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As a "tech geek" and developer, I think kos is wrong about a couple of key points he made in his post this morning regarding the iPad.

***

Closed System = Stability & Speed; Closed Systems > Open Systems

Mac OS9 was one of the most buggy, unstable and slow operating systems ever in existence and it was a closed system created by Apple. Mac OSX is built off of UNIX, a completely open source operating system, and it is easily the most stable and usable consumer operating system available. The openness of an operating system / platform does not dictate its stability or speed, quality of programming does. It's ridiculous to imply that closed systems are required (or even often result in) stable & fast systems. In fact, the reverse is often true.

My Xbox, despite being made by Microsoft, is stable, fast, and runs my games perfectly. How could a company that gave us Windows build such a great gaming platform? Because it was a closed system. Able to control its hardware and software, Microsoft avoided the instability created by the endless hardware/software configurations found on PCs.

I won't disagree on the hardware configurations issue. That has been much of the success of gaming platforms, Apple desktops, laptops, and iTouch devices. But Mac OSX makes no fewer software configuration options available to programmers than Microsoft Windows does. Apple just created a more efficient and user-friendly platform to do it in, hiding a lot of the technical detail away from the average user.

There are many reasons why the XBox has a great user experience, despite being created by Microsoft, the most important being:

  • Having been designed from the ground up specifically for one purpose: gaming. A single-purpose platform will almost always outperform a multi-purpose platform in executing that one purpose.
  • Having none of the backwards-compatibility concerns that Windows has due to its very large enterprise customer base.

Neither of these things has anything to do with whether a system is closed or not. Microsoft could open source the operating system, remove any sort of developer's license required to create a game, etc. -- make it completely open -- and the XBox would be no less a usable or stable a system than it is today. If a developer created a horribly written game that caused the XBox to crash constantly, guess what? People wouldn't buy it. Problem solved. If Microsoft was concerned about the consumer confidence in the quality of the games they purchase, they could create an optional "XBox Certified" label where developers would pay Microsoft to review and guarantee the quality of their game.

Its really ironic that, after defending closed systems, Kos goes on to bash Flash:

The day HTML 5 fully kills off Flash will be the day that 95% of my infrequent crashes are eliminated. Currently, I reboot my MacBook Pro about once every 2-3 months (mostly after software updates), while I have applications crash maybe once every two weeks (mostly MS Word when working on huge files, or Safari/Chrome when I have too many windows open with Flash playing).

FLASH IS A CLOSED SYSTEM!!! HTML5 IS AN OPEN SYSTEM!!! HTML5 video technologies are open source technologies. They are more efficient, less buggy and easier to use BECAUSE they are open source. Literally thousands of developers have collaborated in their development, ironing out every little bug they can find. Open source systems work with a speed and efficiency that no company, including Adobe, can compete with.

***

Ask Permission Environments & Walled Gardens

The tech community is highly polarized over this machine, with many angry with the machine's closed system. Software for the machine must be approved by Apple (though with over 180,000 applications for the iPhone and iPad, it's not exactly tough to get that approval).

Really Kos? How many applications for the iTouch platform have you written and submitted to Apple for approval? Speaking from personal experience, it is not at all easy to get that approval. I've waited as long as 7 weeks for an application of mine to get approved. The entire time not knowing if it would be approved in a couple days, a couple weeks or a couple months. It was just whenever Apple got around to doing it. And even then you have no idea whether they will approve it or not.  Endless numbers of developers have submitted applications to Apple for approval only to have them rejected with ZERO explanation as to why. That's right, Apple has a completely opaque approval process. You could spend months working on a new application, investing thousands of hours of your time. But its worth it right? because you're going to make lots of money selling it. Then you submit it to Apple and they reject it without any explanation as to why or as to how to fix it so that it will be approved. All that time, money and effort has gone to complete waste.  Apple refuses to even publish a document that clearly outlines on what basis applications will be evaluated.  You just have to hope that Apple will be okay with whatever you create.

Earlier this last week, one very well-known iPhone developer and one of the most popular iPhone development bloggers announced that he was quitting iPhone development and shutting down his blog. In his goodbye letter (that you should read in its entirety) he explained why:

Ask permission environments crush creativity and innovation. In healthy environments, when would-be innovators/creators identify opportunities the only thing that stands between the idea and its realization is work. In the iPhone OS environment when you see an opportunity, you put in work first, ask Apple’s permission and then, only after gaining their approval, your idea can be realized.

I’ve always worked at the edge; it’s where the interesting opportunities live. None of the startups I’ve created would have been possible in an ask permission environment.

...

Early last decade, at roughly the same time and in parallel, I created a company like PayPal. Person-to-person payments threatened the banking establishment to such an extent that we were routinely told PayPal-like transactions were criminally illegal. A decade later, Wired Magazine placed PayPal as the cornerstone of the future of money.

[Innovation] made the establishment uncomfortable — they’d have stopped us at the gates had they been able too. Apple can, at their least bit of discomfort.

Its worth pointing out that DailyKos would not have been possible in an ask permission, closed environment. There would be no DailyKos without open systems. The internet is the ultimate open system. DailyKos is powered by Scoop, open source software. It runs off of servers running open source operating systems. If the internet was closed and controlled by one force, that force could have easily decided it wasn't interested in what Kos had to say or found what he said offensive and blocked its creation or shut it down at any time.

Kos himself has acknowledged how essential open systems, technologies, etc have been to the success of DailyKos. Its the traditional media's closed systems and walled gardens which have led to their demise. I'm confused as to why kos doesn't see the parallels and would be arguing for the closed systems.

How can you fight for Net Neutrality and at the same time endorse closed systems?

If the internet was closed, it would have never become the technology that permeates all aspects of our society today. It thrives off of universal access and a lack of censorship & control. It is that which drives and attacts the ingeniuety that has turned the internet into such a revolutionary force in our world.

***

Apple's Corporate Greed

The most offensive thing that Apple has done as a part of this whole debate was a recent change they made to the iPhone Developer's Agreement:

3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).

In non-tech speak, Apple has just indirectly fired employees of several companies who make their entire livelihood off of writing software that makes it easier for developers to create games and other applications for the iTouch platform.  I'd estimate that at minimum they've put 100 developers out of work.

Objective-C, C and C++ are programming languages with steep learning curves. Writing games in those programming languages can be especially challenging. So new companies saw a need and created software which made it easier for people who aren't experts in Obj-C, C or C++ to create games for the iTouch platform. This new clause in the iPhone Developer's Agreement essentially says that if you use their software to create your application, it will be automatically rejected by Apple.

The only reason that Steve Jobs put that clause in the Agreement is because of his ever-escalating fight with Adobe. He's trying to block them from creating a toolkit that allows Flash developers to convert their Flash applications into Objective-C code, thus enabling their applications to be accepted for sale in the App Store. Jobs cares so much about winning that fight, that he could care less if he puts hundreds of developers out of work in the process.

Its corporate greed and its evil.

***

Now I am a proud Apple fanboy. When Apple released OSX, I switched to Apple products and love just about everything about them. No tech company in the world understands technology, innovation, usability and marketing in the synergistic combination that Apple does. No others come even close. I absolutely love my Macbook Pro, which I work with for 12-16 hours every day, and I have never looked back ever since I switched.

I actually agree with the majority of Kos' post regarding the iPad. I do not own one, nor do I plan to in the near future. I am a "tech geek" and the iPad just isn't for me. I'm a developer and 100% of my job could not be done on the iPad. The fact that its of no use to me does not make it a bad device. I'm just not the audience it was designed for.

But Apple's actions are about more than just ensuring a great user experience. It's anti-competitive, anti-innovation, anti-worker, and greedy behavior. That shouldn't be something any of us support.

Originally posted to Marc in CA on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 04:29 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

    •  OS 9 unstable and buggy? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pat208, MKSinSA, Miggles

      It ran like a dream for me for EIGHT YEARS — way longer than I wanted to be on it, but that was because George Bush got re-elected. I upgraded on November 5, 2008. I'll concede that by the time I upgraded it was slow and wouldn't load a lot of websites, but I could see it getinng slowly obsolete and being able to do fewer and fewer things online.  Damn George Bush for not losnig in 2004.

      Stop Rob "The Job Outsourcer" Portman. Jennifer Brunner for Senate http://www.jenniferbrunner.com

      by anastasia p on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 04:49:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Was Bush your IT guy (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        koNko

        I just gotta know the connection between Bush's re-election and upgrading your OS...

        •  I made a vow on November 3, 2004 (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Devilstower, Snud

          that I would not spend a single inessential penny until Bush was out of the White House. And I pretty much kept it! No money on ANYTHING. I didn't plan it this way but I got my iMac with OS 9 in January of 2001, the same month he was inaugurated (ugh). I ditched it the week after the election, the same time I left dial-up behind for the same reason. But just minutes ago, I booted up my new MacBook and am on Snow Leopard for the first time! And Bush is still gone!

          Stop Rob "The Job Outsourcer" Portman. Jennifer Brunner for Senate http://www.jenniferbrunner.com

          by anastasia p on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:46:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  OS9 became unstable and buggy for the same reason (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sandino, Rei

        that Windows is unstable and buggy: this constant need to be completely backward compatible. It suffered from serious bloat.

        That's why OSX was so great because Apple finally decided to tell people they'd have to deal with a break in backwards-compatibility for the sake of clearing out bloat and creating a new highly-stable, highly-usable operating system.

      •  Used to crash on me all the time (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Rei

        every time I had to heavy duty work with excel it would crash. Perhaps an interaction with MS bloatware, but when I went to OS X, crashes gone like magic.

        Yes we did, yes we will. President Obama

        by marketgeek on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:08:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  What you said. (0+ / 0-)

      Absolutely correct, but ...

      :: When you speak to Apple fannaticks users you are speaking to religious extremists who would rather kill that entertain anything the contradicts the doctrine of their religion

      :: Kos doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground about technology and will never admit it. makebe he's on the take from Steve Jobs or is another of his unpaid disciples. who knows?

      A friend of mine in one of these robots. For years we have been arguing about Mac verses The Real World. When they were using the Motorola processor it was superior. When they switched to the Power PC it was an ïnsanly great idea". When they changed to Intel I noted "so you are finally catching up with the rest of the world, are you?" to which he replied "this is a brilliant idea, now Apple will kill Microsoft".

      Same story about the one button mouse. "that thing has no cahones" said I. "I can right click, scroll and jump while you are fumbling with control keys." Then the new mouse, another fucing story.

      And then the crap about HTML 5.

      And Kos spouting elitist bullshit about private clubs like the true Republican that he is.

      Funny, dat. I'm enjoying this.

      Wait until his battery goes dead. Not that we will hear about it, but it will happen and he will be pissed. I'm already smiling.

      Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

      by koNko on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 08:12:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Shessh..... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, Gary Norton

    Can't someone make an observation or have an opinion without being right or wrong?  Don't be so bi-polar.

    •  I'm not taking issue with his personal opinion (9+ / 0-)

      about the usefulness of the product. I'm taking issue with him endorsing closed systems over open systems.

      If you read the article, I think that would be pretty clear.

      •  Apple has always been a closed system (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gary Norton

        as far as I know. That's why the folks behind open source started the project, to have an alternative to mac and windows. I don't understand what's new here that folks are upset about.

        Yes we did, yes we will. President Obama

        by marketgeek on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:11:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well the operating system code itself (6+ / 0-)

          is not open source. That is correct. Although OSX is based off of an open source operating system.

          What's new here is that Apple is controlling who gets the right to sell what software on iTouch platforms. In other words, if I want to write and sell a program that runs on an Apple desktop/laptop, I don't have to have permission from Apple to do so. I can write it and sell it without any interference from them. But if I want to write and sell a program that runs on the iPhone/iTouch/iPad, I have to write the program, submit it to Apple for approval and hope that they approve it. Then it goes on sale in their store where they take a 30% cut of any of my sales.  There's no way for me to sell an iPhone program any other way. They control the marketplace exclusively.

          •  And... (4+ / 0-)

            If they decide that they don't like my application for any reason, such as:

            * It competes with an application they themselves are working on.

            * It competes or reduces the competitiveness of one of their other products.

            * It speaks negatively about Apple.

            * It has content that Apple finds offensive

            ...then they can reject it and I have no other means of distribution or sale of my product.

            •  You all seem to be forgetting one little thing... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Gary Norton, Sandino

              Apple created this market out of whole cloth.   Without them,  your opportunity would not exist.  Full stop.  You completely miss the utter ease and comfort they provide consumers in acquiring your application.  Which is a direct result of the closed environment.  You want to run your own payment processing system?  How many copies do you think you would sell if you were on your own?

              If you are afraid of operating in their environment go create apps for Google.

              •  That's exactly what many developers are (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AaronInSanDiego, Caelian

                doing or considering doing. I'm not disputing that there's market alternatives. But I think its important to speak out about the dangerous actions that Apple is taking so that the larger population is aware of just what Apple is doing.

                And I don't necessarily buy that just because a company creates a marketplace as a result of creating a new product, that they ergo should have exclusive control over that marketplace in a monopolistic manner.

                •  I agree, sort of (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sandino

                  Certainly Apple should publish the rules of the road and stick to them, and developers should engage with Apple with eyes open (mix metaphor alert).

                  However, I don't think any court in the land would claim that Apple has anything like a monopoly from an antitrust perspective, if that is your suggestion.

                  My main beef with this thread is that no one seems to acknowledge that their are  very, very real benefits to the consumer from this closed environment (one click purchase, some degree of good housekeeping seal, ease of access) that have certainly enabled the creation of a massive market.

                  •  Nothing that makes the iTouch platform (0+ / 0-)

                    accessible and easy-to-use by a broad market are a result of Apple's closed marketplace.

                    If quality control is something Apple is concerned about, then they could offer an optional "Apple approved" certification for applications they've reviewed for efficiency and quality control. But there is zero reason for them to maintain walled garden, except financial.

                    I'm not suggesting that an anti-trust action would be successful. There's nothing keeping anyone from going to another mobile platform. But they do maintain a monopoly on the iTouch application marketplace and its unhealthy for everyone involved in the end.

              •  Created what market? (0+ / 0-)
                E books? e- content? Hardly.

                In Asia the internet has been phone centric and multimeia oriented for nearly 10 years. Have you ever heard of i-Mode?

                Ditto for e-books. Years before Kindle hit the streets, Japanese, Koreans and Chinese were downloading e-boks on smart phone and readers.

                Ditto again tablet computers; more than 5 years ago Sony, Fujitsu and Sharp has tablet PCs in the market.

                Newton, you say? Re-branded Casio PDA.

                I don't see any market Apple has created except a market for the Apple brand.

                They make some very good products (I use a nano myself) but their innovativeness has been greatly exaggerated.

                Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

                by koNko on Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 06:21:49 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Ahah! Got it! (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Gary Norton, Sandino

            This could be problematic---but, just a thought, I have a friend who writes programs for the iPhone that net him a reasonable chunk of his annual income. Because of the format, as a guy sitting in his livingroom, he can sell on the app site and make money because his program has exposure to millions of people without his spending a dime on marketing or publicity. So it is closed, but it has also given him a way to publish and sell his programs that would not be there if he had to follow the old paradigm. That old paradigm includes massive advertising so people know you're there, support staff, bureaucracy to support support staff, etc. In other words a really big investment. Instead, he can have his app vetted and approved for no cost and then he gets to exploit the "long tail" and sell a niche product and make money.

            So what's better, to let Apple take the cut and face the traditional model or spend basically bupkes in the Apple model and make money as a small developer?

            I really have no answer to this, except to say that the Apple program has enabled a lot of small-time developers an avenue to income that would not otherwise be available.

            Yes we did, yes we will. President Obama

            by marketgeek on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:27:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Okay now imagine (9+ / 0-)

              that Apple decides one day that they want to sell their own app that competes directly with whatever application your friend created. They can and will immediately remove his application from the App Store and put him out of business. He's fucked and there's nothing he can do about it.

              That's what's wrong with a closed system.

              •  Yes and they have done this in the past (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                antirove, Rei

                they basically pirated Sherlock (if you remember that) from an app by a developer. I don't disagree that they should have better ethics, because they have been doing this for years, I'm just curious that folks have just awakened to it. Gobbling the small is a corporate pastime in America. The question for me is not open or closed, it's whether the entire system allows a cost of entry small enough for fostering innovation. Right now, outside of getting massive venture capital, the answer is no except for the iPhone platform. If the cost of entry demands massive budgets for marketing and staffing required only because of the necessity of gaining market share, then the Apple model is so far better for small developers. Even if at some time they get screwed. Because that happens anyway.

                Yes we did, yes we will. President Obama

                by marketgeek on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:39:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Oh sure but see (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Caelian, codairem, marketgeek, rlk

                  Its one thing when big corporate gobbles the small through competition in the open marketplace. Its offensive and drives small developers nuts, but that's part of competition and capitalism.

                  The difference here is that Apple has exclusive control over ALL sales. At least in the example you give, the developer has the option of still competing with the big, bad corporation by being nimble and constantly improving their product faster than the corporation can. Because they can still sell their product in their own store, on their own website, etc.

                  With the App Store, if Apple decides they don't want your competition anymore, they just flip the switch. They don't have to compete.

                  That's what's new. That's what's so offensive.

                  •  Ya got me--that is offensive! (0+ / 0-)

                    OK I finally get it. Thanks Marc

                    Yes we did, yes we will. President Obama

                    by marketgeek on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:55:08 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  The small developer's app can be better (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Marc in CA, Caelian

                    and Apple still decides to bump it off in favor of their own inferior product.  Microsoft showed how to do this with DoubleSpace...a software product that doubled the size of hard drives.  It took years of litigation for Microsoft to be penalized, and by then it was years past when the product and technology was relevant.  Consider IBM  label is something which means more to people than Hitachi or Fujitsu, even though the other corporations might have put out superior hardware and software.  Being the big 800lb guerilla makes it very easy for one to force out any aspiring smaller guerillas competing for space deemed desirable.  It takes years for a large corporation to be held accountable to the law, and upwards of millions in legal fees.  Even after an anti-trust conviction and a decade of court supervision, Microsoft is still has more than 96% of the PC market.

                    When life gives you wingnuts, make wingnut butter!

                    by antirove on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 06:08:55 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  I am not a geek but hasn't Apple made many , (0+ / 0-)

                    many millionaires by allowing them to directly market their products on it's platform.  It sounds like you want to kill the goose that has laid some very golden eggs for lots of small developers.

                    "When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

                    by lakehillsliberal on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 08:51:21 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Sure, but only with their permission (0+ / 0-)

                      Just because it works for some people doesn't mean = good. Its also destroyed the careers of many people. Case in point, the ~50 developers who work at Unity3D whose company was just put out of business by a change in Apple's iPhone Developer Agreement.

                      It's not commonplace that a hardware developer has full and complete control of the entire marketplace under which software for that hardware device can be sold & distributed. Nor should it be.

                      It wasn't good when Microsoft did it and its not good when Apple does it. And what Apple's doing is far more offensive.

                      If you read my whole discussion with marketgeek here in this thread, I explain why.

              •  BTW, great diary and discussion, thanks n/t (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Rei

                Yes we did, yes we will. President Obama

                by marketgeek on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:40:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  An 'open' system would be the same (0+ / 0-)

                or worse. If MS announces they are entering your niche, your product/company is doomed.

                •  Not really (0+ / 0-)

                  There's a lot of smaller companies that produce software that's directly competitive with Microsoft and other big software companies' products. They're successful because they make unbloated products that are easier and more efficient to use than the software produced by the larger companies.

                  You're only really doomed when the larger company uses anti-competitive behavior to force you out of the marketplace like Microsoft and Apple have been guilty of.

            •  The same can be said for Windows (0+ / 0-)
              Minus the corporate policing.

              Lots of Apple developers got burned in the past when Apple crashed the first time around and I think this is partially what bothers some of the present developers - trust issue.

              Apple also burned thier authorized "clone" hardware builders after they delivered hardware that out-performed Apple's own machines and Apple yanked the licenses. Not nice.

              So some of us wonder why so many people think Apple is this groovey "people's" company and Microsoft the devil

              I think they are both big corporations that do what they think is good for themselves, but Windows is a bit more open in terms of the business model, although they can be pretty unfriendly too when it comes to changing the code.

              The only company that really stuck to open systems was Sun, and we see where that got them.

              heh.

              Q: What is the difference between Larry Ellison and GOD?

              A: GOD doesn't think he's Larry.

              Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

              by koNko on Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 08:02:31 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Actually, no. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MKSinSA

      Observations of facts, and opinions, are either right or wrong.  

      •  Actually, no (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gary Norton

        Individual facts may be right or wrong. Opinions about how those facts line up, in balance, to support something as useful, worthwhile, beneficial (or not) are just opinions. An opinion is, by definition, subjective. Some may be more defensible than others, based on the facts available.

        Kos has one opinion. The diarist has another. Neither can be deemed "wrong".

        Legalism: strict conformity to the letter of the law rather than its spirit

        by Catte Nappe on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 04:59:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'm a Mac. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gary Norton, Albatross, MKSinSA, jsfox

    That's all I have to say.

    I'll go read Kos's article now... I hadn't seen it earlier today.

    BTW I have an iPhone but after being so broke that I had to cancel my AT&T contract (not earning enough at my job), I'm now using it with Skype and Google Voice and saving tons of $$.

    Both open systems and closed systems have good things about them.  

    But I'm definitely a Mac.

    Bartender, make mine a Markos Marxist Maoist Muslim Molato Moulitsas Mojito.

    by DontTaseMeBro on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 04:35:16 PM PDT

    •  And I'm not anti-Mac (5+ / 0-)

      I am an Apple fanboy. I'm anti- Apple's new policies which are attacking developers ability to make a living and I'm anti-anti-innovation.

      •  What you're describing (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MKSinSA

        sounds like a douche-y bureacracy.  I am not convinced that closed vs. open is the culprit.  Not saying you're wrong, just need to ponder this.

        Bartender, make mine a Markos Marxist Maoist Muslim Molato Moulitsas Mojito.

        by DontTaseMeBro on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 04:41:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Open systems are pretty efficient (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ssmt, LordMike, kyril, DontTaseMeBro, MKSinSA

          and eliminating bureaucracies because of competition. Closed systems are generally subject to the bureaucracies of the "owning" organization.

          •  I agree and understand. (0+ / 0-)

            But how do u square that with end-user experience?

            That's the conundrum.

            Bartender, make mine a Markos Marxist Maoist Muslim Molato Moulitsas Mojito.

            by DontTaseMeBro on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 04:58:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Engineers are poor designers (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bmcphail, DontTaseMeBro

              That tends to be the commercial downside to most open source projects in my experience.  Once somebody slaps a highly usable UI on top of a great open source library, it usually becomes very successful. Case in point: Mac OSX.

              •  Uh, yes and no. (0+ / 0-)

                Hardware engineers suck at UI design.  Correct.  Software engineers should not do so and be able to call themselves software engineers.  It is part of their job.

                I would aslo contend that the apple UI is not particularly great compared to some open source ones.  I haven't look at KDE in five years but five years ago it was still a better UI than OSX possesses (and I am an apple fanboi).

                I do have an iPhone but not until the 3GS came out.  It is still the bare minimum that is acceptable. I want it for a number of things including helping me manage my diabetes.

                If you want to put any software on your iPhone then register as a developer and register your iPhone as a development device, compile and run whatever you want.

                There are a number of technical reasons why the iPhone OS is as it is.  One has to be the lousy battery life.  There are trade offs.

                But I'm all for open source.  It could have been handle in a better manner.

                Best Wishes, Demena Left/Right: -8.38; Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

                by Demena on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 07:57:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I completely disagree (0+ / 0-)

                  There are fucking brilliant software engineers who can make software things do I can only dream of making software do, but ask them to put together a beautiful and usable UI, and they'd fall flat on their face.

                  Just because you understand code and can do brilliant things with it but can't design doesn't mean you don't deserve the title of software engineer. Programmers are great at programming, designers are great at designing, and the lucky ones are great at both.

                  •  'Tis your right to disagree. (0+ / 0-)

                    But that doesn't make either of us right or wrong.  It is my feeling that if you can't put together a decent UI , then you don't understand the problem.

                    Best Wishes, Demena Left/Right: -8.38; Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

                    by Demena on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 11:24:46 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  So a programmer (0+ / 0-)

                      who writes a brilliant machine learning system doesn't deserve the title of software developer because he couldn't put together a usable UI if his life depended on it?

                      •  I think you need to read what I said (0+ / 0-)

                        rather than paraphrase and put words in my mouth.

                        I said software engineer not software developer.  What I would call your friend is a talented programmer.  I would not consider him a software engineer.  FWIW I consider your friend probably to be superior in talent, a specialist.  A software engineer is usually a generalist, competent (or should be) in all areas but not necessarily talented.  Software engineering is a discipline.  Programming is an art.  And yes, he develops software, but those words don't mean much alone.  

                        I value the art more than the engineering.  If his work is as good as you say then he is an artist not an engineer.  A good painter is may not sculpt or sketch.  A landscape artist may not do portraits.

                        A good programmer has a gift and does not need much (if any) training.  A software engineer is trained, trained (if done properly) in all areas of software and should be competent in all areas to get certification.  If they are talented they may be more than competent but they don't have to be.   A UI needs to be written for the stupid.  That is more following a set of rules than the art of programming.  A programmer needs to understand the machine, a UI developer needs to understand people to be an artist at it.  Different talents although they are sometimes found in the same place.

                        That explain it?

                        Best Wishes, Demena Left/Right: -8.38; Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

                        by Demena on Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 02:22:53 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

    •  Not 'I use a Mac,' but 'I am a Mac.' (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Marc in CA

      I guess that advertising campaign and their entire marketing presence is truly brilliant.  

      I can't imagine anybody so self-identifying with a Ford vs a Chevy to the degree that they would call themselves one.

      I'm a progressive man, and I love progressive people - Tosh

      by VeganMilitia on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 06:36:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Here's my question to those who bought iPad (7+ / 0-)

    Why do I want to spend $700 for a device that is about the same size as a laptop, but does a lot less?

    Kos says 2 pounds vs. 6 pounds (more or less).  Is that really enough?

    I'm not slamming the product, I'm just trying to understand.

    "When the going gets tough, the tough get 'too big to fail'."

    by New Deal democrat on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 04:36:05 PM PDT

    •  But that's not the point (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ssmt, Sparhawk, Caelian, Albatross, Contra

      That's all a matter of audience. Some people use their computers primarily to consume. For those people, the iPad is great for their needs. Others need to use their computers more for creation, and so the iPad is too restrictive.

      One is not wrong and one is not right. Its just a matter of target audience.

      But again, that's not the point of my article.

      •  iPad = Couch Potato Nnetbook = Mountian Biker (0+ / 0-)

        Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha ...

        Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

        by koNko on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 08:26:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What's with the HR? (0+ / 0-)
        You HR my comment but tip this?

        Something wrong with your snark detector today?

        I happen to be a PC and UNIX user and don't fit either of those characterizations althouh I thought is was pretty funny.

        Besides, by comment is proably pretty accurate about the iPad audiance given the bulkyness and unwieldyness of the thing, and lack of PC functions.  My smatphone can do just about anything the iPad can and more, and my netbook is actually a much more useful tool at a lower price.

        Frankly, the iPasd is way over hyped and the attitude of Apple loyalists predicably snobbish and patrronizing, somethin I do find kind of offensive.

        Guess it's not my day on your thread, seems I'm the only person who got singled out for a slapdown.

        BYW, when you HR, you are supposed to stated why - check the FAQ.

        Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

        by koNko on Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 05:50:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I read somewhere (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Heiuan, New Deal democrat, MKSinSA

      ...and of course we're totally diverging from the open/closed discussion in the diary...that to get all the accessories and apps one might need to have a fully functional iPad with cool whistles and bells, you gotta spend upwards of $1100.

      Yikes.

      Score one for Apple...the iPad seems like a license to print money.  

    •  multitouch interface, and interaction (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pat208, Gary Norton

      Instead of working with a cursor, which acts upon a single point on the screen via a mouse, you're manipulating things with your hands.  It's a different way of interacting with a computer, and it'll allow different modes of usage, with different strengths and weaknesses.  For example, I find it incredibly difficult to draw freehand through a mouse, whereas it's easier using a finger directly upon the image (even easier with a touch-compatible stylus, but that's another story).

      Plus, it's really show something on it to another person — you just hand it over.  It's more straightforward than with a laptop.  I've already talked with a couple of people who plan on using it in business situations as a replacement for clipboard-type paper documents.

      Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

      by Simplify on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:20:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  multi touch (0+ / 0-)

        multi touch interface and screens have been around for a good while now. Apple didnt event anything new here.  They just hyped the shit out of existing tech.

        (regarding the bank mess) They want to cure the patient but not deal with the disease.

        by dark daze on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:24:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  tell that to their patent attorneys (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          pat208

          :)

        •  hype? (0+ / 0-)

          Or made the technology serve the user? If it's only hype why didn't any other iteration succeed? And why is the apple's multi touch still the standard, even after it's useable appearances in the new Android handsets?

          •  hype is code for... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Caelian, Heiuan, nickrud

            "I'm resentful of how good they are at marketing"

            As if marketing is a bad thing. Apple is better than all other tech companies at:

            * Making technology insanely usable * Effectively marketing that technology in a way that most consumers can understand

            ...and a lot of people resent Apple for that.  I say more power to them. I do resent though when they take other people's technology and try to patent the shit out of it as if they created it in the first place.

            •  Nope. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              dark daze
              Hype is Steve Jobs modus operendi, the inflated self-image of Apple loyalists and the arrogant way they treat fellow kossacks.

              Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

              by koNko on Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 05:56:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  resent apple (0+ / 0-)

              resent apple?  please we just see it for what it is,  5% of the market.  93% of the world runs windows systems.

              (regarding the bank mess) They want to cure the patient but not deal with the disease.

              by dark daze on Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 06:56:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  so why should you care? (0+ / 0-)

                its not very effective "hype" by your standards.

                •  dont really (0+ / 0-)

                  but IM in software and the tech industry and I hate when people say ignorant statements. I've worked with tablets for the last decade.  Try using a lenovo IBM thinkpad x200 multi touch multi view tablet, its a real machine, not a toy like the ipad.

                  (regarding the bank mess) They want to cure the patient but not deal with the disease.

                  by dark daze on Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 07:17:42 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well if its as great as you say it is (0+ / 0-)

                    Then Lenovo is a major fail at marketing, because 99.99% of Americans have never even heard of it.

                    •  pretty much sums up this country (0+ / 0-)

                      pretty much sums up this country, Americans dont know what they want UNTIL THE ARE TOLD BY CORPS what they want.

                      sheeple.

                      (regarding the bank mess) They want to cure the patient but not deal with the disease.

                      by dark daze on Tue Apr 13, 2010 at 07:33:34 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Pffft (0+ / 0-)

                        What a fucking ridiculous comment.

                        There is a purpose to marketing, you know. And it has nothing to do with "THE CORPS!!!" or "sheeple".

                        In a world that has hundreds of billions of products, people, including Americans, have to be aware of a product's existence before they're going to consider buying it. Not only do they have to be aware of its existence, but they have to have a reason why they might want to buy it. That takes marketing.

                        Lenovo is a major fail when it comes to consumer marketing. While many businesses are familiar with them, the majority of Americans have never heard of them. In addition, Lenovo products are ugly. And I'm sure you cringe at that statement, but whether you like it or not, consumers like products that are beautiful, and there's NOTHING inherently wrong with that.

          •  again (0+ / 0-)

            you have no clue as to what you are talking about. Tablet computing has been around , useful and used by many this whole last decade.  Hell Lenovo x200 multi touch multi view tablet pc makes the Ipad seen for what it is, a toy.

            (regarding the bank mess) They want to cure the patient but not deal with the disease.

            by dark daze on Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 06:58:59 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Something that Apple has patented up the yin-yang (0+ / 0-)

        So don't expect to see it on other brands' devices.

    •  The weight decrease alone may in fact be (0+ / 0-)

      enough for many prospective buyers.  Frequent flyers are constantly pursuing ways to reduce their carry on bulk and weight.  In fact, I just took a look at the flyertalk forums where I presume they are more agnostic on computer OS, and lo and behold there is a large, lively, and sane discussion of its pro's and con's, without any sidetracking over whose definition of open vs closed is correct.

      Having a policy does not mean receiving care. -- Tzimisce

      by Miggles on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:39:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Then a sub-notebook or net book is better (0+ / 0-)
        Because they deliver real notebook functionalith for about ther same weight and a smaller (foldable) size.

        What degree of functionality does a travelers get with a iPad? Not much.

        Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

        by koNko on Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 06:31:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Kos nailed it...travel. If you travel much, (0+ / 0-)

      having one less thing to pull out at security and having something that is lighter and takes up less room is a godsend.  Travel gets uglier and uglier every day.  Having an IPad or lightweight tablet would improve the process.

      "When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

      by lakehillsliberal on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 08:55:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What do you do for PC functionality? (0+ / 0-)
        I travel almost constantly and about the last thing I need is an oversized display without a keyboard and PC functionaliuty. If all you do when yu travel is read the newspaper then I guess the iPad might be attractive, but for people who have to work a notebook of netbook is a much better tool.

        I really don't see the nice for this being a mobile device; it is too big and too limied for that.  I thik this will maily appeal to home users and in some business applications like presentations and point of sale applications (eg, e catalogue, etc).

        I realize it has a soft keybord, but if you can get above 40wpm with that I'll be very surprised.

        And running what applications>

        Tablet computers have not been very popular beyond some of the applications I mentioned or as machines interfaces because as working tools, the ergomerics are actually very poor.

        Imagine you have to respond to a lot of email or write a proposal or mak a presentation. Are you going to use an iPad? unlikely.

        I think you will see a lot of people toting these around as status symbols until the novelty wears off and then they will be back to thier PCs and smart phones because they are practical tools.

        Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

        by koNko on Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 06:43:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  And Microsoft's not? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MKSinSA

    [Apple's] anti-competitive, anti-innovation, anti-worker, and greedy behavior.

    If you say so.

    This ain't no party. This ain't no disco. This ain't no foolin' around!

    by Snud on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 04:36:13 PM PDT

  •  read Kos' post (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike, kyril, Rei

    had about the same reaction.

    Though in fairness I have never been nor ever will be an Apple fan.

    Really you should touch on the whole e-reader 'agent' model it's just as bad in terms of killing competetion and innovation.

  •  Used PCs for years (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gary Norton, Snud, MKSinSA

    switched to mac 2 years ago.  Happy. Content. Peaceful.

    I am not a power user, and thus the simplicity of a mac makes me content.

    I can understand why power users need a PC.  I can understand why developers prefer PCs.  But you know what, I just don't care.  

    Is this wrong, maybe, but I really, really don't care.

    "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

    by Empty Vessel on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 04:38:47 PM PDT

    •  that's not what this is about (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      buddabelly, kyril

      there really is no such thing as a single computer for all.

      Each product (net books, laptops, pads, etc) have a certain target audience and they live or die on how well they cater to those audiences.

      That said it's immaterial to the points the diarist is making.

    •  Again...the diary has nothing to do with (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kyril, rlk

      Mac vs. PC or iPad vs. laptop.

      •  I know (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ssmt, Sparhawk

        but this is what you are up against.  

        1. Apples are more pleasant to run.
        1. Apples have less clutter and add-ons
        1. Apple seriously restricts and runs herd on developers.

        True or not, most of us users think those 3 elements go together.  That is, Apple only does open-source (HTML5) when it is genuinely better.  We trust Apple.

        All I know is this, half the time when I loaded 3rd party software onto a PC, it fucked things up.  When I load them on a Mac, they work.

        Given the experience I had in PC world, I really don't trust the developers.  They are more interested in their own programs running, even at the expense of others.  Back in my PC days I was constantly checking the system tray for bullshit that some developer thought I needed.  Not anymore.

        So, I will live with Job's fickle rules, capricious standards, and the rest.

        "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

        by Empty Vessel on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 04:49:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Its worth pointing out though (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          maxomai, Albatross

          that none of the Desktop apps for Apple's OSX ever go through any sort of Apple approval process. OSX is an open system.

          And thus the point of my diary. Whether a system is open (OSX) or closed (iTouch) does not dictate whether its efficient or usable. Kos was claiming that it did.

          •  Yeup (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            buddabelly

            Apple doesn't approve most the apps that I run on my Mac most of the time. These are: Firefox, NoScript, Adobe Acrobat, NetBeans, World of Warcraft, NeoOffice or Parallels, in descending order of frequency of use.

            The only Mac apps that I use all the time that comes directly from Apple are the BASH terminal and iTunes.

            Hence it is provably open.

            •  Imagine how less useful a Mac would be to you (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              antirove, codairem, rlk

              if Apple could shut off your access to those applications at their whim.

              Makes me wonder how amazing the iTouch devices would be if they had a completely open marketplace for their applications.

              •  And then Apple decides you must replace your (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Pris from LA

                'free' open source application with their proprietary application, for a fee, in order to 'interoperate' with their latest server technology.  That's the level of control Apple has over iPhone, iPad, etc.  You don't really own your hardware and software clear and free.  Apple determines what can run on it, and can determine what will be removed on the next sync operation.  Microsoft also has a fair degree of control over what is installed as elements of Windows Operating system, Internet Explorer, Office, etc.

                If you want open source free (legally) software, where you can truly own both your machine and control what is running on it, you'll need to look at Linux or BSD Unix or perhaps React OS.  With new machines, I'll back up Windows and then remove it, replacing with Linux.  That way there are no worries about whether anything I download is stolen or riddled with worms and viruses.  The software I use comes with source code, so if I happen to see problems, I, as a coder, can dig into it and figure out what's wrong, talk with developers directly and, if possible, fix it and submit the change or wait a few hours or days until the developer posts the patch.  Some of Internet Explorer's most serious weaknesses have got unfixed for several yars.  Serious weaknesses in Adobe's Flash and Reader software seem to keep showing up every few weeks or months.  Like Apple and Microsoft, Adobe's products with the biggest security problems are proprietary and allegedly tightly controlled.  But the corporations rely on independent contractors to deal with a lot of code issues.  They work 'to spec' and they won't redesign the broken architecture, just patch--create a workaround that hides the problem, until the next hacker finds the exploitable oint.

                When life gives you wingnuts, make wingnut butter!

                by antirove on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 06:23:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  huh? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          maxomai, Marc in CA

          Sorry but your post is very contradictory.

          Especially in how you frame things.

    •  Meh (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      El Zmuenga

      Speaking as some-times developer, I prefer Linux over Macs over Windows. The underlying hardware is not so important to me as long as the user interface lets me do my job.

      The operating system with the UI that gets in my the most is Windows.

  •  I guess I'm out of the loop. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PeterHug, unterhausen, Heiuan, JeffW

    I thought this was going to be about some kind of feminine hygiene product.

  •  What this all suggests to me (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MKSinSA

    Is that the open source movement has generally failed to tackle the real problem, which is the question of ownership.

    Whether a system is closed or open isn't really as important in the end as who owns the system.

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

    by eugene on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 04:42:10 PM PDT

    •  Who says the system should be owned? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ssmt, kyril, drache, rlk

      The internet is the ultimate open system. Do you think somebody or some organization should own it?

    •  The open-source movement's problem (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ssmt, antirove, drache

      relative to someone like Microsoft or Apple, is that they have a tiny fraction of the money and resources to throw at any given development project.

      The fact that nevertheless there exist open-source environments and applications that are as good as (and sometimes superior) to the for-profit products, is a testament to the efficiency of the open-source process.

      •  I'd argue they actually have more (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Caelian, PeterHug, antirove

        resources than Microsoft or Apple. The breadth of knowledge and time spread out over thousands of contributors is more than those major companies will ever have for one project.

        The issue is more about marketing and a system for profit.  Linux has never had the marketing resources or the ability to collect and redistribute its profits that Windows or OSX has had.

        •  I see your point - but nevertheless, (0+ / 0-)

          IMO the open-source projects tend not to move as quickly as the commercial ones do.  Perhaps part of the difference is a matter of focus?

          •  Commercial OS projects take a long time too (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PeterHug, antirove, drache

            You just aren't aware of how long they take usually because its happening outside of the public eye.

            Microsoft Vista took about a year and a half.

            •  Vista took more time to fix for Service Patch 1 (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Caelian

              and it still ended up unwanted by corporations who largely stayed with XP, waiting until '7' came out.  The problem is Windows OS is tightly wed to generations of hardware.  You end up having to replace your entire computer to buy your new Windows instead of upgrading some parts. This has happened every time, since Windows 3 owners tried to upgrade to Windows 95, and 95 to 98, 98 to 98 ME and 98 SE, and Windows NT, etc.

              Now if you buy a consumer end PC today, you are lucky if there are parts for it 18 months from now.  It will most certainly cost you more to update software than replace the hardware.  If you buy a 'business' grade PC, the manufactorer says they'll support it for 5 years but the replacement parts disappear after 3 years and you have to upgrade hardware and qualify it against your existing thousands of applications.  If you don't like this roller coaster, you look for the open source options. If your employees need office applications, email, and business software, it's likely already there for Linux, or a Windows version made to run under 'emulation' software.

              When life gives you wingnuts, make wingnut butter!

              by antirove on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 06:31:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Another point (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Caelian, PeterHug

            the overwhelming majority of open source projects are not consumer-focused desktop applications. 99.99% of open source programming results in libraries of code that programmers can use in a plethora of different projects. Since programmers are doing the open source programming, they scratch their own itch. There's usually no money to be made off of open source development, so there's little motivation to create a consumer application. Instead they write stuff to help make their jobs easier.

            Check out github.com. Its a social network for open source development. An incredible amount of stuff gets created there at blazing speeds. So much stuff is created and so quickly that its impossible for me to keep up. But most end-users will never see or be aware of that work, even though they use applications that take advantage of that open source code every single day.

      •  Which is a consequence of... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Marc in CA

        ...the issue of ownership. Corporations own the tech industry, so they can dominate it even against the values of the open source community.

        Lessig figured out the consequences of the problem and has made the right move, focusing on corruption in Congress. But not everyone else has followed suit.

        I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

        by eugene on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 06:33:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Sun Java, MySQL (0+ / 0-)
        Are a couple of examples of very sucessful open source systems/applications.

        So successful, in fact, that before Oracle could get approval to acquire sun they had to commit to keeping both open since there are so many users.

        Ditto, Linux. Granted few people use it for PC applications but it is universally used on netwrks and if it were not for Linux we probably wouldn't be having this discussion right here right now, since so may server applications run it.

        Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

        by koNko on Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 06:50:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Actually, FLOSS makes that quite clear. (7+ / 0-)

      The term "open source" can be abused, so I am specifically referring to Free (Libre) Open Source Software, where Free means "liberty".

      FLOSS software, like any other creative work, belongs to its creator and is protected by copyright.  The FLOSS creator gets to tell other people exactly what they can and cannot do with his or her creation.

      When you buy a computer, you own the hardware.  You can do anything you want with that hardware, i.e., put it in the garage, use it for a door-stop, or drop it off a cliff -- as long as you clean it up afterwards.

      However, you do not necessarily have the right to run any software on it you like.  That is up to the creator of the software.  For example, Apple only allows you to run Apple software on Apple hardware.  If you figure out out to run Apple software on non-Apple hardware, they can sue you for license infringement.

      When a FLOSS creator releases software under a true FLOSS license, such as the GNU General Public License, uses have the right to run that software on any computer they own.  Furthermore, they have the right to modify the software (since it is open source) and run that software on any machine they own.  They can also give copies away to friends and colleagues with no restrictions.

      However, if downstream uses redistribute modified software outside their circle of friends or a company, they must in turn grant exactly the same rights to everybody, and must distribute the modified source code so that downstream users can exercise those rights.  The modifications belong to whoever made those modifications.

      However, since the modifier grants everyone permission to use the modifications, the original creator can incorporate those modifications to improve the original software, and redistribute those changes freely.  The original creator still owns the original creation, but not those modifications made by others.

      This is why GNU/Linux is such high quality: all bug fixes and other good ideas can be incorporated back into the main distribution(s) so that overall quality keeps improving.  With Windows, only Microsoft can fix bugs since only Microsoft has access to the source code.

      Apple uses BSD Unix as its core.  BSD does not have a GPL-style license, so Apple does not have to distribute the changes they made to BSD and as such doesn't contribute back to a community that provided them with good software.

      Big Joe Helton: "I pay Plenty."
      Chico Marx: "Well, then we're Plenty Tough."

      by Caelian on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:14:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The OSS movement's problem (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      eugene, Drew J Jones, Pris from LA

      as I've outlined in various posts today, is that they haven't delivered products that can be sold to consumers.  Customized by deep-pocketed companies?  Yes.  Given away by consulting firms (IBM) looking for contracts fixing and configuring? Yes.  (In the early 2000's, Joel Sopolsky wrote an essay about commoditizing the complements to your products.  It's highly relevant to this discussion, especially since he points out that Sun had cooked itself, which was not at all clear at the time, yet true.)

      Successful consumer products?  Not really even close.  

      If you want to laugh a bit, have a look at the Unix Hater's Handbook.  It's ancient, and yet, somehow most of the critiques are still relevant.  (I say this as a person who uses Unix at work.)

      Apple went on an insane run in the past 10 years by delivering things that are pleasant to use.  Innovative developers flock to their platform because it's the one with the most opportunity to innovate, and the easiest mechanism to get paid for your IP, as opposed to your hours.

      Anyway, Markos is right about this iPad because it's compelling and has a lot of upside.  For users it is a plus that the platform won't be flooded with a bunch of substandard Flash-based programs; these just make it harder for people to sell high-quality apps.  (Adobe, of course, doesn't care about quality.  They sell Flash, and want to make it irrelevant whether you are using iPhone OS, Android, or Windows 7 Phone.)

      Personally, I think it's good that the big tech companies are actually fighting it out again, instead of keeping out of each other's spheres.  When I was actively involved in this stuff in the 90's, it was like that, and things were not so bad.

      If Healthcare Reform will be so unpopular, why is tangerine man so upset about it passing?

      by theran on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:30:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If the world depended on Apple (0+ / 0-)
        We would not be having this discussion.

        Apple make consumer products. Subtract the heavy iron and GNU/Linux, and all your internet server would be down and your screen blank.

        In my viewpoint, comparing Apple O/S and Linux is comparing, excuse the pun, Apples and Oranges and really pointless.

        I run both PC and Linux (the latter for scientific applications requiring huge, high speed computing power) and they are as different as night and day. I would not chose Linux for PC applications because it's underdeveloped for that. Likewise, niether PC or Apple O/S would be capable of, nor were designed to run the type of multi-threading systems used for many scientific, network or business applications. Neither was written with the scaleability and neither is sufficiently sysytem agnostic to handle the task.

        Let's let consumer applications be be what they are and let heavy iron do the heavy lifitng.

        Saying Apple O/S is equivelent to Linux is simply rediculous. they are quite different.

        Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

        by koNko on Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 07:09:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Only issue I have with this (5+ / 0-)

    is that when my college newspaper upgraded our systems to Mac OS10, we crashed EVERY GOD DAMNED DEADLINE WEEKEND.

    Seriously, fuck macs.

    But other than that, I agree with much of what you said as far as open v. closed.

    •  Well that was likely a hardware issue (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheBlaz

      The OSX machines didn't really have the hardware necessary to support OSX.  Hardly an Apple-unique issue.

    •  Mac OS X had teething problems... (0+ / 0-)

      ...until "Jagwire." Mac OS X 10.2 was the first truly usable version of the operating system. My first Mac OS X machine ran 10.3 "Panther."

      I'm still running Leopard (10.5) on this MacBook. Snow Leopard is beckoning to me but I think I'll move up this Summer. I need this machine running stable until the end of the semester.

      Oh, and by the way, nobody's talking about Linux here. Or one of the f/oss BSD variants. Mac OS X actually is descended from BSD, although it's not exactly Free in the Stallman sense now.

      The next OneCare Happy Hour will be April 30, 2010.
      "I like taxes. With them I buy civilization."-- O.W. Holmes

      by Pris from LA on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:06:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I just unplugged my DSL from OS 10.3 (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pris from LA

        on my desktop and plugged in my OS Snow Leopard running MacBook for the first time. I still hate the crampiness of laptops but it's pretty spiffy. (My earlier post was on OS 10.3)

        Stop Rob "The Job Outsourcer" Portman. Jennifer Brunner for Senate http://www.jenniferbrunner.com

        by anastasia p on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:44:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The iPad annoys this Mac user (7+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ssmt, Caelian, kyril, Rei, MKSinSA, sanglug, drache

    I don't hate it, but I'm not gonna buy one anytime soon. It's a product for consumers only, and as someone who produces, whose MacBook is a design/production studio, as well as a recording studio (and hell, video-maker if I wanted to be masochistic), the iPad is wholly inadequate for what I need my machine to be.

    That said, as a developer I hate Flash and love HTML5 and CSS3. So once a tablet-like device can support my print design work and can record my bands reasonably well, then maybe I'll jump on that bandwagon.

    Until then, I got shit to do.

  •  DailyKos is hosted on... (14+ / 0-)

    ...an open system called Scoop, running on an open system called Apache, storing all of its data (comments and posts) on an open system called MySQL, and very likely running on an open source operating system such as Linux or BSD.

    Just saying.

    •  Exactly (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      buddabelly, Rei

      What frustrates me is when people enjoy their Apple experience so much that they blindly endorse any decisions they make as a company.

      Sometimes I wonder if we discovered that all Apple products were assembled via child slave labor, if the resounding response from Apple fans would be:

      "But I love my Mac! It's so beautiful and usable!"

      •  Hey, if it wasn't for Apple (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Marc in CA, buddabelly

        those kids would be starving.

        /snark, for the impaired.

      •  Are you suggesting Apple products (0+ / 0-)
        Are made by slave labor?

        No, they are made by Chinese workers, same as many others PCs and consumer electronics.

        Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

        by koNko on Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 06:10:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

          •  Could be interpreted that way (0+ / 0-)

            So I phrased my comment as a question since I had reasonable doubt.

            Lots of people inluding lots of Kos members seem to equate Made in China with Slave Labor and it's common knowledge Apple products are made in China so there is room for that interpretation although I admit it take a leap to make the connection.

            Personally, as an Apple supplier, I'd like to think we are hard-working and that there is some dignity in that. (;^)

            cheers.

            Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

            by koNko on Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 08:44:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yea it was a pretty big jump (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              koNko

              I didn't even mention China. I just said "child slave labor" which many countries in the world have been guilty of allowing.

              •  Well, it happens in China too (0+ / 0-)

                It's certianly not the norm as in some other places, but in some very poor regions there have been cases found where children were working in indentured servitude in things like rural brick factories. It's illegal and not something that makes Chinese proud, but the kind of thing that extreme poverty someimes produces. As we say, "400 million to go"(400 million below the subsistance povery line).

                However, many people make the jump from that to belief or assertion that all Chinese workers are enslaved. That's rediculous. Certianly the workers who make iPods/whatever work hard and don't own SUV's, but they do so out of choice and because it gives them a future. It's the opportunity they have, and it's usually much more freedom and better prospects then living in rural poverty.

                The same could be said for many Americans 100 years ago.

                As Mao said "When you enjoy a drink of water, don't forget who dug the well".  But that's not to suggest well diggers have no dignity; quite the opposite.

                Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

                by koNko on Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 09:32:16 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Apple rejects Pulitzer winner (0+ / 0-)

                Apple bans http://www.markfiore.com/ from the app store !

                Another victory to freedom and creativity !

                Did u write a diary on ACTA ?

                "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore." --Emma Lazarus, 1883

                by arnott on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 12:03:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  MySQL (0+ / 0-)

      I love this quote:

      'MySQL is an open product, PostgreSQL is an open project.'

      I'm a progressive man, and I love progressive people - Tosh

      by VeganMilitia on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 06:49:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for your perspective. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ssmt, MKSinSA

    I love the design of Mac products, but everyone I respect extols the virtues of open systems.  I never understood why Microsoft was seen as having evil anti-trust policies when Apple's MS was always to link its operating system with its hardware.

    Just a little note: a steep learning curve means that progress is made quickly.  It's often misused to mean that progress is difficult.  Imagine a graph in which time is the x-axis and amount of learning is the y-axis...

    •  I program in C++ (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Marc in CA, think blue

      and I do so at the object oriented level.

      I can tell you first hand that for anything more complicated then a few thousand lines it's very very hard. Not only to learn but to use. My professor while doing my undergrad degree repeatedly encouraged me to move to Java or Fortran, sometimes I wish I had. About the only good part of learning C++ is if you can learn it then you can learn just about anything else.

      •  I don't know... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theran, think blue, drache

        I've been coding OO for over two decades, starting in Object Pascal. The real advantages of OO don't even show up until you're faced with a massive project.  Having finished off being lead developer on a $50m project last year, and having another $15m project to complete this year, I don't want to even think about how I would manage it in structured code.  God help anyone trying to write anything this large in Fortran! We've mixed C++ with C# and Java over the years. I'll take any of them -- so long as strong typing is being enforced. Letting C play its traditional slippery game with types on a large project is an invitation to madness.  

        Apple's take on C is no harder than any of the others (and a good deal simpler than generic C++), but you will need time to learn the syntax. And the tools are quite nice. Heads up, Microsoft's tools are nicer if you want to dash off a quick desktop app for a few users, Apple's are better for enforcing rules and holding a project together.

        The price on Apple's tools can't be beat.

        •  well to be fair (0+ / 0-)

          I am first and foremost a scientist, I do not simply code on the scale that you or my computer science major friends do. I if anything regard coding as just another tool in pursuit of science not really any different then math. So the structural challenges are not as great and if anything for certain tasks like matrix work Fortran excels over C++ or C#.

          Not to mention academia is very conservative and Frontran is still the more widely used coding scheme.

          I guess to draw a metaphor, you are the professional and I am more like the weekend warrior just dangerous enough to understand a little.

          Though I agree with you on types about the only thing that bothers me more is memory leak from nodes, linked nodes and dynamic lists.

    •  Steep learning curves (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      think blue

      Actually, "steep learning curve" can mean both.  I generally use "steep learning curve" to mean having to learn a great deal to do useful work.  If that needs to be done in a short amount of time then it does indeed mean the learning is done quickly, hence a steep slope.  The phrase "drinking from a fire-hose" comes to mind as well.

      From Wikipedia:

      Early uses of the metaphor focused on the pattern's positive aspect, namely the potential for quick progress in learning (as measured by, e.g., memory accuracy or the number of trials required to obtain a desired result) at the introductory or elementary stage.  Over time, however, the metaphor has become more commonly used to focus on the pattern's negative aspect, namely the difficulty of learning once one gets beyond the basics of a subject.

      ...

      This difference in emphasis has led to confusion and disagreements even among learned people.

      Big Joe Helton: "I pay Plenty."
      Chico Marx: "Well, then we're Plenty Tough."

      by Caelian on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:29:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Without disputing that the phrase has acquired (0+ / 0-)

        a more common usage, from the point of view of learning as a discipline, the more common usage is incorrect.  

        It's not a matter of focussing on the more "positive" or "negative" aspects of the pattern. The slope or steepness of the curve is a function of progress over time.  There's no negative aspect to that - it's not like walking up a hill.  Difficulty of learning once one gets beyond the basics of a subject would be represented by a steep curve that levels off ... and loses its steepness.

        I wouldn't be such a stickler, but this was taught to me by one of the most highly regarded learning psychologists and much more importantly, a teacher whom I'm very personally fond of.

  •  Good info. It sounds like you think that (0+ / 0-)

    if Apple keeps instituting policies like these, that it'll hurt their company. Is that the case?

    I used to be in the pro-Obama wing of the Democratic Party. Now I'm in the I-fucking-love-this-guy wing of the Democratic Party!

    by doc2 on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 04:53:25 PM PDT

    •  Apple will survive (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LordMike

      but it is stifling what it could become. And it is antagonizing the very people that it depends on to make software for their products.

      Its just bad news all around. It hurts Apple. It hurts developers. It hurts innovation.

      •  So wrong (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theran, Gary Norton

        Apple is focused on providing a great end user experience.   By having a store where a consumer can buy an app with one click, that they know is not full of bugs and will crash their system, is worth pissing of a few developers.   And it is the right business decision.

        As a modestly technical user I find this conversation amusing.  No where have any of you commented about making a product that is oriented around the consumer experience, one that is easy to sell and pleasant to use.  

        •  That's great for them... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Marc in CA

          ...but who will provide the software for that "great user experience"?  Apple nearly went under in the 90's 'cos there were no "apps" worthy of spending the extra money for a Mac.

          Apple's arrogance may yet bite them in the ass. The primary reason why the iPhone is so popular is that it is heavily subsidized.  That subsidy will soon go the way of the dodo, and if app developers go with it, there won't be much left for the "consumer experience".

          Microsoft maintained their monopoly with the motto of "developers, developers, developers"  The red carpet was rolled out for those who made Windows work.  Apple is slapping them in the face.

          Well, Apple better watch their back... Apple still owns a minority share of the smartphone market.  There are tree times more blackberries than iPhones, and Android will achieve parity within two years, and outside of the U.S. Symbian owns a 90% share.  They aren't the only game in town.

          I checked with some developer boards, BTW... there's practically an outright mutiny.  More than that, many if not most of the current iPhone games violate the new developers agreement.  I suppose they will be purged as well along with all the other apps that have been purged recently.

          There goes your consumer experience when you have nothing left to experience...

          DARTH SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
          LANDO REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!

          by LordMike on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 09:21:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Look, if that was the ONLY reason that Apple (0+ / 0-)

          reviewed the apps and rejected apps, that would be one thing. But it clearly is not! Apple rejects applications all the time for all sorts of reasons.

          Case in point...

          A 22-year-old iPhone application developer by the name of Red Daly is claiming that Apple rejected his new application from inclusion in the iTunes App Store due to its political nature. His app, iSinglePayer, was designed to educate its users on the benefits of a single-payer health care system. ... According to Daly, an Apple representative spoke to him by phone to inform him that the rejection of the app was due to its "politically charged" nature. Well that, and the fact that Apple doesn't allow political apps from single developers.

          Apple's engaging in censorship of anything they don't want their brand to be connected with.

          Just do a Google search of "Apple rejected apps", there's endless examples of Apple rejecting applications for reasons having nothing to do with ensuring a great user experience.

          And I simply reject this assertion that the app store marketplace/system has to be 100% controlled and regulated by Apple in order to provide a "great end user experience".  Apple desktop/laptops provide a "great end user experience", yet Apple in no way controls the marketplace and installation process of Mac OSX desktop applications.

          Imagine if tomorrow Apple announced that they were locking down the ability to install desktop applications on all Macs. All applications must now be sold through the iTunes App Store, Apple was taking a 30% cut, and any applications that compete with Apple-created software would be rejected. Bye bye Firefox, Chrome, Microsoft Office, etc. There would be an outright REVOLT from Mac owners and developers. Everyone would be screaming bloody murder! Why is it any different just because its a mobile operating system vs. a desktop operating system?

          Apple would never do what I described because they couldn't get away with it. Apple was only able to get away with it on the mobile platform because mobile phones were such a wasteland pre-iPhone. And now, via effective marketing, they've managed to convince people like yourself that not only do they have the right to do it, but that its GOOD for you!

          I gotta give it to them, they're marketing is brilliant, but its getting a little disturbing how willingly consumers are buying it hook, line and sinker.

          •  If Apple did that... (0+ / 0-)

            ...I'd never buy another Mac OS X app again. I'd probably keep a partition for Final Cut Express and Logic Audio Express and Photoshop CS4 but I'd dual boot with Debian Linux with XFCE and do most of my work on that. And the Mac OS X side would never be allowed to access the Internet again. So long Steve, it's been good to know you...

            The next OneCare Happy Hour will be April 30, 2010.
            "I like taxes. With them I buy civilization."-- O.W. Holmes

            by Pris from LA on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 11:46:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Potentially that could be the case.... (0+ / 0-)

      Eliminating the possibility of using cross-platform development tools could prevent a significant number of games and other apps ported to the iPhone platform.  This opens up the possibilities for Google and Microsoft.

      One company announced the other day, a tool that would allow folks to port xBox games to the iPhone.  I guess that company just got shot down... however, that same tool will be able to port xBox games to Android and Windows Mobile (and possibly blackberry).

      Regardless, Apple is making life harder for developers and limiting their choices even more.  At some point, developers will revolt and leave the platform.  As closed as microsoft generally is, they've always been about making life easier for developers.  Apple is slapping developers in the face.  

      DARTH SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
      LANDO REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!

      by LordMike on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 06:13:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Unless you were a developer of... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Caelian, LordMike

        As closed as microsoft generally is, they've always been about making life easier for developers.

        Unless you were a developer of desktop operating systems, productivity software, multimedia software or browser software. :)

        •  Shorter Steve Ballmer: (0+ / 0-)

          "Developers, developers, developers"

          Now, that applied to application developers, but Microsoft developed tools like Visual Basic and C# as well as hundreds of libraries to make development easier.

          And here's Apple, who is doing everything in their power to remove tools from developers.

          Eventually, their arrogant monopolistic ways will bite them in the ass.  I look forward to that day.

          DARTH SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
          LANDO REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!

          by LordMike on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 07:07:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  On many counts, I think you're right. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Marc in CA, Sparhawk

    But the iPad is simply one computing device in a sea of computers, and as such will have to live and die inside that competitive climate.

    If it does well, then it means it's filling a niche, if it doesn't it'll tank. Perhaps what we're missing in this debate is that there are many consumers who only want to consume....and a closed system doesn't affect their computing habits at all.

    That said - I'd rather see a Apple trend toward open systems than away from them.

    To believe without knowing is weakness; to believe because one knows, is power. Éliphas Lévi

    by Jahiz on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:05:54 PM PDT

  •  Nobody's talking about Linux here... (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    antirove, Dr Colossus, CJnyc, JeffW, rlk

    ...which is a damned shame. Linux has been a going concern since 1991, and just about every server on the Internet runs either it or one of the Free/Open Source variants of BSD now.

    Linux on the desktop is not as popular as it should be. It's been usable for years. It has actually made more inroads in phones (Android) and embedded systems (TiVo and a host of entertainment systems) than on the computer desktop. I defy someone to sit down in front of a Linux desktop running Ubuntu, the most popular and most desktop-oriented Linux distro, and not feel at home in a few minutes.

    Linux was an ideal operating system to run on netbooks. I think that it's more laziness on the part of netbook manufacturers who are more Windows oriented (I'm looking at you, Dell, ASUS and HP!) than Linux oriented. Android, which has a Linux kernel and a Google-customized userspace, might yet make inroads as netbooks converge with phones.

    Linux has some of the same advantages as Mac OS X. It's stable, it is built from the ground-up to be more secure than the bolt-on "security" you see in Windows. It doesn't have drive-by installing viruses and worms, although there are "trojans" that affect desktop Linux and Mac OS X. Those require clicking on a mail attachment or installing a "codec pack" that is represented as being needed to view videos. It bears repeating that you should not open unsolicited attachments, and take particular care when on naughty websites.

    Chances are you use Linux and you don't even know you do. As I mentioned earlier, it's in lots and lots of use in entertainment systems like TiVo and even in a fair amount of modern LCD TV sets. And Linux is a great system to use on those PCs that are not spiffy enough to run Windows 7. There are lightweight distros like Xubuntu and Puppy that are specifically designed for older machines.

    The next OneCare Happy Hour will be April 30, 2010.
    "I like taxes. With them I buy civilization."-- O.W. Holmes

    by Pris from LA on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:30:21 PM PDT

    •  My favorite router & router firmware are thanks (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      VeganMilitia, Pris from LA

      to Linux. I had endless problems with routers until I heard about DD-WRT, went out and bought a compatible router and installed it. Haven't had a single problem since.

    •  I used Linux exclusively (0+ / 0-)

      for personal use from 2000 until last fall, and for business until a couple years ago when I took a job that was focused around Office. I also spent an ungodly number of hours, by one count more than any other operator providing assistance to users on #ubuntu. Yet I switched to Apple last fall. Why? Because while there is a plethora of software available for linux, nearly every user oriented program - with a few glaring exceptions - is several cuts below the average apple quality. Polish, fit, and usability in open source desktop software just isn't there for the most part. When the technical thrill of running a machine I had control of right down to the bare metal stopped being satisfying, yet still wanted more than email, browsing and music Ubuntu just didn't cut it.

      Open source in system software - apache, mysql, vertical integration a la ibm - is strong and cutting edge because there are well paid teams in the various companies cooperating on the code. But for the user stuff that model isn't working.

    •  Linux still has a ways to go in usability (0+ / 0-)

      It's only been in the last few years that open source programmers have realized that they need UI designers to be on the project, not just programmers.  Also I odn't thikn it can really take off until gallium3d is stable and widely available.

    •  Microsoft is trying to help Linux using Windows 7 (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Marc in CA, Pris from LA

      I'm still content using Windows 2000, but I adamantly refuse to go with Vista or Windows 7, and I'm leery about XP.  So my next machine will probably be a Linux machine.  I'm sure there are dozens of people who feel the same way.

      There are a number of interesting theories out there about why Linux is not available on netbooks.  The first netbooks mostly ran GNU/Linux because Microsoft was ending support for Windows XP and there was no way a cheap little netbook could run Vista or Windows 7.  So Microsoft un-ended support for Windows XP on netbooks, and now has a special limited version of Windows 7 for netbooks.  Other theories are best left for other sites.

      The good news is that a number of ARM-based netbooks are coming out this year from large manufacturers like Dell and Lenovo.  Desktop Windows doesn't run on any of these, and Windows CE competes poorly with GNU/Linux.  ARM-based netbooks generally have twice the battery life of an x86-based equivalent.  That's why ARM is in every cell phone, and also in the iPad.

      The even better news is that a whole slew of ARM-based netbooks and tablets are coming out from all sorts of manufacturers this year.  The small company Always Innovating has been providing a $300 open-source equivalent to the iPad called the Touch Book for nearly a year now.  I think we're finally seeing the turning point.

      Big Joe Helton: "I pay Plenty."
      Chico Marx: "Well, then we're Plenty Tough."

      by Caelian on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 06:17:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I loves me some Android. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pris from LA

      Has anyone else here used a Motorola Droid?  I just got mine and the thing is a beauty.  A couple of things could use a little more polish (file management, email folders, etc), but overall it's a wonderful, incredibly capable product.  And I love how open it is by comparison (although it could still use some improvement itself -- I'm going to need to root it if I want to turn it into a wifi hotspot, and I'm a little apprehensive about the process)

  •  I think you are taking kos too much to task (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    marvyt

    over distinctions in the usage of jargon, and then you're getting lost in the weeds.  From an OOA/OOD perspective the definition of closed/open depends on what interface or system level at which you are examining the system.  For instance I can call you out just as loudly that OS 9 was in fact open.  For instance OS 9 allowed me to write and publish software without approval from Apple.  In addition, Apple published software interfaces to OS 9 such that foreign applications could interact with the system.  Therefore at that level OS 9 was most certainly open.  Open/Closed is really in the eye of the beholder.

    Having a policy does not mean receiving care. -- Tzimisce

    by Miggles on Sun Apr 11, 2010 at 05:32:36 PM PDT

    •  I'll give you that (0+ / 0-)

      There is certainly some cross-over in my post between open source and open systems. However, open source programming, development and innovation requires open systems: an open development platform, open sharing of code, open licensing, etc.

      kos was implying in his original post that, by definition, closed systems were more efficient and less buggy because they had total control over the environment and that's just not true.

      Maybe I diluted my point by addressing both, both I think both issues are important to cover in the discussion.

  •  How closed is it? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theran

    If you want to develop for the iPad, you can buy everything you need for less than it would have cost for a spare floppy drive in Apple ][ days.  Apple gives away the dev tools (and theyre nice tools) along with tons of examples and documentation. If you're programming for yourself or your company, you can use any tools you choose. It's only if you offer commercial applications through iTunes that you have to meet Apple's QA standards.

    That doesn't strike me as the kind of odious threat to freedom some seem to be proposing.

    •  Actually no (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rei

      If you want to develop for the iPad, you can buy everything you need for less than it would have cost for a spare floppy drive in Apple ][ days.

      In order to develop for the iTouch platform, you have to create your application using Xcode, which only works on an Apple machine. Minimum $599 if you don't own an Apple.

      You also have to be an official Apple Developer in order to download the SDK, which costs $99/year.

      If you're programming for yourself or your company, you can use any tools you choose. It's only if you offer commercial applications through iTunes that you have to meet Apple's QA standards.

      If you want to offer any program that works on the iTouch platform, free or for sale, you have to distribute it for iTunes. There is no other means of distribution available. All iTouch applications are required to meet Apple's QA standards; standards which Apple refuses to publish -- so you only discover you've violated them when they reject your application and even then they don't tell you HOW you violated those QA standards.

      In addition, if they decide to develop an application that competes with your application, they can shut off your access to the market at their whim.

      See above convo with marketgeek.

  •  I have been working on an iPhone app (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pris from LA

    for a number of months and I am nearly finished. I am little freaked out by what I hear from developers regarding the approval procedure.

    I programmed for a number of years in Visual Basic, so that means I am not a hard core geek. I have been hoping to get back into the swing of things by writing this app (with more on the way).

    I think the xcode IDE is pretty good, but I do find Apple really annoying at times. What bothers me is that I don't think they are any different from Microsoft, yet they have created this silly aura for themselves that they are somehow a counter cultural enterprise. Nothing could be further from the truth. The epitome of the Apple arrogance (since loosened up) was when developers were reticent to talk about the iPhone SDK in forums due to a non-disclosure agreement. This was just nuts.

    Once I finish my apps, I hope to port everything to Android. I think in the long run Apple will have a hard time expanding market share against an more open standard such as Android (though Google apparently has some proprietary claims there as well).

    •  Assuming its approved, the worst part is the wait (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pris from LA

      I had to wait almost 2 months for approval of my application. It took me 3 months to code it. They almost doubled my time to market because of their wacky approval system.

      Then you get the "approval of your application has been delayed" email, which gives no explanation as to why. You just want to scream, or strangle an Apple employee.

      Apple's so concerned about the end user experience. They should be a little more concerned about the developer's experience because without developers there are no users.

      •  What is funny to me is what they consider (0+ / 0-)

        important in the user experience. I down load podcasts from their site frequently and the way they structure their tableviews, you can't tell what the title is if it is more than a couple short words (everything else becomes an ellipsis). Rather than meaning they are much more concerned with "feel".

        Thanks for the heartbreaking update, I have been running on fumes trying to get this done, and had assumed approval would take a week.

  •  Yawn (0+ / 0-)

    Again, Adobe brought this on itself.  They developed shittier software for Macs while they were off concentrating on Windows.  Flash runs terribly on Macs, and Adobe didn't bother to produce a mobile version in either a timely or competent manner.

    Now Adobe's shrieking like a toddler about how Apple is a big meanie for blocking explicitly what Apple has said for quite some time now it does not want.

    If the devs had followed Apple's instructions all along, it wouldn't be an issue.  Didn't follow them?  Tough shit.

    As for your point about consumers not buying games that run like shit on the Xbox in an open-source scenario -- that's stupid.  Microsoft would pay a price for consumers suffering shitty gaming experiences.  They rightly avoid that.  Consumers also shouldn't have to deal with those shitty experiences.

    In the end, there's a very simple solution here: If you don't like it, don't buy it.

    It amazes me how pissy people have gotten over a little goddamned computer.

    Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

    by Drew J Jones on Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 07:05:40 AM PDT

    •  Yea why should we developers (0+ / 0-)

      care about things that dictate our livelihood? Silly people.

      •  You shouldn't have to care. (0+ / 0-)

        If you'd followed their guidelines from the beginning, it wouldn't be an issue.  Sorry, I can't sympathize with the Adobe leg-humping.

        Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

        by Drew J Jones on Mon Apr 12, 2010 at 07:34:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There were never any rules or recommendations (0+ / 0-)

          against cross-compilers. And Adobe is not the only producer of cross-compilers. I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about here. Apple is changing the rules in major ways mid-stream and seriously fucking over a lot of developers.

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