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Two days ago, Newsweek Magazine published an online article entitled, "Don't Boycott Israel. They Very Idea is Repellent," authored by Jacob Weisberg, an editor at Slate. The article itself isn't particularly revelatory, save for the mild air of desperation about it.

But what is no less than stunning is the comment section of this milquetoast, middle-of-the-road publication. Newsweek's online readers just aren't buying it, confirming what republican pollster Frank Luntz found regarding American attitudes toward Israel in a poll commissioned by The Israel Project following the Flotilla raid:

56% of Americans agree with the claim that there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza;
43% of Americans agree with the claim that people in Gaza are starving;
[Only] 34% of Americans support the Israeli operation against the Flotilla;
[Only] 20% of Americans “felt support” for Israel following announcement of easing of Gaza closure.

Israel is losing the PR war for America.

What are these commenters objecting to?  Weisberg reviews the pros and cons of boycotting Israel, finally concluding that the idea is repellent because...well...it's Israel. He employs a well-worn deflection ("Hey, look over there! China, Syria and Zimbabwe are a lot worse"), and he manages to gently play the anti-semitism card.

Weisberg's sneering attack on Meg Ryan (?!) for being "sheeplike" and bowing out of an appearance at a Jerusalem film festival fails to convince. He also pounces on Elvis Costello for canceling a concert--and then gives Costello a few more points for being thoughtful about it (unlike that bubble-headed ding-dong Ryan?). According to Weisberg, a boycott of Israel has consequences that are "intrinsically vile," but he doesn't adequately explain what those are, because he actually seems to be arguing with himself about it. It's vile because it's just vile, you know, academic boycott of the best people, and probably counter-productive, but on the other hand we can't be authoritarian about it, and, um, it's unlikely to work. And stuff.

Whatever. It seems more and more Americans have become well-versed in the particulars of Israel's founding, including the ethnic cleasing of 750,000 Palestinians, its 43-year occupation and the criminality attendant to that enterprise, its tactics, its danger to the United States, and the role of our own government in propagating the injustices going on there. These commenters know about and mentioned the savage war on Lebanon in 2006, Israel dropping white phosphorus on UN schools and hospitals during the assault on Gaza in 2009, the blockade of Gaza, the Flotilla raid, General Petraeus' warning that our interests are harmed by our perceived favoritism of Israel, Netanyahu's insults to our President and Vice-President, the amount of aid we give to Israel annually.

They also sound like they're sick of it.

Speaking of which, here are some of the comments from the Newsweek thread. Most of these can be found closer to the beginning of the thread, before the anti-semites and the Israeli Keyboard Defense Forces showed up.

On Boycotts:

George Linus
Yes, boycott of everyone except Israel is OK. Boycott of Iran, Cuba, Serbia, Zimbabwe, North Korea, Austria (Jorg Haider), Arizona, Iraq, Myanmar, Greece, Turkey, Iceland and many, many other in a diverse group of countries is productive except when it comes to Israel. Then the boycott becomes unproductive.

Richard Tastad
Boycotting is one of the few avenues open to peaceful civilized humans. It may be a slow process, but it has worked in South Africa, and it will work again in Israel. It shows the steady progress of international opinion as more join the boycott. What governments can't do, the people will do for them. When the people lead, the government will follow. Apartheid will not prevail in Israel, it will deteriorate as the world around her, progressively becomes disgusted with her behavior.

Thoughts on the only democracy in the Middle East:

GregB
It always amazes me that one of the cornerstones of the Israeli arguments about their special place in the region and in their relationship with America and the world is that they are the only liberal democracy and promoter of Western values in the Middle East and yet their basic argument when called on to live up to those standards is that they are not as bad as Zimbabwe, Syria or China. Strange argument indeed.

AuContrairian
Let's be honest here: he can talk all he wants about Israeli "democracy," but the Palestinians living in the occupied territories do not have ANY voting rights under this "democracy" and are subject to a different set of laws and rules than are their newfound "neighbors" (aka Israeli settlers). As such, the best analogy is with South Africa: while the word "apartheid" may be a magnet for controversy, "apartheid" or "legal separation" is exactly what is going on here.  

On the anti-semitism card:

Brewer
You expel me from my home at gunpoint and I don't give a rat's what religion you are.

On International Law

James Daniel
International Laws are being broken.... cant imagine why Jacob would protest the idea of Boycotting Israel

On the Plight of the Palestinians:

Gerald Bowman
Mr. Weisberg you never got around to mentioning the valid reasons that a person may choose to support a boycott of Israel. Many of is in the world see Area as a racist semi-rogue state on par with 1980s South Africa or 1960s United States. The boycott makes sense to us. The rationale is that the people of Israel and the world must know that the status quo is unacceptable.

mike
Boo hoo. Israel displaces, occupies, bombs, massacres, imprisons, tortures, discriminates against, blockades and starves Palestinians, and you are crying about missing an Elvis Costello concert? People of conscience will continue to boycott apartheid Israel until its apartheid policies end: one state with equal rights for all its peoples. Boycott, divest and sanctions until there's right of return for displaced and reparations.

On the Tactics of Israel's Defenders:

Chris Gray
I 100% agree with Mr. Wilson. No one who gets to the end of this article will end up feeling very persuaded by the author's argument because this form of sophistry does not even really attempt to make one; in the end this entire story was little more than an exercise in obfuscation and propaganda. The tides have changed and it is clear that Israel can not win the public relations battle for World Opinion much longer. Several noble peace prize laureates have already condemned Israel as an apartheid state (Carter, Tutu, etc.) and Millennial generation American Jews are no longer willing to claim antisemitism when people point out Israeli war crimes likes dropping white phosphorus on UN run schools or murdering innocent people in international waters.  

On American Aid to Israel:

John Doppler
...

"Some Israelis take international rejection as an affirmation, concluding that amid a sea of hostility their only recourse is self-sufficiency."  

Israel? Self-sufficient? GLORY HALLELUJAH! I thought I'd never see this day! After years of sucking tens of billions of dollars out of the pockets of American taxpayers, Israel is now ready to stand on its own two feet like a real country. This IS a glorious day indeed, and I have Jacob Weisberg to thank for bringing this new situation to my attention.  

Jacob Weisberg says that Israelis now want to be self-sufficient and we Americans should oblige this request to stop all US foreign aid to Israel.  

I JOIN JACOB WEISBERG IN HIS CALL FOR AMERICA TO IMMEDIATELY STOP FUNNELING ALL OF THE BILLIONS OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS TO ISRAEL.  

And Finally:

John Josinger
Israel has lost me, my Grandpa got shot fighting the Germans. Right is right, and wrong is wrong. Israel does not have an exemption card on morality.

The sleeping giant is waking up. More and more Americans want no further part in subjugating the Palestinian people. And Americans will not support Israel at the expense of America's own interests.  

Now, when will America's lagging indicator, the US Congress, finally catch on? Remember, 22% of Americans felt support for Israel after the Flotilla raid. But 84% of the senate and 69% of the House signed resolutions in support of Israel following the raid.

Now that's bi-partisanship we can't believe in.

 

Originally posted to Flyswatterbanjo on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 07:26 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Good diary (12+ / 0-)

    Though I could have done without the string of comments from the Newsweek thread.  It doesn't really add much.  I'd suggest pulling out one or two that you think make good points or bring up new ideas, and simply linking to the rest.

    The poll is very interesting, I wish we could see the full details.

    "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

    by weasel on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 07:32:52 AM PDT

  •  Man, if the mendacious Israel Project can't (17+ / 0-)

    get a better poll result, they ought to fire Luntz and shred his Global Language Dictionary.

    http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/...

    Their real God is money-- Jesus just drives the armored car, and his hat is made in China. © 2009 All Rights Reserved

    by oblomov on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 07:35:47 AM PDT

  •  That's GREAT News! (11+ / 0-)

    The boycott is working!  Way to go.

    Must be, huh?  Otherwise they wouldn't feel the need to respond like this.

    And, maybe, just maybe, Israel will learn to listen to her real friends who don't wish to see her self destruct.

    Hoping.

    You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can always be honest.

    by mattman on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 07:45:50 AM PDT

  •  I doubt even pro-Israel individuals (5+ / 0-)

    would deny that there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. The most strident pro-I types will place the blame entirely on Hamas. The most strident pro-P types will place the blame entirely on Israel. Both could be in that 56%.

  •  As long as Dems like Alan Grayson continue (9+ / 0-)

    to defend Israel's atrocious behavior any hope that the "people's" opinion will change Congressional minds is lost.  As we should have learned by now, the "people's" opinion matters not one whit to our "leaders" (both parties) in Congress and in the WH..

    "History is a tragedy, not a melodrama." - I.F.Stone

    by bigchin on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 07:49:19 AM PDT

  •  No one buys the victim routine (25+ / 0-)

    That's Israel's biggest problem right now.  As time passes and America lurches on fighting a war without end against "terrorism," they are no longer moved by appeals to the victim narrative used to insulate Israel from criticism.  Even Barak recognized this recently:

    Part of it is underlying change, somehow there is a growing attempt to de-legitimize Israel. Time passed from the, you know, thirty years ago leaders all around the world still remember the suffering of the Jewish people. Israel was the answer for what happened in Europe. Nowadays, practically no leader has personal memory of what happened there but what they see on the screens everyday is the suffering of the Palestinians. Without drawing a moral equivalence or with all due difference, that's what attracts the attention and even there is a change that we have to resist.

    Washington Post Interview

    In other words, people are beginning to feel guilty for what support of Israel has done to the Palestinians, a "change that we have to resist" to maintain the illusion of Israeli victimization.

    It will not work; time passes, people move on.  The Palestinian refugee crisis and Israel's aggressive behavior is a problem that needs to be resolved today.  And Americans, who have been responsible for perpetuating it, need to take the lead at some point for ending it by supporting a boycott of the Occupation.

    Great diary.

    "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

    by Alec82 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 07:53:33 AM PDT

  •  A Luntz poll and anonymous Internet comments? (6+ / 0-)

    There is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

    But there's no real evidence that Americans' views towards Israel are becoming more negative.

    •  Why no public polls? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MBNYC, Mets102

      All we see is this anonymously leaked summary of the poll. Has anybody every produced the questions or details about the methodology and results?

      If everybody is so certain that Israel is losing the American public, why isn't there a public poll which shows it?

      The few, the proud, the Pro-Israel Kossaks.

      by psychodrew on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 08:02:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If the mainstream media aren't showing polls, (10+ / 1-)

        that's much more likely to be because the results are not good for Israel than because they are good.

        The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

        by lysias on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 08:13:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So polling companies aren't reporting their polls (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JNEREBEL, MBNYC, Red Sox, thebluecrayon

          because they're involved in a broad conspiracy with the MSM to withhold any negative information about Israel.  

          The lack of evidence supporting this conspiracy theory is, I presume, only further evidence of such a conspiracy.

        •  HR for CT. n/t (5+ / 0-)

          "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

          by JNEREBEL on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 09:08:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If noticing how the corporate media only report (8+ / 0-)

            news that suits their agenda amounts to a conspiracy theory, then there are a lot of people around who believe in conspiracy theories.

            The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

            by lysias on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 09:13:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Give it a rest. (11+ / 0-)

            Lysias' comment is simplistic, but if Luntz's poll had been good for Israel, they would have sent out a press release to every media outlet on earth.  

            The HR brigade is really getting tiresome.

            "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

            by weasel on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 09:15:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's all they can do to silence people (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              oblomov, lysias, valadon, borkitekt

              They have no argument, only HRs

              •  The HR brigade may be fighting some of what (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                borkitekt

                they hear, not exactly broken hearts, but fighting the possibility of it with bluff and bluster and the highest style they can manage. Don't forget, they grew up in a cultural world where a lot of this stuff is not supposed to be happening like this either. Remember Mets 102's two pieces of Tisha B'Hav (sp?) and take that very very seriously, as a world view in his very bones.

                They did not come to this wanting to find themselves defending not just Israel, but white phosphorus on civilians, awful settlers their own would not tolerate acting like that even as these who are their own do it anyway in Hebron and other places as a 'price tag', and a dream of going home to Judea and Samaria that did not include ousting millions of people by force and a guile they wouldn't like if it were done here,  to do it,  and a lot of other stuff. Their choice is to defend the site because, bad as it may be, it's their side, and that's where they come down, as some of us come down in other places.

                It's not a huge deal to turn a deafer ear to some of their nonsense, and once in a great while the donuts they love to throw by committee are actually earned,  but think about a bit of slack cut because there's a lot of hurt for them in this we don't give them credit for either.

                •  Christy... (5+ / 0-)

                  I know we don't agree on much, but Redruin is misrepresenting his case here.  He's HOS for many of us because we consider him an anti-Semitic troll.

                  This is discussed extensively throughout this diary:

                  http://www.dailykos.com/...
                  http://www.dailykos.com/...
                  http://www.dailykos.com/...
                  http://www.dailykos.com/...

                  •  Apparently someone thought I was disrespecting (0+ / 0-)

                    your two posts about Tisha B'hav. I was not, but rather pointing out however badly that there are things in this which are not normal DKos political chit chat and not even just IP political chitchat, and are deeply, even profoundly important to individual folk personally, which must be recognized, of which I took your two posts as an example.

                    •  It wasn't that... (3+ / 0-)

                      btw, it's Tisha B'Av, but that's an aside

                      What it was is that you were seemingly giving words of encouragement to Redruin without realizing that many of us are treating him as HOS because of his anti-Semitic comments, which I linked to and also gave you links to where they're specifically being discussed in this diary.

                      •  Actually no. Redruin is not somebody I follow. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Redruin

                        What I thought I was saying is that while there is a lot of truly zippy bashing which goes on among a cast of about thirty in IP threads, part of what the rest of us need to remember is that there are levels of pain and hurt here in this whole mess for some of the commenters, especially on the Proudly Pro IP side, which I at least think are currently being dealt with by a possibly illogical and very possibly mournful determination of how in the end a poster must for his or her own soul come down in faithful loyalty, not basically a logical or intellectual process or one alone, whatever he or she may or may not like about the details of this or that little piece of the big problem, with posting accordingly. And a measure of space must be allotted for  respect for that dilemma, no matter how mad some of the comments make us or how frustrated. Not all of them Pro I IP, but certainly the ones I was thinking about when typing this particular comment.

                        And no matter the frustration, some of the donuts were well earned. Some.

                        I may be wrong, but I thought my response to Redruin was that he had eight donuts already and since the site kept getting longer than I could get it read, he was already dead on that comment and a ninth wouldn't kill him any deader and I might need the donuts for something else singled out correctly as donut worthy by someone, such as you, who will be donut free until midnight. I am having trouble with some of the donuts because I can go up fifty comments from the announced donut and not figure out who got it.

                        As a stylistic matter may I suggest using at least a name reference so the donut can be understood as applying to somebody in particular. If the offender is one done at a particular time but not another, perhaps add that.

                        I took Hebrew in Seminary,(M.Div., 1989) but we didn't do English transliteration, and the newest material there was about 200 BCE. Sorry about the spelling of the memorial holiday.

                        But there is a problem here of expanding the scope of 'anti semitic' to cover a lot of things I don't think it covers at the donut or HOS level.

                        And it does seem in the past days that the width of 'anti semitic' is growing as a charge to be flung over matters which are the subject of legitimate disagreement, as if to shut down conversation. Can't say this, it's antisemitic. Can't say that, it's antisemitic, etc. when the term wasn't being used for similar conversations just a few weeks ago and sometimes the connection stated is an abuse of the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon reasoning process, at least to me. As a way of shutting down comments where the issue is disagreement, by using a bomb of a charge that should, I suppose, end discussion entirely. Finding things that make a certain speaker unacceptable and then pounding on them over and over whether or not on topic, because of the exclusionary intent, to shut that one down, who usually won't be shut down. You don't have to deal with whatever s/he actually said because s/he is an HOS POS.  Just because a subgroup of IP is prepared to do that doesn't mean it's correct. One of the things the overuse does is to insult folk in a way that lessens their ability to listen to your other arguments.

          •  no, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            valadon

            this has specifically happened in this case.

            I can't find the link, but the poll was damning.

            Listen to Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions. (mp3!)

            by borkitekt on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 10:59:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Seriously? (12+ / 0-)

        The polls show it very clearly (for a good round-up see, e.g., Finkelstein's This Time We Went Too Far), as does the state of public discourse about the topic, which has radically shifted from what it was only a few years ago.

        What you're doing is focusing on those polls that test vague, meaningless notions like "sympathy for" or "support for" "Israel". They don't tell us much, because as polls show, most of those who say they "support Israel" also oppose the occupation, oppose the settlements and want the US to play an "evenhanded role" in the conflict.

        •  What polls? Where? (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          greatdarkspot, MBNYC, volleyboy1, Mets102

          Where is this radical shift?  Why would you ignore all of the public polls that have been released?

          February 24, 2010

          Support for Israel in U.S. at 63%, Near Record High
          Near-record-low 30% optimistic about Arab-Israeli peace

          by Lydia Saad

          PRINCETON, NJ -- For the first time since 1991, more than 6 in 10 Americans -- 63% -- say their sympathies in the Middle East situation lie more with the Israelis than with the Palestinians. Fifteen percent side more with the Palestinians, down slightly from recent years, while a combined 23% favor both sides, favor neither side, or have no opinion.

          (Gallup)

          •  Well, to be fair, while I think the Luntz poll (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            weasel, capelza, MBNYC, volleyboy1, Mets102

            appears to be flotilla-specific, and not indicative of overall trends, the data you're citing is five months old.

            •  Right, but he's talking about a broader period (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              greatdarkspot, volleyboy1

              The polls show it very clearly (for a good round-up see, e.g., Finkelstein's This Time We Went Too Far), as does the state of public discourse about the topic, which has radically shifted from what it was only a few years ago.

              Finklestein's book was published before the Flotilla.  I'm asking where these polls showing a "radical shift" are.  They don't seem to exist in any of the polling databases I've seen (such as the Polling Report I linked to above).

              The Luntz poll is tough to gather anything from without knowing what the questions were or who conducted the poll.

              •  No, there is no evidence of a radical shift (4+ / 0-)

                There may, in fact, be such a shift, but there's no evidence of it. A poll in the wake of the flotilla incident, and specific to that incident isn't going to prove anything about any kind of shift. Moreover, a polemicist like Finkelstein requires being taken with a rather large grain of salt. Dershowitz can present his own interpretation of statistics as well, but only a fool would take him at his word.

                Still, a Gallup poll from February would have gotten a little stale by now.

                •  But there is evidence of no radical shift (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  volleyboy1

                  The Polling Report I linked to above has at least three polls more recent than the Gallup poll, and none show any evidence of a radical shift.

                  Still, a Gallup poll from February would have gotten a little stale by now.

                  It's not the data from February that refutes Heathlander's claims.  Rather, it's the chart from Gallup showing how public opinion has changed from 1988 through 2010 that undermines the point he was attempting to make.  

                  •  No, I know there's no evidence of a radical shift (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    volleyboy1, Mets102

                    And Heathlander presents no data in support of his position. I just think the previous Gallup polls may show historical trends, but that's about it.

                    •  Right (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      volleyboy1

                      Which is all I was citing it for.

                    •  But weasel says there's a shift in the discussion (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      weasel, Mets102

                      that must be the empirical data....

                      All this is interesting because the Arab League agrees in principle to direct Israeli-Palestinian talks

                      The Arab League has agreed in principle to endorse direct peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, as long as the Palestinians agree to hold them, the Qatari prime minister said on Thursday.

                      Asked whether the league would back direct talks, Hamad bin Jassim said: "Of course, there is agreement, but agreement over the principles of what will be discussed and the manner of the direct negotiations."

                      It would be up to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to decide whether to hold talks, based on whatever conditions he sees fit, Jassim said.

                      Jassim added that he was "full of doubts" about Israel's seriousness regarding final status negotiations.

                      "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                      by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 09:44:27 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yup (5+ / 0-)

                        There is indeed empirical data.  See the Luntz poll on the flotilla.  Also see the detailed polls during the Gaza invasion.  Most DEMOCRATS were against the invasion.  Again, as I keep saying, the chocolate-v-vanilla responses don't change (because 95% of Americans don't really care much about Israel or Palestine), but the detailed issue-specific questions are indeed changing.

                        As for the article, yes that is an interesting story.  The Arab League did what they could.  As I said a few days ago, Abbas can dodge and delay for a while, but ultimately if Israel and the US demand that he do face-to-face talks, he must agree.  He can't resist those who control his funding forever.

                        Thus, the Arab League gave him a little cover, saying it was Abbas' decision, but they couldn't do more than that because if they had simply said "no" to direct talks, it would have severely embarrassed Abbas next week when he is forced to acceed to talks.

                        "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

                        by weasel on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 09:51:34 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  today's Israeli papers say that Hamas gave (0+ / 0-)

                        comments to the PA on what goes next. It may not be the way anyone thought they would get into it but . . . by george. Ain't that something.

                        Of course it would help if the Israeli papers weren't busilly telegraphing everything they THINK the I government will say, these demands are impossible, the first thing to be discussed will be X with nothing until that is settled,  showing proposed borders not to PA which has asked about them but to Egypt, and so on and on

            •  This is one of (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JNEREBEL, psychodrew, volleyboy1, Mets102

              the big shticks of the 'pro-Palestinian' brigade here: that U.S. public opinion is shifting towards the more radical anti-Zionist views that don't even hold sway in Europe.

              And if you say, "well, where's the empirical evidence of that?", they sputter some qualitative arguments about op-eds - usually Peter Beinart's recent piece in NYRB - while trying to push the actual quantitative research that's actually relevant to the question somewhere off to the side.

              It's faintly amusing, but also dishonest.

              Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

              by MBNYC on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 02:26:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  FEBRUARY? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SadieB, valadon

            LOL!  Got anything less antique to share?

            Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

            by Celtic Merlin on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 09:48:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Did you read what I was responding to? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              volleyboy1, Mets102

              The polls show it very clearly (for a good round-up see, e.g., Finkelstein's This Time We Went Too Far), as does the state of public discourse about the topic, which has radically shifted from what it was only a few years ago.

              The Gallup poll I linked to shows that, if anything, Americans have become even more supportive of Israel over the past few years.  

              It points out the absurdity of Heathlander and Finkelstein's claims of a "radical shift" over the past few years.

              •  You mean that one poll from FEBRUARY? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                valadon, callmecassandra

                How quaint.  How ancient.  How irrelevant.

                Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                by Celtic Merlin on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 10:33:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, silly. It's the trends. (0+ / 0-)

                  The trends that run the opposite way that Heathlander and Finkelstein claim they run.

                  Some of mindlessly cheerlead Frank Luntz polls and anonymous comments to Newsweek's web site, while others of us engage in thoughtful discourse.  It's clear which side you've chosen.

                  •  Yes, calling me "silly" is thoughtful discourse. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    valadon

                    But I'm not gonna pull a "proud2b" and claim that you're trying to bully me off of the website with name-calling.  Now explain this to me:  When you decided to call me "silly", was that the "thoughtful" part or the "discourse" part?

                    The Newsweek comments aren't anonymous - there are names on them.

                    You mindlessly cheerlead some an irrelevant poll from way back in February - taken before Israel murdered unarmed humanitarian activists on the high seas, Bibi was exposed as they lying liar that he is, and other events which have changed the attitudes of Americans.

                    And that's what this diary is about - current American attitudes concerning the truth about what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians.

                    It's clear which side YOU'VE chosen.

                    Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                    by Celtic Merlin on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:21:37 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I responded to a specific comment (0+ / 0-)

                      I refuted the claim made in that specific comment.  The comment was about claims made in a book that was published before the flotilla raid.

                      You have made no attempt to support the comment I replied to or explain how my refutation of said comment is off base.

                      •  Really??? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        valadon

                        And what about that "silly" thing?  Is that the "thoughtful" part or the "discourse" part?

                        Or, are you just trying to bully pro-Palestinian people off of the website?

                        Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                        by Celtic Merlin on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:00:53 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You're not making any sense (0+ / 0-)

                          I called you silly because you're being silly.  Then, I explained to you why you're being silly.  

                          You now seem to understand that I was responding to a comment and not to the diary.  Sadly, you'd rather accuse me of bullying than admit that you ignorantly made a comment regarding an exchange you had not read.

                          I have no idea what your fascination with bullies is about, nor do I care.

                          •  MORE name-calling? (0+ / 0-)

                            Now I'm senseless?
                            AND I'm ignorant?

                            I'm afraid that I'm going to have to report you to "proud2bliberal" - the knower and decider of all things which pertain to bullying of people.  Perhaps you'd have some clue about that bullying idea if you'd read any more than the one comment to which you responded with data from some pre-historic poll.

                            I most certainly did not "ignorantly made a comment regarding an exchange you had not read."

                            I read the exchange.  In fact, it seems that I've read more of the comments under this diary than have you.  Hence your mystification over why I'm asking about bullies.  Your comment - ITSELF - is that to which I was responding.  The one with the geriatric data about how universally loved is Israel in America.

                            Now, about the name-calling with terms like "silly" and "no sense" and "ignorant":  Is calling me such things the "thoughtful" part of this or the "discourse" part?  You can be honest.  Go ahead.  Try it.  I've only asked about this, what, 3 times now?  Have I used such derogatory terms on you?  No, I have not.  So how about a response to this after long last - "thoughtful" or "discourse"?  Or is it both?

                            Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                            by Celtic Merlin on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 01:40:55 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You are, again, mistaken (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            RedPencil

                            Note, I'm not saying you were a mistake...

                          •  Well then . . . (0+ / 0-)

                            So much for "thoughtful discourse" huh?

                            Thanks for playing.

                            Good day.

                            Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                            by Celtic Merlin on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 01:53:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  This is KOS. Kos does evidence. And anyone who (0+ / 0-)

                    claims that the predominant or majority of IP dialog here is 'thoughtful discourse' needs to go read MB's comments again. Trends are proven by evidence.

              •  What I actually said (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sofia, Eiron, blueness, Terra Mystica

                is that there has been a radical shift in "public discourse about the topic", which is obvious to anyone who glances at a New York Times occasionally.

                •  "The polls show it very clearly" (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  volleyboy1, Mets102

                  I'll ask again:

                  What polls?  Where?

                  •  You mean the poll you cited (0+ / 0-)

                    that shows a dramatic difference between Democratic and Republican support for Israel, whatever that term means?  Or a decrease in Democratic support?

                    •  The discussion was about the American public (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      thebluecrayon, volleyboy1, Mets102

                      But nice attempt to move the goalposts.  And it's not "support for Israel," it's whether the respondents' sympathies were more with the Israelis or the Palestinians.  

                      Anyways, from the Gallup link:

                      Over the last five years, support for Israel has increased slightly among Republicans (rising from about 77% for each of the past several years to 85% today) and independents, but has stayed roughly the same among Democrats. Since 2001, however, there has been a more dramatic shift in partisan attitudes: a 25-point increase in sympathy for Israel among Republicans and an 18-point increase among independents. Even on this longer-term basis, support for Israel among Democrats has been relatively flat.

                      So, the views of Democrats have remained unchanged since about 1989.  Where's that shift in public opinion we were talkin about, again?

                      •  I was paraphrasing, but you're right (0+ / 0-)

                        about the language.  As for shifts in public opinion, from that same poll:

                        However, current favorability toward Israel is similar to where it has been for the last several years, and favorability toward the Palestinians is on the high end of the range since 2000.

                        •  So you're now abandoning the Dem argument? (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          volleyboy1, Mets102

                          And your new argument is that favorability towards the PA being the same (actually a bit below) as it was in 2000 is the polls "very clearly showing" a shift in public opinion?

                          The fact remains that polls do not show any real shift in American public opinion against Israel.  

                          •  Not in the least bit. (0+ / 0-)

                            Your own quote demonstrates that shift in public opinion: that it is increasingly Republicans and independents who feel sympathy for Israel, whatever that means.  And, given that the poll was taken in February, well before Israel's attack on the Gaza flotilla, those numbers could well have shifted.  As a much more specific question demonstrated, "public opinion" is in part a reflection of the question that is asked:

                            As you may know, Israel recently acted to blockade ships bringing aid to Palestine, citing security concerns. Do you support or oppose Israel's actions?"

                            Favor Oppose Unsure
                            % % %
                            6/10-13/10 40 40 20

                          •  So public opinion was shifting toward Israel? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102

                            Does that mean you think Heathlander (and Finkelstein, I guess, though I don't know what he actually wrote) was wrong to say that polls clearly showed a shift in public support away from Israel?

                            It sure sounds like you agree with that, which is all I was saying.  

                          •  Huh? (3+ / 0-)

                            How does a poll showing that 40% of Americans polled oppose Israeli actions toward the Gaza flotilla translate into what you said?  But, just for the record, here's a CNN poll, March 19-21, 2010. N=1,030 adults nationwide:

                            "Do you consider Israel an ally of the United States, friendly but not an ally, unfriendly towards the U.S., or an enemy of the United States?"

                            Ally Friendly Unfriendly Enemy Unsure
                            % % % % %

                            3/19-21/10 39 41 12 5 4

                            12/15-17/06 42 39 8 5 6

                            8/2-3/06 49 33 6 4 7

                            So there's a big shift in 4 years away from the perception of Israel as an ally and toward a perception of Israel as friendly.  Now friendly is still good, but it's a real difference from ally.  Never mind a significant increase in a perception of Israel as unfriendly.  I wouldn't call that a shift toward support of Israel.

                            Here'sa study of young American Jewish attitudes toward Israel, which states in part:

                            That each age group is less Israel-attached than its elders suggests that we are in the midst of a long-term and ongoing decline in Israel attachment.

                            So yes, I would say that there's a shift going on.  Whether it's long-term or not, obviously only time will tell.

              •  How do you factor the Christian Rapturist segment (0+ / 0-)

                of opinion in that, a 'support' which only seeks to get the Third Temple built to hasten the return of Christ, not for any good it might do . . .  they would use the word Jews. That was not anywhere near so big a deal a few years back either, and that one is not, definitely not, pursued out of love or respect for Jews, only for the interpretation of what they consider prophecy. This segment is not a small US number.

        •  Polls are lagging indicator in this instance (8+ / 0-)

          I suspect the polls are a lagging indicator on Israel, because Israel is extremely important to a very small group of people, heavily discussed among experts and policy makers, but generally not given a single moment of thought by the vast majority of the American population.

          I've seen a real shift in the public discourse on Israel lately, with policy makers speaking out, with journalists and opinionists finally fed up with Israel's never-ending campaigns against the Palestinians, with Bibi's arrogance, with the clumsy brutality of the flotilla raids and other actions.

          I think this shift in the discourse presages a shift in the polls.  Thus, the larger-scale, simplistic questions (Do you feel more sympathy with the English-speaking, Westernized Israelis or the suspicious, Arab, Muslim Palestinians?) probably will not show much movement yet, but the deeper Luntzian questions (Does the Israeli attack on the flotilla or the constant claims that Gaza is peachy make you feel more or less pro-Israel) are showing movement.

          "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

          by weasel on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 09:11:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  "More negative" is not the problem of an (0+ / 0-)

      attitude adjustment in the US and elsewhere. The problem is more nearly a more modulated and maturing attitude rather than the blanket acceptance of Israel and all they knew about what it did, which was not so much, but they did believe it once.

      And it was wrapped, IMO in the good, decent, moral, ethical and clever image they have of all of the Diaspora folk they know, the ones in the Civil Rights marches and the other justice issues, the people who brought decency and common sense to political issues, in Diaspora locations. Hebrew National commercials that people smile at. Yiddish jokes done badly by people who don't speak Yiddish. That overwhelming sense of goodness and decency, learned here from people here, and applied like a coat of paint to all those there. Israel was the nice and safe and sunny place that had beaches sort of where Grandpa Somethingwitz (first cousin to Grandfather O'Something and Grandfather McSomething) and Grandma could go for retirement that was nice and had their traditions in it without as much work to do them there as here, wasn't that nice? when 'wasn't that nice' was not snide.  A huge pool of shapeless good will, that was the first and most important layer for a very long time on any US civilian view of Israel or the doings of anyone there. People who really, really wanted Israel to be that well functioning democracy where progressive social ideas in fact walked the streets, and there was also room for traditional folk. A GOOD place to be. WHere evil and immoral things didn't happen.

      Until now. Now people are looking a lot more at the details, and the smaller incidents, and see a bit of difference between those they have themselves encountered in culture and for whom they have respect if not  respect and affection and a whole lot more, and the politicians of Israel, saying what they say and doing what they do, and the commenters on the newspapers whose opinions were formerly inaccessible to Americans. All of which latter feels very different.

      They are seeing and affected by a much wider spectrum of events, and of reporting and video and written material not available before, and the way they deal with those is personal to each, but does not fit the old mold, not at all. And comparing ME events to things which happened in the US and other places for which views have also changed and which genuinely seem comparable in a way nobody thought before the Civil Rights movement got so much social rethinking going.  Some are wildly disappointed at current Israeli society and politics, something which really should have been so much better and is now such a mess. Some see other things. But the criticism is part of the new mix, that no amount of quibbling about, say, those photographs of settlers a few days ago pulling on and kicking a woman in Musliam veils and scarf, or the ones with weapons, or the video of teh bulldozing of the town, which may have been old to Mets or Red Sox but were new to others who hadn't lived in certain situations, cannot touch.

      Then you add to that all of the splashy events so many here have been disagreeing about for some time, including the flotillas, Cast Lead and Goldstone and the like. And for the first and most serious time we are also hearing substantial international criticism and going to read it and see what it says,and think about that because the Brits or the French or Angela Merkel are not crazy people.

      It's not negative but newly more elaborated with details and new reasoning and comparisons, and from time to time perceptive, and very disturbing to some, although for some the change is almost heartbreak. People here would looooove Bibi to get a peace deal genuinely right for all sides and which works, but at this moment in time few outside Israel think he can or really wants to do it. They would love to see the rabbis they know here dance for happy because Israel and those other guys actually got peace after all all all the troubles, but aren't keeping the porchlight on for that to happen, especially after the conversion fight became known. And that also doubles down like today's story of the Jewish girl from Detroit who can't get married in Israel because she's not Jewish enough, or can't prove it. Or all of the attack stories on how stupid O is or how manipulable or . . . . not the way you treat somebody you call an ally rather than just a tool. That kind of little stuff adds up. And there are NO secrets on the internet these days, no way to keep that out of American and other non Israeli ears, and thoughts.

      The real question now is whether Israel itself can, and whether its more or less unconditional supporters can, grow into a position where what it does, not what it wants people to believe, governs the reception it gets, and it learns to deal with and not reject that and not to keep doubling down on bad ideas because it sees all criticism as attacks or worse, as antisemitism uttered not because what they did was wrong but because it was done by  Isr . . . by Jews.  

  •  too bad congress is beholden to special interest (6+ / 0-)

    groups that want war and occupation....

    instead of supporting human rights and justice... their minds are like spreadsheets calculating for potential donors like what they might receive for signing the rightwing letters or supporting the aipac bills... or calculating what their opponents might get if they don't tow the line.

    not that this is out of the ordinary... their minds worked likes spreadsheets when it came time to help insurance companies and protect their profits in health care as well.

    Free Bradley Manning!

    by Tom J on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 08:03:55 AM PDT

    •  Have you seen these two articles on Ha'aretz? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      weasel, Terra Mystica

      The first article reveals that support for Israel remain strong only with Republicans and Hagee's movement. There's still many Democrats, and even Progressives, who find some issue to support Israel's government.

      (Scroll down for the YouTube video piece.)
      http://www.haaretz.com/...

      The second article reports on Israel's not opening up its 50-year old archive of classified military secrets because it could raise further questions and do a great deal of damage Israel's land claims still revealing how Israel razed Palestinians villages such as Deir Yassin back then and Bedouin villages now.
      http://www.haaretz.com/...

  •  Attack boycott, ignore blockade? (10+ / 0-)

    Incredibly, Weisberg's piece in Newsweek doesn't use the word "blockade" once.  Ignoring the primary reason behind a proposed boycott, we get this:

    Boycotters are not trying to send the specific message, "We object to your settlement policy in the West Bank." What they’re saying is, "We consider your country so intrinsically reprehensible that we are going to treat all of your citizens as pariahs."

    So how is it up to Weisberg to frame the true message of the boycotters?  How Luntzian.  Weisberg's strategy is common- portray all criticism/protest against Israeli policies an attack against the very core of Israel.  This style of defensiveness only hurts Israel.  Supporting Israel's disastrous policies is no way to secure its future.

  •  "New Yorker" has a profile of Sen. Schumer (13+ / 0-)

    by Jeffrey Toobin this week.  It includes the following paragraph on this third-ranking Democrat in the Senate:

    Indeed, like many in the conservative wing of the Republican Party, Schumer is a reflexive supporter of the Israeli government, including after its recent assault on the Turkish aid flotilla to Gaza.  He also supported the Iraq War.

    Toobin doesn't mention Schumer's speech to the Orthodox Union in D.C. last month, after the flotilla massacre: Chuck Schumer On Gaza: 'Strangle' Them Economically:

    This past Wednesday, Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY) delivered a wide-ranging speech at an Orthodox Union event in Washington, D.C. The senator's lecture touched on areas such as Iran's nuclear program, the Israel-Palestinian conflict, and several domestic policy issues.

    During one point of his speech, Schumer turned his attention to the situation in Gaza. He told the audience that the "Palestinian people still don't believe in the Jewish state, in a two-state solution," and also that "they don't believe in the Torah, in David." He went on to say "you have to force them to say Israel is here to stay."

    New York's senior senator explained that the current Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip -- which is causing a humanitarian crisis there -- is not only justified because it keeps weapons out of the Palestinian territory, but also because it shows the Palestinians living there that "when there's some moderation and cooperation, they can have an economic advancement." Summing up his feelings, Schumer emphasized the need to "to strangle them economically until they see that's not the way to go, makes sense"

    Rep. Howard Berman (D-CA), the Chairman of the House Foreign Relations Committee, held a hearing yesterday that totally followed the neocon line on Turkey and the flotilla: Neo-con view (this time on Turkey) still heard loud and clear in Washington.

    You are right that Congress is where the problem is.

    The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

    by lysias on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 08:10:59 AM PDT

  •  Except for a small militant minority... (0+ / 0-)

    ...American have never really bought the Israeli propaganda about "defending" themselves. The American government... that's another story because the American government has nothing to do with the American people. For the American government, Israel can do no wrong.

    But there's a limit to how much crap you can sweep under the carpet without creating a bump you'll trip over one day and the bump is getting very big very fast.

    Watch documentaries on Democracy Now or on Link TV, and there are plenty of videos on YouTube too if you're interested, where you can see what the US taxpayer has so generously financed in the Middle East. They say, "friends don't let drunk friends drive" but we not only get Israel as drunk as a skunk, we also guide it into the driver seat of the fastest car available.

    •  Not really. For decades, most Americans did buy (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rusty Pipes, Terra Mystica, Alpha99

      the idea that Israel was a struggling nation of Holocaust survivors and humble religious Jews, trying to stay alive and build an idealistic labor-socialist democracy amid a sea of Arab hatred and militarism.

      And for a while, this, tho not the whole truth, was not outrageously false.  But the other side of the equations was glossed over by the picture of Ari Ben Canaan and by American media portrayals of Arabs generally as goat-fucking illiterate scum.

      And after 1967, it became clearer and clearer to me and slowly increasing numbers of Americans that Israel was stealing more and more Palestinian land and WATER, and making decisions that would soon force it to leave the path of democracy and revive the old Zionist idea of forced transfer, applying it in a more defensible form to those they had not  run out in 1948.  

      So, yes, now that Israel is a regional nuclear superpower, not seriously threatened by any of its neighbors, who nonetheless routinely abuses and invades the weaker of them and oppresses the populations of the territories it occupies (including Gaza under international law as it is understood everywhere except in Israel), the worm has begun to turn.

      It's about time.

      Their real God is money-- Jesus just drives the armored car, and his hat is made in China. © 2009 All Rights Reserved

      by oblomov on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 05:17:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  since no on in Gaza is starving to death (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    esquimaux

    I guess there should be concern about the 43% who think they are.  I wouldn't worry too much about a mass boycott of Israel.  If governments around the world are buying drone planes, what boycott is going to happen?

    •  Hamas is betraying its own people (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RobbyMcP, greatdarkspot, RedPencil

      That is the point.  When Israel withdrew from Gaza, Hamas used its money for a military buildup rather than for peaceful community development.  Hamas has the power to end any blockade this week.  It has to stop the arms smuggling and the rocket attacks and it has to return Shalit.  Both sides are equally responsible for the blockade.

    •  I would think about tourists to start with, esp (0+ / 0-)

      after the site of the baptism in the Jordan has now turned up as being too polluted for pilgrims even to use. I would also think about technology, which is an industry where the hot spot makes only short landings, with India  and other places beckoning to be the next one. And goods shipments which cannot be unloaded, and planes which may not be permitted to land and . . . .

      The thing about a boycott is that it is a tool of the numerically many but individually powerless save for money, to put their two cents in where with enough others it can do damage even if their COngresscritters or the local equivalent are deaf. And it did work for the South African situation. Took a few years, but it was one of the biggies that forced change.

  •  Boycotting Israel would only help the right wing (0+ / 0-)

    Boycotting the Israeli economy would only help the right wing religious extremists, as the economy of medical devices, irrigation and alternative energy there is where their equivalent of the Democrats and progressives are.  

  •  Why do Christians love Israel? (0+ / 0-)

  •  What Americans see: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greatdarkspot, jhecht
    1.  The PA in the West Bank refusing to negotiate and just plain demanding too much, and that the PA is controlled by a very weak Fatah.
    1.  Gaza controlled by Hamas, a terrorist organization dedicated to Israel's destruction.
    1.  Hezbollah amassing weapons in southern Lebanon and its people indicted in the killing of Hariri.

    Americans see that if they don't support Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran will be the winners, not the civilians of Gaza.

    Americans won't abandon support for Israel unless they can see a better alternative on the horizon, rather than war and possibly losing control of the middle east to people they see as the bad guys.

  •  How do you boycott Israel? (6+ / 0-)

    I'm Jewish but I don't own a single thing made in Israel. I don't see any Israeli made products in the stores. Even the stuff I buy from the Kosher section of the supermarket is made in Brooklyn or New Jersey. I'm not planning on buying a missile defense system anytime soon, so I'm kind of confused about how we make this work.

    I'm not worried about your state of mind, 'cause, you're not the revolutionary kind - Gomez

    by jhecht on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 08:24:11 AM PDT

  •  Do You Support the Hamas Charter? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greatdarkspot, RedPencil, volleyboy1

    Hamas Principles
    The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

    "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

    "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

    "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

    "After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

    The charter is a rather classical Islamist document, applied to the local issues. It declares that Jihad (in the sense of armed battle) is the only solution. It cites the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a ludicrous anti-Semitic forgery.

    The "Zionists" and the freemasons and others are blamed for what Hamas and radical Islamists see as the major calamities of the world, especially the French Revolution.

    One of the most ominous aspects of the Charter however, is this Hadith:

    Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

    "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree,  would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

    The implication is clear: Allah promised that the Jews will be murdered, and the Hamas "aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take."

    Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood
    Some observers deny the relation between the Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. However, the Charter states:

    The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine. Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times. It is characterised by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgement, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam.

    Moreover, the Charter quotes Hassan Al-Banna, a Nazi sympathizer who founded the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. There is no doubt that the Hamas views itself as a part of the Muslim Brotherhood and an ideological heir of al Banna. The Muslim Brotherhood spawned a number of radical Islamist movements including Al-Qaeda.  

    Current Hamas Positions
    Some analysts insist that the Hamas is becoming more pragmatic in its ideology following assumption of a political role. The evidence for this is view is conflicting, and it is beclouded by the practice of dissemblance that was copied from  Al-Banna and Sayyed Qutb. Recent statements by leaders include the following:

    Imam Yousif al-Zahar of Hamas said in his sermon at the Katib Wilayat mosque in Gaza that "Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing." Ref IHT 1 April 08
    Sheik Yunus al-Astal, a Hamas legislator and imam, in a column in the weekly newspaper Al Risalah in 2008 discussed a Koranic verse suggesting that "suffering by fire is the Jews' destiny in this world and the next." Astal concluded "Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews.Ref IHT 1 April 08
    "We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity" stated Hamas leader Fathi Hammad in Gaza on Friday January 2nd 2009 - ref -- BBC 2 January 09
     
    In a sermon aired on Hamas' Al-Aqsa television, cleric Yunis Al Astal stated, "Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam.
    "I believe that our children, or our grandchildren, will inherit our jihad and our sacrifices, and, Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them"

  •  And now a real poll (5+ / 0-)

    http://www.gallup.com/...

    Thanks for asking.

    harps and angels! harps and angels!

    by zemblan on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 08:35:22 AM PDT

    •  "Real" meaning (11+ / 0-)

      that it reaches the conclusions you want.  I note your poll is from "February 24, 2010."  Happily, nothing has happened since then, so we can be certain it is perfectly accurate.  

      "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

      by weasel on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 08:44:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  When you say nothing, (9+ / 0-)

        you mean the humiliation of President Obama and Vice-President Biden, General Petraeus' remarks about the unresolved conflict being a danger to our interests, the revelation that Netanyahu deliberately torpedoed Oslo and feels he can move America at will, the cultural boycotts by Elvis Costello, the Pixies and others, and  the Flotilla raid, right?

        A guilty conscience never feels secure.

        by Flyswatterbanjo on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 08:49:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  some other examples of nothing (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          greatdarkspot, zemblan

          Elton John singing away in Tel Aviv.  Women's Israeli volleyball team playing in Turkey with only 100 protestors outside and Abbas showing the bold and courage to not sit across the table from Netanyahu.  Apparently, indirect talks are better than direct talks.  Ask the Koreans about that one.

        •  No, I think he means (0+ / 0-)

          the humiliation of President Obama by the Palestinian Authority refusing Obama's demand that they enter into serious direct negotiations over a peace agreement with Israel.

          •  All of these (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            capelza

            are good reasons to doubt a February poll has any relevance.  But if you think that Abbas has the power to humiliate ANYONE besides himself, you are sadly ignorant.  

            "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

            by weasel on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 09:17:04 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  O is a Chi politician. It takes a helluva lot (0+ / 0-)

            more than that to humiliate him when he has his objective in his sights, and knows the cussout vocabularies and tactics of both sides. He has determined he will do his Chi best to get these crazies to the bargaining table and get that deal made, and not quit until they are done or he is. It's a lot more insulting the things that Bibi has said in the papers about manipulation and such, very public that, and that hasn't stopped O from pushing and having his team push either. A lot of folk thought he was an academic and a too polite stuff, and a lot of them have tire tracks across the bridges of their noses right now, with more to come.

        •  It's been years since I was in the business of (6+ / 0-)

          voter data, but somehow I don't see Elvis Costello doing much to move US opinion on Israel.

          •  Right (0+ / 0-)

            One can always remind people how he likes to throw around the 'n' word.

            •  Let's put the smear (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lysias

              machine on Elvis, clearly a crypto hater of some kind.  Run with it.  It worked on Desmond Tutu, didn't it?

              Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

              by Eiron on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 09:47:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm a fan (0+ / 0-)

                I've got a bunch of Elvis' CD's and I love his music, but he's not my idea of a role model or someone whose political opinions matter.  And he did say those things and seemed rather unrepentant about it.

                •  Did he make a statement (0+ / 0-)

                  on his decision not to perform?  Not sure if I saw it.

                  Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                  by Eiron on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 09:55:37 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Eiron, Terra Mystica

                    This is what it said on his Website:

                    It Is After Considerable Contemplation....

                    It is after considerable contemplation that I have lately arrived at the decision that I must withdraw from the two performances scheduled in Israel on the 30th of June and the 1st of July.

                    One lives in hope that music is more than mere noise, filling up idle time, whether intending to elate or lament.

                    Then there are occasions when merely having your name added to a concert schedule may be interpreted as a political act that resonates more than anything that might be sung and it may be assumed that one has no mind for the suffering of the innocent.

                    I must believe that the audience for the coming concerts would have contained many people who question the policies of their government on settlement and deplore conditions that visit intimidation, humiliation or much worse on Palestinian civilians in the name of national security.

                    I am also keenly aware of the sensitivity of these themes in the wake of so many despicable acts of violence perpetrated in the name of liberation.

                    Some will regard all of this an unknowable without personal experience but if these subjects are actually too grave and complex to be addressed in a concert, then it is also quite impossible to simply look the other way.

                    I offer my sincere apologies for any disappointment to the advance ticket holders as well as to the organizers.

                    My thanks also go to the members of the Israeli media with whom I had most rewarding and illuminating conversations. They may regard these exchanges as a waste of their time but they were of great value and help to me in gaining an appreciation of the cultural scene.

                    I hope it is possible to understand that I am not taking this decision lightly or so I may stand beneath any banner, nor is it one in which I imagine myself to possess any unique or eternal truth.

                    It is a matter of instinct and conscience.

                    It has been necessary to dial out the falsehoods of propaganda, the double game and hysterical language of politics, the vanity and self-righteousness of public communiqués from cranks in order to eventually sift through my own conflicted thoughts.

                    I have come to the following conclusions.

                    One must at least consider any rational argument that comes before the appeal of more desperate means.

                    Sometimes a silence in music is better than adding to the static and so an end to it.

                    I cannot imagine receiving another invitation to perform in Israel, which is a matter of regret but I can imagine a better time when I would not be writing this.

                    With the hope for peace and understanding. Elvis Costello

                    •  Thoughtfully (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      weasel, Terra Mystica

                      and gracefully stated, I think.  Classy guy.

                      Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                      by Eiron on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 10:01:07 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I really (0+ / 0-)

                        I really have no problems with what he said.  Were I a musician, there would be some countries I would not be comfortable performing in, either.  But at the end of the day, I don't find his opinion all that valuable especially given his unfortunate history of racist comments.

                        •  Oh, from the guy that throws around "slut"? (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Eiron, Christy1947

                          You should pojnt out that Costello's very wrong use of the word that begins with "n" was once 31 years while in a drunken  argument , which he apologised publicly for a few days later.

                          You on the other hand casually threw around terms like slut and "mattress on her back"  just the other day, and drew a off the wall comparison about Meg Ryan of course being an "Arabist" because of her leaving Quaid for Crowe , the alleged abuser.

                          So your own "unfortunate" history is much more recent.

                          •  Perhaps (0+ / 0-)

                            But I'm also not holding myself up as an opinion leader, either.  Plus, Costello used that word in the lyrics to Oliver's Army as well.  And his apology wasn't much of one, either.  That was well reported at the time.

                          •  So then the lesson is to take cues from neither (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            greatdarkspot

                            party? I mean, Mel Gibson apologized too...

                          •  I don't take cues from celebrities period. (0+ / 0-)

                            But to talk about Costello's use of the word without context, that is, a one time event 31 years ago...while GDS's own really crappy languagew was not spoken in a drunken state, but in a diary on Kos, a couple of days ago.  It wasn't just a comment, or drunk posting, well maybe it was, but it isn't the only time that GDS went misogynistic and bigtoed,  but a diary.

                            So, when they have said, more than once in this diary, that Costello has a "history" of bigotry, he had to leave out the context to make his point.    

                            Again, 31 years ago.   Are you comparing that to Gibson?    That's not very subtle.

                            Just saying.

                            Plus, GDS,  again, is the guy who dismissed anything Meg Ryan had to say because she hooked up with an abuser, so of course she'd become an "Arabist"...

                            GDS is no one to throw stones, what with his big ole glass house.

      •  "Real" meaning not a self-selecting net poll. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        thebluecrayon, volleyboy1, Mets102

        Thanks for asking.

        harps and angels! harps and angels!

        by zemblan on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 09:26:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Is this the place? (0+ / 0-)

    One assumes this is the daily 'hate on Israel' diary? At least until Tom comes up with one, anyway.  There is no doubt that there is an increase in anti-Israeli feeling in some areas of the US intelligentsia.  I don't expect it to penetrate too far into the mainstream, though.  Israel has too many supporters among the opinion leaders (in the media, Hollywood celebs and politics - and no, I don't mean all Jews, either) and this sort of thing won't go unanswered.  There will be some effects - I'm sure that the blow back in Europe will be worse for them.  As frustrating as it might be for Israeli fans of Elvis Costello, I don't see a widespread boycott - McCartney was there last year or the year before, even.  It's usually been safety issues that have kept people away, actually.

    Those in the BDSM movement will have their successes - some left leaning universities and organizations may divest - but not enough to really effect things.  Israel's economy is reasonably strong and the moment and such moves will be mostly symbolic.   The UK Methodists doing so was obviously a point for their side, but I can't imagine the US Methodists following along.  Israel won't be isolated - she simply has too many friends.

  •  Tipped and Recommended. (6+ / 0-)

    This is a good diary.  It's well-sourced, clear, and is certainly not inflammatory.

    I like it!

    Yes, American attitudes are changing.  So are the attitudes of many in the rest of the western world.  People are waking up to the reality of what is happening in that region of the planet.  And that is a GOOD thing for everybody concerned.

    When the world can see a situation objectively and decide - based on naked fact - what needs to be done, the politicians have no choice but to do our bidding.  The problem is that big lag time between what we want and when they'll do it.

    But attitudes are changing and I'm happy about that.  As should everybody here be happy about that.  There's no down-side to ending this mess peacefully and in a way which is fair for all.

    Celtic Merlin
    Carlinist

    Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

    by Celtic Merlin on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 10:22:54 AM PDT

  •  Major Problem with this diary (6+ / 0-)

    You equate support for the existence of Israel with support of it's individual policies. For example your title states: "The jig is up, Americans not buying what Israel is selling". Then you cite the Luntz poll as proof of that. But you and your supporters fail in one critical place. Support for Israel and Support for certain policies are NOT one in the same. For instance, I support the existence of Israel in a way that you (seemingly) and all the BDS folk find intolerable. YET... I think the humanitarian crises in Gaza is horrible, Israel's blockade of humanitarian items is inhumane, and the actions against the flotilla was a sad, bungled tragedy. So I would answer questions in this the same way you would.

    Given that would you say my support for Israel is less

    "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

    by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 10:38:07 AM PDT

    •  Except that (9+ / 0-)

      They are clearly related, and once folks stop supporting the individual policies, then they start supporting Israel critically.  This means that instead of kneejerk support, you have a reasoned debate about what is best, and you can have actual actions and policy changes. And once you have policy changed, then a whole new world of opportunities to actually make some progress opens up.

      As for this:

      Given that would you say my support for Israel is less

      Of course not.  As you've repeatedly shown, your "liberalism" is void whenever it conflicts with your Zionism.  But I don't think the vast majority of Americans are so linked to Israel as you are.  

      "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

      by weasel on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 10:52:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well self congratulate yourself all you want (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JNEREBEL, thebluecrayon, Mets102

        I guess. Way to miss my point, but, hey no biggie.

        "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

        by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:03:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you miss your own biggest point, (6+ / 0-)

          which really is that support for policies changes vis a vis Israel has nothing to do with "support for the existence of Israel."  That's the part you are having trouble grappeling with in your own post, that the attempts to paint everyone as anti-semites/anti-Israel are utterly meaningless, since people can still be "pro-Israel" and support major policy shifts.  

          "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

          by weasel on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:06:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Umm yes people can (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JNEREBEL, thebluecrayon, Mets102

            be pro-Israel and support policy shifts. I advocate policy shifts...

            Now where did I say you were all anti-Semites... Oh wait... no where. You seem to love to pull statements out of your ass. Care to show me where I attempt to show everyone as anti-Semites/anti-Israel. I said BDS was anti-Israel... So I expect you have a quote somewhere.

            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:10:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Aunt Martha

              I did not say "your attempts", since the attempts to pain everyone as anti-semitic/anti-Israel go far beyond you.  But you've already listed the place in your own point where you do it.  Yes, I understand, you don't call EVERYONE anti-Israel, just those you who push changes in ways you disagree with.  Good distinction; thanks.  

              "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

              by weasel on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:15:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I disagree. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Terra Mystica

          You wrote about me:

          You equate support for the existence of Israel with support of it's individual policies. For example your title states: "The jig is up, Americans not buying what Israel is selling".

          Is Israel selling "the existence of Israel?" Not to my mind.

          Israel is selling the blockade of Gaza as self-defense.
          Israel is selling the savage 2009 war on Gaza as self-defense.
          Israel is selling itself as a valuable ally of the United States worthy of $3+ billion/year.
          Israel is selling the Flotilla raid as self-defense.
          Israel is selling the settlements as a civil rights issue FOR THE SETTLERS.
          Israel is selling itself as a Western-style democracy.

          That's what people aren't buying.

          A guilty conscience never feels secure.

          by Flyswatterbanjo on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 09:57:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I doubt most Americans understand.. (8+ / 0-)

        ....that Volley and other "liberal" Zionists are concerned with maintaining an overwhelming Jewish demographic majority behind the Green Line, in order to facilitate de fact ethnic supremacism, or as they call it, "Jewish self-determination," in "Israel proper."  

        If more Americans understood that promotion of ethnic homogeneity formed the basis of a consensus view among disparate Zionist groups, they probably wouldn't have a great deal of sympathy for the project.  After all, Americans in general reject it in principle even if we are more sloppy about opposing it in practice; perhaps this explains why the liberal Zionists are unable or unwilling to confront the issue of ethnic cleansing in the Negev, or to call it what it is.  They are not prepared to make an admission that would force them to become open advocates of ethnic cleansing and ethnocentrism, as some other (now largely banned) defenders of Israel were willing to do.

        "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

        by Alec82 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:17:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  HOLY SHIT!!! ALEC DISCOVERED OUR (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JNEREBEL, thebluecrayon, Mets102

          secretz... He knows we are for Ethnic supremacy.... we couldn't fool him. Drats foiled again.... </snark>

          Because "Jewish self-determinsm" and "Ethnic supremacy" are the same thing... If that is what you think... you are sad... just sad...

          "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:23:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Secret? (9+ / 0-)

            You say it openly on a daily basis, that Israel must remain a state controlled and dominated by Jews, but you want it to be democratic, so there must always be a Jewish majority.

            Do you ever stop to wonder why it is that your own views appear to make you so uncomfortable that you have to act out this way every time someone acknowledges what you say?

            "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

            by weasel on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:26:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  ummmm (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JNEREBEL, Red Sox, thebluecrayon, Mets102

              Do you ever stop to wonder why it is that your own views appear to make you so uncomfortable that you have to act out this way every time someone acknowledges what you say?

              I am not uncomfortable with my views. Alec accused me of being a proponent of Ethnic Supremacy. Can you show me a place where I have ever said "Jews are superior"? Please just point it out. Just because Alec or you pull something out of your ass to ascribe a term to me does not make you right. For the record I don't feel Jews are superior to anyone else. Thank you for giving me the forum to destroy that assinine point.

              You say it openly on a daily basis, that Israel must remain a state controlled and dominated by Jews, but you want it to be democratic, so there must always be a Jewish majority.

              As for this apparently reading and reading comprehension aren't your strong suit. What I said was Jews should be a majority behind the Green Line in a Jewish State in a Two State Solution. HOWEVER.. if they cannot maintain that demographic then I would favor majority rule. In the beginning though there would be no Palestinian Right of Return and Hoq' ha shvut would remain in effect for the peaceful state of Israel. If demography still changed the State after living in a full state of Peace than so be it - it wasn't meant to happen.

              As for Arab citizens of the new Israel... Full rights and obligations including the IDF. The only thing they wouldn't have is Hoq ha'shvut. That is it.

              So care to keep mischaracterizing me about Ethnic supremacy? Just curious.

              "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

              by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:37:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  this is (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                weasel, valadon, capelza, Alec82, soysauce

                kinda hilarious:

                The only thing they wouldn't have is Hoq ha'shvut. That is it.

                So care to keep mischaracterizing me about Ethnic supremacy? Just curious.

                And you really don't think you're believe Jews are entitled to more more rights, i.e., supremacy, than Arabs?? You just literally said they were in your comments. And now you're going to deny it yet again.

                •  Ummm you do understand (4+ / 0-)

                  why Israel exists right? You do realize it is not the U.S. nor was not set up to be the U.S?

                  Do you know what Hoq' ha shvut even is?

                  It is a basic refuge law not one built on supremacy you idiot. Jeez.

                  "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                  by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:55:59 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And many states have laws of return (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                    for those of the ethnicity that the state represents the self-determination of.

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                    •  Shhhh don't confuse them with facts... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      thebluecrayon, Mets102

                      Jeez what are you doing? Don't ruin their Faux News like attempts to smear an opponent. I mean they have to pull shit out of their asses as it is to smear - try not make it anymore difficult for them. I am concerned they might break a blood vessel. </snark>

                      "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                      by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:07:30 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Funny. (0+ / 0-)

                      All along I thought I was American.  Although I could actually reclaim German citizenship, since my mom was born there.

                      •  AND if Anti-Semitism ever hit (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Mets102

                        viral levels here you could go to Israel since you are Jewish.

                        "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                        by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:19:42 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Given that anti-semitism has not yet, (7+ / 0-)

                          in the entire history of this country, done that, I'll take my chances.  And furthermore, that still doesn't mean that I, as a Jew with no family ancestry in Israel, have more of a right to "return" there than do Palestinians who either were born there or have actual family ancestry there and for whom it really would be a return, with no quotation marks.

                          •  Bully for you (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, greatdarkspot, Mets102

                            then you shouldn't move there. And if Anti-Semitism goes viral here - you ahouldn't go there either. I mean you don't have any right too... right?

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 02:05:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  To quote you, fail. (6+ / 0-)

                            Whether or not anti-semitism goes viral here has nothing to do with a Jewish right of return to Israel.  And advocating for Jewish safety has nothing to do with a right of return to Israel either.

                            Return means something very specific.  I have no family ancestry in Israel, hence nothing to return to.  Soy has that right.  Unspeakable has that right.  But that's a completely different argument than arguing whether or not Jews should have a place where we can be safe in the highly unlikely event of your worst-case nightmare scenario.    

                          •  Oh and back at you - FAIL (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            greatdarkspot, Mets102

                            Take up your semantic argument with the people who named it Hoq' ha' shvut. I expect it is because we Jewish people can trace most of our common ancestory to that area. or.... were your ancestors dum, dum, dahhhhh - KHAZARS.....

                            See in real history those that were Jews were tossed out of that area nence the name Law of Return. I am surprised you wouldn't understand that term.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 02:58:59 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  When you have to start making allusions (4+ / 0-)

                            to anti-semitic tropes, then I know you've failed.

                            Of course, if you want to talk about "real history," then of course you know that Palestinians were tossed out of that area much more recently than Jews were.  And that, back in the ancient day, the Israelites tossed out other people who lived in that so that they could live there.  So perhaps we should find their descendents and give them the exclusive right of return.

                          •  Yes this is why I believe in Two States (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            so tell you what.. Keep hoping for One State, keep believing in it. It won't happen but good luck there. Let me know how all this works out for you.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 06:03:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You believe in two states because the Israelites (4+ / 0-)

                            kicked out the people who were there before them?  That's a pretty shaky argument and a completely arbitrary place to call a starting point.

                            As for whether or not one state will happen, thank you for telling me that it won't.  But since you're psychic, perhaps you can also tell me what lottery tickets to buy?

                          •  Buy Powerball (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            RedPencil, Mets102

                            and play 12 17 23 34 45 48 and 16. Oh yeah and One State has as much of a chance of those numbers winning. Good Luck!

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 10:03:54 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Really, this just pisses me off as a (6+ / 0-)

                          fellow minority in this country.

                          A whole lot of us have had to live with some pretty unspeakable crap from this country.  It only gets better, though, even in my lifetime.  To even think that Jews would be the target of some horror in this country and so Israel is needed "just in case"...really it is pretty offensive.   Yes, everyday, I can hear nasty things said about Native Americans..and we as a collective people still struggle with the effects of 500 years of accidental genocide, removal and theft of rights...

                          Seeing as people such as myself and in particular, African-Americans have faced the worst that America can dish out on a huge scale...and yet we aren't ready to bolt.  

                          The possibility of groups other than Jews having this country "go viral" is just as equal.   If anyone is a target right now, it is the Latinos.

                          Meh, I can't even  articulate this right.

                          I'll probably get HR'd for this, but iI just don't care.

                          •  It isn't even rational (5+ / 0-)

                            Just think about it for a moment.  How many Jews have been killed in Israel for being Jewish? And how many in the United States? The comparison in absolute numbers strongly suggests the fortress rationale is not empirically sound.

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 05:23:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This is narrow-minded bullshit. (5+ / 0-)

                            Tell that to the Yemini Jews who are fleeing to Israel now because of antisemitism in Yemen, in 2010.  

                            And tell that to the countless Israelis and their children and grandchildren who would have been murdered by Hitler if they had not had the good fortune and good sense to get the hell out of Europe before WW11.  

                            It is painful to recount my own family's history here, of all places, but maybe this will lend some credence to my viewpoint:  My Israeli relatives didn't leave behind a single person in Europe, not one child in our family was spared Hitler's ovens.  So really, the number of Jews who were saved could only be out-done by some dasteredly plan to destroy Israel that no one on DKos seems ready to consider as a realistic threat.  

                            Anyway, I doubt many Israelis, who enjoy living in the 8th happiest country in the world could care less what you think.

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 02:11:01 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  According to your logic (4+ / 0-)

                            we should look to Iraq:  How many Iraqis have been killed in Iraq?  How many have been killed elsewhere?  For that matter, how many Iraqis have been killed in the US???

                            Maybe we should just disband the country of Iraq, free them of their "fortress rationale", so they can all be safe in diaspora?

                            Slightly off topic, but...It's surprising to me that people who care so much about Arab lives (as I do) aren't posting day and night about the thousands and thousands of Iraqis who have been and continue to be killed by Americans.  Not by proxy, but directly by our hands and with our American guns.  

                            Is anyone boycotting those American gun manufacturers?

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 06:05:38 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, Terra Mystica

                            I am not arguing that Israel should be dissolved and Israeli Jews forced into a diaspora.  That would be your predictable spin, one that isn't supported by anything I have said, which was limited to criticism of the "safe haven" rationale.  

                            Since you cannot address what I say, you have to invent an argument I did not make.  I find it repugnant, but I guess I should not be surprised that you would sink to such abysmal distortions.  All for the cause, eh?

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 06:52:07 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Then go tell the Israelis (4+ / 0-)

                            that they should give up their safe haven fantasy.

                            You know better than they.

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 07:02:17 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I have no interest... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Terra Mystica

                            ...in telling Israelis to leave Israel.  I have made that clear so many times that I have no interest in stating so endlessly.  

                            Still, how many Israelis have voted with their feet and vacated the country for safer locations? A few hundred thousand, yes?  

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 07:09:35 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  He's read books about it. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            RedPencil, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            No he doesn't want Jews or Israelis to leave he just wants them to be a good minority and trust that everything will be ok. Heck, he is even willing to pass Anti-Discrimmination laws to make sure of it, because well.. we all know that laws can't be changed ever and that people once they agree to something will never go back on their word.

                            He is certain, that despite our long history of oppression those days are over and if not... people of good conscience will make sure they don't happen in Palestine. I mean history has proven..... oh wait a minute.... forget I ever said anything.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 08:05:30 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Right. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            (seeing this days later)

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 07:24:11 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Be as pissed off as you want (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            greatdarkspot, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            hurray for you.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 05:59:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Capelza (8+ / 0-)

                            I don't think anyone is trying to compete with Native Americans or any other group. There is no use in trying to compare the experiences of all or any of the oppressed and massacred populations of this sick world.  Each group has it's own history and destiny.  Clearly, there are groups in the US which suffer more in the US than the Jewish community.

                            But, it happens that Jews have been hunted down for abuse of all kinds for the entire span of our history, including forced conversions,  multiple mass expulsions from one country after another, being forced to live in ghettos (yes, the origin of the word lies within Jewish history)and being massacred by the millions.

                            I don't think that any "pro-I" poster here is taking a short-sighted view of Jewish history when formulating opinions about the need for an independent Jewish state.  No one looks short-term at past or future American Jewish history.  While the picture is rosy for Jews here in America today, taking the long view of 2000 years, that likely won't be the case forever.  

                            But for anyone to claim that Israel isn't necessary for Jews is as absurd as claiming that any other country on this planet really isn't necessary to its' people.  

                            Today, Jews fleeing antisemitism in Yemen and Sweden find a new home in Israel.  Where would they go, otherwise?

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 12:09:21 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Why first of all they would be welcome in (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            Palestine if there was a One State Solution or they could come to America just like the people on the St. Louis...... oh forget that point... sorry.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 08:08:47 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I am not talking about the Yemeni Jews or the (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Terra Mystica, Flyswatterbanjo

                            dissolution of Israel..I am talking specifically about the United States.  And citizens of this country.

                            The United States.   Nowhere did I say anything about anywhere else.  

                            To be told by some that not being a supporter of Israel in this country is something wrong.   And then to have some of those same people talk about some imagined in the future "viral" anti-Jewish thing...well I am trying to point out from the perspective of other minorities in this country that it is really not that attractive.    

                            It would be nice if we could have a safe homeland, too.  Because we, in what is now the United States have a lot better reason to fear some "viral" thing.   Remember, in my own lifetime, the government of the United States legally withdrew recognition with all that entails, of my people as well as many, many others.   Many of us have gotten it back, but if you want to live in that kind of paranoia in the United States, you should remember that also in my lifetime, I saw the "Whites only" signs and experienced the awfulness first hand.   And to this day,  still experience blatant and sometimes violent racism.   This includes African-Americans, American Indians and Native Alaskans,  as well as others...see the hatred for any American Muslim that pours out of certain circles and extra sadly, those eve suspected of being Muslim, like Sikhs or Indians (from India)...a friend, some 30 years ago, wore a T-shirt that said "I am Indian, not Iranian!", because he had been assaulted.

                            Really, I don't want a homeland.   I want to make this country better for everyone.   Because this is where I born, raised and live.

                            Over 200 years of actual slavery, and more than a hundred years of institutionalised racism for African Americans.   And for the original peoples of the Americas, the death of millions, the taking away of almost everything, massacres from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego.  

                            So...It is pretty ballsy to me to hear some talk about something that might happen sometime and so a homeland is needed (at the expense of the hundreds of thousands that already lived there) for those living in the Untied States.

                            Again, I am talking solely about the American citizens who feel this way about some "viral event" happening to them.

                          •  Or Muslims/Arabs. Not to diminish or deflect (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Rusty Pipes

                            from a great comment...

                            The possibility of groups other than Jews having this country "go viral" is just as equal.   If anyone is a target right now, it is the Latinos.

                            "Dega dega dega dega. Break up the concrete..." The Pretenders

                            by Terra Mystica on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 07:35:22 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  I happen to think that.. (5+ / 0-)

                      ....most of principles supporting those repatriation laws are as fictitious as Israel's, but importantly, in almost all cases it is based on the citizenship of a lineal ancestor, not on ethnicity.  That's the case with Italy and Ireland, for example, as well as other states.  So an Arab citizen of Ireland who had kids that left the country would be able to pass on the citizenship to his or her grandchildren and great-grandchildren, despite not being "ethnically Irish."  By contrast, that is not available (as far as I know) for Arab Israelis, while Jewish citizens of any country can become citizens of Israel, even converts.  

                      So it isn't quite as easy as pointing to those nations having a law of return and saying it is the exact same thing. It isn't.

                      "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                      by Alec82 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:12:49 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  If an Arab Israeli emigrates... (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        volleyboy1

                        then the children born overseas are Israeli citizens under Israeli law, just as for Jewish citizens of Israel.  In all cases, that applies for one generation, meaning that if any person, Arab, Jew, or any other ethnicity, is an Israeli citizen by virtue of having an Israeli parent, but was born overseas, then their children are only Israeli citizens if born in Israel.

                        •  Yes but the difference.. (5+ / 0-)

                          ...becomes obvious right away from your example: in the case of the Israeli who is an Arab and has kids outside of Israel, their children will not be eligible for citizenship under the law of return because they do not have a Jewish grandparent, but the descendant of an Israeli Jew has a Jewish grandparent, and they will be eligible for citizenship based on the law of return.  They are similarly situated, the only difference is ethnicity, not past citizenship of ancestors.

                          "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                          by Alec82 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:20:36 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Now if an Arab emigrates outside of Israel (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            and renounces Israeli citizenship then no their children would not be Israeli citizens. But if an Arab citizen of Israel has a baby in the U.S. why wouldn't that citizenship continue. If it doesn't I believe that should be changed. I see no problem with that citizenship remaining.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:23:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The law I referred to is Israeli citizenship law (0+ / 0-)

                            and that applies irrespective of ethnicity or claim to citizenship.  It is separate and apart from the Law of Return, which is simply a path to citizenship, but has nothing to do with citizenship law aside from offering that path.

                          •  You aren't addressing the ethnic discrimination (5+ / 0-)

                            A similarly situated Jew who emigrates outside of Israel and renounces their citizenship, does not adversely impact the citizenship claims of a child, who is eligible to return to Israel because they are Jewish.

                            Special rights for Jews as opposed to Arabs and other ethnic groups.  

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:26:20 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yep in the case of immigration pretty much so. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            But that is it. However, you seem to be laboring under the impression that I want or see or anyone sees Israel as the U.S. It isn't. Sorry.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:37:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  you really (4+ / 0-)

                    don't have to insult people when talking to them.

                    I know what the law of return is. I'm just pointing out that you seem ok with the fact that Jews who have never lived in Israel can go there, but Arabs who live there as Israeli citizens cannot even bring their relatives to live with them. Do you think that is just? Do you think that is equality? I think most real progressives would consider that discriminatory.

                    •  I am ok with the fact that (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JNEREBEL, greatdarkspot, Mets102

                      Jews will always have a refuge there. Big reason for the founding of the State. I also support a Palestinian State in that area and I fully support their right for return to that State as well.

                      As for this:

                      but Arabs who live there as Israeli citizens cannot even bring their relatives to live with them.

                      Who ever said that? I didn't. They can apply through normal channels for immigration. Where did I say only Jews could immigrate? Don't bother trying to find that - I never said it. I said Jews would have Hoq ha'shvut. Since that is a big part of why Israel was founded.... (at least in my mind) I don't have a problem with it.

                      "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                      by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:17:42 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  this (4+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        valadon, capelza, Terra Mystica, soysauce

                        makes no sense. "Normal channels of immigration" for Jews are immediate citizenship. But that's not normal for Arabs, so you're just saying you're fine with a system that discriminates against Arabs while granting Jews certain privileges that Arabs won't have. And I wasn't talking about the right of return to a future Palestinian state. I was talking about Israeli citizens who happen to be Arab. Why can't their relatives join them, in their homes and neighborhoods? If you're for equality, it's hard for me to see how you can support different laws that give Jews enhanced rights.

                        •  they don't want an Arab majority (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          capelza, soysauce, remi

                          They would lose their Jewish state. I have to say that I have changed my mind about the right of return. If Israel is such a model of "democracy" in the ME, then Palestinians ought to be the first ones allowed home to the land that was stolen from them.

                          Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                          by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:40:54 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Good luck getting that to happen. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            greatdarkspot, Red Sox, Mets102

                            I assume you will be volunteering when Israel says NO.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:44:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I understand (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            remi

                            I just can no longer countenance the inequity. I don't care why they were founded. Everyone else has to deal with reality. They've dispossessed and ethnically cleansed a people from their land until there is very little left and then say "you can't return to your homes", all for their benefit and for their ethnic supremacy. When does it end?

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 01:30:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It ends when both sides say "enough" (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, greatdarkspot, Mets102

                            form Two States and start to try to co-exist. Pretty much neither side gets what it totally wants but both sides get a chance....

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 02:03:07 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  not really (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Alec82, remi

                            only one side seems to be calling the shots lately and how you can even say this after Bibi's revelation about Oslo (and I suspect many other sabotaged efforts from "their" side), is beyond me.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 02:11:46 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I think Bibi is an ass - (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            what does that have to do with my comment.

                            I am telling you what ends it. You don't agree fine. You tell me what ends it. Then tell me how you are going to accomplish your end goal.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 02:15:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  They can't dictate the terms of the (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Alec82

                            agreement as if it is only they who matter.

                            He has everything to do with the lies and deception we've been subject to over the years about not having a partner for peace and all that rubbish.

                            You want my opinion? They don't want an agreement at all!

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 02:20:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I am not sure I disagree with (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            regards to Bibi and Likud. But that is not what you asked. I told you what I think it will take. I thin asked you to tell me what you think it would take and how can you make it work.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 02:26:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  they are the only ones (0+ / 0-)

                            who can end what they are doing...VB and that as you know is the systematic expulsion and dispossession of a people.

                            That's been going on for over 62 yrs and we wonder why there was a militant push back? Really? There is no parity.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 02:42:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And how, volleyboy, do you expect to get the (0+ / 0-)

                            settlers who are running around already burning fields to give warning of their 'price tag' to agree to any such thing or say 'enough'? As far as they are concerned the whole place is and has always been theirs and only theirs.  Remember that rabbi in today's papers and his um, book about things that could lawfully happen to gentiles. He is apparently operating out of one of those settlements.

                          •  plese cut it out with the gentile bit. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            RedPencil, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            i was going to say the same thing about the tisha b'av and constituency comments as well - but enough already with the harping on judaism.

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:27:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't know why (5+ / 0-)

                            people aren't just honest about their views. Volleyboy clearly believes that an exception should be made for Jews. That separate and unequal laws for Arabs are justifiable in order to maintain a Jewish majority. He should just say that and get it over with and stop pretending one can support equality and the Law of Return at the same time.

                            My views changed a lot over the past year. I took a class on the Arab Israeli conflict in my university. It really opened my eyes to not just the history, but just how racist Israel treats Arabs. I'm now going to be more active at my university pushing for divestment and a boycott. I don't want my tax dollars supporting a racist state like Israel.

                          •  You go friend... be active... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            But since you are in college - you may want to ask a professor.. "Why was Israel founded?". In fact, I would suggest you ask a Pro-Israeli professor that question. It is good to have all sides. Way back when, when I was in college I did my Junior year there to learn about it first hand. You could try that too...

                            As for equality... yes there are inequalities inherent in the founding of Israel. Again it is not meant to be the U.S. who denies that?

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:52:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  actually (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            valadon, Terra Mystica

                            my professor was pro-Israeli. It was just really easy to see through his biased presentation of the material. I mean, pretty much most of the class wasn't buying his attempts to make excuses for Israel's dirty laundry, like expelling hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.

                            If I did do a study abroad, I'd go to the West Bank, which I suppose is technically Israel because I'd have to be admitted by Israelis. I'm sure I'd learn a lot, and if something happened to me like having my eye shot out, I'm sure I know how you'd characterize me.

                            yes there are inequalities inherent in the founding of Israel. Again it is not meant to be the U.S. who denies that?

                            Yes, in the founding and to the current day. I don't care that it's not the US. I care that my country has allies like Egypt and Israel and Saudi Arabia whose governments don't share my values.

                          •  Oh really - are you psychic as well (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            you said:

                            I'm sure I'd learn a lot, and if something happened to me like having my eye shot out, I'm sure I know how you'd characterize me.

                            How would I characterize you? Can you please point to previous examples using my own words as to how I would characterize you.

                            I look forward to your answer.

                            You might learn something if you spent a year abroad because your comments here show you don't know much.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 01:13:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  oh (0+ / 0-)

                            you'd probably do something similar like you did with Emily Henochowicz. You'd probably call me an Israel-hater (like it's so bad to be one!).

                            You know, in following these discussions, you always try to insult the intelligence of others, when really, you're the one with all the logical missteps littering the place.

                            I'm sure if I went to Palestine I'd learn much, and if you go back to Israel, maybe you should seek out those Arab citizens you don't mind applying different laws to and see how they feel about it.

                          •  Can you please show (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, arielle, Mets102

                            me where I said:

                            Oh you'd probably do something similar like you did with Emily Henochowicz

                            You mean I would show a video of you singing that Jews are doing to Palestinians EXACTLY what was done to them in the Holocaust. Or would I show you saying: "You better be Good Jews".. in answer to Eiron posting that you still loved and supported Israel.

                            You know, in following these discussions, you always try to insult the intelligence of others, when really, you're the one with all the logical missteps littering the place.

                            Oh you mean like telling others what they believe or how they would react or little things like that?

                            I'm sure if I went to Palestine I'd learn much, and if you go back to Israel, maybe you should seek out those Arab citizens you don't mind applying different laws to and see how they feel about it.

                            You mean like the Arab Citizens of Israel that I played soccer and Basketball on a daily basis. Like asking them?

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 01:55:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  for some reason (0+ / 0-)

                            I doubt that you said to those Arabs: "I don't support you having the same rights as Jews like me" even though that is what you believe. Lots of white racists interacted with Black people during segregation, some maybe even played sports with them. That doesn't mean they thought they deserved equal rights.

                            As for the other comments, I'm simply basing my opinion on your previous behavior, that's all. If you don't like that, change your behavior.

                          •  LOL you are cocky (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            to say:

                            As for the other comments, I'm simply basing my opinion on your previous behavior, that's all. If you don't like that, change your behavior.

                            No I don't think I need to change - thanks anyway ... now show proof of your assertions or STFU. Because if you can't prove them then who gives a shit what your opinion may be?

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:01:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ok (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, Alec82

                            You really do enjoy swearing at people and you appear to get really angry when someone challenges you. That's the most boring kind of person to have a conversation with. All it means is you are insecure. Get a grip.

                            As for proof, your little performance smearing Emily was enough for me to see what kind of person you are.

                          •  Volley didn't smear Emily... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            Emily did all that work herself when she said that there was anti-Semitism because we're not good Jews

                          •  Of course I didn't smear her (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            but you don't expect that he actually will prove anything. He will just run in - yell "YOU SMEARED EMILY" and run away. Just like Lefty in the other diary. They accuse people of all kinds of stuff, get mad when we make fun of them for doing that then Run like little bunnies when confronted. Kinda sad really.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:13:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  who is (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Alec82

                            mad? In a diary about an injury which blinded her, and considering her family background, you fixated on comments and questioned her integrity, and it's my opinion that you intentionally distorted her remarks. Others pointed that out to you. Fine, we can disagree about that. But you don't seem the least bit upset by what the Israeli military did to her. She got the Goldstone treatment. She's not a good enough Zionist for you.

                            get mad when we make fun of them for doing that then Run like little bunnies when confronted. Kinda sad really.

                            The only person here who gets mad and curses like a pirate is you.

                          •  Ok... point by point (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            you fixated on comments and questioned her integrity, and it's my opinion that you intentionally distorted her remarks.

                            Nope I didn't question her intergrity. Eiron made this comment in diary:

                            Emily still loves and supports Israel, as do many Americans who are pained by the ominous course of events in the region, and those who have sufficient conviction to accept personal risk to seek justice and peace for others.

                            I countered that with an actual film put in my fry'd daze diary from zannie. You can see her words throughout the film. She hardly loves or supports Israel. How is that a question of her integrity. It questions the diarist not Emily's.

                            You say I intentionally distorted her remarks. Please listen from 3:20 - 3:35.. where did I distort what she said? Again do you have proof for your charge. I quoted her exactly when she says: "If you don't want people to be Anti Semitic they better act like good Good Jews". In the earlier part of that she says that Jews are treating Palestinians EXACTLY the same way as they got treated during the Holocaust. Her exact words... where am I misrepresenting her words? AND how so?

                            But you don't seem the least bit upset by what the Israeli military did to her.

                            I don't know the whole story.... but here is my comment in the diary to Oblomov:

                            I don't know the whole (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by: Eiron, psychodrew, Mets102

                            story. If however, she was targeted and the shot was a direct one, aimed at her - Yes I think they should pay. If not, no...

                            Let's put it this way. In Berkeley back in '91 or '92 there were riots over People's Park and a volleyball court. I was there. I watched the police completely over react and when some kids from Oakland went on a looting rampage on Telegraph the Police started firing rubber bullets. Now I was just watching and they fired on us - I ran like hell. If I had been hit then yes.. they should pay.. BUT if they were firing at the looters and I got hit by a ricochet then no. I put myself in a position to get hit - that was my fault not theirs.

                            I did not get hit that night - and the police did fire on us who were observing. So there is my direct answer.

                            Anything else you need?

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 28, 2010 at 06:58:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent | Reply to This ]

                            How is that a rag on her?

                            She got the Goldstone treatment. She's not a good enough Zionist for you.

                            She called Israel fascist, said the occupation was Exactly like the Shoah and said we better be "good Jews".. forgive me for not thinking she is a Zionist at all.

                            Anyhow, you have given me opinions. Please back them up with facts. I have done so....

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:52:55 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And again (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            how did I smear Emily. Did she or did she not make that video? Did she or did she not make those statements? Please tell me yet again how I smeared her.

                            You still haven't presented any examples of my smearing her. Maybe you could start with that?

                            As for insecure... I am not the one doing mind reading or tossing about unsubstantiated comments. When you want to have a real conversation - not one where the other person says; "Yes remi, whatever you say remi".. Let me know. You may also want to cut out the mind reading, assinine assumptions and actually back up your points with proof.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:11:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  He is just being abusive (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, remi

                            Ignore him, he has no interest in contributing anything of substance at the moment.

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:11:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  HEHE why show proof (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            of a charge when you can just say: "He smeared .... " I mean why face the humiliation of having to eat your words. Bummer that.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:14:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  eh (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, Alec82

                            When I decide to post on here, I usually post in diaries on other topics because the diaries on Israel and Palestine end up devolving into personal disputes. But if these kinds of comments about not giving Arabs equal rights were made against any other group, this place would not tolerate it. So here we have this group of pro-Israel people who make such comments and then get self-righteous when challenged, and everything goes downhill from there. People stay away from these discussions for a reason.

                          •  Righteous victims (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza, remi

                            What can you do? They believe that they are entitled to be assholes, and everyone should be happy to accommodate them, and they are upset to discover that liberals and left wingers in general reject their ethnocentrism.  You are right, it would not be tolerated with respect to any other group, and generally isn't, but in this case it would be politically inconvenient to call them out.  

                            And so it goes.

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:19:54 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  How is that proof that I smeared (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            Emily coming along? You guys working on that?

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:22:20 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102, canadian gal

                            you say this;

                            I usually post in diaries on other topics because the diaries on Israel and Palestine end up devolving into personal disputes.

                            yet here you are making personal charges and assumptions regarding me. All without one example of proof.

                            So any proof there or do want to continue blowing hot air?

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:20:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  no (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, Alec82

                            There are no charges made against you, just observations about your behavior, that's all. I call it as I see it. You were most unsympathetic to a young, idealistic girl who was blinded by a state's military that you support. But that's the thing: the Israeli military does that sort of thing to Palestinians regularly, we just never hear about it. That's the bigger picture that is missed. That's what that diary was about, and I think you knew you were trolling it by fixating on some irrelevant comments. And whether you see it or not, the effect is to whitewash the violence against civilians the Israeli military engages in regularly.

                            There's your proof, but I doubt you'll be civil enough to engage. And I'm out of time for the day, so catch you another day.

                          •  No (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            That diary didn't need to make a point about Emily as a Zionist. It is a bullshit point meant to villify. What happened should stand on it's own. That film never would have brought in had that comment not been made. I said it then and I say it again. There is enough bullshit in these threads we don't need more.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:55:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  uh-huh... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102

                            I usually post in diaries on other topics because the diaries on Israel and Palestine end up devolving into personal disputes.

                            personal attack on you, uprated a personal attack on me downthread.... and from what i can see, 27 of their last 27 comments' topic is.... i/p!

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 08:57:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sometimes, it's just too easy n/t (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1
                          •  and if you'd (3+ / 0-)

                            bother to search my comments prior to the 27 of the last few days, you'll see in the past I participated in a range of diaries, and very infrequently any diary related to Israel/Palestine.

                            And who are you, the uprate police? What do you do, run around monitoring who uprates what? Seriously, people need to get a life.

                          •  Yup. nt (0+ / 0-)

                            "Dega dega dega dega. Break up the concrete..." The Pretenders

                            by Terra Mystica on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 08:10:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  I am not for Israel being the U.S. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Mets102

                          what is so confusing for you. Yes, Jews will have one privilage that Arabs won't have. Just one. What ever gave you the impression that Israel was supposed to be a clone of the U.S.? Didn't you know Israel was designed to be a Homeland for the Jewish People? You weren't aware of this?

                          What I mean by "normal channels" is that if an Arab wants to move to Israel they can apply for immigrant status as in every other country on Earth. How would you be unclear on the concept? You seem to pride yourself on understanding this.

                          "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                          by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:42:55 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  that one (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, soysauce

                            little privilege is not so little. Who said anything about Israel being like the US? I was just talking about equal rights for all of a state's citizens. That concept isn't limited to the US.

                            Yes, I'm aware that Israel is the homeland for Jewish people. I've no problem with that. I wonder though why that means that it can't be a similar homeland for its Arab citizens and their relatives?

                            But I believe you answered that question already. Jews get special rights.

                          •  See here is what you don't get (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            Jews need to have a homeland oontrolled by Jews. No one else. It hasn't really worked out for us any other time in history when we don't have a place of refuge. You may have great ideals for protecting us but Jews cannot put that on anyone else. Sorry, you need to understand that.

                            The One State solution is a fantasy... unfortunately it is just that.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:55:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  that's fine (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, soysauce

                            a homeland controlled by Jews I'd have no problem with if there was such thing as an empty land to make into that homeland, but that's the real fantasy isn't it? That your group can just pick a plot of land and claim it as yours because of history, and pretend it doesn't have other people there who deserve the same rights as your ethnic group. In your case, you recognize that other people are there, but you're cool with denying them certain little rights.

                          •  VB, please tell me if I'm misunderstanding (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza, remi

                            you.  You say that "Jews need to have a homeland [c]ontrolled by Jews" and I know that you've said elsewhere that you believe that Israel, as a Jewish state, should grant full citizenship rights to all non-Jewish residents.  So you seem to believe that Israel, as a Jewish state, will fully protect the rights of Palestinians who live there.

                            Yet if I recall correctly, you are also against a single state because you believe that in that single state, Jews would be a demographic minority and therefore at risk.  Do I recall that correctly?

                            Because if so, the implication is that Jews will protect the rights of minorities within a demographically Jewish state, but Palestinians will not protect the rights of minorities within a demographically Palestinian state.

                          •  Not quite (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, hikerbiker, Mets102

                            By the way I see what you are trying to show.. that you feel I would be racist if I made this assumption.

                            You leave out that I believe in a Palestinian National Homeland. I think Palestinian rights would be best protected by a Palestinian government as Jewish rights would be best protected by a Jewish government.

                            For the record, Israel has done a crappy job with Arab rights and Palestinians have not done any better though all we have is their current political philosophies as evidenced through Hamas and the P.A.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 01:25:50 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Not quite. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza, Terra Mystica

                            I'm not leaving anything out.  I'm fully aware that you're for two states.  But you've made it quite clear that you believe that only Jews can protect Jews.  So unless you believe that in that two state solution, Israel will lose all of its Palestinian residents, there will be Palestinians living in Israel.  And I know you believe that Israel can protect the rights of Palestinians living in a Jewish majority state.  And, in that same two state solution, unless all the settlers leave, there will be Jewish residents of Palestine.

                            So do you believe that Palestinians can protect the rights of Jews who live in a Palestinian majority state?

                          •  Yes I do believe Palestinians can protect (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Terra Mystica, hikerbiker, Mets102

                            Jews living in their state as well as Jews can protect Palestinians living in Israel.

                            However, given human nature - should those protections fall apart... Each people would have a homeland.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 01:39:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So, then, if you believe that Palestinians (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza

                            can protect Jews living in their state, and that Jews can protect Palestinians living in their state, why does it matter whether there are two states or one state that is a homeland for everyone?

                          •  LOL... because occasionally throughout (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, hikerbiker, Mets102

                            history governments change and minorities lose their rights. I believe you would be familiar with German history as an example. The only guarantees against that are Two States.

                            History tells us this. Why not learn from it for a change.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 01:48:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  History tells us lots of things. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza

                            History tells us that states get conquered by other states too.  History tells us that sometimes bad things happen and sometimes they don't.  Sometimes minorities lose their rights and sometimes they don't.  I'm all for learning from history, but I'm not going to pick and choose certain parts of it and not others in order to do that.

                          •  Please tell us outside the United States (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, hikerbiker, Mets102

                            where Jews have lived as fully equal citizens throughout their history and mean throughout their history not just for a few years.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 01:57:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I wouldn't even include the US on that list... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

                            We weren't guaranteed full equality here until 1868 and passage of the 14th Amendment applied the Bill of Rights to the states.  In fact, in some states, it was a requirement that officeholders be Christian, take New Hampshire, for example, which had that requirement for approximately 100 years following independence.

                          •  I'm fully aware of the bleakness of (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza, Terra Mystica, Alec82, remi

                            much of Jewish history, as well as of places, like the Netherlands, where Jews were safer.  I'm also fully aware that in that biblical history, Israel was conquered and Jews were dispersed.  So what's to prevent that from happening again either?  No matter how strong militarily any country can be, there's always a time when some other country will be stronger.

                          •  We'll take our chances. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker, Mets102

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:15:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So the difference then is that I'm willing (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza

                            to take a difference chance than you're willing to take.  That's fine.  But who is "we?"

                          •  Most Jewish people in the world (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            who support the existence of Israel. You do realize that fact, do you not.....

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:23:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Since when are you the spokesperson (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza, Alec82

                            for "[m]ost Jewish people in the world?"  I'm speaking for myself.  I was under the impression that that's what we do here, unless we make it very clear by citing a poll or scanning in and posting the paper that shows an appointment to some kind of "larger" position.

                          •  Last Tuesday.... didn't you know? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            Tell you what find me a poll of American Jews where it says they don't support the existence of Israel. Until you can - that is seemingly the majority opinion.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:56:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Were you demoted? (4+ / 0-)

                            First you were speaking for most Jewish people in the world and now you're speaking only for American Jews.  

                            By the way, I'm very aware what majority Jewish opinion is.  But "majority opinion" is a dangerous hat to hang one's argument on, both because it can be very fickle, as, you know, history demonstrates, and because it sometimes says ugly things (e.g., at one point majority opinion in this country was that blacks were inferior to whites).

                          •  You are so good at getting to the nib. nt (0+ / 0-)

                            "Dega dega dega dega. Break up the concrete..." The Pretenders

                            by Terra Mystica on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 08:21:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sorry but anyone who thinks the Jews were (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            "safer" in the Netherlands needs to read or reread Anne Frank's diary.

                            Also:  Your logic here also makes me wonder if you would  advise me not to worry about feeding my kids foods with pesticides, mercury, and artificial sweeteners because, hey, they may very well end up with tumors anyway, so why bother carefully planning their meals?

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:09:51 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Since we're talking about history, (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Terra Mystica, Alec82

                            the Netherlands, back in the early modern period, was one of the few places where Jews could live.  That's what I was referring to.  I'm aware that I was not fully clear about that, but you also are leaping to conclusions about what I was saying without asking me first.  And, for the record, not only have I read the diary, not only have I been to her hiding place, but as someone whose maternal family is German Jewish, as in she was born there, which you know, I find it, shall I say, just a tad offensive that you would think that I'm not fully aware of what happened in the Netherlands in the 1940s.

                            Furthermore, where have I ever said that anti-semitism isn't something to worry about?  Your logic here leads me to believe that for you there are only two possible beliefs: that anti-semitism doesn't exist or that it's everywhere and ready to strike down us Jews at any moment.

                            Yet I know you don't believe that.  I know that you know that there are all sorts of gradations.  So why do you not extend the same courtesy to me?

                          •  I'm sorry if you found me to be discourteous. (4+ / 0-)

                            I just find the attitude you presented -- "what's to prevent this from happening?  What's to prevent that from happening?" to be annoying and unconstructive.

                            Obviously, there are no guarantees in life.  But if we are to believe the majority opinion here on this blog, there really are no existential threats to Israel and it's all just a figment of our collective paranoid pro-I imaginations.  Right?

                            Either way, there's no point in having that defeatist attitude.  You don't need to convince anyone here of your views.  Really, it's the Israeli public and their elected officials who need the convincing.  They are the ones who can truly effect change in I-P, not us.

                            I've also been to Amsterdam and also visited Anne Franks hideaway.  So what?  Many people read this blog for whom this is their first exposure to any of this history.  For you to write, especially in this context, that "Jews were safer" in the Netherlands is not only inaccurate, but also renders your whole argument less credible than it was in the first place.

                            Good night, or good morning.  I'm leaving for the airport soon and won't have email access for a while, so please don't be offended if I don't add more to our conversation.

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 02:23:46 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh, I get it. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Terra Mystica, Alec82

                            Even though I said very specifically in my comment to you that I was not referring to Jews in the Netherlands in the 1940s, you keep going on as if that's what I wrote about.  So much for you responding to what I've written.  I mean, really.  You could have simply said something like "AM, I know you know what happened in the Netherlands in the 1940s.  How can you say that Jews were safer?" to which I would have responded, "Oops, sorry for not being clear, I was thinking of a much earlier period of time" and we would have been done with it.  I mean, if you're so concerned about people reading this blog for whom this is their first exposure to any history, one would think that you would want to make sure that I was not referring to something else.  But no.  

                            As for the rest of what you wrote, I find it, as you say, annoying and unconstructive.  The majority opinion on this blog?  Who knows what it is.  I certainly don't and neither do you nor do any of your upraters.  Have you done a survey of the blog?  No.  So your characterization of it as "there really are no existential threats to Israel and it's all just a figment of our collective paranoid pro-I imaginations" says everything about you and nothing else.  But what it does say is interesting, given that Israel has the most powerful military in the region, the backing of the US, and acts, shall we say, less than graciously toward its Palestinian neighbors.  Does Israel have enemies?  Of course.  Does Israel sometimes create enemies through its actions?  Of course.  Is there anti-semitism in the world?  Of course.  But, since you brought it up, what exactly is the existential threat?  Yes, I know that that's how many in Israel feel, but given the actual reality of the military power balance in the ME, and the reality that Israel is more and more simply taking over the West Bank, what is the existential threat?

                            As for your first paragraph, I truly do not know how to respond.  But it seems to me that what you're saying is that because we're afraid that something truly dreadful and awful might happen, because it has happened in the past, therefore we have to act as if it is going to happen again.  Obviously one should be cognizant of one's surroundings, but no, I do not believe that one should live one's life expecting the sky to fall at any minute.  And that's the attitude that you seem to have.  And that's, perhaps, one of our key differences.

                            So when you read this, I hope you had a good trip, and I hope you come back willing to deal with what I actually write, and ask me for clarification if there's something that's unclear, before assuming the worst.  And, should you do that, I'm happy to do the same for you.

                          •  I am so tempted to type the words (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102, canadian gal

                            a-doy-weiner shnitzel.

                            Otherwise known as DUH.

                            :)

                            It is really annoying that so many people seem to take such a short-sighted view of history, past and future.

                            Obviously, SOME Israelis could and would be good hosts to Palestinians, and SOME Palestinians could and would be good hosts to Israelis.  Within two states there would obviously be minority populations from the other.

                            One advantage of this, at least theoretically, is that each majority population would then have a vested interest in treating its' minority population well.

                            Today, with the Palestinians lacking a state, this motivator sadly doesn't exist for either side.

                            (It's so late and I'm exhausted, so I hope this comment isn't completely incoherent.)

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:04:55 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  Reading comprehension? (4+ / 0-)

                I think you need do work on your own reading comprehension.  Alec said:

                in order to facilitate de fact[o] ethnic supremacism,

                Thus, no one has ever said you used the words "I support ethnic supremacism", and your question "Can you show me a place where I have ever said "Jews are superior", is meaningless.

                Rather, the policies you support and the purposes behind them (ensuring a Jewish majority and Jewish control of what is an ethnically-mixed state) amount DE FACTO to a policy of ethnic supremacism.  

                As for your support for full rights for Arab citiznes (except for those rights you don't agree with), can you remind me, were you part of those diaries discussing the destruction of the Bedouin village in Israel?

                "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

                by weasel on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:54:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Hoq ha'shvut is what, now, for those limited (0+ / 0-)

                to English?

              •  So, in your dream, Arabs are STILL 2nd class. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                capelza, Alec82

                Yes, still 2nd class citizens in Israel with ALMOST all of the same rights as Jews in Israel - just not QUITE all of the same rights as Jewish Israelis.  Hence, specifically because they are Arabs, Israeli Arabs don't get all of the same rights.  Yep, that's 2nd class citizenship defined for you right there, VB.

                You don't wanna extend Hoq ha'shvut (Right of Return / Law of Return - take your pick) to the Arabs?  Why not?  Aren't they people and full-fledged citizens of Israel, too?  Oh, wait a second!  I understand now.  While you're throwing Hebrew terms at us instead of the plain English words we've all been using for months and months here, what's the Hebrew phrase for "Palestinian Population Bomb"?  That ought to be thoroughly explored while we're discussing the denial of that specific right to a people based solely on their ethnicity.  Yes, perhaps we should discuss that racist concept at length next.

                [begin snarkasm]
                OH NOEZ!  It's the AAY-rabz come to takez Iz-reel!
                (You haz discuvr'd their ee-vile plot, VB.)
                [end snarkasm]

                What I got from Alec's comment was that he used the term "ethnic supremacism" to mean "numeric superiority" in the elections and law-making process, not to mean "we're better than they are".  You should re-read his comment with that thought.  If he MEANT "better than you", then I apologize for the inaccuracy in my reading.

                Although, the denial of ANY rights (even one - even this one) to a group of people clearly makes the case that the group with the extra rights is most certainly (at least in their own minds) the group which is "better" than "the other".  That, my friend, is wrong no matter how you slice it.

                C'mon man.  Get on the left here.  How can you lay any claim to the Liberal/Progressive side of the political spectrum and at the same time support denying a group of people the same set of rights as their neighbors in the same country - based specifically on their ethnicity of all things?

                Sheesh, VB.  I didn't know you had this side to you.  You know that I support a safe Israel inside the Green Line.  You know that I want Israel to be a haven for Jews everywhere - a sanctuary from persecution for all time.  You know that I want all of the nations in that region to have good diplomatic relationships and strong economic ties with each other.  We've talked about those things at length.  But you'll never get me to support different levels of civil rights for two peoples within the same national borders.  

                Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

                by Celtic Merlin on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:27:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  They aren't the same obviously (0+ / 0-)

            but both qualities now define Israel.

            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:31:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I appreciate your sentiment... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      valadon, Flyswatterbanjo, soysauce

      and agree with you that much of the emotional rhetoric is not careful to distinguish between "support for Israel" and "support for certain policies [of the Israeli government]," in much the same manner that "opposition to Israeli policies" are too often conflated with "opposition to Israel's right to exist."

      However, I find your statement that you "support the existence of Israel in a way that [flyswatterbanjo] (seemingly) and all the BDS folk find intolerable" to be an objectionable generalization.

      Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

      by angry marmot on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 10:54:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Given BDS (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        thebluecrayon, Mets102

        has stated goals that specifically end up in a One State solution...See the resolution after the Gaza Freedom march... and I specifically think One State is not only not acheivable but not acceptable I would say my comment is accurate. The goals of BDS are published.

        "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

        by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:01:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The goals of BDS (8+ / 0-)

          are Israeli compliance with international law.  It's not the movement's problem that you find the idea of refugees returning to their homes demographically objectionable.

          [H]uman history is a history not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacrifice, courage, kindness. H. Zinn

          by soysauce on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:44:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Actually it is the movements problem (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mets102

            that I find the One State solution to be a problem. It is also a problem for the movement that Millions of Israelis and people in the diaspora don't like the idea. You are going to have to figure a way to deal with that. Apparently it is your problem.

            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:12:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  My problem and (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              weasel, valadon, capelza, Terra Mystica, remi

              one shared by every Palestinian is how to find justice for the millions of Palestinian refugees expelled by Israel in 1948.  That isn't going away just because you find my kind unacceptable.

              [H]uman history is a history not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacrifice, courage, kindness. H. Zinn

              by soysauce on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:43:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't find you "unacceptable" (5+ / 0-)

                where did I say this:

                ...just because you find my kind unacceptable.

                I just believe in two different states, one Palestinian, one Jewish. Working together we may find a solution but our versions of Justice and what should happen are very different. I would say this is a problem for both of us.

                "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:47:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You find my kind unacceptable. (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  valadon, capelza, remi

                  I prefer the likudniks who aren't afraid to be honest.

                  [H]uman history is a history not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacrifice, courage, kindness. H. Zinn

                  by soysauce on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:49:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  But you do say that only Jews can protect (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  valadon, capelza, Alec82

                  Jews.  And you do say that in your vision of a two state solution, Israel as a Jewish state will protect the rights of Palestinians living there.  And you do say that you are against one state because Jews would be a demographic minority.  So the implication is that you believe that Palestinians will not protect the rights of Jews but that Jews will protect the rights of Palestinians.

                  So that's not exactly a pretty picture of Palestinians.

                  •  Keep trying to spin.... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Mets102

                    I believe also in a Palestinian State you conveniently left that out. It is not a One State Jewish v. a One State Palestinian. I think a One State Jewish solution would be horrible and would not protect Palestinian rights. I believe in Two States. Please lets try to be accurate if you can.

                    "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                    by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 01:32:47 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Talk about not being accurate. (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      valadon, capelza, Terra Mystica, Alec82

                      Did you actually read my comment, where I said "And you do say that in your vision of a two state solution..."  I'm bolding it for you.

                      Now, back to my point.  You've made it clear that you believe that only Jews will protect Jews.  You've also made it clear that a Jewish majority state will protect the rights of Palestinians who live there.  So the implication is that you believe that a Palestinian majority state, whether as one state or as part of a two state solution, will not protect the rights of Jews who live there.  Is that what you believe?

                      •  So sorry AM you are not going to get (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Mets102

                        to try to manufacture your point here. Palestinians in their State will protect Jews as well as Jews will protect Palestinians in Israel. However, if those protections fail (as history shows minority protection does fail at times) each group will have a homeland to go to.

                        Nice try.. I'm sorry you failed. There are some lovely parting gifts exit stage Left. Have a nice day.

                        "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                        by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 01:43:21 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Sorry to disappoint you, vb, (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          valadon, capelza, Alec82

                          I'm not trying to manufacture anything.  I'm just pointing out the implications of your argument, as well as its inconsistencies.  So, to use your words, "Nice try...I'm sorry you failed."

                          •  Israel cannot have both (0+ / 0-)

                            but far be it from them to recognize that as they persist in their ethnic cleansing and dispossession. They cannot have both this dream of "greater Israel", and (for the most part) a purely Jewish state (and still hope to be called a democracy).

                            A choice must be made that is also equitable to the people whose land they've stolen. The cause is a humanitarian one, not a question of whose existence is more valuable to humanity.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 02:00:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ROFLMAO (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Red Sox, Mets102

                            Greater Israel has nothing to do with the Two State Solution. Nor does a "purely Jewish State". Come on valadon learn this shit if you are going to get so involved.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 02:29:39 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The two-state solution has something to do with (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            valadon, volleyboy1

                            Greater Israel insofar as that it wholeheartedly rejects the idea of Greater Israel in the name of peace.

                          •  Oh but if people would only learn (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            reality. We really want "Greater Israel" we just lie about it. It is only the Likudnikim who tell the truth.. Shhh don't tell any.......OH SHIT </snark>

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 02:34:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't know what you do VB (0+ / 0-)

                            but they certainly lie about it.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 02:53:12 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't lie about me my position (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            that is what I do. I don't need too.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:04:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You don't believe in the two state solution. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza

                            Unless you've changed your mind since you wrote this:

                            Additionally, while I would prefer a demilitarized Palestinian state, that is to be left to the negotiators, with the most the Palestinians being permitted being a small defensive force.  I have seen it suggested here, and believe it being worth a mention, that perhaps the Palestinian state could begin demilitarized and as peace and trust grew it would gradually be permitted to increase military strength to the point of forming the defensive military suggested immediately above.

                          •  Learn to read... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            see exactly what I said there:

                            Additionally, while I would prefer a demilitarized Palestinian state, that is to be left to the negotiators, with the most the Palestinians being permitted being a small defensive force.

                            Lots of countries have restrictions on their militaries (see Germany and Japan, also see Austria, which is permanently neutral).  I said it's to be left to the negotiators.  Forgive me for supporting Israel's right to protect its own security.

                          •  I don't have any problem (4+ / 0-)

                            with a country protecting itself, but it's always a one way street with Israel's concerns being paramount. No one ever discusses the security of Palestine...although I can pretty well figure out why.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:03:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm reading you loud and clear. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza

                            You support a militarized Israel and a demilitarized Palestine.  So you support a one state and a one vassal state solution.  I mean, don't you think that an independent Palestine should have a right to protect its own security?  

                          •  Actually, you aren't... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            Because I explicitly state that this is something to be left to the negotiators.  And take a guess what, in negotiations you don't get everything that you want.  Just like Israel is going to have to make some painful concessions the Palestinians also will have to.  Please tell me two or more concessions you support the Palestinians making in the name of peace.  To start off, I'll give you two that I support the Israelis making if that is the price to pay for peace:

                            1. A division of Jerusalem, with east Jerusalem being given up save for the Kotel, Jewish Quarter, and the Mount of Olives
                            1. Palestine being allowed limited defensive capabilities in lieu of a completely demilitarized state
                          •  But what is to be left to the negotiators (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza

                            is the Palestinian military capability, not the Israeli one, according to you.  And your most generous position is limited Palestinian defensive capabilities.  Nothing about limiting Israeli defensive capabilities.  So, as I said, I'm reading you loud and clear.

                          •  Please tell me the concessions you support (0+ / 0-)

                            the Palestinians making in the name of peace, because to this point you have not indicated that you favor any concessions being made.

                          •  You can try to change the subject, (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            valadon, capelza

                            but I'm not going to oblige, thank you.  But I do appreciate you making it clear that you believe the only thing that is up for negotiation is Palestinian military capacity, not Israeli.  So I thank you in advance for agreeing with me that you misspoke when you said that you are for a two state solution.

                            Since that was what our discussion was initially about, I'd prefer to keep to there before moving on to other things.  Please note that that does not mean that I'm not willing to discuss other things, because I'm happy to do so, but I'd like to keep on track, if you don't mind.

                          •  Avoiding the question seems to be your specialty (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            Do you consider Germany or Japan to be vassals of the United States because they have limitations on their militaries?

                            I have provided 2 concessions on the Israeli side. You have provided none on the Palestinian side. Perhaps you should try reading the actual words, rather than what you want to see.

                          •  It's interesting that you're talking about (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza, Terra Mystica

                            yourself in the second person.  You should really stop that.

                            So let's get back to, you know, the initial question, which is about your supposed support for a two state solution.  Why is it that, according to you, Palestine's military capabilities are up for negotiation and not Israel's?  

                            Or, to put it another way, you're not interested in a real two state solution.  You're interested in a "solution" that provides Israel with full military capabilities bordering a Palestinian state with, at best, limited ones--in other words, one state and a vassal state.  To paraphrase Freud, your double standard is showing.

                            Until you address that, which was what my initial point was to you, it's quite clear that you're simply trying to change the subject.

                          •  Again... avoiding the question... (0+ / 0-)

                            I said it's up to the negotiators.  I laid out my personal preferences, but ultimately that's for negotiators, and not me or you to decide.  Now, I once again ask you, what concessions do you support the Palestinians making in the name of peace?

                          •  I see you're still avoiding. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Terra Mystica

                            The fact that you reiterate that Palestinian military capacity will be, at best, left up to negotiators, but that Israeli military capacity will not be demonstrates that you do not believe in a two state solution.  So just admit that.  I suspect that you might even feel better rather than having to expend so much energy avoiding and obfuscating.  Then I'm happy to move on to discuss other things.

                          •  You once again avoid the question... (0+ / 0-)

                            besides fully supporting Israel's right to defend herself, I also live in a place known as the real world, and in the real world it's very clear that your suggestion would never fly.

                            Now that we've gotten this out of the way, please tell me what concessions you support the Palestinians making.

                          •  Come on, Mets, you can do it. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Terra Mystica

                            I know you can!

                          •  Sorry... (0+ / 0-)

                            I live in the real world.  It's a nice place to live.

                          •  So "the real world" (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza, Terra Mystica

                            requires Palestinian military capacity to be negotiated and to be, at best, limited, while Israeli military capacity is not up for negotiation.  As I've been saying, you believe in a one state and a one vassal state solution.

                            You're soooooo close to saying it yourself, why continue to beat around the bush?  I know you can say it.  I just know it!

                          •  Again... avoiding the question... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            I'm saying the following:  In the real world, Israeli military capacity is not going to be on the table (irrespective of our differing opinions of whether or not it should be, this is the reality of the situation), however Palestinian military capacity will be (once again, irrespective of our differing opinions of whether or not it should be, this is the reality of the situation).  I've clearly laid out my personal beliefs, while at the same time saying that this is a question that will be determined by the negotiators.

                            You've also failed to answer my question as to whether or not you would consider Germany and Japan US "vassals" because there are limits on their military capabilities.

                            Now that we have all that out of the way, please answer my question and indicate at least 2 concessions you believe Palestinians should make in order to achieve peace.

                          •  You've stated your preferences (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Terra Mystica

                            for a state of Israel and a vassal state of Palestine.  You've made it very clear that your preference is for a fully militarized Israel and a Palestine that is either demilitarized or, at best, has a limited defensive capacity.  What you call "the real world" is again your preference.  There's no way to know ahead of time what negotiators will or will not agree to, unless, of course, you're psychic.  Which you're not.

                            But I'd be careful; it almost sounds here like you've got some preconditions to negotiations.  Which I know you never would have.

                            So, therefore, you should just own up to your own beliefs.  It's really okay.  I promise I won't think any less of you and I promise also that I will then be happy to move the conversation onto the next point.

                          •  Again avoiding the question... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            That I said that it is for the negotiators to decides makes abundantly clear I have no preconditions. Now, that we've gotten that out of the way, we can in fact move on to the next part of the conversation.  Therefore, besides reiterating my question asking for 2 concessions that you support the Palestinians making in the name of peace, I further ask if you favor a one-state solution or two-state solution.

                          •  Allow me to quote you, once again: (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza, Terra Mystica

                            Additionally, while I would prefer a demilitarized Palestinian state, that is to be left to the negotiators, with the most the Palestinians being permitted being a small defensive force.  I have seen it suggested here, and believe it being worth a mention, that perhaps the Palestinian state could begin demilitarized and as peace and trust grew it would gradually be permitted to increase military strength to the point of forming the defensive military suggested immediately above.

                            So, yes, you have preconditions.  You would prefer a demilitarized Palestinian state.  "[T]he most" you are willing to see "the Palestinians being permitted" is "a small defensive force."  Since you are not willing to see the Palestinians being able to have a fully functioning military, that's a precondition.  Since you are not willing to see Israel's military capacity up for negotiation, that's a precondition.  Since you are in favor of a fully militarized Israel, and, at most, a oh so slightly militarized Palestine, you are not in a favor of a two state solution.

                            I don't know why it's so hard for you to just admit that.  It's not like you'd be saying something that isn't already crystal clear.

                          •  Again avoiding the question... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, canadian gal

                            It seems you miss the part about negotiations and me accepting what the negotiators agree to.

                            Now, I once again reiterate my questions:

                            1. Do you consider Germany and Japan American "vassals" because of the limitations on their military?
                            1. Do you support a one-state solution or a two-state solution?
                            1. Please provide 2 concessions that you believe Palestinians should make in the name of peace.
                          •  Again, I read you loud and clear. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Terra Mystica

                            You're very specific about what you are and are not willing to have on the table for negotiations.  That's preconditions.

                            Think of all the energy you've been expending denying to say outright what is so obvious.  It's almost like you're afraid to come out of the closet, so to speak.  But you're already out, if it's any consolation.

                          •  Your unwillingness to answer my questions (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            leads me to believe the following:

                            1. You do not believe the Palestinians should make any concessions and that only the Israelis should
                            1. You believe in a one-state solution
                            1. You oppose pragmatism

                            Please correct me if I'm wrong.

                            And to reiterate my position, if the negotiators agree to no limitations on the Palestinian military, then that is the decision of the negotiators.  The difference is that I apply pragmatism, and I am willing to accept concessions for the sake of peace.  You have yet to indicate that you are willing to do so.

                          •  Oh Mets Mets Mets. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Terra Mystica

                            Keep trying to change the subject.  It's really truly okay for you to say that you believe in a one state/one vassal state solution.  Honesty is good.

                            But I do think it's a step forward for you to say that you're willing to forego that ideal of yours if the negotiators negotiate something different.  That's not a reiteration of your position, it's a real step forward.  And I appreciate it.  Sincerely.

                            You're so close now to owning up to your own belief system, I can practically taste it!  Just take that last step.  I know you can do it.  And then I'm happy to move our conversation to the next step, which is my answers to your questions.  I truly am.

                          •  Again avoiding the question... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            My belief system is irrelevant except insofar as I put pragmatism, and therefore the obtaining of peace, ahead of idealism.  You have yet to indicate that you do the same.  Now, either contradict the conclusions I have come as to your beliefs, or I will consider the refusal to answer to be indicative that those conclusions are correct.

                          •  Oh, you were so close to saying the words! (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Terra Mystica

                            And now here you are, backing away again.  "Pragmatism," as I'm sure you'll agree, is a term whose meaning is very much up for debate.  What you consider to be pragmatic I might not, and visa versa.

                            But as I keep saying to you, once you stop avoiding my initial point to you, and stop trying to change the subject away from that, I'm more than happy to address your questions to me.  And I really mean that.

                          •  Your refusal to answer my questions (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            psychodrew, volleyboy1

                            speaks for itself. QED.

                          •  ABC? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Terra Mystica

                            XYZ?
                            PDQ?

                            You keep avoiding the original point, and then accuse me of avoiding subsequent things.  Sorry.  Doesn't work that way.

                            I've made it very clear why I refuse to address your questions.  Sadly, you have not made it clear why you refuse to address the initial point of our conversation.

                            So now I have to move on to other, nonvirtual, things.  I'm sure our paths will cross again, and perhaps then you'll finally stop avoiding, and then we can move forward.

                          •  Beyond what they already have, and in addition to (0+ / 0-)

                            the primordial suspension of disbelief, in light of generations of supposed-to-be-halted-by-agreement settlement activity independent of party in power, that any agreement Israel accepts will be implemented.

                            Those kinds of already conceded concessions?  

                            You want more?

                            "Dega dega dega dega. Break up the concrete..." The Pretenders

                            by Terra Mystica on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 09:45:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  He and Mets want a one and a half state (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza, Terra Mystica

                            solution, so the Palestinians have all the responsibilities, but must always be subordinate, because after all Israel must worry foremost about its own security and all else falls to that, including any ability of Palestine to protect its own citizens if and when Israel goes off on another  security bender like the present one. I am waiting to discover how much of WB israel will insist on keeping so it can defend against an invasion from Jordan. the maps I've seen say about a quarter of WB is already seized for an Israeli military zone.

                            What I am really waiting to see is how volley or Mets102 solves the King Oscar Sardine can problem for either of these states, this many million to be sheltered on only this much space with this much water.

                          •  wtf? (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102, canadian gal

                            Hair on fire is the new black!

                            by arielle on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 06:20:14 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What do the Palestinians have (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza

                            that might be considered concedable?

                            Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

                            by Eiron on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:47:31 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Furthermore, now that VB has uprated (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza

                            your comment, I wonder if VB also supports a one state and a one vassal state solution.  So I'll ask you, VB: Do you believe that an independent Palestine has a right to have its own military, including an army, navy and air force?

                          •  If there is a full peace treaty (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            I don't share Mets' position. I think if there is full peace then they can have whatever military they deem necessary.

                            I understand Mets' concern though but, I feel a bit differently.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:17:59 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's why I asked. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza

                            There are a number of posters here who say that they support a two state solution but don't support the right of an independent Palestine to have a full military.  And some don't support the right of an independent Palestine to have full control over its resources either.  So I think we should all be clear about what we mean by that term.

                          •  Greater Israel has everything to do (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Alec82

                            with no solution. A purely Jewish state has everything to do with preferring a two-state solution to a one-state.. I understand this better than you think.

                            Thnx so much for laughing at me, but what else could I expect?

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 02:52:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Again LOL (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Red Sox, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            You say:

                            A purely Jewish state has everything to do with preferring a two-state solution to a one-state.. I understand this better than you think.

                            Really.. ummmm no. Where did I ever for advocate for a purely Jewish State? I await your proof.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:06:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Up yours VB (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Eiron

                            I'm just that ticked off. I've never mocked you.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:23:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I just want you to back up what you (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, Red Sox, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            are saying. Seems to be in short supply today.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:25:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  where did I say that was your position? (0+ / 0-)

                            I was speaking in general. I've also discussed this with you before and you agreed about a Jewish state.

                            regardless-you still mocked me and my statement stands.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:28:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The Two State position is my position (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            you made an allusion to it SO... by doing so you make your comment a comment on my position.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 04:23:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  oh I see VB (0+ / 0-)

                            you are the only person in the world who supports a two state solution, so any time it's mentioned people can only be speaking of your position. And you mocked me?

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 04:40:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ummm after the website you linked too (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, Mets102

                            you have nothing to say to me and I have nothing to say to you. PERIOD. Holocaust Revisionism??.. Really.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 04:48:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  well good for you (0+ / 0-)

                            because I consider both your links apologist propaganda, so the feeling is mutual.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 04:59:31 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  what link? (0+ / 0-)

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 04:55:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  what a copout (0+ / 0-)

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 04:56:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No I don't talk to Historical Revisionists (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            or Anti-Semites. You freakin' cowards should be more open with your hatred. But you spend all day trying to look like you are reasonable. Too bad you blew your cover.

                            Well you did one thing good. You exposed yourself and your arguments for all to see.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 05:02:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  you're a damn liar (0+ / 0-)

                            what link VB?? Mondoweiss? A progressive Jewish site? or was it the Financial Times? or You Tube or J Street?

                            Those are the links I put here.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 05:05:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Solely for the purpose of clarification... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            Look in the hiddens for your comment.  I refuse to directly link to that POS site.

                            I now resume my standing policy.

                          •  For Mondoweiss oh no.... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            for wakeupfromyourslumber.com site...Who the fuck do you think you are kidding?

                            I bet the Mondoweiss people are proud to know you folks support them wholeheartedly. Yep the Pro-P side must be proud to have you folks with them. Though somehow... I doubt it. Good luck here from now on.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 05:13:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  well I got that link somewhere else (0+ / 0-)

                            I would not knowingly support a holocaust denial site. So it was an oversight on my part not evidence of my position.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 05:23:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  who the fuck do you think you're kidding (0+ / 0-)

                            you're trying to get rid of anyone who supports anyone but Israel.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 05:27:24 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Taking a very brief break from my standing policy (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            I would HR this for the outright lie you just spewed (Volley is very clearly a supporter of Israel, but also very clearly favors the right of those that are not to debate here; that is, after all, part of the purpose of this site), but I am technically in a conversation with you right here.

                            I now resume my standing policy.

                          •  then you support his lies about me too (0+ / 0-)

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 05:33:03 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  you are all cowards. (0+ / 0-)

                            you hide behind your anti-Semitic slurs because you can't face the truth. You have no idea who I am or you would never say this.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 05:15:24 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh really then... who are you? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            We are all cowards are we? We are hiding behind our Anti-Semitic slurs???? WTF are you talking about bigot.

                            Why would I not say this? You think I am scared of some f'ed up Anti-Semite? Think again.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 05:19:55 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You linked to a site (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, volleyboy1, Mets102

                            which contains Holocaust denial, CT and 9/11 conspiracy and it got HRed.  The site contains content from notorious Holocaust deniers, Institute of Historical Review.

                            How did you not notice any of that when you linked there?

                          •  We have no idea who valadon (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ubertar, Mets102

                            really is or we wouldn't say anything. We can't face the truth? I wonder what truth that is? Is it about..... TEH JOOZ??? (da-da-daaaaaaa). Oh I cannot wait to hear who this person is and what truth we can't face.

                            Do tell... pretty please with sugar on top.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 05:28:50 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  go ahead VB with your defamation (0+ / 0-)

                            have fun.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 05:31:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Umm you did this to yourself.. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ubertar, Mets102

                            YOU made the claim we wouldn't say anything if we knew who you were. YOU linked to an Anti-Semitic website. YOU said we can't face the truth. Not us. This is on you.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 05:55:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  just for your edification (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, Alec82

                            the story I posted did not originate from that site. It was a mistake to post from that site and I honestly did not know the history of that particular site VB.

                            It doesn't make the original article wrong because it was picked up by a less than credible site.

                            I am not responsible for you defaming me. YOU ARE.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 06:01:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Just be careful in the future (4+ / 0-)

                            I saw someone once link to rense.com, but the story was itself Al Jazeera.  They were HR'd for it as well.  Learn and move on; the others have links and uprates they surely cannot be proud of.  

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 06:23:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I know- It was my fault (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Alec82

                            but I don't need to be called an anti-Semite by someone who should know better than that.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 07:47:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I believe you made a mistake (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            I take you at your word.

                          •  well... (5+ / 0-)

                            you also mock and deny jewish peoplehood, even when explained how offensive and false this meme is.

                            so i suppose defamation is all in the eye of the beholder.

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 06:26:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ignorance is not a left wing... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            valadon, borkitekt

                            ....value.  

                            I find it interesting that Valadon blockquoted a link which included, inter alia, this:

                            However, even if it is founded on a myth, the state of Israel exists. Sand wants it to abandon ethnic nationalism and to modernise and democratise, and as this controversial book was a bestseller in Israel, perhaps there is hope that some Israelis want this too.

                            Discussing a book that is on the best seller list in Israel that concerns the question of modern Israeli identity is off topic because...it mocks Jewish peoplehood?

                            Of course, had anyone bothered to read the book, they would have discovered that Sand endorses the two state solution and identifies as a post-Zionist, not an anti-Zionist.  But hey, what the hell? Why don't we smear, smear, smear, to hell with things like facts?

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 06:33:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  don't confuse them with facts Alec (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Alec82

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 07:52:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You know, Alec, honestly (6+ / 0-)

                            we've run the Khazar bull down the High Street now any number of times. What genetic evidence we have apparently does not support Sands' theory. Several diaries have been written about it, and unsurprisingly, the only people even mildly interested in it have been, wait for it, the Israel critics.

                            Meanwhile, anyone who questions whether there is such a thing as a Palestinian, rightfully in my view, gets him- or herself quite the heaping helping of criticism.

                            There are Jews, and there are Palestinians. That is the only fact that should concern anyone in this conversation.

                            Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

                            by MBNYC on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 06:14:34 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  A fact not denied... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...by Sand, nor by Nachman Ben-Yehuda in his account of the use of Masada in Israeli nation building. Nor would anyone have a problem, I think, with a diary that explored the development of a collective, political Palestinian identity as a result of early Ottoman and Mandate encounters with Zionism.  

                            The anti-intellectualism of the smear artists here stinks.  

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 06:48:17 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Disagree. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102, canadian gal

                            You know I've come to respect you, but please don't pretend that the people here who tried to 'discuss' the Sands book were doing so out of some Voltairean , altruistic interest in the freedom of ideas.

                            I can't speak to the merits of the book itself, but I can and will speak to the motives of the folks who tried to use it. And that was, as ever, another excuse to try to diminish the legitimacy of the Jewish state. Because, if there are no Jews, they certainly don't need a country of their own.

                            I'm also honestly a little bit disappointed that someone of your obvious intelligence and passion would give any credence whatsoever to what seems to be no better than the Land Without A People meme.

                            Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

                            by MBNYC on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 07:02:34 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Unlike the people who... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...trashed the book, and the author, I went through the trouble of reading it.  I do not care what the motives of the people who discuss it are, the statements about the book that constitute gross distortions of the work itself should be called out for what they are.  

                            You might as well claim that Foucault wrote a book denying gay identity when he published The History of Sexuality because he took the constructivist side of the debate over sexuality.  That's the depth of most of the criticism of the work here.  

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 07:18:44 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And that was after... (6+ / 0-)

                            the Khazar claim was refuted.  That comment is from July 8th, nearly a full month after this article appeared in the New York Times, reporting that both Ashkenazim and Sephardim share a common Middle Eastern ancestry, and during that time I know that on many occasions this was offered on Daily Kos to disprove the Khazar meme, with many, many of those occasions coming prior to July 8th.

                          •  indeed. (9+ / 0-)

                            but it was a best-seller.

                            now that i think about it, there's another book that denied peoplehood that was also both a best-seller and debunked.

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 06:47:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  To quote the great John Adams... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ubertar, volleyboy1

                            Facts are stubborn things.

                            The DNA doesn't lie, and yet this still gets pushed.

                          •  Rashid Khalidi's Palestinian Identity.... (5+ / 1-)
                            Recommended by:
                            valadon, capelza, borkitekt, Tom J, heathlander
                            Hidden by:
                            thebluecrayon

                            ...is the equivalent to Sand's book, and while it doesn't "deny" Palestinian identity, it examines its development and denies that it is some ancient, primordial collective ethnic identity.  Similarly:

                            Sand's detractors portray the book as an assault on Jewish identity and the legitimacy of Israel. But he sees it as the opposite: an attempt to rescue Jewish-Israeli identity from an intellectual abyss and redeem Israeli society with a healthy dose of secular rationalism. "I wrote the book for a double purpose. First, as an Israeli, to democratise the state; to make it a real republic. Second, I wrote the book against Jewish essentialism."

                            This, Sand explains, is the tendency in modern Judaism to make shared ethnicity the basis for faith. "That is dangerous and it nourishes antisemitism. I am trying to normalise the Jewish presence in history and contemporary life."

                            The Guardian

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 06:54:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Except that Sand's book has been (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ubertar, thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            conclusively refuted.

                            Has Sand had anything to say since the release of the genetic study demonstrating the close links between Ashkenazim and Sephardim and their shared Middle Eastern ancestry?

                            Anything prior to that is now outdated because of the study.

                          •  The discussion of.. (6+ / 1-)

                            ....Khazaria is less than 10% of the book, and he doesn't reach any conclusions.  The book isn't really about whether all Jews can link their ancestry to the Middle East.  Have you read the book? Canadian Gal hasn't, but she likes to make assertions about its content, much like the author of that article.  Assertions that are not supported by what the book itself contains.  

                            The book is about how a collective national identity was developed, largely as a result of intellectual encounters with another group of ethnic nationalists, the German ethnic nationalists of the day.  And how that identity is policed today, even though it means some episodes of history (primarily those involving converts) must be downplayed.  Anyway, it is far from the scary piece of Nazi propaganda CG and others apparently believe it to be, which helps explain its popularity in Israel.  I assume that at least some of the people who helped put it on the bestseller list were Jewish.

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 07:07:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  HR abuse by bluecrayon (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            valadon, heathlander

                            But what else is new?

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 07:23:07 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  HRed for promoting (5+ / 0-)

                            a book that denies Jewish peoplehood.  It doesn't matter whether it's 10% of the book or 100%.  HRed as well for promoting a book that details the Khazar theory of Jews.

                          •  Your HR... (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            capelza, borkitekt, Tom J, heathlander

                            ...is abusive, and it will be reported.  

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 07:30:54 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Go ahead report it (7+ / 0-)

                            I will not sit by and watch as you promote a book that contains the Khazar theory of Jews.  A book that claims Jews aren't a people and that Jewish peoplehood was "invented" in the 19th Century.  Any scholar of Jewish history knows that is complete utter bullshit.  Just like your comment upthread that minimizes antisemitsm in America.  That too is Bullshit.

                            Enough!

                          •  Typical playing the victim (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            valadon, capelza, borkitekt, heathlander

                            Downthread you equate it to neo-naziism.  You really have lost it.

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 07:39:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Piss off with you and your "victim" (7+ / 0-)

                            comments.  I've experienced antisemitism in America.  Who in the hell are you to minimize that?

                            And for all of our just being 2% of this country's population, we certainly have a good share of the hate crimes:
                            http://www.fbi.gov/...

                            Here is the link to the comment in which you minimized antisemitism in America.

                            You and your Jewish peoplehood denial and antisemtism minimization can PISS OFF!  

                          •  I hadn't seen those statistics before... (6+ / 0-)

                            We're only 2% of the population and anti-Semitic attacks constitute roughly 2/3 of hate crimes related to religion.  Wow.

                          •  More irrational.. (6+ / 0-)

                            ....ranting and distortions.  No one denied that antisemitism exists in America.  No one also denies, I would hope, that Jews have achieved a high level of success and prominence in the United States, despite the existence of some antisemitism.  Is it true or false that more Jews have been killed in Israel for being Jewish than they have been in the United States? And what does that say about the idea that Israel offers security for Jews? I'm hardly the first person to observe that this argument lacks empirical support.

                            No, your victim complex is evident when you decide that you can, inter alia, cut off discussions of certain authors and subjects because it causes you hurt feelings.  That's all you can point to; nothing inherently offensive or outside of the scope of these discussions.  When you decide that you will define "Zionism" for the entire site, and render anti-Zionists who post here antisemites as a result.  

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 07:50:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Just remember - Jewish Determinism (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            arielle, ubertar, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            equals a belief in Ethnic Supremacy... Alec in his infinite wisdom and knowledge has so decreed. I can't believe you are arguing with him, he has read one or two books on being Jewish in America and knows far more about it than we do. </snark>

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 10:14:05 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I didn't equate it (6+ / 0-)

                            Learn to effin' read.  I used another ridiculous example to show how your bullshit argument that the Khazar theory is ONLY 10% of the book is just that, a bullshit argument.  Nice that you can recognize the ridiculous nature of that claim when it is about something else just not Jewish peoplehood denial.

                          •  I agree (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Alec82

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 07:50:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Phew, it was only 10% (6+ / 0-)

                            That makes it OK, then.

                          •  good question... (8+ / 0-)

                            indeed sands has responded in a new afterword for the paperback edition of the book.

                            After exhausting all the historical arguments, several critics have seized on genetics. The same people who maintain that the Zionists never referred to a race conclude their argument by evoking a common Jewish gene. Their thinking can be summed up as follows: “We are not a pure race, but we are a race just the same.” In the 1950s there was research in Israel on characteristic Jewish fingerprints, and from the 1970s, biologists in their laboratories (sometimes also in the USA) have sought a genetic marker common to all Jews. I reviewed in my book their lack of data, the frequent slipperiness of their conclusions, and their ethno-nationalist ardor, which is unsupported by any serious scientific findings. This attempt to justify Zionism through genetics is reminiscent of the procedures of late nineteenth-century anthropologists who very scientifically set out to discover the specific characteristics of Europeans.

                            As of today, no study based on anonymous DNA samples has succeeded in identifying a genetic marker specific to Jews, and it is not likely that any study ever will. It is a bitter irony to see the descendants of Holocaust survivors set out to find a biological Jewish identity: Hitler would certainly have been very pleased! And it is all the more repulsive that this kind of research should be conducted in a state that has waged for years a declared policy of “Judaization of the country” in which even today a Jew is not allowed to marry a non-Jew.

                            hey, just wondering if you have ever read from time immemorial? because i haven't and wonder if this still allows me the right to criticize denials of palestinian identity as i haven't given it a fair chance... hey maybe i should also read going rogue to decide if the critics are right about it?

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 07:27:17 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wow. He can't even admit his mistake n/t (4+ / 0-)
                          •  You have never argued with Alec (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ubertar, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            I see... he will never admit a mistake. AND remember he read books about us and Jewish experiences in America and the Diaspora so he has contextual knowledge. He knows more about being Jewish in America than we do. From a rational point of view of course.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 10:18:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually wasn't referring to Alec there... (5+ / 0-)

                            although I do agree fully with your point about the inability to admit mistakes.  CG was quoting the new afterword in the Sand book where he glosses over the genetic research, thus I was saying that Sand can't even admit he was wrong.

                          •  That depends cg, (7+ / 0-)

                            Is the book only 10% Palestinian peoplehood denial?  

                            I suppose if a book is 10% neo-nazi, it might be okay as long as the other 90% makes "valid criticisms" of Israel.

                          •  not on par with neo-nazism... (7+ / 0-)

                            imo but icky nonetheless.

                            sadly though, for someone i used to respect so in these threads, alec has a history of downplaying anti-semitism which i don't quite understand.

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 07:54:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't think they're on par (7+ / 0-)

                            just was using a ridiculous example of 10% of a book being horrible.  

                            And wow, that second comment is unbelievably bad.  I'm a bit shocked at that one.

                          •  And you have a history... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            borkitekt

                            ...of falsely accusing me of antisemitism, once directly, and now through innuendo and insinuation.  

                             

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 08:10:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  crap... (7+ / 0-)

                            and you know it. that's not what i was saying both in the hidden and now.

                            hey - but you finally got me to respond to you!

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 08:13:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And woah (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, arielle, Mets102, canadian gal

                            upthread from the comment to which you linked is this gem:

                            They weren't fleeing anti-Jewish pogroms, but they were fleeing religious persecution, poverty and the like.

                            I'm sure a lot of our families would be surprised to hear that those pogroms weren't anti-Jewish pogroms.   Completely unacceptable to deny the nature of those European pogroms.  For the history-deficient, yes those were anti-Jewish and specifically anti-Jewish pogroms.

                            What the ?

                          •  I remember that gem quite well... (5+ / 0-)

                            because if you click on parent, you'll see that he was responding to a comment that I made.

                          •  Saw that (5+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, arielle, ubertar, volleyboy1, Mets102

                            I'm so sorry.  No one should deny your family's history like that.  What a truly awful thing to say.

                            That takes some mind-bending logic or just plain ignorance to think the pogroms European Jews endured were just general religious persecution but not specifically anti-Jewish.  There is ample documentation and countless first-hand accounts of those events.

                            Also, I can't remember with whom I had the conversation here, but many Jews do not self-identify as "white."  Sure they may check that box on a form for convenience, because there isn't a "Jewish" option or because they don't wish to identify as "Jewish" on a form.  But IRL, there is not a consensus among American Jews that we identify as "white."  There are varied opinions, but someone else doesn't get to just designate us "white" for their own reasons.

                            Mental gymnastics.  I'm at a loss.

                          •  Thanks. (4+ / 0-)

                            I don't know how to really classify ourselves racially.  I guess I say I'm white just for sake of convenience because I have skin that's pink in color.  However, if someone asks me my ethnicity, I quickly and unequivocally state that I'm Jewish.  I remember one time discussing the issue with people who weren't Jewish, and I explained that it doesn't matter where a Jew comes from, what their skin color is, or whatever else, I consider them to be the same ethnicity as me, whether they're Mizrachi, Sephardi, Ethiopian, or fellow Ashkenazi.

                          •  No no no (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, ubertar, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            They were political manifestations of peasant frustration toward a landed and monied class.. See, they weren't frustrated with us Jews. No, we were "good Jews". And we didn't need to go anywhere or have a refuge because... (well I will let AM explain that one).

                            No they were merely seeing Jews as manifestations of gentry and were mis-informed about us. They really didn't hate us. No one did or does. No... we just have to be understanding of the socio-economic forces at work.

                            What can't you see that. PLUS our ancestors the Khazars wiped out everyone.. it was just revenge. Oh wait... what I said above... no wait... aaaargh
                            </snark>

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:33:17 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I need to get photoshop (5+ / 0-)

                            to draw up a chart, to keep it straight. ;)

                            And to make up a I/P bingo card:

                            Dual loyalty

                            Holocaust denial

                            Err, pogroms weren't anti-Jewish

                            Saying Jews control the media isn't an antisemitic idea, because it's true.

                            July would've been a good month for bingo.  

                          •  Can I have (5+ / 0-)

                            "Fucked up things brain dead assholes say about Jewish people" for $ 400.00 Alex..

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 11:51:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!! n/t (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1
                          •  Vicious liar (0+ / 0-)

                            Err, pogroms weren't anti-Jewish

                            Actual quote:

                            A common immigrant experience, shared with many other groups.  They weren't fleeing anti-Jewish pogroms, but they were fleeing religious persecution, poverty and the like.  

                            I wasn't saying that they weren't fleeing anti-Jewish pogroms, I was saying that other European immigrant groups weren't, but that they were fleeing poverty, religious persecution, etcetera.  

                            Your lies are amazing.  Would any other poster get away with this in these threads, apart from our eggshell ethnic nationalists?  Probably not.

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 05:12:15 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Then perhaps you should be more careful (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            with your language.  What you wrote could easily be read either way, and to someone who had great-grandparents that fled it, I read it the same way bluecrayon did, that you were saying they were fleeing for economic reasons, and not because of pogroms; and I know that's not the case because my family in Latvia was very well off, with their own farm and servants, and they gave that all up and came to the US to become poor Jewish immigrants.

                            If you wanted to communicate that about other groups, then you should say so explicitly, rather than using language that could very easily be read completely differently, particularly by the person it's addressed to.

                          •  I did (0+ / 0-)

                            The second statement is from my original reply to you, because you expressed a need for similar clarification.  Theblucrayon has no excuse for the lie here, nor do you for your endorsement of it.

                            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

                            by Alec82 on Sat Jul 31, 2010 at 09:14:22 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Like no one has ever been unclear before... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sofia, Alec82
                          •  Hey guys, the IP rule is that neither side can (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Alec82

                            try to bind the other with nazi ties to contaminate the other side's position or argument. Not just the other side from yours. Kindly quit it.

                          •  The rule is actually no Nazi analogies (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102, canadian gal

                            Meaning do not compare  Jewish, Israeli, Muslim, Arab or Palestinian person/group to Nazis.

                            I was not making such a comparison.  As I explained twice above, I was using a ridiculous example to show that saying "only 10%" of a book is offensive is a ridiculous defense.

                            Moreover though most of do not compare people to neo-Nazis, it's not clear whether or not the no Nazi analogy applies to neo-Nazis and KKK.  A couple weeks ago, people were comparing Israelis to the KKK.  You seemed to be making an opposite argument then.  I think that's OTL, but it's not clear whether the rule applies there or not.
                             
                            So just to be clear I was not making a comparison.  I was doing that argumentative tactic whereby one exaggerates to show the falseness of someone's argument.  It would've been clearer if I had put a "for example" or some such qualifier.  

                          •  Clarification (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102

                            Though myself and others thought those KKK comparisons were OTL and HRable, MB was not willing to say it was HR abuse because of what he saw as an inconsistency of outrage.  It wasn't clear, to me, from his response whether that means neo-Nazis and KKK fall under the no Nazi analogy rule or not.

                          •  I think neo-Nazi is out of bounds because... (5+ / 0-)

                            ...neo-Nazis ARE Nazis. So I would bust somebody for that. But I think the KKK stuff is best handled by community, not admin moderation.

                            Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

                            by Meteor Blades on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 05:00:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  When did I do that (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Alec82

                            you are lying. You've had it out for me for awhile so cut the crap.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 07:48:39 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Do you have TU valadon? (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102, canadian gal

                            If you don't, maybe that's why you're not seeing the comment cg posted.

                            I can cut and paste if you want.

                          •  I already saw it since I posted it (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Alec82

                            don't do me any favors.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 08:00:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Okay, I won't (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102, canadian gal

                            Should I also take back my post where I said I took you at your word that you didn't know about that site?

                            I'm sorry for trying to help you out.  Take care.

                          •  it didn't really help did it? (0+ / 0-)

                            your friends smelled blood and they can't stop themselves. I've been a member here since this forum began and suddenly I'm anti-semitic because I got a link from a site I was unaware of? Is this how people are supposed to be treated when I made every effort to be fair and even shared some good conversations with VB and others.

                            All of you rushed to judgement about me, although, I will grant that you said you took my word and I'll have to take your word that you were being sincere.

                            Anyone can read my history here..so for two things that some people found objectionable in my whole history here they chose to attack me.

                          •  I have never been against Israeli personhood (5+ / 0-)

                            it is a blatant lie. She's just a vindictive person who has tried to pin something on me for some time.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 08:03:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  HR'ed for the blatant, and IMO, malicious, (3+ / 0-)

                            personal attack on CG. You say that she's trying to pin something on you, then prove it and I'll remove my HR.

                            As to your denying "Israeli" personhood, it's not about that.  It's about your denying the peoplehood of the Jewish People.

                            Per the link provided by CG you promote Sand's book.  Further down thread you then go on to say:

                            I know about the DNA but heavens don't let me keep you from your desire to HR me....that much was made obvious last time we met.

                            You, however, don't get to tell me what to post. And I'd tell you what to do with your polemicists but...

                            PS  CG, I apologize for recc'ing the comment I've quoted. It was certainly a very, very poor rec.  I'm guessing that it was a mishit on my part since I rec'd your comments immediately upthread where you explicitly state that Sand should not be cited.

                          •  it's true even MB knows that she was inssistent (0+ / 0-)

                            about an HR I gave and was trying to discredit me. You ought to know your facts first.

                            HR abuse. you've been arguing with me elsewhere.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 08:19:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  .... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1, Mets102

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 08:21:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Where were you when someone (0+ / 0-)

                            maliciously attacked me and called me an anti-Semite huh Mets?

                          •  have fun Mets but I believe (0+ / 0-)

                            you've disputed me elsewhere and now you are using HR abuse.You people are pathetic.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 08:18:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Temporarily breaking my standing policy (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, canadian gal

                            solely for the purposes of clarification.

                            Please see this.

                            Also, please see this, and specifically this:

                            Trolling, defined, is not simply disagreeing with your opinion or the collective site opinion. It is engaging in behavior which is directly contrary to the stated goals of the site -- furthering the progressive Democratic agenda. There are a number of things which very clearly constitute "trolling", and which should be troll rated (and therefore deleted from the conversation) quite legitimately...

                            Personal attacks on other site users

                            You launched a personal attack on CG when you stated the following:

                            She's just a vindictive person who has tried to pin something on me for some time.

                            I now resume my standing policy.

                          •  And, as I said when first explaining the HR (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, canadian gal

                            prove your case and I will remove the HR

                          •  I can't tell the order of the comments (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102, canadian gal

                            but if you were in conversation with valadon, I don't believe you can HR him/her.

                            The comments at this point in the thread are all bunched to the side, so it's hard to follow the parent order.

                          •  I wasn't in conversation here... (3+ / 0-)

                            and per what Red Sox said above, so long as you're not in that thread and something is clearly HR'able.

                            This is where Valadon starts participating in the thread, and as you can see my input is very minimal and not directed towards Valadon (with the exception of something solely for purposes of clarification, which I make abundantly clear) before donutting the comment.

                          •  Okay. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102, canadian gal

                            I thought you were say that you were making an exception to the HRing while in conversation rule, but you were actually saying you were making an exception to clarify something before HRing.  My mistake.

                            It bugs the hell out of me that the same people who HR denial of Palestinian peoplehood, not only uprate but literally promote this book.  I don't get why there are so many people who think it's okay.  I just don't.  

                          •  I'm guessing that... (3+ / 0-)

                            Jewish peoplehood doesn't fit the meme.  I really don't understand the mental twisting required to on the one hand cite the Sand book, but at the same time acknowledge the DNA evidence.

                          •  Donut needed elsewhere n/t (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon
                          •  I did not know that (0+ / 0-)

                            believe it or not, and you probably won't.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 05:32:05 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're right (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            I don't and after your little screed about we wouldn't say anything if we knew who you were and we can't handle the truth. Yeah you fucked up and exposed yourself for what you really are. Not my problem.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 06:09:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Holocaust denial (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102

                            "Holocaust revisionism" is the term Holocaust deniers prefer, so let's not give them that satisfaction.

                          •  not to mention that I was (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon

                            addressing Aunt Martha not you...sorta blows the whole theory.

                            Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

                            by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 04:49:26 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  Judging from the often mentioned newspapers; (0+ / 0-)

              recent articles, a number of otherwise improbable because very very conservative Israeli pols are thinking about the one state solution very hard because they can't figure out how the two state can ever be made to work. It's an interesting conversation to read about, but it is not an outsider's problem alone. Not anymore.

  •  I'm glad -I hope even more eyes (7+ / 0-)

    open up. It is despicable what just happened to the Bedouins in the Negev. More ethnic cleansing! Brutes!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/...

    I agree with the boycott and am glad that even American companies are stepping up.

    Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

    by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 10:56:49 AM PDT

  •  People may be uninformed, but they're not stupid, (7+ / 0-)

    or generally amoral.  The realities of the occupation have been hidden for a long time.  The curtain is being pulled back.

    Tomdispatch had a great diary/article about Andrew Bacevich relating Israeli and US motives for militarism.  Maybe if the regional problem can be solved (Israel), the global problem can be solved (US).

    Hopefully this determined process of exposure can be translated to our own own deeply-flawed, perpetual (is that redundant) wars.

    Thanks for the diary.  

    "Dega dega dega dega. Break up the concrete..." The Pretenders

    by Terra Mystica on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 01:37:09 PM PDT

  •  Oh, blah. (5+ / 0-)

    Quick, stop the presses: comments on the internet hostile to Israel prove a massive shift in U.S. public opinion!!!

    When did this place stop being the reality-based community? Or, more precisely, when did we throw the idea that we base our factual observations on stuff like 'data', not 'Frank Luntz'?

    Alright, carry on.

    Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

    by MBNYC on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 01:59:23 PM PDT

  •  the minute you appeared I'd guess (0+ / 0-)

    Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

    by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 02:00:57 PM PDT

  •  Via Mondoweiss (0+ / 0-)

    Lord Chris Patten, president of Medical Aid for Palestinians, has an important piece in the Financial Times describing the cruel reality built by the peace process. There's a firewall/registration at the FT. I've excerpted a lot of the piece below.

    http://mondoweiss.net/...

    In the West Bank you see more construction of large urban developments than I have seen anywhere in Europe (apart from perhaps the southern Andalusia coast before the credit crunch). These are primarily Israeli settlements, the colonies planted illegally in Palestinian territory and now housing about half a million people. There are 149 of these colonies according to the UN’s Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs and there are a further 100 outposts – the smaller “facts on the ground” that are destined to grow.

    http://www.ft.com/...

    Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

    by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:57:24 PM PDT

  •  Negev (0+ / 0-)

    Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

    by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 03:59:55 PM PDT

  •  unbelieveable-this is America? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    capelza, borkitekt

    Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Ranking Member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, is proposing kicking the Palestinians' diplomatic representatives out of the United States, and is asking colleagues in the House to join her in a letter to that effect to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

    http://action.jstreet.org/...

    Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

    by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 04:17:35 PM PDT

  •  A state afraid of its past (0+ / 0-)

    A state afraid of its past
    The role of the security establishment and intelligence services is to protect the state in the present, not to hide the past.

    Haaretz Editorial

    http://www.haaretz.com/...

    go ahead hide this.

    Language is wine upon the lips. -Virginia Woolf

    by valadon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 05:46:35 PM PDT

  •  new media, old story. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ubertar, thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

    not buying what's being sold here.

  •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
  •  So where's... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1, Mets102

    ...the memo?  I'd like to square it away with this as soon as possible, thank you.

  •  Thanks for the diary, fsb! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zannie, Terra Mystica

    Perhaps he is targeting Meg Ryan in this piece because, unlike Costello, her response is the tip of an iceberg in Hollywood sentiment.  Like the conflict-avoiding girl-next-door Marcia Brady, Ryan broke her date with Israel by saying, "something suddenly came up."  Few in Hollywood want to speak out as Costello has.  However, many are finding lots of other reasons not to go, because Isreali promoters are having a hard time getting top tier stars and acts to come to Israel.

    "Trolling is a sad reality of internet life...Directly replying to the content of a trollish message is usually a waste of time"

    by Rusty Pipes on Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 10:40:01 AM PDT

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