In January 1994, 2 months after Washington passed the nation's first 3-Strikes law, Larry Fisher robbed a Subway shop of $151. He used no weapon or physical force. Not knowing about the new law, he'd just struck out - with three no-injury, no-weapon robberies. He's now serving a sentence of 777 years, 77 months, and 77 days With No Possibility of Release.
Defendants with all lower-seriousness crimes no longer get 3-Strikes sentences. Snohomish County Public defenders are representing Larry pro bono in a clemency petition -- and seeking donations to defray expenses.
In Washington, 1 out of 30 adults is behind bars or under community supervision at any one time. (1) 3-Strikes expresses a dysfunction of democracy that brings us climate change and the Gulf catastrophe. It's urgent we address these socially destabilizing laws.
CLEMENCY DONATIONS
Email me at noemie_maxwell (at) yahoo and I'll send a form to donate to Snohomish County Public Defender Association for Larry's clemency petition.
Photo: Larry Fisher at McNeil Island Correctional Center. CLICK PHOTO TO VIEW FILM. Transcript below.
Click HERE to view the video of the interview with Larry.
INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Noemie Maxwell So do you want to tell me the story of how you got here? Do you think that might be a good place to start?
Larry Fisher How I got to this institution?
NM Yeah, how you got to this place in life...
LF I've felt I've always had like some mental problems, you know, I've always suffered a lot of paranoia and anxiety feelings like that and when I was out I used to cope with those with a lot of drinking and drugs. And I don't think I ever realized until I came to prison and started taking medication and then I came here in 2002 to McNeil Island and started, you know, getting on some medications and this is the best I've ever felt, you know, since my early teen years.
NM So when were you actually incarcerated under 3-Strikes?
LF January of '94.
NM So you went from 1994 to 2002 before you were diagnosed and went on medication?
LF Right. I was at Walla Walla and Clallam Bay
NM Do you remember a time when you were a child, you know, moving into teen years where life kind of felt like it changed for you?
LF Well, I did. I believe like in my early teens, you know, I always had an outspoken therapy of ... something was wrong. And I always tried to avoid people, you know I don't like crowded places -- I have a hard time, like down in my job, our chow hall down there cause they have like picnic tables with 90 people in there and you sit like this (scrunches up shoulders) it's difficult for me to be in there around that many people at one time.
NM Even here at McNeil
LF Yeah. I spend a lot of time in my house, you know, doing my own kind of thing, you know, in my cell cause I don't interact with too many people.
NM I'm enjoying interacting with you.
LF Well, I'm enjoying this part! I do things. I read a lot. We have a program in the unit here where we make hats, we knit hats for homeless people, stuff like that, you know I enjoy doing that -- I've made probably 4 or 500 hats.
NM So you knit!
LF Yeah I do it on looms -- yeah, it passes the time.
Bobbi Dreier Speaks on Behalf of Washington 3-Striker Larry Fisher from FIX 3 STRIKES on Vimeo.
NM So you have three Robbery 2s.
LF Right, 3 Robbery 2s
NM Do you want to talk about that?
LF Well, I believe in the concept of the 3-Strikes because I can understand the public's outcry on crime. But my only justification is -- the time should fit the crime -- or the crime should fit the time, either aspect. Because 15 years is a long time on one Robbery 2. And on my first and second robberies I didn't take the trial because no one told me on my third one I could get life without on my third one.
NM You went in 1994, so your first two Robbery 2s were probably before the law was passed.
LF Right.
NM Did you know when you were going in for your third trial, did you know at the beginning that this was a life...
LF Well, no I got arrested in Snohomish County. They took me into court and charged me with first degree armed robbery. And then a couple of days later they took me back to court, dropped it from first degree armed robbery down to second degree because there was no weapon. And then they said they were filing in addition under 593, which is the 3-Strikes. Then they never offered no plea bargain, no nothing. They just basically said we're going to strike you out.
Like I said I understand the concept -- with people being concerned with their families and their safety out there in the public. I mean I'd want the same for my family. But my first and second crimes...
My first one I robbed a pizza establishment, a Little Ceasar's Pizza. I came to prison, did my little bit of time on that. Oh, no, that was my second robbery, the pizza house. The first one -- it sounds bad to the public but it was an altercation with a family member, my grandfather where he'd been real abusive to me most of my life anyway and it was dead of winter time, cold out. All I wanted was a couple of bucks so I could go to Denny's you know.
NM Go to where?
LF Dennys restaurant, buy a newspaper or something, sit and drink coffee, you know. Get through the cold night. You know, and I just snapped, I ended up taking his wallet and that was my first robbery.
NM You pushed him down or something like that, I think I remember?
LF Yeah.
NM Was he your main, um... uh
LF Father figure
NM He was the person who brought you up, basically?
LF Basically, yeah. It was my mom ... we lived on a small street and they lived right across the street, my grandparents did, so it was basically one family but two houses, you know.
NM Was your dad there?
LF No my dad and mom split up when I was about 2 or 3 years old. I got one younger sister. And then my dad and my step mom, who comes and sees me now ... and they lived up there for about 20 some odd years.
NM Ok, so it was you and your mom and then across the street your grandparents. What did your grandfather do to you?
LF Well, there were times like ... I couldn't be... he was the type guy, he believed everybody should lock their doors at 5 O'clock, turn down the blinds, and go to bed at 5:00 in the afternoon. I mean, he drank constantly ... I'm a kid. I want to play Little League baseball. And all I'm saying is, I want to go down to the ballpark in Mukilteo and play baseball. I told him, I'm leaving one day -- I'm going to go play. And he pulls a gun on me.
NM Your grandfather pulled a gun on you? How old were you?
LF About 12 years old. And told me if I got out, I was sitting on a little corner of the couch, told me if I moved he'd shoot me, ya know. And this is the kind of abuse that I grew up with. He hated the person that my father was, you know, and always made remarks, you're just like your father, you know ...
NM How did that feel to have a gun pulled on you when you were 12? Were you terrified? Were you..
LF Well, yeah, I was terrified. It just kind of left a bad... I think about it to this day, you know. If he had probably pulled that trigger then, I don't know ...
NM Was it loaded?
LF Oh, yeah. Yeah.
NM So there was a gun in the house that he just kind of kept lying around and he could just grab it...
LF Well he didn't leave it... it was always laying like -- the door sill was here, going out the door and the couch right here it was always leaning up against the door sill right there
NM
Loaded
LF Loaded, yeah.
...
NM Did you go to school? Did you go to public school?
LF Yeah. I went to public school. Then I started getting into trouble with the law when I was 12, 13 years old then and I went to Cascadia down there by Fife. It's a juvenile diagnostic center. It's kind of like Shelton, but built for juveniles. They have different camps they send you out to, group homes and stuff like that. I went to Indian Ridge up by Arlington. And then I stayed there probably about a year. I got out for a short time. I remember I went back to my mom's and I wasn't there very long, I got in a little bit more trouble and I went to a boy's home in Eurphrata, Sunrise Group Home in Euphrata.
NM How were those experiences?
LF Well, they were good because I found the things I never had at home. I found I could do at these places. You know I've always been a big sports person and I enjoy playing football and baseball and stuff like that and I could do the things I wanted to do without having to worry about any repercussions for doing them. And I had limited freedom. We went to public schools over there in those group homes. We had things like pool tables, ping-pong tables in the house.
NM So there were things to occupy your time.
LF Yeah, right.
.....
NM That's chilling, that your grandfather pulled a gun on you.
LF Well, it is. See people that hear about it, especially in a prison atmosphere... It sounds bad -- you rob an old man and push him down. There's no justification what I did, sure he was an old man. But all the years of abuse that I went through from him and I didn't feel I was asking much for a few dollars to keep warm on a cold night.
NM What else did he do to you, your grandfather besides keep you so close that...
LF It was like verbal things, you know, always mocking my father. And we'd want to be like other kids, go out and play and stuff like that and, well no, it's time to go to bed, you know, go in the house at 5:00 and lock the doors and close the curtains.
NM So that was an unusual thing that he pulled a gun on you, he didn't do that frequently.
LF Not frequently but...
NM That was a defining moment.
LF Defining moment? Yeah! Yeah.
NM How old were you when you went to Indian Ridge?
LF 13, I believe.
NM 13, that's really young. Did you miss home? Or were you just so much happier there?
LF No, I liked it better. I went out and I worked in the woods one day and then I went to school the next day at the camp...
NM You worked in the woods, like maintaining trails?
LF Well, that and we cut down little trees, you know, thinned trees and planted trees, things like that. It was all right.
NM I want to ask you about the robberies. Were there drugs involved?
LF Yes, there were drugs. Because I was always.. like I say, most of my life -- people say it's hereditary too, if your family, both my grandparents where I was raised were alcoholics, you know. And when I was young, alcohol was easily accessible, you know. There was nothing to getting into the fridge and taking a couple 2-3 beers out and go behind the garage and drink them you know, because it was always accessible.
NM And you didn't get punished for that? Your grandfather didn't keep track of the beers?
LF No, he just didn't keep track. And the older I got ... and even in the boys homes in Eurphrata and Wenatchee, it seemed like they justified what we did, they let us go out and drink.
NM They let you go out and drink?
LF And smoke weed and stuff like that. And we came back and they would just, you know, nothing, you know: "Go to your room."
NM Did they give you the alcohol and pot?
LF No, no they didn't provide it, but it was easy being a teenager -- stand out in front of the store and have some guy go in and buy you a case of beer or something.
NM So it was marijuana -- was it heroin ... was it...
LF Well, it started out marijuana and just drinking and a lot of the time when I was 18, 19 I started doing heroin. And that was always since then my drug of choice, the heroin.
NM I ask because I've noticed from the people I've talked with that this particular kind of crime where you're robbing a store or your robbing a person, has become associated for me with drug use.
LF Well, I can honestly say, sitting here today if I didn't have the mental issues I have and the drug abuse, I wouldn't have robbed anything. I don't believe I'd be sitting here today saying I robbed any place. Because I need to support that habit was my only reason for doing that.
NM Did you ever try to quit?
LF Oh, yeah, it was hard to quit. I've been to a couple of drug rehab places. I was in Cedar Hills down in Maple Valley. And I got on Methadone I think it was back in like 83 or 84. And I took Methadone for a year and I seemed to be doing pretty good but then things started going bad again you know and so I went right back to using.
NM Looking back on it, do you see any point -- I'm thinking in terms of public policy -- how do we set things up so we're treating people in ways that work so we're not putting people in prison for life, treatment is way cheaper plus it's much better. So do you see any points in there that would have helped you?
LF Well, I think if I would have had something like the program I'm in now as a juvenile -- like this Therapeutic Community that's part of the mental health program here. We live on concepts and values of relationships -- not using drugs or alcohol and living a good life, you know you live on principles of recovery is what I guess I'm trying to say.
NM Principles of recovery?
LF Yeah, you go by principles of recovery and live by those rules and be on medications that can help you stay away from drugs when a person does get out. I think even now a lot of the guys who are in the program with me, some of the guys who have gotten out in the last 6 or 8 months are doing good from being in this program. You know they write some guys back, you know who are living in the unit and say that they're living out there and doing good.
NM Right! Are you connecting, then, the mental illness with the drug use? Are you saying that when you treat the mental illness that the drug abuse is then easier to treat?
LF Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. Because I believe that wholly, that if you treat the mental illness, and you get on -- like me, I take (name of drug). And I figure if I were to have taken it back when I was 18, 19 years old, I don't believe that I would have kept using drugs or living the lifestyle that I chose to live.
NM What does the medication actually do? What is the effect on you?
LF It curbs anxiety and paranoia.... They changed my medications a couple of times and finally got me on this one. And you know they say, I see these commercials on TV they say it's not good for you, because it causes diabetes and whatever, but I never want to get off of it as long as it's doing me some good.
NM So you rather put up with whatever physical risks or illness might be associated with it and not have that paranoia and anxiety... There's a phrase, self-medication. It sounds like you're describing the heroin as self medication
LF Yeah.
NM So heroin takes away that anxiety, also.
LF Right.
NM Can you tell me the name of the program you're in?
LF Therapeutic Community.
NM Oh, that's the name of the program. And it's something within the prison system... and so, community, is that referring to other inmates here?
LF Well, they have a program here. I believe they've got one at Airway Heights. And they're supposed to be starting, I believe, for people who are 18 months or shorter, that they're going to send you to Airway Heights and eventually they'll all have to go through this program for 18 months before they re-enter, you know it's for drug abusers and things like that.
Cause, as I say it's (the Therapeutic Community program) got a lot of components and concepts -- principles of recovery. You have cardinal rules. It teaches you a better way to live, you know, and puts structure in your life. I guess that's the word I was looking for earlier, structure. Because if you have some structure in your life you don't have to think of all the negatives you've been through. I put all the past behind me. And that's what I've been doing lately.
This has been a really good year for me. My step mom, who comes up and sees me once in awhile. She, uh, My real mom died a couple of years ago. My dad died in '86. She asked if she could adopt me. I said, I don't know if you can adopt somebody, but she sent me in the papers and they notarized them here and she took them about a week ago and had them put in the public record or something.
NM So you got adopted!? I didn't know an adult could get adopted!
LF I didn't know that either. But she did, I guess.
NM How did that feel to you?
LF Well, it's nice. And then she's saying if I get out you know I have a place to go live at her place, you know.
NM Is that in Alaska?
LF No that's here in Everett.
NM You were talking about recovery concepts, can you tell me what those are, give me some examples
LF Recovery concepts are like taking something negative and turning it into a positive. It's like looking at all angles of things and no matter how bad it seems to get, you can always find something positive and keep striving forward. ...
NM It sounds like DOC (Washington State Department of Corrections) is doing pretty well at addressing some of these underlying reasons that people commit crimes. Mental illness and drug addiction are the two I hear most often.
LF Well, it's the overcrowding. And I believe that the overcrowding is because of drug usage. I haven't been out in 15 years. But I watch the news every day. What I see repeatedly on the news is all this meth -- it's meth this and meth that. These people are destroying themselves. I talk about myself having paranoia because I take Ziprexa. I'd hate to see myself on that drug! That drug would totally destroy me.
NM It's toxic.
LF That's what I'm saying, it would probably destroy me. But there's no room in the prison system, that's why we've got people in Arizona and Minnesota and wherever else we do, you know? Because there's no room here.
NM I heard a presentation the day before yesterday by a member of the House Human Services and Public Safety who was talking about how important it is in trying to reduce crime to address mental health and drug abuse and issues revolving around protecting children. Investing in those programs is a lot cheaper than incarcerating people. But the timeline is much longer and politicians work on shorter timelines. So you save money doing that, not even to mention the human cost. And not even thinking about the people who are in prison, but the victims. Long term thinking is hard for politicians as well as for anyone.
LF It is. And I know they have a hard job to do. Politicians have a real hard job to do in trying to ease the public's sense of safety out there. But it's hard when people watch the news and see the same things we see.
NM When you did the robberies, did you feel bad about it? Were you so out of it because of the heroin that you didn't feel the reality of it?
LF I've always felt remorseful about my robberies... On my second robbery, where I robbed the pizza house I left with this lady friend of mine. She was actually just a drug pal, was what she was. And we took off from here and went to Reno Nevada. And I'm staying down there about 5, 6 months and then we came back to Washington and I had no where to go, nothing to do. And so I went and turned myself in on my second robbery for the pizza house.
NM You turned yourself in because of the remorse? Or because you had nowhere to live?
LF For both. You know? For the remorse. And I just wanted to clear it up and stuff. So I went in and sure enough they had a composite drawing.
NM How long did you serve for the first two?
LF Well, see this is a funny thing. My first robbery, with my grandfather, I spent four months in prison. Four months in county jail. The second time, for the pizza house robbery, I did 17 months. I was in the county. I went to Shelton for 2 months. I went to camp over at Little Rock by Olympia. Then I went to Tacoma pre-release, then I went to Bellingham work release. And that was it. I never actually spent a day in prison until I got my third strike.
NM I've heard that from others, too. The sentencing range for Robbery 2 has changed over the years. But right now the minimum is 3 months and the maximum is 3 years. So Robbery 2 there's a seriousness scale under state law for crimes. Level 16 is Aggravated Murder 1. That's life in prison or the death penalty. And Level 1 I forget what it is, gambling or something. But Robbery 2 and Assault 2 these are the most common triggers for life under 3-Strikes and they're at level 4. So they're in the bottom quarter of seriousness.
LF That's amazing. I've always felt... People feel threatened when you come in to physically take money from them. But, without physically harming anyone, I've never seen why the public finds that so outrageous to impose a life sentence for it.
NM Personally, I don't think the public would have voted for that... What do you think of that phrase, chronic street thug? Do you see yourself as a chronic street thug?
(Note: In a 1997 analysis on 3-Strikes, R. David LaCourse of Washington Institute for Policy Studies, who helped author the 3-Strikes proposal, acknowledged that most people had voted for 3-Strikes to stop "the monstrous predator". But that a "different category" of criminal had also been targeted: "the chronic street thug...")
LF Well, I agree with that. Yeah, I do. Wholeheartedly. We portray ourselves as being thugs you know because we do dishonest things to obtain money to buy drugs and to the public you are a thug and they have all the right to say you are. But to lock up someone for life for being a low-level, ah, criminal, doesn't make any sense either.
...
NM I would say there would be a pretty small percentage of people who would think that 3 Robbery 2s deserves Life. There are people who do. Or maybe they wouldn't design the law that way themselves but they're saying, well good riddance -- I'm not going to spend my time on fixing that. Why do you think Washington should spend the time on fixing it, or do you? Do you think we should put the political capital into reforming the law.
LF I think they need to not reform the law so much as to reform the people while they're doing time.
NM So if you were able to make things the way you thought was correct, just wave a wand and the law would be the way you wanted it to be, would you remove these crimes from the list of 3-Strikes offenses?
LF I'd look at it individually. I would look at each case individually cause everybody's different. I think that the courts instead of giving all the power to the judges ...
NM You mean to the prosecutor?
LF Right, to the prosecutor -- enabling them to strike them out I think they should be able to go look back in your file and study you as a person, you know. And if you were in prison before -- like I told you earlier, I never spent a day in prison before I came on this 3-Strikes bill -- look back in your prison history and see what classes and courses you've taken, you know. Like, when I was at Walla Walla I had a GED but I got my high school diploma I went to school for a year and I earned my high school diploma. I went through a year-long chemical dependency class, Lakeside Chemical Dependency, I went through anger stress management, 18 months of Choices classes -- you know I took all these on my own to better myself. I think the public needs to be aware that if people are willing to help themselves while they're in prison they should be given a second chance. Instead of a guy who comes to prison, he's got 18 months to do, he does nothing but lay on his bunk all day, get up and go eat and doesn't do a thing to better himself and then when he gets back on the street with $40 gate money, first thing he does is head to the drug house to get himself, you know.
...
NM You're talking about the help that you got (in prison). And you've been working in the same job for, what is it, 3 years? And you enjoy the job. It almost sounds as if you're doing ok. Is it ok for you to be in prison for life? Does this cause you suffering?
LF Well, I find, every body gets depressed. We all go through our ups and downs. And a lot of times I lose hope and I feel I'm just so tired of doing this time. I don't want to get out of bed today, I don't feel like going to work. You know it's another day, it's just going to be the same old hum drum stuff. But then other ways I'm content. I've been here, my life is pretty structured. I get three meals a day. I don't got to worry about paying no rent.
People get institutionalized, you know. You don't have to worry. If you get sick you know there's medical people. Your medications are paid for. But still, to weigh it on both sides, I'd still rather be free, though. Because knowing what I know today, and as we were talking earlier about my drug addictions, I don't feel that I would go back to using any drugs in the future.
NM What would you like to do? If you're released. Do you dream about that?
LF Yeah, I do dream about that. I would like to get out, go to church a lot, spend some time, some quality time, my stepmom is going to retire from her job with Qwest next August and we talked about it you know and I would probably spend some time just getting reassociated with being out. And then she says there's a big laundry place down by Boeing -- I might try to get a job some place like that there in South Everett. But I always feel if there's a will there's a way, you know, there's always jobs to be found if you're willing to work. And I would try to better myself by living a clean honest life, instead of having to live in clouded darkness all the time. Cause, like, say early on in our interview with you here -- I never since I was 16, 17 years old never felt that I had any ... I knew something was wrong with me, you know mentally, but I could never pinpoint it till I came to this program here and started taking medications for it...
NM Well, Larry, what other questions do you think I should ask you?
LF (Laughs) I don't know. Ah, let's see.
Well, I feel happy... you asked me if I'm content in my life. I am content with where I'm at today. Because, even though I'm locked up, like you say, I have, I have a lot of positive things going for my life, you know, the program I'm in. I don't have to, I don't have to... I can be in here and feel less miserable than if I was on the streets ten years ago or twenty years ago.
NM So life was not very pleasant for you it sounds like.
LF No. There was nothing about my life before I came to prison that was remotely productive, you know. I drank, I used drugs and that's all I did. Spent time with women....
NM Well, that's productive right there -- spending time with women!
LF Yeah (smiles).
....
NM I'm interested in going back a little bit to something we already talked about to clarify a little bit -- what' you're saying is that rather than reforming the law you would reform how.. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm trying to verify if I understood right.. rather than changing the law you would change the prison experience? So people would get treatment? Help me out here!
LF Well I would reform... Instead of reforming the laws so much I would reform what happens in prison. I would make people when they come to prison instead of -- even if it is just for short times... go though programs before they can get back out. And make 'em, whether they want to learn something or not, whether they get anything out of it, at least saying, hey we're trying -- they can show on paper, you know, we've taken this person who came in here for Burglary 2, you know, cause he was high on meth, and we're going to make him go through this 18 month program. If he'd like, when he gets out he can say, hey that was a pretty good program, I'll try to lead a straight life, go get me a job, and do whatever.
I think that's what prisons need to do, like I hear some guys talking, old guys who've been around a long time -- that's the way they used to be in the old days, you know. There used to be a counselor or somebody who would take them out, try to find them a place to live, you know, and a job. See those things are all things of the past now, where they give a guy $40 gate money and say here you go.
NM There has been a change nationally from a reform and rehabilitation mode to a punishment mode where it's cheaper -- or it seems cheaper in the short run to punish -- though in the long run you get more crime.
LF Well, I think the public would be at ease if they put a big article in the Seattle newspaper in the Tacoma Tribune saying prisoners are doing this while they're in prison, while they're doing their time. They're also taking all these programs. I think the public would feel like well, hey, maybe our tax dollars aren't just going to lock up these guys for life, you know, without doing them some good.
And think of the... the other question I had earlier -- what are they going to do about the medical cost of it? All the people doing Life Without? When a guy turns 70 years old, 75 years old, you know it's going to cost the state a lot of money to house people like that.
NM Well even in a person's 50s -- I'm 46. My medical costs are going up. As you get past the mid 40s crime goes way down, medical costs go way up. So it's a losing proposition, money wise. Do you want to address the Seattle Times/PI and tell them to do some stories?
LF To the Seattle PI and the Tacoma News Tribune, I'd like you to be aware that if you wrote an article on prison reform -- we do have programs in the prisons that really do work to help people when they're released back into society.
NM There have been some articles...
LF When the public sees crime, it's always a negative thing. Man, just like I told you about yesterday the guy that just got out they tased him and shot at him whatever -- it's always a negative thing. Well, that criminal got away and now the feds are after him, you know.
Well, how come you can't write something good about prisons -- this guy who's been out for 20 years and he owns his own construction outfit now. People never seem to understand for the ones that do make it. They don't want to never say, hey I messed up once in my life or twice in my life but now I've overcome that. And I think it all comes with age, too. I was 35 when I fell on this and you know I'll be 50 this year. I'm not the same person at 50 that I was at 35. My whole thinking is a whole different scenario.
NM How is it different?
LF Well, it's different because I know things now with a clear thought of mind and a clearer conscience than I did when I was drug induced. You know, when I first fell, it took me weeks in the county jail to kick the heroin. And then when they told me they were striking me out it was just like a big nightmare, you know. I was like, man this can't be really happening, it's like a bad dream, you know. And now at 50, like I say, it's like I have a lot clearer aspect and outlook on life.
NM Is there a certain point... I'm asking this because I've experienced this... is there a certain point where your ability to empathize with other people opens up more? As you get older, your ability to say, well, gee that must be horrible for a person at a pizza shop to be held up and be afraid.
LF Yeah, and it does... When you ask if I got empathy for other people. In the unit that I'm in I'm one of the older individuals in there. And I was gunna sign up -- they didn't have nobody to do the back up for the expedite... you know you got like 7 leads, a senior coordinator, an assistant coordinator
NM In the Laundromat?
LF No, in the unit for the TC (Therapeutic Community) meetings. You have senior coordinator, assistant motivation, education, like that.
And I was going to sign up for being the back up expedite lead. Like I told the counselor in my unit, if anything else, I wouldn't mind being just a good example for the younger people in there. And just last week I get mad I sit there during the meeting and we got a couple real young guys set down at one end and they're laughing all the time and this one individual gets up and he reads the house rules, cardinal rules, and major rules. They're just like 3 little lines, you know, on each one. And he's an old guy and he's got a speech impediment. So he gets up and he's trying to read this thing, doing the best he can and these clowns are down here laughing at him, you know. And after the meeting I went up and got in their faces. And I said instead of laughing at him why don't I see you up there trying to read, you know, the thing. You know at least the guy's up there trying, and that's more than you're giving the program.
NM Think they heard you?
LF Oh yeah, they heard me.
NM That's good, so you're teaching them.
LF Yeah
NM Sometimes that's what people really actually need, just to be told things, something that's really obvious right?
LF Yeah. Well that's why I say you gotta believe in the system that we got in there, you know, to make it work. It's not going to help you unless you want it to help you.
NM So you believe in what they're doing?
LF Yeah. And that's what I say. I believe in myself, you know, if I get out, like I said I want to spend a lot of time going to the church I go to and I want to go do things, just go fishing, just do things that I, you know, have a good life.
NM Play softball...
LF Play softball, I don't know if I can make it around the bases at 50.
NM Well, you could, like, remember the statistics.
LF Yeah, yeah!
NM Well, thank you so much, Larry.
LF Ok, Noemie. Nice talking to ya.
NOTES
- Pew Center for the States reported in 2009 that one of 30 Washington adults is under correctional control. (From 1 in 31: The Long Reach of American Corrections).
- If you live in Washington state and support reform of 3-Strikes or want to learn more, visit Justice Is No Game or FIX 3-STRIKES
- Since the death of Samuel Page, also sentenced in January 1994, Fisher is the nation's first three-striker. Both men were raised in state foster care.
- Four three strikers have recently applied for clemency in Washington state. Each petition was supported by King County Prosecuting Attorney Dan Satterberg and recommended unanimously for approval by the state's Clemency and Pardons Board. So far, only Stevan Dozier has been released. Larry Fisher was convicted in Snohomish County, where the Prosecuting Attorney has not backed 3-Striker clemency petitions.