are often last ditch navel gazing that never pans out, and they're made in lieu of actually taking action.

If you're not swayed by the massive environmental carnage to care about this issue, maybe you'll be swayed by the fact that they will also destroy a 7 billion dollar a year fishing industry in an already economically depressed region. Until recently, due to pressures of other invasive species, lake whitefish has been sustainably fished from the Great Lakes for well over a century.

And if you have a picture in your mind of fat white guys on boats with cigars laughing over their raping of the bounty of the Lakes, considerthat "Approximately 50 percent of the Great Lakes commercial catch in Michigan waters is currently harvested by tribe-licensed fishing operations..." tribes who have been fishing the Great Lakes for centuries. It's been a way of life for generations. Centuries.

More threats to Lake Sturgeon.
Toxic fish eaten by birds.
The bottom of the food chain sucked out of the system.
Loss of fishing revenue in a depressed region.
Ways of life wiped out.

What on earth do I have to say to make people aware of or give a crap about this issue with the invasion of the Asian carp?

Let me talk a bit about the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal...that's how the Asian Carp are getting in.

Early in the history of Chicago, the city created a waste water system in Lake Michigan. The clean water intake was set up far into the lake, and the sewage was basically just flushed into Lake Michigan. Eventually, the population was so large that the raw sewage didn't dissipate enough before reaching the water intakes far out into the lake.

Sewage in the drinking water made lots of people sick.

And so, responding to this emergency, the city devised what seemed like a great idea at the time...a water system that reversed the flow of water and waste OUT of the Great Lakes, and basically, into the Mississippi via the Des Plaines river. Long story. More complex than that...but...

For the first time in the history of time, the Mississippi and the Great Lakes shared a water shed. For the first time, Lake Michigan had a massive, one way water diversion flowing night and day out to the Gulf of Mexico. And for the first time two systems, closed for ten thousand years, were joined by a hydrological link.

Want to know how zebra mussels got to your lakes and streams in the South? Blame the Sanitary and Ship Canal. The Mississippi is basically part of Lake Michigan and Lake Huron.

Lake Michigan and the Mississippi should not be sharing a water shed.

This isn't some crazed theory by a guy desperate to save the Great Lakes he loves.

The Alliance for the Great Lakes agrees with me. And the Minnesota Association of Watershed Districts. And the Great Lakes Fishery Commission. And Chicago's mayor Daley. They all agree that the connection between the water sheds poses a threat.

“We have been asking for years to complete these electrical barriers,”
Daley said. “It's time for our federal, state, and local partners to follow through on keeping these two
great natural resources safe.”

-- Article

And they all agreed to do a feasibility study on hydrological separation of the Mississippi and Great Lakes water sheds.
" Waterways engineered more than a century ago to connect the Great Lakes and Mississippi River watersheds should be altered to stop the exchange of invasive species that can cause irreversible damage, an environmental advocacy group says.

A 106-page feasibility study to be released by the Alliance for the Great Lakes says separating the watersheds is the only way to stop the transfer of some invasive species

[snip]

Brammeier said the study was sparked by a 2003 meeting convened by Chicago Mayor Richard Daley and the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, where dozens of engineers and experts recommended “hydrologic separation” of the watersheds by 2013.

--Article

"Hydrologic separation."

This union hasn't been good for anybody and has ravaged ecosystems up and down the continental United States. Even though there are ways to end it once and for all with 100% effectiveness. What's stopping the separation of the water sheds?

Money. It's not for lack of a plan. It's not for lack of the knowledge.

It's for lack of funding.

Care about the environment?

Then care about this.

Care about economics?

Then care about this.

It takes almost no effort at all. It just takes a little attention. Our representatives need to know that this is a project that needs funding.

"Hydrologic separation" by altering Chicago's Sanitary and Ship Canal.

And since I'm telling you everything, let me tell you a story about Lake Mead.

Scientists and policy makers involved in protecting Lake Mead had an ambitious plan for protecting Southwest water systems from the destructive force of the zebra and quagga mussels. Lake Mead was a very popular vacation boating destination, and it was widely assumed that if zebra mussels were to get into the Southwest, they'd get in from there on the bottom of a boat carrying the critters from another lake. Lake Mead was the first line of defense, and from there the whole Southwest water systems could be infested.

The ambitious plan? On first sighting of a zebra mussel, drain the lake to half, and poison the hell out of the remaining water. There was no other way to keep this damaging creature from the rest of Nevada, Colorado, and California aquatic ecosystems.

It was a good plan. Drastic, yes. But could possibly save aquatic diversity and ecosystems in the Southwest.

And then in 2007, a zebra mussel was found in Lake Mead.

And in 2007 did Lake Mead follow its action plan?

No.

What do you think happened next? Imagine billions of larvae flowing from Lake Mead into the aquafers, rivers, and waterways of the Southwest and taking root.

Maybe we're too resigned. Or too faint hearted. Or too cheap.

Whatever the reason, we are not taking the threat of invasive species seriously enough. And we are not being nearly aggressive enough. While we sit here, feeling resigned about it, native species are quietly dying by the millions in a silent war all around us every day. The native life will have to adapt or die, and we'll just hope for the best...that it doesn't get around to affecting us. Or at least not so's we'll notice...because with each year we tolerate more and more the costs of fighting the effects of the latest invader...as quagga mussels obstruct pipes used to cool nuclear reactors, causing them to be shut down for days as mussels are scraped from the pipes.

And maybe we'll throw a couple million dollars at the problem here and there. But the real steps...the things that would have an actual impact in stopping new invasions...now fixing those is just crazy talk.

There is now a strand of quagga mussel shells along the coast of Lake Michigan where just 15 years ago there was nothing but hundreds of miles of sugar sand beach. Now dead loons and waterfowl wash up on shore from birds that ate toxic quagga mussels close to shore.

Asian carp DNA has been found past the electric barriers created to keep them out.

But it's not too late to stop this thing.

We know what needs to be done. Poison the canal with a fish specific poison back far enough to create a hydrological separation between the two bodies of water, set up an electrical barrier there and start construction on the separation.

We know what needs to be done.

Why don't we do it?

Why aren't we doing it right now?

Why didn't we do it five years ago?

What on earth kind of apathy does it take to just watch this stuff happen when we know what needs to be done?

Call your reps, for gods sake! (202)224-3121...Call them now and tell them to fund a hydrological sepparation between the Mississippi and Great Lakes watershed. If they don't care about it as an environmental imperative, tell them it's jobs stimulus. Anything.

Update [2009-11-30 14:47:13 by Muskegon Critic]:

Answers to Comment Questions

How'd the fish get here?

The most commonly held belief is these fish got into the waterways en masse because of a flood. Because the fish are so awesome at filtering out small particles they have been used in commercial fish farms and aquaculture to keep the waters clean since the 1970s. That was fine until a flood hit and the fish got out of their boxes and into the general waterways in enough numbers to breed.

How come they're called Asian carp?
The term "Asian carp" refers to a set of fish. I think it's a set of four fish indigenous to some part of Asia. Two of them are the nasty nasty ones which, individually, are referred to by their own common names: bighead carp and silver carp. Though I suppose it would be more diplomatic to refer to them as The Four Fishmen of the Apocalypse.

Are Great Lakes fish safe to eat?
Yes. If you eat fish with any regularity, you've probably eaten some Great Lakes fish in the past year or two without knowing it. Though, like any fish nowadays you don't want to do it every day due to modern contaminants.

Are Asian carp good to eat? Is there some other commercial use they could be used for?
Bighead carp is supposedly pretty good fish. Nice dense meaty fish, but with a lot of bones. As is silver carp...though again, they can be toxic if they've eaten too much toxic algae. The point, though isn't that there is no use for them. It's that they could send the ecosystem over the edge.

Originally posted to Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:10 AM PST.

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  •  Alms (tips) (349+ / 0-)
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    fladem, Sylv, vicki, CalvinTheBold, northsylvania, Linnaeus, miriam, Mogolori, jazzmaniac, Odysseus, Friar, importer, Guaunyu, badger, MrPlow, alisonk, pHunbalanced, madmsf, BigOkie, PeterHug, bread, Debby, Heimyankel, LynChi, tacet, bramish, bellatrys, jeremybloom, iconoclastic cat, janefordean, willyr, SallyCat, MarkInSanFran, bumblebums, mataliandy, Poika, sardonyx, kissfan, unterhausen, bronte17, rktect, magnetics, Lab Rat, djMikulec, mkfarkus, sberel, Jesterfox, antirove, revsue, steve04, psnyder, wordene, Nina, cosette, 1313, never forget 2000, applegal, HollywoodOz, Cliff Talus, riverlover, BlogDog, dkmich, MrFrost, Kitsap River, WisVoter, parryander, tomjones, JayDean, TheOrchid, Emmy, kmbo, Pozzo, donailin, Jersey Joe, rapala, greenskeeper, Fabian, sandblaster, marina, greycat, Unit Zero, Sparkalepsy, JanetT in MD, SherwoodB, HudsonValleyMark, PBen, corvo, Irons33, Simplify, terrypinder, trinityfly, Turkana, bleeding blue, cfk, jimreyn, Inland, GreyHawk, ladybug53, Ice Blue, Prison4Bushco, skrekk, FunkyEntropy, The Raven, Doodlespook, quiet in NC, Cory Bantic, JanL, Snud, Land of Enchantment, webranding, xaxnar, begone, mariva, martini, third Party please, trashablanca, BachFan, Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse, vigilant meerkat, adios, aloha and mahalo, njr, HoundDog, Gorette, duckhunter, cookseytalbott, darthstar, allmost liberal european, ruleoflaw, KenBee, dougymi, yinn, mystery2me, EthrDemon, Lefty Coaster, birdbrain64, agnostic, Crashing Vor, Bush Bites, tapestry, happy camper, OMwordTHRUdaFOG, doinaheckuvanutjob, american pastoral, Something the Dog Said, profh, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, suspiciousmind, fiddlingnero, frankzappatista, Dreaming of Better Days, blueoregon, Statusquomustgo, Zoskie, kurious, Picot verde, coolsub, Hedwig, expatyank, B Amer, Damn Frank, OHdog, Noor B, john07801, A Mad Mad World, camlbacker, milkbone, leema, mamabigdog, ColoTim, vets74, terryhallinan, jds1978, FishOutofWater, Dcoronata, operculum, terabytes, getlost, sabishi, akdude6016, Uberbah, DingellDem, millwood, OIL GUY, Rumarhazzit, Got a Grip, Desa, A Person, cacamp, willb48, Terra Mystica, Empower Ink, Red no more, sand805, jwinIL14, MKinTN, Patricia Bruner, loudoun, Devsd, JeffW, Indexer, wayoutinthestix, OleHippieChick, shanay, Fossil, Rich in PA, Wes Opinion, CDH in Brooklyn, lineatus, alasmoses, beltane, moose67, TomFromNJ, mayim, pamelabrown, boatjones, dewley notid, happymisanthropy, pickandshovel, TokenLiberal, jorogo, envwq, Seamus D, GreenWingnut, kyril, CitizenJoe, Ruff Limblog, luckylizard, doppler effect, xysea, Karl Rover, dont think, Guadalupe59, Ellinorianne, enemy of the people, multilee, Mrs M, pileta, cybrestrike, smellybeast, Darmok, ARS, greengemini, DynamicUno, bsmechanic, Michael James, Mislead, pvlb, Ohiodem1, velvet blasphemy, mcfair, jodygirl, tr GW, earicicle, Daily Activist, mHainds, Mercuriousss, dRefractor, Carlo, The Liberty of Meat, allep10, kevinpdx, kl5, IreGyre, realwischeese, Houston Gardener, spyguy999, strangedemocracy, edtastic, jfromga, bikebum, haensgen, Amber6541, xsonogall, Lazar, Norbrook, CalGal47, seesmithrun, confitesprit, marabout40, Morus, LaughingPlanet, Interceptor7, TheWesternSun, LeanneB, Melissa J, freeport beach PA, polar bear, Eddie L, TKO333, noclue, Jimmm, sullivanst, Kristina40, AJ in Camden, Grumpy Young Man, JRandomPoster, roystah, lurkersince03, science nerd, NellaSelim, Onomastic, dmet, BrowniesAreGood, sturunner, speak2me, gauchiste, Hopeful Skeptic, croyal, freesia, Amayi, firemage, BlueJessamine, QuestionAuthority, Mistral Wind, smallgal, blueinmn, marleycat, bobsc, Lorikeet, Cinnamon Rollover, Dan Gallo, Santa Susanna Kid, leftymama, blw, Flaming Liberal for Jesus, StringTheory, Conure, Tm3, mali muso, Caddis Fly, Strange New World, sorenScostanza, datasky, lincoln deschain, blue aardvark, The Simple Canadian, Anthony Page aka SecondComing, RLMiller, Edward Spurlock, jaebone, AguyinMI, PrometheusUnbound, No one gets out alive, James Robinson, delreydaddio, sabo53, misguided angel, ardisian

    Times, hard. People, starving. Foodbanks, empty. Bring them food, or donate now. (I'm on Twitter now)

    by Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:06:29 AM PST

  •  It's depressing. Here's a video of the things (26+ / 0-)

    A vote for a filibuster on the health care reform bill is a vote for higher deficits and 44,000 deaths/year due to lack of insurance.

    by Inland on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:14:34 AM PST

  •  Most people don't care, unfortunately (18+ / 0-)

    They don't see any effect on the price at the gas pump or their investment account, or on the number of job listings in the classifieds.

    And I don't know how to get them to care.

    •  Oh, I think they care. They just see nothing (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mariva, mayim

      they can do about it and they're hoping someone somewhere is going to come up with a feasible solution.  

      This isn't, as some would like to think, just an issue of money.  Hopefully there  is some solution that will not require killing zillions of other aquatic life in order to TRY to eliminate this particular kind.  The detrimental effects of any action taken to eliminate this problem have to be considered.  Will the action taken to eliminate these fish just create new and different and perhaps worse consequences in the long run?  This is not an issue that can or should be used for political purposes.  It's a very real and very serious situation where everyone needs to be working closely together to discover a solution that won't be worse than the problem.

      "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

      by gustynpip on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:25:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  When zebras hit the Columbia River (4+ / 0-)

      it's going to be a complete disaster. Just the economic impact alone is going to be devastating. The power, the salmon, the transportation corridor, the agricultural waters. This will ruin economies and eco systems in both WA and OR. It's too late by then if the public takes notice.

      "The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison

      by Picot verde on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 11:11:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I Don't Understand To Be Honest (24+ / 0-)

    I live in down state Illinois. Not a very liberal place. But nature, the care for it, well that is embraced by even those on the far right. I find that folks that hunt and fish in their free time get how important it is to care for nature. This seems to be a situation where we ought to be able to get a vast majority on our side.

    "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

    by webranding on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:19:26 AM PST

    •  The ones we don't have on our side (6+ / 0-)

      are the ones who just don't care.  They may hunt and fish, but they leave their shot, shells and trash out there.  They're the ones who don't want to be 'inconvenienced'...Well, it will be a hell of an inconvenience when their favorite fishing spot gets polluted, or the woods they hunt in get mowed down, but they don't seem to care much.  They'll keep finding a new 'favorite spot' until there's nothing left.

      These truly are the 'disposable culture' people.

      *this space available for lease if you have something appropriately witty for me to share*

      by xysea on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:02:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is a big failing of the political left (5+ / 0-)

      Hunters and fisherfolk understand the value of wild systems.  If we would make the effort to reach out to these people and find common ground, it could turn many rural areas blue.

      •  too wide a generalization sort of (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mariva

        Hunters and fisherfolk understand the value of wild systems.

        never noticed them at beach cleanup day, but I'm sure somewhere there are hunters and fishermen who do participate in habitat restoration.  Mostly I am mocked by the H and Fr's in my surroundings for my doing so. But I'm not bitter, much.

        Some 'care', but mostly they are suspicious and unsupportive of enviromentalists. Unless they hear about from some politicians they trust (Sarah Palin)...mostly they are suspicious of environmentalists because they think they are going to be shut out of some hunting and fishing area...yet grimly assent to the Big Corp buying their favorite ranch to develop for ranchettes, second homes, and ski resorts, and accept it as business. But hey, maybe they will get a two weeks dry wall job out of it, so whoopee.

           Then there's organizations like Ducks Unlimited, whose help goes both ways, preserve waterholes for ducks so they can shoot them, and rich ranchers that import African animals for hunters to shoot, sometimes remotely, over the internet.

         So I take any notion and notice of their bleating about their love for the  'environment' with a grain of salt..well, the whole salt lick...along with dems attempts to pander reach out to these people.
          But it must be done, and it takes time, mostly for them to die off so their grandkids can see what a mess they've left and try to fix it.

         On 'our side' never a lot of complaint about the giant pot farms in National forests unless they're 'Mexican Nationals'. Then it's bad, reallly bad. Of course the hippie growers never use chemicals or leave trash. Sure. They must be libertarians then.
          Bong me.

        I am not a number, I'm a free man!

        by KenBee on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 01:36:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You don't know any hunters (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          1313

          and fishermen then.

          Or maybe it's just where you live.

          never noticed them at beach cleanup day, but I'm sure somewhere there are hunters and fishermen who do participate in habitat restoration

          .

          Ever heard of the CRP?  Brought to you by upland bird hunters.  

          And how much time and money has TU spent on coldwater fisheries?

          http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/...

          Or how about the time, money and effort of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation?

          http://www.rmef.org/...

          And final example...hunters and fisherman in Missouri voted for an additional .5% sales tax increase dedicated for the department of conservation to preserve species, purchase public land, and study conservation efforts.  That is Hunters and Fishermen, in a Red State, putting their money where their mouth is to preserve and conserve.

          Teddy Roosevelt is spinning in his grave after that comment.

          •  Who do you think lobbied to tax themselves (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Fall line, johnva

            Sportsmen's groups lobbied to tax themselves to preserve and protect habitat (and have supported the tax for decades).  They have formed hundreds of organizations that enhance wildlife populations mostly through habitat preservation.  Pittman-Roberts funds have bought millions of acres nationwide to preserve habitat: who do those mocking the sportsman's commitment think bought all those coastal marshes and their associated uplands.  Often the money is simply referred to as "Federal" but it comes from a special fund derived from a tax on our gear - on every reel, box of ammo, etc. that we buy.  It is not applied to the binoculars that a bird watcher might use.  Most of those outdoor recreation enthusiasts benefit directly from the commitment of the hook and bullet crowd to put their money where their mouth is, without any effort to match it.  

            Then we have Ducks Unlimited and similar groups.  My little chapter of DU during my tenure on the "Committee" (a total of 7 guys and 2 women, over half of whom either never hunted, or no longer hunt) has raised about a million dollars mostly to buy habitat.  We are just one of dozens of such groups in my state alone.  Yes, there are ducks living in those places, but any competent biologist will agree that those wetlands produce a lot more than that.  To ascribe all that to a desire for the few pounds of duck some of us shoot each year is to demonstrate significant ignorance.  The same thing is true for Trout Unlimited (I am a life member).  I have been to a few events sponsored by other similar groups where a similar ethic is demonstrated, enough to have a reasonable basis to assert that they are all committed first to maintaining and improving the opportunities for people in our society to experience wildness.  

            And, I have sponsored a river clean-up day for years, contributing both time and money.  The people that left all that trash are almost all non-consumptive users (mostly canoeists), and the largest single form of their trash is beer cans.  Needless to say, those non-consumptive users have vigorously resisted any requirement to manage the social and environmental consequences of their use of our environment.  It's true that Budwiser put up about $750 for it this year (a fraction of what it actually cost), but the people that actually put it on are all hunters or fishers.  If people around my town haven't seen people like me at clean-up events, it's because they either weren't there or they didn't know what they were looking at.

            The important thing to take away from this discussion is that the opinion leaders in the hook and bullet crowd are generally deeply interested in the environment they experience and in what they see as appropriate environmental ethics and rules.  

            •  while you and Fallline pat yourselves on the back (0+ / 0-)

              for your good works, and probably deservedly so, (I don't doubt you), I was speaking to the generalizations on the subject, precisely such as your blaming canoeists...another way of saying 'those people'.

                 The hunters I know also include poachers (poor people who hunt and can't or won't afford the fees and license for any number of reasons), bush meat hunters, california style, hunting and fishing guides, and have many members of my family, including myself  who are and have been hunters and fishers...but you seem to be talking about Hunters and Fishers instead.

                I have family whose job it is is to precisely target your very H and F people to frame issues and structure  these land use and conservation tradeoff issues so they  will support it with money, and many of the donors for large tracts of land are rich repubs and big Corps rich people whose idea of hunting is to hire a guide who has spent his life in the woods, knows where the Elk are, takes the Hunter there, they blast it, take a picture, pay the guide, they get on a jet and take off. And yes the fees he paid and the money he gives the guides and outfitters helps fund something somewhere.

              I read F and S and see the NRA magazine and read their diatribes and claims about H and F's paying for everything, bla bla bla...self serving bullshit, coming from the NRA.
               But I'll say that that my hypothectical/protoypical/generalized rich Hunter, whose membership in DU/TU/Sierra Club helps his corporate manuvers, flys in on his Corporate jet, spending money all over, blasts an Elk ('oh the meat goes to the needy whoever..'), fly back out, finish buying that section where the guide just took him, and either attempt to develop it for real or Greenmail (another of his 'extractive ' industries-tax dollars and donations) getting preservation groups and the guvmint to buy it at the new price to preserve it....keeping x000 acres and the rights to develop them, and getting his permits to log/mine/develop/pollute his other property somewhere else...oh, and don't forget he gets to decudt the entire trip as a business expense...less taxes means the more we have to pay or do without.
                 The people I know who work these very trades speak of just such people. Who paid for that preserved part? Who does DU/TU/the guvmint/whoever buy this land from? Not 4th generation 'steward' Aunt Molly after Uncle passed away riding his horse..no, this Hunter who smelled it or was sought for the opportunity. You betcha.
                 And who do you think helped generate the fearmongering about this 'new development' leading for the call to 'do something', 'save the Whatever Valley'.  That's right, the Hunter or rather his lobbyist employees, members of these organizations. And it pays.

               So generalizations and self serving spin are just one small problem
              in resolving the dilemmas facing us as a people.

              Sportsmen's groups lobbied to tax themselves to preserve and protect habitat (and have supported the tax for decades).  They have formed hundreds of organizations that enhance wildlife populations mostly through habitat preservation.

              I can never forget the other ways they've 'organized', certainly by the lobbyists using these groups to sell opposition for regulations and pressure to pushback against the extraction industries critics. To give themselves credibility they would certainly help enable some of the good works you describe. But make no mistake, the hearts of (I say most of)these organizations are very closely linked to most everything we as democrats and environmentalists oppose.
                And while I'm laying blame, enviro's are also exploited for money and support, but the linkages are much smaller, imo, and not linked to any significant degree to extractive and anti union industries. For votes and support for political linkages for sure. And some people make a career out of it, but rich, they ain't.

                Just don't claim there aren't many agendas going on at once.

               The land trades and purchases are very complex legally and financially, so claims of the H and F's paying for isn't quite the whole picture... don't leave out the non hunting/ fishing/ biking/ hiking taxpayers when the credits roll..

               

              opinion leaders in the hook and bullet crowd are generally deeply interested in the environment they experience and in what they see as appropriate environmental ethics and rules.  

                I've read those NRA and rancher magazines, I know where the talking points are distributed, who generates them we may ask, but who pays for the talking points are my concern: lobbyists customers..
                 Blue State/Red State: The NRA and Cons have used any excuse possible to create an 'us' or 'them' attitude. Indeed, most of the hunters I know are about 50/50 whether they will make some slur/insult against 'enviros' or 'the guvmint' to my face, or if they will be too polite or whatever...so I'm not counting on their democratic do gooderness anytime soon. And maybe it's because I'm around more middle and lower economic groups, whereas if I was hanging around with Hunters and Fishermen I might see a more democratic group?
                 Certainly can't say, and won't try. Are the more repub side of the hunters and fishermen bad people...nope, hardworking and honest mostly, even the poachers and bush meat hunters. Are the H and F honest and hard working? Also can't say, but 'about the same' would be a start perhaps. But they do have the money...

              So your almost knee jerk DU/TU reaction to my objections about overgeneralizing about CBarr's initial comment is pretty indicative of the issues. My generalizations kick your generalization's asses :>

              And I'll respond to your claim that all/a lot/most of whatever that these vast preserved lands were 'paid for by your higher minded hunters and fishermen'...my response to that is with the direct knowledge that huge amounts of those conservation areas are also funded  a lot/mostly/to a high degree by taxpayers...in the form of tax deferments and tax dodges used by Big Corps funding, allowing other nightmares to unfold elsewhere: development or  extraction industry, Greenmail. Rarely...even basically never is there a corporation funding without those benefits: tax savings/writeoffs/access/PR/concessions elsewhere are all exploited to the max.

                DU/TU has had these issues for years, and has been defending against criticisms just like mine, I didn't invent it, hell I didn't even criticise them. And I'm sure they are doing many good things and more of them than in the past. Actually these are  old family arguments as well between the DU members and  everybody else, heh.

              The NRA and Tidewater repubs have done well to split working people and outdoorsmen so they can be exploited for money and votes, we need to get them back.

               And I'll take Fall Line's TR and raise him a couple of Aldo Leopolds.

                Thanks for your replies.

              I am not a number, I'm a free man!

              by KenBee on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:27:17 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  THe river in question (0+ / 0-)

                The river in question is used by about 100,000 canoeists per year (according to the State Department of Conservation) along the slightly more than 20 mile stretch where I participate in the clean up.  My assertion about who left all that trash was no generalization.  

                My experience is applicable more generally because of the light it sheds on why places like this are trashed.  There is broad consensus that the important feature of those non-consumptive recreational users that explains the origin of the trash problem is their sense of entitlement.  There does not appear to be effective punishment by their peers when irresponsibility produces such a result. I can quickly name a half dozen sportsmen's groups organized to make a similar result unthinkable to all but the worst in the hook and bullet crowd.  Again, this is not a generalization - I have challenged groups of guys I have caught leaving their campsite strewn with trash.  It is quite normal to have them respond that: 1) they are beyond the reach of most law enforcement and they can do what they want, and 2) someone else will come and clean it up.  Those assertions are true, but they are a long way from right.

      •  I think there's some truth to that (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dewley notid, johnva, James Robinson

        There are a LOT of conservationist Conservatives I know. My wife works with one. That guy knows more about Michigan wildlife than anybody else I know. He's an avid hunter and is a member of Ducks Unlimited, which is very active in wetland conservation, where he's surrounded by tons of other conservatives.

        Times, hard. People, starving. Foodbanks, empty. Bring them food, or donate now. (I'm on Twitter now)

        by Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 01:42:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  good video at link of flying asian carp (9+ / 0-)

    showing their numbers 2 years ago when headed toward great lakes.

    link

    the jumping at people in boats is painful, but i heard they also bite?

    government knows they destroy eco system, and working on preventing 3 years ago. what went wrong?

    Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Mohandas K. Gandhi

    by Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:20:14 AM PST

  •  High nitrogen fertilizer! (9+ / 0-)

    The natives used to fertilize their crops with fish.

    What would the EPA say?

    Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

    by Fabian on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:20:26 AM PST

  •  Boring. Where's the northern snakeheads? NT (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Phoenix Woman, theran, marina, rb608

    Show Dems in R-Leaning Districts Who Voted For Health Care, Against Stupak: We've Got Your Back

    by Adam B on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:23:37 AM PST

  •  Can they be converted to fuel? N/T (4+ / 0-)

    Al que no le guste el caldo, le dan dos tazas.

    by Rich in PA on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:23:54 AM PST

  •  You're going to have to do it locally (4+ / 0-)

    Damned if I know how, though.

  •  How is it that we can accidentally kill off (9+ / 0-)

    plenty of species of animals and plants, but we can't figure out how to kill off these carp?

    No more money for non-progressive Democrats from me, ever.

    by iconoclastic cat on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:24:04 AM PST

    •  It's a canal (8+ / 0-)

      All we have to do it shut it down.  Would cost some people some money, though.

      •  That's not true. (4+ / 0-)

        All of Chicago's waste water goes in that direction.  While it's probably clean enough to put in the lake, there's no PIPE.  So you can't drain the canal or close it.  All you can do is create a barrier of some sort.

        A vote for a filibuster on the health care reform bill is a vote for higher deficits and 44,000 deaths/year due to lack of insurance.

        by Inland on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:41:39 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Pipes are easy (0+ / 0-)

          Again, all it takes is money.

          •  Actually, no.... (0+ / 0-)

            the pipes would have to take water from the sewage plant in Stickney and run it underground for about seven miles by my reckoning.  It would require pumps, too, to handle the waste and storm water of about five million people and associated industries.

            A vote for a filibuster on the health care reform bill is a vote for higher deficits and 44,000 deaths/year due to lack of insurance.

            by Inland on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 05:23:50 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  But Stickney is several miles downstream (0+ / 0-)

              from the point where the canal joins the Chicago River, which is what connects it to Lake Michigan. The connection could be broken anywhere northeast of Stickney; the treated sewage would still flow toward the Mississippi, but nothing could get up into the lake.

              There is nothing so practical as a good theory—Kurt Lewin

              by ebohlman on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 07:46:08 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Can you even begin to imagine how economically (5+ / 0-)

        devastating it would be to the entire region to have the shipping traffic shut down?  This in an area that has already been hit so hard economically that it's open to question whether we'll survive.  

        There's a reason the canal was built.  And it's a big part of the reason this region became what it once was - and perhaps might some day again be.  To suggest that it be closed down so lightheartedly, as in that's "all" that needs to be done, is either heartless or ignorant of the consequences.

        "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

        by gustynpip on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:30:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Economic problems are short-term... (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mariva, C Barr, Fossil, dewley notid, AguyinMI

          by definition. Extinction and devastation of native ecosystems is a much longer-term problem. When people bandy about economic impacts for saving biodiversity, that strikes me as short-term thinking at its worst. It's knee-capping the future simply because we don't think it's worth it now. In reality, economic activities come and go. Even cities will come and go. But the effects of screwing things up and not doing anything about it will linger on far beyond the time when anyone will even remember what Chicago was.

          •  Yep. Tell some of the steel towns how their (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mariva
            economic problems are just temporary.  Sounds to me more like you just don't think they matter.  My guess is  your personal economic situation wouldn't be affected and therefore such a "temporary" effect doesn't seem so bad to you.

            "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

            by gustynpip on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 11:12:13 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, I just have a larger perspective. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mariva, dewley notid, AguyinMI

              What I'm saying is that on the timescales that it will take for biodiversity to recover, all of human civilization is temporary. It's a bad long-term economic decision to allow this kind of thing to happen, even if there would be some short-term costs.

              Also, environmentalists and/or nature are not the cause of the economic problems in that region. Human events are. Those things will eventually change, long before the ecosystems recover fully.

              •  In theory, sure. But you're dealing with real (0+ / 0-)
                people and real people's lives here, not theory.  Hopefully those actually making the decisions will have a much more humane take on the subject and will weigh the potential aspects in all areas when making the decisions

                "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                by gustynpip on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 12:38:59 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Not just in theory. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  KenBee, dewley notid

                  In actuality. It's demonstrably true that the economic costs caused by invasive species will far outweigh the costs of trying to control them.

                  You're still biased towards the present. Why should policy privilege current interests over future interests, necessarily?

                  This is the great tragedy of environmental policy in general, as far as I'm concerned. Humans, like you, are biased towards the short-term costs and benefits of their actions at the expense of a longer view. We have a natural tendency to discount longer-term costs in our thinking. But it's inexcusable to do so when we very clearly know what's going to happen.

                  •  I'm biased towards making rational (0+ / 0-)
                    decisions after trying to gain as much knowledge as possible about all possible repercussions rather than taking a knee jerk approach because it appears to be the simplest and quickest solution.  If only life was as simple as you want to think it is.  

                    "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                    by gustynpip on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 01:15:19 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  So am I. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Fossil

                      And allowing invasive species to spread unchecked is not a rational or sensible approach from either an economic or an environmental standpoint. I don't claim to know what the best way to control them is, as I'm not a fisheries scientist. But I do know that they need to be controlled. You don't have much solid ground to stand on here.

                      •  Of course not. And I know of no one who's (0+ / 0-)
                        advocating letting them spread unchecked.  The question is not whether something needs to be done, but first, what can be done; second, will it be successful; and third, what are the potential negative impacts of that action?  Shutting a canal is not exactly a simple proposition that people are not doing because they think there's no big deal about the carp spreading unchecked.  It's because a.  they don't know whether it would even be successful; b.  they're hoping there's a solution that will be less dramatic.

                        They hoped the "electric fence" or the electrified section of water would prevent them from passing through.  It has not and the potential ramifications are pretty severe and it wasn't probably a very sensible idea and wasn't thought out thoroughly.  I hate to see another emotional reaction with some possible short term success but long term consequences being taken without proof it will even succeed.  It might be too late to solve the problem and it will be a matter of controlling it rather than solving it.  But I do know I'm not going to sit and armchair quarterback about what should be done.  I'd want a hell of a lot more information than I have before I start criticizing them for not taking a certain action.

                        "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                        by gustynpip on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 02:53:12 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

        •  There's not an awful lot of commercial (0+ / 0-)

          shipping currently using the rather short segment of the canal that would need to be shut down to break the connection with Lake Michigan; there are no ports on the Chicago River (which connects the canal to the lake).

          There is nothing so practical as a good theory—Kurt Lewin

          by ebohlman on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 07:49:45 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  The Kind of Apathy Assuaged by Cash & PS2 (5+ / 0-)

    Which pretty much sums up the baseline of our contemporary overpopulated and overdeveloped world.

    tipped and recc'd.

  •  As I understand it.. (0+ / 0-)

    ...the carp was imported as a food product and they have been released as a traditional ritual for the new year in some cultures.

    If I am incorrect then please correct me.

    We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

    by delver rootnose on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:29:07 AM PST

  •  Great diary, thanks (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mariva, mystery2me

    Native Americans often used fish as fertilizer. With our luck though, even if we could dredge every last, nasty carp out of the Great Lakes and try to use them to grow crops, the toxins would probably be passed on to the plants and then us.

    But you're absolutely right: We need to get off our ass on this. T&R'd.

    This ain't no party. This ain't no disco. This ain't no foolin' around!

    by Snud on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:30:25 AM PST

    •  Naw (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Snud, mariva, dewley notid, xysea

      The toxins likely biodegrade quickly.  The carp's accumulation of toxins may well be a natural defense.  It's not common in fish, but it is certainly common in insects - there are insects adapted to pipevines and milkweeds, both of which are toxic plants.  The insects (including Monarch larvae) store some of the toxins in their bodies, making them too toxic for predators to eat.  

      Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

      by Fabian on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:37:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I remember reading a while back (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Fabian, JeffW, QuestionAuthority

    about the problems with Chicago's water and sewage systems.

    I collect old almanacs, and the Chicago Daily News Almanac are among the best, and at the time the best bound.  So I have a compendium of about 12 of these from 1899 to 1948.

    Even though I've never been to Chicago, I learned quite a bit of its history and geographical and political history.  That's what happens when you try to dump garbage in the only local water supply that's easily available, you end up intermingling water and waste streams.

    This reminds me a bit of the debate about creating a sea-level version of the Panama Canal, and the great risks of mixing species from one "different" part of the world with another, even though those parts are very close as the crow flies.

  •  hm (5+ / 0-)

    Poison the canal with a fish specific poison back far enough to create a hydrological separation between the two bodies of water, set up an electrical barrier there and start construction on the separation.

    Is there a poison that's specific to the Asian Carp? I can tell you flat out that some of the environmentalists would object to that, like they likely objected to the poisoning of Lake Mead (although, I believe Lake Mead really shouldn't exist anyway...)

    My personal belief re: invasive species is as long as there are people, there will be things growing/living where they weren't before. I certainly support seperating the watersheds but even if we did so I suspect the carp would still find some way into the lakes.

    (-2.12, -5.33)[insert pithy, yet witty pop-culture self-reference here]

    by terrypinder on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:31:12 AM PST

  •  The Chicago Way with the Great Lakes (7+ / 0-)

    has been appalling for a century and a half -- good work in your post on that history.  Remember the old commercial about messing with Mother Nature?  It's not nice.  And now we are paying the price.

    Yes, to the north of Chicago, in Wisconsin where tourism is the number-one industry, we already have been paying the price for the Chicago Way with many other problems -- Great Lakes levels, zebra mussels now screwing up inland lakes, etc.  That nothing is being done about these carp that are only eight miles from the Great Lakes now . . . well, expect that in Wisconsin, already the fourth-hardest-hit state in this economy, is going to get hit and hurt again.  

    As if Chicago could care.  But just wait 'til all those FIPs come "up north" to their lake homes and find more lakes ruined, inland as well as along the lovely shoreline of the Great Lakes.

    "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

    by Cream City on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:33:11 AM PST

    •  Chicago had nothing to do with zebra mussels (8+ / 0-)

      Blame Canada for that if you wish.  Frankly, we suffer more from the poor sewage treatment in the Milwaukee area than you ever did from Chicago.

      Progrsssive -> Progress; Conservative -> Con

      by nightsweat on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:37:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Chicago fought hard and won laxness (2+ / 0-)

        in enforcement of shipping laws, as the largest harbor.  (And you also are not up on the massive rebuilding of the Milwaukee sewage system.)

        "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

        by Cream City on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:42:17 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's just nonsense (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Phoenix Woman, Inland

          What shipping laws did "Chicago" fight for lax enforcement of?

          As for the sewage system, I'll believe it's fixed when the beaches stop getting shut down for a few days every summer as "fecal greaseballs" make their way south from Wisconsin.

          Progrsssive -> Progress; Conservative -> Con

          by nightsweat on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:49:11 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Calling bullshit. (5+ / 0-)

          Chicago hasn't been a big port for a hundred and fifty years.  It turned into a railroad hub just years after the first canal opened.  

          And Milwaukee needed to be sued to finally start a plan to control sewage discharges.  Twice, that I know of.

          A vote for a filibuster on the health care reform bill is a vote for higher deficits and 44,000 deaths/year due to lack of insurance.

          by Inland on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:54:40 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's your Chicago shit in Lake Michigan now (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            pHunbalanced

            that is the problem.  Catch up.  And fix it -- along with finally putting up a barrier in the canal to stop the carp rather than carping away at us here.

            "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

            by Cream City on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:14:09 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Maybe you can work on the St. Louis River (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Phoenix Woman

              And all the pollution in the lower Fox and Green Bay now that you got sued to finally fix the Milwaukee problem.

              Progrsssive -> Progress; Conservative -> Con

              by nightsweat on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:23:14 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  You've got no point besides dumping on Chicago. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JeffW, bsmechanic

              It's not "chicago shit", it's asian carp.  And it's not "our canal".  

              rather than carping away at us here.

              Who is this "us"?  There's one guy who has no point except trying to blame Chicago, and that's you.

              A vote for a filibuster on the health care reform bill is a vote for higher deficits and 44,000 deaths/year due to lack of insurance.

              by Inland on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:34:09 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Nope, our numbers are legion (0+ / 0-)

                but you just never listened before.

                By the way, Chicago money wanted the canal.  Well, Eastern money, really -- the absentee landlords behind the city as the trading center of what they saw as their "inland empire."  They screwed up the city from the start.  Once Chicagoans could redo it, raise the streets over the sewers, raise the trains from the streets to the "El," reclaimed the lakefront -- all to the good.  But the basic problems remained.  So I don't really blame them; they do their best with what the East did to them.

                "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

                by Cream City on Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 08:40:40 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to call it (10+ / 0-)

        the Chicago Way with the Great Lakes. All surrounding folks pretty much had a hand in it. Now we just gotta end it. Chicago merely has the dubious honor of having the one hydrological link between Lake Michigan and the Mississippi, designed 100 years ago before folks thought much about this stuff.

        Times, hard. People, starving. Foodbanks, empty. Bring them food, or donate now. (I'm on Twitter now)

        by Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:43:37 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Someone piss in your fish boil? (7+ / 0-)

      Blaming everything on this non-existent "chicago way" might be good for bashing, but not helpful otherwise.  E.G., zebra mussels not from chicago, and Milwaukee turds kept floating to Chicago beaches until it was forced to stop discharging raw sewage into the lake.

      A vote for a filibuster on the health care reform bill is a vote for higher deficits and 44,000 deaths/year due to lack of insurance.

      by Inland on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:46:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Laff all you want, FIP (0+ / 0-)

        as your shoreland erodes.  We'll still make you pay property taxes for it.

        Your attitude sadly is too typical of those who come north to plunder natural resources, not appreciate and preserve them.  

        And you're still talking about sewage systems that we have paid to fix here.  Now fix yours.

        "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

        by Cream City on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:12:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So you're proud of the tourism (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Phoenix Woman

          But you hate the tourists?  Nice.  Insult those "FIP's" who bring those NFW's (Nice Fat Wallers) up north.

          Luckily I know not all Wisconsinites have that attitude.

          Progrsssive -> Progress; Conservative -> Con

          by nightsweat on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:20:45 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, yeah, they pretty much do. Some just (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Prison4Bushco

            hide it a little better.  Then again, that's the way of every tourist area.  A love hate relationship.  Resentment that "our" lovely place is being "ruined" by the tourists, mixed with realization that without those self same tourists, we might not be able to live here and enjoy it ourselves.  Gives people someone else to blame, which we all, for some reason, love to have.

            "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

            by gustynpip on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:34:09 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I like some tourists. The ones who signal (0+ / 0-)

            when they're changing lanes on our freeways, they're fine.  It's not a skill taught to FIPs, from what we see.

            Michiganders, Minnesnowtans, Canadians, etc. -- wonderful folks.

            "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

            by Cream City on Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 08:34:45 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Keep whatever it is you think you have. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nightsweat, Ice Blue

          Including your feces and attitude.  

          And you're still talking about sewage systems that we have paid to fix here.

          After being forced to, sure.  If it's fixed.  We'll see at the next rain.

          Now fix yours.

          What's to fix?  Ours is fine.  But then again, you blame "the chicago way" for evertything.

          A vote for a filibuster on the health care reform bill is a vote for higher deficits and 44,000 deaths/year due to lack of insurance.

          by Inland on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:38:40 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Turds? Hah! Try used syringes (0+ / 0-)

        washing up on Michigan beaches.  Hundreds of them, all at once, time and again.  Needless to say, this caused much consternation to Michigan's lakefront communities.  

        Eventually the syringes were traced to a Milwaukee hospital.    

        A jackass can kick down a barn but it takes a carpenter to build one.--Sam Rayburn (D-TX)

        by Ice Blue on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 11:41:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Link? (0+ / 0-)

          Are you talking about something recent?  

          •  July 2008 (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ice Blue

            Link to story about trash, medical waste traced to Wisconsin.

            •  Not exactly (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              pHunbalanced

              I saw that as well but it doesn't support Ice Blue's contention that "hundreds" of syringes washed up on Michigan beaches, or more importantly, that it happened repeatedly.  And, as that article notes, it wasn't a matter where it was primarily medical waste, but household waste that included prescription bottles, etc.

              It's interesting to see, once again, how a discussion about a very specific problem gets sidetracked into petty bickering in an attempt to find a scapegoat.

              •  The 1989 incedent sounds (0+ / 0-)

                about right, timewise.  IIRC, this got national attention.  I lived in SW Michigan at that time.  It was a huge story on the local Grand Rapids TV news.

                A jackass can kick down a barn but it takes a carpenter to build one.--Sam Rayburn (D-TX)

                by Ice Blue on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 04:42:20 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  And ?? (0+ / 0-)

                  I asked for link as the only reference I've seen is in this one AP story about waste that washed up in Lake Michigan and Lake Erie; nothing about happening repeatedly or that it was all traced to a hospital in Milwaukee.  You're the one who made the assertion; can you support it or not?

                  And I'm still wondering what that has to do with the subject of the diary.

  •  Separating the Ship Canal and zebra mussels (7+ / 0-)

    Just a point - the zebra mussel is thought to have come over on ballast water in a ship coming though the Saint Lawrence.  You don't claim it, but it's worth noting that the S&SC had nothing to do with the spread of zebra mussels, or for that matter with the other big invader of the last few decades - the round goby - which is also thought to have come over on ballast water through the St. Lawrence.

    Progrsssive -> Progress; Conservative -> Con

    by nightsweat on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:35:14 AM PST

  •  great diary mahalo we have similar problems (4+ / 0-)
    •  In a vastly different ecosystem. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Keone Michaels

      I lived in the islands for a few years and one thing that I was really struck with was how sensitive and fragile it was.

      When I moved back to the mainland, I drove from NY to FLA when we moved to Orlando.

      Driving through the mountains in the SE I thought to myself,"No wonder they don't see it! It's HUGE! They'll never see the problems of the environment."

      In the islands it's very easy to see man's impact.

      In millions of acres? Not so much...

      Great diary..

      Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

      by k9disc on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 03:17:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Asian carp, eh? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW

    Now exactly how did they get into the Mississippi River basin?

    Have all the released goldfish come back to bite us?</snark>

    50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

    by TarheelDem on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:36:37 AM PST

  •  some dynamite and a couple of dumptrucks of sand? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    miriam, mattman

    [glum activitist]
    apparently since government is too focused on whether people are going shopping online and bailing out Goldman Sach, no one is going to care.  We're talking about institutions filled with people who don't give a rats ass that people are dying of cancer because doctors turn up their noses at anything less than luxury rates, and you think any of the "responsible" parties in government are going to care about STURGEON?  Seriously?

    nah.  just blow up the canal.  pretty much the only solution here.  since that ain't going to happen, hard to see any solution actually happen.  

    Take kids to see the sturgeon, so they can tell their grandkids what the great lakes used to be like.
    [/grumpy activist]

    Well, i imagine that getting Dick Durbin to put in an ear mark would help.  got a couple of hundred thousand to donate to his campaign?

  •  What abotu the Cal Sag channel? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Phoenix Woman, QuestionAuthority

    That's also a connection to the Great Lakes.  Or is the idea that its so polluted no carp would ever survive in there?

    Progrsssive -> Progress; Conservative -> Con

    by nightsweat on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:43:32 AM PST

  •  If we're trying to create jobs (12+ / 0-)

    One of the most obvious "green jobs" we could be funding right now would be invasive species control.  Besides cutting off the migration route, there's still a lot of work to be done removing (or attempting to) them.  Yes, it's not always fun work - but it's a job, and it actually does something useful.

    I think that I have had enough of you telling me how things will be. Today I choose a new way to go ... and it goes through you!

    by Norbrook on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:43:55 AM PST

  •  Thank you Muskegon Critic (14+ / 0-)

    I was literally sick to my stomach when I heard this on NPR.  Especially because I can’t seem to find anyone who gives a shit.  Then I thought surely MC will care and write one of his great diaries about it – and voila.

    mcfair

  •  Thank you Muskegon Critic! It is so (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KenBee, Muskegon Critic

    important for us to protect one of our real national treasures.

    "If it's somebody from The Bronx versus anybody else... always vote on the person from The Bronx."- Keith Olbermann

    by shanay on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:50:13 AM PST

  •  When flaming rivers fed Lake Erie four decades (12+ / 0-)

    ago, the dominant species was the lamprey.

    As I prepared to move back to Northern Ohio to take full-time care of my 92yo dad, my local inlaws told me amazing stories about renewed schools of crappie, perch, catfish, bass, pike and walleye.

    All those miraculous gains . .  NO, I'm not willing to give them up again!

    ". . there will be a temptation . . to try to appear constructive, or at least responsible. My advice . . resist the temptation." - W. Kristol

    by thenekkidtruth on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:54:24 AM PST

  •  yay! I'm so glad you made it through the (8+ / 0-)

    open letters to reach the rec list.  Quite an achievement on a day like today and such an important issue!  I love the Great Lakes and it is so scary that there is always some predatory organism on the verge of destroying it all it seems.  We have to make our leaders vigilant about these issues.  Where are the Michigan leaders?  Are they mia on this issue?  For living in Michigan, I don't hear a lot about these types of issues.  My husband is always railing about it b/c he has an environmental business but the general lack of awareness about this threat even within Michigan is sad.

    Say "Yes" to Michigan!

    by jodygirl on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:55:55 AM PST

  •  How hard is it? (0+ / 0-)

    How hard is it to put up a couple barriers???

    •  Like... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KenBee

      ...building a couple of locks, and feeding them water only from their side of the station (i.e., the East lock would get fed water from the Canal, the West lock from Mississippi. The idea would be to physically block the Canal, but you have to maintain access for shipping.

      Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

      by JeffW on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:51:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It needs the consensus and money (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JeffW, johnva

        to do this, why this diary was written, but there seems a lot of ignorance, some even willful, and apathy on the issue.

          This seems like such a good prospect for stimulus money. Likely years of permits, disinformation, pork barrel spending and nonsense.

         Is there a specific paln or bill or agency who is ready to do this at present?  Besides international treaties that is...

        I am not a number, I'm a free man!

        by KenBee on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 02:04:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Make them a food source? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Odysseus

    We humans are very good at decimating food sources.

    I've seen what a mess it is to try and poison a lake to rid it of an unwanted fish...northern pike in Davis lake in Northern California.

    Live bait fish used by fishermen who are ignorant of the species of baitfish they are using is a contributing problem...'minnows' can be very non specific as it has to do with an age class, not a specific species.

  •  There's no money, sadly. (13+ / 0-)

    Its next to impossible to get money for such things these days.

    For example, after a national conference on the spread of white-nose syndrome in September, bat researchers here (in Michigan) tried to convince the head of Michigan Fish and Wildlife to fund (or at least be an advocate for funding of) research into white-nose, and her reply, verbatim, was "that's just not on my radar right now. If it becomes a problem, we'll talk about it then."

    Like the Asian carp, zebra mussels and Chronic wasting, once it's here, it's too late.

    We expect white-nose in Michigan within the year, and likely extirpation of colonial bats within the decade.

    Money for prophylaxis? No. That makes too much sense.

  •  I recc'ed this (6+ / 0-)

    because there can never be enough environmental diaries on the rec list.

  •  Been calling . . . again and again. (6+ / 0-)

    And most recently when in the Chicago Tribune I saw the article about the DAN finding.  At a time when we are all talking about infrastructure and jobs an emergency project to physically separate the watersheds is especially needed: Immediately!

    I've lived through the destruction of the Lake Trout population in the Great Lakes and the disappearance of Muskie from the Detroit River.  If nothing else, and whether people are directly affected or not, this is a quality of life issue.  You state:

    The native life will have to adapt or die, and we'll just hope for the best...that it doesn't get around to affecting us. Or at least not so's we'll notice...because with each year we tolerate more and more the costs of fighting the effects of the latest invader...

    And, it is more than just the costs.  We are creating an impoverished ecosystem and are foreclosing, perhaps forever, choices we have in how we may wish to use the lakes for our own sustenance and enjoyment.  The future life span of our Great Lakes is far longer than the temporary inconvenience of immediately shutting down the connection between these wonderful lakes and the Mississippi watershed.

    Distrust of authority should be the first civic duty. - Norman Douglas

    by Fossil on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:57:59 AM PST

  •  There are so many - (7+ / 0-)

    things to care about right now, including the environment.  To me, it really all begins and ends there.  Without a viable ecosystem and a healthy environment, all the corporate, capitalist stuff is moot point.  All the discussions of wingnuttia are a moot point.  We should have been investing time, money and energy into our environment all along, but skipped it for greed.  And now it's coming back to bite us in a big way.

    Thanks for the diary.

    *this space available for lease if you have something appropriately witty for me to share*

    by xysea on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:00:06 AM PST

    •  Exactly (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KenBee, Picot verde, xysea

      That's it, everything else is moot without water, air and food.

    •  Nah! That shit's good for business. (0+ / 0-)

      Air Filters for people's noses?

      Desalination profits?

      Massive clean up actions after monster storms?

      Cha-Ching!

      Mainstream corporate doesn't care if you can breathe or not. It's none of their concern. They're only interested in your wallet.

      When a majority of Americans realize that things will change.

      There are a ton of people here that, I'm sure, believe that if food prices fail that the corporations won't burn the food to protect their profit. Or that our Corporate Sponsored Government, Gov Inc, will make them hand out the food.

      People are so fucking naive.

      Peace,
      Ron

      Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

      by k9disc on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 03:23:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Is it safe to eat lake Michigan fish? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Phoenix Woman

    I thought eating fish in Lake Michigan was not such a good idea.

    And what about the salmon.  Do they belong in the lake also?

    •  Limited. (7+ / 0-)

      It depends on species and size and goes from unrestricted meals to a recommendation of do not eat.

      THe value of Great Lakes fisheries is about 4 billion dollars a year.

      But anyway, there are some very fine eating fish in the lakes.  My favorites, yellow perch and walleye.  Used to go out with my Uncle trolling for Walleye.  He'd sell the big ones to restaurants and keep the smaller ones for family.  Tasty!

      Distrust of authority should be the first civic duty. - Norman Douglas

      by Fossil on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:13:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Forgot to add about Salmon (3+ / 0-)

      No, they really do not belong in the lakes.  I dislike them, but they were thought of as a replacement for the very slow growing Lake Trout that were virtually wiped out by lampreys.  Guess it does not matter to an angler that just wants to get fish.

      Distrust of authority should be the first civic duty. - Norman Douglas

      by Fossil on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:16:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Import Point re: "Fishing Industry" (0+ / 0-)

        This is sport fishing. Michigan killed off the commercial industry in the sixties when they switched to unsustainable sport fishery management.

        I find the idea of stocking with "good" invasives and culling "bad" incredibly arrogant.    

        "Wake up Democrat"

        by ILDem on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 11:50:14 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not sure if that's true (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          KenBee

          I buy whitefish from a family that's been doing commercial whitefish fishing for generations, and further north there's quite a bit of commercial whitefish fishing. They load it onto an ice truck early in the morning and ship it to Chicago.

          It's very illegal to mess with commercial fishing nets or the marker bouys.

          Times, hard. People, starving. Foodbanks, empty. Bring them food, or donate now. (I'm on Twitter now)

          by Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 11:56:50 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  The reason I'm not keen on Salmon (0+ / 0-)

          At least the introduced kind.  The have trashed some pretty nice trout streams in Michigan and so I consider Coho and Chinook as toxic invaders.

          Well, I like the one salmon in our great lakes, genus Salvolinus, or Lake Trout.

          Distrust of authority should be the first civic duty. - Norman Douglas

          by Fossil on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 12:01:52 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Salmon don't belong? (0+ / 0-)

        Salmon have been in the Great Lakes for centuries, entering via the Hudson River. It's true they were all but wiped out in the late 1800s, but were then reintroduced in the 20th century.

        Salmon are prominently mentioned in NY Governor DeWitt Clinton's diary written in the early 1800s.  And in F.S. Eastman's History Of New York, published in 1831. They were a source of food for many of the native American tribes, again for centuries.

        Fantastic Diary, Muskegon!

  •  When I saw the title I thought you meant koi. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ellinorianne, jodygirl

    Consider me corrected. Koi have the image of being charming. Those enormous fish, less so.

    When people say "environment" they tend to think on a worldwide scale, climate change and whatnot, and of course that's important. But your diary is an important reminder that there are more local issues as well in need of solving.

  •  OK OK Where is the MM Obama conection? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Phoenix Woman, xysea, Ellinorianne

    Tipped and wrecked for keeping me sane.

    Excellent diary and very informative thank you.

    Oh no, the dead have risen and they're voting Republican. - Lisa Simpson

    by LaFeminista on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:10:26 AM PST

  •  What can we do? Who can we call? (4+ / 0-)

    Do we talk to our Congress critters? Should I contact my governor since I'm in a Great Lakes state (Indiana--but the guv's a corporate Republican, ie, not much sympathy, I'd guess)? I'd be glad to make some noise on this subject, but where will it be most effective?

    There's a reason Democrats won massively the last two cycles, and it wasn't because people were desperate for "bipartisanship". --kos

    by Debby on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:22:39 AM PST

    •  Call your congresscritter (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Debby, KenBee

      (202)224-3121...tell them to fund a hydrological sepparation between the Mississippi and Great Lakes watershed, at the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal. If they don't care about it as an environmental imperative, tell them it's jobs stimulus.

      Or just tell them to do something to help stop the Asian carp from entering the great lakes.

      Times, hard. People, starving. Foodbanks, empty. Bring them food, or donate now. (I'm on Twitter now)

      by Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 12:52:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Look up Arundo Donax (7+ / 0-)

    and this is the nightmare in my backyard.  Destroying native riparian habitats, taking up water that could go to people and reeking havoc all over the place.

    Here is a photo of my little creek, the arundo falling around it, choking the life out of it.  It is highly flammable, it dams up streams and rivers and it can grow up to two inches a day.  It's a nightmare for any healthy stream or watershed, it's the "plant from hell".

    So many non-native species doing damage to our ecosystem and not enough willpower, manpower and MONEY to take care of it.  

    Call, stop your feet, hold your breath, our ecosystems need to be protected.  Riparian ecosystems are the key to clean and safe drinking water and clean beaches!  Billions of dollars in recreation and tourism down the drain because of urban run off, BIG AG and their CAFO's and our inability to pick up our dog's poop.

    I have a little piece of a beautiful watershed running behind my house.  Learn what a watershed is and learn how it's important too to our very existence.  I put together my own little plan on how to restore this area for endangered species and I would love to see it happen.

    Get involved, find out what's invaded your area and what is endangered near you.  And do something.

  •  I know these fish are called "Asian Carp", but (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    naus, QuestionAuthority

    there seems to be a double standard when it comes to naming malicious infestations that originate from Asia versus from the rest of the world.

    For example, no one calls "Killer Bees" by the name of "African Bees" - even though Africanized Honey Bees is what they are known as.  Also, "Japanese Beetle" is thoughtlessly bandied about, but would it be so freely said if it originated somewhere else?

    "Asian Flu" is another example.  When H1N1 was found in Mexico and was closing Mexican cities last summer, long before it spread anywhere else, efforts were made to quickly call it swine flu and then the bizarrely unwieldy H1N1 - anything but call it by it's place of origin.  However, for viruses originating in Asia, there seems to be no similar sensitivity.

  •  But but but... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Muskegon Critic

    If the Sanitary and Ship Canal is closed, rich boaters from the suburbs won't be able to get to Lake Michigan so easily.

    Where are your priorities?

    the very idea of letting my neighbors vote on my civil rights, aka mob rule, is repulsive
    -commonmass

    by bramish on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 10:36:21 AM PST

  •  So these are fmu's (3+ / 0-)

    Fish of Mass Destruction.

    Afghanistan:Graveyard to empires-It's not just a bumpersticker

    by JML9999 on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 11:04:52 AM PST

  •  They put Grass Carp in my local lake (4+ / 0-)

    We had a overabundance of grass chocking out the state run lake. Now we have a grass carp problem
    Cant win for losing

  •  WONDERFUL diary. I admire your (5+ / 0-)

    dedication and work to save the lakes. I grew up on Lake Erie where my dad enjoyed fishing and we swam.

    It's the worst thing in the world for a country to trash its environment. What amazing resources the Great Lakes are and what a shame we haven't already funded this. I'll write to my congress people.

    Thank you!

    I really don't understand how bipartisanship is ever going to work when one of the parties is insane. - John Cole

    by Gorette on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 11:28:44 AM PST

  •  When it comes to invasive species (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    miriam, KenBee, Muskegon Critic

    those of us who deal with them on a day-to-day basis - hang our heads in despair.
    I do control work on feral hogs (an invasive animal) and dozens of invasive plants.  Of the ones I work with, cogon grass is the worse.  Left unchecked, it would decimate most of our native ecosystems and turn much of North America into a pampas that would burn annually.  
    After nearly a century of neglect, people are finally waking up to threat and there have even been some stimulus dollars aimed at cogon grass mapping and control.

    Along the lines of your article, Grandpa told me that when he was growing up, the creek that ran through the middle of our farm had crappie, buffalo,and channel catfish.  I was the sixth generation on the farm, and the native fish species had been almost completely replaced, largely by European Carp.

    All of our native flora and fauna are at risk, and there is so little attention paid and so few resources devoted to these monumental challenges.
    Fl. Div. of Forestry on Cogon Grass
    NY Times on Cogon Grass & Stimulus $$

    I'll put on my glasses.... and tell you how sweet your ass is. (w/ apologies to Señor Bega)

    by mHainds on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 12:19:54 PM PST

    •  Yikes...feral hogs (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KenBee

      I was pondering writing a diary about those a couple months ago. Holy frak those things are scary. How's that going?

      Times, hard. People, starving. Foodbanks, empty. Bring them food, or donate now. (I'm on Twitter now)

      by Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 12:23:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I work on a 5,300 acre forest (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mystery2me, Muskegon Critic

        A sounder of 5 pigs showed up on the south end of our property about 8 or 9 years ago: I killed them all and we were hog free.
        About 2 years later, another sounder of 3 pigs invaded our property (also on the south).  I killed all 3 and we were hog free.
        A year later 6 pigs turned up on the north edge of our property, and a friend/coworker killed 5 of the 6 with one escaping off property: and we were hog free.
        About 3 years ago a whole wave of pigs invaded from the south.  So far this year I have shot 40 pigs for a combined weight of 4,349 lbs.  Dog hunters, a couple other shooters, and trapping have put us on track for 120-150 pigs in about a five mile diameter area - just this year.
        And we had zero pigs a little before 2000.
        On the positive side, none of my friends or family buy pork.  The wild version is much healthier and tastier.
         

        I'll put on my glasses.... and tell you how sweet your ass is. (w/ apologies to Señor Bega)

        by mHainds on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 12:49:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  What's "control work" on hogs? (0+ / 0-)

      Isn't there some way they can be hunted down and turned into ham? I know they're nasty creatures, but are they that hard to find and kill?

      "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

      by Alice in Florida on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 12:40:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  When will we learn our lesson about releasing (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bellatrys, OleHippieChick

    something to local ecosystems that is not indigenous, It was done in Australia with rabbits, and most recently with the cane toad. I live in central Illinois and the Asian flying carp have pretty much overtaken the Illinois river. There are even "redneck fishing tournaments" where the competetors can't use fishing equipment. What they do is motor up and down a stretch of river and can only count the carp that fly up and land in the boat. And the winner usually has a bunch of these nasty little buggers. There was a company who was going to try to harvest them to be made into animal food. I don't know where that idea has gone.

    It don't take a weatherman to know which way the wind blows --Little Bobby Zimmerman

    by ambeeeant on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 12:22:05 PM PST

    •  And it's not only critters..... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bellatrys, OleHippieChick, ambeeeant

      Purple Loosestrife, lythrum salicaria, one of the most gorgeous of wildflowers introduced from Europe, has become a highly aggressive species.  It's crowding out our native aqautic plants depended upon by waterfowl and other wildlife.  It's hard to believe anything as beautiful as huge swaths of these magenta-colored flowers could be so deadly.  Of course it's beauty is the reason so many gardens featured them---before they escaped. It's now classified by some states as a noxius weed because of its threat.

  •  The University of Missouri is exploring ways to.. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    djMikulec, KenBee, Muskegon Critic

    make fishing for asian carp profitable for commercial fisherman on the Missouri and Mississippi rivers.  The most successful method so far has been turning the carp into pet food.  There are processing plants in Peoria and Rockford Illinois that are grinding up the carp for pet food, fish meal fertilizer, and fish oil.  

    I've seen DNR boats on the rivers that have chain link fencing enclosures to protect passengers from the leaping carp.

    Great diary on an important issue.

    "Bipartisan usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." - George Carlin

    by duckhunter on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 12:56:49 PM PST

  •  grrr (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Muskegon Critic

    I'm so sick of non-native invasive species destroying our environment. Carp, exotic snakes, feral cats... Need to get rid of them all.

    •  And those dam Tory Tidewater Republicans (0+ / 0-)

      a genetic variant of normal people known to have caused lethal and endless trouble in England, then banished to the Colonies, where they have carried on their deadly ways ever since, polluting whole populations. (e.g. Bush family, Lindsay Graham, Rick Santorum)

      I am not a number, I'm a free man!

      by KenBee on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 02:23:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sorry, but it takes one to know one. (0+ / 0-)

      WE are the real invasive species...
      Lurker

      "So, Pal, now tell me: What did YOU do to help the least among your people?" "Well, ummm, Mr. God, Sir..."

      by lurkersince03 on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 02:36:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  ... and the other creatures can't adapt? (0+ / 0-)

    Darwinism at work.

    And maybe my scientific ignorance...

  •  Some years (6,7,8?) ago there was a big carp (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Muskegon Critic

    die off on Lake Ontario and subsequent bird die off as the gulls ate the floaters. While boating, dead carp that were over 2 feet long became navigation hazards. One of the labs in my (then) department had evidence that the carp had succumbed to botulism poisoning, the source of which I don't think was ever found.

    Circle of life, and all that. Spouse is on an anticoagulant for medical reasons, and was in the water playing with the zebra and quagga mussels late this summer. Thank goodness piranhas have not yet gotten into the Great Lakes system.

    Americans, while occasionally willing to be serfs, have always been obstinate about being peasantry. F. Scott Fitzgerald, the Great Gatsby

    by riverlover on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 01:12:47 PM PST

    •  The Piranhas in the U.S. (0+ / 0-)

      are mostly located on wall street and k street.

    •  Here's what I know about algae... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Buckeye BattleCry

      zebra mussels and quagga mussels filter insane amounts of water, and suck algae out and eat it.

      BUT! They don't eat the toxic blue-green algae. They spit that shit right out. Cuz it's toxic. So you end up with a water system that has nothing left over but toxic algae that has free reign of the place.

      This algae, when close to shore, or so I understand, is linked to botulism outbreaks.

      So anything that DOES eat it, will most likely come down with a nasty, paralyzing case of botulism.

      Times, hard. People, starving. Foodbanks, empty. Bring them food, or donate now. (I'm on Twitter now)

      by Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 02:17:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Cyanobacteria is nasty stuff. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Muskegon Critic

        It's a hazard to human health when it gets overconcentrated, in addition to the environmental problems it causes. Many of them produce cyanotoxins that are highly poisonous even to large animals when present at high enough levels (such as when they are concentrated in shellfish).

  •  A Business Proposition: Sell Carp to China. (0+ / 0-)

    Americans don't, generally, eat carp. The Chinese do. Harvest ALL of the carp that can be caught in the USA, package & freeze it, and ship it to China for food. Somebody could make a $$$$ killing.

    Greenspan admits his free market faith was "a mistake" - Reliance on self interest creates a flaw "in how the world works."

    by Otherday on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 01:12:53 PM PST

    •  see Lamprey in Lake Superior: (0+ / 0-)

      They're a major negative impact to the native fisheries on Lake Superior.  Maybe 10 years ago someone had the idea of creating a business to sell them to restaurants in Europe.  got a lot of press near the lake as a hope for the local economies!!!

      until....

      someone found the the mercury levels in the little things were way beyond European standards.  

      business idea dead!

      •  Carp are all over the country. (0+ / 0-)

        Carp are extremely aggressive when it comes to expanding their range, as this diary notes. The suckers live in thousands of lakes and streams, so why not harvest as many as possible to a willing market in China? Carp originated in Asia and folks are accustomed to eating them. Anglers could export the stuff by the mega-ton and help control a pest at the same time.

        Your lamprey story is mighty sad. I thought the lampreys came in with the shipping when the St. Lawrence Seaway opened. Anything with dangerous levels of lead or mercury or anything else harmful should never be consumed by anyone, of course.

        Greenspan admits his free market faith was "a mistake" - Reliance on self interest creates a flaw "in how the world works."

        by Otherday on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 04:04:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  When fishing back home in Iowa any (0+ / 0-)

          carp we caught was taken home and used as garden fertilizer.  No catch and release with that fish.  So i understand what you're saying.

          Most other fish we caught was either taken home for food or released.  

          •  Smoked Carp (0+ / 0-)

            I knew a couple, while growing up in Minnesota, who would buy all the carp that we boys would spear in the creeks in springtime, and have it smoked in their smokehouse. Claimed it was tasty. We once speared 85 carp in about 2 hours - fun!

            The only people we knew who fished for carp in the lake that I grew up next to were Asians - they'd put kernels of corn on a weighted hook and let it sit to the bottom until the carp came by and sucked it up. They were always proud of their catch and happily took it home.

            I guess my earlier point, in this time of unemployment, is that some enterprising fisherman might catch, without limit, all the carp he wanted, and instead of using is as fertilizer, as you once did, sell the stuff by the ton to those who eat it. I see no reason to treat carp as a waste fish if someone in China would gladly pay you for it. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there's more tonnage of carp in our lakes and streams than trout and bass combined. Vacuum pack the carp fillets, freeze it and ship it. Cha-ching!

            Greenspan admits his free market faith was "a mistake" - Reliance on self interest creates a flaw "in how the world works."

            by Otherday on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:05:32 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Man, I thought this problem was solved... (0+ / 0-)

    years ago...under cheneybu$hCo.....wait. I remember they were at a certain point in the South but now they're in the Gr Laaaaaaaaaaakes!

    Letting them get as far as they have is sleeping through national security, afaic.

    And look at the frikkin pythons in the 'Glades and Brazilian Pepper plants, and that skin-rot stuff in some Carolina rivers. All national security issues. These kinds of things require massive operations. We just don't seem to be able to do that anymore.

    And although I suspected the Army Corp of Engineers (well, who wouldn't? they screw up huge time), it was a civil engineering project.

    Grab a MOP, you GOPpers,
    Or getTF out of our way!

    by OleHippieChick on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 01:15:14 PM PST

  •  Why do you think Zebra mussels came from a river? (0+ / 0-)

    Every mention that I can find on the internet and in every article I have read in the Chicago papers say that they came from ship traffic on the St. Lawrence Seaway.

    Great Lakes Information Net

    Please update your diary with a link to your claim or correct your diary about where the Zebra mussels came from.

  •  The Dems are horrid on the environment.. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    1313, megisi

    As a group.

    Better than the GOP, but still an epic fail.

  •  This is a serious threat (2+ / 0-)

    to the entire Great Lakes system.  Ohio has a $1.5 B sport fishing and hunting industry for Lake Erie alone, which is the warmest and shallowest lake in the system, but has maybe half the biomass.

    These fish should be wiped out of the canal, and as Muskegon Critic suggests, the two watersheds should be separated.

    The St. Lawrence Seaway has done untold damage to the Great Lakes and their watershed.

    I recall from my grade school history that there was once a canal system which connected the Ohio River and Lake Erie.  I do not believe it exists any longer, but the hydrologic survey should look for other unnatural connections between separated watersheds, once again with species cross contamination prevention in mind.

    Also from history, the Erie Canal connected the Hudson River to Lake Erie, once again creating an unnatural connection for species contamination between watersheds.

    We need to look everywhere for these ecological disasters in the making.

    Republicans are like alligators. All mouth and no ears.

    by Ohiodem1 on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 01:34:41 PM PST

  •  Thanks for bringing this to light. (2+ / 0-)

    I grew up in Cleveland and was pretty happy when they cleaned things up along the Cuyahoga River to a point where it no longer caught fire. Then along came the zebra muscles in Lake Erie. Now it seems each year bring a new threat from invasive species such as these carp. Hard to keep up sometimes.

    Thanks for bringing this out into the open and shedding some light on the ongoing issue of cleaning up our Great Lakes and keeping them that way.

    -8.00, -8.26 "Fascism is capitalism plus murder." - Upton Sinclair

    by djMikulec on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 01:37:36 PM PST

  •  I'd suggest you query (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    k9disc, Muskegon Critic

    Outdoor Life or Field and Stream about a story on this, if they havenot already done one. I'd try an Game and Fish as well. Why? Because anglers will be at the forefront of this fight, since these fish threaten the game species. You write well enough; better than most. I say this as a former member of the Outdoor Writer Assoc. By the way, I'm not sure about eating Great Lakes fish; Ontario at least, has definite consumption advisories on the NY side. The fish are contaminated. Don't know about the other lakes, but I'd bet Michigan and Erie fish are chock full of toxins as well.

    •  In the Superior, Michigan, Huron (0+ / 0-)

      lakes they tend to list fish consumption based on the region where it was caught, simply because they're Big Ass Lakes. What's true for one area the size of Vermont, isn't true of another area the size of Vermont. For example, I know there's a reef that runs across Lake Michigan from Muskegon to Milwaukee and water south of the reef is different from the water north of the reef.

      I believe most of the commercial fishing takes place further north, further from industrial areas.

      Times, hard. People, starving. Foodbanks, empty. Bring them food, or donate now. (I'm on Twitter now)

      by Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 02:37:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Just a note... (0+ / 0-)

        commercial fishers and anglers don't get along, generally speaking....for a lot of reasons. Don't know how far the fish migrate in the lakes, but yeah in NJ Raritan and Delaware bay fish have consumption advisories, moreso than coastal areas or Barnegat Bay, which is not near any industrial areas ( though it does sport a rickety old nuclear power plant )good luck with those carp; we had an amur river carp show up in NJ and jump onto an angler's boat in the Raritan Canal; we are also threatened by snakeheads, all from a release into a creek in Maryland by a Chinese national who wanted to bring good luck to his sister who was ill. Snakeheads are nasty specimens, though edible from what I hear.

  •  Talk to me about zebra mussels n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Muskegon Critic
  •  I can't find the video of the guy who fishes (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Muskegon Critic

    for carp with his hands, but it is really worth it if you run across it.

  •  Question (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Muskegon Critic

    What are their natural predators? Something must eat these beasties, other than people.

    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra

    by blue aardvark on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 02:45:46 PM PST

  •  Sorry, stupid question here (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Muskegon Critic

    When you say "poison the lake with a fish-specific poison" do you mean a poison specific to one kind of fish, or a poison that kills all the fish in the lake? I am with you on the danger of invasive species, but I can't imagine the kind of ecological damage that would be done by poisoning all of the fish in a body of water that huge. I can't begin to conceptualize it. Help me.

  •  how big is the effort? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Muskegon Critic, johnva

    I saw an article saying states are waging an all out war on the carp and had high hopes of stopping it. Was that just bs?

    I appreciate this diary because so many of my native people use the lakes and their bounty from wild rice to fish of all types.

  •  Tribal Licensees (0+ / 0-)

    And if you have a picture in your mind of fat white guys on boats with cigars laughing over their raping of the bounty of the Lakes, considerthat "Approximately 50 percent of the Great Lakes commercial catch in Michigan waters is currently harvested by tribe-licensed fishing operations..." tribes who have been fishing the Great Lakes for centuries. It's been a way of life for generations. Centuries.

    I'm all for protecting environments like the Great Lakes from invasive species. I'm all for tribes fishing the Lakes the way they have for centuries, or any new way that is sustainable.

    But licensing fishing operations has not been a way of life for centuries. I don't know anything else about it. I don't know whether it's sustainable or not. But I'm not convinced it's OK by its clearly mistaken description here.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 02:57:36 PM PST

  •  This is a lost cause, my friend. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bluefin, Muskegon Critic

    Combatting invasive species is basically a lost cause. Without a willingness to devote tens (or even hundreds) of billions of dollars to the issue, without a willingness to intensively police everything from recreational boating to shipping to bait-fishing, there is no way to combat this type of plague. Ask your friends and neighbors if they're willing to pay a bunch more in taxes and higher food costs to pay for fighting invasive species. Go ahead; I'll wait. But you and I both know the answer, don't we? Do you seriously think anyone was going to drain and poison Lake Mead in the midst of a prolonged and possibly permanent drought that already has the lake down to 50% of capacity? No, I didn't think so either.

    Way back in 1998, David Quammen in Harper's magazine explored the problem of invasive 'weed' species and the relentless extirpation of narrowly specialized ogranisms via the 'blenderizing' action of our technological/industrial society. His conclusion was that we were already doomed to see virtually every ecological niche eventually occupied by hardy, adaptable, aggressive opportunistic 'weed' species. Classic weed species include rats, crows, your giant Asian carp, zebra mussels—and humans.

    This is our dreary biological future, staring us in the face.

  •  Interesting diary, but .... (3+ / 0-)

    this is inaccurate:

    For the first time in the history of time, the Mississippi and the Great Lakes shared a water shed.

    The Great Lakes last drained into the Mississippi during the Wisconsin glaciation, as recently as 2,000-3,000 years ago. Also at this time, there was a direct connection to the Atlantic ocean via the Ottawa River and Georgian Bay (bypassing Niagara falls).  

    Glacial Lakes

    Formation of the Great Lakes

    Other than that, an interesting diary.  Invasive species in the Great Lakes are certainly wreaking all kinds of havoc.

  •  What is the invasive species that (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Linnaeus, Muskegon Critic

    came to the Great lakes via ships flushing their bilge/ballast water? I thought it was zebra mussels.

    I voted with my feet. Good Bye and Good Luck America!!

    by shann on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 03:46:08 PM PST

  •  Oh well, here's a damned good recipe: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Muskegon Critic

    Ceviche, mmmm, mmmm.
    Don't know if it is any good made with Asian carp though.

    (/snark. I shouldn't really post this, I feel for y'all.)
    Have fond memories of vacations in the UP and upper LP, and eating smoked whitefish. Damn, we need to start stringing some of these politicians up by their tiny widdle 'nads.

  •  The New Lake Mead plan is like prescribing condom (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Muskegon Critic

    use to treat syphilis.

    The Department of the Interior wants boat users to wash their boats when they come out of the lake.

    In other words, nothing will be done.

    Ilegitami non carborundum.

    by kevinpolk9 on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 05:12:17 PM PST

  •  Holistic Approach Needed (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Muskegon Critic

    My home waters are western Lake Erie.

    Pretty much all of the major rivers in our region - Detroit, Rouge, Huron, Maumee, Raisin - dump into western Lake Erie.

    And with those waters come untreated sewage overflows.  

    Macomb County dumped 3.3 billion gallons of sewage into Lake St. Clair in 2008.  That water flows into the Detroit River and western Lake Erie.

    Macomb County Sewage Overflows

    Windsor, Ontario dumped 4.3 billion gallons of sewage into the Detroit River in 2006-7.

    Windsor Sewage Overflows

    The City of Detroit dumped 23 billion gallons of sewage into the Detroit River in 2007.

    Detroit Sewage Overflows

    All of that sewage acts like gasoline on a fire for invasive species.  Zebra and quagga mussels and invasive fish just love to filter all of that organic material.

    Meanwhile, massive flows of phosphorus from agricultural and landscaping use enter the lakes.  Once again, phosphorus is like a lightning bolt to a dry, windswept plain.  Invasives just love the stuff.

    Phosphorus Levels in Western Lake Erie

    And while all of this is going on, massive power plants warm the water temperatures year round.  This creates a year-round witches brew.

    All of these human factors create dead zones and algae blooms on the lake.  The water turns green and dead algae washes up in big green clumps along the shore.

    The point:  It sounds nice to think that we can just close the canal in Chicago and stop the invasives.

    And it is nice to think that if we just stop ships from discharging ballast water, we could stop invasives.

    However, there are underlying reasons why invasives love our area so much.

    We need to spend billions to separate storm water from sewage in all Great Lakes municipal water systems.

    We need strong and enforced municipal phosphorus limits.

    We need better farming and lawn care practices that deemphasize the use of phosphorus-based fertilizer.

    And if we do all of that, we won't have to worry about the ballast water and the Chicago canal.  The invasives just won't want to live here.

    We need an ecosystem in balance.

    http://twitter.com/mikeingels

    by DingellDem on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 05:45:10 PM PST

  •  Horses, armadillos, turkeys. (0+ / 0-)

    Even Native Americans were invasive species.  Get used to it.  That's how the ecosystem works.  It always achieves stasis.  Some species don't survive the changes, though.   Just ask the bison.  And the carrier pigeon.  

    Man is an invasive species.  

    Having credibility when making an argument is the straightest path to persuasion.

    by SpamNunn on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 05:49:20 PM PST

    •  Whoooaaaa.... (0+ / 0-)

      that is sooooo deep!

      Consider my mind blown.

      Times, hard. People, starving. Foodbanks, empty. Bring them food, or donate now. (I'm on Twitter now)

      by Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 06:02:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Deep, but so true. (0+ / 0-)

        Every living thing has an effect on other living things, and when they move into new areas, their effect is even greater.  

        Having credibility when making an argument is the straightest path to persuasion.

        by SpamNunn on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 06:04:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Very true... (0+ / 0-)

          shit happens, let's go smoke a doobie. Creatures invade. People invade. Bacterial infections invade.

          Man's role is to just...let shit happen.

          I dig it, man.

          Times, hard. People, starving. Foodbanks, empty. Bring them food, or donate now. (I'm on Twitter now)

          by Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 06:12:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  buuuuuuuut seriously... (0+ / 0-)

          you can't possibly be suggesting that We should just do what we're going to do without regard for environmental impact.

          Or IS that what you're suggesting

          Burn coal forever, connect the oceans to the lakes, cut down everything, mine the mountain tops...things that can survive will and things that can't...well, shit happens.

          Is that what you're saying? We should act however we please?

          Times, hard. People, starving. Foodbanks, empty. Bring them food, or donate now. (I'm on Twitter now)

          by Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 06:18:47 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  FOR EXAMPLE.... (0+ / 0-)

            let's bring this down to a smaller scale.

            I own a pond. It has catfish in it. I make a ton of money selling catfish to restaurants.

            Then I open my pond to the stream to make it easier to filter the water,

            Then one day I realize..Oh shit, my catfish are getting eaten by Giant Carp.

            Should I

            A) Close off the stream and find another way to filter my water

            or

            B) Say "Ah shit, I guess this is evolution" and leave my catfish farm open to the stream and lose my way to make a living?

            Cuz...it sure as hell SOUNDS LIKE you're suggesting B.

            Times, hard. People, starving. Foodbanks, empty. Bring them food, or donate now. (I'm on Twitter now)

            by Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 06:23:06 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Read some natural history dude. (0+ / 0-)

            Try simple stuff, like The Eternal Frontier by Tim Flannery, or Collapse, by Jared Diamond.  We can influence things, for sure, but to think that we have that much control over nature, or the natural order of things, is so egotistical.   Like King Canute, we cannot control the tides simply by wishing it were so.  

            Just wait for an asteroid, or another Krakatoa.   You will be using another iridium layer for a blanket.  

            Having credibility when making an argument is the straightest path to persuasion.

            by SpamNunn on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 06:38:51 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Okay....so....you're saying (0+ / 0-)

              that BECAUSE we'll get hit by an asteroid, conservationism is...egotistical?

              I just want to be clear.

              Times, hard. People, starving. Foodbanks, empty. Bring them food, or donate now. (I'm on Twitter now)

              by Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 06:41:16 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You don't want to have a discussion. (0+ / 0-)

                You want to argue.  

                To be clear.  Conservation is always good.  So is wildlife management.  Expecting that we can control the ultimate outcome?   Egotistical.

                Having credibility when making an argument is the straightest path to persuasion.

                by SpamNunn on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 06:46:19 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Actually, let's just cut to the chase (0+ / 0-)

              Do you or do you not believe global warming is real and man made?

              Times, hard. People, starving. Foodbanks, empty. Bring them food, or donate now. (I'm on Twitter now)

              by Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 06:45:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Ah, there it is. (0+ / 0-)

                Yes.  It's real.  Is it partially anthropogenic?  Without question.  Does anyone know how much man contributes to global warming, to a reasonable degree of certainty? No, not even Al Gore.  

                Does that mean we shouldn't strive to control carbon emissions?   Not at all.  It can't hurt.  It can only help.  The real debate arises over how much we should do, and who gets to tell us how much carbon each of us get to emit.  

                "Deniers" are, for the most part, conspiracy theorists who panic stricken that the whole climate change "religion" is little more than a wide ranging scheme to control everything.

                I am not a "denier", and I don't think that anyone is so smart that they can direct and control such a wide ranging conspiracy, although I am certain that, on both sides of the issue, there are people who stand to make tons of money, depending upon the answer that we agree on to this compelling public policy question.  

                Clear enough?

                Having credibility when making an argument is the straightest path to persuasion.

                by SpamNunn on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 06:54:23 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Fair enough...so... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Bluefin

                  despite the fact that a GLOBAL system has been changed by man, and despite the fact that you yourself feel we should strive to contain our hand in this Real and ("partially")human caused event...

                  despite the fact that a much, MUCH larger system has been altered and could be corrected by man...

                  ...the notion that we should close down a man made canal leading from Lake Michigan to the Mississippi so strange fish don't swim through is...an egotistical display of man's hubris?

                  Am I understanding that right?

                  You're arguing that it's silliness to suggest we close off the canal? Is that correct?

                  Times, hard. People, starving. Foodbanks, empty. Bring them food, or donate now. (I'm on Twitter now)

                  by Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 06:59:15 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No. Why would you think that? (0+ / 0-)

                    I think it's silly to think that will make a difference.  

                    Try the decaf, Musky.  

                    Having credibility when making an argument is the straightest path to persuasion.

                    by SpamNunn on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 07:02:52 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  168 invasive species in the Great Lakes (0+ / 0-)

                      entered through EITHER the St. Lawrence Seaway OR the Sanitary and Ship Canal.

                      2 through other means.

                      This is very simple. And it's also very serious.

                      Times, hard. People, starving. Foodbanks, empty. Bring them food, or donate now. (I'm on Twitter now)

                      by Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 07:15:36 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Like the blueback herring. (0+ / 0-)

                        An anadromous species that is expanding its range.   Simply closing the door now won't do much to change that.  

                        Having credibility when making an argument is the straightest path to persuasion.

                        by SpamNunn on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 07:20:21 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  We can't stop what's here now. (0+ / 0-)

                          We can stop what isn't.

                          If you think that hundreds of ships dumping millions of gallons of ballast water swarming with thousands of non-native species from halfway around the world into the Great Lakes isn't accelerating the introduction of Aquatic Invasive Species...

                          ...well...I'm not sure what else I can say.

                          Times, hard. People, starving. Foodbanks, empty. Bring them food, or donate now. (I'm on Twitter now)

                          by Muskegon Critic on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 08:31:25 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

  •  And the fuckers' meat is poisonous. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Muskegon Critic

    Damn.

    BTW: one defensive measure is to breed them in a fishery, then sterilize males and release the sterilized males.

    This is marginally effective but it can stop a population explosion.

    The sterilized males cause damage. But they prevent a targeted fraction of the females from breeding.

    These species are not 50:50 for gender, so effectiveness varies with the ratio.

    Angry White Males + Personality Disorder delusionals + sane Pro-Lifers =EQ= The GOPer Base

    by vets74 on Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 06:25:32 PM PST

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