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If you don't like this diary I'll leave forever, never coming back, blah blah blah.  Ok, now that that's out of the way I have something that's been bugging me.  See, I watch this show, Lost, and it raises a political issue so strongly and strangely, and yet no one talks about it.  Granted, it's just a pulp sci-fi show, but, it's not like people don't talk about it. It's popular all over the world.

Maybe it has been talked about here, I don't come that often anymore.  I am taking a break from most politics (well, not local).  In fact, if I break any current rules, forgive me.  But is this about Abortion and the TV show Lost.

Now, if you are not familiar with Lost, I'm not trying to sell the show. I can't imagine why you would care about this, unless you are particularly concerned with possibly anti-choice themes in popular media. So, I'm going to assume you have seen the show. I'm curious what you think about the issue.

So then, as you'll know, there is an issue with childbirth on the island.  Pregnant women die if their child was concieved on the island... in the second trimester.  The more I think about this I think it must have been mentioned here.  Perhaps people will be like "it's only a show", I know, "Fountainhead" is only a book.  

But I'm ahead of myself.  This is a world wide phenomenon, this show.  And no one, ever, mentions the possibility of aborting the babies to save the lives of the mothers. I brought the issue up in a formum about the show once... no one really even got it.

Right now I'm down with the flu, and I have been watching me some Lost, I love pulp sci-fi... it's pretty good for that genre... and all the silly mysteries are entertaining to a sci-fi lover even if I know a better sort of sci-fi that's actually literature (Lem, LeGuin, H.G.Wells, etc).

On topic: I yesterday watched a season three (iirc) episode titled, "DOC", which stands for "Date of Conception". The tension revolves around that fact that babies conceived on the island, lead to fatal pregnancies, and Sun, who is pregnant, might have gotten pregnant off island, from a lover, or on island, from her husband.  She could not concieve with her husband off island (they are almost explicit that it's Jin's sperm count, which, btw, the island enhances, odd thing to get into a story line, but as I said the fetility issue is big, there is a whole character devoted to the issue).

Sun even mentions the obvious dilemma... she loses either way, either the baby is not Jin's, and he will find out about her indiscretion although now they are in love again, or it is Jin's, and evidently she will die. She's there with a DOCTOR, a fertility expert and OBGYN (or equiv, not sure they say)... doing the ultrasound to determine the date of conception.  The doctor says nothing except that she's sorry.  She's sorry... that now Sun will have to die.

In a later episode, good news, they are getting rescued, Sun will live, but Sun decides she doesn't believe the fatality thing, doesn't think the people have come to rescue them, and she wants to go hide in the jungle with some other survivors that don't trust the rescuers.  Juliet (the doctor, why am I telling you this, you know) goes so far as to tell Jin about Sun's affair, just to be a jerk, make Jin go back to the beach where they are to be rescued, hoping Sun will follow and leave the island.

Hello... those people were not there to rescue them, they were a mortal danger, as sure as staying on the island.  So... where's the recommendation, doc? "Sorry, in this case, you die."  Only the most psychotic anti-abortion nuts think that way, ever.

Sun cries a combination of "finally we have a baby coming" and "I'm going to die". I thought it was good acting.  But I'm thinking, um... HELLO!? why not an abortion. And yes I thought it the first time I saw the show (just started watching in the break before season five)

Now, granted it's a remote island, but again, I'm assuming you've seen the show, they've got a full complements of medical supplies, they do an appendectomy, and in DOC as I said they determine the date of conception using a full on Ultrasound machine, Juliet is a fertility doctor with not just doctor supplies, but a full lab.  Abortion is not difficult when done by a professional, I feel it's obvious enough to not have to say.  But there I said it.  WTF?!

I mean, even among the anti-choice crowd, "life of the mother" is a very common and obvious reason. Many people wonder about the many mysteries on Lost, now to be solved, if at all, in the final season.  There are time travel mysteries, myterious smokey monsters (turns out the polar bears had a very mundane explanation... but not their appearance in Tunisia)... but for me, the biggest myster of Lost, that I would like to see explained, is why not save the mother's life?

Originally posted to GBCW on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 04:56 PM PST.



Why No Mention of Abortion to Save The Mother?

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (8+ / 0-)

    ... or I'll leave forever and never come back (and you'll be sorry).

    by GBCW on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 04:56:26 PM PST

  •  This Diary Is More Disjointed Then The Show (6+ / 0-)


    "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

    by webranding on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 05:02:05 PM PST

    •  I've never seen the show (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      murrayewv, LynneK, soms, melpomene1

      but from this (admittedly disjonited) description, it sounds like that would just screw with the plot line, leaving no horrible dilemma to be solved.

      Stop Rob "The Job Outsourcer" Portman. Jennifer Brunner for Senate

      by anastasia p on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 05:03:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  are you fine with that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        people using "abortion is not an option" to further a show?  

        I mean, I still enjoy the show, but I don't really think that's ok.

        •  Did they actually say (0+ / 0-)

          "abortion is not an option" or was it just never brought up as an option?  If they presented it as not an option, why did they say it was not? It sounds to me just like they wrote themselves into a corner and needed drama that the option of abortion would have eliminated. So it doesn't matter if I am "OK with it," especially since I don't watch the show (or any show, because I have been too lazy to hook up my digital box for the last seven months). It's just another half-assed TV show plot line to me.

          Stop Rob "The Job Outsourcer" Portman. Jennifer Brunner for Senate

          by anastasia p on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 05:14:01 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  they never bring it up (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mamamedusa, mieprowan

            but they bring up that they are trying to fix the problem, and women are dying 100% of the time.

            Well, I don't really care, if I didn't watch the show, I wouldn't care at all.  An argument can be made about popular culture FRAMES, however.  But I'm not making them.  Still, I think it's pretty irresponsible. There would be a lot of ways to deal with this, they could say abortions are fatal as well, I mean, it's all magic as to why the births are fatal... or give the local inhabitants strong convictions that they should die and let a baby die rather than abort.  But granted, it's just another stupid thing on TV, all round the world.

      •  This Show Is As Complex As Any Ever On TV (5+ / 0-)

        what is left out here, and gosh I can't believe I am even responding is one of the main characters has maybe died at least once (or twice) and rose to life. He was a paraplegic when he came to the island but could walk after getting on the island. Now he is leading a group of true believers. Did I also mention how much time travel there is.

        With all that said, this is worth a watch: Everything You Need To Know About Lost In 8:15.

        It is funny. It is accurate. It is interesting. And to be blunt, I got my 63 year old mother watching after the third year when for a two week stay at my house she watched Season I and II on DVD.

        "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

        by webranding on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 05:12:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  what would it take (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slinkerwink, LynneK, mieprowan

      for you to get the point?

      you're comment makes no sense to me.  It's not disjointed, it's just written to convey a point.  Would you have me take a lot of time, put in images of characters and ... I mean, what's to get, the show says women have to die if the pregnancy is going to lead to death.

      You don't get that?

      •  It Is Space And Time, Space And Time (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Greg in TN

        You know you don't have to use the Google for very long to see the first six minutes of the Tuesday show right. Right? Again, space and time.

        "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

        by webranding on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 05:14:35 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I know (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I'm going to watch the show.  I was not surprised that fans of the show, on a forum, last year, when I first saw this episode and this issue, were not interested.  It's just a TV show, I only asked to see if they did care or thought of it.

          They were all, "whatever", and I understand that.  I understand the very well, what that means.

          Now, I'm seeing if pro-choice activists care... or, well, if daily kos sees and issue.  By no means are you bound to, at all, I'm curious what you think, not making you think something.

          •  Hey You Didn't Attack Me, I Didn't Attack You (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Greg in TN, GBCW

            I just don't get the takeaway you have. I could if I thought about the show for more then a few find at least if not more troubling issues.

            "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

            by webranding on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 05:23:24 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  TV is sneaky and extremely influential (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        and you are right on. Even though you supposedly left.

        End corporate personhood - overturn Santa Clara v Southern Pacific

        by mieprowan on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 07:01:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I think it's not that the writers or producers... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    are fundies, but that they think it will cause them to lose advertising revenues.

    Take a moment each day to appreciate how amazing the mere fact of your existence is.

    by Shaviv on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 05:02:26 PM PST

    •  it's way more unbelievable (5+ / 0-)

      than time travel or smoke monsters or immortals that an american doctor wouldn't think of abortion to save the life of the mother in an assuredly fatal pregnancy.

    •  Not likely. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      oscarsmom, LynneK

      They would lose a plot device meant to create drama where none would exist.

      "I'm just sayin... don't bring that horse in here!" -- Cassandra

      by tc59 on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 05:18:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  ok then think what that means (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mamamedusa, mieprowan

        for me, this plot device has NO IMPACT.  I know, they could simply abort.  I know this.

        In fact, they look like idiots to me, and the plot device backfires, they seem unsympathetic.

        It appears to me that way because, I seriously pro-choice, and it doesn't take much thinking for me to assume the proper medical response to sure death in pregnancy is abortion.  The baby is not going to live anyway, the fact is, you are are not going to have a baby, you are having a fatal condition.  A curable one.

        So does this mean that America is not pro-choice?

  •  You Can't Save Mothers' Lives (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wu ming, barbwires, Temmoku

    I can't remember the last time I saw an abortion mentioned as a choice taken. 20, 30 years?

    Not sure I've ever heard of such a thing.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 05:03:04 PM PST

    •  what do you mean (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      on TV?

    •  You're right...its been a while! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LynneK, mamamedusa

      Seems like the 70's was the last time a TV show had its all about keeping the matter what...obviously there are no mitigating circumstances or issues with carrying to maybe this LOST topic is the toe in toe door(?) or not.

      •  true (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        maybe that's it... maybe it's more taboo than I'd come to think.  I can't think off the top of my  head of an example, though I would have thought I could, but the issue is not even dealt with, let alone ending in abortion.... hmmm, I'll have to try to think of examples.

        I guess I was thinking if a show like House or something had this issue, they would mention abortion, but then, they never have that issue, now do they.

        •  Six Feet Under (0+ / 0-)

          The younger sister has an abortion.  It's fairly matter of fact when she does it, but we do get to see something in later episodes about the ghost of the baby when there are all kinds of family ghost things going on.

          •  House (0+ / 0-)

            Also had least one episode in which the mother's life could be saved only through abortion - an abortion the mother categorically did not want despite the pregnancy killing her.  (He has also counseled women towards abortion in a date-rape episode.)  

            Of the two episodes I recall, at least once the outcome ended in abortion, and at least once it did not.  My understanding is that there is at least one other episode also dealing with abortion, where House counsels abortion.

            OTOH, Gregory House MD is played as a devout atheist, so perhaps that's why the shows writers are more comfortable writing the show with House's team routinely raising the option of abortion as a first choice whenever a medical condition threatening the life of the mother arises.  Perhaps they have fallen victim to stereotypes of atheists and how they might, or might not, feel about abortion.

            If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

            by shanikka on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 11:22:22 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  There's a joke among soap opera watchers (5+ / 0-)

        that abortion clinics could could make a fortune if they just changed their fees:

        $50 for an abortion
        $500 for running out in tears, sobbing, "I just can't go through with it!"

        I shall die, but that is all that I shall do for Death; I am not on his payroll. - Edna St. Vincent Millay

        by Tara the Antisocial Social Worker on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 05:15:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  It happens on soaps (0+ / 0-)

      Of course the woman is always overcome with terrible guilt yada yada yada.

      Save the parrots: Drink shade-grown coffee!

      by oscarsmom on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 07:51:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  me too actually (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      otherwise I wouldn't care, there is a lot of stupid fiction out there, but, if I didn't like it, I'd assume this was propaganda instead of wonder.

      •  I tend to think LOST is a progressive show (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Greg in TN

        but maybe that's just me! :)

        •  I'm a big fan (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wayoutinthestix, Florida4Obama

          I have watched comicon pannels, listend to a few of Damon and Carleton (the producers) podcasts.

          They seem liberal to me.

          Abrams, the guy that just made the new Star Trek movie and some other good stuff... was one of the creators... they do seem progressive.

          Lost will raise to literature if they KNOW this is one of the shows mysteries.  If they answer that question, why that was off the table, like Sun's religion, and Juliet's-I-can-only-imaginve... maybe turns out they are all very ... who knows.  Or... well I don't anticipate it.

          Even a nod would impress me.  I mean, whatever, it's just a show, people do things, very cheap and stupid things, even counterproductive, to propel "drama"... but this is to me, almost irresponsible.

  •  You've GOT to be kidding me. (7+ / 0-)

    Really.  You watch LOST and this is what you come away with?

    Some things for you to consider:

    (1) The "others" are trying to populate, i.e. HAVE BABIES.  Remember? They tended to steal them when they could.  Juliet, a fertility specialist was brought there to see if she could help them HAVE BABIES.

    (2) Sun WANTS the child, especially when she knew that it was Jin's.  I am sure that Juliet and Sun would have talked about the possibility of having an abortion, but things like helicopters full of mercenaries hell-bent on killing everyone, pregnant or not, kinda took precedent.  Oh, that and the time travel and atomic bombs and 400 year old men and smoke monsters.

    (3) The whole set-up was a meaningless plot device meant to create dramatic tension out of thin air.

    (4) If the survivors were supposedly on a "three hour tour", then why did Thurston Howell have brought suitcases full of money?

    "I'm just sayin... don't bring that horse in here!" -- Cassandra

    by tc59 on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 05:15:59 PM PST

    •  Howell Always Travelled With Money (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wu ming, LynneK, mamamedusa

      but now is not the time for my theory of Gilligan as representative of the working man, who didn't WANT to get off the island, and sabotaged it purposely, because as badly as he was treated, his life was better on the island.

      I think you are making too many excuses... they were not running from mercenaries in DOC, she says, "I'm going to lose either way".  Can you really say that anyone smart enough to write Lost... wouldn't know this other possiblity?  There are a million ways to deal with it.

      As I said below, they could have made it that something about the pregnancy made abortion fatal as well.  Right?

      It's weird, just give me that it's weird.  I get a lot of other things from lost, I'll discuss them with you at lostpedia, ok, this is politics.

      •  Nah, focus on #3 above. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Greg in TN, mamamedusa, GBCW

        I love the show but it is not all that well thought-out.  Ana Lucia? Mr. Eko? Why spend so much time on those two & then kill them off?  And where the heck is Cindy and the kids that were with her?   Why was she not shocked to see Jack in a cage?  And all that drama about Libby being in the same hospital as Hurley? and that went nowhere.  And Shannon (nuff said).

        I think a lot of the show is written about a week ahead of time & they try to create  tension that, in the end, doesn't mean anything.  Trying to put political intentions on them is silly.

        "I'm just sayin... don't bring that horse in here!" -- Cassandra

        by tc59 on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 05:47:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I assume you are right (0+ / 0-)

          that pisses me off, because that means they know better and don't realize  using conservative frames to get rich is evil... at the very least low watt evil.

        •  Ana Lucia was killed off because the actress (0+ / 0-)

          was partying very hard in Hawaii, got a DUI, and into some other trouble that they didn't want to deal with....

          A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives ~ Jackie Robinson's epitaph

          by k8dd8d on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 06:56:37 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  actually, just Wikipedia'd her (0+ / 0-)

            and the actress that played Libby also had a DUI in at the same time.  Producers don't like that stuff...

            In 2005, while filming Lost in Hawaii, Rodriguez was pulled over by Honolulu police multiple times; she was cited for driving at 83 mph (134 km/h) in a 55 mph (89 km/h) zone on Oahu on November 1, and was fined $357, paid a $300 fine for driving 90 mph (140 km/h) in a 35 mph (56 km/h) zone on October 20, was fined $197 for going 80 mph (130 km/h) in a 50 mph (80 km/h) zone on August 24.[28] On December 1, 2005, Rodriguez and her Lost co-star Cynthia Watros were pulled over (separately) and arrested for driving under the influence.[29] Rodriguez pleaded not guilty when arraigned,[30] but on the day of her trial in April 2006, she pleaded guilty to one charge of driving under the influence. She chose to pay a $500 fine and spend five days in jail instead of doing 240 hours of community service.[26] Rodriguez cited her high doses of allergy-relieving steroids as part of the reason for her erratic behavior.[31] Because the Kailua incident was a violation of her Los Angeles probation, Rodriguez was sentenced to 60 days in jail, a 30 day alcohol rehabilitation program and another 30 days of community service, including work for Mothers Against Drunk Driving, by a judge in Los Angeles on May 1, 2006.[32] Because of overcrowding, she was released from jail on the same day she entered. She wrote about the experience on her blog.[

            A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives ~ Jackie Robinson's epitaph

            by k8dd8d on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 07:00:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  My point is that their writing (0+ / 0-)

              has more to do with their immediate needs than any serious attempt to prosthelytize.

              "I'm just sayin... don't bring that horse in here!" -- Cassandra

              by tc59 on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 07:23:46 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  no doubt (0+ / 0-)

                that option is in the poll (though personally I voted for the Juliet educated in another dimension)... I do believe that explains it.

                HOWEVER: it doesn't help me... so who does it help the show with?  Why would a "choice-is-not-an-option" frame be the good selling thing?  And if so, isn't your doctor an expert, who has to suggest and abortion, even if the woman won't do it?  And if not, somehow explained.

                They are serving some type of person that won't go "what?"... that person scares me.

                Women don't die to have babies.

        •  the actor who played eko's father died (0+ / 0-)

          and he had to leave hawaii for the funeral, so they had to kill the character. ana lucia and libby were due to DUIs messing with filming time, IIRC.

          surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

          by wu ming on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 07:25:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Yes this (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      citizenx, GBCW, k8dd8d

      In at least one case (Sabine) the show tells us that she knew the risks and wanted to be pregnant anyway.  Babies HAVE been successfully born on the island before, although maybe not since the late 70s.  And, the Others under Ben is hardly a pro-choice organization in any context - I expect that if Other women do get pregnant unintentionally, Ben may not be willing to allow an abortion, because he suspects he is somehow responsible for the problem and because he wants to further research into its solution.

      Proudly eukaryotic since 1980.

      by hei on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 06:07:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sun doesn't trust Juliet at all. (4+ / 0-)

    She worries about what Juliet tells her, but not enough to abort a baby she desperately wants. She never suffers a single symptom, and she's seen Claire successfully give birth on the Island.

    Jack's appendectomy was a nightmare scenario, performed only to save his life, and if it weren't for the Island's healing powers it would have killed him. Sun was never convinced that her life was in danger.

    Plus, I seriously doubt there was any specialized abortion equipment in the medical hatch, since Ben was purposefully sending women to their deaths to try and tackle the Island's fertility problem... to say nothing of the risk to the Beach folk of getting caught in the medical hatch by the Others.

    •  but why (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LynneK, mamamedusa

      doesn't juliet mention the possibility of abortion, or alternately, why it's impossible.

      This show could use anything for that, the abortions could be presented as fatal.

      I guess they didn't want to mention something controversial... but then, why center the whole show around something, fatal pregnancies, and not think you had to face that issue.

      Ok, the show has many centers, but there is the statue and the high sperm count and the on and on about fertility and death, but babies can't be aborted... they can die, the show has Juliet recounting she watched nine babies and mothers die, but to watch only the babies die, that's too much.

      Mother should go down with the ship, I guess... and that's fine.

      Anyway, I am looking forward to the show, I'm not a boycotter type, I'm a "thinks that make me go wtf" type.  Still, are we not progressive when we watch tv? (on the internet at ABC.COM.

      I have no tv.

  •  If she had an abortion (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    oscarsmom, LynneK, mamamedusa, GBCW

    then it would have freed up time for them to explain some of the weird shit that is going on and the writers haven't figured that out yet.

    btw - it is good to see you back here gbcw.

  •  The simple answer is the Island will kill the (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    oscarsmom, k8dd8d, mieprowan

    woman if an abortion is attempted just as she dies giving birth. I think you're fussing over nothing! It's a great show; can't wait for premiere this week.

  •  Last show idea to resolve it all (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    And just then they all got run over by a bus.

    Don't do vibrato. There'll be plenty of that naturally later when you're old and shaky. (Miles Davis, quoting his music instructor)

    by dov12348 on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 05:50:24 PM PST

  •  where, exactly, can you get an abortion on the (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Greg in TN
    island?  they're in the middle of freaking nowhere.  Especially with Sun--it's not like there's anyone qualified to perform the procedure on the island, so it would just be a ridiculously risky and unproven option to try.
    •  Among the Others there are theoretically options (0+ / 0-)

      Juliet could probably do it, Ethan could probably do it.  

      With Sun that's more complicated, but for the women among the Others who died it would have been plausible.  I suspect Ben wouldn't allow it.

      Proudly eukaryotic since 1980.

      by hei on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 06:15:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I pray they add this to Ben's evil... (0+ / 0-)

        ... history and deeds.  

        That would explain a lot... but probably, make the show about abortion too much for them to dare.

        But can we get "no, if you abort, the woman dies of internal bleeding, it's something gone wrong at conception as well as the second trimester"

        Then, juliet wouldn't really know that Sun will survive if off the island at the time she says it, but as that's what happens, we know it's true, you can have birth off the island of a child concieved on island.

        So why the hell don't they let their women go have the babies off the island?!!?  They have had a friggen submarine!

    •  do you watch the show (3+ / 0-)

      there is a spine surgeon and a OBGYN on the island.

      Juliets takes out an apendix... how difficult is an abortion... they have operating rooms... JACK REMOVES A SPINAL TUMOR on the island!

    •  The others have a Planned Parenthood office nt (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
  •  seriously, you are overthinking this (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    it's freaking science fiction.  really, it's a TV show.

    Now, if you want to talk about Jacob and the fake Locke, that's a conversation I'd want to have ;-)

    A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives ~ Jackie Robinson's epitaph

    by k8dd8d on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 07:04:00 PM PST

    •  me too (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      there's always lostpedia... but conservative framing is conservative framing... and it could be explained away if they even thought it was an issue at all.

      someone doesn't think abortion is an option, spinal surgery, sure, apendectomy, no problem... but I agree fully it's just a show.  If I didn't like the show, I'd not even wonder, but as I said above, I would also suspect someone has an opinion that is behind this, consciously, or unconsciously.

      And it is an anti-choice framing, I don't think that's debatable, to not even bring it up.  If they brought up and explained it, fine, but not enough of an option to mentions, by accident or design, it means something.

      But... it's just pulp sci-fi, it doesn't mean much, just "something".

  •  my take is that the storyline demanded it (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wayoutinthestix, mamamedusa

    although it did vex me as well. i guess the whole "others want to establish a permanent, self-sustaining population on the island" line made abortion problematic on a community-wide scale (although not, one would think, on an individual one).

    they're ham-handed a lot of the time, and tend to have issues with female characters from time to time. claire in particular just ceased to become an interesting character after aaron was born, although once would make the argument that the writers had the same problem with charlie as well.

    surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

    by wu ming on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 07:22:41 PM PST

    •  true (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wu ming

      there is some running out of breath on the show, could explain this.

      I think for the other's it's easilly explained if they want... they got pregnant on purpose to try to save their people as such.

      Sun, they didn't explain, and they could easily have her not believe in it, Korea is a very religious nation.  Juliet not suggesting it is harder.

      For the record, I do think it's just giving in to what seems easiest for what was really important to them, but that does lower the quality of their thinking in my view.  I'm not saying it would be suggested because I believe in it as a choice, but because this is the 21'st century, spinal surgeons, research doctors... it's such a standard option in such a case at least for Sun.  Their doctors are generally good, to not think of that was hard to watch.

      •  i do think it speaks generally to the hegemony of (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        pro-life even among liberal pro-choice people, especially in a media like movies or television. there's a lot of internalized unconscious attitudes that conflict directly with people's consciously held positions. abortion always being "bad" or tragic in storylines where it exists at all.

        i suspect there's a big plot line still waiting to drop on the whole innoculations/quarantine signs on hatch doors/fertility problems/baby snatching/dharma/others thing, and the nonexistence of abortion may tie into that. it may be the others don't have doctors trained in abortion, juliet is a fertility specialist but that's not the same manner of procedure (after all, not all OBGYNs get abortion training these days, because of pro-life pressure). they may not have the facilities (although you're right to ask WHY they don't).

        i can also see the writers erroneously assuming that koreans would be antiabortion because it's a conservative culture, just as they erroneously assumed that jin would be pissed about his wife wearing a bathing suit, instead of that, say, she wanted to walk next to him instead of behind or hold hands (both things i've seen older conservative rural koreans get indignant about). and then there's that awful thai phuket mystical oriental whore tattoo artist (in chinese, no less!) debacle of an episode. while clever, the writers tend to reveal themselves as being out of their element from time to time.

        surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

        by wu ming on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 07:57:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  additionally (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Corporate Dog

        i see claire's pre-island pregnancy story as far more damning WRT your diary's thesis.

        surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

        by wu ming on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 07:59:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  how so (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wu ming

          first... I FORGOT they did deal with abortion, and she was totally for it.  She kept it only from love, he's like "we can make it"... then he bails on her.  Sadly that kind of story line is not very far fetched at all.

          •  hmm, i guess i need to rewatch it. (0+ / 0-)

            i suppose it was late term by then, and no studio in the world would touch that issue, cursed baby or no.

            surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

            by wu ming on Tue Feb 02, 2010 at 12:57:22 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  right (0+ / 0-)

              it was late term, but even I wouldn't want to touch that issue if I could avoid it... you've already fell in love with your baby, it's almost ready, it's not too far fetched to skip the issue and her life was not in particular danger.  She intended to give it up for adoption.

  •  Why is everyone dancing around the elephant... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wu ming, wayoutinthestix, mamamedusa, GBCW

    ... in the room?

    No TV show in the modern era will ever depict an abortion or discuss with equanimity the idea of an abortion for any reason whatsoever because the religious right would have a fit, boycott the show, and cause no end of ruckus. And no producer would want to risk that.

    "I was actually born on Krypton and sent here by my father Jor-El to save the Planet Earth."

    by lesliet on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 07:32:34 PM PST

    •  it's funny (0+ / 0-)

      they would go so right up close to it... and that liberals are not offended much at all, it would seem, and will make no ruckus at all.  And I won't either, but I don't believe in that sort of ruckus, I believe in commentary.  Talking about what it means, exposing the truth.

    •  not *entirely* accurate (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      shanikka, Mayfly

      example: Battlestar Galactica - if you've seen the show you may remember it, and if not I'll spare you the details, but it came up more than once, as you'd expect with a show focused around the end of civilization as we know it.

      example 2: Law and Order (regular, SVU, etc...) multiple instances, both on the original and the spin-offs, though the most discussion of the merits et al. occurred - not surprisingly - on SVU.

      example 3: weeds (which I'll admittedly count as example 2.5, given it's on HBO, and they skewered the religious right pretty seriously from the get-go)

       I'm not trying to pretend the networks and especially their advertising don't have a bit of a skew (see the present / past few superbowls for obvious examples), but it's not absolute, and it is changing.  Consider for just a moment that no one had any intent of releasing Creation in American cinemas, and when demand for the film was demonstrated it was in fact released.  A small run to be sure, but it did make an appearance where none was planned.

       The easiest way to get better coverage of liberal / progressive viewpoints?  Let the networks know you appreciate seeing them, and make them profitable.  Every time you hear about a boycot from some right wing ideologue, watch the show, and write the network and express your dedication to watching well written and well balanced television, and thank them for showing it.  If the show blows, write them and say you're looking forward to more balanced television from them in the future, and they've gained a loyal viewer.  Jericho (another example for the above, by the by) was brought back for a second season because CBS received metric tons of nuts in the mail - the same can be done for issues and framing, they just have to know we care.

      "All who think cannot but see there is a sanction like that of religion which binds us in partnership in the serious work of the world." -- Ben Franklin

      by jmkiru on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 08:01:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Methinks I've seen Godfather 2 on TV as well. (0+ / 0-)

        Ironically, my wife informed me that she was pregnant with our daughter one evening, while I was watching it.

        Corporate Dog

        We didn't elect Obama to be an expedient president. We elected him to be a great one. -- Eugene Robinson

        by Corporate Dog on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 08:02:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Not 100% True (0+ / 0-)

      In addition to the examples listed by jmkiru below, the show "House" has dealt with abortion as a first, optimal choice several times.  And at least once, abortion was actually chosen.

      If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

      by shanikka on Mon Feb 01, 2010 at 05:13:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good for House, then (0+ / 0-)

        I must have missed those episodes. And the others listed above. Glad to know my comment wasn't 100% true. But there is a very strong bias, and I feel it's gotten worse over time, not better. I'm thinking back to the show 'Maude', where, in 1972, the 47-year-old character chose to have an abortion after much soul-searching. I can't imagine something like that being on TV these days. (It was pretty controversial then as well, but at least it was done.)

        "I was actually born on Krypton and sent here by my father Jor-El to save the Planet Earth."

        by lesliet on Mon Feb 01, 2010 at 05:18:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I don't remember that episode (0+ / 0-)

        funny I said, "a show like House"... perhaps in my subconscious, I've seen a bunch of House (thank you Hulu, legal and fun!)

        •  Abortion Was Chosen (0+ / 0-)

          In the date rape episode, upon House's advice, despite initial objections by the victim.  It was also advised by House in the episode with the middle aged actress whose fetus was killing her, but not chosen in the end because Cutty intervened and was able to stabilize the patient long enough for the problem with the fetus to be corrected through intrauterine surgery.  

          If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

          by shanikka on Mon Feb 01, 2010 at 04:08:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Don't forget (0+ / 0-)

    the mysteriously magic numbers.

    Well, hello Mrs. Cleaver, and how is young Theodore today? -- Eddie Haskell, early NeoCon prototype

    by wayoutinthestix on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 07:48:51 PM PST

  •  The island... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wu ming, JanetT in MD, GBCW

    ... is a mysterious, forboding entity that nobody seems to fully comprehend.

    And not one of the characters on the show (with the possible exception of Locke) is all that eager to just accept whatever fate the island has in store for them.

    Juliet the fertility doctor is determined to try and fix whatever it is that's causing the pre-natal deaths. It's her white whale. So, even in a situation where abortion might be the best way to save the mother's life, Juliet probably isn't going to offer that up as an option. She's just unethical enough to take advantage of a mother's desire to have a child, in order to give herself one more guinea pig to work with.

    In the case of Sun, that baby represents hope. Hope that she and her (at the time) estranged husband would work things out, coupled with the hope that they would be rescued from the island. Aborting it would be accepting defeat on both fronts.

    And then we get back to the island. The place where that which dies doesn't stay dead. The place where corpses tend to have conversations with the living. The place with some very esoteric rules about killing.

    I say this partially tongue-in-cheek, but if you're stranded there, and an abortion might be your best bet, but you've seen all SORTS of incredibly weird shit since your plane crashed, do YOU really want to be the one to test whether or not the island takes a Republican view on abortion?

    Corporate Dog

    We didn't elect Obama to be an expedient president. We elected him to be a great one. -- Eugene Robinson

    by Corporate Dog on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 07:57:39 PM PST

    •  In fact, their behavior is central to the theme. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Fate and destiny dictate that Sun and her child WILL die.

      And yet, neither Sun nor Juliette are willing to just roll over and accept that fate.

      I'd say it has so much less to do with conservative politics, and so much more to do with those central Lost themes of determinism and free will.

      Corporate Dog

      We didn't elect Obama to be an expedient president. We elected him to be a great one. -- Eugene Robinson

      by Corporate Dog on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 08:12:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  For the same reason that Juno didn't... (0+ / 0-)

    .... the whole storyline is about the risk to Sun, about being pregnant - the whole point to the plot is being pregnant...

    Therefore if she was allowed to abort, the sense of risk, of conflict, would be ended (and entirely too easily from the scriptwriter's point of view).

    A continuing storyline TV series needs a continuing plot, which means a conflict or risk -- If Juno had decided to terminate her pregnancy, the movie would have been over. Or the story would have had to been centered on something else entirely. Since the story was ABOUT her deciding to carry to term and all that, abortion was not an option because of the needs of the plot.

    If Sun had chosen to (or been able to) abort, end of plotline. Either then you have to change the storyline to be about the abortion itself (which is probably more than the writers wanted to do), or you lose a really good plot dilemma for a much-loved character.  

    Which is probably why we see more stories about women struggling with pregnancy issues deciding to continue on regardless of risk, etc. rather than taking the perhaps-more-sensible path of abortion -- because abortion DOES offer a practical solution, but also in the process ends that plot device too easily. Which in real life is the entire POINT, but doesn't make for good scriptwriting.  

    •  right (0+ / 0-)

      but I have to think, if they were not affraid to mention it... they could have Sun not want to abort for some reason, or extend the complication to abortion procedures.  It's sci-fi, it doesn't take much to answer it in a way that serves the plot... that's the point of speculative fiction... "what if people died from pregnancies but still had to try so their people didn't die out, and for some reason Sun would not abort, and by the way, taking pregnant women off the island to have their babies as soon as they showed symptoms, until they could push those symptoms back.

      Thing is, it's a pretty practical show in a lot of sci-fi respects.  Pulp it is, but high-pulp because they keep track of details and details mean things.

  •  GBCW: (0+ / 0-)


    They were masterpieces of their genre!!!

    Nice to see you back, BTW. I hope you're here so you can...well, you know! ;-)

    "Women shouldn't be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of women." droogie6655321

    by earicicle on Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 10:59:22 PM PST

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