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CNN has a new poll revealing that 68% of Americans oppose the "Ground Zero Mosque" -- including 54% of Democrats, 45% of liberals, 72% of whites and 58% of non-whites.

But this is a case where you have to look at the question to understand what the poll means. The question:

As you may know, a group of Muslims in the U.S. plan to build a mosque two blocks from the site in New York City where the World Trade Center used to stand. Do you favor or oppose this plan?

When you ask the question with those words, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that you're going to find a lot of opposition. It's not just that it frames the issue in the same way that Republican have framed it, it's also that it completely sidesteps questions of tolerance and religious freedom.

The question didn't even explicitly ask whether people believed the government should intervene to outlaw the mosque; it merely asked whether people supported plans by American Muslims to build it. Those two questions are not synonymous.

CNN also didn't ask people whether they felt government should ban Muslims from choosing their own place of worship, nor did they ask whether all religious groups in America, even unpopular ones, deserve the same level of protection from the first amendment.

I'd have liked to see the answer to these questions:

Do you believe the New York City government should forbid American Muslims from building a private house of worship anywhere in the vicinity of where the World Trade Center used to stand?

And:

Do you believe that every religious group, including the American Muslims building a house of worship two blocks from where the World Trade Center used to stand, deserves the same protection from the First Amendment's protection of religious liberty?

Or, even succinctly:

Should the government control who builds houses of worship and where they're located?

Those questions (or questions worded similarly) get at the core question which is whether or not government ought to ban American Muslims from practicing freedom of religion. You don't need to be an active proponent of building the mosque to also believe that the government shouldn't ban it. And assuming you don't believe government should ban it, it's not hard to see that the only motive for opposing the mosque is bigotry. And that then raises the next obvious question I'd love to hear people answer: do you support the Republican Party's bigoted attacks on people of the Islamic faith?

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:46 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Sounds like (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    nonnie9999, commonmass

    perfect PPP / DKos poll questions.  :)

    Show me on the doll where Rahm touched you.

    by taylormattd on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:48:08 PM PDT

    •  Polls are fun… (3+ / 0-)

      …according to this Fox News poll, 73% of all Americans support gay marriage.

      Teh stoopidTM, it hurts. Buy smart, union-printed, USA-made, signs, stickers, swag for everyone: DemSign.com

      by DemSign on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:31:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The CNN poll question today was specifically (0+ / 0-)

        worded in the exact manner to elicit a very specific response:

        Should the 14th Amendment be changed so that illegal immigrants' children don't automatically become U.S. citizens?

        Repealing the 14th amendment would have ramifications far beyond that of just allowing children of illegal immigrants to automatically become citizens, but you'd never know it from the question as worded.

        Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein

        by legalchic on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 06:47:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Why would they ask? (0+ / 0-)

          As far as I know, there is no significant movement to repeal the 14th Amendment. The only proposal I've heard more lately is to add an amendment that would have the effect of altering the first sentence of Section 1 and not affect anything else in the 14th Amendment.

          Why would CNN ask about repealing the entire 14th Amendment - which you seem to be implying is the question they should have asked instead? Would you prefer even more if they had asked about repealing every word of the Constitution?

          The question they asked seems to be neutrally representative of the proposals to amend the Constitution that we've been hearing more loudly for the past few weeks. It would be misleading to ask and report about a broader question that virtually no one is even talking about.

          •  I'm not implying anything. I didn't pose ... (0+ / 0-)

            the question.  Why did they? That's a good question.  Why did they word in the manner they did? That's another good question.  The repeal of the 14th is one of those election year wedge issues Rethugs like to throw into the mix to stir up their base even more.  Given what it would actually take to repeal it, we know the chances of repeal actually happening are pretty slim.  

            I don't know why CNN asked the question in the first place, and I don't know why they worded it to single out children of illegal immigrants.

            Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein

            by legalchic on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 08:12:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Let me try this one more time... (0+ / 0-)

              Where is there any proposal with significant backing to repeal the 14th Amendment? The proposal that is being batted about is to amend the Constitution to alter one part of the 14th Amendment. This is completely different than repealing the entire amendment which includes many other important provisions.

              I can't read CNN's corporate mind, but I would guess that the reason they asked this question was because it asks about a proposal that is currently in the news. For them to ask how people feel about repealing the 14th Amendment would make no more sense than asking how people feel about repealing the Third Amendment - neither proposal is being discussed seriously right now so it's just not newsworthy.

              Are you intentionally misrepresenting the proposal by equating it to a blanket repeal of the 14th Amendment for some reason? Perhaps you're doing this to make it seem even more S_C_A_R_Y? You can do that if you like (the First Amendment preserves that right for you -- and, no, CNN probably didn't ask people what they feel about repealing the First Amendment either), but it's really not very rational to expect CNN to go along with your meme.

              •  And let ME try this one more time (0+ / 0-)

                because you seem intent on inferring something by my question which you believe to be regarding repeal of the 14th Amendment. I don't give a shit what is floating out there about repeal - one section, the entire 14th (depending on what I've read - it's the entire 14th), who's pushing for repeal, but that isn't what my question re CNN's wording was about.  WHY did CNN have to point out that repealing the 14th would prevent children of ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS from becoming citizens? Why didn't they just simply ask: Do you support repeal of the 14th? The question was worded in a baiting manner - to play on people's prejudices and fears regarding illegal immigrants.

                I look at CNN a few times a day - for headlines mostly, but I do scan the front page to see what the "question of the day" is. I find the wording of their questions, particularly re hot button political topics, to be geared to elicit a specific lean in one direction of the responses.  The diary I was responding to was specifically about CNN and "it's all in the wording."  That was the point of MY initial comment.  The rest your response goes into the why's and wherefore's of the issue of repeal, which I don't give a shit about.  My point was about CNN's wording of a question, period.

                Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein

                by legalchic on Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 06:52:52 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Logic has left the building. (0+ / 0-)

                  Just as a refresher, the question you quoted was:

                  Should the 14th Amendment be changed so that illegal immigrants' children don't automatically become U.S. citizens?

                  This captures exactly what the current debate is about. There is no serious current debate about repealing the 14th Amendment. The distinction of "illegal immigrants" is important, because I'm not aware of any serious current debate about not automatically granting citizenship to children born in the US to immigrant parents who are in the country legally with resident or citizen status (there may be some debate about parents who are here on temporary, but unexpired, visas - that I'm not sure of, but that's a relatively minor issue that would get worked out in the actual drafting exercise).

                  If you want to point out something about CNN's bias, maybe you would be more persuasive if you didn't pick an example which doesn't support your position at all. You seem to be suggesting that CNN should have asked an inflammatory "push poll" type question which asked about the repeal of the 14th Amendment (a question with no relevance to any significant current events because the topic isn't on the table) as opposed to the question they did ask (which directly addresses a "hot" current event). It's apparent that what you want is push polling -- just done on CNN's dime and with your bias -- rather than the neutral and topical question they did ask.

                  You might not "give a shit" about if there is current serious debate about repealing the 14th Amendment, but if there isn't, your criticism of the poll question just makes no sense - so, in essence, it seems to me that you are saying you don't "give a shit" about the relevant facts that would make a poll question biased or not. Surely you see that if the current serious debate is not about repealing the 14th Amendment in its entirety and is only about denying automatic citizenship to children born here to parents who are not in the country legally, your complaints about the CNN question are hollow?

                  Hopefully when you are trying to win over people to your side outside of DK (where, on most topics, the debate is minimal as there is fairly widespread agreement) you don't make arguments with as many logic flaws as you did in this case -- that will only tend to serve to get you, and possibly the position you are promoting, ignored and ridiculed.

                  •  Oh, bullshit. (0+ / 0-)

                    You don't see my point of view. Fine.  My logic seems perfectly fine to others I've asked (in and out of DK), because they, too, have an issue with the way CNN words its polls.  My issue is with CNN's use of wording in its question, not about repeal of the 14th. That wasn't the subject of the diary to which I was responding, and wasn't the subject of my comment. It was CNN's question of the day, not mine.  I'm not trying to "win" anyone over. I'm asking a question in a diary to specifically prove the point of the diary.  It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.  

                    You disagree.  Fine.  Let it go already.

                    Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein

                    by legalchic on Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 01:36:51 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  You Gave Me an Ah-Ha Moment (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zett

      The third question is how we should be talking about this. "So when did the 'Keep Government Out Of It' conservatives decides it's OK for the government to tell a religious organization where they can build their house of worship?"

      It turns out news delivered on a for-profit basis is a bad business model for democracy.

      by George Lynch on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:41:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I at least give the pollster credit for saying (10+ / 0-)

    the Mosque isn't actually at the site of the former WTC. That is a widely held misperception, that the mosque actually is at Ground Zero.

  •  CNN's question sounds like a push poll. n/t (7+ / 0-)

    "When you want to go forward ... you put it in 'D,' "When you want to go back ... you put it in 'R.' " ... President Obama 8/2.

    by BarackStarObama on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:50:00 PM PDT

  •  Because You're Not a Corporation With Your Own (10+ / 0-)

    private constitutional right to promote your interests with no obligation to society.

    CNN however is.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:52:02 PM PDT

  •  cnn likes to word their poll questions... (6+ / 0-)

    so that they can waste lots of hours talking about the results, and they have an excuse for employing asswipes like erick erickson.


    larger version

    I didn't get Jack from Abramoff...I'm not a Republican!

    by nonnie9999 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:52:02 PM PDT

  •  By saying a "group of Muslims plans to build," (9+ / 0-)

    makes it sound, right off, like some secretive type organization that could be up to something sinister.

    With Obama's Presidency, I feel the enduring pain of every teabagger, and believe me, I completely enjoy it.

    by pollbuster on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:52:46 PM PDT

  •  Or, to get to the real point about prejudice... (6+ / 0-)

    Would you object if Jews or Christians wanted to open a house of worship near Ground Zero?

    OR

    If you oppose Muslims openly worshipping their religion, then do you also oppose others openly worshipping their religions?

    OR

    Do you believe worship of Islam should be an exception to our guaranteed Freedom of Religion as promised by the First Amendment?  

    If you answered "yes" to above question, then does that mean you believe the U.S. Constitution should be subject to that type of activist interpretation?

    If you answered "yes" to both questions above, then you obviously believe the Second Amendment is not fundamentally untouchable, correct?

    •  I hate to say it, but (0+ / 0-)

      I think you'd be shocked and disappointed with the answers you'd get to your second and third possibilities. They would make sense, but they'd be pretty clear.

      The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

      by sidnora on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:06:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not really (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sidnora, esquimaux

        I'd be disappointed, but not shocked.  At least it would lay out, in no uncertain terms, an ideological debate we can have about what it really means to believe in fundamental Constitutional rights.

        And more than that - it would show that worship of weaponry trumps worship of God, and you can attack the hypocrisy of that point of view any way you like.

    •  there's already a church right near there (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      susanala

      doesn't Trinity Wall Street have a chapel one block from Ground Zero?

      "Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D."

      by TrueBlueMajority on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:20:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  IDK - but I do know this (6+ / 0-)

    I am apparently paying too much for auto insurance.

  •  "A group of Muslims . . . ." (12+ / 0-)

    Not:  "American citizens who are Muslim . . . ."

    WTF?  Let's frame the beginning of a few more questions, shall we?

    "A group of gun-lovers want to build a meeting house near a school . . . ."

    "A group of racists want to hold a rally at the Lincoln memorial on the anniversery of Martin Luther King Day . . . ."

    "A group of white people want to dismantle the Constitution . . . ."

    "A group of religious people want to burn books . . . ."

    "A group of family members want to display hate signs at a dead soldiers funeral . . . ."

    "A group of politicians want to give tax breaks to the rich and cut benefits for the unemployed . . . ."

    "We think the truth is bad enough. It obviously is." -- Fishgrease

    by gchaucer2 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:53:42 PM PDT

    •  You've got it. I was looking for the big picture (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zett

      The "A group of."  You've parceled it out and shown how it applies to anything.

      Thereby, in this case, instantly giving the impression of a bunch of beardie-weirdie anarchist anti-capitalist bomb throwers who've walked straight out of a Joseph Conrad novel and into the 21st century, reincarnated as a bunch of turban-wearing, Koran-wielding infidels hell bent on threatening people.  As opposed to a community center to assist with peoples' grief and memories.

      "A group of" is definitely a three word sequence to remember to avoid like the plague when I'm designing a questionnaire!

    •  Are they all citizens? (0+ / 0-)

      Would your formation

      "American citizens who are Muslim . . . ."

      even be correct?
      Is everyone involved in "wanting" to build the community center a US Citizen (versus, for example, in the US on an H-1B visa)? I don't know the answer to this question and I don't know how CNN could reasonably get the answer to this question.

  •  bullshit.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Champurrado

    it is absolutley a slap in the face of those who died,

    •  By what logic (13+ / 0-)

      did you arrive at that conclusion?

      You called BS, now you get to explain why.

    •  Muslims died in the towers too (12+ / 0-)

      many Muslims probably came to the aid of non-muslims.  This is not hollow ground!  In fact there are other Mosques in the area that have been there for many years.  This is just another distraction to an already frightened country - no jobs, no home, and the Corporations and their stooges are jerking our chains over a mosque.  Really!?

    •  Who died where? (11+ / 0-)

      Remember that the proposed sight of the mosque is two Lower Manhattan blocks away from "ground zero", a distance away from where anyone died on 9/11.

    •  if you think all muslims are responsible for this (11+ / 0-)

      then you must be a rather nervous sort. Their are 1 billion muslims. If even 5% of Muslims were actively trying to kill us, we'd all be dead.  We all survive as a result of the amazing fact that most people are not murderous nuts.

    •  Are you aware (10+ / 0-)

      that Muslims died in the attack in greater numbers than they are represented in the population at large? Brokers in financial companies and busboys at Windows on the World.

      Think about the slap in the face this controversy is to their families.

      The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

      by sidnora on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:08:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I look forward to visiting and worshipping at (5+ / 0-)

      this center; the 9/11 thing was not caused by islam.

      "Our 'neoconservatives' are neither new nor conservative, but old as Babylon and evil as Hell" - Edward Abbey

      by stormserge on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:09:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I will join you in worshipping there (5+ / 0-)

        and I am not a Muslim. But, I have been in plenty of mosques, including one in Istanbul that happens also to be one of the very holiest sites in all of Christianity as well: Hagia Sophia.

        It bothered me not one whit that it is now a mosque. Like Jesus teaches, I did my praying sliently. And disturbed no one.

        Jeepers, can't we all just get along?

        I ask myself daily: "Why do people hate gays so much?" There is never a good answer.

        by commonmass on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:46:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  can't wait to see you try to defend that remark! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SlowNomad, commonmass, stormserge

      "Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D."

      by TrueBlueMajority on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:10:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  aoeu (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SlowNomad, commonmass, susanala

      Why don't you support the Constitution?

    •  That's what I think. But isn't it a (0+ / 0-)

      marvelous work and a wonder to see the liberals (I still consider myself one) are LEAPING to the defense of the building? It's as though all they care about is showing anyone who thinks the way you and I (and all those others) do that we're bigots and ratbags and intolerant so-and-sos. Dissenting opinions cannot possibly be valid, you see. Yet these same folks scream bloody murder if any Muslim anywhere is made, even inadvertently, to hear the name of Jesus or any reference to any other religion but Islam. The Crusaaaaaaaaaaaades!!!!!!

      I knew a long time ago that there were liberals too liberal even for me, and now I'm sure of it.

      •  Not the way I see it (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SlowNomad, schroeder, commonmass

        The way I see it first Islam was not part of 911 in the first place and second it's a free country who the fuck cares where they build a mosque. I don't even care if it's a mosque or a "community center". They can build it next to my house. Who cares. 911 was not an "Islamic attack" anymore than the Murrah bombing was a "Christian attack". Should we allow a church next to the Murrah building in OKC?

        •  Of course not. Churches are hotbeds of the thrice (0+ / 0-)

          evil Christian religion.

          If you want to nitpick about "Islam was not part of 9/11" then you indeed cannot say that OKC was a "Christian" attack. You get a kudo [sic] for pointing that out. But I'm with the other guy: part of Islam or not, no consideration seems to be being given to those who indeed find it a slap in the face. Instead, they're being told to shut up and suck it up. Is perception, in this case building an Islamic center near the site, not important? Far fewer objections would surely have been raised if the chosen place were anywhere but there.

          •  Their objection (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            schroeder, esquimaux, commonmass

            is little more than veiled bigotry. Bottom line. In group, out group. Not our culture. That's the way they see it.

            Islam did not bomb America!

            •  See? Just what I was saying: nobody who (0+ / 0-)

              thinks that putting the building so close to the WTC site can possibly be anything but a "not our culture" bigot and [insert list of epithets here]. I cannot but believe that you would cheer on the citizens of Jeddah for sending packing anyone who wanted to open a Christian center.

          •  How far (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            commonmass

            How far is far enough away?  4 blocks?  5 blocks?  10?  Why?  

            •  Oh, I'm sure you can guess why. (0+ / 0-)

              Honestly: does no one here care why people might object? Are you completely baffled by the concept? You all can hide behind your smug dismissals about "veiled bigotry" and the like, but I am staggered by the complete lack of empathy on display. I didn't lose anyone on 9/11, but I know people who did. Good, thoughtful people. Would you care to wager how many of them are deeply offended by the idea of an Islamic center so near the site?

              What the hell is wrong with you folks? Liberals are famous for their bleeding hearts, but I see no consideration whatever for those who oppose the building.

              •  The Why (0+ / 0-)

                was for why a certain distance vs. 2 blocks.  Why is 10 blocks better than 2 blocks?  But you can keep on with your strawmen.  You appear to have a VERY big chip on your shoulder.  Sorry you're so very angry.  It must really suck.

              •  I guess I'll have to (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jm214

                bring up the Murrah building again. Tim McVeigh was a Christian. He bombed the Murrah buiding in Oklahoma City killing 168 people. Why does no one object to the presence of churches near the site of the former Murrah building? Why is there no huge outcry when a "group of Christians plans to build a church two blocks from the site of the former Murrah building"? Why? Because people realize Christianity did not attack America on April 19, 1995. A crazy person did.

                But here with the ground zero mosque, there are those who are offended by it. Why? Why is it an issue if a mosque or Muslim community center is to be built near the WTC? Islam did not attack America on 911 just like Christianity did not attack America on April 19, 1995.

              •  Wow -- "complete lack of empathy." I'm sure (0+ / 0-)

                those who oppose are all doing it with tears of empathetic sorrow in their eyes for the families and survivors, rather than tears of RAGE because one of the hot buttons in their limbic systems, that wonderful part of our brains where sex and violence and fear and tribalism and all that come together in a merry circle dance. My dogs wandered in between two fire ant mounds the other day. In addition to getting bitten themselves, they provoked a merry border war. Kind of like a few Israeli GIs and a few Lebanese GIs the other day, and who knows, when the real circumstances are totally clouded by tribal responses and shouting from the sidelines, what the Truth of the matter is, and everyone knows it doesn't matter because they've all chosen up sides and think they own the right of it...

                We are all, all too human, and thus too stupid as a mass to recognize how we really react and emote and keep stepping one foot closer to the precipice.

                Like the T-shirt I got in Vietnam says, lying there somewhere in storage, "Kill 'em all, and let GOD sort 'em out!"

                "Is that all there is?" Peggy Lee.

                by jm214 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 06:19:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  We all do have limbic systems and so the (0+ / 0-)

                  response of a whole lot of people shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.

                  Well, I tried, but I can see that I'm getting nowhere. It's late and I've beaten my head against the wall quite enough for one night.

              •  The only basis one would have (0+ / 0-)

                for opposing the community center is if you blame muslims at large for the attack.  Im not sure what to call anyone who does that other than bigoted, or greatly misguided if I wanted to be nice.

                I see no other reason why anyone would oppose the center.

                Some right wingers were going around being like "hur hur let's get back at them by building a gay bar right next door!" apparently thinking that we would all go apeshit about it "offending" them without realizing that there were something like 3 gay bars already within a half mile of where the center is being built.

          •  Please explain how rights are divided up here. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sidnora, zett, jm214

            Like, if I was friend's of a fire fighter I get 20 times the Constitutional rights of the average Joe.
            Thus, if I am 'affronted' you need 20 opponents to equal what my vote is. Is that it?

            What is interesting is that certain notions of the tribal left that I have always been against are coming back to bite us in the ass. By that I mean, a certain kind of infantile politics wherein if your feelings are hurt, or something 'bothers' you, you can restrain the rights of others.

          •  Perhaps you missed this (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            schroeder

            when I posted it upthread:

            Are you aware that Muslims died in the attack in greater numbers than they are represented in the population at large? Brokers in financial companies and busboys at Windows on the World.

            Think about the slap in the face this controversy is to their families.

            Some other facts: there's already a mosque down there. The imam of that mosque, who's the prime mover behind the building of the community center, has expressly stated that he wants the center to be an beacon of moderate Islam and a counter to extremism.

            Although I stated above that I don't think being a New Yorker gives me any more right to an opinion on this than anyone else (I think it's the business of the people who are building it), I should also mention that I work with a bunch of other New Yorkers of many faiths, all of whom I like and respect, several of whom are Muslim (I am Jewish), and your comments offend me on their behalf.

            Do you know any Muslims personally, or are you forming your opinions based on abstractions?

            The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

            by sidnora on Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 04:35:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I agree. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chiniqua, jm214

      This bigoted, red-meat pseudo issue is an affront to the people who died. Imagine how they would feel if they knew their deaths were used to fulminate against the Constitution and to prop up a dying political agenda that cannot provide solutions to real problems.

      So I agree. Palin,the ADL, et al, are a slap in the face to those who died.

    •  bs (0+ / 0-)

      Sparty is absolutly right.  I mean come on, it would be like if they allowed Christian churches to be built in Oklahoma City or something!

  •  Well, Islam is a pretty (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pozzo, commonmass

    unpopular religion in US so I doubt even changed wording will make much of difference. Internals are about what you'd expect on an issue like this.

  •  I gotta tell ya.... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    esquimaux, crose, commonmass, jm214

    The questions you posit are not synonymous as you say, but they are not mutually exclusive.  It is bigotry, but it's also fear.  Americans have had fear of Islam rammed down their throats for ten years.  

    What I'd like to understand his how the Republican policy of so overtly fomenting racism can possibly efficacious in the long term and how the fuck they get away with it.

    brainspank.org

  •  Not a single teabagger (5+ / 0-)

    would answer this in the negative:

    Should the government control who builds houses of worship and where they're located?

    even though they are whining to "take the country back" and have less, little or no government control in their lives. See, it's all about what the government is controlling.

    "Ground zero" is not sacred ground. It is the site of a terrible tragedy that never would have happened if the politicians and leaders of this country would have ceased their hatred and need to control Muslims and their oil long ago. We don't have a sacred right to the world's oil, food, water, minerals, women, children or any other thing rich white men think they can control with enough weaponry and money. And we certainly don't have a sacred right to some prime real estate in Lower Manhattan.

  •  Quite a few Conservatives... (8+ / 0-)

    need to get their periodic bigot 'fix' and Muslims are an 'acceptable' dog for them to kick right now.

    It goes in waves, sometimes with very short cycles.  

    A few weeks ago, bashing Latinos was in vogue.  Now it's another group of predominantly brown people, only this time its religion that binds that grouping together as a focus for their hate.

    If your brown, and can be lumped together in some fashion, the conservatives will get around to hating you eventually.  

    I think there's a list somewhere, so that they can stay coordinated.

    "I think I ate your chocolate squirrel." - Brick Tamland

    by Bonsai66 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:57:39 PM PDT

  •  What a surprise! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    crose

    All the folks here who believe, BELIEVE that poll results mean everything, who live for the poll numbers and argue about the poll numbers as if they are some kind of running plebiscite, discount the poll numbers and try to bolster or demean the results of other people's polls -- what a SURPRISE that the form of a question, in among all the other questions, and push polls, and May polls and October polls and polls used to "prove" this and that, that the form of the question ever gets any attention. Just trust to the native honesty and competence of the pollsters. Like kos just discovered that maybe you can't do all the time. Billions for polls, but not one red cent for decency, honesty, civility, all that stuff that keeps things going...

    One wonders if there might not be a better way?

    "Is that all there is?" Peggy Lee.

    by jm214 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:59:23 PM PDT

  •  "Do you call yourself an American?" (6+ / 0-)

    The followup: "Do you understand what 'America' means, you motherfucker?"

    I hate those fuckers.

    "Gussie, a glutton for punishment, stared at himself in the mirror."

    by GussieFN on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 04:59:52 PM PDT

  •  I'm certain there was a CNN poll weeks ago... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    crose, commonmass

    that less biased. I remember voting in the poll and being relieved that my fellow Americans saw through the Cons b.s.  So yeah, the outcome certainly depends on the wording of the poll.

    And the fact that this current poll essentially states the Cons meme verbatim, I find it suspect. The intern who came up with this poll is obviously right-wing.

    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" Voltaire.

    by JWK on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:01:17 PM PDT

  •  I don't 'support' religious institutions anywhere (6+ / 0-)

    I think superstition does more harm than good, but it's none of my business. Let them build a mosque, church, whatever wherever they like.

    It's a free country.

    Isn't it?

    •  It's not free to the taxpayers (0+ / 0-)

      Any house of worship built is subsidized by the taxpayers. Since they are tax exempt, revenue that would come to that property needs to come from elsewhere...the other taxpayers. Let them build their mosque, church, whatever anywhere but don't allow tax exemptions anymore.

      Stafford, Texas thought about it but I'm guessing it got dropped quickly. See article:

      http://www.boston.com/...

  •  would love to see this poll (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    decembersue, sidnora, hhex65, crose, commonmass

    asked to the people of NYC.

    Ya know, the ones who it actually has any impact on.

  •  Very important point (5+ / 0-)

    Opposing something doesn't mean that something should be forbidden or illegal.

    I oppose wearing socks with sandals, but you don't see me pushing legislation or a Constitutional amendment about it.

  •  Don't blame CNN! (0+ / 0-)

    They're just a business that's losing market share! You can't blame them for trying to save their company!

  •  Damn you, Liberal Media! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FleetAdmiralJ, crose, commonmass, moonpal

    With your skewed questions and left-leaning ways!

    Gun control, separation of church and state, women's reproductive rights and the 4th Amendment do matter.

    by sloopydrew on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:02:55 PM PDT

  •  Even with the wording (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    esquimaux, commonmass, tekno2600, jm214

    those results are still stunning. It is shameful how Muslims have been demonized in America since 911. Let them build the mosque!

  •  American governed by mob rule...news at 11 (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    esquimaux, crose, commonmass, tekno2600
  •  Words fail me..nt. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    crose, commonmass

    "Love is what we were born with. Fear is what we learned here." Marianne Williamson

    by Canadian Green Card Alien on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:05:55 PM PDT

  •  Polling was invented to shape opinions (9+ / 0-)

    and there is an entire 'science' that's existed for decades about how to shape a question to get the answer you want.

    BTW, it's not a mosque but rather a community center that has a mosque/prayer room in it.

    Media Reform Action Link http://stopbigmedia.com/

    by LNK on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:06:04 PM PDT

  •  I was thinking of how fox would frame the (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass

    question, but I quit because I refuse to get pissed off tonight!

    "Our 'neoconservatives' are neither new nor conservative, but old as Babylon and evil as Hell" - Edward Abbey

    by stormserge on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:06:28 PM PDT

    •  Here's how you do it: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      stormserge

      "Do you approve of a shrine to the people that flew planes into the World Trade Centre being erected two blocks from the site?"

      That's how Fox would frame it. Technically "true" (an islamic centre with a prayer room in it could be termed a "shrine") and of course, those guys were Muslims, also technically true.

      But egregiously misleading.

      I ask myself daily: "Why do people hate gays so much?" There is never a good answer.

      by commonmass on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:10:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I find the demonization of (5+ / 0-)

    Muslims to be very, deeply distasteful. I have read the Koran. I have also read the Bible. And the Constitution. Have any of these people?

    Say what you want about religion, but people have a right. Islamic cultures have such a rich and wonderful depth in music, in literature, in poetry you name it. Not to mention the fact that it was Islamic society that kept much of the knowledge of the ancient world alive while Rome was busy burying it under the rubble of the dark ages.

    Ignorance and fear is just unattractive. I'm surprised any of these teabagging righties and their corporate masters can even find partners for reproduction in sacred (first, second, fifth) marriages it's so unattractive.

    I ask myself daily: "Why do people hate gays so much?" There is never a good answer.

    by commonmass on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:07:00 PM PDT

  •  your second version (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass

    is waaay too hard for the average person to follow.

    How about:

    Do you believe that American Muslims deserve the same freedom of religion that other religious groups enjoy under the First Amendment?

    and of course your third one is nail-hammer-bang.  I'd like to have some pollster ask that question also.

    "Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D."

    by TrueBlueMajority on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:08:57 PM PDT

  •  70% of women oppose (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, moonpal

    building the mosque, 28% support. 65% of men oppose, 30% of men support. Usually women are more liberal than men on issues like this. This is about fear. This mosque issue is tapping into fears about terrorism and security.

  •  Since it's not a mosque and not at ground zero, (9+ / 0-)

    the more accurate way to ask this would be: Do you believe American Muslims should be prohibited from opening an Islamic Outreach Center two blocks from the former World Trade Center in order to educate people about religious tolerance and show respect for tragegy that occured there?

    ...and, by the way, it's in an old Burlington Coat factory building that will have a restaurant, shops, a swimming pool, and a small prayer room.

    There are some things money can't buy. Like when wingnuts actually called themselves teabaggers...priceless!

    by tekno2600 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:10:23 PM PDT

    •  Teh Burlington Coat Factory is Sacred Ground! (3+ / 0-)

      You have exactly 10 seconds to change that look of disgusting pity into one of enormous respect!

      by Cartoon Peril on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:11:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Burlington coat factory is one of the holiest (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        esquimaux, mayim, commonmass

        sites to Muslims, Jews, and Scottish people, like myself...because all three of these groups know how to pinch a penny so tight it makes Abe Lincoln file a restraining order.

        There are some things money can't buy. Like when wingnuts actually called themselves teabaggers...priceless!

        by tekno2600 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:18:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not Scottish (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mayim, tekno2600

          but I AM a native New Englander. I have been known to dry out my coffee grounds in the oven and use them a second time. I getcha. But check into Burlington's labor policies when you get a chance. You might not like what you see. Just sayin'.

          I ask myself daily: "Why do people hate gays so much?" There is never a good answer.

          by commonmass on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:28:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Just sayin' (1+ / 1-)
      Recommended by:
      FleetAdmiralJ
      Hidden by:
      FreeStateDem

      Do you believe Germans should be prohibited from opening a German cultural center two blocks from Auschwitz in order to educate people about the glorious traditions of German culture?

      Strength of character does not consist solely in having powerful feelings, but in maintaining one's balance in spite of them. - Clausewitz

      by SpamNunn on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 06:11:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I can't believe this crap! (0+ / 0-)

        Your comment is extremely offensive. Al Qaeda attacked America on 911, not all Muslims!

        •  The Nazis killed the Jews, not all Germans (0+ / 0-)

          What's your point?  

          Hardly HR's able.  

          Strength of character does not consist solely in having powerful feelings, but in maintaining one's balance in spite of them. - Clausewitz

          by SpamNunn on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 06:22:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You did not say Nazis (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            GlowNZ

            You said Germans.

            The cultural center we're talking about here is a Muslim community center, not an Al Qaeda center. When you said:

            Do you believe Germans should be prohibited from opening a German cultural center two blocks from Auschwitz in order to educate people about the glorious traditions of German culture?

            In the analogy, "Germans" becomes "Muslims" and "Auschwitz" becomes "Ground Zero". Muslims did not perpetrate 911. Al Qaeda did. Al Qaeda is not building anything near ground zero.

            •  Could Germans build a German (0+ / 0-)

              cultural center across from Auschwitz?   Probably not.  Why not?  And why would that be different than the Cordoba Project opening two blocks from Ground Zero?  

              It's called an analogy.   Anyone who takes offense to a neutral statement intended to provoke some critical thought needs to switch to decaf.  

              Strength of character does not consist solely in having powerful feelings, but in maintaining one's balance in spite of them. - Clausewitz

              by SpamNunn on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 06:50:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I would respectfully request that you pick up (0+ / 0-)

                your donut.  

                Strength of character does not consist solely in having powerful feelings, but in maintaining one's balance in spite of them. - Clausewitz

                by SpamNunn on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 06:51:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No (0+ / 0-)

                  I will take this to Meteor Blades if I have to. I am in the right here. Your comment was wrong.

                •  Re-phrase (0+ / 0-)

                  Let me re-phrase the comment above. What I mean is I won't contact Meteor Blades, but if you think I'm wrong to HR you, we can see what the site moderators think about it. I don't think I was wrong to HR you. I really think your comment was offensive.

                  The analogy you are using doesn't work because the 911 attack was not a general attack by Muslims against America, it was an attack by a terrorist group called Al Qaeda against America. This group that plans to build the Muslim center there is not in any way, shape, or form connected to those who attacked on 911.

          •  the Nazis were German, (0+ / 0-)

            Down with Prop H8! Jerry Brown for CA_GOV 2010

            by GlowNZ on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 06:45:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Why is the comment offensive? (0+ / 0-)

          Mass murder of innocents was committed at both sites. If you believe, as Goldhagen (Hitler's Willing Executioners) seems to, that most Germans were culpable for the German death camps, that would seem to make a German cultural center at Auschwitz more unpardonable than a Muslim mosque at Ground Zero, given that most Muslims, as has been said, probably don't condone or have any culpability for the 9/11 attacks.

          Are you saying that Germans building a cultural center near  Auschwitz would be worse than a mosque near Ground Zero? Why would an Auschwitz cultural center be a bad idea if its purpose was redemptive?

          IIRC, the Germans give tours of Auschwitz. How would that be more or less offensive than peace-loving Muslims giving tours at Ground Zero?

      •  The Germans do in fact operate those camps (0+ / 0-)

        as museums to educate people about the dangers of fascism and genocide. I think it is a remarkable testiment to their stength and integrity as a culture to face their past and make ammends for the wrongs. I think there are Muslims trying to do the same thing here. If only all people had the same courage.

        Your analogy is uninformed and offensive, as nobody is saying there should be an Al Qaeda museum at ground zero, just like no one would propose a pro-Nazi museum at Auschwitz. But, German does not equal Nazi, just as Muslim does not equal terrorist. This is especially obvious, since the stated goal of this Islamic Center is to be open to non-Muslims to help foster interfaith understanding.

        Should they not allow any Christian churches in downtown Oklahoma City, because Timothy McViegh was a fundamentalist Christain who blew up the federal building there?

        Obama is NOT a Socialist, damn it! But, I'll go ahead and vote for him anyway.

        by tekno2600 on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 11:55:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I missed all the fun on these comment. Damn work! (0+ / 0-)

        Obama is NOT a Socialist, damn it! But, I'll go ahead and vote for him anyway.

        by tekno2600 on Sun Aug 15, 2010 at 11:57:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Well, time for Burn a Bible Day. Right after (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass

    Burn the Constitution Day.

    You have exactly 10 seconds to change that look of disgusting pity into one of enormous respect!

    by Cartoon Peril on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:10:24 PM PDT

  •  Defending America: Spc. Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan (11+ / 0-)

    In the mean time, thousands of Muslim American soldiers, sailors, marines and air force personnel continue to defend their countrymen around the world. Some now reside at Arlington National Cemetery, like 20 year old Army Specialist Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan, having given their lives for our nation.

  •  That's just typical in politics today. (0+ / 0-)

    I might be against eating broccoli, but that doesn't mean I am for making it illegal (maybe in my state only).  

    By the same measure, liberals should take care in not calling out those as fascist that say building this is a mistake.  Personally, I think it is rather bad taste, but don't think the government can or should do anything about it.  (even if the intent is not in bad taste, the appearance is enough to damage relations)

    •  the appearance of what? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      commonmass, susanala

      is enough to damage relations with whom?

      "Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D."

      by TrueBlueMajority on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:15:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Do you know what I think is in bad taste? (4+ / 0-)

      Putting up monuments of the Ten Commandments outside courthouses. The captured Union cannons that are proudly displayed in front of the Texas State Capitol Building (yes, they are Union guns. Some Northern places display captured Confederate ones, and I find that equally as distasteful).

      An Islamic center in that neighborhood of NYC is just another building, to service just another community of the diverse and wonderful city that is our nation's cultural capitol.

      This is said, by the way, as a practicing Episcopalian. Speaking of which....

      There are several Episcopal churches in the very near vacinity of Ground Zero. Is THAT in poor taste, or is it OK because they represent Anglo-American heritage?

      Enquiring minds want to know.

      I ask myself daily: "Why do people hate gays so much?" There is never a good answer.

      by commonmass on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:23:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm sorry you find that in bad taste (0+ / 0-)

        But those are all red herrings.  

        Just as those in Muslim countries think that America is having a crusade against them (false), many American's think Muslims are against Western democracy (many are).  This reinforces these thoughts however wrong.

  •  CNN Continues To Try To Be Fox News (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    esquimaux, commonmass
  •  The most beautiful wedding (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TrueBlueMajority, esquimaux, mayim

    I ever attended (and as a professional church musician, I have attended--read: worked--literally hundreds of weddings over the last 25 years) was a Muslim wedding of an Iranian colleague of my ex's. I mean, it was just the most amazing thing I've ever seen, wedding-wise.

    The beauty of (at least this variety) of Islamic ceremonial, with its distinct Persian cultural aspects, was breathtaking. Beats the hell out of the Presbyterians, I'll tell you that much.

    I ask myself daily: "Why do people hate gays so much?" There is never a good answer.

    by commonmass on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:15:16 PM PDT

  •  My (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass

    That's a mighty generous assumption. For one, it assumes a majority of Americans are critical thinkers, motivated by what is right and just rather than the conspiracy theories of fearmongerers.

    It is not a surprise to find that Americans hate Muslims, or at the very least maintain an unhealthy suspicion about them. Or Mexicans for that matter. It's not like they have a track record of being civil libertarians on these issues, despite our good wishes. Doesn't the latest polling have them supporting torture too?  

  •  54% of Democrats, 45% of liberals (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zett

    Those numbers are shocking. I see what the diarist is saying about a slant to the way the question was asked, but my freakin god, I would have thought it would have been first nature for any Democrat or liberal to immediately interperet the question in simpler terms like:

    Should the government control who builds houses of worship and where they're located?

    or

    Would you object if Jews or Christians wanted to open a house of worship near Ground Zero?

    For Dems & libs, this should be a no brainer regardless of how the question is worded. We either have religious freedom or we don't. According to the constitution we do. Don't like it? Try to change it. (It would suit me just fine to outlaw all the mythology while preserving the spirituality of religion, but that's not going to happen.) In the mean time, it's the law. Period. End of story.

    Progressive principles won't be worth jack if we let the GOP "take their country back".

    by JTinDC on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:19:08 PM PDT

  •  They can build it anywhere they want (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, tekno2600, JTinDC

    I just object to them - like any church or synagogue - getting tax exempt status.

  •  If your goal is to stir up hatred (7+ / 0-)

    or to give the sensationalistic impression that hatred is now normal then then you frame the question the way they framed it. Any pollster can get them the result they want and obviously one did.

    We have only just begun and none too soon.

    by global citizen on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:19:49 PM PDT

  •  we are a lot more cowardly than I ever thought (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mayim, commonmass, JTinDC

    That's a sad fact I've come to grips with over the last decade.

    Afraid of everything. Of illegal immigrants, and Muslims, gays, minorities, women...

  •  I don't think the questions are synonymous (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass

    asking wether or not a mosque is built in a specific place vs wether or not people have the right to worship where they choose are very different questions.

    its the difference in asking wether or not someone has a problem with interracial marriage vs. "would you want you child dating a person of a different race"

    you're going to get far different answers.  Frankly I think CNN's original question gets to the heart of the matter without beating around the bush.

    Truth is we have lots of bigots in this country, burrying our heads in the sand wont make it go away.

  •  Another thing (2+ / 0-)

    It doesn't say "American citizens" or "Arab Americans"; it says "a group of Muslims in the US".

    Makes it sound like a cell of terrorists that snuck into the country, for god's sake! Badly worded question.

  •  Totally. It has to do with people not... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, JTinDC

    ...knowing what it is.

    It's a cultural center blocks AWAY from the WTC - next to PORN SHOPS, and other places - and it's not a MOSQUE - it's a cultural center that includes restaurants, shops, etc., that's open to EVERYBODY, and that ALSO INCLUDES A MEMORIAL TO THE VICTIMS OF 9/11. The "praying center" that will be inside as well isn't even a mosque.

    May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house.

    by dasheight on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 05:28:44 PM PDT

  •  Comments (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mayim, commonmass
    1. It's no surprise that CNN cherry picked the question to support the narrative they wanted.  The question, as worded, suggests that this is some kind of in your face "Muslim" counter-response to 9/11, when in fact no such thing is true.  If you'd asked, "do wingnuts in white sheets from the Confederacy have the right to tell New York City that they aren't allowed to issue building permits to brown skinned people the confederates don't like", you'd probably get a different result.
    1. It is also a national poll.  Nobody outside NYC (and really outside lower Manhattan) has any real standing to be deciding this.  And I think you'll find that in lower Manhattan, whose residents are going to be living next door, there is much more support.  I don't think that dumbass Republican security moms in their overpriced McMansions in exurban Florida want me telling them that they can't put up huge fundamentalist megachurches on swampland, something far more troubling to me than an Islamic cultural center that will likely keep an abandoned building from turning into a crackhouse.
    1. Practically speaking, it ignores a few other inconvenient facts, such as the very secular need to keep buildings from sitting empty in lower Manhattan.  It's a conforming land use.  Unlike all those aforementioned fundy-churches, it's consistent with the overall planning for lower Manhattan.
  •  Yeah, your right but the reality is that (0+ / 0-)

    the immediate emotional response to a mosque near ground zero will remain negative and just illustrates what a bad idea it is. I think both versions of the question should have been asked to examine how people can still rationalize the groups right but not like the what their doing. In this case, it would be more revealing. In the end, people have an equal right to voice their opposition and protest. The questions is do they realize the groups rights as well. This is a matter between  the local community and the group. One side with either back down, agree to disagree and move on or be a harboring a constant animosity at the mosques existence near ground zero.

  •  September 11, 1973. Santiago Chile. (0+ / 0-)

    Thousands were rounded up and held in a stadium by the Pinochet thugs. This coup was supported by the US government and US business interests.

    So the question: For a US bank office to be build in Santiago, how many yards must they be from that stadium before it is OK?

  •  Why is this a subject for a poll? (0+ / 0-)

    What does a building permit on private property have to do with public opinion?  It seems as crazy to me as polling about whether republicans or democrats approve of knees.  It baffles me how this could possibly concern anyone but the folks in the community.  
    Seriously -- anyone outside of that neighborhood, it has nothing at all to do with you.  Nothing.
    The world has gotten terribly strange lately.

  •  i am sick and tired (0+ / 0-)
    of people who aren't from NYC telling us what we should or should not do. Most people who live in Manhattan support this cultural center (with a gym, pool, concert hall and yes prayer room). It's really no different than the 92 St Y which would be it's Jewish counterpoint and another NY treasure.
    And I say this as a 9/11 survivor of the Towers who got out in time and walked 100 blocks uptownn to my home in shock and in heels, carrying my trial bag and covered in dirt, dust and other's blood. It's my City and no a-hole from Georgia (Newtie) or Alaska (Sarah) or anywhere will ever tell me how to feel or what to do in this regard.
    I will never forget the first day I returned to our new offices only a few blocks away and was stopped by som"concerned tourists" asking me to point them to the "ruins".  
    Everyone should read Hertzberg in the New Yorker on this. Bottom line: it's for NYers to decide and we have the least problem with it of anyone.
  •  It's harder than it looks (0+ / 0-)

    But that's just a horrible poll question.  If it were done as part of a political campaign it could easily be labeled a "push poll."  Even your succinct version is lacking, because I'd have to answer "Yes."  I live on a residentially zoned street, so I don't want a church moving in to the house next door.  Therefore I think the government can and should control it.  But if consideration for zonng laws is included in the question my answer changes.

    Which is why 74% of respondents don't trust polls (±3%).

  •  I don't understand what's wrong with the Q (0+ / 0-)

    The question didn't even explicitly ask whether people believed the government should intervene to outlaw the mosque; it merely asked whether people supported plans by American Muslims to build it. Those two questions are not synonymous.

    Did CNN made them synonymous? Did they, for example, report, from this poll result, that "68% of Americans believe that the government should block building of the 'Ground Zero Mosque'"? If so, a link to that article would be helpful.

    I think CNN's question is interesting, and I don't read anything into it about what these respondents might have thought with respect to if the government should prohibit the building of the mosque. I see no reason why someone else would either.

    All CNN's poll tells us is that a good majority of people polled are not in favor of the mosque being built at that location. They may also not be in favor of people being obese. Neither opinion would indicate that even one of the respondents believe that building the mosque should be blocked or that being obese should be outlawed.

    Suppose CNN had asked one of Jed's proposed questions:

    Do you believe the New York City government should forbid American Muslims from building a private house of worship anywhere in the vicinity of where the World Trade Center used to stand?

    Then would Jed have complained as follows?

    The question didn't even explicitly ask whether people supported plans by American Muslims to build the mosque; it merely asked whether people believed the government should intervene to outlaw it. Those two questions are not synonymous.

    Yes, CNN didn't ask the questions he wanted them to ask and maybe Jed's questions are more interesting to him and perhaps to others, but Jed is free to commission his own poll to ask the questions he finds interesting rather than complaining that someone else didn't do it for him.

    (And, no, I don't think the government should block the building of the mosque and I doubt the building of it would bother me even if I lived in the area.)

  •  Pork Plant Opens Next to Mosque Next to Ground Ze (0+ / 0-)

    This was a much better piece and even had a valid message. just because you have the freedom to do something doesn't mean you should do it.

    Pork Plant Opens Next to Mosque Next to Ground Zero http://rancornews.com/...

  •  The question asked was about (0+ / 0-)

    "a group of Muslims".  It didn't say they were American Muslims.  

    I found the question slanted.

    And the people being polled?

    All 35 or older.

    Hmm..

    "A Canadian is merely an unarmed American with health care." John Wing

    by marigold on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 08:59:47 PM PDT

  •  It would help if people knew shit from Shinola (0+ / 0-)

    in the first place. Even from just watching CNN, CNN mind you, I could tell the people opposed to this "mosque" were a bunch of xenophobic, hyperventilating whack jobs...but whenever a bunch of wingnuts starts whining, the trad media is duty bound to make it a big deal. :sigh:

    If people knew jack shit about the Constitution or their ass from a hole in the ground, they'd answer even that slanted poll question "yes" and have done with.  People are too uneducated to see through a slanted question - that's a whole lot of what the shit-stirrers count on.

    Eh, I guess I shouldn't bitch.  I have learned a lot on DKos - other people haven't that education.

    Feingold did not vote for Alito.

    by zett on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 09:01:48 PM PDT

  •  C'mom, let's be honest (0+ / 0-)

    The folks wanting to build a Mosque are legally entitled to. But... if the Mosque builders REALLY wanted to build bridges etc. they would be MCUH more sensitive to the issue of an Islamic house of worship- weighted with all the baggage that carries from the 9/1 attacks - at/near the site of those attacks. Anything else is just politics and denial. Besides, whose gonna' build it? Union contractors in NYC? No way.

  •  Fuck the polls. Gotta do what's right. (0+ / 0-)

    Sometimes the majority of the people are just dead wrong. That's a fact. If we want to run by mob rule in this country, then let's look at polls all the time to make our decisions. If we want to do what's right, then go Nike and just do it.

    hink

    Hyperbole will be the death of us all!

    by MrHinkyDink on Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 12:17:42 AM PDT

  •  that's one of the worst worded polls (0+ / 0-)

    I've ever seen.

    1. they don't even say they're American muslims, they just say "a group of muslims in the US"

    Can you possibly frame the question in a more negative and condescending fashion without going out and saying "Islamic extremists"?

    Also, getting facts wrong in your question also doesn't help.  It's a community center. not a mosque.

    This is bordering very close to push poll territory, which I might expect from FOX, but is disgraceful for CNN.

  •  Alot of people just like feeling outraged. (0+ / 0-)

    So, while we're at it:
    -Let's not build any Catholic Churches within a mile of a school.
    -No Japanese people can live on Hawai'i ever.
    -We've gotta start actually treating Canadian's like immigrants too.
    -All cars should be V6's or higher, because men need to feel validated through what's parked in their driveway because of what's parked in their pants.
    -That whole forced sterilization of homosexuals that was tried once. Bring it back. God knows that they'll start breed (idiots).
    -If your kid fails a grade, pass him anyway so the other kids won't think he's dumb.
    -Gasoline should at least be as expensive as a Box o' Joe at Dunkin Donuts, then maybe we'd see how you really fleece that cash out of a people.
    -Finally admit that money is all that really matters in this society. That power and progress aren't dealt by policy, but by the money and the statement, "In God we trust." perversely printed on every coin and bill.

    I think this is a solid start. So, Protect our kids, tell them they're better than they actually are. Keep foreigners and homosexuals away because their icky. Pretend everything else is great because it fits into the narrative and is easier than saying, "Shit, we're playing this all by ear." And flash those big dollar bills every second you can to show the type of American you really are!!!!!
    I'm going to go drink now.

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