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Author's note: For years and years now, it's been really hard for me to write anything in favor of Palestinians because there are always so many repercussions. Sure, I don't receive death threats any more like I used to but there are still all those nasty e-mails to deal with. Bummer. Why bother? Why should I stick my cyber-neck out again and again for people who are living way over on the other side of the world? There are too many injustices here at home for me to object to. Why bother looking for them elsewhere?

And who wants to be unpopular? Who wants to buck the tide? Who wants to alienate the majority (once again)? Not me!

But now I've just learned that Dr. Mazin Qumsiyeh, a former Associate Professor of Genetics, director of Clinical Cytogenetic services at Yale University School of Medicine and a professor at Bethlehem University (and also a Palestinian Christian), was just arrested by Israeli occupation forces for peacefully protesting land seizures and home demolitions in the West Bank near Bethlehem.

Here's Dr. Qumsiyeh's account of the incident: http://karmalised.com/...

And you can just bet that if someone who has been a professor at the prestigious Yale School of Medicine can get arrested for standing up for justice, then who can guarantee that anyone else is safe from arrest -- either in the occupied West Bank or even here in America, the country that basically pays for the West Bank's occupation.

So I decided to go ahead and post my latest blog essay on Palestine anyway. Screw the weirdos who send me threatening e-mails. A person's gotta do what a person's gotta do. Justice is on my side!

Gaza or bust: Hey, that's my Promised Land too!

I'm all scheduled to go see Barbara Streisand and John Gresham at the 2010 Book Expo in New York City on May 25. This is a terrible thing. Rats!

"And why, exactly, are you complaining about that?" you might ask. "Seriously, Jane. There are a whole bunch of people out there who would give their right eye-tooth to be able to see Barbara Streisand live and in person!" And I might even be one of them -- but my big problem is that now I've just developed a disastrous scheduling conflict.

"Guess what, Jane?" e-mailed my friend Janet. "An extra place has just opened up on the European boat flotilla that's sailing from Greece to Gaza soon, and I think they can fit you in. You'd be leaving for Greece on May 19. Can you do it?" Rats and double-rats! This means that I'm going to have to chose between Barbra Streisand and taking a boat trip from Greece to Gaza, where people are trapped and dying. Gaza today is like how things used to be during World War II. Everyone there is either busy reenacting the results of Axis siege of the Warsaw Ghetto or else the Axis siege of Dunkirk -- only without all those little English sailboats to the rescue, except, hopefully, for this new European Flotilla.

Plus this flotilla will set sail on the 70th anniversary of the relief of the siege of Dunkirk. How historic is that!

Who could possibly make a choice between Barbra Streisand and and the relief of Gaza? Not me!

So. What should I do??? Should I be getting my freak on with Barbra? Or is it time to go off to Gaza, fight against injustice, get a hot scoop for my blog -- and get a once-in-a-lifetime chance to regenerate my Muslim roots as well?

One of my pet peeves in life these days is when people keep sanctimoniously telling me what I can and cannot do. "Jane, you need to start going along with the crowd more," they say. That's not gonna happen. I'm too old for that.

I hate it when people tell me that I can't write about the Kennedy assassination or all those holes in the official 9-11 story. But even more than that, I really hate it when people keep telling me that I can't even MENTION stuff about injustice in Palestine and/or that individual Muslims all over the world are being demonized collectively.

Heck, I'm even afraid to even hint gently that perhaps -- just perhaps -- I might be a Muslim too. Why? Because whenever I do mention that fact, then people start pouring out of the freaking WOODWORK in order to call me a baby-killer or a communist or a terrorist or Lord-knows-what other kind of social or political leper. Well. Despite all this pressure to conform, every once in a while I become contrary enough to want to flaunt my Muslim-ish-ness -- if for no other reason than to remind myself that I'm not just one more mindless Teabagger sheep.

So get over it. I'm a Muslim. Burn a cross on my lawn if you must. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. I even wrote a book about Islam. "Mecca & the Hajj: Lessons From the Islamic School of Hard Knocks". Order it here: http://www.amazon.com/... You can't get much more Muslim than that. Humph.

Not only that, but the various fundie wingnuts who now run the Israeli government with an iron hand are always ranting and raving on about wanting to seize what small bits of land that are now left to Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and Old Jerusalem -- and how these small bits and pieces now lived on by Palestinians need to be absorbed into the Israeli wingnuts' Promised Land too.

I hate to burst your bubble, guys, but, as a Muslim, that area you are trying to grab up is actually MY Promised Land. That's MY property you're talking about. Your claim to that particular patch of real estate has been invalidated by a more recent deed to the property. Doesn't anybody around here ever read the Talmud, the Bible or the Quran?

As a Muslim, my deed to the Promised Land is newer than the Israeli wingnuts' deed. My deed was written later. And any real estate broker will tell you that a newer deed always holds precedence. And that means that my deed to all this section of the Promised Land trumps theirs. Get over it.

Not only that but Old Jerusalem is a UNESCO World Heritage Site -- MY world heritage site. As a member of the United Nations, I get possession of Old Jerusalem too. You think not? Read the fine print.

So. Should I go over to Gaza and set everyone over there straight -- or should I just go see Barbra Streisand instead? I'm completely torn. What would YOU do?

PS: Someone from the Free Palestine Movement recently suggested the perfect solution to my dilemma. "All you have to do is just ask Barbra Streisand to come on the boat flotilla to Gaza with you." Works for me.

PPS: And while we're on the subject of Teabaggers and wingnuts, the wingnuts in Arizona all have a lot in common with Israel's wingnuts. First of all, both are in control of governments that have enacted laws that clearly support violence, intimidation and racism over democracy and the right of all human beings to be free.

Second, Palestinians owned the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem and Old Jerusalem before the Israelis arrived -- and Mexicans owned Arizona before the Americans arrived. Both Americans and Israelis then seized possession of "disputed" territories by force. And now both American and Israeli wingnuts are all complaining and whining because the people that they originally seized all this land from still want it back.

Third, both the Israeli wingnuts and the Arizona wingnuts use false rhetoric to bolster their claims. If you disagree with Teabagger wingnuts, they won't argue the facts with you but rather will simply call you names -- claim that you are un-American or, shudder, socialist or whatever.

And if you disagree with the Israeli wingnuts, they will simply call you antisemitic. End of discussion. Well, here's what I've got to say about that. "If the wingnuts, fundies and Mossad agents who currently run the Israeli government want to stop whining about the rise of antisemitism, then they had better stop acting in ways that endanger their reputations and actually encourage antisemitism. They had better stop acting like murderers and liars. Nobody likes a murderer or a liar, no matter what religion they profess -- be they Jews, Christians or Muslims. And lying and murdering with impunity in the Holy Land is giving Judaism a very bad name."

I would hate to see Jews worldwide become shunned and avoided solely because of the tricks that Netanyahu's wingnuts are up to. Plus don't you just hate it when hypocrites whine?

It's like when Sarah Palin advocates hunting wolves from helicopters and then whines about being slurred by environmentalists. Or when Palin goes to Arizona, stirs up a shipload of racism and then whines that she is being misunderstood by the press.

It's like when Bush and Cheney claimed to be goody-goody Christians and then set off a firestorm that eventually killed over a million people in the Middle East -- and then Bush and Cheney started whining that we Americans who advocated for peace were acting anti-Christian.

It's like when the Taliban burned down all those girls' schools in Afghanistan and then whined about Americans all being anti-Muslim when we objected.

You can't have it both ways, guys. Either you always take the moral high ground no matter what the cost -- or you don't. You can't just PRETEND to take the moral high ground. People have a way of eventually finding out the truth. Plus being able to master the art of being fair, moral and just, even if it kills you, is what separates human being from animals. And it is also the goal of ALL of our religions.

PPPS: And, no, I'm still not done venting about religious hypocrisy. Here are even more ventilations from me:

Just because some idiot Saudis may or may not have blown up the World Trade Center, I'm supposed to hate all Muslims? That doesn't make sense.

Just because some idiots in Israel blew up Jenin, Nablus, Lebanon (twice), Gaza and parts of Bethlehem, I'm supposed to hate all Jews? That doesn't make sense.

And just because some idiots in Washington who claim to listen to Jesus blew up Iraq and Afghanistan, I'm supposed to hate all Christians? That doesn't make sense either.

PPPPS: And while I'm still in tell-all mode, I might as well confess that I am even more of a pariah than just being a good Muslim in a time when all too many Americans consider Muslims to be terrorists. I am also a good Jew, a good Christian, a good Buddhist and probably even a good Hindu -- I take yoga one a week!

But what aggravates me most about Americans today is that, even after our great country has flourished and bloomed for the past 200 years under democracy and religious freedom, when the going starts to get tough for this generation all too many of us ignore both democracy and religion completely -- and turn to fascism.

****

Please vote for me so that I can get a scholarship to the Netroots Nation convention in Las Vegas this July! Vote here: http://www.democracyforamerica.com/...

Originally posted to Jane Stillwater on Sat May 08, 2010 at 10:21 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

    •  9-11 trutherism is a bannable offense (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades, livosh1, sofia, hikerbiker

      Just because some idiot Saudis may or may not have blown up the World Trade Center...

      Consult the FAQ:

      DailyKos accepts that the 9/11 attacks were perpetrated by agents of Al-Qaeda

       Authoring or recommending these diaries may result in banning from Daily Kos.

      •  Sileince any 9-11 doubt? (0+ / 0-)

        You know propaganda is about delegitimizing decent. I don't see why you would bother with such a vague statment about events none of us really understand. There are questions about it, and I want people to asking because when the next big cover up happens I want someone around with the courage to reject  propaganda and keep asking. That might be more useful than a place in the mainstream of a overtly and obvoiusly corrupt political, financial, and educational system that is slowly eating our country from the inside out.

        •  kos has stated very clearly that he will not (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          livosh1, Noah in NY, fizziks, alizarin

          tolerate trutherism on his blog.

          And here you are, encouraging it:

          There are questions about it, and I want people to asking because when the next big cover up happens I want someone around with the courage to reject  propaganda and keep asking.

          You seem to be suggesting that 9-11 was a "big cover up"?  Did I misunderstand?

          Maybe there's another blog out there somewhere, better suited to you.

          Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

          by hikerbiker on Sat May 08, 2010 at 07:31:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  why did you HR the diary (0+ / 0-)

            because of that quote or what?

            Previously I posted under the user name palestinian professor, which is now deprecated. I now post under my late grandfather's name simone daud.

            by simone daud on Sat May 08, 2010 at 07:50:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If I could have, I would have HRed this diarist (5+ / 0-)

              for having the single most annoying tone I've ever read anywhere. Seriously.

              But I HRed her for the bogus Warsaw Ghetto analogies.  I don't find the truther shtick to me charming, either, but maybe it's just me...

              Thanks for your interest.

              Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

              by hikerbiker on Sat May 08, 2010 at 08:09:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  there are many reasons to HR the diary (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              hikerbiker

              but that quote alone earns it an unambiguous HR, and if the site rules were followed to the letter, it would earn the diarist (and the recommenders) an immediate ban.  But MB is being generous.

              •  I think Simone (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                livosh1, fizziks

                is asking because he hopes we'll admit that we don't give a damn about Palestinians.

                So sorry to disappoint Simone.

                It's shameful that he would have the chutzpah to ask such and "innocent" question when this diary is so full of flagrant offenses.

                So here again, for those who are blinded:

                1.  Godwin
                1.  Truther

                Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                by hikerbiker on Sat May 08, 2010 at 11:50:45 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  You're walking a tightrope... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          livosh1, sofia, fizziks, hikerbiker

          ...on this:

          ...events none of us really understand. There are questions about it, and I want people to asking because when the next big cover up happens ...

          I refuse to accept "no can do" as a proper slogan for progressives.

          by Meteor Blades on Sat May 08, 2010 at 08:19:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  oh please. nobody is being silenced (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          livosh1, hikerbiker

          This is Kos' private blog and he has laid out a few unambiguous rules of his choosing.

          You and anyone else are free to peddle your ridiculous and narcisistic conspiracy theories elsewhere in cyber space, and in fact anywhere in real space.

      •  kindly, go get lost (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ptah the Great, JDsg

        and don't disrupt the diary.

        what do you fear huh?

        that something sympathetic to the poor Palestinian refugees, the destroyed ethnically cleansed indigenous people of Israel will appear on dailykos.

        this is a class of bigotry that is astounding to me. you want to shut down our story, you don't want us to exist and so you disrupt

        on your tantrum, al-Qaida are Saudists and part of the Saudi inspired groups that emerged and splintered from Saudi anti-leftist cold war policies. There is no conspiracy theory in that.

        Previously I posted under the user name palestinian professor, which is now deprecated. I now post under my late grandfather's name simone daud.

        by simone daud on Sat May 08, 2010 at 04:30:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm uprating the comment (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ptah the Great, JDsg

          because of the bullshit HR.

          If fizziks takes down his HR I'll consider taking down my uprate.

          Previously I posted under the user name palestinian professor, which is now deprecated. I now post under my late grandfather's name simone daud.

          by simone daud on Sat May 08, 2010 at 04:31:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The diarist says ... (6+ / 0-)

          ..."some idiot Saudis may or may not have blown up the World Trade Center."

          That is not a vague statement. It clearly calls into question whether Saudis AND members of Al Qaida brought down the towers. That's a forbidden subject here.

          As for Gaza being like the Warsaw Ghetto, that is a forbidden comparison, and it's been a forbidden discussion for nearly a year. Say what you will about Gaza, but do not repeat that bogus comparison.

          I refuse to accept "no can do" as a proper slogan for progressives.

          by Meteor Blades on Sat May 08, 2010 at 08:23:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well (4+ / 0-)

            Jews in Europe experienced horrors far greater than those experienced by Palestinains, something that I agree with.  

            However, moral ambiguity and moral indifference to Palestinian suffering  is facilitated by the claim that the Jewish experience in Europe was not normatively comparable in any way with the ongoing experiences of Palestinians.  

            I see this at the Yad Vashem Museum overlooking the depopulated Palestinian villages and places of great Palestinian suffering and its deliberate use to turn faces away from those villages: to concentrate the mind on the European experience and numb the mind into indifference towards the Palestinians that suffered and suffered in the museums surrounds. I see it regularly in writings of Israeli policy makers. It is deliberate and a tool for fortification of moral ambiguity towards Palestinians.  

            I understand that that's not what you have in mind.  I also understand the need for the policy on dailykos. I also understand that there is no way of addressing the issue that I raise above in terms of policy. But I think that the blanket ban should be more hermetic.

            Previously I posted under the user name palestinian professor, which is now deprecated. I now post under my late grandfather's name simone daud.

            by simone daud on Sat May 08, 2010 at 11:34:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I'm gonna explain my position on this work. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            borkitekt

            It's only my two percent of a buck.

            Re: The WTC reference in the diary - It was a passing reference and was made as part of a larger argument against hatin' on Muslims over the event.  It's certainly NOT the main or even a secondary or third-ary vein of the diary's main point.  I feel that focusing on those seven words in the context of their usage is awfully picky as they play an insignificant role in the overall diary and are easily overlooked.

            Re: The Warsaw Ghetto reference and the Nazi references that go with it - Yep, it's wrong and I disagree with that crap being used.  I dunno that I've ever seen the diarist in an I/P discussion before, so she's likely not as familiar with the finer rules specific to I/P (especially about Nazis) as are the rest of us, but she still shouldn't have stuck that in there.  The comparisons are wrong and don't belong.

            I'm torn on the HR, though.  If one takes out the Warsaw Ghetto and Nazi garbage, the diary makes valid and coherent points.  On the other hand, she uses a tone in much of the diary which has too much "edge" on it.

            Even as I write this, I'm trying to convince myself that droppin' a doughnut on this is the right thing to do in that I don't feel that the diarist had any malicious intent in her use of these references.  She's passionate.  Yes, understandably so when one considers her heritage.  When the diary as a whole is taken into account, it doesn't seem to me that an HR is entirely appropriate.  Could I drop a half-donut, I'd certainly do so.  She's in desperate need of considerable guidance on writing reasonable I/P diaries, but not a major smackdown.  Still, the tone and the rules violations irritate the livin' shit outta me.

            So, I'm gonna err on the side of caution and consider the good of the website and the diarist's future here (assuming she still HAS a future here).  Hence, for the Warsaw Ghetto comparison and the unsavory tone used in much of the diary I'm gonna have to reluctantly

            HR

            this diary.

            In search of syrup to go with my waffles,
            Celtic Merlin
            Carlinist

            Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

            by Celtic Merlin on Sun May 09, 2010 at 02:00:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  And aren't Gaza=Warsaw Ghetto analogies bannable? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        livosh1, fizziks, alizarin

        Meteor Blades, please remind us.

        Gaza today is like how things used to be during World War II. Everyone there is either busy reenacting the results of Nazis' siege of the Warsaw Ghetto

        Jane, the day the Israelis plan to gas to death every single Palestinian and then burn all their corpses in ovens, as was done to my family, then you will be entitled to make Nazi analogies.  

        Until then (and that time, thank heavens will never, ever come) just shut the fuck up about the Nazis.  You clearly don't know the first thing about them.

        Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

        by hikerbiker on Sat May 08, 2010 at 07:23:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nazi analogies are forbidden (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JDsg

          but nevertheless there are significant similarities between the lives of people in Gaza under Israel's siege and life of people in the Warsaw Ghetto. In particular, the starvation, malnutrition, cramped conditions, blockade, armed resistance, and smuggling.

          Of course, Israel is not planning to gas the Gazans. But those that do not see the similarities between the lives of Gazans and those of Jews living in the warsaw Ghetto  are being wilfully sectarian.

          And I'm saying this because you started this conversation with the unneeded  
          second paragraph in your post, which in itself deserves a response and cannot simply go unchallenged.

          Had you ended your post with the question and the quote, you would not have illicit a response from me.

          Previously I posted under the user name palestinian professor, which is now deprecated. I now post under my late grandfather's name simone daud.

          by simone daud on Sat May 08, 2010 at 07:49:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Read Meteor Blades' comments in this thread (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            livosh1, fizziks

            and then leave me alone.

            Had you ended your post with the question and the quote, you would not have illicit a response from me.

            You just look like a jerk when you patronize others. And you also appear to be blind in one eye.

            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

            by hikerbiker on Sat May 08, 2010 at 09:31:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, so Nazi analogies are forbidden... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            livosh1

            so why don't you just go right ahead and elaborate on one???

            (shakes head)

            And I'd likely get HRed if I posted a Farfur the Mouse video, but your comment gets an uprate!  Wow.

            You deem yourself worthy of dishing out a lot of advice on this blog, Simone.  But there's a lot of work to do to prepare your community in Palestine for viable statehood...Maybe, Simone, you should spend less time on this American political blog and more time helping the Palestinians figure out how to govern themselves effectively.

            Just sayin'.

            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

            by hikerbiker on Sun May 09, 2010 at 06:28:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh my fucking god. (3+ / 0-)

              Where the hell did you get this idea that you would be hr'd for posting a picture of the character?

              Whoever told you that is a liar.

              As for this:

              Maybe, Simone, you should spend less time on this American political blog and more time helping the Palestinians figure out how to govern themselves effectively.

              In conjunction why don't you spend time working in your community to convince people about the need for Israel to butt the fuck out of Palestinian lives so we can do just that?

              Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

              by unspeakable on Sun May 09, 2010 at 11:16:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  1. No one told me. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                fizziks, Captain C

                It's an original thought. I recently noticed that someone was HRed for posting a photo of little Palestinian kids shooting rifles, apparently in training.  Can't remember the exact context now, but I do remember that the HRs were completely unjustified.  It looked to me like censurship, as if showing anything at all troubling about what goes on on the P side is an outrage.

                Meanwhile, the donut throwers were the ones whose sole focus, day and night, is to point to the crimes of Israel and Israel only.  Putting aside the unfairness  and hypocracy of that (which hardly matters, actually) it's deceitful and most importantly unpragmatic.  

                Yes, terrible injustices and more have been done to Palestinians, and this must be remedied, as soon as possible and as well as can be done.  But the dynamic between both sides has not been so rosy on either end.  At least you are honest enough to admit that.  

                What do you think about Simone's part in this dialogue?  ("Nazi analogies are forbidden, but here let me tell you why this situation is analogous...") He's spitting in my eye (and Kos' and MB's) and getting away with it.

                The Palestinian people are much better served by a spokesman such as yourself.  (and you know this isn't false flattery.)  

                1.  I am.  But of course there's always more work to be done.  I am so outspoken now about the need for justice in Palestine that there are family members and friends I simply cannot discuss it with anymore.  I recently got into a heated discussion with a woman in the synagogue parking lot, when she started saying that all the Palestinian's in the videos of protests she sees are so well-dressed that their complaints must be over-exaggerated.

                Look, unspeakable, you are a rare treasure on this blog, for many reasons.  But one of the things I most respect about you is that you actually look with a critical eye at Palestinians, too -- not only at Israelis.

                I don't read even a fraction of what goes on here, but in what I've read I don't remember once seeing one word of critique for the Palestinian side coming from Palestinians or their supporters.  Everyone but you paints this rosy Shangri-la picture of a secular and democratic Palestine suddenly popping up overnight, the minute the Israelis withdraw from the West Bank and lift the siege on Gaza.  Well, you are knowledgeable and honest enough to know that this won't happen so fast.  You are looking with a critical eye at the political troubles which already exist on the Palestinian side, as we also look critically at the Israeli side.

                It's really good to see that non-violent protest is happening and growing among Palestinians.  But we know that this isn't the whole picture (neither is it on the Israeli side, or in the US, for that matter).  

                What I see on this blog is an effort by Israel's supporters to understand the crimes on our side and to do something to promote positive change.  

                On the P side, I mostly see the same old one-sided slamming of Israel, without ever recognizing that Palestinians have also contributed to the mess, through the years.  This dialogue in I-P can't be productive if people refuse to even attempt to understand the others' perspective.  And Simone's comments here are a perfect example of that.

                And now I shall race out the door and spend some time with my mom on Mother's Day.

                I hope you'll have the chance to do the same.

                Take care.

                Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                by hikerbiker on Sun May 09, 2010 at 12:26:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  callmecassandra, soysauce

                  In response to your number one, even if it was unjustified (which at this point no one can tell since there is no link to it), that doesn't suggest a rule about not posting critical comments of Hamas.

                  As for the rest of the comment, there is much irony in you saying this:

                  What I see on this blog is an effort by Israel's supporters to understand the crimes on our side and to do something to promote positive change.  

                  while in another diary people on your side are making, as usual, false accusations of antisemitism and saying that Palestinians aren't sufficiently worthy of advocacy.

                  And if

                  I don't read even a fraction of what goes on here

                  why are you making judgments about what people do and don't do?

                  The fact is that I see much more defense of Israel's crimes than anything else from people on your side. Every time Israel kills another innocent Arab, there is no shortage of people calling for "context" and blaming the victim. What passes for people on your side trying to "understand" Israeli crimes is laughable on most days.

                  But in any case this is a theme that I'm seeing has emerged over the past few weeks. On this site, the defenders of Israel are more moral and conscientious, while my side is plagued with moral blindness and amorality. And as usual, I'm the lone "exception" that proves the rule. I'm the "good Arab" that you guys think you can use to insult the other Arabs on this blog.

                  Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                  by unspeakable on Sun May 09, 2010 at 04:39:18 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Are you really suggesting that I view you as (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    livosh1, volleyboy1

                    a "good" anything?  Well, you happen to be one of the people here whom I've come to respect, but you're really not held up on a pedestal.  And there are some others I admire who aren't even aware that I read their work.  But you are far from good, maybe mediocre at best, (lol) and you certainly aren't the closest Palestinian to me currently or in my past.

                    And I really couldn't care less if you were Irish Catholic.

                    And are you really claiming that I have used you to "insult the other Arabs on this blog"???  Huh?  Was I not justified in confronting Simone here?  What do you think about his flaunting Godwin in this thread?  He knows it's offensive and against the rules but he also knows he'll be uprated for the crap.  His analogy is about as offensive as my claiming that the fact that our community Jewish school was not allowed to be established within a residential area in DC is somehow analogous to the situation for Palestinians in Jerusalem.  It's BS.

                    Re: the other diary:  I don't recognize nor support that poster.  He is not a regular here and I don't share his perspective.  Has anyone uprated him?

                    Re:  your 2nd link:  I remember that someone recently suggested that Palestinians weren't worthy of our advocacy, but I don't see that here.

                    And is it, as you claim, so "usual" for false accusations of anti-Semitism to be made?  Do you believe that this happens more often than there are actually anti-Semites spewing filth here?

                    Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                    by hikerbiker on Sun May 09, 2010 at 09:54:22 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  What you did in your comment (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      soysauce

                      was point to the supposed morality of the people who defend Israel, saying:

                      What I see on this blog is an effort by Israel's supporters to understand the crimes on our side and to do something to promote positive change.  

                      And then contrasted that with the supporters of Palestinians among whom you:

                      mostly see the same old one-sided slamming of Israel, without ever recognizing that Palestinians have also contributed to the mess, through the years.

                      That is a ridiculous, unfair, and untrue characterization. I strongly take issue with it, and I take  issue with you using me as a rhetorical weapon against people I respect. You're not the only one who's done it, but I'll ask you not to do it please.

                      As for this:

                      And is it, as you claim, so "usual" for false accusations of anti-Semitism to be made?  Do you believe that this happens more often than there are actually anti-Semites spewing filth here?

                      I was referring to the particular poster who always accuses people he disagrees with of antisemitism. My wording was imprecise on that. And I really don't see how the second link in comment, where the poster says he agrees with proud2bliberal isn't suggesting that Palestinians don't deserve support. He very clearly does, and he's supposedly one of the moderates in your midst.

                      Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                      by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:14:29 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Bullshit..... (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    livosh1, JNEREBEL, hikerbiker

                    This is f'ing ridiculous:

                    On this site, the defenders of Israel are more moral and conscientious, while my side is plagued with moral blindness and amorality. And as usual, I'm the lone "exception" that proves the rule. I'm the "good Arab" that you guys think you can use to insult the other Arabs on this blog.

                    You know what... this is so wrong and especially when you make this in return to hb.... Stunning in exactly how far from the truth this can be.

                    "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                    by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 11:39:17 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yet somehow (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      soysauce

                      you don't dispute hb's claim that all Palestinian supporters on this blog do is  

                      the same old one-sided slamming of Israel, without ever recognizing that Palestinians have also contributed to the mess, through the years.

                      That is perfectly accurate.

                      Whatever.

                      Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                      by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:16:00 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  First of all (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        livosh1, JNEREBEL, hikerbiker

                        what the heck (biting my tongue on a stronger word) does that have to do with your ridiculous comment about you as "the Good Arab"? hb really likes you personally and you toss that bullshit at her? She never made either of the claims you ascribe to her and your comment was unwarranted.

                        As to the distraction comment.... I would say there is a lot less responsibility taken on one side than the other here at DKos. I see supporters of Israel being critical of the ruling structure of the State and the policies that the coalition is pursuing. I for one do not see the same level of self-criticsm.

                        Further, I ask any Pro-I people here if hb and I are alone in this or does this sound about right. I am curious to see what others think.

                        "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                        by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 01:07:30 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Yes, (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          soysauce

                          you guys are so moral and circumspect. Meanwhile, my side is morally blind.

                          Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                          by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 01:19:32 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Cry me a river (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1, JNEREBEL, hikerbiker

                            That is not what I said... don't make it out to be that is what was presented.

                            Saying this:

                            I see supporters of Israel being critical of the ruling structure of the State and the policies that the coalition is pursuing. I for one do not see the same level of self-criticsm.

                            my exact words.

                            is not the same as saying this:

                            Yes, you guys are so moral and circumspect. Meanwhile, my side is morally blind.

                            You take a big leap there - and frankly it is not justified. Period.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 01:30:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, Alec82, soysauce

                            I will not cry you a river. You and hb characterized Palestinian supporters as unwilling to criticize Palestinian leaders for being wrong, and then invite other pro-I users to confirm this silly view for you (as if they're opinion somehow holds some special authority). When I dispute that, you get upset and order people to do physiologically impossible feats to appease you.

                            Fact is, we regularly criticize what passes for leaders on the Palestinian side. We just don't criticize them the way you want us to. That's what you all are talking about here.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 01:50:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  My Gosh what color is the sun (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1, hikerbiker

                            in your version what passes for reality.

                            First of all:

                            You and hb characterized Palestinian supporters as unwilling to criticize Palestinian leaders for being wrong, and then invite other pro-I users to confirm this silly view for you (as if they're opinion somehow holds some special authority).

                            Why do we bother writing things in conversation if THIS is what is going to be the result. First of all, unspeakable, context is everything.. my comment was that Pro-I comnmentors would tell me if hb and I were alone in seeing this or did others see it the same way. Their opinions don't hold any special value but they would serve to confirm or deny whether hb and I are unique or not.

                            When I dispute that, you get upset and order people to do physiologically impossible feats to appease you.

                            I would not call what I am as upset... Kind of stunned is more like it and "Cry me a River" is not a demand for physiologically impossible feats it is more of a slang term.

                            So I must ask in response to this comment:

                            Fact is, we regularly criticize what passes for leaders on the Palestinian side. We just don't criticize them the way you want us to. That's what you all are talking about here.

                            How do we want you to criticize your leaders - since you seem to know. And really, that might be what you are talking about - we are talking about somthing completely different.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:14:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I love that you're stunned (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, Alec82, soysauce

                            that I would dispute your characterization of myself and others as blind to the immoral failings of Palestinian leaders.

                            And you accuse me of living in a fantasy world?

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:24:05 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  There is only one problem (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1, JNEREBEL, hikerbiker

                            it is not my characterization of you - I dispute your characterization OF MY characterization of you. Your characterization seems to be grounded in a world not like our own. I am not sure what plane or dimension but not one that we inhabit.

                            As for you being

                            blind to the immoral failings of Palestinian leaders.

                            Oh I never said that. But hey keep making stuff up. I hear FOX is looking for new writers. You could make some money over there.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:58:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Let's be quite clear here: (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, soysauce

                            All you and hb have been doing is touting the morality of your side, how you guys supposedly try to deal with the crimes that Israel commits. And all you've been doing is attacking us for supposedly never criticizing Palestinian leaders.

                            When I dispute that, as has become usual, you attack my mental capacities and my integrity. You imply that I'm insane, that I hallucinate, and that I'm a liar.

                            I don't expect you to change your behavior, of course. This is just for the record.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:36:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No I don't think (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker

                            you are liar or insane but you are hallucinating about what I am saying. You are putting "words in my mouth" and I don't appreciate it. When I don't appreciate things that is when I get a tad vicious. You are saying things that I didn't say - and phrasing it in ways that is most unfair.

                            Sorry man, but, in these cases you are wrong and you are wrong about this:

                            And all you've been doing is attacking us for supposedly never criticizing Palestinian leaders.

                            Simply put - not true. Now stop it.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 10:10:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  sounds right to me. (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          livosh1, volleyboy1

                          while both 'sides' do some level of self-criticism one side does a much higher level than the other.

                          And this relates not only in terms of the states involved but also the participants here.

                          "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                          by JNEREBEL on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:04:53 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  self-criticism:It's that Jewish guilt thing again (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL

                            (They will be offended by the heading to this comment, assuming that I'm suggesting that they are saying we're guilty...But, as I'm sure you know, I am referring to the individual sense of Jewish-flavored guilt that has been passed down from generation to generation, together with our brass candlesticks and maybe a kiddush cup.)

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Mon May 10, 2010 at 05:51:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  That's typical of the attitudes (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                soysauce

                that we are used to.

                In fact, it's a reaction to the utter inability to rationalize their moral inadequacies and their unethical  perspectives  in the presence of a handful of articulate Palestinians.

                It is the condition of all who support oppression and turn a blind eye to obvious evil.

                Previously I posted under the user name palestinian professor, which is now deprecated. I now post under my late grandfather's name simone daud.

                by simone daud on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:31:26 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  What next Hiker? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              soysauce

              how far are you willing to go down the path of turning your face away from the evil being carried out?

              Blaming the Palestinians is the first step:

              Maybe, Simone, you should spend less time on this American political blog and more time helping the Palestinians figure out how to govern themselves effectively.

              Palestinians are living in refugee camps and nothing but ending the oppression that has  been meted out by Israel to them, will help us.

              Nothing but a complete fall of the racist ideology that has slithered into our homes and that has rendered us eternal refugees, treated like vermin in our own land.

              Previously I posted under the user name palestinian professor, which is now deprecated. I now post under my late grandfather's name simone daud.

              by simone daud on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:37:10 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I am very well aquainted with work being done (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

                around the world by NGO's which supports the development of Rule of Law in undemocratic or developing nations.

                Laying the groundwork for a functioning civil society will be important to ensuring that the transition from occupied to independent will go as smoothly as possible for Palestinians.  

                The rosy picture some of you paint, suggesting that by merely lifting the Israeli shackles you will somehow miraculously discover the hidden democratic and secular Palestine is a fantasy.  It's a nice fantasy, and one to work toward making real, but how some of you can claim with certainty that this will happen overnight is baffling.

                You apparently don't have clue who you are addressing here, Simone.  How far will I go in turning my face away from the evil?????  I wouldn't be here reading I-P if I didn't want to face that.  It would be pretty easy to avoid, if I wanted to, since Palestine obviously doesn't get the top story in the New York Times or CNN anymore. And I wouldn't be on Mondoweiss, watching the videos and reading, if I didn't want to face it.  What the fuck are you talking about?!?!???

                Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                by hikerbiker on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:18:20 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Your comment to simone (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  callmecassandra

                  asking him to work within Palestinian society is more than condescending.  Palestinians in Israel are working to keep their culture and communities alive.  The fact that Simone knows Arabic is miracle enough given the place he lives in.

                  He is talking about people trying to survive in the worse possible conditions--refugees that have been attacked and starved many times over.  That they exist still and labor on is a miracle.

                  For you to put conditions on the terms of their freedom is arrogant.

                  We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

                  by soysauce on Mon May 10, 2010 at 09:32:13 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  "conditions on the terms of their freedom"?!?!? (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

                    What in the world are you talking about???

                    I have done no such thing, and I'm not qualified to do so, either.  I am an interested party but I am not and won't be on the negotiating team.  I don't know what you're referring to, at all.  

                    You seem to have decided that I am the Enemy now.  Never mind that we both want peace.  You can't tolerate any diversity of opinion on how to get there, and so you interpret every word I type in the most negative light.  

                    I have been responding to Simone's constant condescension and his flaunting of Godwin with the bogus Gaza=Warsaw Ghetto analogy.  Interesting that you would use the word arrogant with reference to me...I wonder if trying to communicate with Simone, who I have found to be the single most arrogant person I've encountered on Dkos, has brought out that streak in me.  I'm actually quite humble in real life, and I stay away from arrogant people whenever possible.

                    I know that Palestinians struggle to keep their culture and people alive.  And I wish to heaven that this would not have to be a struggle. (And you don't need to tell me about loss of language when millions of Yiddish speakers, including my own family, were slaughtered in one swoop.  the best way to destroy a language is to kill all it's speakers and make the rest of them ashamed to speak.)  For all the destruction in Palestine, at least the Israelis saw fit to make Arabic an official language, printed on every street sign and the money.  My Israeli relatives studied Arabic in public school and some also in college in Israel.  So I would hope and expect that the Arabic language would not soon meet it's demise.

                    Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                    by hikerbiker on Mon May 10, 2010 at 10:40:57 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  hb (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JNEREBEL, hikerbiker

                      Don't even bother.... Reality and certain posters here don't seem to be mixing.

                      "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                      by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 11:44:55 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  If you actually read Arabic, (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      soysauce

                      For all the destruction in Palestine, at least the Israelis saw fit to make Arabic an official language, printed on every street sign and the money.

                      you would have an understanding of the Jewish dominance Israel metes out in its Arabic signs.

                      Even in Haifa, whereas the English signs are actual translations of the Hebrew, the Arabic signs are sometimes just transliterations. They don't even bother providing the Arabic names.

                      Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                      by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:26:15 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  That's pretty bad. I've seen worse, though. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        volleyboy1

                        I lived in a country where the language of the majority population was suddenly required to be printed only in Cyrillic.  Made it pretty confusing for the natives, and also for a new student of Russian such as myself when all the Uzbek street signs in Uzbek appeared to be Russian.

                        Your tone is a bit condescending here, unspeakable.  "If you actually read Arabic" is rather obnoxious.  

                        I never claimed to know Arabic.  What you don't know is that I sat in on a few Arabic classes in the US and England and never stuck with it.  I chose to focus my foreign language studies on three other languages, instead.  Please excuse me.

                        And anyway, I was way too busy working to improve this world to have time to study a fourth foreign language.

                        Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                        by hikerbiker on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:07:38 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  For someone who has been to Israel (0+ / 0-)

                    The fact that Simone knows Arabic is miracle enough given the place he lives in.

                    Really... an Israeli Arab not knowing Arabic?

                    What facts are you going to make up next?

                    "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                    by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 11:43:36 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  hmmm... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      unspeakable, simone daud

                      You know Arabic is more than a spoken language, right?  To know literary Arabic, you must study it and use it.  For close to 20 years after 1948, no Arabic books were allowed into Israel.  Palestinians of Nazareth, for instance, were forced to hand-copy literature brought in by Iraqi Jews.  

                      Here's an interesting study about Arabic in Israel.

                      And really, stop accusing me of making up facts.  I'm simply more informed on this issue than you and hiker.  You need to do your own research.

                      We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

                      by soysauce on Mon May 10, 2010 at 11:53:13 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Holy crap you mean Arabic (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        JNEREBEL, hikerbiker

                        is written as well??? I had no idea. (sacasm 101)...

                        Your comment was this:

                        The fact that Simone knows Arabic is miracle enough given the place he lives in.

                        You made no comment regarding forms of the language - just the language itself. And it not a freakin' miracle that he knows it either. Being a tad dramatic for the crowd are we?

                        A buddy (who happened to be Palestinian) that I played basketball with in the afternoons at Haifa knew Arabic, wrote Arabic, and this was in 1982. Was that another miracle?

                        "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                        by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:06:04 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Oh, so you have a Palestinian friend. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          unspeakable

                          You must know all there is to know then. sorry for the confusion.

                          We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

                          by soysauce on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:19:25 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Yet again.... not the point (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, hikerbiker

                            but thanks... I know grandstanding takes time.

                            You made a point regarding knowing Arabic. You did not specify form you just used the term "Miracle" to describe that someone knows Arabic in Israel today. Even the paper you cite (which is interesting in any case) mentions that Arabic is spoken yet is a secondary language in Israel, not a "dead language".

                            If you exaggerate you are going to get called on it, just as I do, or anyone else does. As you are well aware outsiders read these blogs - If you are going to play to them then at least be accurate.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:27:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Again, (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            soysauce

                            read up on the differences between spoken and written Arabic. Just because you speak Arabic doesn't mean you'll be able to understand the written form.

                            She isn't exaggerating. You just don't know Arabic.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:31:17 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Again (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, hikerbiker

                            I admit I don't know Arabic. Further, I admit I don't know nearly as much as you or soy regarding that.

                            BUT that is not what I am talking about. I am saying, and that is not what I objected too.

                            People, outside the 20 of us who regularly participate in I/P... (ok it might be more than 20 but not a ton more) read these diaries and take in information. The statement that I commented on is far different from a statement such as:

                            "It is difficult in Israel to learn historical or literary Arabic forms - it is impressive that Simone knows this..."

                            that is far different from:

                            The fact that Simone knows Arabic is miracle enough given the place he lives in.

                            which implies that Arabic is either outlawed or not spoken in Israel - neither of which is close to true. At least not yet.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:37:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Dude, (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            soysauce

                            I've explained this already. This isn't about "literary forms." This is the normal, modern, written prose that we're talking about. You have to learn it in school in order to be able to write and speak about academic, medical, governmental, financial, etc., issues. You can't know Arabic without knowing this language, which was inaccessible to Palestinians.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:41:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sigh... now we are cross posting (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker

                            Here is something I just found. I will be asking some Israeli friends regarding this as well.

                            http://www.palestine-pmc.com/...

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:52:05 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That wasn't the point of the statement. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            unspeakable

                            I was commenting on hiker's statement to simone to work within his own community to clean up their shit, as she said in so many words.

                            The issue is that Palestinians in Israel are working hard to preserve the little that is left of their cultural heritage.  

                            Palestinians and Arabs in general are crazy for poetry.  If you don't know literary Arabic, the oral and written poetic traditions die.  People know less and less about who they are and where they come from.  The struggle inside Israel is to remain Palestinian in a place hostile to that identity.

                            We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

                            by soysauce on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:41:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I agree with you regarding (0+ / 0-)

                            literary history and that is important. Again, you may have been making a different point but, I and I am sure others read the point the way I mentioned above.

                            I am all for teaching of languages both written and spoken, formal and street. They like art are an important marker of a culture... And here points are made based on them. That is my point to you - see what I said to unspeakable.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:56:55 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I am sympathetic to this. (0+ / 0-)

                            The struggle inside Israel is to remain Palestinian in a place hostile to that identity.

                            But yet again, you misunderstand my meaning.  I'm sure my tone with Simone was unfriendly.  I was responding to his usual condescension and his provocative elaboration of the Nazi analogy.

                            But I stand by what I wrote.  I do have insider's knowledge of work being done in developing countries and it's very obvious that Palestine needs to prepare itself for independence.  

                            This is no joke, especially when we all hope for what you've described as a secular and democratic Palestinian state.  And, especially since those living under occupation have not had adequate opportunity to self-govern, civic and legal education could help to prepare citizens for living within a democratic society.

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:26:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Why do assume that work is not happening (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker

                            in Palestine?  Palestinians are preparing for their independence and have quite capable leaders.  

                            What exactly are you asking?  Do you want assurances that we  can be trusted with freedom?  This is what you appear to be demanding.

                            We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

                            by soysauce on Tue May 11, 2010 at 07:45:25 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I know that it is (0+ / 0-)

                            happening.

                            I would love to have assurances that every country, including the US, could be trusted with their freedom.

                            So I guess the answer is yes.

                            But I'm not "demanding" anything.

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Tue May 11, 2010 at 09:58:51 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Last summer, this conference included people (0+ / 0-)

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Tue May 11, 2010 at 10:01:52 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  How hypocritical, soy. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

                            It wasn't beneath you to mention, months ago, that your best friend is Jewish...why jab at volley for mentioning the same thing, now?

                            We all have friends of many different backgrounds, including Arabs and Muslims and (shocking!) also Palestinians.  

                            No one here lives in a tribal cave.

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:15:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, my best friend is not Jewish. (0+ / 0-)

                            You must be thinking of someone else.  

                            I have many Jewish friends but I don't extrapolate their views to represent the entirety of the Jewish experience.

                            We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

                            by soysauce on Tue May 11, 2010 at 06:53:36 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL

                            Maybe I've lost my mind, but I specifically remember you mentioning your Jewish friend... maybe this was your second best friend?

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Tue May 11, 2010 at 01:26:31 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Uh yes it is. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          soysauce

                          You really don't know anything about the very vast differences between spoken Arabic and written Arabic. If you did, you'd understand why.

                          Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                          by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:23:32 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh no it's not (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, hikerbiker

                            I realize there are differences between the two and no I am no expert and I am sure I don't know as much as you or soy do on the subject (not being sarcastic - admitting reality) but a "miracle".. No. Hard work, effort, willingness to learn all most likely true. Miracle... nope.

                            Again, that wasn't the comment. The comment was whether Simone knew Arabic or not NOT whether he knew all literary forms of it.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:32:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Volley, (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            unspeakable, hikerbiker

                            you could learn street Arabic in one year.

                            Literary Arabic is a lifetime endeavor, even for native speakers.  That Simone is able to read literature in Arabic is truly miraculous.  He and his community have fought very hard to keep that heritage alive.

                            We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

                            by soysauce on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:35:55 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And that is fine (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, hikerbiker

                            I respect that.

                            But that is different from your original statement. Now, I will have to ask my Israeli friends how hard it is to learn Arabic there. I have no doubt there are issues. Now, I am curious about the subject.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:41:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'll give you my example. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            soysauce

                            I didn't learn to read Arabic until I was 11 years old. And I didn't understand what I was reading until three years later. It took me, a native Arabic speaker, three years to learn the written language.

                            This isn't about "literary forms." This is the normal written prose that is used in books and newspapers and TV broadcasts and official documents. It is entirely different from the spoken language, and it must be learned by all Arabic speakers. Otherwise, you don't "know" Arabic.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 12:36:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  See and this is the crux of the problem (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker

                            Our cultures regarding this are different. You and I as Americans have similarities you and I as people on different sides of this conflict have differences.

                            We all read things written as different. We all have bias' that get brought to this discussion. You read soy and Simone and others one way - I read them completely different. I read hiker and others one way - you read them completely differently.

                            The issue is how do WE (both Pro-P and Pro-I) talk to each other without the ridiculousness that is happening now? Personally I have no idea, but, if we can't figure it out here - how can we expect others to figure it out.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 01:27:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The problem is not cultural. (0+ / 0-)

                            The issue is that you support an Israel where Jews continue to enjoy higher status than Palestinian Arabs.  I can talk to anyone on this issue that believes in the principle of equality.  I can not discuss this effectively with people that insist that Palestinians remain second class citizens on their own land.

                            We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

                            by soysauce on Mon May 10, 2010 at 01:48:10 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  yes we know.... (0+ / 0-)

                            Yes, you guys are so moral and circumspect. Meanwhile, my side is morally blind.

                            "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                            by JNEREBEL on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:07:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yep... (0+ / 0-)

                            sounds right to me.

                            while both 'sides' do some level of self-criticism one side does a much higher level than the other.

                            And this relates not only in terms of the states involved but also the participants here.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:12:25 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  aren't we both smart???!!!! n/t (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                            by JNEREBEL on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:14:26 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, (0+ / 0-)

                            you're just hypocritical. It's a-OK when your ally does it. When soy does, it deserves to be called out.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:31:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  pot meet kettle. n/t (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker

                            "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                            by JNEREBEL on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:40:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Falsehood, (0+ / 0-)

                            the last refuge of a scoundrel.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:42:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Eh, (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker

                            I take this back. I shouldn't stoop to that level.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:44:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  thank you. n/t (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker

                            "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                            by JNEREBEL on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:48:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  oh, but it was poetic, (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

                            almost tag-line worthy.

                            :)

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:30:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  so you'll be pointing me to your (0+ / 0-)

                            criticism of soy's comment.....where?

                            "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                            by JNEREBEL on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:48:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  As one of your allies (0+ / 0-)

                            likes to point out, I am not required to criticize everything I see. But I certainly have not uprated or affirmed anything along the lines that you have in hb and vb's comments.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:53:46 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  no you are not. (0+ / 0-)

                            But I am asking you now of your opinion on Soy's comment. Do you agree with her statement or not?

                            "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                            by JNEREBEL on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:00:39 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, (0+ / 0-)

                            here vb says that he supports some form of discrimination in Israel between Jews and non-Jews. What do you think of that?

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:07:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  one answer will deserve another.....n/t (0+ / 0-)

                            "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                            by JNEREBEL on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:09:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  {crickets} n/t (0+ / 0-)

                            "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                            by JNEREBEL on Thu May 13, 2010 at 11:24:48 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  oooooooooooooo (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

                            and vb and hb are such racists.  

                            and they smell, too.

                            But I certainly have not uprated or affirmed anything along the lines that you have in hb and vb's comments.

                            Come on...

                            If you keep on like this, I won't ever invite you to visit my sister in Jerusalem again.

                            :(

                            I'll gladly consider any direct critique of my ideas or comments, but I don't appreciate slanderous talk.

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:34:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yeah, (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            soysauce

                            I'm talking about the comments where you portrayed your side as so introspective and moral and my side as vindicative and unwilling to criticize Palestinian leaders. I never called you a racist, so don't put words in my mouth.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:37:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Here comes the "Good Arab" part again. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

                            Take a deep breath...

                            Please point me to comments made by anyone (on your side, as you like to say) other than yourself, critical of Palestinians or their leaders.  I would happily be proved wrong.

                            So you haven't explicitly called me a racist, but look at your comments and uprates in this thread.  And read Simone's characterization of me here, those comments that you seem to agree with and defend...

                            So far, your only near-legitimate complaint about me has been when you called me out on mentioning one of your (many, darling) strengths.  Well, I stupidly did so and will abide your wishes and will try not to repeat the mistake.

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:48:46 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And who here does this: (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, hikerbiker

                            I can not discuss this effectively with people that insist that Palestinians remain second class citizens on their own land.

                            I mean of the regular I.P people who claim to be Progressive Zionists. I don't know anyone who wants Palestinians to be second class citizens.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:17:35 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes your support of the highly theoretical... (3+ / 0-)

                            ......and never to materialize ideal two state solution is well known.  Nevertheless, you are hardly arguing that the current state of affairs is intolerable.  You admit that state security surpasses the needs and interests of the Palestinians.  

                            Moreover, you deny the apartheid analogy because you dislike the moral sting of it, even though it is becoming a near perfect point of comparison for what is happening to Israel, both behind the wall and outside of it.  

                            Let's not pretend that we're advocates of things we are not.  You are no more interested in equality for Palestinians than I am interested in supporting Jewish nationalism.  

                            Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                            by Alec82 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:24:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I hardly argue that the state of (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker

                            affairs currently is intolerable.. Really? You know for a lawyer I would think you could read. Apparently that is an issue. SO here... let me help you. Here are a list of my diaries - perhaps you could read them (I know it might be tough given this comment) and then please tell how I support the current situation.

                            Here is the list:

                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            Just to name a few. Now we can't all go (or want to go) to JVP lectures as our activism. Nor can we all write self-congratulatory diaries on our movement. Sorry... Oh and I want Jews to be safe... DARN THAT my bad - sorry (sarcasm 102 now)

                            As for this:

                            Moreover, you deny the apartheid analogy because you dislike the moral sting of it, even though it is becoming a near perfect point of comparison for what is happening to Israel, both behind the wall and outside of it.

                             

                            Near perfect eh? So Jews are 12% of the Population in Israel and the West Bank like White South Africans... HOLY CRAP - I better alert the Israeli Government that their figures are off.... Oh and Zionism is based on racial superiority.... HOLY CRAP you mean all this time I believed somehow I was born better than others.... Thank you, thank you for informing me of that.... OH and Palestinians and Arabs in Israel can't vote or have representatives in Knesset... HOLY BATMAN you better tell the guys in Balad, Hadash and others that they don't exist, they might be surprised. Oh and there are separate bathrooms and drinking fountains.... WOW.. I was not even aware. Oh yeah and who knew that the Afrikaners were hunted down and killed for over 2000 years like the Jews.... I thought they were a relatively new colonial movement. Man, you better write the people who do history books and fix them.

                            But point by point it's about the same. Just like it. </snark>

                            Let's not pretend that we're advocates of things we are not.  You are no more interested in equality for Palestinians than I am interested in supporting Jewish nationalism.

                            Well ok - you can admit you give a crap about Jews and our right to a homeland. But I actually do care about Palestinian rights - I just won't subordinate Jewish rights to them. Sorry.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:03:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It is nice to see... (3+ / 0-)

                            ...the facade fade every once in a while, Volley.  It makes you more human.  

                            After distilling your comment to eliminate the toxic insults, what I am left with is:

                            1. Jews must have a state to have self-determination.  We might wish to inform the various ethnic and religious groups that lack one that this is the case. Shall we begin with the Druze?

                             

                            1.  Demographics.  That would be the only key difference.  And it is an important one, but that doesn't eliminate the utility of apartheid South Africa as an analytical framework for understanding what is unfolding in "greater" Israel.
                            1. Your ethnocentrism is showing:

                            Oh yeah and who knew that the Afrikaners were hunted down and killed for over 2000 years like the Jews.... I thought they were a relatively new colonial movement.

                            And as we all know from Zionist discourse, recent constructs are not to be trusted, are they?  They lack the authenticity of other, older "peoples."  Perhaps this, more than anything, explains the desire to attack and destroy the work of Sand?

                            The term "concentration camp" originated as a result of the Afrikaner experience, Volley.  Perhaps you should read up a bit on their history.  But I guess their suffering doesn't count in your hierarchy of oppression.  

                            Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                            by Alec82 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:17:31 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh please ..... you are comparing (0+ / 0-)

                            the concentration camps (and yes I know where that term comes from) that the Boers were in to what happened in WWII? Really?

                            The facade? Not sure what you are referring to. That I care.... I do - I just have a line that I don't cross. If you don't want to be insulted don't spew bullshit about me. You can make your points in a nicer less in my face way. You give it - you get it back. You can't take it? Don't dish.

                            Tzand's work was b.s. sorry. But because he supports your view - it is authoritative? right?

                            Too funny.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:22:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The point is that the Boers were oppressed (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            unspeakable, soysauce

                            Did I compare their experience to the experience within the Nazi death camps? No, I did not.  They were, however, mistreated, abused by the British, who used indigenous groups against them.  And their desire to prevent that from happening again explains, in part, why they turned to the apartheid system, and why state security became such a pressing issue for that lone, white, educated, rich, European outpost surrounded by a sea of Africans. I believe just recently the head of AIPAC referred to Israel as an outpost.  

                            Sand's work is something I intend to revisit, side by side with Khalidi's "Palestinian Identity," which is the Palestinian counterpart to it.  Nationalism, however, is a modern construct; Zionism is no more ancient than were the primordial German dreams of the Volkists.  This should be a relatively straightforward point; that it instead has become a matter of pulling teeth is quite interesting, and makes the issue worthy of study, to my mind.  

                            In truth, we will never be able to have a meeting of minds on this issue, because your ideological commitments are simply too strong.  

                            Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                            by Alec82 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:31:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well I don't belong to AIPAC or donate (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker

                            to them so I have no idea what they said... frankly, nor do I care. But if you can show me that quote I would be interested in seeing it. Now, if J Street or APN said that as an official policy statement - not some guy talking.... then I would have to wonder.

                            This is the saddest thing you have said to me yet (insults included):

                            In truth, we will never be able to have a meeting of minds on this issue, because your ideological commitments are simply too strong.

                            maybe this is the truth - but do we give up? I will say one thing - you seem to think my ideology is one thing that it is not. But either way - that saddens me because I think on most other things we probably be in alignment.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:43:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  But what will you do to change that situation? (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, unspeakable, Alec82

                            By insisting that Israel remain the Jewish state, you support the discrimination against Palestinians in Israel.  I haven't even brought up your revulsion at the idea that refugees be allowed back to their homeland.

                            We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

                            by soysauce on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:25:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Really..... I do (0+ / 0-)

                            who known I support discrimmination.. I certainly didn't. I believe that I very clearly stated except for Hoq Ha'Shvut (The Jewish Law of Return) I believed everything else should be completely equal in rights as well as obligations. And I have often stated that while I believe in a Jewish National Homeland should the demographics of that State (in a two state scenario) change I think democracy should dictate terms not Jewish nationalism AT THAT POINT. Please get that straight.

                            Also, fine choice of the word "revulsion"... to bad it has as much commonality with reality as say the movie 10,000 BC...

                            I am not revolted by the Palestinian Right of Return. I just don't agree with it in terms of Pre-1967... It doesn't make my skin crawl, or my mouth dry out, I just disagree with it. Nothing more, nothing less.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 02:47:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  asdf (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, Alec82, soysauce

                            I believe that I very clearly stated except for Hoq Ha'Shvut (The Jewish Law of Return) I believed everything else should be completely equal in rights as well as obligations.

                            How is this not discrimination based on ethnic origin? You can argue that it's only this one issue, that it's important for Jewishness to be maintained, if you wish. But you can't deny that it's discrimination.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:03:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It is discrimminatory (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker

                            but not in the sense that Israel is/was created as a Jewish Homeland. Hoq Ha'shvut is key to our survival as a people. I am sorry you can't see that.

                            So.. in the end is it a right Jews would have that non-Jews would not - yes. Does it mean that I think Palestinians should be second class citizens? NOT IN THE SLIGHEST!!!! Is it unjust. NOPE - I would expect the same (and would not complain) from the Palestinian National Government. I actually would think this be a key right for them.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:26:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  OK, (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, soysauce, hikerbiker

                            but then don't deny that you oppose discrimination in all cases as you claimed.

                            You can't reconcile such a claim with your belief that there are certain instances in which discrimination is not only not unjust but also a key right.

                            Now, excuse me, I hear Fox has a job opening. I must apply.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:03:24 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Good luck with the interview (0+ / 0-)

                            It should pay well....

                            What I claimed was that I don't believe Palestinians should be Second Class citizens. Again you are mis-characterizing me.

                            In this case and given the history of Jewish people AND given the context for the creation of Israel I think Hoq Ha'Shvut is right and essential. I can sleep soundly at night believing that, writing it and saying it.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:08:59 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I didn't mischaracterize anything you said. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, soysauce

                            I simply disputed your claim that you don't support discrimination. I have not misquoted you, and I have not addressed whether or not your beliefs would result in second class citizenship. I only asked that you reconcile one of your claims with the other, which you have.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Mon May 10, 2010 at 04:12:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Question (0+ / 0-)

                            If we ever achieve a peaceful compromise with 2 states, one Palestine and one Israel, would you like to see unlimited immigration to Palestine by Israelis or Jews?  

                            What if circumstances were to change for Jews in the US and there were suddenly a mass immigration of American Jews to the new Palestinian state?

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Tue May 11, 2010 at 04:16:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I have no problem (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker

                            with the idea that, so long as they are law-abiding, Jews should have the same right to be citizens of a Palestinian state as Palestinians would. If a Jew wishes to live in Hebron or Nablus, why should a Palestinian state refuse her solely because of her ethnicity?

                            And I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it if they were fleeing from persecution.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Tue May 11, 2010 at 05:56:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, this is interesting and I think it should (0+ / 0-)

                            go both ways.

                            That's why I believe that there needs to be some sort of federation of states, one Palestinian and one Israeli, intertwined economically, culturally and even geographically, but with separate governments.  And people should be able to live wherever they wish, within the two federated states.

                            The balance of rights for minority populations within the two states will ensure that both sides are motivated to treat the other well.

                            Since both peoples have been abused and they have distinct needs as peoples, both peoples must have political sovereignty within their separate states.

                            Palestine would be guaranteed a majority of Palestinians through this arrangement.  They would never be a political minority again.

                            Israel would be guaranteed the same.

                            Immigrants would immigrate to either (political) Israel or (political) Palestine, depending upon their nationality.  But, in daily life, the two could be nearly indistinguishable.

                            I realize this might sound a little crazy, but know two things:

                            1.  This is not my profession and I really know almost nothing about state-building.  I'm just trying to think outside the box, because nothing in the box fits either.
                            1.  This isn't any more fantastical than the fictional secular and democratic one-state vision, which I see as completely unrealistic.

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Wed May 12, 2010 at 12:02:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  kids that finished schooling in public schools (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      unspeakable, soysauce

                      can't read and write Arabic properly. it is a deliberate effort to obliterate our culture. Israel's education system aims to de-educate Arabs.

                      But thankfully we have private pre-state schools.  There teachers make an effort to enforce our culture and language.

                      The rest are taught by the Mosque, which also teaches them about dignity.
                      They also teach kids that one day they will be carrying something heavier than books and that the racists will lose.

                      Previously I posted under the user name palestinian professor, which is now deprecated. I now post under my late grandfather's name simone daud.

                      by simone daud on Mon May 10, 2010 at 03:20:02 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  "carrying something heavier than books"? (0+ / 0-)

                        What does this mean?

                        Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                        by hikerbiker on Tue May 11, 2010 at 04:18:14 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  In Mosques in occupied Palestine (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          unspeakable, Alec82

                          they preach to the congregation that if racism does not fall of its own accord, if the Apartheid system does not devolve itself, if the colonialist and settlers insist on stealing peoples' lands.  If Palestinians continue to be treated like vermin in their own country, if the military occupation remains, then they preach at the Mosque that all have an obligation to be prepared for a time in one's adulthood to join the resistance movement in armed struggle against Apartheid and colonialism.  

                          This is what is preached at every mosque in occupied Palestine.  It is what is also preached at every Mosque in Israel, except perhaps the Mosque in Shafamru (A city close to Haifa) and one close to Jerusalem.  It is what is preached at every Mosque in every refugee camp around Palestine.

                          The Palestinian struggle has by now moved from the secular PLO to the mosque.   And it is becoming clear that Palestinians will likely be liberated from within the Mosque.  This situation has realized because the left had been utterly destroyed  during the course of the cold war.  The left has disappeared everywhere except in some large cities in Israel.

                          We are talking about Palestine here, not Finland. Islam has such a long continuous history there with a majority indigenous population that became Muslim over a thousand years ago. The situation is bad for Palestinians and has been bad for generations.  Of course, militant Islamic liberation theology will dominate.

                          Previously I posted under the user name palestinian professor, which is now deprecated. I now post under my late grandfather's name simone daud.

                          by simone daud on Wed May 12, 2010 at 02:31:10 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  And what do you think of this, simone? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Paul in Berkeley, canadian gal

                            Are you prepared

                            to join the resistance movement in armed struggle against Apartheid and colonialism.  

                            ?

                            And, unspeakable, you uprated this comment.  Is that a show of support for "armed struggle"?

                            I see an ironic parallel between this:

                            The situation is bad for Palestinians and has been bad for generations.  Of course, militant Islamic liberation theology will dominate.

                            and Jewish and Zionist history.

                            And so, the cycle goes on...

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Wed May 12, 2010 at 07:32:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  simone has repeatedly (5+ / 0-)

                            explained that he is a secular leftist.

                            What he is doing is describing the state of affairs that we are now in. Palestinians are showing remarkable restraint right now. In the face of continued land theft, Jewish terrorism from the settlers, deportation, and the starvation of Gaza — all of them acts of war against a beleaguered people — they have put down their weapons and are pursuing their rights through nonviolent means. It should come as no surprise that eventually, should the rights of the downtrodden continue to be denied and trampled upon, that some will turn to violence.

                            Is this not what tragically happened in the civil rights movement, when some turned to violence to have their rights recognized? And the indigenous anti-apartheid movement of South Africa? And in El Salvador?

                            Is that a show of support for "armed struggle"?

                            If you wish to deliberately misinterpret what simone is saying and in addition apply that misinterpretation to me, I am not going to stand in your way.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Wed May 12, 2010 at 08:15:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  During the.. (3+ / 0-)

                            ...apartheid struggle, many of the churches refused to disavow violence against the state security apparartus.  The struggle against apartheid was very violent.  There were daily reports of shootings, bombings...it was a nasty affair, by all accounts.

                            Are we prepared to state that armed struggle against the armed IDF, Shin Bet and the armed settler militias is off limits for the Palestinians? Are they just supposed to lie down and die?

                            I truly wonder, given the reaction to the Berkeley divestment bill, just what it is liberal Zionists propose to do.  Or what they want others to do. Talk while land is being stolen and the basis for a Palestinian state is undermined?

                            What do you propose, Hiker? What do you propose that will be effective?

                            Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                            by Alec82 on Wed May 12, 2010 at 08:31:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It's a big problem. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Alec82

                            Violence will only provoke more violence...And the cycle will go on and on and on...

                            I really believe that most of what motivates Israeli policies is fear-based and anything that promotes more fear (like BDS or rocket fire) will encourage the growth of the Right Wing in the Israeli government and among citizens.  And this is likely to make peace more elusive.

                            Looking from an Israeli perspective, I think most people there perceive boycotts as just another manifestation of the hatred which they experience and perceive from most countries.  It only reinforces the justified and unjustified paranoia, that ultimately, Israel and Jews are alone in the world and must fend for themselves. (After all, the country was founded on this idea.)  As a result, the Right Wing will continue to gain more support and power.

                            My best hope, right now, is that Obama and Clinton will be able to somehow bring everyone together with constructive, mutually beneficial aims.  

                            Both sides must benefit from any peace deal, and both sides need guarantees of safety.

                            I described my version of the la-la-land vision of peace in a comment today to unspeakable.  I would like to see a two state solution, with a federation of states.  Each state would exist more as a political than geographic entity, with free movement of all people, economic and cultural cooperation and political guarantees for both sides.  Palestinians would forever hold majority status in their little state, and visa-versa for the Israelis.  Each would have a right of return to their own state.  Palestinians and Israelis would have full civil rights in each state, as minorities in one and a majority in the other.

                            If this seems preposterous, just think about how outlandish the one-state fantasy is...It could only come about if Israel were reduced to nothing by war and terror.  With their last ounce of power, any Israeli government would fight to preserve independence for Israel.  The idea of Israelis living one day as a minority population in their state is completely counter to the mission of the country and will always be unacceptable.

                            My eyes are closing.  Goodnight.  I hope something here makes sense.  There are no easy answers and I am certainly no expert at negotiations for peace.

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Wed May 12, 2010 at 09:09:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hiker.. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            unspeakable

                            Thank you for the thoughtful reply.  

                            We are just going to have to disagree with the road forward.  I think that targeted divestment and boycotts are the way to go and, hopefully, the Israelis will be able to reasonably evaluate the differences between a targeted campaign against American support for the Occupation and an anti-Jewish boycott.

                            If the end result is a single state, I do not think it will be through war and terror.  The Afrikaner's had the same fears; they faded, with time.  And their situation was even more precarious than Jews in Israel.  

                            Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                            by Alec82 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 06:53:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I appreciate your respectful tone (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            canadian gal

                            It's a rare treasure around here lately.

                            I'm tired of having the worst attributed to me, of being constantly misinterpreted here.

                            I wish the Palestinians and their many supporters good luck -- and if they continue to alienate those who wish to find mutual understanding and make peace, they will need a lot of it.  

                            See you around.

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Thu May 13, 2010 at 10:10:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  a nasty affair.... (0+ / 0-)

                            what do you expect hiker? seriously!

                            Are we prepared to state that armed struggle against the armed IDF, Shin Bet and the armed settler militias is off limits for the Palestinians? Are they just supposed to lie down and die?

                            its no surprise when the israelis palestinians turn to violence. unless of course, progressive zionist either support BDS or solve the problems themselves.

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Wed May 12, 2010 at 09:02:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'd like to rec your support, but (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            canadian gal

                            I don't understand your last two lines.

                            Please clarify.

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Wed May 12, 2010 at 09:40:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  they are paraphrased... (0+ / 0-)

                            (and sadly typo-riddled) false equivalencies espoused elsewhere.

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Wed May 12, 2010 at 09:52:17 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Self-defense... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            unspeakable

                            ...is controversial?

                            Did I support suicide bombings of civilian targets or something along those lines? You might have an argument for feigned surprise if I had.  

                            Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                            by Alec82 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 06:53:02 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  no. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker

                            its not controversial. moral selectivity is though.

                            so i imagine, using the arguments presented here that the next time the israelis use self-defense to prevent a terrorist attack, or for some other 'security' concern, you won't find it or defense of it controversial either?

                            despite the fact that both sides have legitimate grievances with the other, either the ends justify the means or they don't. and as long as non-violent recourse exists, the end can be deemed only as good by virtue of the means used to achieve it.

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Thu May 13, 2010 at 12:53:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  For the record.. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            unspeakable

                            ....I've always preferred Mills and Bentham to Kant.

                            so i imagine, using the arguments presented here that the next time the israelis use self-defense to prevent a terrorist attack, or for some other 'security' concern, you won't find it or defense of it controversial either?

                            Well that depends.  If you had been reading my posts here closely, you would find that I don't believe the security barrier is entirely pretextual; in principle, such a barrier could plausibly be used as a deterrent against "terrorist" attacks (note that I find "terrorism" to be largely a political construct used to conflate illegitimate and legitimate political violence).  In practice, the "security barrier" is simply an instrument of Israeli land theft, moving (as it must) to shelter colonists as they gobble up the resources of the West Bank.  

                            In any event, I am not sure what other "self-defense" measures you have in mind; there are so many of them (preemptive war, political killings, etcetera) that I can't divine your intent with the above post.  

                            despite the fact that both sides have legitimate grievances with the other

                            Best resolved through international tribunals, applying international law.  

                            either the ends justify the means or they don't

                            In a military conflict, there are legitimate military targets.  We accepted the armed struggle used against the apartheid government in the 1980s and early 1990s, and the TRC has been used to achieve "peace" in the aftermath.

                            Apologists for murder, colonization and ethnic cleansing will undoubtedly be unhappy to find their sacred cows called into question, but my view is considerably less radical than you might believe.

                            Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                            by Alec82 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 01:07:46 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  I know you worked with Palestinian refugees in (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JNEREBEL

                    the camps in Lebanon.

                    Slightly off-topic, but I have wondered why, after all these years, are they still living in refugee camps?  

                    What a horrible way to live.  Why haven't the Lebanese absorbed them into their society?

                    Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                    by hikerbiker on Mon May 10, 2010 at 06:11:51 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  good question. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                      "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                      by JNEREBEL on Tue May 11, 2010 at 09:17:00 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Ask the god-damned racists of Lebanon. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      unspeakable, hikerbiker

                      They are no different than the ruling class in Israel that see Palestinians as a demographic threat the Christian "majority."

                      We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

                      by soysauce on Tue May 11, 2010 at 10:51:59 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  *Gasp!* (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        soysauce, hikerbiker

                        Aren't you Palestinian? And you're criticizing other Arabs?!!

                        Only I do that. You're stealing my niche! I'm suing you for copyright infringment — or failing that, something else!

                        Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                        by unspeakable on Tue May 11, 2010 at 11:37:06 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I'm tired of being the bad Arab, perhaps. (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          unspeakable, hikerbiker

                          Why do only you get the love?

                          We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

                          by soysauce on Tue May 11, 2010 at 11:38:28 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Hallelujah! (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

                          In Judaism we have a special and beautiful prayer, the Shehehianu, which is recited when seeing or experiencing something for the first time, like a rainbow, or living to see or experience something wonderful again, like a joyous occasion.

                          I should say a Shehehianu here.  This is honestly the first time I remember seeing soy type a critical word about anyone but Israel and Zionists.

                          I asked for you to show me what I've missed, if it's true that I've just not seen all the criticisms of non-Israelis, but so far I've seen nothing.  Please point me in the right direction if this isn't a uniquely critical comment.

                          Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                          by hikerbiker on Tue May 11, 2010 at 04:24:52 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  really, hiker. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            unspeakable

                            It's not the first time.  I'm not going to dig through my comment history to prove you wrong, but know that you are wrong.

                            Do you know how many demos I attended in Lebanon marching for refugee and domestic worker rights?  Didn't I just go to Egypt and risk my life protesting the policies of the Egyptian regime? If you had a shred of decency, you would apologize for your assumptions.

                            We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

                            by soysauce on Tue May 11, 2010 at 04:29:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So you suspect that (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

                            I don't have a "shred of decency"?

                            I haven't claimed that I know for certain that you have never, ever made a comment critical of Arabs.  This is what I wrote and believe:

                            This is honestly the first time I remember seeing soy type a critical word about anyone but Israel and Zionists.

                            Even when I sent my peace flag to Code Pink, I was only thinking in terms of promoting peace between Palestinian Gazans and Israel;  my support of you and your mission was in relation to Israel, not Egypt.  It really never occurred to me that you were primarily or also protesting the policies of the Egyptian regime, as you write now.

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Tue May 11, 2010 at 05:10:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Palestinians have been mistreated everywhere. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

                        That's why I believe they need to have their own state.

                        Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                        by hikerbiker on Tue May 11, 2010 at 04:25:54 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

    •  9/11 conspiracy theories ... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sofia, fizziks, alizarin, hikerbiker

      ... are prohibited. Nazi-Israel comparisons are forbidden. You've been previously warned about your discourse here. and you've been previously suspended. This is your final warning, Jane.

      I refuse to accept "no can do" as a proper slogan for progressives.

      by Meteor Blades on Sat May 08, 2010 at 08:17:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you for your courage (9+ / 0-)

    and for your continued commitment to the palestinian cause.

  •  Some points of history. (5+ / 1-)

    Palestinians owned the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem and Old Jerusalem before the Israelis arrived

    First, there never was a country/ political entity named Palestine. Second, the latest ownership, or more accurately, mandate over the geographical area called Palestine was held by the British until 1947 when the United Nations Security Council voted to partition the mandate into Jewish and Arab states.

    The Jews accepted the partition plan, the Arabs did not. If they had, then and only then, would  Palestinians have owned some of the areas you cite.

  •  :) (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ubertar, Plubius, Borat Sagdiyev

    As a Muslim, my deed to the Promised Land is newer than the Israeli wingnuts' deed. My deed was written later. And any real estate broker will tell you that a newer deed always holds precedence. And that means that my deed to all this section of the Promised Land trumps theirs. Get over it.

    Sounds like someone has a newer deed than yours :)  Good luck on your boat.  Say hi to those kooks Cynthia McKinney and George Galloway for me.

  •  Not to mention the diarist is a 9/11 Truther. (7+ / 0-)

    Just because some idiot Saudis may or may not have blown up the World Trade Center, I'm supposed to hate all Muslims? That doesn't make sense.

    Funny how all the conspiracy theorist kooks tend to fall in the Israel-hating bandwagon.

  •  Thanks for sticking your neck out. (8+ / 0-)

    Why do it? Why subject yourself to their vitriol?

    To me, pissing off the apologists for evil is its own reward. Take pleasure in their vitriolic reactions. Remember, if they become the popular image of the pro-Israel position, then they turn off the American public to their cause.

    If they send you death threats, I would publish the death threats. Reveal their evil for all to see. They try to provoke you, and use your reaction to make your position appear unpalatable. They try to silence you. If you publish their death threats, and publicize their attempts to silence you, you make their position appear unpalatable.

    You cannot depend upon American institutions to function without pressure. --MLK Jr.

    by Opakapaka on Sat May 08, 2010 at 11:13:04 AM PDT

    •  trading death threats from the crazies (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      holyted

      on either side will do nothing to advance Palestinian or Isreali positions - it'll turn into a 'pox on both their houses'. There's enough evil coming from both sides, let's not increase it.

      •  No, I definitely think (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JDsg, Terra Mystica, edtastic, Alec82

        trading death threats does nothing but discourage discussion, discourage the revelation of truth. But I don't think one should let these attacks silence them. For this is the goal of the threats--to silence criticism and to allow the occupation/colonization to continue. I think one should maintain their composure and let their arguments define them. The the facts define their position. Let the threats and dirty tactics define the apologists for occupation and settlements.

        You cannot depend upon American institutions to function without pressure. --MLK Jr.

        by Opakapaka on Sat May 08, 2010 at 11:32:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Good to know your dedicated to the cause (0+ / 0-)

      'Cause it ain;t about making things better.

      Its all about " pissing off the apologists for evil "

    •  opakapaka (0+ / 0-)

      You should go back and read Meteor Blades' comments in this thread.

      In your lauding of the diarist, you seem to have missed a few blatantly bannable offenses embedded in the diary.

      Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

      by hikerbiker on Sun May 09, 2010 at 12:07:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  precisely (0+ / 0-)

      Remember, if they become the popular image of the pro-Israel position, then they turn off the American public to their cause.

      Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

      by Eiron on Sun May 09, 2010 at 03:28:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Nah I just filed police reports (0+ / 0-)

      What can you do?  Called from a blocked number at 3 am?  

  •  This diary is terrible (4+ / 0-)

    It is filled with almost every demonstrably false and idiotic sentiment one could wish from a parody of that position.   Yet it seems the diarist is all too for real.

  •  I changed "Nazi" to "Axis" (0+ / 0-)

    After receiving a warning about the use of the world "Nazi" from the DK moderator, I realized that he might be right in that "Nazi" is too much of a button-pusher and that it's use takes away from the more important points in my diary -- that we must be ever-vigilant in times of crisis so that we don't make the mistakes of the past, take the easy way out and throw democracy and justice to the wolves in the face of hard times.

    •  Well, that utterly fails to improve it (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sofia, fizziks, unspeakable, hikerbiker

      I mean, it remains clear to everyone reading that you mean Nazi, but are simply trying to find a loophole in the rules.

      Whatever.  You're not long for here, and you aren't winning anyone over, and I don't really care.  But honestly, thinking that you've somehow improved things by using "Axis" is simply asinine.

      The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

      by Jay Elias on Sun May 09, 2010 at 10:33:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  And what about the future? (0+ / 0-)

    So. What will happen next in Gaza? Or in Afghanistan or Darfur for that matter.  Or even Saudi Arabia or Columbia or Arizona?  After all its work -- religious or otherwise -- to try to better itself, is the human race just gonna kiss off all the stuff it has learned about acting "civilized" and just keep on with the killing?  

       As things get tougher, will we just keep on turning right?  Will the wingnuts keep getting more and more power until everyone reverts to either nuclear weapons, napalm or stones and clubs?

       I am hoping that perhaps the siege of Gaza will be lifted voluntarily by Netanyahu, that there will be peace in Darfur and Helmand, that the daily occurrence of violence in Baghdad and Juarez will suddenly go away and that I will have NOTHING else to bitch about!

        Hey, I can hope, can't I?

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