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Almost everyone in America today remembers exactly where they were at the moment when they first heard about 9-11. I was at the dentist. And almost everyone from the baby-boomer generation also remembers exactly where they were at the moment when they first heard that President Kennedy was shot. For the baby-boomer generation, Kennedy's assassination was like what 9-11 is to Americans today -- in the sense that things have never been the same since either event.

In 1963 I was a junior in college, sitting in the front row of Professor James Pratt's political science class and listening to his lecture on Eisenhower's warning about the military-industrial complex. And who would have guessed back then that 47 years later I would finally actually get a chance to actually go visit Dallas, to actually go inside the Texas Book Depository and to actually stand right there on the Grassy Knoll, looking down on the exact spot where Kennedy was shot. Not me!

Here's how it happened: I was down in Belize City and about to catch a plane home after having visited almost every Mayan ruin in a four-country radius (see http://jpstillwater.blogspot.com/... for details), when it was announced over the loudspeaker that my flight was delayed. Rats. "Now I'll never make my connection at DFW!"

"Not to worry," said the gate person. "We'll put you up at a hotel in Dallas and you can fly out to SFO the next day." And American Airlines did just that, bless its heart. And that is how I actually got to spend a whole day in Dallas.

And what does one do when one goes to Dallas? Go to a Cowboys game? No! One visits the Grassy Knoll!

And gets to be amazed.

First I was amazed that, 47 years after Kennedy's tragic death, the place where he was brutally assassinated was still a major tourist attraction. There were still tourists coming to that spot. And the sixth floor room where Oswald allegedly shot Kennedy is now a museum.

The second thing that amazed me was that I actually got to stand on the exact spot where Kennedy received his tragically-fatal shot to the head.

But the thing that amazed me most was that, after all this huge hype that's been shoved down our throats for the past 47 years that Oswald, acting alone, killed Kennedy by firing just three shots, is really actually sort of hard to believe when you are actually there at the actual spot. Even the greenest kindergartner, standing where I stood 47 long years after the fatal event, could immediately see that, despite all the hype and the commission reports to the contrary, that it would have taken a miracle of marksmanship and accuracy for Oswald to have made those three direct hits. A freaking miracle!

Was Oswald that good of a marksman? Hardly. But if he was, then he must have been intensively well-trained by the best.

If, however, someone had made the shot that killed Kennedy from the Grassy Knoll, where eye-witnesses originally said that the shots came from, it would have been a relatively easy shot.

"But, Jane," you might say, "if the shots had been fired from the Grassy Knoll, wouldn't they have entered Kennedy's body from a different angle and even injured Jackie as well?" Hmmm...

So I did some research. And according to autopsy photos at http://www.celebritymorgue.com/... we can clearly see that one bullet entered Kennedy's head from the right -- and one entered at the middle of his back. And a third one entered his neck from the FRONT. What's with that? Oswald really did fire a miracle shot! Or else Kennedy was shot as he approached the Grassy Knoll, passed in front of it and was driven away from the shooter(s)?

I haven't read all the voluminous literature regarding JFK and Oswald, but it seems to me from the perspective of a naive tourist just visiting the Grassy Knoll for a few minutes that If Oswald actually was the sole shooter, then he would have had to have started shooting Kennedy at least a half-football-field sooner than he did -- if he was going to get in both his front and side shot.

And where was the Secret Service after the first shot was fired? Aren't they spozed to throw themselves in front of the President at the first sign of trouble and protect him with their lives? Which brings up that old question of why weren't Secret Service agents riding on the Cadillac's rear bumper? Which they clearly were not. No wonder poor sweet Jackie got blood all over her pink suit and Caroline and John-John had to go fatherless!

"But, Jane," you might remind me rather forcibly at this point, "all these are just conspiracy theories." Yeah, well, tell that to the kindergartners -- and us tourists at the Grassy Knoll.

Here's a video I made of the scene of the crime: http://www.youtube.com/...

PS: It also seems to me that lurking behind the scenes during every major war and disaster in America since 1930 (or even actually on the scene), there has always been a member of the Bush family -- with the possible exception of Korea. Prescott Bush was there egging on Hitler. George H.W. Bush was a high-ranking CIA official when Kennedy was murdered, thus paving the way for Vietnam. Then there was the Gulf War, invented almost singlehandedly by George Senior. And 9-11? According to George W. Bush's terrorism adviser, Richard Clarke, GWB was warned about the possibility of that tragic attack at least a month before it happened -- and yet Bush did nothing.

And how about Iraq and Afghanistan? Was a Bush behind those wars too? Yep.

And just think for a moment about how all these past 80 years of American "wars" have been very, very good for the Bush family -- causing their stock in the weapons trade to zoom up. Which leaves me wondering which Bush will get us into America's next war -- in order to give the next generation of young Bushes a leg up in the family business?

Professor Pratt and President Eisenhower were right back in the day. "Beware of the military-industrial complex." And nothing's changed since -- except for the worse. And while misguided Teabaggers are currently fretting their little hearts out over our government's relatively minor healthcare expenditures, munitions manufacturers like the Bush family are still happily hijacking what is left of our treasury -- and our souls.

PPS: Oh crap. I'm so tired of hearing about how Teabaggers, the NRA and "Christian" militias are out buying deadly weapons, arming themselves and then complaining that they need even MORE assess to weapons. If those people all want unlimited access to guns and warfare so badly, then they need to move to the Democratic Republic of Congo ASAP. They'd be much, much happier in the DRC. There's no gun control there. You can shoot at people indiscriminately and nobody can stop you. Teabaggers could even own their own tanks!

PPPS: The bastards who killed Kennedy may still be feeling all smug with themselves that they got clean away with it and that they will never be caught. But all too many Americans know what really happened back then. You think not? Just go to YouTube, enter a search for "Kennedy Assassination" and watch how many VIDEOS come up. 7,880 videos come up. That's videos, not hits (one video alone had 3,157,243 hits). Type in "Kennedy assassination conspiracy" and over TEN THOUSAND more videos will pop up.

Now take a few hours and watch some of those videos yourself. "You can fool some of the people all of the time...." Despite the fact that the perps outwardly seem to be getting away with their cover-up, they are not. Not really. Even 47 years after this tragic event, people are still not letting this issue fade.

Perhaps there is hope for America yet.

****

Here's a home video taken in 2009, showing how tourists are still swarming the Grassy Knoll even now. According to this video, there was also a tree in the way of Oswald's shot back in 1963. http://www.youtube.com/...

****

More than three bullets were shot? This video says yes: http://www.youtube.com/...

****

Here's a video of an eye-witness who heard many shots. "The shots came from the [Grassy Knoll] and I saw a man running." http://www.youtube.com/...

****

Here's the famous video of the Secret Service stand-down in Dallas: http://www.youtube.com/...

****

And here's a photo of George H.W. Bush at the Texas Book Depository after the shooting: http://www.freedomfightersforamerica...

Originally posted to Jane Stillwater on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 10:23 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

    •  You say: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kalmoth

      "In 1963 I was a junior in college, sitting in the front row of Professor James Pratt's political science class and listening to his lecture on Eisenhower's warning about the military-industrial complex."

      Yet you seem to know an awful lot about the events in question.  Kinda makes me wonder if you are telling the truth about where you were...

      •  In 1963 I was in 8th grade (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        devtob, Catte Nappe

        and I know a lot about the events in question too.  Wanna make something of it?

        •  I was a sophomore in high school (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          devtob

          and know a dang lot about the event as well. It was a surrealistic moment that still haunts me. And it's one reason I get so irritated with all the hate-Obama crap I read here.

          It doesn't take a lone gunman. It DOES take enemies on Wall Street, in the military, and in the CIA. I am thankful every day for this incredibly courageous man. (And this is one reason I am so grateful to BWD and others who recognize his grace and grit - and are so very thankful for it.)

          "Statistics are people with the tears washed away." Sociologist Ruth Sidel

          by Vicky on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 05:44:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  hr'd for CT not to mention offensive title (5+ / 0-)

      blech.

      I ♥ President Barack Obama.

      by ericlewis0 on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 10:54:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is not the right venue for this kind of... (7+ / 0-)

      discussion, sorry.

    •  HR'ed for Conspiracy Theories (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      elmo, Inkin, emilysdad

      Posting conspiracy theories is an instant ban offense, per Kos himself.  He has no patience with that shit.

      Insert cryptic phrase that only means something to select group of insiders here.

      by soonergrunt on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 10:56:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Some of this, yes (7+ / 0-)

        But I don't think Markos ever mentioned JFK assassination theories. I'm not saying THIS diary is only about that... it goes into some other pretty weird stuff. But as for just the JFK assassination... I really don't think Markos has an issue with that. At least I sure hope not, since the most ridiculous JFK theory I know of (and I've studied this a LOT) is what the Warren Report spewed forth.

        "Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media." -- Noam Chomsky

        by ratmach on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 11:23:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Really? (5+ / 0-)

          I really don't think Markos has an issue with that. At least I sure hope not, since the most ridiculous JFK theory I know of (and I've studied this a LOT) is what the Warren Report spewed forth.

          That's the most ridiculous theory you've read?

          More ridiculous than the claim that Frank Sinatra's drummer was the shooter?
          Or that there was indeed a second shooter on the grassy knoll, but that this was sheer coincidence - there just happened to be two assassins who both shot the President at virtually the same instant, but neither was connected to the other in any way?
          Or that he was accidentally shot by the Secret Service agent in the next car back in the motorcade?

          I find it hard to believe that anyone who has studied this a LOT hasn't stumbled across at least a dozen wild-eyed ramblings of craziness that are leaps and bounds more ludicrous than the error-filled, though hardly deranged, Warren Commission Report. And deranged is exactly how to describe about 50% of the 'theories' out there.

          •  Ok, notice I even rec'd your comment (0+ / 0-)

            Because you're right... my first comment was hyperbole. I noticed that after I wrote it, and very nearly added an amendment, but I didn't think anyone would notice. Then again, hadn't counted on YOU. ;p

            Ok, so obviously my line about the Warren Report being the "most ridiculous JFK theory I know of" wasn't meant to be taken literally since, like you said, there are some REALLY far-out theories out there. And personally I'm not happy about that, since those kinds of theories allow people to lump even the well-thought-out reasonable theories in with the bizarre ones.

            I guess my point is that the Warren Report should be considered, at least in part, a fairy tale by NOT just "conspiracy buffs", but by the population in general. The fact that it's still "respected" by so many people is what bugs me, I guess.

            "Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media." -- Noam Chomsky

            by ratmach on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 11:51:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  HR'd for CT (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      elmo, Inkin, emilysdad

      Go watch Oliver Stone if it makes you feel better.

      Fluorescent, flat, caffeine lights / It's furious balancing

      by CayceP on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 12:24:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Give it a rest. Nobody cares (4+ / 0-)

      This stuff has been endlessly rehashed to death already. And anyways it's ancient history. You might as well be debating who really killed Archduke Ferdinand and who poisoned Kaiser Wilhelm the I.

    •  The other investigation (0+ / 0-)

      In the late seventies the House conducted another hearing on the assassinations of both JFK and Martin Luther King Jr.  Are you going to play their findings as the "ace of trump" card when to silence the readers demanding that Kos bans you for CT’ing?
      Well, you can’t fool me because I already know about their findings.  (Ha!)

      The Report of the Select Committee on Assassinations of the U.S. House of Representatives
      in its conclusions the Report states:

      Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President. Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations

      And it also concluded:

      The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy

      They also note that:  Bibliographic note: Web version based on the Report of the Select Committee on Assassinations of the U.S. House of Representatives, Washington, DC: United States Government Printing Office, 1979. 1 volume, 686 pages. The formatting of this Web version may differ from the original.

      Just because that report backs your claims, do you think that’s good enough to make patriotic red blooded Americans doubt the Warren Commission?

  •  Oh come on (3+ / 0-)

    Kennedy conspiracy theories are SO two decades ago. I'm totally confused by the new HR policies so I'll let someone else take the plunge if they feel so inclined to do so, I don't want to break the new rules.

    "Of all the varieties of virtues, liberalism is the most beloved." -Aristotle
    Follow me on Twitter!

    by weatherdude on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 10:28:17 PM PDT

    •  New rules? (0+ / 0-)

      I'll have to go check the FAQ.  

    •  Two decades? 4 at least, lol! n/t (0+ / 0-)

      Moderation in most things. Except Reactors. IFR forever!

      by billmosby on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 11:21:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  JFK theories aren't covered, as far as I know (3+ / 0-)

      It's mainly 9/11 stuff Markos wants no part of. Still though, this diary goes way beyond just JFK stuff. Don't let this poorly handled diary speak for the SERIOUS JFK theories out there.

      "Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media." -- Noam Chomsky

      by ratmach on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 11:27:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I was thinking the (5+ / 0-)

        same thing. Kennedy theories aren't CT in that sense. And they aren't so nutty. It's too far back to matter. This is a different world. I would be surprised if the management cares. The event is too old for anyone in this forum to care (although I remember where I was -- actually not far from the white x). I have spent decades visiting the place because I was born there. I drove over the x on my way home from work daily for years. The point is the diaries and the film are obvious exaggerations of the distance to the fifth floor window. The shot wasn't impossible or even so surprising, especially with a scope. Kennedy was murdered by parties unknown. It was business, organized crime, or government forces of some kind, but they used Lee Harvey Oswald to do it. Why else was he "hit" by a known mobster before he could talk. It's all too obvious. Lee Harvey Oswald shot Kennedy from the window, and Jack Ruby shot Oswald to silence him. And that's that. The interesting questions are why Oswald did it, and they will never be answered unless something new is declassified at some future date. It's not really a conspiracy. Just a murder that someone got away with because the only people who could be unequivocally tied to the crime and the cover-up died before they talked. No big deal. It happens every day!

        Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't.
        Mark Twain

        by phaktor on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 02:28:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I believe it is today's world (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Preston S

          when the same shadowy figures still control the reins of power. Obama is at serious risk when he takes them on.

          It's about today.

          "Statistics are people with the tears washed away." Sociologist Ruth Sidel

          by Vicky on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 05:47:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think social (0+ / 0-)

            control in the United States is obviously much more technical, organized, scientific and corrupt than is believed. I don't disagree with you at all in that sense. Yes, there are secret powerful forces that arrange, plan, and profit from what is presented to us as natural social processes or random events. It was FDR, I believe, who said you can bet anything important that happens in politics is planned. Everything is choreographed. There are no random events, and the cover story is never real truth. We wouldn't know the truth if there was one. Our society operates on good stories -- stories that make sense based on our limited and inaccurate knowledge. We wouldn't be able to process and understand the truth because it isn't compatible with our strongest beliefs and assumptions. See my sig line -- Mark Twain said it best. That has been true since the dawn of civilization. Some people use words and some are used by words. There is a vast range of intellectual ability among humans, and the smarter ones control the rest of us, exploiting our ignorance and our commitment to ethical principles, exploiting our erroneous beliefs, and exploiting our need to maintain an illusion of justice and safety.

            My reasoning here is that the people who did this either may or may not be the "same people" who are in control today, as you suggest. In fact, the question becomes, "In control of what?" There is more than one group of powerful people ... more than one covert army. Even if we could discover, through good investigative work, some more facts about the Kennedy assassination, it wouldn't necessarily help us today. The powerful and covert forces that control our lives morph constantly and change constantly in response to environmental contingencies. Finding out the who and the why that was operating then may be completely irrelevant today.

            There are good explanations for the killing that don't involve black helicopters or military industrial complexes or Republicans or spy networks or secret CIA  political motives. One of the more obvious groups with motive and opportunity was the good old-fashioned mob -- the Mafia. When you take into account Bobby's assassination, and the typical peculiar way in which that was carried out, the mob explanation looks a lot more appealing. Bobby, as attorney general under the supervision of John, was pressuring the mob in a good, old-fashioned, honest law enforcement kind of way. He was going after them. He wanted to put them out of business for good, which would obviously be a moral goal for a moral attorney general. The administration was going after them in an unprecedented way. It wouldn't be so absurd to suspect the mob routinely kills government officials who threaten them, and that they did this, too. The mob kills people every day. We know it. They still do. We don't even think of it as a big newsworthy deal anymore, and we don't lose sleep over it as a people. We don;t even seek explanation or "the truth". We just chalk it up to the mob, and accept it. We also know they are an incredibly powerful covert organization, they pull off incredibly sophisticated operations by using inside people, and nobody ever seems to talk. They tend to get away with what they do. It's just a given that they are there, and anyone who encounters them simply obeys and hopes to get out alive. They literally own cops, officials, janitors, bureaucrats, executives, doctors, secretaries, street vendors, and every other kind of person that can be used to pull off crimes and enforce their wishes. This "conspiracy" isn't anything that everybody doesn't already know about. What is there to "uncover"? It's a fact of life and most people accept it as something we can't do anything about. So what if you actually catch one of them through competent investigation? They don't care. They are compartmentalized and they compute the risk and cost of prosecution and conviction into everything they do. Catching one or more of the people involved doesn't stop them. It's a systems problem -- the limit of the extent to which law is enforceable.

            If I were to have to actually believe something, I think I would believe they killed JFK, and Bobby, too. I think they did it in simple retaliation for enforcement activity brought to bear by the administration. No black helicopters. No secret world order conspiracy. No military industrial complex (except to the extent that they are in bed with them, too). Just a plain old mobster murder for plain old mobster reasons.

            Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't.
            Mark Twain

            by phaktor on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 10:33:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  The birthers (0+ / 0-)

          see a conspiracy behind the fact that everyone who was present at Barack Obama's birth is now dead. Coincidence? I think not!!

        •  Agree and disagree (0+ / 0-)

          Agree that at least two shots came from the rear. Agree that others were invovled (I think Mafia and CIA). And agree that Oswald was, obviously, involved. But my and your definition of "involved" would differ. You think Oswald's intent was to help kill Kennedy, and that he fired the shots. I think Oswald's intent was to (VERY naively) help to PREVENT the assassination, and that he did NOT fire a shot.

          As I said in another comment, to get into this would require many, many, many pages... a normal diary wouldn't even come close to doing it justice. I'll just say my opinions are based on reading just about every publicly-available piece of evidence out there. And yeah, I was alive when the assassination took place, too (though didn't live in Texas).

          But as for this being old news, and that there's nobody left to punish if we COULD find new solid evidence? Maybe true. But I think there's another reason to keep looking... that being how history has/will continue to label Lee Oswald as the killer. I know you disagree with me... you think he WAS a killer. But just for the sake of argument say he WASN'T. How horrible to be maligned in such a way, while the REAL murderers just laugh.

          "Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media." -- Noam Chomsky

          by ratmach on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 11:40:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You may be right. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ratmach

            See my response above. I am not sure I agree with your ideas about why we should spend more time on it, though. I am a victim of an organized criminal group. I have yet to be killed, but I am being punished for something I did as a stupid kid who didn't understand the world and was mentally ill. I am being made an example -- a scarecrow to convince people to respect the group. Nobody sees any reason to help me set the record straight or clear my name or stop my harassment. When I am successful in proving to someone that I am being persecuted and harmed by an organized group, they don't see any reason get to the truth. They just accept it and try to get me to accept it. In the world of professional criminal deception, truth has no value. There is really nothing to "uncover". There are just more lies and more cover-ups and more deceptions. It is an endless series that goes in circles. There is no end to it. There is no way to "win" -- no final truth. The only way to cope is to think about them in a different way. The linear, analytic, Western European idea of uncovering the essential truth and fixing the broken part in the machine is useless. One has to take a different perspective to survive, and it doesn't involve that way of thinking. I don't think we will ever know the truth about those events, and I am not sure it would help us if we did.

            Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't.
            Mark Twain

            by phaktor on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 10:54:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm sorry for the trouble you've had (0+ / 0-)

              The "organized criminal group" you speak of sounds an awful lot like how our own gov't (and the people behind the scenes who pull the strings) works. Part of the reason why I've always been pretty cynical about things, and especially about real "change". I admit to being caught up in the campaign and election of Obama, and for a short time I put aside my cynicism and hoped for something big to happen. But even though it's not as bad as it was, it's become pretty clear that the same old crowd is still basically in charge.

              "Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media." -- Noam Chomsky

              by ratmach on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 11:27:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Actually Jane you should delete this diary (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      elmo

      or report what you saw and felt and NOT delve into conspiracy theories. That is verboten on DKos!

      Amazing the Time I waste Here! Sometimes it's not wasted though!

      by raster44 on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 11:33:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Conspiracy theory shit - please delete (11+ / 0-)

    How can I be folk? I'm from the suburbs.

    by MnplsLiberal on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 10:28:52 PM PDT

  •  Kindergardeners and naive tourists don't make (7+ / 0-)

    good crime scene investigators, do they?

  •  Best source to counter this shit (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mother Shipper, emilysdad, Gatordiet

    How can I be folk? I'm from the suburbs.

    by MnplsLiberal on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 10:34:39 PM PDT

  •  "So I did some research." Sure you did. (10+ / 0-)

    And according to autopsy photos at http://www.celebritymorgue.com/...  we can clearly see that one bullet entered Kennedy's head from the right -- and one entered at the middle of his back. And a third one entered his neck from the FRONT. What's with that? Oswald really did fire a miracle shot! Or else Kennedy was shot as he approached the Grassy Knoll, passed in front of it and was driven away from the shooter(s)?

    Or, you need to do more than just look at photos--you need to understand something about the dynamics of bullets hitting flesh and bone--where what looks like an exit wound is really the entry point, and vice-versa.

    Just like many experts have already done.

    Please, take the amateur sleuthing elsewhere....

    "Certainly the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you; if you don't bet, you can't win." Lazarus Long

    by rfall on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 10:34:58 PM PDT

  •  The punk got lucky (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ahianne, elmo, 5x5, terabytes, emilysdad

    That's what most conspiracy theorists refuse to believe - that sheer blind luck could have had anything to do with it.

    Sheer blind luck has a lot to do with everything, as this silly diary itself makes quite clear.

    If it's
    Not your body
    Then it's
    Not your choice
    AND it's
    None of your damn business!

    by TheOtherMaven on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 10:35:12 PM PDT

  •  Memories... (7+ / 0-)

    I was in typing class (9th grade) when I heard about the killing.

    We had gone out to the airport to see the President's party off to Ft. Worth the night before. We lived in Houston. We, being kids, got to stand under one of the planes with its engines idling before the limousines showed up; I remember leaning into the warm exhaust. It was not the President's plane, but they had two of them. Maybe one was for the press.

    One other thing, my father worked for the Zapata Offshore company at the time as one of its executives, and George H. W. Bush was his boss then.

    A picture of G. H. W. Bush at the depository with a question mark? I remember the day pretty well, my father had been at work as usual; I remember it because it was the only time I ever saw him cry, as he got out of his car when he got home. If his boss had been in Dallas that day, he would have known and would have said something about it.

    The event has been hashed over countless times. What's up with this diary?

    Moderation in most things. Except Reactors. IFR forever!

    by billmosby on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 10:37:05 PM PDT

  •  There's also the minor fact (8+ / 0-)

    that Oswald was trained as a Marine sharpshooter, which means, in layman's terms, that he was pretty fucking good at hitting targets with a rifle. From a long ways off.

    Harry Reid: Float like Barney Fife, sting like Aunt Bea.

    by MeMeMeMeMe on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 10:42:51 PM PDT

    •  Was Oswald that good? (5+ / 0-)

      Evidence in the Warren Report, however, shows that Oswald barely qualified as a marksman, the lowest of the three Marine classifications of expert, sharpshooter and marksman. He scored 191 on a scale of 190 to 250.

      "In Dallas Oswald was equipped with a bolt-action, clip-fed, 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano rifle and a four-power telescopic sight. His target -- the Presidential limousine -- was only 88 yards away from his sniper's nest. At that distance, with that scope, a trained marksman could scarcely miss."

      The Mannlicher-Carcano was a cheap, old, unreliable make, known in the Italian Army as the "humanitarian rifle," on the ground that it could not hurt anyone on purpose. It was testified that the scope on the rifle was mounted for a left-handed user. Oswald was right-handed. Also, the sights were misaligned, and shims had to be inserted to aim properly.

      The Warren Commission conducted simulated test firings, a pointless exercise as they took place after corrective adjustments of the scope and sights. Even so, none of the Olympic-class Army riflemen who participated in the tests were able to duplicate the alleged feat of Oswald in firing so rapidly and accurately.

      Proponents of the Warren Commission have never clearly explained how it reached conclusions contrary to so much of the evidence it itself assembled.

      Amazing the Time I waste Here! Sometimes it's not wasted though!

      by raster44 on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 11:09:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Of the three levels the military assigns (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wilderness voice, Randy Flagg

      to qualifying marksmanship scores, 'sharpshooter' falls in the middle, actually a "C" if we were talking academic grades. Not actually that great.

    •  Oswald was rated"marksman" - the lowest (0+ / 0-)

      rating n the Marines.

      "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

      by bobdevo on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 04:28:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Please delete (8+ / 0-)

    This is not conspiracy clearinghouse.

    Watch this space. -5.13/-3.38

    by Grannus on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 10:44:00 PM PDT

  •  I think you meant (10+ / 0-)

    well but CT isn't something you can post here. You should delete.

    Vote for me to win a Netroots Nation Scholarship! I'm in 7th place!

    by indiemcemopants on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 10:46:14 PM PDT

  •  There is much more comprehensive research (7+ / 0-)

    into the subject than you have cited.  Dr. Crenshaw, the physician on duty at Parkland, who autopsied both Kennedy and Oswald, has a decent, though somewhat subjective book.  Russ Baker did an exhaustive study of Mr. Bush's personal and business connections to the events of the day.

    Conversely, Mailer, with just as much dogged research, makes a plausible case for an actual lone-nut scenario.

    I won't join the "Delete" chorus, but there is nothing new or substantive here, though I appreciate how moving, and puzzling, Dealey Plaza can be on first encounter.

    •  Yes, Dealey Plaza was a very moving experience... (9+ / 0-)

      and has indeed inspired me to read up on the subject -- and to even further regret that we lost John Kennedy on that tragic day.

         Thank you for understanding what an emotional experience that is -- even 47 years later.

    •  Thanks for the Russ Baker link. (7+ / 0-)

      As I mentioned above, my Dad worked as an executive for the Zapata Offshore Oil Co. from 1957 to 1965, and George H. W. Bush was his boss. I remember tht my dad used to travel all over the world setting up contracts for the drilling platforms that the company leased out. One trip was to Cuba around 1959 not long before Castro fell. Seemed like any other of his business trips to me, but sometime in the early 70s my dad mentioned that it had been for the CIA. He never said anything else about it. I was surprised a few years ago to find that my dad's old interoffice memos ended up in the Bush library. If you feel like going to that site, do a text search on Mosby and you will see the listing. Kind of takes me back, as it lists a number of other people my dad worked with at the time.

      Moderation in most things. Except Reactors. IFR forever!

      by billmosby on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 11:20:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So Bush did work for the CIA for most of his life (3+ / 0-)

        I thought the connection between Zapata and the CIA  was a conspiracy theory but I guess not.  

        "When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

        by lakehillsliberal on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 12:29:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I would have said emphatically that it was CT. (4+ / 0-)

          I'm just not so sure now. Partly because the company would have made a good front, operating as it did overseas in a lot of places, so that part might be plausible, but my dad was an alcoholic so I never believed a lot of what he said anyway. But he did say the Cuba trip was CIA related, and also hinted that other work and travel was also, and then he kind of shut up about it instead of harping on it continually like a drunk might be expected to. So I've gone from not believing in such a CT to wondering if something else was going on besides building drilling platforms and renting them out. Zapata was a pioneer in that technology, I do believe that, as my dad made lots of trips to LeTourneau when they were building the first ones; so they were actually pretty busy with the business of the company in the mid 50s through the mid 60s. In fact, my mom was featured on the cover of one Zapata annual report (1958?) christening the Scorpion, the first one. But that's all I really know about the business. I didn't turn 10 until 1959 and thus was mostly out of the loop about what was really going on in that sphere.

          Moderation in most things. Except Reactors. IFR forever!

          by billmosby on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 06:00:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  If I hadn't written this... (8+ / 0-)

    ...then you wouldn't have had anything to bitch about tonight and your whole evening would have been dull, dull, dull.  No need to thank me.

  •  My understanding is dKos doesn't allow (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kalmoth, ratmach, Eric Nelson, Randy Flagg

    conspiracy theory diaries. But if it did, you'd have to establish some bit of expertise regarding the use of a notoriously poor military rifle with a scope so ill fitted it had to be shimmed before the military marksmen could even attempt to duplicate the feat of marksmanship. I'm sure you mean well, but failing to establish any expertise and failing to provide any other real evidence, it's hard to give this diary much serious attention.

    •  As I said in another comment... (5+ / 0-)

      ... I don't think JFK theories are covered. It's mostly 9/11 stuff that's prohibitted. But I agree completely with you that to REALLY get into JFK theories, and to give it the attention it deserves even in very basic summary form, would take a diary 100 pages long... minimum. There are literally millions of pages of research that's been done over the decades on this. And despite what some would still like to believe, the "lone nut" theory is the single most ridiculous theory out there.

      "Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media." -- Noam Chomsky

      by ratmach on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 11:37:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  i find it amazing that so many "well educated" (6+ / 0-)

    free thinkers run like hell whenever this and a couple other "ideas" rear their heads. i was only 11 when kennedy died, and it was pretty apparent even then that here was something very odd afoot. sometimes taking another look at things is warranted.....sometimes not.

    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.~Voltaire

    by Randy Flagg on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 11:31:22 PM PDT

  •  and thank you, jane. i appreciate anybody who is (5+ / 0-)

    willing to post a diary, especially one that's sure to be a lightning rod!

    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.~Voltaire

    by Randy Flagg on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 11:33:25 PM PDT

  •  The Mother of CT. Motherhood is good n/t (0+ / 0-)
  •  motherhood certainly works for me! (0+ / 0-)

    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.~Voltaire

    by Randy Flagg on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 11:49:51 PM PDT

  •  HR'd (6+ / 0-)

    Oswald joined the Marines in 1956, where he qualified as a sharpshooter in 1956, though his skills atrophied a bit and he only made marksman in 1959.  That is, he hit a target at 200-500 meters on most, but not all attempts, in various positions of varying comfort and convenience.  The target is typically eight inches in diameter.  

    With three years of Marine training, it would be harder to believe that Oswald shot three times from the Book Depository and missed all three shots than to believe that at least one or two shots hit.

    Therefore the HR, for CT.

    2009: Year of the Donkey. Let's not screw it up.

    by Yamaneko2 on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 11:57:24 PM PDT

    •  I embedded with the Marines in Anbar province, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bigjacbigjacbigjac

      in Hit and Haditha.  But I never saw them shoot anything while i was there.  Next time I embed, however, I'll be sure to ask them if they have an opinion about this.

         Perhaps Oswald got further training later on?

      •  My dear Jane. (0+ / 0-)

        You were imbedded?  You worked as a reporter, embedde with Marines?

        I looked at your diaries, just the first 18, skimmed over.

        I see you as a member of this Daily Kos community who has a great deal to offer.  You write diaries that are unique, not the same old same old.

        I must repeat what I wrote at the bottom, I am on your side.  I feel that those who hide rated your tip jar did not check your diaries, to see if you are a crackpot, or a smart Kog who should be taken seriously.

        Once again, lots of believers do not make a conspiracy theory correct, but a special commission's stating a thing does not make it true, either.

        Peace.

  •  First time I was in Dallas (9+ / 0-)

    I had the same reaction as you.  Once I saw the scene, I said no way Oswald acted alone.  First off, why would he have waited until the shot was at its hardest for him?  Oswald would have had a much better shot as Kennedy approached or passed the book depository, nit after he had already passed.  On the other hand, if you had another shooter on the Grassy Knoll and you wanted to coordinate fire, if you were Oswald, you would have to wait.  No shot available from grassy knoll until the point where the shots actually occurred.

    Second, if you wanted to make an exit, you'd shoot from the grassy knoll.

    It took me about five minutes on scene and one viewing of the tape to conclude there was more than one shooter.  I don't know exactly what happened, but the official story is BS.

    •  All I have to say is that we have had a great (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      k9disc, G2geek, Ice Blue, billmosby, Bluefin, Joieau

      many successful lone gunman in our history.  In other countries they have confirmed conspiracies, we have only lone gunman.  Interesting, when you think about it.

      "When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

      by lakehillsliberal on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 12:33:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oswald, Booth, Ray... It's a conspiracy! (0+ / 0-)

        And do you notice that they all have Jewish last names?!?

        I think the Mossad did it!

        •  O.k. name another country where lone gunmen (0+ / 0-)

          have been so incredibly successful at changing the course of a countries history...please don't forget Sirhan, Sirhan or Ruby.  If it were not for him, we would not be discussing this at all.  I not saying there is a CT or not but I think it's interesting and an anomaly.  

          "When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

          by lakehillsliberal on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 09:40:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Most of Europe. Remember Gavrilo Princip? (0+ / 0-)
            •  One...and wasn't that Franz Ferdinand in 1914 (0+ / 0-)

              and wasn't Princip a member of a terrorist organization, not a lone gunman.  Interesting note on our presidents, we have had 8 presidents out of 44 die in office, 4 murdered and 4 from natural causes. You have approximately, a one in six chance of dieing during your term once elected President of the United States.  Plus we have six attempted assassinations, Andrew Jackson, Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan.  We are every bit as violent as any third world country.

              "When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

              by lakehillsliberal on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 10:44:31 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Obviously Princip changed the history of most (0+ / 0-)

                European countries far more than any American assassin or all of them put together.

                O.k. name another country where lone gunmen have been so incredibly successful at changing the course of a countries history...

                But I'll agree he wasn't a LONE gunman... but then neither was Squeaky Fromme and John Wilkes Booth also apparently had confederates.

                •  Squeaky like Mark David Chapman were actually (0+ / 0-)

                  the truest cases of lone nut jobs.  Princip only changed history because he was used by the Germans as an excuse to do what they wanted(and probably would have) done anyway.  

                  "When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

                  by lakehillsliberal on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 11:22:11 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  My dear Jane: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vicky, Preston S

    I support you, I recced this diary, and tipped the tip jar.

    I was in elementary school, Manchester School, Kansas City, Missouri, when JFK was shot.  I was angry at the situation, as a little boy who understood very little of the big picture.

    My sister, Lois Gibson, is the world's most successful police sketch artist, and certainly an expert at identifying or matching two photos of faces, to say if the two photos are of the same face, or not.  She knows, for example, that ear cartilage is like fingerprints, each ear is unique.

    Here is a link to a site that lays out what my sister told me years ago.

    She told me that the three 'hobos' arrested at Dallas the day JFK was shot were Charles Harrelson, Charles Rogers, and Chauncy Holt.  Chauncy Holt came forward some years ago, and my sister confirmed their identities by comparing, for example, mug shots of Charles Harrelson with the blonde hobo in the photo, etc.  Since Chauncy Holt came forward, my sister posed him with the same lighting as the hobo photo, and it is a very obvious match.

    And, after my sister told me this, I saw an interview of Woody Harrelson on TV, and the interviewer asked Woody if his father was involved, or if his father shot JFK.

    Woody answered that people need to understand that his father was trained by the CIA.

    He did not deny that his father shot JFK.

    Click on the link.

    To all of those who hide rated Jane's tip jar, and told her to delete this diary, I simply do not agree with you at all.

    While I do not feel that having a huge number of people supporting a conspiracy theory is, in itself, a solid piece of evidence, I am convinced that simply because there is an official explanation, stated by a special commision, that that means the special commision must surely be correct, no matter what.  I feel that each of us should examine evidence and consider motives.

    I will not get any deeper into this at this time.

    Peace.

  •  I wonder what's the deal with 'Bush Sr. (0+ / 0-)

    invented the Gulf War'?

  •  wow. The reichwing Obama haters have nothing (5+ / 0-)

    on the Kossak conspiracy drubbers, do they?  Ya'll need to chill, mmmmkay??

    Two things about this diary:

    First, the whole Oswald-as-the-lone-assassin thing was dreamed up by none other than J. Edgar Hoover, which says it all.

    Second, the theory that one bullet did all the killing was the product of Arlen Specter -- surprised?

    From reading the vicious tone of some of the commenters on this thread, it looks like the ones who pulled off the assassination were as successful in their debunking of attempts to explain what actually happened in Dallas on 11/22/63, as they were in doing the deed.

    If there is/was nothing to all the conspiracy theories about JFK's assassination, then why are some of the documents related to it still withheld from the public until 2038?

    What are they hiding?  and why?

  •  Where the shovel is buried... (0+ / 0-)

    In the recent movie "Shooter", with Mark Wahlberg, the main character, who has been set up and framed for an apparent attempted assassination attempt on the president, is on the run trying to prove his innocence.

    He visits an aging expert on guns and munitions in East Tennessee. During the course of the conversation, the FBI agent that has hooked up with the Wahlberg character makes some skeptical remarks about conspiracies, and in particular the Kennedy assassination.

    The old gun codger explains that the real assassins from the grassy knoll are buried out in the desert. And then tosses in the tidbit, "And I've still got the shovel".

    At the end, the utterly corrupt United States Senator and his chief operative are tracked down and killed by the Wahlberg character, since the justice system has ignored their manifold crimes. As he prepares to shoot the blustering Senator, the Senator proclaims, "But I'm a sitting United States Senator". "Exactly", says Wahlberg, and delivers the coup de grace.

    Interestingly enough, this movie, which is basically a very well done conspiracy action thriller genre piece that blows a lot of stuff up real good, is filled throughout with lines that must drive the right wing audience members out of their minds. It is a total indictment of the Bush and Cheney administration and their illegal war for profiteering and money in the Middle East. No buts about it. I was amazed the first time I watched the movie to discover that this was a strong theme throughout the movie.

    "We must become the change we want to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi

    by HeartlandLiberal on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 04:54:42 AM PDT

  •  The logical fallacy here... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wee Mama, elmo, 5x5

    ....is to think that if someone succeeds at something unlikely, it's implausible.  Let's say he had a 1% shot (so to speak).  99 times out of 100, he'd miss and either we'd never know or he'd be a footnote to history.  Well, he didn't miss.  It happens.

    It's like saying that the British Monarchy must be a lie because it's so implausible that anyone would be Queen of England...it's a 6 billion to one shot.

    When your dream comes true, you're out one dream --The Nields

    by Rich in PA on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 05:00:38 AM PDT

  •  Three bullets (6+ / 0-)

    fired; all three casings found on the 6th floor belonging to Oswald's rifle. Oswald's finger prints on rifle. The two bullets found were from Oswald's rifle. The entry wounds in JFK's body came from behind. The rifle found was proven to be Oswald's.

    It is weren't for the fact that it was a president who was shot, this case would have been a no brainer for anyone. The evidence is all there.

    •  Don't forget (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wee Mama, elmo, Catte Nappe, Ice Blue, 5x5

      There is film footage of a rifle sticking out of the sixth floor window of the book depository.  Lots of people saw the gun as the shots were fired.  There is the story of the guy on the fifth floor of the book depository with his head out the window looking up when he heard the shots and seeing the gun.  Just because every single bit of evidence was not included in the Warren Report doesn't mean it didn't happen.  

      Darned facts.

      On the opinion side, when I stood in the sixth floor window and imagined what happened with a rifle and scope, remembering what it was like as a kid who hunted deer in Montana, it was like shooting Presidents in a barrel.  I hate guns.

      I always knew in the next world I'd be on my own.

      by BurningFeet on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 06:12:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Conspiracy theories simply won't die (0+ / 0-)

      no matter how many facts you have that discredit them.

  •  What seems to be a big part (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vicky, Preston S

    of continuing questions on this crime is the fact that the Warren Comm. seems to have made up their minds (or were told) what the outcome would be before they started the investigation.

    Let tyrants fear.-Queen Elizabeth I

    by Virginia mom on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 05:28:53 AM PDT

    •  And their findings were debunked by the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Preston S, Joieau

      second official commission (United States House Select Committee on Assassinations) that came to the conclusion Oswald didn't act alone. That committee studies the political assassinations of the '60's and found the Warren Commission and FBI reports "seriously flawed". That there were likely at least four shots and at least two gunmen. They found a conspiracy "probable".

      When an official government body finds a conspiracy was probable, the IDEA of a conspiracy is no longer a "conspiracy theory"!

      "Statistics are people with the tears washed away." Sociologist Ruth Sidel

      by Vicky on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 06:01:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Wow, you did it Jane. You just solved the great (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raines, Wee Mama, Catte Nappe, Ice Blue

    perplexion of the 20th century!  Who could'a thunk that an Ex-Marine who had underwent the most intensive rifle training in the armed forces could fire off three shots at 45, 78, and 103 yards and find their mark when the most yards he fired at a Marine rifle range was 500 yards at a shoulder and head silhouette...who?

    "These are people of the land. The common clay of the new west. You know.....morons!" -The Waco Kid

    by fedorko on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 06:03:48 AM PDT

  •  It would be interesting to know if there is (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wee Mama, Preston S, leftykook, Joieau

    a correlation between the age of posters to this diary and their attitude towards the diary.

    "Statistics are people with the tears washed away." Sociologist Ruth Sidel

    by Vicky on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 06:07:11 AM PDT

    •  Bet yer right. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Preston S

      People involved with covering this up are still involved in our politics to this day.

      Events from nearly 50 years ago reverberate thru our land, and people want to crack wise with the diarist?

      There are so many ridiculous inconsistencies in the official story they just overwhelm anyone who looks into it.

      Just pick out one or two parts of the story and the whole edifice of cards collapses.

      Just the number of bullets and wounds to JFK and Connally don't add up, and how in the hell does a bullet go thru the President out the front of him, then hit Gov Connally, THEN wind up lying on the stretcher at the hospital with a tiny little nick in it's nose?  Just that ONE inconsistency causes the entire heap of bullshit to collapse.

      I won't suggest that I know what happened that day, but I'm firmly convinced that what the Warren Commision said about it wasn't it, and the US Congress agrees with me, buncha CT nuts....

      And don't even get me started on the treacherous, traitorous, murderous Bush/Walker clan...

      "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

      by leftykook on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 07:06:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm sure there is, although (0+ / 0-)

      I suspect it isn't for the reasons you're thinking and more related to the political coming of age for people in 1968. But, it's for another diary.

      Fluorescent, flat, caffeine lights / It's furious balancing

      by CayceP on Sat Apr 24, 2010 at 02:55:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  JFK was shot twice - (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wee Mama, 5x5

    he has two wounds. One to the back of the head and one in the upper back. One bullet was removed from his body. What happened to the second bullet? It came out of his throat. It had to land somewhere. If not hitting John Connolly, then where is it? The bullet that hit Connolly was matched to the rifle on the 6th floor.

    The second Commission on the JFK assassination I believe was debunked. They were going by muffled sounds they thought were more rifle shots. It turned out the sounds came from police motorcycles.

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