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Every human being is born, powerless and vulnerable, into a world they did not create. Ergo, for the awakening heart of the young, it can be a barren land, a dreamscape of ghosts, built by the bony hands of the dead ... their mouldering myths carrying the cold of the grave not the eros of the breathing moment. Ghosts such as these curse at the present with the imprecatory psalms implicit in the foundation of the Zionist state — and, as the nation’s history unfurled, became explicit in her policies. Israel’s collective brutalities are the blind thrashings of traumatized souls who, in their agonies, wound all near them. 

Although my mother fled Nazi Germany, as a child, on a Kindertransport, with a few family valuables sown into her clothing, and I was brought up on the myths and hagiography of the Zionist state, I, over time, came to recognize the folly of the whole colonialist enterprise — the folly of ethnic exclusion and expulsion, the inherent tragedy of nationalism based on the delusion of religious birthright. With much sorrow, I came to the sad realization that the dream of the State of Israel was based on European chauvinism and exceptionalism. This reckoning has been a difficult one for me to bear — the hardest awakening of my adult life.

My father was born on a Reservation in the American mid-west. His people, like the Palestinians, resisted invaders of European ancestry and were crushed. At present, both peoples remain exiled and caged in their native land.

The Jewish side of myself understands the historical traumas that gave rise to the yearning for a tribal Homeland.  Atavistically, I suffer the Jewish state’s collective night terrors and reel in its daylight rationalizations for its brutalities. But the Native American in me knows the rage of those crushed by the heartless force of an invading people.

Neither my father’s peoples’ bows and arrows nor the "threat" of metal rods, clutched by a few activists aboard the illegally seized Gaza-bound Peace Flotilla, nor Hamas’ small rockets will change the tragic trajectory wrought by a tribalist land grab. History reveals a conquered and caged people will starve, in both body and soul, as they watch their hopes wither to dust. But I will not condemn them for their struggle, and even their "provocations" — dangerous and outrageous provocations ... such as the desire not to live out their lives behind ghetto walls, and the actions they take accordingly. (Even though, a provocation will never soften the banal mind of a bully to end his reign of brutality.)
 
To this day, within me, there are traits of cultural Judaism that have not been washed away in the deluge of shame I experience when confronted by the actions of the state of Israel and the casuistry of her apologists. Deep in my genetic structure, I carry tribal memories of Diaspora and its concomitant feelings of alienation from majoritarian culture. Most often, I still apprehend human existence from the perspective of an alien and interloper, believing my survival is dependent upon knowing where I stand in hostile terrain. By rote, I play the role of the outsider, wary and savvy in my dealings with a hostile gentile world.
 
In this, I understand the paranoid nature of the Jewish state and the reasons underlying her supporters’ rationalizations of her many crimes. Self-deception is at the root of habitual deceit. Sadly, the true believers of the Zionist cause have become case studies in that tragic trait.

The archetype of the eternal outsider and his involuntary wandering still resonates within me. In this manner, I feel kinship with my urban Ashkenazi/Sephardim ancestors ... those who knew a just society, structured on social justice and civil equity, was the Jewish minority’s best hope for living in safety among a gentile majority — not this narrative of grandiosity and exceptionalism one hears muttered by bearded boneheads (and other Bronze Age cultural throwbacks) at the Wailing Wall and posited on the editorial pages of the Jerusalem Post.
 
By stealing those parcels of arid acreage in the Middle East, Zionists will match generations of hostile Goyim in the harm they level upon future Jewry: By having chosen mindless might over justice and fairness, they have bestowed a wasteland upon the human hearts of their descendants.

Every human being is born, powerless and vulnerable, into a world they did not create. Ergo, for the awakening heart of the young, it can be a barren land, a dreamscape of ghosts, built by the bony hands of the dead ... their mouldering myths carrying the cold of the grave not the eros of the breathing moment. Ghosts such as these curse at the present with the imprecatory psalms implicit in the foundation of the Zionist state — and, as the nation’s history unfurled, became explicit in her policies. Israel’s collective brutalities are the blind thrashings of traumatized souls who, in their agonies, wound all near them. 
Such forces of toxic, displaced vehemence can uncouple us from our humanity, warping libido into murderous intent, reducing meaningful endeavor to selfish striving, and twisting our exuberance into zealotry, thereby achieving a form of ass-backward alchemy by transforming living human beings into resentful shades — those seemingly no longer here ... reacting rather than responding, reciting propaganda as opposed to seeking meaning, squandering the golden, eternal moment before us by transmuting it into leaden habituations of the mind. For all appearances becoming a ghost, haunting the moments of one’s own life — non-responsive, sans retrograde resentment, to the élan vital of the world — dead, but for the redundancy of one’s breathing.

In this way, the spirit of a culture can become a mob of resentful, vicious ghosts. With ghosts, the context of their suffering is misplaced. They cannot haunt those who gave them injury. Their tormentors are long dead as well. The raging spirits of the Zionist state can no longer locate the historical oppressors of the Jewish people, for they have long since been conscripted to dust. Hence, the adherents of Zionism reap vengeance against those living souls who misfortune has placed near them.

The Jewish state demands its neighbors make amends for crimes they did not commit — to cower before the steel-toe might of its military and make perpetual penitence for the sins of Europe. 

Even if they did so: Such an act would not restore my mother’s childhood ... would not return to flesh the ashen remains of the millions who made their graves in the winds of twentieth century Europe.
  
For the Jewish people, as is the case with all humanity, survival in the present age is not dependent on military prowess nor the blessing of an imaginary father in the sky. Awakening to new realities restores meaning and resonance to our lives. Felicity to the putrid, Bronze Age admonitions of a savage sky spirit involving the ownership of desert real-estate only entombs the heart and mummifies the mind.
 
Accordingly, the most putrefied and pernicious of these fallacies — the delusion that there exists a "Chosen People" — must be the first to be toppled.
 
God’s Chosen People? Chosen for what reason: First, divinely bestowed entitlement to a parcel of parched landscape, then exile, persecution, extermination? And now for what purpose: Simply to join the brutal ranks of history’s bullies? 

When the ashes of the Holocaust cleared, this is the world my mother’s tribe built: A right-wing state that believes its godly mission is to lord over and oppress a militarily weaker people. Moreover, if they resist — starve them, murder them in their homes, drive them into exile. The Israelis seem to be demanding this of the Palestinian people: Why don’t you simply accept your lot as being compliant lessors and stay confined to your ghettos? 

Furthermore, if you object, then leave — go into exile — wander the earth without a home. It would seem, over the course of the lives of the last few generations of Jewish believers, the ancient myth has morphed: The desert god has become more of an earthly ironist than wrathful sky-daddy.

In fact, mirroring the ways of their invented father in heaven, some of my blood relatives have become such inadvertent ironists, as they, at this moment, squat in Palestine, bristling with misplaced rage, manic with delusional entitlement, and, on the whole, casting a curse upon future generations that will poison their hearts and cascade through the generations with a terrible symmetry.

Phil Rockstroh is a poet, lyricist and philosopher bard living in New York City. He may be contacted at: phil@philrockstroh.com. Visit Phil’s website http://philrockstroh.com/

Originally posted to Phil Rockstroh on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 07:26 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Hear, hear. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mattman, corvo

    Prepare for incoming.

    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

    by bobdevo on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 07:36:54 AM PDT

  •  Beautifully written (12+ / 0-)

    bullshit.

    Here is the heart of the lie:

    I feel kinship with my urban Ashkenazi/Sephardim ancestors ... those who knew a just society, structured on social justice and civil equity, was the Jewish minority’s best hope for living in safety among a gentile majority

    You "atavistic suffering" and your "tribal memories" are fantasies. And they are wrong. Your "urban Aschkenasi/Sephardim ancestors" had no such fantasies, no belief that there was a "just society" that would protect them. No, your "tribal memory" is faulty, for it fails to recall:

    250 C.E. Canhage Expulsion

    224 C.E. Italy Forced Conversion

    325 C.E. Jerusalem Expulsion

    351 C.E Persia Book Burning

    357 C.E. Italy Property Confiscation

    379 C.E. Milan Synagogue Burning

    415 C.E. Alexandria Expulsion

    418 C.E. Minorca Forced Conversion

    469 C.E. Ipahan Holocaust

    489 C.E. Antioch Synagogue Burning

    506 C.E. Daphne Synagogue Burning

    519 C.E. Ravenna Synagogue Burning

    554 C.E. Diocese of Clement (France) Expulsion

    561 C.E. Diocese of Uzes (France) Expulsion

    582 C.E Merovingia Forced Conversion

    612 C.E. Visigoth Spain Expulsion

    628 C.E. Byzantium Forced Conversion

    629 C.E. Merovingia Forced Conversion

    633 C.E. Toledo Forced Conversion

    638 C.E. Toledo Stake Burnings

    642 C.E. Visigothic Empire Expulsion

    653 C.E. Toledo Expulsion

    681 C.E. Spain Forced Conversion

    693 C.E. Toledo Jews Enslaved

    722 C.E. Byzantium Judaism Outlawed

    855 C.E. Italy Expulsion

    876 C.E. Sens Expulsion

    897 C.E. Narbonne Land Confiscation

    945 C.E. Venice Ban on Sea Travel

    1009 C.E. Orleans Massacre

    1012 C.E. Rouen, Limoges & Rome Massacre

    1012 C.E. Mayence Expulsion

    1021 C.E. Rome Jews Burned Alive

    1063 C.E. Spain Massacre

    1095 C.E. Lorraine Massacre

    1096 C.E. Northern France & Germany 1/3 of Jewish Population Massacred

    1096 C.E. Hungary Massacre

    1096 C.E. Ralisbon Massacre

    1099 C.E. Jerusalem Jews Burned Alive

    1100 C.E. Kiev Pogrom

    1140 C.E. Germany Massacres

    1146 C.E. Rhine Valley Massacre

    1147 C.E. Wurzburg Massacre

    1147 C.E. Belitz (Germany) Jews Burned Alive

    1147 C.E. Carenton, Ramenu & Sully (France) Massacres

    1171 C.E. Blois Stake Burnings

    1181 C.E. France Expulsion

    1181 C.E. England Property Confiscation

    1188 C.E. London & York Mob Attacks

    1190 C.E. Norfolk Jews Burned Alive

    1191 C.E. Bray (France) Jews Burned Alive

    1195 C.E. France Property Confiscation

    1209 C.E. Beziers Massacre

    1212 C.E. Spain Rioting and blood bath against the Jews of Toledo.

    1215 C.E. Rome Lateran Council of Rome decrees that Jews must wear the "badge of shame" in all Christian countries. Jews are denied all public sector employment, and are burdened with extra taxes.

    1215 C.E. Toulouse (France) Mass Arrests

    1218 C.E. England Jews Forced to Wear Badges

    1231 C.E. Rome Inquisition Established

    1236 C.E. France Forced Conversion/Massacre

    1239 C.E. London Massacre & Property Confiscation

    1240 C.E. Austria Property confiscation. Jews either imprisoned, converted, expelled, or burned.

    1240 C.E. France Talmud Confiscated

    1240 C.E. England Book Burning

    1240 C.E. Spain Forced Conversion

    1242 C.E. Paris Talmud Burned

    1244 C.E. Oxford Mob Attacks

    1255 C.E. England Blood libel in Lincoln results in the burning / torture of many Jews & public hangings.

    1261 C.E. Canterbury Mob Attacks

    1262 C.E. London Mob Attacks

    1264 C.E. London Mob Attacks

    1264 C.E. Germany Council of Vienna declares that all Jews must wear a "pointed dunce cap." Thousands murdered.

    1267 C.E. Vienna Jews Forced to Wear Horned Hats

    1270 C.E. Weissenberg, Magdeburg, Arnstadt, Coblenz, Singzig, and Erfurt Jews Burned Alive

    1270 C.E. England The libel of the "counterfeit coins" – all Jewish men, women and children in England imprisoned. Hundreds are hung.

    1276 C.E. Bavaria Expulsion

    1278 C.E. Genoa (Spain) Mob Attacks

    1279 C.E. Hungary & Poland The Council of OffondeniesJewstheright to all civic positions. The Jews of Hungary & Poland are forced to wear the "red badge of shame."

    1283 C.E. Mayence & Bacharach Mob Attacks

    1285 C.E. Munich Jews Burned Alive

    1290 C.E. England King Edward I issues an edict banishing all Jews from England. Many drowned.

    1291 C.E. France The Jewish refugees from England are promptly expelled from France.

    1292 C.E. Italy Forced conversions & expulsion of the Italian Jewish community.

    1298 C.E. Germany The libel of the "Desecrated Host" is perpetrated against the Jews of Germany. Approximately 150 Jewish communities undergo forced conversion.

    1298 C.E. Franconia, Bavaria & Austria Reindfel’s Decree is propagated against the Jews of Franconia and Bavarai. Riots against these Jewish communities, as well as those in Austria, result in the massacre of 100,000 Jews over a six-month period.

    1306 C.E. France Expulsion

    1308 C.E. Strasbourg Jews Burned Alive

    1320 C.E. Toulouse & Perpigon 120 Communities Massacred & Talmud Burned

    1321 C.E. Teruel Public Executions

    1328 C.E. Estella 5,000 Jews Slaughtered

    1348 C.E. France & Spain Jews Burned Alive

    1348 C.E. Switzerland Expulsion

    1349 C.E. Worms, Strasbourg, Oppenheim, Mayence, Erfurt, Bavaria & Swabia Jews Burned Alive

    1349 C.E. Heilbronn (Germany) Expulsion

    1349 C.E. Hungary Expulsion

    1354 C.E. Castile (Spain) 12,000 Jews Slaughtered

    1368 C.E. Toledo 8,000 Jews Slaughtered

    1370 C.E. Majorca., Penignon & Barcelona Mob Attack

    1377 C.E. Huesca (Spain) Jews Burned Alive

    1380 C.E. Paris Mob Attack

    1384 C.E. Nordlingen Mass Murder

    1388 C.E. Strasbourg Expulsion

    1389 C.E. Prague Mass Slaughter & Book Burning

    1391 C.E. Castille, Toledo, Madrid, Seville, Cordova, Cuenca & Barcelona Forced Conversions & Mass Murder

    1394 C.E. Germany Expulsion

    1394 C.E. France Expulsion

    1399 C.E. Posen (Poland) Jews Burned Alive

    1400 C.E. Prague Stake Burnings

    1407 C.E. Cracow Mob Attack

    1415 C.E. Rome Talmud Confiscated

    1422 C.E. Austria Jews Burned Alive

    1422 C.E. Austria Expulsion

    1424 C.E. Fribourg & Zurich Expulsion

    1426 C.E. Cologne Expulsion

    1431 C.E. Southern Germany Jews Burned Alive

    1432 C.E. Savory Expulsion

    1438 C.E. Mainz Expulsion

    1439 C.E. Augsburg Expulsion

    1449 C.E. Toledo Public Torture &. Burnings

    1456 C.E. Bavaria Expulsion

    1453 C.E. Franconia Expulsion

    1453 C.E. Breslau Expulsion

    1454 C.E. Wurzburg Expulsion

    1463 C.E. Cracow Mob Attack

    1473 C.E. Andalusia Mob Attack

    1480 C.E. Venice Jews Burned Alive

    1481 C.E. Seville Stake Burnings

    1484 C.E. Cuidad Real, Guadalupe, Saragossa & Teruel Jews Burned Alive

    1485 C.E. Vincenza (Italy) Expulsion

    1486 C.E. Toledo Jews Burned Alive

    1488 C.E. Toledo Stake Burnings

    1490 C.E. Toledo Public Executions

    1491 C.E. Astorga Public Torture & Execution

    1492 C.E. Spain Expulsion

    1495 C.E. Lithuania Expulsion

    1497 C.E. Portugal Expulsion

    1499 C.E. Germany Expulsion

    1506 C.E. Lisbon Mob Attack

    1510 C.E. Berlin Public Torture & Execution

    1514 C.E. Strasbourg Expulsion

    1519 C.E. Regensburg Expulsion

    1539 C.E. Cracow & Portugal Stake Burnings

    1540 C.E. Naples Expulsion

    1542 C.E. Bohemia Expulsion

    1550 C.E. Genoa Expulsion

    1551 C.E. Bavaria Expulsion

    1555 C.E. Pesaro Expulsion

    1556 C.E. Sokhachev (Poland) Public Torture & Execution

    1559 C.E. Austria Expulsion

    1561 C.E. Prague Expulsion

    1567 C.E. Wurzburg Expulsion

    1569 C.E. Papal States Expulsion

    1571 C.E. Brandenburg Expulsion

    1582 C.E. Netherlands Expulsion

    1593 C.E. Brunswick Expulsion

    1597 C.E. Cremona, Pavia & Lodi Expulsion

    1614 C.E. Frankfort Expulsion

    1615 C.E. Worms Expulsion

    1619 C.E. Kiev Expulsion

    1635 C.E. Vilna Mob Attack

    1637 C.E. Cracow Public Torture & Execution

    1647 C.E. Lisbon Jews Burned Alive

    1648 C.E. Poland 1/3 of Jewry Slaughtered

    1649 C.E. Ukraine Expulsion

    1649 C.E. Hamburg Expulsion

    1652 C.E. Lisbon Stake Burnings

    1654 C.E. Little Russia Expulsion

    1656 C.E. Lithuania Expulsion

    1660 C.E. Seville Jews Burned Alive

    1663 C.E Cracow Public Torture &. Execution

    1664 C.E. Lemberg Mob Attack

    1669 C.E. Oran (North Africa) Expulsion

    1670 C.E. Vienna Expulsion

    1671 C.E. Minsk Mob Attacks

    1681 C.E. Vilna Mob Attacks

    1682 C.E. Cracow Mob Attacks

    1687 C.E. Posen Mob Attacks

    1712 C.E. Sandomir Expulsion

    1727 C.E. Russia Expulsion

    1738 C.E. Wurtemburg Expulsion

    1740 C.E. Liule Russia Expulsion

    1744 C.E Bohemia Expulsion

    1744 C.E. Livonia Expulsion

    1745 C.E. Moravia Expulsion

    1753 C.E. Kovad (Lithuania) Expulsion

    1757 C.E. Kamenetz Talmud Burning

    1761 C.E. Bordeaux Expulsion

    1768 C.E. Kiev 3,000 Jews Slaughtered

    1772 C.E. Russia Expulsion

    1775 C.E. Warsaw Expulsion

    1789 C.E. Alsace Expulsion

    1801 C.E. Bucharest Mob Attack

    1804 C.E. Russian Villages Expulsion

    1808 C.E. Russian Countryside Expulsion

    1815 C.E. Lubeck & Bremen Expulsion

    1820 C.E. Bremes Expulsion

    1843 C.E. Austria & Prussia Expulsion

    1850 C.E. New York City 500 People, Led by Police, Attacked & Wrecked Jewish Synagogue

    1862 C.E. Area under General Grant’s Jurisdiction in the United States Expulsion

    1866 C.E Galatz (Romania) Expulsion

    1871 C.E. Odena Mob Attack

    1887 C.E. Slovakia Mob Attacks

    1897 C.E. Kantakuzenka (Russia) Mob Attacks

    1898 C.E. Rennes (France) Mob Attack

    1899 C.E. Nicholayev Mob Attack

    1900 C.E. Konitz (Prussia) Mob Attack

    1902 C.E. Poland Widespread Pogroms

    1904 C.E. Manchuria, Kiev & Volhynia Widespread Pogroms

    1905 C.E. Zhitomir (Yolhynia) Mob Attacks

    1919 C.E Bavaria Expulsion

    1915 C.E. Georgia (U.S.A.) Leo Frank Lynched

    1919 C.E. Prague Wide Spread Pogroms

    1920 C.E. Munich & Breslau Mob Attacks

    1922 C.E. Boston, MA Lawrence Lowell, President of Harvard, calls for Quota Restrictions on Jewish Admission

    1926 C.E. Uzbekistan Pogrom

    1928 C.E. Hungary Widespread Anti-Semitic Riots on University Campuses

    1929 C.E. Lemberg (Poland) Mob Attacks

    1930 C.E. Berlin Mob Attack

    1933 C.E. Bucharest Mob Attacks

    1938-45 C.E. Europe The Start

    Further, the idea that Israel is a colonial enterprise rising from the Holocaust is just false. The Zionist attempt to creat Israel began after World War I, not World War II, and was done with the approval of the world, through the UN, not through the force of colonialism.

    Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Palate Press: The online wine magazine.

    by dhonig on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 07:48:35 AM PDT

    •  If the building of settlements on disputed land.. (13+ / 0-)

      a deliberate provocation... is not fucking colonialism, what then would you call it?

      "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

      by bobdevo on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 07:56:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The land was Jewish before it was Arab (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ubertar, Jersey Jon, Mets102

        will you condemn Arab colonialism?

        •  And who had it before that? (7+ / 0-)

          Can they come back and take it from the Jews? Where did those Canaanites go? Oh yeah they had their land stolen  according to the Good Book of Holy War.

          Canaan predates the ancient Israelite territories described in the Bible, and describes a land with different, but overlapping boundaries.[6] The classical Jewish view, as explained by Schweid, is that "Canaan" is the geographical name, but this is not a view that is universally subscribed to; the renaming as "Israel" after its occupation by the Israelites is derived only from the Bible, and marks the origin of the concept of a Holy Land.[7] The southern highlands region of Judaea existed by that name from the 6th century BC until it was renamed "Palestina" by the Romans following the Bar Kokhba revolt against Rome in the 2nd century AD. In the Bible and elsewhere, Zion originally meant the region of and around Jerusalem but, because the Hebrew prophets use it as a synecdoche to designate the whole of the Israelite land, modern Zionism uses it in that connotative sense, as for example in the naming of Zionism.

          Jews should not use this excuse, nor should anybody else. It would lead to endless warfare. Hitler was reclaiming Poland. With that excuse he began WWII. Europe is full of territory that someone else used occupy. If every faction wanted to reclaim a former position it would lead to WWIII, then WWIV, then WWV, it would never end.

          We need to think like civilized people and not like the barbaric war mongers we are descended from. We at least know enough about the world and ourselves to see how foolish these ethnic lines really are.

          •  And your solution would be??? (0+ / 0-)
            •  Well... (14+ / 0-)

              since the archaeological evidence from the caves on Kurmul documents Neanderthal occupation, I say we let the GEICO Neanderthals hold the land in trust until science allows us to genetically reproduce a true claimant to the Holy Land. No, on second thought, that would likely aggravate the descendants of the fossilized fish...

              Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

              by angry marmot on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:16:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The cyanobacteria is going to out wait us all. (11+ / 0-)

                They're just biding their time.    :)

                We're all just a flash in the pan to them.  And yes, there's evidence of them in Israel...in stromatolites from way the heck back.

                We should all be humbled, really.

              •  GEICO Cave Men . . . . YES!!! (10+ / 0-)

                It's so easy to settle the land disputes that EVEN A CAVE MAN CAN DO IT!!

                "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                by bobdevo on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:24:46 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Dude, I LIKE It! (11+ / 0-)

                Fair's fair.

                NOTICE: All you interlopers get the fuck out. The parameceum are coming to reclaim their land.

                See, it all good!

                You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can always be honest.

                by mattman on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:30:34 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  One thing I'm never quite able to get the answer (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                zemblan, volleyboy1, Mets102, charliehall2

                on is why it's perfectly fine to go back in time to when Palestinians were the dominate population of present-day Israel, but going any farther is necessarily too far back.

                •  Well let's just treat.. (6+ / 0-)

                  ...Jewish and Palestinian nationalism as though it should have universal application to every social and cultural group that conceives of themselves as a people with a connection to a land.  The resulting conflicts and wars will probably reduce the human population to a manageable number.  

                  "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                  by Alec82 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:38:53 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Exactly . . . all property claims should be based (6+ / 0-)

                    upon land grants made by whatever mythical deity/flying spaghetti monster floats your boat . . . and it is perfectly reasonable to kill or fight to the death in order to ensure YOUR FSM prevails.

                    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                    by bobdevo on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:18:36 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  because it is ok to ethnically cleanse Jews! (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  zemblan, volleyboy1, Mets102

                  don't you get that????

                •  Red Sox... (12+ / 0-)

                  First off.  when you have actual living people and their children and grandchildren walking around and if they could, could point to the exact house or plot of land they lived on...it really is a bit more relevant than Charlie's 2000 year wrong.

                  This also applies to Jewish folks who have also lived in Israel/Palestine throughout.  

                  Secondly, as has been noted over and over, the Palestinians share the same deep, ancient roots to the place that Jews do.  Though some would desperately love for the Palestinians to have been nothing more than "Arab invaders", not rooted to the soil, they are.

                  •  What you're suggesting then (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    volleyboy1, Mets102

                    is that Israel simply wait things out until Palestinians who lived in pre-1948 Palestine die so that there are no longer any "actual living people" who can "point to the exact house or plot of land they lived on."

                    That you rope in their children and grandchildren (shit, let's throw in great-grandchildren, and great-great-grandchildren) demonstrates the arbitrary and rigged nature of this exercise so that historical claims go back no farther than those of the Palestinian diaspora.

                    •  No... (8+ / 0-)

                      But I do have a problem when the two are compared.

                      Though I am sure that some of the Israeli policy is to "wait out"  the generations.

                      Surely you can see the difference between the two situations.

                      Can you point to which part of Israel your family came from, if they are not recent immigrants themselves.   As I said, for Jews who can actually point to the village or city or home they lived in, it is exactly like the Palestinians.  Just as those who fled/left/were expulsed from other countries in the last 60 or so years can do.

                      But to go back 2000 years or so, you simply can not compare the two.  Not rationally.

                    •  so... (10+ / 0-)

                      do you then support the right of return for Palestinians or only Jews? And if so, why?

                      The issue here is that emotional attachment to a land one's ancestors are from does not justify expelling people already there, even if it happened to your people thousands of years ago in the same plot of land. Particularly when the people living there in 1948 had nothing to do with what happened 2000 years ago. Why should modern day Palestinians pay the price for what happened 2000 years ago to Jews? Why should they be denied their land while Jews exercise their historical claims?

                      •  I'm not sure if I can encapsulate (0+ / 0-)

                        how I would approach this in the terms of your question, but I will try.

                        do you then support the right of return for Palestinians or only Jews? And if so, why?

                        I support the right of anyone who was forcibly expelled to return to where they were expelled from. So, if you had a home in Jaffa and you left it against your will in, say, 1948, then I would support your right to return to what is now Israel. However if you merely claim Palestinian ancestry without having lived there, then I would neither support nor oppose any claim you might make to a right of return. In such an instance, I would leave that to Israeli immigration law.

                        The issue here is that emotional attachment to a land one's ancestors are from does not justify expelling people already there, even if it happened to your people thousands of years ago in the same plot of land.

                        And I can't find much fault in this logic. But I think you would agree with me that "right of return" means different things to different people.

                        Why should modern day Palestinians pay the price for what happened 2000 years ago to Jews?

                        It's not so much that they should necessarily pay any particular price. Rather, if we're righting the wrong done to Palestinians in the 1940s, why is that the only wrong we're righting? What about the wrong that was done to the Jews in what is now modern Israel? Does the fact that the claims weren't addressed when they should have been preclude them from being made now? If so, that just incentivizes Israel's holding out on any kind of peace until the Palestinians expelled in 1948--and all of them are now over sixty years old--die off.

                        Let me put it another way. I only have one Israeli family that I would count as friends. They made aliyah long after the 1967 war, they live on a kibbutz, and in addition to being peaceniks who market Palestinian goods in Israel and abroad in conjunction with some academics at Birzeit, they're pretty well committed to socialist ideals. I have no idea what their home was before they moved into it, but let's say someone somewhere has one of those keys we often see. Are you going to kick them out to give to the key-holder?  On one hand, the dude lost his home. On the other hand, why should they pay the price for what happened before they ever lived in the country?

                        Why should they be denied their land while Jews exercise their historical claims?

                        If they had land, they shouldn't be denied some kind of recompense. What that recompense is, I don't know. But I've yet to find a "right of return" advocate who limits their advocacy to those who were actually expelled.

                        •  Fascinating (4+ / 0-)

                          So let me get this straight:

                          1. You would need some evidence of forcible expulsion.  This proposed "claim of return" we'll call it, would only then apply to those who could show forcible expulsion, not to all the refugees from 1948, even though they were not permitted to return after the State of Israel was declared.
                          1. If the claim is based on ancestry as opposed to forced expulsion, the matter would be left to domestic Israeli law.  In other words, the Israelis would decide the matter, with nominal Palestinian participation.  
                          1.  There is a third category, those without evidence of forced expulsion but who were not permitted to reenter after Israel was declared, who would not have any claim at all.  Or maybe they would; they're implicitly left out of the plan you've created to handle the refugees.
                          1.  The children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren of the refugees, whether their ancestors were forcibly expelled or not, would have no claim to return to Israel.  They remain stateless, or absorbed into Jordan or other countries, where it has been permitted.  

                          Conveniently, this has the effect of preserving the absolute Jewish demographic majority within "Israel proper."  I'm sure that it is based on well-established principles, though, and not out of a desire for demographic integrity.  

                          "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                          by Alec82 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:46:39 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  This is why it's difficult (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            to fully encapsulate it in a short Daily Kos comment. I would consider anyone who was unable to return to a home they had in what is now Israel to be included in those expelled.

                            If the claim is based on ancestry as opposed to forced expulsion, the matter would be left to domestic Israeli law.  In other words, the Israelis would decide the matter, with nominal Palestinian participation.

                            Well, yes. The United States decides which non-citizens may become citizens of the United States, as does every other countryin the world. Only Israel would apparently be in the wrong.

                            The children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren of the refugees, whether their ancestors were forcibly expelled or not, would have no claim to return to Israel.  They remain stateless, or absorbed into Jordan or other countries, where it has been permitted.  

                            Or citizens of whatever country they call home now, or hopefully, the State of Palestine once it exists, assuming said state's willingness to do so. You peculiarly seem to want to extend right of return to non-resident descendants of Palestinians, but join the chorus of discounting Jewish claims that predate the Palestinian ones.

                          •  Requesting proof of forced expulsion is bullshit (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mattman

                            I don't need to say more you know why...

                            Ok I'll will inform those who don't know. It is just another lame excuse to keep up the other ethnic group out. You might as well insist they have an original passport, land deed, and have 10 living witnesses to their expulsion, and then put them in front of a jury of Jewish Settlers to decide the validity of the evidence.

                          •  interesting (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Ptah the Great

                            I support the right of anyone who was forcibly expelled to return to where they were expelled from.......However if you merely claim () ancestry without having lived there, then I would neither support nor oppose any claim you might make to a right of return.

                            this sounds understandable if it applied to everyone equally but i'm assuming it doesn't.

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 03:45:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  What right of return do you speak of? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Jersey Jon

                        The Jewish right of return is part of Israeli domestic law.

                        When a Palestinian state is created, it can have a similar right of return if it so chooses.

                        There is no right of return associated with the conflict itself.  Res. 194 conveys no right, but is an aspiration, and refugee law does not either.  

                        When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                        by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:29:14 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I think you're conflating right of return with (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          volleyboy1

                          Israel's Law of Return. They're different concepts.

                          •  The Law of Return is what constitutes... (0+ / 0-)

                            the Right of return.  Otherwise, there is no right.

                            When a Palestinian state is created, it can pass it's own law of return, and allow any Palestinian who has a different nationality to come to the homeland.

                            I understand what you are saying, but I think I am correct that the "right" must be codified.  Otherwise it is aspirational.

                            When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                            by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:43:13 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  huh? (0+ / 0-)

                      shit, let's throw in great-grandchildren, and great-great-grandchildren) demonstrates the arbitrary and rigged nature of this exercise so that historical claims go back

                      as opposed to jewish claims which rely on great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grea t-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-......you get it

                      "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                      by zannie on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 03:38:28 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, Yes, (8+ / 0-)

                Back to the primordial soup ... a true return to traditional values.

          •  Yes, when the Jews were down in Egypt-land (7+ / 0-)

            oppressed so hard they could not stand . . .who the fuck was living in the Promised Land?  

            And, then the Lord God Yahweh instructed his children:

            When Yahweh your God brings you into the land that you are about to enter and occupy, and he clears away many nations before you — the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites...and when Yahweh your God gives them over to you...you must utterly destroy them...Show them no mercy...For you are a people holy to Yahweh your God; Yahweh your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on earth to be his people, his treasured possession (Deuteronomy 7.1-11; see also 9.1-5; 11.8-9, 23, 31-32).

            But as for the towns of these peoples that Yahweh your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. You shall annihilate them—the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites—just as Yahweh your God has commanded, so that they may not teach you to do all the abhorrent things that they do for their gods, and you thus sin against Yahweh your God (Deuteronomy 20.16-18).

            Thanks so much for educating us.

            "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

            by bobdevo on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:12:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  But the land IS Arab now. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mattman, Ptah the Great

          Stealing it over some ancient claim isn't right.

          Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

          by Celtic Merlin on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:34:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What land exactly? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Jersey Jon, volleyboy1

            Everywhere between the river and the sea, or outside the Green Line?

            •  The West Bank and Gaza. (4+ / 0-)

              That land.  Exactly that land.

              From the Green Line to the Med is Israel.  I don't recall anybody ever disputing that in these discussions.  From the G.L. to the river is Arab land and there should be no more question about that than there should be about what lies between the G.L. and the Med.

              Why would you ask such a question?

              Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

              by Celtic Merlin on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:57:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Because it wasn't clear (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Jersey Jon, volleyboy1

                at least not to me. Now it is. Thanks.

                •  Then you agree (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mattman, volleyboy1

                  that all of the land from the Green Line to the Jordan is Arab land?

                  Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                  by Celtic Merlin on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 11:10:11 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  More or less (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    zemblan, volleyboy1

                    I suspect there will be land swaps, and as long as residents of any annexed land on either side of the final agreement get full rights as citizens, then I'm fine with that too. But I envision the West Bank and Gaza as the land on which a Palestinian state will be built.

                    •  That's fine. (0+ / 0-)

                      Just don't question me about it again.  I feel that we've established clearly and unquestionably my opinion on the Green Line for all future references.  If there's any change in that, you'll be the first to be notified.

                      You got that?

                      Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                      by Celtic Merlin on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 05:25:53 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  CM, I think that it should be called Palestinian (6+ / 0-)

                    land.  It is a semantics game, but when there are many people who do not see a distinction between Palestinians and all other Arabs, no matter how diverse they are as interchangable, simply referring to it as Arab land opens the door for those who think that Palestinians should just go live with their Arab cousins in some other country.

                    •  You're probably right, Capelza. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      capelza

                      I was making the distinction between Jewish/Arab land, not trying to be specific about which type of Arab (Palestinian vs. Saudi, etc.) mostly because I felt that the folks participating in this diary discussion were familiar enough with the I/P situation to make that distinction on their own.  And that idea was specifically in my head because I was addressing Red Sox - who I know is well-versed in the issues.  Since we rarely make a distinction between Ashkenazi vs. Sephardi Jews in these conversations, I went with a shorter and less-specific term.  I guess I just got lazy.

                      But, when looking at it through your framing of the question, you're probably right that I should have used "Palestinian Arab" or "Palestinian" instead of the more generic term "Arab" that I used.

                      Either way, I want to see negotiations begin with the Green Line being the bright line of a permanent border to be negotiated back and forth between the two parties.

                      What I do NOT agree with is the idea that the Israeli-built Jewish-only colonies on the Palestinian side of the Green Line create a non-negotiable land grab.  In my opinion, those who choose to stay in those colonies should become citizens of the new Palestinian state.  If Israel wants the water and other resources under that ground, they can buy what they need from the Palestinians after the deal is signed - if the PA is smart enough to not negotiate that land away.

                      One never knows, though.

                      Celtic Merlin
                      Carlinist

                      Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                      by Celtic Merlin on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 05:21:58 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  I would question it strictly on the (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Jersey Jon

                Green line but as a basis - yes I think you are right.

                "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                by volleyboy1 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 11:21:30 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  What is there to question about the Green Line? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  capelza

                  It's a perfectly good border and should be made permanent after any agreed-to adjustments during the negotiations.  It should be, however, the initial starting point for border talks.

                  Celtic Merlin
                  Carlinist

                  Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                  by Celtic Merlin on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 05:28:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  The Jews (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mattman, zannie, corvo, Terra Mystica

          only had it a couple hundred years. And then only part of it. The Muslims held it for around 1,300 years.

          But why the fuck does it matter what went on  milleniums ago?

          First defeat, then deceit, then you're totally in denial (old Egyptian proverb)

          by Ptah the Great on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:58:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  i thought it was less than a 100 (0+ / 0-)

            from when to when exactly?

            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

            by zannie on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 03:52:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  According to (0+ / 0-)

              wikipedia, there is evidence of Hebrew kingdoms from about 850 BC until the Assyrian invasion in 722 BC.

              Then there was the Hasmonian kingdom from 165 BC to 64 BC, when the Romans took over.

              Glad you prompted me to reread my early Israel history. It is even more pathetic than I remembered. Only a few villages in the hills.

              First defeat, then deceit, then you're totally in denial (old Egyptian proverb)

              by Ptah the Great on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:15:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Wow. That's a pretty long list. (19+ / 0-)

      Which item on the list are todays Palestinians paying for?

      Dissolve Israel; stop distinguishing between jew and non-jew in Palestine.

      by high5 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 08:00:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He's not saying the Palestinians (8+ / 0-)

        should be paying for any of it.

        Rather, as is quite clear in his comment, he is accusing the author of creating a revisionist history of the Jewish experience in Europe.  Do you disagree with his point?

        •  And how were the European powers authorized (5+ / 0-)

          to give away the Palestinians' land to a bunch of Europeans?

          And Europeanterrorists, at that.

          "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

          by bobdevo on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 08:36:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Jewish immigration was legal... (5+ / 0-)

            and land was purchased.

            Violence was initiated by the Mufti and then under the authority of the AHC.

            Evidence of Haj Amin al-Husseini Before the Royal Commission, January 12, 1937

               SIR L. HAMMOND: His Eminence gave us a picture of the Arabs being evicted from their land and villages being wiped out.      What I want to know is, did the Government of Palestine, the Administration, acquire the land and then hand it over to the Jews?

               MUFTI: In most cases the lands were acquired.

               SIR L. HAMMOND: I mean forcibly acquired-compulsory acquisition as land would be acquired for public purposes?

               MUFTI: No, it wasn't.

               SIR L. HAMMOND: Not taken by compulsory acquisition?

               MUFTI: No.

             

            Interestingly, the Mufti's family made millions selling land to Jews when it baned small Palestinian landowners from doing the same.

            When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

            by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 08:49:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  It wasn't the Palestinians' land (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zemblan, ubertar, Mets102

            The early Zionists paid cash to the landowners with the approval of the Ottoman authorities. The landowners were mostly absentee, Arabs living in Damascus, Beirut, or elsewhere. Complain about the Ottomans, not the Zionists.

            And many of the settlements. such as Tel Aviv, were on unused land. In other places such as Jerusalem, Tzfat, and Hebron, Jews had lived from time immemorial.

            •  You're saying no land was ever expropriated? (6+ / 0-)

              TOTAL FUCKING BULLSHIT, as you can plainly see.

              Allow me to quote a review of Dr. Holzman-Gazit's book Land Expropriation in Israel: Law, Culture and Society.

              the author analyzes the use of expropriation as a tool to marginalize the Israeli Arab population. After the 1948 War of Independence, Israel adopted a series of discriminatory emergency laws, cumulatively designed to legally 'justify' the forced transfer of land from private Arab to public Jewish ownership (pp. 105-11). Since then, even the general AO expropriation power has been used overwhelmingly against Arab landholders and in Arab neighborhoods. Chapter 7 details this vividly, illustrating how Israel used expropriation in the Galilee and East Jerusalem after its annexation of these territories. . .

              Holzman-Gazit is/was legal advisor to the Israeli Inter-ministerial Committee on Reform of Land Expropriation Law and visiting professor at Stanford Law School:

              "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

              by bobdevo on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:00:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  And that would make them landowners. (8+ / 0-)

              And yet when I bought my house, I had no right to declare it the Grand Duchy of Corvistan or anything of the sort.  Whether Jews owned all the land in the Mandate, or none of it, is immaterial; Jews were granted a state by the successor entity to the League of Nations, the entity that had created the Mandate in first place.

              It's also worth noting that Jews had by no means purchased all of the land in the Mandate.  Arabs owned quite a bit too, although those who were forcibly displaced or fled during the Nakba are regarded by Israel as having forfeited their property claims, right?

        •  Yep (7+ / 0-)

          Because nothing in that list conflicts with the author's point that a just society with social justice and civic equality is the best hope for a Jewish minority (and for everyone else on earth, too).

          Unless, of dhonig is arguing that the Visigoths had created a "just society with social justice and civic equality," but that fact still left Jews out in the cold.

          Dhonig doesn't challenge the author's thesis at all, he just changes the subject in order to justify Israelis taking Palestinian land.

          "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

          by weasel on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:23:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The author's thesis was that (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            volleyboy1, Mets102

            Jews are safer as a minority throughout. Dhonig provided a long list of examples, many of which I'm sure would have considered themselves "a just society," where being the Jewish minority meant you pretty much wound up dead or displaced.

            I know how much you despise the mere mention of anti-Semitism, but its deadly reality is why dissolution of the one tiny Jewish state is untenable for most Jews.

        •  Of course he and the A.S. crowd are (3+ / 2-)
          Recommended by:
          Red Sox, mattwb, Mets102
          Hidden by:
          weasel, Fire bad tree pretty

          disagreeing with it. It messes up their false narrative of Jews having no claim to the land. Now all we need are the idiots who bring up the "Khazars" and we have a full boat load.

          "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

          by volleyboy1 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:31:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  ??? (7+ / 0-)

            Of course he and the A.S. crowd are disagreeing with it.

            The "A.S. crowd"?  Ah, another blanket accusation of anti-semtism of the type that Red Sox is always telling me don't exist.

            "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

            by weasel on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:00:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Uprated for HR abuse (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            volleyboy1
            •  Indeed (4+ / 0-)

              As we've seen, you constantly complain that I don't talk about anti-semitism enough (though of course I'm often one of the first HRs when anti-semitic nonsense actually shows up), but then you uprate these blanket accusations of anti-semitism.  And you seriously wonder why I don't take your game of "Who's an Anti-Semite Now" seriously?

              "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

              by weasel on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:37:58 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  LOL first of all (0+ / 0-)

                you HR'd someone you were in a conversation with. That's a Bozo no-no. Second you never gave a reason. Third in your rush to lie about me you didn't even see the comment I replied to where Bob Devo called the founders of Israel Terrorists.

                weasel.. get a grip. I know you can do it. Find your inner happy place and get a grip. Your HR is unwarranted and abusive.

                "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                by volleyboy1 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:47:12 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well (4+ / 0-)

                  The conversation I've been having is with Red Sox, not with you.  As for a reason, I gave it: your blanket accusation of anti-semitism.  

                  "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

                  by weasel on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:54:37 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  LOL really? (0+ / 0-)

                    Look I am not going to beg you to remove your asinine HR... It's a fucking joke. You know it and I know it. Look at the comment and thread it is in response too. You feel crappy about your views, fine but don't take it out on me.

                    "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                    by volleyboy1 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:59:10 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Oh really btw you are (0+ / 0-)

                    having a conversation with Sox eh?

                    Then the post titled ??? is in response to him then? Really? Here is your quote in response to me and the comment YOU HR'd:

                    ??? (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:mattman, capelza, callmecassandra

                    Of course he and the A.S. crowd are disagreeing with it.

                    The "A.S. crowd"?  Ah, another blanket accusation of anti-semtism of the type that Red Sox is always telling me don't exist.

                    "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

                    by weasel on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:00:51 AM PDT

                    [ Parent | Reply to This | RecommendHide ]

                    Care to keep digging?

                    You are losing it man.

                    "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                    by volleyboy1 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 11:07:35 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  I don't think I've ever (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                volleyboy1

                complained that you "don't talk about anti-semitism enough." If you have an example, I'd be willing to see it, otherwise you're just making shit up again.

                I have noted, and continue to note, your bizarre antipathy to it ever being mentioned. Take this recent instance with Volley--so desperate are you to play the "they call all of us anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel" prevarication, that you've decided that "A.S. crowd" necessarily applies to non-anti-Semites.

                And you seriously wonder why I don't take your game of "Who's an Anti-Semite Now" seriously?

                I can't say I've ever seriously wondered what you take seriously. Seriously.

                •  Circling as always (4+ / 0-)

                  You wish to argue semantics (yes, I used seriously twice in a sentence; terrible form, that) while you are uprating the blanket accusation of anti-semitism.  

                  Note VB's comment.  He was specifically referring to those who disagreed with the previous post.  Whether by comment or by rec, there were only a few of us who actually voiced disagreement, none of whom are anti-semites.  For there to be a "crowd" of anti-semites disagreeing with comment, it must have included not just some of us, but all of us.

                  VB was playing the standard vague-accusation-of-antisemitism game, he just played it poorly.  He should have used the traditional defense, saying he was talking about "some people" as away of defending his smear on everyone he disagrees with.  But instead, he decided to specifically call out people who dared to disagree with the previous comment.

                  The fact that you uprate VB's attacks shows why you aren't taken seriously in your seeing anti-semitism so constantly here at DKos.

                  "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

                  by weasel on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 11:01:21 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I can't blame you for wanting to see it as (0+ / 0-)

                    semantics, but it just isn't true. There is a marked difference between expecting someone who "do[es]n't talk about anti-semitism enough" and one who makes a hobby out of objecting to its mention.

                    VB was playing the standard vague-accusation-of-antisemitism game, he just played it poorly.

                    This is another unfortunate prevarication. The "A.S. crowd" was neither inclusive of everyone nor exclusive of anyone. Moreover, I highly doubt that the large non-bigoted majority of pro-P posters would engage in historical revisionism of Jewish suffering in Europe, just as I would see such historical revisionism as a potential indicator of something more sinister.

                    The fact that you uprate VB's attacks shows why you aren't taken seriously in your seeing anti-semitism so constantly here at DKos.

                    Constantly? No. From time to time and more often than acceptable? Sure. You don't like it ever being brought up, I get it...really, I do. Hence past objections to pointing out the bigotry of folks like ElishaStephens and other hatemongers. Unfortunately, it's a reality. So while it cuts me to the core that you won't take me seriously on the subject, it's not going to be something I can readily ignore. Since you would prefer to do so, you might want to just skip over my comments in the future, lest there be even an allusion to a reference of a concept that touches on anti-Semitism.

                    •  And again (4+ / 0-)

                      VB defined the "AS crowd" as those disagreeing with the prior post.  That includes me.  Maybe he didn't list me as an anti-semite, only the other people who disagreed with the post, such as Bobdevo, corvo, mattman, callmecassandra, etc.  However, none of them are anti-semites either, as you well know.  Read VB's post.  He made a specific accusation based on a specific position, i.e. disagreeing with the previous post.

                      "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

                      by weasel on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 11:25:29 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Keep Digging. (0+ / 0-)

                        "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                        by volleyboy1 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 11:29:55 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  No, he didn't. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        volleyboy1

                        Let's go in order.

                        1. The diarist suggested that a "just society" where Jews are a minority is the best scenario for Jewish survival.
                        1. Dhonig provided a long list of examples where societies repeatedly persecuted the Jewish minority.
                        1. high5 decided to go from the long list of European historical failings to ask "Which item on the list are todays Palestinians paying for?"
                        1. Futuristic Dreamer pointed out that dhonig wasn't placing any blame on the Palestinians, but rather "accusing the author of creating a revisionist history of the Jewish experience in Europe." He then asked high5 if he disagrees with the point.
                        1. Volley then said that "he and the A.S. crowd are disagreeing with it." He didn't specify who was in said crowd, who was out of said crowd, or whether it was exclusively "the A.S. crowd" that disagreed with it. Moreover, since you never said whether you agree or not, it requires your need to be a consistent victim of character assassination as an anti-Semite for you to reasonably include yourself by necessity.
                        •  Thank you for demonstrating my point (4+ / 0-)

                          As VB said: "he and the A.S. crowd are disagreeing with it." Hence, the AS crowd is those who "are disagreeing with it."  The only people known to VB to disagree with it could be those who posted so or who recced such comments.  I disagreed with it.  Go back and actually read the comments.  In answer to the question do you disagree, I said, and I quote, "yep."   I then went on to explain my disagreement.

                          Again, perhaps VB wasn't referring to me, but only to the other people who disagreed.  But since not one of them is an anti-semite, this "A.S." description, and moreso the crowd description, is bullshit.

                          "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

                          by weasel on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 11:46:46 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  That's a pretty transparent logical fallacy (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            Hence, the AS crowd is those who "are disagreeing with it."

                            No, the A.S. crowd disagrees with it--it is common for anti-Semites to discount or deny Jewish persecution in Europe. Others may disagree as well.

                          •  That is your opinion. (3+ / 0-)

                            I can only go on the words VB used, not your opinion that you would like to super-impose over those words.  VB used the words "are disagreeing with it."

                            "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

                            by weasel on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 12:26:51 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, they most likely (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            "are disagreeing with it." Your interpretation of Volley's statement would mark the first time that X disagreeing with Y necessarily precludes Z from disagreeing with Y. I guess you get points for originality...

                          •  Except that (3+ / 0-)

                            the only folks VB knows who disagreed with the statement are those, like myself, who spoke up.  You are positing a conversational absurdity, whereby VB makes a reference to people have taken a certain position, and you want to read his reference as encompassing no one who has actually taken that position, but potentiall encompassing certain unnamed people who haven't taken the position but you assume might.

                            VB is trying to play the game, whereby he attacks and smears, but maintains deniability.  Your pretense that those disagreeing with the statement don't actually include those disagreeing with the statement is absurd.  VB shouldn't have made the slur.

                            "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

                            by weasel on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 12:33:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You needn't be an I/P regular to know that (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            part and parcel of using the legitimate grievances of the Palestinians as an outlet for one's anti-Semitism involves discounting or denying the Jewish suffering that led in part to the creation of Israel.1 High5, who has engaged in clear anti-Semitism here in the past2 immediately did just that by invoking the irrelevant point that none of these transgressions were the fault of the Palestinians. It hardly then requires all those who would disagree (as an anti-Semite like high5 would) be anti-Semitic for Volley to rightly point out that any anti-Semite would defend revisionist history WRT Jewish suffering in Europe.

                            Put another way, almost all anti-Semites rail against Israel--it's as predictable as the sun setting in the West. Pointing that out does not necessarily mean that you lump all critics of Israel in with them.

                            <HR>
                            1Before continuing, to head off the tiresome and inevitable, just because people use the Palestinian cause as an outlet for anti-Semitism does not speak to the vast majority of pro-P advocates have nary a bigoted bone in their body.

                            2I know, I know, you hate when anti-Semitism gets pointed out, but unfortunately it's a necessary topic for the overall point.

                          •  Circling, Circling (3+ / 0-)

                            You keep dodging the point that VB attack those who "are disagreeing" with the comment made, a category that included me, and did not include any anti-semites.  Might an anti-semite also disagree?  Possibly, but that isn't what VB said.

                            In the end, you return to the central point: "Put another way, almost all anti-Semites rail against Israel--"  You want to maintain the right to make generalize, but non-specific accusations of anti-semitism across the board.  VB was playing this game, the same game you want to defend playing, he just played it badly, and messed up his attempt at deniability when he called out a very limited group of people who had made statements.

                            BTW, do you notice that VB can't defend himself here, and only hides behind you, though he is obviously checking every minute or two?  He knows he overstepped on the established rules of "vague accusations of anti-semitism."  You are the only one defending this abusrd charge.

                            "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

                            by weasel on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 01:16:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                •  Sox, First of all (0+ / 0-)

                  thanks for the support. Second of all, he is off the freakin' rails here. He is so desperate to nail me or anyone else who even mentions there might be some Anti-Semitism at DKos. I write that Partially Impartial should not be surprised that Anti-Semites would support bullshit. weasel is just playing off a vendetta. It's petty, it's childish, and it is stupid.

                  I am telling you - come waste time with us in Fry'd Daze... it's less stressful and we are starting a good discussion.

                  "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                  by volleyboy1 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 11:03:17 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Who is the AS crowd then? (7+ / 0-)

                    I mean if it isn't intended as a blanket condemnation of your political opponents then you can go ahead and articulate which posters you meant to identify with that language.  That should settle the matter.

                    "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                    by Alec82 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 11:06:41 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Oh there are (0+ / 0-)

                      no anti-Semites at DKos?... Thanks for clearing that up for me. I withdraw the comment based on your pithy comment.

                      "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                      by volleyboy1 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 11:16:06 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  There are only two reasons... (4+ / 0-)

                      I can see to invoke the very serious accusation of "anti-Semitism." On the one hand, expressed opinions might reveal the essence of anti-Semitism, hatred of Jews. Such opinions are despicable, and should be called out. On the other hand, the accusation of anti-Semitism might be employed as a means to silence voices with which one disagrees.

                      Red Sox' use of "etc." in his list and volleyboy1's use of "yep them and others but generally them," followed by Red Sox'

                      Well, we could just put the matter to bed by naming the "others." Though you might deprive some of their victimhood status as a result. I think it's worth the deprivation.

                      and volleyboy1's

                      Nah,,, it will open up a whole other "can of worms".

                      suggest to me that their invocation of anti-Semitism falls into the second category, a clumsily wielded rhetorical tool for silencing dissent.

                      Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

                      by angry marmot on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 12:47:58 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yes that is us (0+ / 0-)

                        the censorship brigade.

                        Nice try... Are you new to this - I haven't seen you around I/P. I like the effort.

                        "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                        by volleyboy1 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 01:12:51 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Aw, how cute... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Fire bad tree pretty

                          condescension and a false appeal to authority from experience. Good, good...

                          Censorship implies an institutional origin, so I am not suggesting you are part of a "censorship brigade." Rather, I assert that your insinuations of anti-Semitism, a truly heinous charge, are designed to shame the person(s) whom you implicate and silence viewpoints opposing your own. Your broad claims for anti-Semitism--the "others" you sense on Daily Kos--are simply a graceless rhetorical strategy and a coarse exploitation of an emotional issue.

                          Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

                          by angry marmot on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 03:50:24 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  Boy (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mattman

            First we have to listen to a sermon about the 1663 Cracow Public Torture & Execution and the 1664 Lemberg Mob Attack, now we have hear about how many of us here at Dailykos are anti-Semitic.

            First defeat, then deceit, then you're totally in denial (old Egyptian proverb)

            by Ptah the Great on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 01:19:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Well I disagree and I'm not an anti-semite (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            capelza

            and neither do I take your blanket accusations of antisemitism kindly. Start being more careful with your language.

            Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

            by Fire bad tree pretty on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 05:15:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ummmm aside from (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              livosh1

              playing team sports here... I don't take to warnings or demands well.... I don't recall saying you were an Anti-Semite your HR is ridiculous and unwarranted. But sure play team sports all you want in a diary that is pretty much over. Make you feel good does it?

              "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

              by volleyboy1 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 08:03:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  This is not sport (0+ / 0-)

                and your inability to recognise the offensiveness of your own comment is not my problem. And no, that does not make me feel good.

                Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

                by Fire bad tree pretty on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:28:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well my comment wasn't directed at you. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Mets102

                  There anti-Semites in the Anti-Zionist movement both here at DKos and outside of our community. I will not apologize by calling it out. Now most here are not anti-Semitic but some are. Your being offended by something not directed at you is your issue and your language warning me is not appreciated. Nor is your attack HR. So I will just say - don't tell me what to do or how to check myself I don't take well to that and it is not your place to demand that.

                  I am done commenting on this thread so I am happy to cede the last comment to you. Know this though, I do not think you are an anti-Semite. I can say that I do believe you are an anti-Zionist not an anti-Semite. I cannot say I believe the same of some others. Please don't spin this as anything else.

                  "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                  by volleyboy1 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:41:10 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Clearly Italy... (4+ / 0-)

        ...is responsible for all of this.  It is the first nation to appear on the list.  

        "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

        by Alec82 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 08:35:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Well there was (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ubertar, volleyboy1, Mets102

        1917 Jaffa expulsion
        1929 Hebron expulsion
        1948 Jerusalem expulsion
        1948 Kfar Etzion massacre

        •  Not to mention the expulsions (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ubertar

          and ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab countries after 1947, based on minority persecution in complete violation of human rights law, where property in the billions was confiscated and communities, pre-existing Arab presence, were wiped away.

          Jews are not even allowed in some of these wonderful states.

          So much talk about Zionists claiming racial superiority when Jews and Christians were second class citizens under the Rule of the Book for hundreds of years, up to and including the present.

          When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

          by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 08:56:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ethnic cleansing of Jews rarely gets attention (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zemblan, ubertar, volleyboy1, Mets102

            in DKos diaries. The number of Jews who lost their homes is about the same as the number of Palestinian Arabs who lost their homes. (To be fair, Palestinian Arabs were responsible for very little of that ethnic cleansing.)

            •  I agree. Local Palestinian Arabs... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              zemblan

              in many cases were victimized by Palestinian leaders and foreign Arab leaders in a cynical game that continues to this day.

              Was just reading about the many villages which made peace agreements with the Jews during the partition period and did not want the ALA to fight on their behalf.  They wanted to live with the Jews in peace.  

              When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

              by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:09:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Deir Yassin (6+ / 0-)

                was one of those villages who rejected the ALA and declared non-hostility.  Unfortunately, the village was on a strategic strip of road, well within the lands partitioned for the future Arab State.

                Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                by Eiron on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:27:48 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yet there was fighting... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  zemblan

                  in the village before it happened, so far as I know.  Heavy fighting.

                  The Jews warned that even if a village agreed to peace, but then was used to attack, then the agreement would no longer have effect.

                  What was done there to women and children was wrong.

                  So, by the way, was the massacre of almost 80 nurses and doctors 4 days later.  It was planned before Deir Yassin ever happened, a pre-meditated massacre.  

                  Some of these samaritans were not just killed, but then burned beyond recognition.

                  So let's not perpetuate the myth that it was only Jews who committed massacres.  The Arabs, the majority, did so more and finally Jews fought back.

                  That does not excuse Jewish conduct, however.  But the point is that most local Palestinians were not averse to living with Jews, whose proximity provided better economic and health conditions than Arab leaders did.
                   

                  When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                  by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:54:38 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  No it gets plenty of attention (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mattman, corvo, Ptah the Great, Deep Texan

              Considering Israel is denying right of return to the refugees it created that number in the millions. I don't here about Jews demanding a right of return to Arab nations, if they did I would support them. I heard the same complaint twice, that is how much attention it gets. We used to talk about it all the time. I even recall the number 800,000 Jews expelled from Arab nations. That was a shameful and racist thing to do. It was antisemitic, but the Nakba was also racist and cruel.

              The thing is if Israel was not created there would neither be a Nakba nor an Arab expulsion of Jews. Not that the creation of Israel justified the expulsion of Jews, it would simply have stopped that particular racial conflict from boiling over into state sponsored ethnic cleansing by both parties. Not to mention the countless wars and deaths that continue today.

              •  Had there been no creation of the State of Israel (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                zemblan, volleyboy1, Mets102

                Another 1.4 million Jews could have died: The 800,000 expelled from Arab countries, and the 600,000 living in Palestine in 1948. There was no place for them to go. And remember that Israel's "War of Independence" was caused by an Arab invasion -- Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, and Trans-Jordan did not want a Palestinian State, either.

                •  a hypothetical (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mattman, corvo, Terra Mystica, Deep Texan

                  and a partial truth that is really a falsehood.

                  When did most of the 800K leave Arab countries?  In the late 50's, following Israel's invasion of Egypt with two European powers.  

                  Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                  by Eiron on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:29:43 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes, they just "left". (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    volleyboy1, Mets102

                    A novel interpretation.

                  •  Many before then (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    volleyboy1, Mets102

                    There were essentially no Jews in Iraq or Libya, and very few in Yemen, by 1951. The Iraqi government had openly sided with the Axis and sponsored pogroms starting in 1941. There were also pogroms in Libya in 1945, Yemen in 1947, and in Syria, Egypt, and Lebanon in 1948. Israel saved hundreds of thosands of Jewish lives. Nobody else was willing to do that. Only in Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia did the Jewish communities survive to 1956.

                    •  a lot of this (8+ / 0-)

                      is really just sloppy history charlie.

                      Where to begin: The 1941 coup in Iraq by Rashid al-Gailani was a local event; it was waged against the British backed Iraqi monarchy because Iraqis were sick of British colonial rule, and it was overturned in the same year by the British army. Al-Gailani fled Iraq, and the allied monarchy, widely considered by Iraqis to be a puppet government of the British, was restored. The farhud in Baghdad (pogrom is a European word) took place during a period of great political instability. After the British backed monarchy was restored, the Jewish community of Baghdad thrived again. There were a large number of Jews in Baghdad until the 1960s until the Baath came to power.

                      It is also true that Zionist militias were training in Baghdad in the 1940s and 1950s, and the Mossad was active in Baghdad as well. We could easily say, as Zionists always do, that the tragedy is that Zionist leaders sacrificed their people for the goal of Israel. Very sad, definitely tragic, but can we really use the term ethnic cleansing? I don't know about that, especially since apparently some Zionists refuse to acknowledge that thousands of Palestinian women and children being marched at gunpoint by Rabin is not really ethnic cleansing because it's a "loaded term". And alas, Rabin is a hero. So if what happened to Palestinians there was not ethnic cleansing, then what happened to the Jews of Baghdad certainly was not either. Sorry about that, but just using your standards here.

                      •  By 1958, the 135,000 Jews in Iraq... (0+ / 0-)

                        had been reduced to 6,000.  Then the Baath conducted the public hangings and from there it was reduced to under 10 today.

                        Zionism was a capital crime.

                        To say that Jews thrived is just a relative thing.  They were afforded second class citizenship in all aspects of society and were protected only to the extent they complied with dhimmi.

                        When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                        by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:37:30 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  there was (6+ / 0-)

                          no such thing as "dhimmis" in Iraq in this period, and the accounts of Iraqi Jews themselves differ with your accounts. So I'll take their words over your anti-Muslim views.  

                          •  Don't know what period you mean... (0+ / 0-)

                            but that stuff does not just vanish.

                            According to the Sheik Muhammad Abu Zahra, speaking at the Academy of Islamic Research in Cairo in 1968, Jews still living in Arab lands should be condemned, “[b]ut we say to those [Muslims] who patronize the Jews that the latter are ‘dhimmis,’ people of obligation.”

                            The current Charter of Hamas, in Articles 6 and 31, reiterates the status of the “dhimmi” for the Jews and the Christians.

                            And to make it even worse, there was the legacy of the connection with fascism targeting Jews starting in the 1930s, making them even less than second class citizens, followed by discriminatory legislation, and the hanging of the richest Jew in the country and continued persecution through law.

                            Yeah, it was peaches and cream.  

                            When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                            by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 02:37:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  we're talking (5+ / 0-)

                            about the 1940s and 1950s, and we were specifically talking about Iraq, which you know, is a country different than Egypt, eh?

                            And in Iraq, and in fact in Egypt as well, the legal code was modeled after French and British laws. There was no legalized dhimmi status for any minority, Christian or Jew.

                            Nobody said it was peaches and cream, but neither does that entitle you to spew lies and falsehoods based on your own virulent antipathy to Islam and Muslims. You might at some point try picking up a history book on any of the Arab countries you so regularly mischaracterize.

                          •  I am not spewing... (0+ / 0-)

                            and I could say you are lying as well.  What would that prove?  Why not learn how to converse without making people who see differently as if they enemies.  Your whole approach, frankly, sucks.

                            What occurred in the 1940s and 1950s was affected by what occurred in the 1930s.

                            The situation for Jews in Iraq was oppressive and discriminatory.

                            The laws that were enacted in some cases directly discriminated against Jews and in others were applied in a discriminatory fashion.  

                            The dhimmi concept is part of the culture.

                            I don't find that you are an expert, especially if you cannot acknowledge that these laws were enacted and that, in Iraq, there was substantial influence from the Axis side.  And we know what they stood for.

                            In any event, i will repeat.  You are not the font of truth.  Maybe, besides calling people liars as a method of discourse, you should widen your own reading.

                            No more comments for you.  It is a waste and you are too demeaning for me to hear you.

                            When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                            by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 03:35:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  frankly (6+ / 0-)

                            you have this track record of spewing, yes spewing, bigoted nonsense ("the dhimmi concept is part of the culture") without historicizing it. My point stands, there were NO dhimmi laws in Iraq in the 1940s and 1950s. You are a liar and a bigot. You desire to see the Arab world as an enemy, you paint it as hostile and  racist. I grew up there as a minority, I study the region and its history professionally. What you write is a bunch of propagandistic rubbish gleaned from right wing sources. Nothing more.

                            You deserve to be demeaned. You disguise yourself as someone seeking conversation and dialogue. Your real intent is to spread hate against Arabs. So don't converse with me, but be prepared to be called out on your hate speech.

                          •  I am SOOOOO hurt by you. (0+ / 0-)

                            The fact is that I do not seek dialogue with you, based on what I said.

                            It is ALWAYS YOU who starts with me.

                            You do not like or agree with what I say, so you demean and call names.  I hope that makes you feel big.

                            People regularly say Zionists claim racial superiority, yet the dhimmi concept actually does that.  Why is that bigotted to say so?  Is it fictitous?

                            Why were Jews historically discriminated against in Arab countries?  Why were laws passed that made them second class, even in Iraq?

                            I ask rhetorically.  I don't care what you say.  You are ignorant.  Completely.  You don't know what bigotry is.  Nor a lie.  Uou think you do, and that is why you are ignorant.

                            See ya around.  I know you will find me again, because you have that need.  So sad.

                            When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                            by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 03:57:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  yawn (4+ / 0-)

                            again, more nonsense from someone who can't seem to focus. When confronted with your lies, you descend into general nonsense and hatred of Arabs, something you feel so deeply it comes out in every comment of yours. Why do you hate Arabs so much? It really is sad.

                            But, I do think your hatred of Arabs should be pointed out. Sorry that you don't like to be challenged (your usual mo is to scream "waaaahhh, I'm leaving this conversation because I can't take my bigotry being exposed!!!"), but if you spew lies and hatred, you'll be confronted. That's the way it works here, bigot.

                          •  I do not hate anyone. (0+ / 0-)

                            That is your warped way of defining things.

                            Just another sign of how small and ignorant you are.

                            I know the difference between Arab leaders and people, and I constantly point it out.

                            I do have trouble with the way Jews have been treated.  These leaders sided with the Nazi and infested more hatred in the people.  Deal with it.  That is not bigotry, but FACT!

                            I don't need to run from you.  You give yourself too much credit.  You are just a waste of time and it is my choice to take the high road and not participate.  I see enough hatred every day and you are closer to it than I have EVER been.

                            When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                            by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 04:22:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  and yet (5+ / 0-)

                            You are just a waste of time and it is my choice to take the high road and not participate.

                            Here you are responding.

                            If you do not hate Arabs, why do you lie so much about them and spread hatred towards them? I would like to believe it is just because you are simply not very well educated, but I think it's a combination of your lack of education and bigotry, quite a lethal combination unfortunately. Yes, those awful non-existent dhimmi laws of Iraq in the 1950s. Where do you get your history again? David Horowitz's hate site?

                          •  Lie? that is your view. (0+ / 0-)

                            I see plenty in your speech that I consider wrong.  I was referring to dhimmi as it existed in the historical context of Islam with regard to non-Muslims.  It was and still is part of the culture and religion in my view, in so far as many see Jews.

                            For you to deny that anti-semitism among Arabs is not rampant is absurd.  Is that not bigotry?

                            You make the terms so narrow.  OK, no dhimmi laws in Iraq in the 1050s per se.  But was Zionism not made a capital crime?  Zionism?  Were Jews not persecuted by laws as a follow up to the Draft Agreement of 1947, specifically adopted to persecute Jews?  Get real.  That is not bigotry to point it out.

                            When 135,000 people become less than 10, what does that say?  You seem to defend it by saying that the laws of persecution were of a lesser character?  The fact is that they were odious.

                            I think what you say to justify your beliefs is quite wrong, but I have better things to do than call impugn you.  But your name calling remains an illustration of ignorance for you believe that your narrative is supreme.

                             

                            When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                            by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 04:40:22 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  fyi (5+ / 0-)

                            Dhimmi laws were scrapped during the Ottoman Empire in the 1850s. This was at a time when chattel slavery was still in practice in the US.

                            For you to deny that anti-semitism among Arabs is not rampant is absurd.  Is that not bigotry?

                            Excuse me? First of all, I didn't deny anything. But second of all, yes, I will deny that comment because it is a disgusting bigoted characterization of an entire people. Is there anti-semitism in the Arab world? Well, yes of course, just as there is anti-Arab racism in Israel. But "rampant among Arabs"? This is like saying anti-Arab racism is "rampant among Jews". That would be a sick comment, so I hope you see how sick your own comment is. But your problem, and I'll say this again, is you speak in such mind-numbingly ignorant generalities that you end up making these broad, foolish comments. It's like you can't control yourself.

                            About Zionism in Iraq--Zionist militias were training in Baghdad. What the hell did they expect, to be greeted with flowers? The history of Iraqi Jews mid-century is a complicated one, but I suggest you read the work of Orit Bashkin on the matter, a real scholar who happens to be Israeli who goes beyond your binary view of Arabs and takes into consideration all the different political movements in Iraq during the period.

                            When 135,000 people become less than 10, what does that say?  You seem to defend it by saying that the laws of persecution were of a lesser character?  The fact is that they were odious.

                            And yet, when it is pointed out that 750,000 Palestinians were forcibly removed from their homes, followed by laws which seized their properties and lands, you blame Palestinians and their leaders rather than the people who did the dispossessing. So excuse me if I don't take you or your double standards seriously.

                            It is unfortunate that Zionist militias and Mossad agents in Baghdad were there trying to get Iraqi Jews to leave. The British-backed, non-democratic Iraqi government at the time collaborated with them. The Iraqi government should have protected its Jewish community. But one can talk about what happened there honestly, without lying about it, and without your ahistorical and inaccurate ranting about "dhimmis", a term thoroughly misunderstood and used today by right wing, Islam-hating fanatics. Of course Jews in Iraq were persecuted by the state. That's not the issue here. The issue is how your lack of specifics leads you to descent into these anti-Arab talking points.  

                            So if you're actually interesting in a conversation with people, drop the right wing talking points and anti-Islam, anti-Arab rhetoric. It is transparent and disgusting.

                            I have to leave, so adios and good luck educating yourself out of your anti-Arab sentiment.

                          •  I stand corrected... (0+ / 0-)

                            as in this one instance I actually did try to add some edification to your comment.

                            How stupid of me.  I should have realized you would go straight to the gutter because history is unkind to the way Arabs treated Jews.

                            When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                            by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 04:04:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  That is incorrect. (0+ / 0-)

                    They were persecuted as minorities in direct retaliation for things that occurred outside their countries.

                    For people so concerned about refugee populations, there sure is a lot of ignorance about the Jewish refugees from the conflict.

                    This ethnic cleansing was planned in 1947 by the Arab League of States and implemented through law.  

                    When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                    by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:59:03 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Most Jews who left Egypt (4+ / 0-)

                  went to Europe or the U.S.

                  First defeat, then deceit, then you're totally in denial (old Egyptian proverb)

                  by Ptah the Great on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 11:45:06 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Actually, almost 1/2 went to Israel... (0+ / 0-)

                    which is more than any other country.

                    When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                    by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 12:05:38 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Maybe if the Israeli government (0+ / 0-)

                      hadn't used Egyptian Jewish agents provocateurs in 1954 to commit acts of terrorism the Jews here would have had a different history.

                      First defeat, then deceit, then you're totally in denial (old Egyptian proverb)

                      by Ptah the Great on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 12:31:59 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yes, it's Israel's fault (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        zemblan, volleyboy1, Mets102

                        that Egypt ethnically cleansed its Jews. Why not, I mean Israel's to blame for everything else.

                      •  Maybe there are fairies (0+ / 0-)

                        Not impressed by your source and there is controversy just how effective these acts were.

                        It does not change the fact that Jews were a persecuted minority in Egypt and denied nationality under law.  The laws were applied in discriminatory fashion against them, solely because they were Jewish.

                        In other words, the story would have been no different and the Lavon Affair is a ruse to divert responsibility.

                        When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                        by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 02:45:58 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Jews had citizenship (0+ / 0-)

                          and held top posts in the government, and many were extremely prosperous. Their wealth was expropriated at the same time the government stole everyone's wealth, including that of rich Muslim Egyptians. There are still a handful of Egyptian Jews in the country who worship in the large art nouveau synagogue on Adly Street in downtown Cairo. I've met a number of them.

                          You make shit up to fit into your warped world view.

                          First defeat, then deceit, then you're totally in denial (old Egyptian proverb)

                          by Ptah the Great on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:43:26 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Uhhhhh (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102, canadian gal

                            It's a little more complicated than you make it out to be.

                            The vast majority of Jews in Egypt did not have citizenship.  By 1947 they were forced out of their jobs by new laws.

                            Should Israel be blamed for that?  Hell, the only people to speak out against the various Arab nations' expulsion of their Jewish populations were the Palestinians who basically told them they were causing a forced population exchange that was going to fuck things up for the Palestinian people.

                            Long prior to Israel's formation, however, there were still blood libels and the occasional pogrom and even though Egyptian society was, as a rule, extremely liberal and tolerant, only 10% of resident Jews were granted citizenship.

                            Part of what these conversations seem to miss in the Jewish connection to the state of Israel is that it the stories are always, "It was great there for Jews until..." or "Such-and-such country showed great tolerance for its Jewish population"... etc., etc.

                            Hair on fire is the new black!

                            by arielle on Sat Jul 10, 2010 at 06:44:06 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I get my information from Egyptian Greeks (0+ / 0-)

                            who have Egyptian citizenship. Most Greeks were forced to leave Egypt like Jews, Italians and other foreigners. A great number of Greeks had moved to Egypt before World War I, when it was still officially part of the Ottoman Empire and there were no restrictions on residency for other subjects of the empire. These were the days of the mixed courts, when people with foreign passports who committed crimes were tried in special courts run by their embassies, so many people sought European nationality.

                            Later, the mixed courts were abandoned and the Egyptian government opened the door to citizenship to residents. Most, but not all, Greeks chose not to take citizenship because that meant conscription into the Egyptian army. They also believed the British and other governments would always be there to protect them. In the 1950s, the Egyptian government closed the door to citizenship, then gradually instituted restrictions on foreigners working, first by requiring one-year work permits, and later by making these permits harder to obtain. After the 1958 and subsequent nationalizations, all sorts of people began leaving Egypt, including the Muslim elite.

                            I know of no law in 1947 stopping Jews from working.  

                            First defeat, then deceit, then you're totally in denial (old Egyptian proverb)

                            by Ptah the Great on Sat Jul 10, 2010 at 10:44:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  Same with Lebanon (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    capelza, Ptah the Great

                    The population of Jews actually increased after 1948 as many Jews from Syria and Iraq came to Beirut rather than go to Israel. The population continued to do well in the 1950s and 1960s but after the domestic political problems in the late 1960s and early 1970s, they emigrated to the Europe and the US. A cousin of my mother's (a Christian) is visited annually by her best friend from school who is Jewish and now lives in NYC. They both went to a convent school with lots of Muslim girls.

                    Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

                    by Fire bad tree pretty on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 05:32:38 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  There was that problem of Israeli (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mattman, corvo

              terrorist incitements that turned turned Egyptians against their Jewish neighbors...

              First defeat, then deceit, then you're totally in denial (old Egyptian proverb)

              by Ptah the Great on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 11:35:33 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Which Arab state (4+ / 0-)

            does not allow Jews in, pray tell, my dear?

            First defeat, then deceit, then you're totally in denial (old Egyptian proverb)

            by Ptah the Great on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 11:33:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Syria and Iraq have done so... (0+ / 0-)

              to my knowledge.

              When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

              by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 11:58:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You mean to tell me (0+ / 0-)

                that of the tens of thousands of American troops and officials in Iraq, none are Jewish?

                You're wacky.

                First defeat, then deceit, then you're totally in denial (old Egyptian proverb)

                by Ptah the Great on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 12:05:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  What an idiotic reply (0+ / 0-)

                  As if soldiers and diplomats have to have visas.

                  When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                  by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 12:07:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  As if Iraqis had a say (0+ / 0-)

                    in who gets visas to begin with. Show me any evidence Iraq does not allow in Jews. What a fucking stupid allegation to make to begin with.

                    First defeat, then deceit, then you're totally in denial (old Egyptian proverb)

                    by Ptah the Great on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 12:11:50 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  They may have changed, but it was the law... (0+ / 0-)

                      there.  Believe what you want.  I could care.

                      The fact is you asked and I answered.  you just don't like the answer.

                      When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                      by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 12:18:43 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  When was it law? (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        mattman, sortalikenathan

                        I mean, I know my comments are idiotic, I'm too smart for my own good and I play games, but I do have delusions of knowing something about the Arab world, and I really think you are bat-shit wrong.

                        First defeat, then deceit, then you're totally in denial (old Egyptian proverb)

                        by Ptah the Great on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 12:34:31 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Starting after Israel became a state... (0+ / 0-)

                          and enough of the sarcasm.  You started with the snide remarks.

                          Entry of any Jew within the Syrian borders has been prohibited, according to the Arab News Agency, June l4, 1948.

                          New York Times, May 16, 1948, reported:  “In Iraq no Jew is permitted to leave the country unless he deposits £5,000 ($20,000) with the Government to guarantee his return. No foreign Jew is allowed to enter Iraq even in transit.”

                          When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                          by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 02:09:30 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                •  In other words... (0+ / 0-)

                  you deliberately twisted what I was saying and came up with something that is too smart for your own good.

                  When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                  by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 12:11:10 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Actually it wasn't that well written (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zemblan, volleyboy1

      Phil's obviously high opinion of his prose is alas not backed up by this bramble of cliches.  Perhaps he should try less hard to be a philosopher bard and just try being a writer.

    •  Actually it was long before WW1 (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mets102

      Herzl died in 1904 and he wasn't even the first modern Zionist.

      And Jews have been praying for a return Israel for 2000 years.

      •  Should have prayed for world peace (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mattman, corvo, Deep Texan

        That coveting land thing ain't working for nobody. Always leads to war, lots of war. Did god want Israel to have a large nuclear arsenal to wipe out entire nations? We seen this story before, and it does not end well. A lot of people have died to satisfy some ridiculous impulse to fulfill prophecy while violating the way the prophecy supposed to be fulfilled. If for the prophecy then a lot have died for a bone headed ideology.

    •  Thank you for (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mattman, edtastic, Deep Texan

      illustrating the Zionist paranoia and Jewish victim-psychology I limned in my post.

      •  Sometimes, paranoia is justified by facts (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zemblan, volleyboy1

        and this is certainly the case for the way Jews have been treated.

      •  Jewish victim-psychology only really affects (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zemblan

        those of us who marry within the faith.

        •  According to who? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mattman, corvo, Deep Texan

          Just making it up as you go along I guess. I think victim psychology Jewish or otherwise does not have preconditions other than the attitudes of the person who feels themselves or their group the victim. It is not limited to Jewish people or result in a specific unrelated set of behaviors like a preferred shoe color or choosing to avoid all potential victimizers all the time. Feeling ones group to be the victim will not automatically lock you into a dogmatic position. Like most things in life, it can be apart of you with the mixed bag of other traits you may have. You can have contradictions in a person because people do stuff like that.

      •  Find yourself a dictionary (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zemblan, canadian gal, charliehall2

        and look up "paranoia." You see, that is only a diagnosis when people are NOT out to get you. For Jews, and many other minorities, the right word is "history."

        Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Palate Press: The online wine magazine.

        by dhonig on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:00:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  People out to get people, get over it (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mattman, Deep Texan

          Rich our out to get the poor, poor out to get the rich, white out to get the black, black out for revenge on the white, and the list goes on forever.

          Get over it, being at risk is apart of life. Threats exist for all people on earth and all groups have been victimized at some time or another but all of them don't obsessed with victim status because they find it easier to assimilate and move on. The victim status is being exploited by Zionist, if people did not like Jews it would be entirely ineffective. The victim status causes people to feel more sympathy because they already are sympathetic to Jewish people and their past suffering. The sympathy is then exploited to defend a nation that victimizes other people, that most in America have less sympathy for being they are not around to defend themselves.

          •  "Get over it, being at risk is apart of life." (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            canadian gal

            So when are you next planning to play tennis on the freeway? That's a good way to risk being apart from life.

            harps and angels! harps and angels!

            by zemblan on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:39:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Is that what you think life with Gentiles is like (1+ / 1-)
              Recommended by:
              mattman
              Hidden by:
              canadian gal

              You think Jews outside of Israel are at such risk that it is the equivelent of playing tennis on a freeway?

              You drive on a freeway, and it is risky. You could have an accident, their could be drunk drivers but you don't refuse to drive on the freeway. You play tennis but you could injure yourself, but you play anyway. No people are immune from risk and their are a lot more people in the world more at risk than Jews. Just because Jews have an exhaustive documented history of every bad thing that happened to them does not make their lives more dangerous than other people. How many pogroms have you lived through?

              NONE, right so get over it.

              Black people are living with the people who enslaved them for 400 years, and you think you have issues. The Native Americans were slaughtered by the ancestors of those who they live with now.  The Japanese were rounded up and interned. The Chinese hand laws passed against their very presence in the nation. Guess what, they all got over it to the extent they are not seeking to create a state elsewhere so they can abandon ship in the event the racism returns. These people have long histories of bad things too but they don't carry around a list in their pockets to remind them everyday.

              Thats what makes you as an individual paranoid. There are plenty of Jewish people who don't spend their days worrying about the return of pogroms.

              •  What a fantastically idiotic response. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Red Sox, volleyboy1

                Even by edtastic standards, you really missed the (tennis) ball on that one. Would you like to try again?

                harps and angels! harps and angels!

                by zemblan on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:33:39 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Truly...as if the developments in Malmo... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  zemblan

                  and elsewhere matter not a bit, not the fact that cops in Amsterdam act as decoys to catch/deter hate acts towards Jews.

                  Here is a Brussels Source:

                  A second front to the conflict in the Gaza Strip has opened up in Europe, where a wave of reprisal attacks against Jewish targets is stoking fears of a wider resurgence of anti-Semitism on the continent. Far from simply being a spate of isolated incidents, as many Europeans claim, anti-Semitic violence is becoming more commonplace in every country in Europe. At the same time, anti-Israel demonstrations, which have strong anti-Semitic overtones, are being held with alarming frequency in cities across Europe.

                  And the ADL's 2009 report on European attitudes towards Jews.

                  When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

                  by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 11:06:20 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Classic I love this line (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  zemblan, thebluecrayon, canadian gal

                  How many pogroms have you lived through?

                  NONE, right so get over it.

                  But hey there is no Anti-Semitism here at DKos.

                  "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                  by volleyboy1 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 11:29:23 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That's Antisemtic? Yes get over it ... (0+ / 0-)

                    Some people take their ancestors history too seriously. You have to live in your time and not theirs. Things change, and it is time to stop acting like death, genocide, and destruction are one comment away. I described quite a few victims of this nation that don't seem to be as worked up about their tragic histories as those commenting here.

                    Meanwhile we have to listen to some folks even in those groups who just can't get over a tragic past. They actually think the world owes the something like a consolation prize for winning the bad history sweepstakes. The world owes itself to move on and do the best it can with the future.

                    I mean it, time stop looking for the bogey men around every corner. It is mainly Zionist who are hyper sensitive and paranoid about these things in the Jewish community. They need it to justify Israel's existence with the threat to Jewish people, and Israel's continued oppression of the Palestinians with the Arab threat.  So I would like the Zionist to get over these fears, if they don't peace  won't be possible.

                    If I fear spiders I would not kill them all or lock every last one of them up being a glass wall. I would not spend my days reminding myself the things spiders did to me. I would simply do my best to live with the risk they present and remain aware most spiders are harmless. The same goes for humans.

                    You can't make the world safe for Jewish people because it is not safe for anyone. If there were only Jewish people then the threat to Jews would come from other Jews. This world is not safe. Our history is littered with ethnic cleansing, genocides, mass murders, and we are still doing that kind of stuff today.

                    Look at Rwanda, they got over it to the extent they did not end up splitting the nation in half. The Congo is still in the killing phase. The world just ain't safe but we have to accept the risk so we can make some kind of peace that doesn't involve treating large groups of people like inmates or sub human perpetual victims.

                  •  You know the repubs love to tell minorities (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    zemblan, volleyboy1, canadian gal

                    to "get over it."

                    That would never be acceptable here...

                    oh wait.  

                    That would never be acceptable here, if and only if one's saying it to Jews.

                    •  They have gotten over it, It's new stuff we fight (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Ptah the Great

                      For the most part minorities have gotten over the basic fact of their tragic past. Now when some unarmed black man gets shot in the back of the head by the police and you say "get over it" or a gay man is beat to death by a mob I think we have a duty to make some noise injustice and racism.  Living in the present is what I am talking about. Many minorities have real issues right now, real crippling discrimination right now. They are not stuck in the past, nor can they afford to be. It is not about what happened 50 years ago it is about what happening today.

    •  hey (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mattman, corvo

      let's not obsess or anything

      First defeat, then deceit, then you're totally in denial (old Egyptian proverb)

      by Ptah the Great on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:52:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Your over-the-top purple prose (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Treg, zemblan

    is exceeded only by your extremist position that is not based on fact or reality.

    When the ashes of the Holocaust cleared, this is the world my mother’s tribe built: A right-wing state that believes its godly mission is to lord over and oppress a militarily weaker people. Moreover, if they resist — starve them, murder them in their homes, drive them into exile

    How quickly and conveniently you forget the wars waged by Israel's Arab neighbors that had the avowed purpose of "pushing the Jews into the sea".

    •  People are responsible for their own sins, (11+ / 0-)

      not for the sins of others, nospinicus. No amount of abuse of A by B, gives A the right to do to C what was done to A by B. This constant pulling in of irrelevant history to justify what is being done now is a form of denial and displacement, and Kos and the Holy Land are not necessarily the best place for therapy for that. I am Shocked, SHOCKED! that you left out the pitchout by the Romans. Citizen53 will cuss you out for that.

      And if you want to cite the wars by Israel's neighbors, referring to pushing people into the sea, exactly where do you think Israel expects all the Palestinians they are forcing out of the Holy Land to go? The WB has no seacoast.

    •  Right wing??? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zemblan, ubertar

      Most of the Zionists were Socialists who wanted to create a Workers' Paradise! There is no Democrat in the US Congress who is anywhere near as far to the left as was Ben Gurion, and there was another political party that made him look like a Rethug by comparison! Even the religious Jews were quite happy to go along with that as long as they could observe the Sabbath and kosher laws, and study Torah in their yeshivas.

      •  That was then . . . this is now. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mattman, corvo, Celtic Merlin, Deep Texan

        Israel is certainly not leftist at this point in time.

        "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

        by bobdevo on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 08:50:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actuallly, it is! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zemblan

          It has a far better universal health care system than the US will even after Obamacare takes effect.

          It keeps banks on a short leash and did not have a financial meltdown.

          It has an unusually generous social welfare system benefitting Jews and Arabs alike.

          It has high taxes bordering on confiscatory.

          Democrats in the US don't dare dream these things.

          •  Interesting that some have a problem... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zemblan

            seeing that Israel's adversaries are more illiberal when it comes to human rights.

            Not even a close call.  

            They have no threats yet offer their own people much less in the way of rights, stifle and repress opposition, and then hide behind the shield of external self-determination to shield scrutiny by others.

            When I say what I mean, it's normal here to be told otherwise. I wish I knew myself as well as those who tell me.

            by citizen53 on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:01:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Those lucky Arabs . . . . (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mattman, Deep Texan

            and do you know of another leftist-socialist countries that want to bomb Iran or who are effectively controlled by a right-wing fundamentalist religious minority that claims authority based on 5,000 year old scripture?

            "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

            by bobdevo on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 09:05:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  You calling Likud Socialist? LOL! (3+ / 0-)

        Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

        by Celtic Merlin on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:46:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The people living in the WB and Gaza today (0+ / 0-)

      are not the leaders of the Arab nations who attacked Israel all those years ago.

      The Arabs of Palestine should not have to pay the "Price Tag" for the agression of other nations.  Although, you seem to want to push the idea that one Arab is no different from any of the others, so why not use those wars as an excuse to create a Greater Israel with home demolitions, colonies on Arab land, and the Collective Punishment of those who now live under the thumb of the Hamasholes.

      Yes, there were wars waged.  None of the people now being oppressed by the Israeli government were a part of them (unless you have evidence to the contrary specific to particular Palestinian Arabs).  The wars of the past started by other nations are no excuse for what's being done to the Arabs of Palestine today.

      Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

      by Celtic Merlin on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 10:45:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Beautifully Written (6+ / 0-)

    and right on target.

    Very moving.

    Tipped and RECOMMENDED.

    You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can always be honest.

    by mattman on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 08:12:46 AM PDT

  •  I don't know which is more pretentious (7+ / 0-)

    The writing or the self-labeled "philosopher bard."

    It's also quite funny to see a rant about delusional religious entitlement singling out one group in the Middle East.

    By stealing those parcels of arid acreage in the Middle East, Zionists will match generations of hostile Goyim in the harm they level upon future Jewry

    Zionism is as bad for Jews as the Holocaust, which murdered ~1/3 of them.  Got it.

  •  Death of Rabbi Yehuda Amital (0+ / 0-)
    Since Shabat is coming, I don't have time to write a diary, but this deserves mention:

    http://www.jpost.com/...

    Rav Amital was a leader of religious moderation. He will be missed.

  •  Being a poet, lyricist and philosopher bard (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    capelza, zemblan, volleyboy1

    must be an exhausting vocation.

  •  Are you referring to the anti-Zionist Jews (0+ / 0-)

    of the 1930's who vigorously resisted the idea that Jews needed their own country?

    I feel kinship with my urban Ashkenazi/Sephardim ancestors ... those who knew a just society, structured on social justice and civil equity, was the Jewish minority’s best hope for living in safety among a gentile majority.

    A diary about them would be enlightening.

  •  this is a truly repulsive and hate filled screed (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1

    just nauseating.

    two cheers for democracy

    by ClaryinVT on Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 03:56:23 PM PDT

  •  Thank you Phil (0+ / 0-)

    for sharing some of your family history. I appreciate your honesty.

    Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

    by valadon on Sat Jul 10, 2010 at 01:34:25 AM PDT

    •  Thank you (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      valadon

      After some of the abuse that I took in this thread, I appreciate those who got the point of the piece.

      As for the hurlers of all the invective, no worries ... I grew up around those sorts of viscous clowns. I know all their soul-defying shtick.  

      •  You did get clobbered (0+ / 0-)

        but it just shows the mentality of some people. They can't brook anything negative about Israel. As I've said before: they could probably accept negative things about our own country first. Maybe it's a collective paranoia.

        Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

        by valadon on Sat Jul 10, 2010 at 08:44:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Tribal bias (0+ / 0-)

          brings out the crazy/vicious.

          I was born in Birmingham, Alabama ... Most of the Jews I grew up around supported Jim Crowe and made the same sort of attacks on those Jews who supported desegregation. As I said: I grew up around these sorts of mean-spirited, tribalist clowns. I know and am inured to their vicious, reactionary tactics.  

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