Tomorrow is the first anniversary of the first diary I wrote under this, my second Daily Kos home account. I would like to end this year by banging a gong that I have been beating for a long time -- and inviting readers to add their joyful agreement (or scornful demurral) to the comments section.
We have been told that Hunter is working avidly on the long-awaited, sure to be hated until it is loved, interface for Daily Kos 4.0. It is possible that the changes will be so profound that the request I make here will be moot -- but I doubt it.
Like recent diaries here and here, I argue for automatic tip jars. But I do not do so merely for the reasons you may suspect.
The reason that most people call for automatic tip jars is the hope that they would flush trolls out into the open. Sophisticated trolls have long figured out that if they post a diary more than 24 hours after their last comment, and then don't make any comments in the new diary, they can avoid suffering any consequences for their actions unless someone is lying in wait for their next innocuous comment or the Admins decide to intervene.
It used to be, by the way, that hide-rating tip jars was considered improper here: the principle was "the HR (or, at this time, "TR"; that change in nomenclature took place a little over a year ago) adheres to the comment, not the diary or the diarist." That, like much else here; has changed. We used to post recipes in response to trolls. Now we generally insult them and backslap one another in good fellowship. Without direction from above, we will likely not return to the era when recipes were prevalent, though of course they still exist.
The argument for automatic tip jars as a means of preventing trolls from finding sanctuary is pretty clear and well-known. If we've moved out of the recipe era, it probably makes sense. But there's another reason for automatic tip jars that I find more compelling: that it resolves an irritating problem of site etiquette: making "jumping the jar" impossible.
About a year ago, ek hornbeck "Welcomed New Users" with this diary.
(UPDATE: Note that below ek disavows the comments below as an accurate reflection of his current views; I'm not sure if they accurately reflected his views at the time. My interest was in the arguments themselves, which I think are cogent and powerful; whether ek believes them is not important to my purpose in repeating them.)
We had this exchange (edited for length and relevance):
Tip jars should be automatic
But I guess that arguing that point here would be threadjacking.
And thanks for the shoutout, ek. See you on DD.
by Seneca Doane on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 08:25:13 PM PDT
Well...
I disagree. I don't think moral choices should be forced on people, they should demonstrate their true character naturally.
But I do encourage good behavior.
by ek hornbeck on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 08:28:31 PM PDT
It's not a /*moral/* choice, it's /*administrative/*
The site admins should understand the asking people to stand up for their diaries by putting up a tip jar is an important way of facilitating self-governance and community moderation, which as it stands can be beaten by hit-and-runners. If we see one candidate's supporters HR'ing another's tip jars without good cause, then they are themselves out of line.
As an additional benefit, it would prevent tip jar jumping -- which can be innocent as well as not -- and avoid the long wait to see if the diarist does post a tip jar after all before posting one's first comment.
Allowing hiding of comments at all is more of a moral choice than that.
by Seneca Doane on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 08:54:31 PM PDT
"beaten by hit-and-runners"
See, that's where the argument falls down.
5 minutes of research can identify hit and runners.
And if you're not willing to do the research who are you to be calling the foul?
by ek hornbeck on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 08:57:45 PM PDT
I've forgotten to post tip jars for 10 minutes
and had people grouse about whether they could post. I don't think your second statement above is definitive, though I'd look forward to the diary explaining how one spends that 5 minutes for a definitive answer -- and how one handles forgetful types like me.
by Seneca Doane on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:20:02 PM PDT
Really?
I'd simply look to see if you'd commented at all in your own diaries, especially the controversial ones.
It's not all that hard.
by ek hornbeck on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 09:22:43 PM PDT
And then what?
I assume you're implying that if Author A hasn't commented in previous diaries, he or she is probably trolling, and it's OK not to wait for a tip jar to comment, but if Author A has commented in previous diaries, he or she is probably legit, and you should wait to comment until you see the tip jar.
The problem -- as I posed up above -- is that sometimes forgetful types like me forget to post a tip jar ... leaving people who would like to comment waiting ... for what seems like ... forever. An automatic tip jar would prevent that.
But otherwise, your system does a good job of distinguishing between the benign and malign, but those people who just make a mistake.
by Seneca Doane on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 11:08:50 PM PDT
I'd snitch on you.
Seriously.
I'd turn you in to the Admins with my evidence and accept their decision.
by ek hornbeck on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 11:18:23 PM PDT
Snitch on me for what?
For forgetting to post a tip jar? Man, that's harsh!
After mulling over your comment, I think you're describing a case where someone never comments in their own diaries. If you want to turn someone in for that, so be it. (Goodbye David Sirota and Amitai Etzioni!) But you've missed the problem.
The problem is that if I see a diary from someone who isn't an apparent troll and would like to comment on it, but there has been no tip jar posted, I don't know whether I can comment or not. I don't know if the person is just composing a comment, or was called away from the computer for a couple of minutes, or if they forgot to post.
An automatic (and editable, pre-posting) tip jar would give people the go ahead to make the second comment right away, either attached to the tip jar or not. It would obviate what is now a waste of time.
by Seneca Doane on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:01:28 AM PDT
Well, yes...
I just don't feel comfortable mandating it and I think that implementation could be a problem for the programmer.
Your inner goodness should come from yourself.
by ek hornbeck on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:28:30 AM PDT
Putting my inner goodness aside
I don't see why this would be difficult to implement in the sort of major upgrade Hunter was discussing some time ago, which I assume is still in the offings.
It would be pretty simple. The default when you posted a diary would be a comment called "Tip Jar n/t" to be posted the same moment as the diary. Before posting, you'd get a prompt: "Edit tip jar?" to which you could say "no" (in which case, proceed to the default) or "yes" (in which case, proceed to the "pre-posting a comment" function that we have now.) I'm be flabbergasted if this was really too hard to program.
Now as to my inner goodness (and yours), I justify an automatic tip jar because it will reduce the interpersonal perplexity on the site: "it's been X minutes and no tip jar, can I go ahead and post yet?", which I'm sure you too have experienced and which is irritating. That it allows people to respond appropriately to troll diaries is a bonus.
by Seneca Doane on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 10:24:35 AM PDT
And a second follow-up on tip poaching
I was just on a Rec'd diary and noticed this dust-up involving a newbie who wanted the diarist to post a tip jar and got slammed by others for "tip poaching." This is exactly the kind of needless waste of energy and expenditure of vitriol that automatic tip jars would avoid. If, as there, the diarist didn't want tips, he or she could simply say "no tip, please" and there would be no problem (although people may not comply -- but so what.) Instead, we have repeated meta-dustups because the system assures ambiguity -- unnecessarily! Are we better off as a site for that sort of thread to occur?
by Seneca Doane on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 11:23:04 AM PDT
And it's all just as meaningless as "zed".
You can't enforce morality with software.
You can only enlighten individuals.
by ek hornbeck on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 11:35:57 AM PDT
This isn't enforcing morality
It's structuring a social environment so as to reduce the number of unnecessary and avoidable negative interactions. The argument you present could just as well be offered against traffic lights, which also "enforce morality" -- although they also make traffic flow more smoothly and safely.
(Who's "zed"?)
by Seneca Doane on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:34:06 PM PDT
I've continued my crusade this past year in comments in May, June, July, August, September, October, and again last month, almost always in response not to trolls, but to me or someone else jumping the jar and starting a needless fracas.
I know – and I hope that others all know, though I doubt it – that you can always put in your tip jar before other people comment. But people usually don't, and in any event it's not automatic. The problem here is not that we need to make the diarists show less laziness and more consideration; the problem is that the lack of automatic tip jars creates trouble for the rest of us, who often wait before someone who has forgotten to post a jar does so, and who then often see someone else (sometimes though not always someone being a jerk) put in that first comment without regard to the "waiting five minutes" rule and often spark an annoying and distracting debate branching off that first comment that substantially distracts from the utility of the comments section.
Note of upcoming update: I've decided that I'm going to search for recent examples of the problem. I'll update this diary with them here.
These problems -- of canny trolls and lack of clear signals as to when one can post without jumping the jar -- have a ready technical fix. If you agree that it should be employed, here's your chance to say so.