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An American Scandal: The Minimum Wage

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Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 06:38:23 AM PDT

  The minimum wage is a scandal. It masks poverty. It must be dramatically raised.

  On July 24th, the minimum wage will rise to $7.25 an hour. I applaud people who worked hard to pass the three-step hike. The new level will put some extra money in the pockets of millions of Americans and, modestly, bump up wages that hover above the minimum wage because some employers will want to keep workers they value.

  But let's be honest: the minimum wage is an American scandal. It is a wage that makes us think that we have set a reasonable floor for wages so employers do not exploit people.

  But, the minimum wage IS a poverty-level wage. At the grand sum of the new $7.25 per hour, if you worked every single week, every day, you would earn $14,645 a year--with likely no health care, no retirement, no vacation days, no sick days. By comparison, the federal POVERTY LEVEL for a family of three is $17,600--a number that is outdated because it doesn't take into account the real cost of living. But, even that number is higher than what a person would earn at the new minimum wage.

  That is a scandal.

  Should I be fortunate enough to represent the people of New York in the U.S. Senate, I will, in my first year in office, push for an immediate hike of the minimum wage to $10 an hour, to be followed by additional hikes in the minimum wage so that it begins to reflect both the real cost of living and the incredible productivity of American workers that has not been reflected in their wages over the past 30 years. This is a proposal advocated by a variety of organizations, including Let Justice Roll.

  Yesterday, I debated the minimum wage issue on CNBC:

  What is startling to me, both from this recent debate and other discussions on the topic, is the continued lies that are spread about who "benefits" from the minimum wage and what truly contributes to a healthy economy.

  Here are some facts (drawn from various sources, including the Economic Policy Institute):

  Almost 10 percent of the workforce is affected by the minimum wage, either directly or indirectly ("indirectly" means that a rising minimum wage often increases wage levels just above the new minimum wage).

  It isn't true that the minimum wage is just a "starting wage" that people move out of, or that it is a wage just for teenagers working summer jobs or some other false argument. Four out of five minimum-wage workers are adults, and almost 3 in five of those are women. More than half work full-time. A quarter of minimum-wage workers have kids under the age of 18 and 1.2 million are single parents.

  It also simply false to say rises in the minimum wage have a large, negative effect on jobs--meaning, that companies have to cut jobs because of the increased cost of a higher minimum wage. There is a logic here, as EPI points out:

"New economic models that look specifically at low-wage labor markets help explain why there is little evidence of job loss associated with minimum wage increases. These models recognize that
employers may be able to absorb some of the costs of a wage increase through higher productivity, lower recruiting and training costs, decreased absenteeism, and increased worker morale."

  But, we should only be defending the minimum wage, in my opinion, as a concept--not praising the level that it stands at. It must be far higher.

  So, what is going on here?

  The truth is that the scandal of the minimum wage is part of the larger picture of a decades-long robbery of the American worker. The economy that we live in thrives on the backs of people who work for poverty-level wages.  

  I've made this point before: productivity has skyrocketed over the past 30 years but wages have remained essentially flat. Some of that productivity did come from technology advances. But, most of it came because workers labored harder than ever, partly out of fear of losing a job in an economy that has forced people to pile up debt and rely on credit cards to survive.

  The astounding wealth hoarded by CEOs and the top one-tenth of one percent of Americans was built up on the backs of hard labor and poverty-level wages. We do not have the slave-labor conditions seen in some other countries around the world. But, without question, the wealth of the country has been created by millions and funneled to a few.

  Had the minimum wage tracked productivity over that period of time, the minimum wage should be $19 an hour.

  I have also argued that the minimum wage scandal is far more important than the Bernie Madoff-type scandals. My friends, we got into the financial crisis we are in precisely because of the theft of wages of the American worker. Oh, how the free marketeers rejoiced at the decline of unions and the orgy of deregulation. But, as political leaders of both parties stood silent and were swamped by campaign cash from Wall Street and corporate interests, workers' wages were pummeled.

  And, then, what was left? An economy where people had to finance their lives through credit cards and, then, home equity--all illusions of wealth that are now gone.

  So, now what? How do people like the CNBC talking heads and our political leaders, who still do not recognize wage collapse as the number one reason for our economic debacle, envision us reviving a decent standard of living for millions of people?

  I say that one step is clear: a $10-an-hour minimum wage in 2010 as a small down-payment and a first step towards pushing wages back to a moral level.  

Tags: Minimum Wage, Class Warfare, Unions, Middle Class, New York Senate, 2010, Democrats (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 112 comments

    •  The minimum wage should be $19 an hour... (10+ / 0-)

      What more can one say? That is a truly staggering statistic/number. We are being buried by corporate interests and our representatives on a continual basis. Simply disgusting

      •  To match what it was under Kennedy (3+ / 0-)

        it would need to be in the neighborhood of 12 bucks an hour.

        Our role is to push and challenge politicians, not to fall meekly behind them.~HowardZinn

        by JesseCW on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:15:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  This is a red herring (0+ / 0-)

        The only way I can see 10% of workers being "affected" by the minimum wage is that union contracts are sometimes tied to it as a base for setting wage scale factors.

        We should be focusing on how to get people from minimum wage jobs into better paying jobs through better skills training.

        If raising the minimum wage will get people out of poverty, why stop at $10 or even $19? Why not pay $100 an hour? That is not the answer.  

        It's later than you think.

        by waltercrunkite on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:04:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  not (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Odysseus

          In the case of minimum-wage laws, because the cost of legally mandated raises relative to employer revenues is small, even ripple effects large enough to triple the cost of a minimum-wage increase do not represent a large burden for employers. Moreover, ripple effects enhance the somewhat anemic minimum-wage laws to make them more effective as policy tools for improving the lot of the working poor. Accounting for ripple effects nearly quadruples the number of beneficiaries of a minimum-wage hike and expands the majority of those beneficiaries who are adults—in many instances, family breadwinners.

          http://www.dollarsandsense.org/...

          yes...it is later than you think

          •  You are missing the point (0+ / 0-)

            Why focus on artifically raising a minimum wage instead of training people so that they can command a higher wage? That is the kind of productivity this nation needs.

            It is not the role of employers to pay out more than they need to in order to acquire the best talent for a given position. The employers have a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders.

            It's later than you think.

            by waltercrunkite on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 09:16:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Because that's worked so well in the past... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Hamsun

              Wow are you out of touch.

              -7.75 -4.67

              "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

              There are no Christians in foxholes.

              by Odysseus on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 09:27:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hah (0+ / 0-)

                Right - I forgot - training people to have in demand skills is such a bad idea. What did the GI Bill ever get us? I mean besides a lot of skilled workers.

                It's later than you think.

                by waltercrunkite on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 09:33:22 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  If it were that easy, it would be done. (0+ / 0-)

                  Do you think that Michigan is unaware that training has benefits?

                  Nobody is arguing that we are in some Marxian Nirvana of perfect utilization of potential.

                  The layoffs happening now are broad based.

                  From the BLS Handbook:

                  The diffusion indexes for private nonfarm payroll employment are based on estimates for 278 industries, while the manufacturing indexes are based on estimates for 84 industries. Each component series is assigned a value of 0, 50, or 100 percent, depending on whether its employment showed a decrease, no change, or an increase over a given period. The average (mean) value is then calculated, and this percent is the diffusion index number. The reference point for interpreting the diffusion indexes is 50 percent, the value that indicates that the same number of component industries have increased in employment as have decreased.

                  What were the recent numbers?

                  Private nonfarm payrolls, 271 industries(1)
                  April, 2009: 21.8

                  Most industries are reducing staff right now.  You can't retrain for jobs that don't exist.

                  -7.75 -4.67

                  "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

                  There are no Christians in foxholes.

                  by Odysseus on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 11:44:04 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  How is raising the minimum wage (0+ / 0-)

                    going to encourage employers to hire people? It will not.

                    You can train for jobs that don't exist - yet. Assuming we both agree that eventually we will get out of our economic troubles, there will be jobs in demand. Maybe it is nursing or installing solar panels or selling widgets. But the good jobs of the future are not going to be the same jobs that our parents could live on. For better or worse, working for a GM assembly plant is not a viable option. Installing geothermal heat is.

                    Maybe Michigan didn't address training for new jobs because it didn't have to - it knew it would be bailed out. But the thousands of people leaving the state do realize that there will be opportunities in other places.

                    It's later than you think.

                    by waltercrunkite on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 12:03:49 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  point? (0+ / 0-)

              reaganomics 101
              responsibility to shareholders
              free markets
              capitalism
              galt

              etc etc blah blah blah

              •  The point, Hamsun, (0+ / 0-)

                is that raising the minimum wage is not going to change anything or help anyone out of poverty. We would be better off focusing our energy on helping people adapt to the current markets and finding jobs that pay more than the minimum wage.

                Maybe if you read it slowly, it will sink in.

                You are getting worked up over a non-issue.

                It's later than you think.

                by waltercrunkite on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 11:26:45 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Keep building that moat. (0+ / 0-)

                  I hear you can hire groundskeepers cheaply.

                  -7.75 -4.67

                  "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

                  There are no Christians in foxholes.

                  by Odysseus on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 11:32:02 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Last reply (0+ / 0-)

                  wc...
                  your a piece of work but you really need to peddle your snake oil somewhere else like bloomberg or seekingalpha or any number of free market blogs in the known universe.  

                  We would be better off focusing our energy on helping people adapt to the current markets and finding jobs that pay more than the minimum wage.

                  Seriously....your going to try and sell that shit here? You need to bring your game up...

                  •  Apparently (0+ / 0-)

                    it is a novel idea for you, but helping people to be more productive is the way to help them out of poverty.

                    I guess I better take my snake oil of education and training somewhere else.

                    You really are a funny guy!

                    But really, why stop the minimum wage at $19 ah hour? If that is good, wouldn't $50 an hour be better?

                    It's later than you think.

                    by waltercrunkite on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 11:52:22 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Care to back that up? (0+ / 0-)

          A large percentage of food workers of all kinds are minimum wage or affected by it.  Waiters/waitresses, fast food, etc.  Nursing aides and several other professions also have a nontrivial percentage of affected workers.  Those are pretty significant employment sectors.

          BLS Median wage information  Check out some of those professions with a median wage of under $11/hr.  They're likely all affected.

          Food preparation and serving related occupations ($8.59); farming, fishing, and forestry occupations ($9.34); personal care and service occupations ($9.82); and building and grounds cleaning and maintenance occupations ($10.52) were among the lowest paying occupational groups.

          BLS minimum wage survey 2008

          Part-time workers (persons who usually work less than 35 hours per week) were more likely than their full-time counterparts to be paid the Federal minimum wage or less (about 7 percent versus about 2 percent).
          [...]
          By major occupational group, the highest proportion of workers earning at or below the Federal minimum wage was in service occupations, about 9 percent. About 7 in 10 workers earning the minimum wage or less in 2008 were employed in service occupations, mostly in food preparation and serving related jobs.

          So yes, only about 3% of workers earn the minimum wage or below, but a very significant population is within spitting distance.

          -7.75 -4.67

          "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

          There are no Christians in foxholes.

          by Odysseus on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 09:25:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You seem to forget that (0+ / 0-)

            Waiters/bussers get tips. McDonald's does not pay minimum wage. Do you really think a person making burgers at McDonald's should make $19 an hour? I encourage you to open a franchise.

            Even the professions you cited say that by definition half the workers make over the numbers given.

            People working at low skill jobs do not make a career of it. That is a stepping stone on to bigger and better.

            Again, the best way to get people into better paying jobs is to train them for more in demand professions, not artifically raising the floor for wages.

            It's later than you think.

            by waltercrunkite on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 09:38:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Your obtuseness is radicalizing even me. (0+ / 0-)

              Holy shit.

              I have a college degree and a 15 year history in IT.  I have three siblings in the top 10% of America.  I understand what motivation and training can get you in life.  That doesn't work for everyone.

              -7.75 -4.67

              "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

              There are no Christians in foxholes.

              by Odysseus on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 09:57:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  More statistics (6+ / 0-)

      income gaps

      Figures never lie, though liars may try to figure

      FULL DISCLOSURE - I'm a paid employee of PeanutButterPAC, a progressive, Kossack founded PAC.

      by MinistryOfTruth on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 06:49:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  While big businesses could likely afford (6+ / 0-)

    such an increase (although I am sure it would be passed back to consumers through price increases), small businesses could get killed by this.  Many small businesses are barely profitable as it is and a $6000 jump in wages per full-time employee would likely be their death knell.

    •  Why would small business (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Odysseus, Sychotic1, JesseCW, SolarAngel

      be hurt? Their competitors' costs would also rise, so the field would still be level. When the cost of raw materials, such as steel, rises, do businesses that use those materials simply throw up their hands and call it quits? Of course they don't. And as the capitalists always tell us, labor is just another form of raw material, right? So as long as the cost is the same for all, life will go on.

      Retail and service companies, the big employers of minimum wage workers, can't offshore their work.

      Washington state has the highest minimum in the nation, and it didn't hurt their employment numbers. In fact, before the recession, they had lower unemployment than next-door Idaho, where the wage was lower.

      "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

      by happy camper on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:12:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Forgot to add... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Sychotic1
        Low wage Idaho employers along the border with Washington raised their wages to attract and keep workers. So even state increases can have a positive ripple effect.

        "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

        by happy camper on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:26:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Small business (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Odysseus, happy camper

        Their competitors' costs would also rise, so the field would still be level.

        You are right that direct competitors would be in the same boat. But if the minimum wage abruptly jumps by 50%, there's a risk that entire business sectors could be wiped out, as their customers turn to alternative solutions.

        The key word here is "abruptly". See my comment below for more on this, if you are interested.

      •  It would constrain... (0+ / 0-)

        the ability of small businesses to expand...because the incremental cost of adding a new employee would be higher and then they would look at other alternatives such as outsourcing, substitution of capital for labor and just telling existing salaried employees to suck it up (e.g. no assistant for you...just do it yourself)....

        Obama - Change I still believe in

        by dvogel001 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:29:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Ask yourself why (0+ / 0-)

        Wal Mart is in favor of raising the minimum wage. They already pay more than that, so it does not affect their employees. All it does is squeeze margins of competitors, who in this case are by definition smaller than Wal Mart.

        It's later than you think.

        by waltercrunkite on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:08:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe because they have (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Sychotic1
          figured out that if the working poor have more money in their pockets, they might spend some of it at Walmart? Rising wages are vital in an economy that relies heavily on consumer spending. I'm amazed that so many businessmen can't get their minds around this fact.

          "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

          by happy camper on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:30:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly (0+ / 0-)

            This is a boogey man argument. Wal Mart says they support raising minimum wage because it costs them nothing and makes them look good. A tiny fraction of the work force actually gets paid minimum wage.

            A lot of business men do get this - if you pay the absolute minimum wage, you don't attract the best talent. That is the market place working.

            It's later than you think.

            by waltercrunkite on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:40:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Large, abrupt changes (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      happy camper

      ... are always going to be problematic, even if the desired post-change "steady state" makes perfect sense. Big changes need to be phased in over a period of time in order to avoid the kind of disruption you describe.

      To be clear, I do support making the minimum wage a living wage. But that will entail a substantial change, not just for minimum wage workers and their employers, but for the entire economy. As you say, Oz, a change of this magnitude cannot simply be absorbed by employers (with a few obvious exceptions-- Goldman Sachs can afford to pay their janitors more), and therefore will indeed be passed on to consumers, and ripple into every part of the economy.

      If the new $10 minimum wage is paid in real dollars-- that is, if it is not simply inflationary-- then it will have a redistributive effect (which I am all in favor of). That means that some people will have to get less so that minimum wage workers can get more. Who's going to take that hit? Care will have to be taken to make sure that a wage increase for bottom 10% is not paid for primarily by the next 40%, for example.

    •  Fuck 'em! (0+ / 0-)

      Many small businesses are barely profitable as it is and a $6000 jump in wages per full-time employee would likely be their death knell.

      If they can't pay a decent wage they don't deserve to be in business.

      Let them compete by producing a better product, by providing better service, by any number of things a business can do. But not at the expense of people who already are at the bottom of the ladder. No!

      "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

      by Ivan on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:19:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That is right... (0+ / 0-)

        just kill the engine that creates 2 out of 3 of every new job...sounds good to me.../snark

        Obama - Change I still believe in

        by dvogel001 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:29:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Stop the BS (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Odysseus

          A well-run business, no matter what the size, finds a way to survive and thrive. If a company's business model is

          "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

          by Ivan on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:31:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  continued (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Odysseus, exNYinTX

            BASED on getting labor cheap and keeping it cheap, then that company deserves no sympathy. Not all companies are based on cheap labor. But you knew that already, didn't you?

            "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

            by Ivan on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:33:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  As a small business owner (0+ / 0-)

            I have an office manager making $8 and happy to do so supplementing her husband's income...I frankly could run my business without her and at $10/hour I would probably do so or cut her hours so it would fit my business budget...

            So why should she suffer...she is happy, I am happy...it is a low stress job for her to make some additional spending money for her family....

            Obama - Change I still believe in

            by dvogel001 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:38:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Your case is not representative (4+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Odysseus, exNYinTX, happy camper, JesseCW

              and you know it perfectly well. For tens of millions of employees, that $8 per hour is not a "supplement" but their sole source of income. and it comes with plenty of stress.  

              "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

              by Ivan on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:42:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And you have data to back up... (0+ / 0-)

                your claim I assume...

                Obama - Change I still believe in

                by dvogel001 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:45:23 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes. (0+ / 0-)

                  "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

                  by Ivan on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:52:00 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Link...?...n/t (0+ / 0-)

                    Obama - Change I still believe in

                    by dvogel001 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:52:33 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Here is the data I have... (0+ / 0-)

                    2005
                    125,889 75,609 60.1 1,403 479 1,882 2.5

                    2.5 is 2.5% of all workers in the US are earning at or below the minimum wage...there are many reasons for this...but that is not a reason to kick those out of work who are happy with that wage...

                    Obama - Change I still believe in

                    by dvogel001 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:07:11 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And do your data tell you (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      happy camper

                      What percentage of minimum wage workers are "happy" with that wage?

                      Thought not.

                      Would your employee turn down a raise if you offered it to her?

                      Thought not.

                      Data is not the plural of anecdote.

                      "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

                      by Ivan on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:24:54 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  That it is a small portion of the population... (0+ / 0-)

                        that for some reason cannot command a wage beyond minimum based on their skill sets, familial situation, education, background or some other issue (conviction, disability, lack of flexibility)...

                        Are there some of these 2.5% of the US population that deserve to earn more based on their skill sets and cannot get it...perhaps a small number...but an artificially high federal minimum wage is a sledge hammer to kill a 2.5% fly...

                        Obama - Change I still believe in

                        by dvogel001 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:35:20 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  I don't know...but I would not offer... (0+ / 0-)

                        it to her and if forced to...I would do the office duties myself instead of paying an artificially high minimum wage...

                        Obama - Change I still believe in

                        by dvogel001 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:36:16 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  If you can afford the luxury (0+ / 0-)

                          of paying for an employee you don't really need, then you must be making a pretty good profit.

                          "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

                          by happy camper on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:38:30 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Fortunately I make a good living... (0+ / 0-)

                            It is a choice...I can leverage her time for better quality of life and billing more time to clients...

                            But I could make a good living with or without her...

                            Obama - Change I still believe in

                            by dvogel001 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:41:38 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  If you are billing (0+ / 0-)

                              more time to clients because she does the office work, then you must be earning more than you would without her services?  How much do you bill for an hour of your time? I'll bet it's way more than $8.

                              "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

                              by happy camper on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:44:19 AM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  Of course it is... (0+ / 0-)

                                what does that have to do with anything...?

                                Obama - Change I still believe in

                                by dvogel001 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:45:27 AM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

                              •  So I guess I should pay her... (0+ / 0-)

                                exactly what I bill my clients for...after all that would be fair...she has the same education and training as me...NOT.../semi-snark

                                Obama - Change I still believe in

                                by dvogel001 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:46:27 AM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

                                •  Another straw man. (1+ / 0-)

                                  Recommended by:
                                  Odysseus

                                  I never suggested you pay her what you earn. You, however, claimed in an earlier post that if you had to pay her more than $8 you'd let her go and do the work yourself. Then you claimed you actually profit by paying her to do menial work while you make the big bucks.

                                  Which is it?

                                  "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

                                  by happy camper on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:51:01 AM PDT

                                  [ Parent ]

                                  •  There's a third possibility (0+ / 0-)

                                    that just occurred to me: you pay her so you can spend time posting here!

                                    C'mon. That must be worth more than $8 per hour!

                                     

                                    "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

                                    by happy camper on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:55:24 AM PDT

                                    [ Parent ]

                                  •  Yes...there is marginal additional billible... (0+ / 0-)

                                    time I can get from leveraging her time...but it is not enough to justify additional wages...She currently costs me about $10K per year and I get maybe about that much in additional billings from that...so it is a wash...it is not a 1-1 hour exchange...

                                    So I could take $10K less in income and reduce my overhead by $10K and take on some additional responsibilities or pay my accountant to do some of them...I have choices and many other small business people do as well...if the minimum wage increased to $19/hour those would be considered...

                                    The point you do not get...is she is willing to do this work for what I pay her...she does not feel taken advantage of and appreciates the additional income to supplement her husband and allow them to go out to eat on occasion or buy a toy for the kids, save up for a vacation...etc...

                                    Obama - Change I still believe in

                                    by dvogel001 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 09:02:50 AM PDT

                                    [ Parent ]

                          •  Another example is... (0+ / 0-)

                            temporary summer help to do a project to organize your files...I can do it myself...but it would be nice to hire someone...but would I do it for $19/hour...no way...

                            Obama - Change I still believe in

                            by dvogel001 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:42:57 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  Are there really tens of millions... (0+ / 0-)

                ...of people working for minimum wage?

                I'd like to see that data.

                •  7+M work for minimum, many more near it. (0+ / 0-)

                  Check the BLS link.

                  There are a good 45M people who work for about 1-2x minimum wage.  Raising it would affect many of them.

                  Some of their data:

                  Healthcare support occupations 3,779,280 12.66 26,340 11.80
                  Food preparation and serving related occupations 11,438,550 9.72 20,220 8.59
                  Building and grounds cleaning and maintenance occupations 4,429,870 11.72 24,370 10.52
                  Personal care and service occupations 3,437,520 11.59 24,120 9.82
                  Sales and related occupations 14,336,430 17.35 36,080 11.69
                  Farming, fishing, and forestry occupations 438,490 11.32 23,560 9.34
                  Transportation and material moving occupations 9,508,750 15.12 31,450 13.14
                  [...]
                  Education, training, and library occupations
                  Preschool teachers, except special education................................................................... 392,170 12.80 26,610 11.48

                  -7.75 -4.67

                  "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

                  There are no Christians in foxholes.

                  by Odysseus on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 11:05:17 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Sorry, bad math (0+ / 0-)

                    The media wage is what the 50% worker makes.  so not 45M but 22M.  Still, "tens of millions" is close enough to the truth not to be called a lie outright.

                    -7.75 -4.67

                    "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

                    There are no Christians in foxholes.

                    by Odysseus on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 11:29:33 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Let's take an example of daycare (0+ / 0-)

            Most daycare workers are paid minimum wage and the owners are hardly making bank on the business.  Now, up each one of her 4 full time employees by $6000/year and the costs will either get pushed back on the parents of the kids (who likely cannot afford the increase) or the business will close (since the owner isn't going to work for free).  Any abrupt change in the minimum wage is going to be disruptive and likely inflationary.

            •  That's what they always say (0+ / 0-)

              And I'm not buying it. LIFE is disruptive.

              "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

              by Ivan on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:51:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, but what you will also find (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Odysseus, happy camper

              is the wages of most, if not all, of the parents who 'likely cannot afford the increase' are going to rise along with the workers at the Day Care facility.

              Yes, there will be a point where the raise does not happen, but for the most part over the course of the near future most wages will compensate up from the minimum. (Managers will not work for less then the people they manage for instance.)

              This is the great secret of the artificially low minimum wage. It keeps most wages artificially low. It is one of the things that has helped all of the benefits from the productivity increases going to those at the top.

  •  It never works (0+ / 0-)

    You would have to freeze prices as well prevent business from just picking up shop and moving overseas

    •  So do it (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Odysseus

      didn't Nixon freeze prices? and he wasn't dealing with a clusterfuck like we are.

      FULL DISCLOSURE - I'm a paid employee of PeanutButterPAC, a progressive, Kossack founded PAC.

      by MinistryOfTruth on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 06:53:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This may come as a shock, but the vast majority (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Odysseus, exNYinTX, happy camper

      of Jobs which would pay minimum wage and could be moved overseas, have already been moved overseas.

      Very, very few actual manufacturing jobs pay minimum.

      The question is what the people working fast food, doing day labor, and sweeping floors will make - and those jobs can't be sent overseas.

      There's no "price freeze" needed to deal with a minimum wage increase - it means slightly more cash in the pockets of the poorest 10%, and slightly higher prices for some services.  That's no huge inflation driver.

      Our role is to push and challenge politicians, not to fall meekly behind them.~HowardZinn

      by JesseCW on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:19:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The minimum wage needs to be (0+ / 0-)

    increased..that's a given. Even raising the idea of $19.00 per hour is foolish to the extreme.

    A good diary but please refrain from using the term "My friends". It brings back memories of John McCain's platitudes that I would like to leave in the past.

    Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

    by Morgan Sandlin on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 06:52:40 AM PDT

    •  If the worker's productivity (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Odysseus

      is such that they can make $19 per hour, and still leave a profit margin for their employer, then there is no reason to NOT pay that wage. Other than greed by the owner(s), of course.

      "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

      by happy camper on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:35:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The crisis and inequality (6+ / 0-)

    I think the key point here is the connection you draw between the housing bubble (and the larger debt crisis) and the continued relative impoverishment of most Americans--the fact that part of what is impelling people to go into debt or try to win the home equity lottery is that they aren't making enough to live a reasonable middle class life without doing so.  This seems completely unaddressed in even a lot of progressive analysis of the economic situation.

    •  Nailed it (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Odysseus, happy camper

      -the fact that part of what is impelling people to go into debt or try to win the home equity lottery is that they aren't making enough to live a reasonable middle class life without doing so.

      Hey, but at least my bank didn't go under.

      snark

      FULL DISCLOSURE - I'm a paid employee of PeanutButterPAC, a progressive, Kossack founded PAC.

      by MinistryOfTruth on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 06:54:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  A huge factor has been (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Odysseus

      the moving of the goalposts of what constitutes "a reasonable middle class life":  e.g.,  we've had a huge increase in car ownership in the last 50 years,  as well as television ownership (and typical size/cost),  telephones,  vacations and other expensive goodies,  that's outstripped growth in income.

      We had (and would still have,  if it weren't for the credit crunch) 30-somethings who still hadn't paid off their student loans taking out second mortgages so they could buy a 60-inch plasma TV to watch the videos of their Tahitian cruise.

      It was like half the country turned into Blondie,  bragging to Dagwood about how much she had saved by buying 6 new hats on sale.

  •  But if you raise... (0+ / 0-)

    ...the minimum wage, you also raise the cost of living.  Worse, it makes it harder to hire people because each business has to have revenues to support the higher labor cost.

    There needs to be some minimum wage, but we can't just pull "$10" out of the air.  The right number needs to be based on calculations.  Taking the poverty line and dividing by the number of hours in a year is not the right calculation.

    The best way to create justice is to keep minimum wages relatively low...but use progressive taxation to fund education, healthcare, and other public benefits that increase quality-of-life.

    There are people who only have the skills to produce $9.00 worth of stuff in an hour.  If we raise the minimum wage to $10.00 those people will lose their jobs.

    •  What needs to be done (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ManhattanMan, oldjohnbrown, JesseCW

      is figure out the maximum amount of minimum wage increase with the lowest amount of CoL increase.  I'm sure there's a balance somewhere that will still benefit everyone.  I'm not saying bump the minimum up to $19/hour or whatever, but even bumping it up to $10 would be a huge increase for most people.

      I have Swedish heritage. Does that make me a Socialist too?

      by Mortus on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 06:57:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly... (0+ / 0-)

        ...we need to do the math.  We also need to do the math on what minimum wage causes job losses (never seen before) or prevents jobs from being created (very hard to measure).

        Pulling a crowd-pleasing number like "Ten Dollars!" out of thin air looks like Bad Policy.

        Lastly, we need to think about what we want.  We don't want "high wages".  We actually want workers to have good education, healthcare, old-age benefits, housing, etc.  If these things can be provided through Progressive Taxation, it doesn't matter if people make $1.00/hr.

    •  Increases in minimum wage have never been (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Odysseus, Sychotic1, happy camper

      shown to cause job losses, and they create only a slight increase in the cost of living.

      Rather, the reverse is true - the poor spend their income, creating jobs.

      When the minimum wage is increased, labor costs rise for everyone using minimum wage workers.  

      There is no competitive disadvantage, just a slight increase in the cost of some services.

      Our role is to push and challenge politicians, not to fall meekly behind them.~HowardZinn

      by JesseCW on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:23:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That is because... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ManhattanMan

        the marginal increases in recent history have been so relatively small and so behind where real wages were that it had no practical effect on employment...that does not mean that drastic increases in the minimum wage would not have a negative effect on the employment of low skilled people...

        If there were no consequences to raising the minimum wage drastically...why stop at $19 why not $100 per hour...?

        Obama - Change I still believe in

        by dvogel001 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:34:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That talking point is (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          JesseCW

          straight from the Karl Rove playbook. Nobody has suggested anything of the sort, and you know it.

          Nice strawman.

          "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

          by happy camper on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:14:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The point is... (0+ / 0-)

            and yes I used hyperbole to make my point is that there will always be a market based decision to hire the next person based on the marginal cost of that labor...if Karl Rove said that then a "broken clock is right at least once a day"...

            Obama - Change I still believe in

            by dvogel001 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:19:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  How can... (0+ / 0-)

        ...there be an "increase in cost of some services" without there being a competitive disadvantage?

        Let the wages stay low, let the businesses make profit, then tax the profit.  Otherwise, we risk killing marginally profitable businesses.

        A minimum wage hike is a tax on all businesses, only some of which actually have money.  Go for progressive taxation of profits instead, this way the businessmen that are underpaying their workers (i.e., making the highest profit off of their labor) will bear most of the cost.

        •  What I said was (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Odysseus, happy camper

          a slight increase in the cost of some services.

          When Joe's Burgers and Burger King both have to pay a few dollars more an hour, there is no competitive disadvantage between them.  

          What mythical marginally profitable business goes under as a result of a wage increase that hits their competitors equally?

          Our role is to push and challenge politicians, not to fall meekly behind them.~HowardZinn

          by JesseCW on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:47:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Because the price... (0+ / 0-)

            ..of all Burgers is now so high that some consumers stay home and eat beans!

            Gas stations used to check your oil and do your windows for you. Corporations used to have humans answer the phone.  Banks used to have human tellers instead of ATMs (with microchips made in Asia).  High labor costs have eliminated these jobs.

            Of course, the minimum wage hike has given poor consumers more money, so maybe, maybe the Burger Joints will get more business because more people can afford the higher prices.  That is why I say, "do the math".

            We know that somewhere between $7.75/hr and $100.00/hr there is a minimum wage that is Just Too High.  We have never hit it...yet.

            Also, there are no statistics that can show how many potential business ideas got scrapped because they could not afford to pay the minimum wages.

            Let people work for low wages, tax the profits and salaries of their employers, use the taxes to fund services.  This is much better than pulling wage numbers out of the air hoping to get lucky with the right one.

            •  High labor cost isn't the real reason.. (5+ / 0-)

              those jobs have been lost. They have been lost because of the artificial notion that business needs to have an increased profit margin every quarter. They have more jobs lost to support management bonuses then to the minimum wage. Check out every major layoff announcement not made during a recession and then check what the stock prices did to management stock options. Also you take away some of the absurd management pay, and you could fund hundreds of $19/hr employees.

              Yes, there is a downside to increased costs for business start up. But I saw little about that when real estate costs made business start up massively expensive for instance. It is always expensive to start a business.

              One thing we need to get over in this country is the idea that labor should be cheap. Our populace is not helped by this idea. The strength of our country is not helped by this idea. And our economy is not helped by this idea.

            •  Labor costs are not the reason (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              happy camper

              for ATMs.  Convenience is.  

              Tellers make substantially more than minimum wage, anyway.

              Gas Stations used to check your oil and wash your windows in the 60's, when the minimum wage was 60% higher in real dollars.

              Let people work for low wages, tax the profits and salaries of their employers, use the taxes to fund services.

              When workers have disposable income, we have a nifty thing called a consumer economy.

              When they don't, we don't, and there's nothing to tax to pay for those services with.

              Our role is to push and challenge politicians, not to fall meekly behind them.~HowardZinn

              by JesseCW on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:26:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The "consumer economy"... (0+ / 0-)

                ...is one of the sources of our current pain. In a Consumer Economy, so much depends on people buying stuff...usually stuff that is imported, fattening, or bad for the environment, btw.  When they get scared (or smart), they close their wallets and send us all into recession.

                We can't fall into the meme that "consumers" are somehow an agent of prosperity.  Consumers eat prosperity!

                We need an economy based on providing housing and education, not Barbie dolls and burgers.

              •  Wages *are* the reason for lost services. (0+ / 0-)

                ATMs are used in small spaces, that's not a labor issue.  I'll concede that.

                But why aren't bank branches open 24-7? Because the small amount of midnight business isn't worth the wages of keeping all those employees in-house all night.

                So instead, if you wish to bank at midnight, you must use an ATM which is less secure and offers limited functions.

                A job that might have been done by an American teller is now done by a computer-chip maker in Taiwan.

  •  5 people in a one bedroom apartment. Thanks ! (8+ / 0-)

    I remember seeing 5 people living in a one bedroom apartment and thinking "how third world"  This was 20 years ago.  Now, this is common.  Two familys are forced into living together.  Yes, minimum wage is a joke.  It's legalized slave wages.  I don't want a .99 cent hamburger.  I know someone has to suffer in order to make it a .99 cent burger.  

    That vision from 20 years ago is so common in L.A. that it's a fact, I now live in a third world country.  

    The minimum wage needs to hit $15.00   Figure it out.  

    What if there was an under 21 wage of $7.25 an hour .  Get college kids and high school kids back into burger joints, food service, and all of those other jobs that have gone south of the border.

    I love all of my peep's, just calling it as I seez it.

    "Hey, with religion you can't get just a little pregnant"

    by EarTo44 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:00:25 AM PDT

    •  The CA minimum wage needs to hit 13-15 an hour (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Odysseus, Sychotic1, brouski

      but the Federal Minimum Wage honestly doesn't need to be that high.

      The Cost of Living in Kansas City ain't the Cost of Living in Los Angeles.

      In 'n Out can pay 11.50 an hour starting pay and turn a good profit.

      Well, so can mickey D's.

      Our role is to push and challenge politicians, not to fall meekly behind them.~HowardZinn

      by JesseCW on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:26:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Data to support this from the Census Bureau (0+ / 0-)

      Historical Census of Housing Tables:  Crowding

      Severely crowded homes (those with more than 1.5 persons per room) ranged from a high of 9.0 percent in 1940 to a low of 1.4 percent in 1980.  In 2000, 2.7 percent of occupied housing units (2.9 million) were considered severely crowded.
      [...]
                                2        0        0        0

                        All occupied        Crowded             Severely crowded
                        housing units      (1.01 or more)         (1.51 or more)

                                            Number Percent         Number Percent
      United States      105,480,101      6,057,890    5.7%      2,873,122    2.7%

      Alabama              1,737,080         51,004    2.9%         15,904    0.9%
      Alaska                 221,600         18,970    8.6%          8,910    4.0%
      Arizona              1,901,327        163,463    8.6%         80,337    4.2%
      Arkansas             1,042,696         38,081    3.7%         11,928    1.1%
      California          11,502,870      1,748,352   15.2%      1,048,042    9.1%

      -7.75 -4.67

      "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

      There are no Christians in foxholes.

      by Odysseus on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 11:10:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I agree with you entirely (4+ / 0-)

    Good luck, though. One of the biggest contributors to the anti-minimum wage law itself is the U.S. Chamber of Commerce which routinely spreads lies and buys politicians who will serve the interests of the oligarchy.

    Thank you for your diary, your common sense, and your message of fair play and justice.

  •  The minimum wage is a complicated issue... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    VClib

    because for many a minimum wage could be a part time job supplementing income or a 2nd income in a 2 income family or a summer job for a teenager/college student...

    Sure there are many people who try to live on a minimum wage but many do not.  Then you have regional disparaties...in many parts of the country and rural areas $15K while still poor is not destitute and will keep a roof over your head and put food on your table

    True in our cities and surburban areas, this wage is wholly inadequate but should there be a federal wage that is too high for some areas just to compensate for high cost of living areas?

    There is a relationship with sharp rises in minimum wage between hiring a new employee or simply asking existing employees to pick up the slack, outsourcing or automating a process as well.

    Obama - Change I still believe in

    by dvogel001 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:06:04 AM PDT

  •  The real scandal (6+ / 0-)

    The real scandal is that Congress has refused to index the minimum wage to inflation, requiring the political will to raise it when it needs raising.

    Of course there are a lot of items that require Congress to act in order to raise them -- the gasoline tax for example is in absolute cents instead of a percent of the price.  Holding the tax low in a time of high oil prices means that DOTs can no longer afford asphalt, which tracks with the price of oil (and gasoline).

    50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

    by TarheelDem on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:09:37 AM PDT

  •  I would like to ask (4+ / 0-)

    that all those posting Chamber of Commerce talking points--the minimum will cause unemployment, some people don't produce enough to justify a living wage, minimum wage earners are all kids and part timers--to put up some links from reputable economic sources that back up their contentions.

    "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

    by happy camper on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:17:23 AM PDT

  •  It seems a lot of people... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Odysseus, happy camper, JesseCW

    It seems a lot of people associate the minimum wage with teenaged burger flippers making money for iPods and Nikes.

    Unfortunately, that's not the case anymore. There are a lot of American families with the adults working 3-4 jobs trying to survive on these jobs because they can't find anything else. And no one in power cares from either side of the fence.

    "Ridicule may lawfully be employed where reason has no hope of success." -7.75/-6.05

    by QuestionAuthority on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:20:23 AM PDT

  •  2009 poverty level for family of 4 is $22,050... (4+ / 0-)

    according to HHS--see http://aspe.hhs.gov/...  Divide that by 2,080 hours per year (40 hours x 52 weeks) and you get $10.60.  Shouldn't a job provide enough money for a single breadwinner to support a family of 4 at or, preferably, above the poverty line?  And, as noted, such jobs typically don't have health insurance, meaning that it becomes a rational decision on the part of a single parent with kids to forego employment at all and stay on welfare, so as to be eligible for Medicaid.

    Meaningful health care reform combined with an increase in the minimum wage would go a long way toward eliminating poverty in this country.

    •  Thanks to "welfare to work" (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      historys mysteries, happy camper

      programs (at least in my State, I don't know about elsewhere) they tend to get Medicare (medi-cal here) as long as they stay just broke enough.

      Throw in the Earned Income Credit being tacked onto the check by the employer, and the end result is not a subsidy to the employee, but to the employer.

      Wal-Mart gets an employee with health care, actually making about 15% more than they're paying, and all the associated benefits.

      At the end of the day, almost all wellfare is corporate wellfare.

      Our role is to push and challenge politicians, not to fall meekly behind them.~HowardZinn

      by JesseCW on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:58:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  EITC should be an employer subsidy. (0+ / 0-)

        It should also be massively increased.  I support something like a dollar-for-dollar match all the way to the Federal Poverty Line.

        Something like that would massively increase the amount of innovative risk taking in America.

        -7.75 -4.67

        "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

        There are no Christians in foxholes.

        by Odysseus on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 11:12:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It *is* an employer subsidy (0+ / 0-)

          It means employers can get away with paying less than a living wage, and still have an employee show up who doesn't faint from hunger two hours into their shift.

          What "innovative risk taking" would result from Target and Jack in the Box paying double, out of tax money comming from...where?

          Our role is to push and challenge politicians, not to fall meekly behind them.~HowardZinn

          by JesseCW on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 12:36:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  My own experience. (3+ / 0-)

    I live in the province of Saskatchewan up here in Canada and we've seen fairly regular minimum wage increases for a while now.  When I first entered the job force in high school I think min wage had just gone up to $5 or something.  At that time "everyone" - and by that I mean the business lobby running to the media - said it would crush the economy and businesses would close.  

    That was probably 15 years ago or so.  Now I think the min wage is over $7.  It has been hiked a little bit every year and every single time it happens the same people come out to complain about how unfair it is and how it will ruin the economy and businesses will have to close.

    Today my city hasn't grown much over that time, if at all.  Yet the number of businesses and restaurants and big box stores and other retail chains has skyrocketed.  And somehow the city keep building new houses and expanding and we are currently considered the only province in Canada NOT in a recession.  

    Now obviously I can't attribute that ALL to minimum wage, but I think the massive expansion in retail chains and restaurants that have been popping up are proof that raising the minimum wage isn't a deterant to the economy.  Quite the opposite it would seem.  Because the only logical explanation I can think of for how all these businesses can stick around despite the population barely growing is that they all mainly hire minimum wage workers.  And the more money those workers have, the more they are going to spend on goods and services.  Therefore, you have more money circulating through the economy and sustaining all these businesses.

  •  minimum wage, hyah! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Odysseus

    I personally prioritize universal health care over minimum wage if there's only one place to spend political capital -- because that single line-item would be worth more to the people in the hell of minimum wage + no benefits.  

    But I agree with all of this.  I'm not a New Yorker, but good luck!

  •  What about maximum wage (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    0hio

    Salary caps should be enforced on the upper 1% that soak up the vast majority of our wealth.  Its like we have are experiencing a drought and there is a man made lake behind a dam, a dam named "Special Interest."  Instead of lowering the dam, we are trying to get the people playing in the lake to splash some more water down to the unwashed masses.

    Completely absurd.  Lower the goddamned dam.  I'm not saying you have to drain the lake completely, but open the floodgates.  

    And to diffuse the eventual counter-point of "Well if you cap salaries then what will be someone's incentive to work harder?" That good sir is a bullshit argument, if you make $500 million / year, what is your incentive to make another million.  You already have more money than you can spend.  The only reason is because you are obsessed with building up a vast financial empire.  We are defending sociopaths' desire for unspeakable wealth while their actions subvert democracy and destroy our society.  Cap salaries at $100 million dollars a year, and if the current CEOs don't want to work for that I'm sure we can find someone who does.

    The people united will never be defeated

    by ihumanable on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 07:56:38 AM PDT

    •  We don't need salary caps to achieve that end (4+ / 0-)

      we need a top tax bracket at 70% again.

      When they can't manage to get "set for live" by pumping profits for two quarters and destroying the company in the process, a lot will change.

      Our role is to push and challenge politicians, not to fall meekly behind them.~HowardZinn

      by JesseCW on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:00:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Spot on (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        historys mysteries, JesseCW

        Low tax rates are an incentive for the wealthy to turn the economy into a casino. It happened in the 30's, so tax rates on the top earners were increased drastically. Republicans regained control and lowered them, and now it has happened again.

        It seems like a pretty straightforward lesson, doesn't it? Too bad we had to relearn it.

        "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

        by happy camper on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 08:21:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The bigger scandal is found in the lack of a (0+ / 0-)

    maximum wage.

    If we can impose a minimum why not a maximum?

    All that aside, the real scandal is neither min/max wages. It's the almost complete lack of THOUGHT regarding the inherent values accorded the buy/sale transaction known as employment.

    What if all labor could be FREE?

    Way back when man 1st worked for wage certain standards were imposed for whatever reason. Over the centuries these standards were accepted as being accepted practices, conventional wisdom and tradition teachings.

    IF, I repeat, IF the basis for such standards was flawed, are they not yet flawed today?

    Conventional wisdom is passed from generation to generation without hardly anyone questioning the basis of such knowledge.

    If we allow others to think for us, WHAT THE HELL is our brain for anyway?

    Ask yourself, when was the last time you sat down and gave deliberate thought to any important subject in your life?

    We allow others to think for us and then COMPLAIN about our own self destructive behavior.

    It's WAY past time for all Americans to not only turn the damn TV set off but to throw it in the waste can of life.

    Today if you don't want to THINK, turn on the MJ bs or the Palin bs. Allow others to use your time, energy and brain.

    Here's a simple scenario you can think about.

    A guy offers his employee $100,000 annually. The employee has to buy a ten year term $100,000 zero coupon bond which cost $10,000. Further, let's set forth the zero coupon bonds are tax exempt bonds.

    1st year, employee receives $100,000 wage, buys employer ten year $100,000 zero coupon bond that cost $10,000.

    2nd year, employee receives $100,000 wage, buys employer ten year $100,000 zero coupon bond that cost $10,000.

    3rd year, employee receives $100,000 wage, buys employer ten year $100,000 zero coupon bond that cost $10,000.

    4th year, employee receives $100,000 wage, buys employer ten year $100,000 zero coupon bond that cost $10,000.

    5th year, employee receives $100,000 wage, buys employer ten year $100,000 zero coupon bond that cost $10,000.

    6th year, employee receives $100,000 wage, buys employer ten year $100,000 zero coupon bond that cost $10,000.

    7th year, employee receives $100,000 wage, buys employer ten year $100,000 zero coupon bond that cost $10,000.

    8th year, employee receives $100,000 wage, buys employer ten year $100,000 zero coupon bond that cost $10,000.

    9th year, employee receives $100,000 wage, buys employer ten year $100,000 zero coupon bond that cost $10,000.

    10th year, employee receives $100,000 wage, buys employer ten year $100,000 zero coupon bond that cost $10,000.

    Do you see where this is headed?

    Why would any employee buy a ten year zero coupon bond that cost $10,000 and give it to his/her employer?

    Why would any employer pay an employee $100,000 when he could get cheaper labor?

    There are a MILLION questions that could be asked about the above scenario.

    What happens in the 11th year?

    11th year, employer cashes in ten year mature zero coupon bond that is now worth $100,000, employee receives $100,000 wage, buys employer ten year $100,000 zero coupon bond that cost $10,000.

    IS THAT FREE LABOR?

    Did the two partys help themselves by helping each other?

    The employer CASHES a $100,000 zero and pays $100,000. What did it cost the employer?

    Over the ten year initial period of employment it cost the employer in the scenario $1,000,000. $100,000 X 10 = $1,000,000.

    Let's say the employer and employee agreed to no longer do business after the tenth year. The employer would receive $100,000 each year for ten years when the zero bond matured for a total of $1,000,000.

    The employer invested $1,000,000 in his employee over the ten year period of time and will now receive his total investment back over the next ten year period.

    IS THAT FREE LABOR?

    Question: didn't the employer receive a TAX DEDUCTION OF $100,000 EACH YEAR BECAUSE OF WAGES PAID?

    ISN"T THAT BETTER THAN JUST FREE LABOR? A $100,000 tax deduction plus free labor.

    Why would any businessman EVER quit this concept after reaching the end of the tenth year?

    Have any of you non-thinking devotees of conventional wisdom ever spend a single momemt trying to help yourself by helping another?

    God gave us all the greatest treasure there is known as a brain. We all have the power of reason.

    WHY DON"T WE USE IT?

    In the scenario displayed above I used zero coupon bonds as the RECAPTURE vehicle. Any financial value that can be purchased at discount will work just like the bonds.

    Research, study, identify, THINK.

    There is a minimum wage because mankind is greedy, uncaring, disrespectful, etc. AND BECAUSE MAN DOES NOT THINK.

    The BUY/SALE transaction known as employment is loaded with inherent values. No one has ever given these natural values the respect due them.

    Everything in life, as we know it to be, contains value. Value is acknowledged by usage. Whenever such usage is singular in purpose, value is accorded a one dimension respect while the search for true value is stopped.

    We humans are the most sinful, dispespectful morons God ever created.

    NOP - pronounced nope. The NOP party. The NO Party = NOP. BTW, Boner from Ohio still sucks.

    by 0hio on Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 09:44:42 AM PDT

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