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They're on the media night and day looking for our sympathy - yeah
The Holocaust, the crystal night don't mean a thing to me - no
The world can't take much more of this Zionist intervention
The only fool proof plan is mass extermination

Six million more, six million more

Written by neo-Nazis, released on a neo-Nazi record label.  That's fine, and perfectly legal.

It's also sold to you, for 99 cents, from iTunes: http://itunes.apple.com/...  It's track 5, if you'd like it to soundtrack your commute.

Days ago, I wrote an initial diary calling attention to the fact iTunes/Apple and Amazon sell neo-Nazi music produced by neo-Nazi record labels.  Here I'll provide some further information.

The Neo-Nazi label gets their cut, and Apple or Amazon get theirs.  Also legal, and in case you're wondering, I believe strongly that's how it should be, if we're talking about legalities.  But I'm not talking about legalities.  I do have a very, very big problem with it as a consumer, and as an issue of corporate responsibility, and I plan to do something about it with my wallet and my voice, and maybe you will too.

Whiskey Bottles
Baseball Bats
Pickup Trucks
And Rebel Flags

We're going on the town tonight
Hit and run
Let's have some fun
We've got jigaboos on the run
And they fear the setting sun

Bully Boys, Jigrun

Our message will be spread. Our voices loud and clear
Inform the youth of the truth, the jew's greatest fear.

Final War, Aryan Pride

My kids all wanna be niggers, so I'm showin' 'em how
hey honey, I'm dropping the kids off in Harlem
I'll pick 'em up when they've had enough of that nigger shit
hey honey, I'm dropping the kids off in Harlem
and we'll see how quick they come home when they've had enough of it

Racist Redneck Rebels, Dropping the Kids Off in Harlem

Give Amazon a dollar, and it's yours.  You won't even have to wait for that cardboard Amazon box, they've got the mp3 for your convenience: http://www.amazon.com/...

The same low price at iTunes if you're a Mac and not a PC, of course: http://itunes.apple.com/...

They know what this is.  It's not on Sony or Merge or Jagjaguwar.  It's on Nazi labels.  They know what this is because they say as much if you write them about it.  Much of the rest that they tell you is mix of hypocrisy, corporate callousness, and fact-checkable lies about their own policies, but that part is true.

What Isn't True: "They Can't Check Every Track by Every Artist!"

I know.  Nobody's asking them too.  These songs & artists above are not track 7 by some band that snuck through the cracks at Capitol, Warner Bros., Matador, Kill Rock Stars or Merge, or countless other major and independent labels.  They're easily identified Nazi bands on easily identified Nazi record labels: labels like Micetrap, Panzerfaust, and Rock-o-Rama, run by Nazis, for recruitment of new Nazis, for the profit of Nazis.

What Isn't True: "Refusing to Sell Neo-Nazi Music & Sharing the Profits With Neo-Nazi Organizations = The Slippery Slope of WalMart Content Control!"

No, I absolutely refuse to accept that counter-point based on my experience as a decades long & rabid purchaser of music.  I've been a lunatic music nerd since I was in middle school, and the music I've always loved has been underground music on independent labels.  Always hard to impossible to find at WalMart or Sam Goody (do those still exist?), but I know how to look for it and where to shop.  I've shopped in the slightly better national & international chains like HMV and Virgin.  I've shopped at local chains like Newbury Comics in Mass. with impressive & wide-ranging selections.  And from the local mom & pop shops like Amoeba in San Francisco, Sonik in Montreal, joints in NYC and Boston and elsewhere, almost anywhere I travel.  With the exception of one store I was in 15 years ago, these stores--committed to independent music as well as mainstream, committed to varied content, do not carry Nazi music from Nazi labels as a matter of policy & responsibility.

These are businesses.  They are making a business decision as to what to profit off of.  This is not a freedom of speech issue--if Newbury Comics starts carrying Skrewdriver's "When the Boat Comes In" tomorrow...

"Try to take our nation, and give it to the blacks
We won't take it anymore, we're gonna take our nation back
Nigger, nigger, get on that boat
Nigger, nigger, row
Nigger, nigger, get out of here
Nigger, nigger, go, go, go...
They riot on the British streets, they're burning down our land
But the fools in government put money in their hands"

...Elliot Ness & the Government aren't going to break their doors down and smash the records and arrest the owners.  They're allowed to sell it.  They should be allowed to sell it.  That's not what this is about.  It's about whether you, a non-government actor, a consumer with consumer choices, want to patronize a business that chooses to sell it.  

Newbury Comics says no, they won't carry it.  They carry a wide variety of music from all sorts of labels, with all sorts of messages right, left & indifferent.  They choose not to make a buck off of music calling for racist genocide put out by neo-Nazi labels in many cases with connections to White Aryan Resistance, Aryan Nations, Hammerskins, the British National Party & Stormfront.

iTunes & Amazon make a different choice.  If you've got enough change in your pocket, "When the Boat Comes In" can be yours in about 30 seconds if you've got a good internet connection, straight from Apple's or Amazon's HQ.

What Isn't True: "They Say They're Content Neutral As Long As The Underlying Content Is Legal!"

Alright, Mr. Dyrrachium.  You're saying many brick & mortar shops, and some exclusively online ones (such as eMusic or Interpunk) don't carry this Nazi stuff, but Amazon & iTunes do.  Well, I've heard both shops have a policy of being content neutral so long as no laws are being broken, as much as they "lament" some of what they profit off of.  That sounds reasonable to me.  You yourself, Mr. Dyrrachium, have received emails from both companies informing you of that very policy.  At least they're consistent.  No content regulation for legal material, full stop.  They will not refrain from selling something because it's offensive to some folks, cuz who know where it ends.

No, kids.  They're lying to you.  They lied to me when they said that.  They are not content-neutral platforms for anybody selling legal entertainment to hock their wares with a cut to the daddy corp.

Neither company sells perfectly legal hardcore pornography.  Please feel free to check.  Sometimes, you will find a hardcore title in the Amazon marketplace feature (3rd party sellers), but Amazon doesn't sell it.  It's legal.  It's not that they "just so happen" not to be in the business of selling sexually titillating material and it has nothing at all to do with content.  Amazon sells softcore: http://www.amazon.com/...  Maybe people are watching it for the plot, I suppose.  Hell, they even sell the small handful of arthouse movies with small scenes of unsimulated sexually activity: http://www.amazon.com/...

They choose not to sell people actually fukkin from Vivid or Hustler or whomever, because despite the fact this is one of the most profitable sectors of entertainment sales in the country, it's not worth the heat.

Amazon thinks the Nazi stuff is worth the heat, because very few people know about it, and to greatly abuse the Michael Jordan quote, "Republicans buy sneakers too," as long as you swap in Hammerskins for "Republicans" and take out "sneakers" in favor of "music calling for the mass extermination of racial minorities with profits going to Nazi organizations."

When they say they don't engage in content regulation, they lie.

It's even more obvious at iTunes, where not only do they not sell hardcore pornography, but within the realm of music, have removed songs from their catalogue in the past that call for genocide of a different kind.

Of course, Apple tells you this, from an email I received:

However, as we have previously inform you, the iTunes Store does not censor content.

Please search the iTunes song for "Boom Bye Bye" by Buju Banton, one of many dancehall reggae songs calling for the mass extermination of homosexuals removed by iTunes a couple of years ago do to concerted consumer protest.  Batty Boy is Jamaican slang for homosexual man, by the by.

Boom Bye Bye
In a Batty Boy Head
Rude Boy No Promote No Nasty Man
Dem Haffi Dead

Not finding it at Apple?  Hmmm.  So much for the content regulation line, which they'll tell you because they think you've never heard anything about this.

What This Isn't About: "Freedom of Speech"

I mentioned it in my first diary, I expressed it at greater length in comments, and I'll say it again:

The 1st Amendment protects most forms of speech of individuals and corporations against government suppression.

I am not the government.  You, the Apple & Amazon consumer, are not the government.  I am not only not calling for any of this material to become illegal, but find such ideas anti-American.

Rock-o-Rama Records, Panzerfaust, Micetrap, and other white supremecist record labels can continue to sell their wares and continue their attempts to reach young white youth.  This is their mission, this is their purpose for being.  This is not a controversial rapper on Sony--neo-Nazi records labels will not shy away from, well, selling neo-Nazi music.  Cuz, y'know, they're neo-Nazis.  This is what they're in it for.  

In no way is the 1st Amendment implicated, or is "censorship" occurring, when individual consumers let corporations know what they think of what they're doing with their wallets and their words and their attempts to inform the greater public of these corporations' business practices.

Tell Amazon you can buy that coffee maker someplace else.  Then do it.

$300 coffee maker bought elsewhere.  They'll have to sell 300 copies of "When the Boat Comes In" today to get back to zero.

This isn't the new Miley Cyrus single.  It might take awhile to make up the difference selling this shit.

Finally: Sorry Dyyrachium, I Ain't A Lawyer, But I Just Can't Get This "Freedom of Speech" Thing Out of My Head.
Listen, bros & sisters.  I happen to be an attorney, for what it's worth.  The government has nothing to do with this.  Not only is this not one of the Kos diaries where I ask you to write to your congressman, you shouldn't, it's got fuck all to do with this.

This is not a 1st Amendment issue.  It's a consumer pocketbook issue.  It's registering disgust with a corporation that's done a cost-benefit analysis that turns out when way when dealing with naked people fucking and another when dealing with music calling for the murder of people like me because of who my parents are.  

Here's where the freedom of speech comes in, if anywhere:

Here's how you can contact Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/...

Here's iTunes/Apple: iTunesStoreSupport@apple.com; msmac@apple.com

I wrote to them and told them I'm disgusted by this policy, that their claims to be content-neutral are a lie, and informed them specifically of how I intended to cost them money--my own and those I talk to--as a result of it.

If you feel this is wrong of me, or despite the fact these faceless soulless profit-driven corporations are definitively NOT content-neutral, think it's better for them to carry this stuff than to refuse to, you certainly don't need my permission to use the very same content links I've provided to write to them in support.  That's your business and the risk I run by publicizing this.

But that doesn't change my own opinion: Don't let massive, faceless, and uh, belief-less corporations fool you into thinking this is about free expression.  They don't allow "free" expression because they're not content-neutral to begin with.  They're driven by profit only, not access to the marketplace or some malarkey.  They're companies making business decisions what to profit off of and what isn't worth the hassle.  They count on it that you don't know what any of this means or that at the end of the day you really won't make buying decisions based on it.

Defense of Free Expression:

Defense of Free Expression and the 1st Amendment would be to stand in total opposition to any attempt to make the stuff Micetrap, Panzerfaust, Rock-o-Rama records...or Skrewdriver, the Bully Boys, and other bands sell illegal or subject to government repression.  Believe it or not, I'd be standing write there along with you and writing diaries in opposition of any such government action.

But here's the thing about Free Expression, not only of words, but in that less sexy way, of pocketbooks.  We don't do anything to make Nazi speech illegal.  That doesn't mean we need to help it be financially successful.  We don't need to encourage mainstream stores to profit from it.  Free expression is healthy when other citizens--not through the government--make it as difficult as fucking possible for Nazis to profit from the stuff they have every right under the Constitution to say.  Don't let Amazon tell you otherwise--they just want the money--Nazi speech with exist unmolested by the Federal Government if I buy my laptop from somebody else.  

If you agree with me, help out.  If you don't, don't.  If there's anything related to free expression in this whole sad affair, I suppose it's that.

Originally posted to dyrrachium on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 12:35 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Not this shat again. We don't censor in America. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Samulayo, MGross, Switched On

      Nt

      •  Did you bother to read the diary? The diarist is (12+ / 0-)

        in no way advocating censorship. It's an informative diary addressing double-standards among a few retailers, and a request that we consider "voting" with our wallets. How is that advocacy of censorship?

        Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

        by angry marmot on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 12:49:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  BOYCOTT ITUNES FOR POTTY LANGUAGE AND POT SONGS! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Switched On

          I read both of the diaries on this topic (same diarist).  Go read the last one and the comments and you'll understand the gripe.

          •  This Comment Seems To Imply... (0+ / 0-)

            ...I've called for a boycott of iTunes for swearing or songs that are about drugs.

            The last diary, perhaps worded more clumsily (unedited and ready for the reading of anyone) makes the same point.

            I freely admit to getting angry at a couple commenters there accusing me of advocating for a 1st Amendment violation of a "strategic lawsuit against public participation" (SLAPP) {despite the fact I've been very clear this has nothing to do with legality, nobody's breaking any law and I'm not exactly suing anybody}.

            Those comments are available for perusal as well, which were somewhat pointed and probably rude, but the meaning of the content of that diary and those comments is the same as this one.

        •  Exactly. This Is Bringing Attention... (3+ / 0-)

          ...to what I consider to by hypocritical & greed-caused decisions of mainstream retailers.

          If you choose to make some of your buying decisions based on this information and inform the retailers of that fact, you may.

          If you choose to not do so, or even buy even more from Amazon in support of their position, you may do that too.

          While I obviously prefer option A, it's up to you.

          I will never understand how informed consumer choices based on the profit-driven decisions of companies has come to = censorship in the minds of so many.

          •  WalMart (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            edtastic, Switched On

            Because WalMart effectively caused censorship with their "buyer's guidelines". They didn't claim you couldn't say X,Y, or Z, but if you did WalMart wouldn't sell you album. When they were 60-70% of the retail record sales that was the kiss of death. So labels self-censored. It was not government censorship but it felt just the same to folks who wanted their lyrics raw and honest.

            Those who forget the lessons of history are probably watching Glenn Beck.

            by ontheleftcoast on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 01:00:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  You know, to be honest... (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bill W, Catte Nappe, edtastic, Switched On

            This Is Bringing Attention to what I consider to by hypocritical & greed-caused decisions of mainstream retailers.

            ...I doubt iTunes and Amazon are making a whole lot of money from white supremacist music.

            Rather, I think they're trying to avoid the headache that would be involved in implementing a racial hate-based content policy throughout their music.

            For example: These neo-Nazi songs all use the N-word. If iTunes banned all music using that word, would they also ban gangsta rap? An Elvis Costello song ("Oliver's Army") that uses that word?

            What specific policy would you like iTunes to enact that would specifically cut off this music, while not cutting off other forms of expression that you think are valid?

            What have you done for DC statehood today? Call your Rep and Senators and demand action.

            by mistersite on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 01:22:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  While I Understand Many Critics... (0+ / 0-)

              ...of this approach or line of thinking may find this inconsistent, or even getting on the slippery slope, so to speak, I would take the exact same approach the vast majority of music retailers do (again, from local chains like Newbury Comics to mom & pop punk/indie/used/mainstream/etc. shops I’ve been going to for decades).

              Make the decision not to sell from clearly identifiable neo-Nazi record labels that often profit neo-Nazi groups (and obviously in other cases just some Nazi guy or gal in business for her or himself without such direct connections to groups like the Hammerskins).  

              I understand some people do not like this approach, and I accept that, but that’s my view, and countless businesses I’ve patronized have managed to take this relatively simple step without "slipping" down the hill and reading the lyric sheets of each new release coming through the door.  Nazi labels are pretty clear in what they are and pretty clearly isolated in my experience.

              Again, at the end of the day, I’m telling you how I make my purchasing decisions.  Obviously, by speaking out, I am clearly making an effort to inform others who may agree with me.  If you or anyone does not agree with me you’re welcome to make a different decision than I have.

              •  Those are small chains. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                dyrrachium

                I would take the exact same approach the vast majority of music retailers do (again, from local chains like Newbury Comics to mom & pop punk/indie/used/mainstream/etc. shops I’ve been going to for decades).

                If Newbury Comics or your local indie record shop doesn't carry a given label or record, it probably doesn't dent into their sales very much.

                If iTunes and Amazon refuse to carry it, it's pretty much dead in the water.

                Like it or not, with a bigger store comes a bigger responsibility. Given their market power, iTunes and Amazon need to have a clearer policy than just "this is something we don't carry because we think it's bad." WalMart has had that very policy and has been roundly criticized, including on this very site, for it. Such a policy would need to be very clearly defined, and probably would need to go to the level of reading the lyric sheets of each new release coming through the door. This kind of policy can't rely on reporting from outside groups; it would need to be applied consistently and fairly in order to stand up to scrutiny.

                While I wouldn't shed a tear if each and every one of these neo-Nazi record labels went belly-up, the problem isn't that iTunes and Amazon are selling it - it's that someone else is buying it. Address that problem, and nobody will sell it anymore.

                What have you done for DC statehood today? Call your Rep and Senators and demand action.

                by mistersite on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 01:47:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  While We Obviously Have A Difference... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...of opinion on this subject unlikely to be reconciled, I respect your position as well-reasoned and principled.

                  I will note that record chains large and small--Newbury and the small places, but HMV, Virgin and the big boys too--have in most cases had this policy for many years, and Amazon and iTunes are newer kids to the block.

                  I will also note that before the internet retailers, despite the fact the brick & mortar shops usually refused to carry it, Rock-o-Rama, Micetrap, and others remained in existence selling their wares.  They relied on mail order to do so, and they'll always be there, as they have been for 30+ years in the case of many labels.

                  Again, without getting the government involved or talking about perfectly legal hate speech being made illegal, things I absolutely oppose, I don't see any problem with making it more difficult in a consumer-action sort of way for these labels to make a profit or for big mainstream retailers to profit from it.

        •  I agree, but would like to add that the (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wader, rockhound, dyrrachium, angry marmot

          diarist could have helped by tightening up the diary a bit.  It's a long read, and they don't really get to the point about shopping elsewhere until pretty far into the diary.  A little bit less of the hateful lyrics, and move the suggested action a bit higher up (and maybe put it in bold, too).  

          They only call it Class War when we fight back.

          by lineatus on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 12:59:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  My Friend, This Is Not Censorship... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hkorens

        ...advocating for censorship, and the end result would not be censorship.  The Nazi music would continue to exist and the Nazi labels that produce it would continue to sell it, and nobody can, would, or should be able to call Uncle Sam on them.

        I believe the content of this diary makes that clear.  I understand it's long and you may not be inclined to read it, but if you're going to make such an accusation if would probably be helpful to do so.

        •  What are you asking from Apple and Amazon? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MGross, Switched On

          To not sell the music?  Should we ask Google to disallow racist search results?  They make money off it too.

          •  I would go the other way. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rockhound

            If they are going to sell music that advocates and praises violence then they should also sell porn.

            Unfortunately we live in a puritan society where nudity and porn are evil while violence is the American dream.

            I was Rambo in the disco/ I was shootin' to the beat/ When they burned me in effigy My vacation was complete. Neil Young

            by Mike S on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 01:02:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Agreed on Apple porn hypocrisy, but (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Switched On

              adding another wrong (music cesoring by Apple) would just make things worse in our 'free' society.

              •  Apple Already Censors Music... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rockhound, SouthernBelleNC49

                ...and I realize from your comments you're against this policy, but I thought I'd point it out again.

                Dancehall reggae songs calling for the mass murder of homosexuals was removed from iTunes about 2 years ago after consumer protest and remains unavailable.  

                I understand your position is they shouldn't do it at all, but they already do do it, and I personally believe it should extend to material produced by neo-Nazi record labels.

                •  You're asking them to go further backwords. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Switched On

                  iTunes sells anti-gay rap music.  Should we add that to the list of things Apple should burn?  They sell a lot of books I'd love to see burn as well, but burning those might harm my precious shiny new iPad.

                  Did I mention I have an iPad?

                  •  Would You Agree... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    rockhound

                    ...that someone taking your position, if so strongly held, should ask Apple/iTunes to sell "Boom Bye Bye" again and other dancehall songs calling for the mass extermination of gays?  Obviously, I don't mean you support that message--I understand where you're coming from in terms of the underlying principle.  However, support for the principle should include attempts to have Apple reload that content.

                    You may not take the time to do it, but why not if you'd like to see Apple's position be one of the principle you see, but that they don't actually have?

            •  Amazon does sell porn and adult toys (0+ / 0-)

              If they are going to sell music that advocates and praises violence then they should also sell porn.

              Porn : http://www.amazon.com/...

              Adult toys : http://www.amazon.com/...

              sort of blows that comment out of the water. I buy a lot of adult novelty items from amazon due to them being much cheapoer that at retail outlets like Adult Video Megaplex.

              So since they sell porn and adult toys, their first amendment rights about freedom of speech (and sales there of) should be protected for the sales of any music content, even if we don't agree with the content in the material on the album being sold.

              As stated int he other diary, you need to attack the publisher and the artist, not a business trying to make a profit (at discounted, tax free prices) that are used to crete jobs and pay workers.

              I believe in the Constitution and the rights it give everyone, even to those that I can't stand.

              •  Amazon Sells 0 Hardcore Pornography Films... (0+ / 0-)

                ...directly.

                The book you link to is a book of pornstars photographed posing clothed & nude, it is not hardcore pornography.

                Amazon does not sell hardcore porn directly, despite it's legality and despite the fact the $$ in hardcore is astronomical, especially over the anonymous internet.  They don't sell it because they're not content neutral and don't want the heat of selling that stuff.  Once in awhile you'll see a third party seller selling a title used or something in the marketplace, but Amazon doesn't.

                I also state again that consumer buying choices--to reward companies you like and punish those who take actions you don't--has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment.

                •  Your're right (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  edtastic

                  Guess I should have them remove this title then

                  http://www.amazon.com/...

                  It is only listed unrated and sold directly by amazon.

                  They also have

                  Thick Chocolate Bottom Girls DVD
                  3.0 out of 5 stars (2)  $12.49
                  Suggested by 18 customers  

                  JUICY BABES COLLECTION 2 DVD ~ALL STAR OF YUMMY GIRLS
                  4.0 out of 5 stars (1)  $15.99

                  which are also listed either XXX or Unrated and sold directly from Amazon.

                  but lets not get facts in the way of things.

                  By writing to a company and stating your objections to their content is good and I agree with it.. however I do not condone your writing in for an attempt to personally violate of their First Amendment Rights by way of blackmailing the company with threat of personal or group boycott. You already have the choice of not purchasing the hateful content, and you have the choice of not purchasing from them at all. Forcing them to drop content you don't agree with, that is censorship and as such goes against the very principle of the First Amendment.

                  Like I keep stating.. I may hate what someone has to say.. it may make me puke and feel sick to my stomach for says on end.. however I will defend their Firt Amendment right to say what they want.

                  If you want to fight it, take the argument to the group itself that is creating and producing the hate material, educate them and change their mind, show them that at some point in history that their heritage is mixed blood (as is almost everyone's in the world) and fight the hate at its source with the proper means. Not by violating their Unalienable rights guaranteed by the Constitution of the USA.

                  I agree with you in Principle, just not in your methodology.

                  •  From The First Review of... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    edtastic

                    ...the link you provide to prove Amazon.com directly sells hardcore pornography:

                    Uhhh... uhmmmm... disappointment.
                    The dvd cover is extremely misleading. This was just a bunch of somewhat semi-voluptuous models posing for a mock photoshoot. There was nothing interesting about this video, and in my opinion it was a waste of menoey and not even worth the free shipping that i got through amazon prime.

                    The other titles you mention are all-girl "mediumcore" at most, the reviews demonstrate.

                    I repeat: Amazon.com does not sell hardcore (heterosexual or penetrative homosexual (you know: dudes) pornography directly, because they've made a business decision not to sell that content despite it's legality, and despite claims they don't engage in content regulation.

                    I not only believe, but feel it's objectively accurate to state that personal buying choices based on the behavior of companies--whether taken alone or in a group, whether made silently or spoken about--in no way implicates the 1st Amendment, as no government action or repression is involved in any way, and the legality of the underlying material is not effected by such actions.

                    •  If I tell my wife to shut up (0+ / 0-)

                      I am violating her First Amendment rights.. period.. and I am not the government.. my wife has the right to say what she wants, when she wants, how she wants by the First Amendment.

                      My telling her to shut up is a violation of her rights.. Then If I were to ask the kids to join me to tell my wife to shut up or be quite, I have just involved a group to actively violate my wife's First amendment rights, and as such could be seen as coercion oir even blackmale, which in itself borders on criminal.

                      Doing the same thing to a business because they are selling a material youdisagree with, when it is their constitutional right to do so is blatantly wrong.

                      You deal directly with the problem and you do it in a legal manner in which it does not violate their constitutionsl rights.

                      the problem isn't amazon.. it is amazon't right to cary what ever material they deem fit or worthy or unworthy, as guaranteed by the constitution.. and as such, since they aren't producing the material or making the material, action against them is not the correct course of action..

                      The correct course of action is by taking matters within legal bounds to the producers and artists and educate the creatiors of the problem and repeat the true message over and over again until they have no other choice but to think about it and possibly change their attitude and message.

                      Oh, BTW.. you may want to keep digging into Amazon.com for hardcore titles.. like maybe Debbie Does Dallas

                      http://www.amazon.com/...

                      http://www.amazon.co.uk/... (though that is UK only)

                      http://www.amazon.com/... (Studio: Vivid-Ed )

                      http://www.amazon.com/...

                      http://www.amazon.com/...

                      http://www.amazon.com/... (He goes to seedy back alleys where others are engaging in hard core sex, and the director holds nothing back in these scenes, movie theaters, parks, whatever necessary.)

                      Now if you can't find hardcore porn on Amazon, you aparently aren't looking.

                      Granted that the 5 to 10 min fuck fest films are not rampant on Amazon doesn't mean that they don't have a lot of storyline hardcore porn available.

                      but much like the neo-nazi music you are wanting removed from amazon, you really have to dig to find it.

                      But anyhow, Thought I would show you that amazon does carry such titles, however if you just go in looking for GAY or XXX .. things won't come up, but if you go into Movies and Videos and search for anal, or cock, then lots of things come up.. however the meaningless 5-10 min fuck fests that most people consider hardcore pronography is mainly not available.. BUT storyline hardcore fuck films are quite availble. You just have to dig.

                      •  None Of The Hardcore Titles... (0+ / 0-)

                        ...you list is sold by Amazon, it sold through their marketplace feature by 3rd party sellers.  Amazon does not stock, sell, or ship any of it.

                        As for the British Amazon video you listed with the suggestive "hardcore" title, here are excerpts from the first two reviews:

                        I got my copy off Ebay as a present for a friend. It's tame enough to be a 12 certifcate and for daytime viewing on TV. The only way an 18 certificate could possibly apply is for the misleading title. Deinitely a case for the ASA.

                        would not recomend this at all, and definately would not consider it to be "hardcore". Camera angles are shot from the waste up, and quite often people are having sex in the underwear, I've seen better on channel 5.

                        As a factual, legal issue, you are incorrect with your analogy.  You or your kids would absolutely not be violating any 1st Amendment rights if you behaved that way.  That is not what the 1st Amendment is, that is not what it says, that is not how it is treated & enforced by courts now, at point in our history, or in the conception of the authors of the Bill of Rights.

                        I'm not trying to drop the lawyer bomb, but I am one and spent 3 years in law school with this stuff.  And the analogy you use is just not what the 1st Amendment is.

                        Now, you might think that behavior towards your wife is lamentable and inappropriate if you or your family did it, but it has nothing at all to do with the Constitution.

                        You may furthermore think my words & campaign against these retailers is something you don't support, but again, it has nothing to do with the Constitution.

                        The 1st Amendment protects most forms of free expression (not all, but that's another story) from government regulation, suppression or punishment.  And that's not what this is, at all.

          •  Yes. (0+ / 0-)

            We would prefer they not sell the music. Get it?

            Weenie liberals of the world unite! ...soccergrandmom

            by Giles Goat Boy on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 01:02:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What if they agree... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OtterQueen, Switched On

              ...to stop selling nazi music, but they continue to sell copies of "Mein Kampf" and "The Turner Diaries"?

            •  Better still, sell it and contribute the profits (0+ / 0-)

              to anti-hate groups.  Make sure that every dime that comes in from selling that shit ends up in the hands of people who are trying to end bigotry.

              They only call it Class War when we fight back.

              by lineatus on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 01:21:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  CD Baby... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lineatus

                ...the online music seller through which much of this stuff is actually sold, does exactly that.

                The principal of that site has said when interviewed on the subject in the past that for every 1 dollar he makes off of identifiably racist/genocidal music sold through CD Baby, 2 dollars are donated to anti-racist groups.  If that's true--and I have no way to verify--it would mean they actually lose money on each sale, I think.

                While I disagree with their decision to help distribute Nazi record labels and personally choose not to buy from CD Baby, it at least has something of a consistent principle with an attempt to uphold that principle without profiting from it, so long as what they've said about it is true.

                There is no principle when it comes to iTunes/Apple or Amazon.  They sell it because they profit from it, and they keep those profits.

        •  I think it might help (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Giles Goat Boy, angry marmot

          to put more emphasis on the double standard. I myself reacted mostly with a “meh” until the bit about inconsistent policy, and that was quite a ways in.

          Maybe your next diary could frame it more as a “what they allow versus what they ban” side-by-side sort of thing. Porn is bad, but genocide advocacy is fine? (This tactic was used very effectively in This Film Is Not Yet Rated (straight sex = R, gay sex = NC-17).)

          Formerly known as Jyrinx.

          “If I can't dance to it, it's not my revolution.” ― Emma Goldman

          by Code Monkey on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 01:07:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Did you read the shat first? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hester, rockhound

        Diarist is asking you to boycott and register your disgust as a private citizen consumer.

        I mean really, at least read the diary before you take a shat in the tip jar.

        Weenie liberals of the world unite! ...soccergrandmom

        by Giles Goat Boy on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 12:58:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  If You Agree, Thanks For Your Help... (8+ / 0-)

    ...if you don't, spirited debate always accepted.

    I ain't perfect, but I'll try to remain respectful if you do.  If I fail (as I have in the past), call me on it.

  •  You make some interesting points. (7+ / 0-)

    My innitial thought is one of disagreement because in many of these instances I think the market should make the decision. But this point by you is the one that has the most power to sway me:

    This is not a 1st Amendment issue.  It's a consumer pocketbook issue.  It's registering disgust with a corporation that's done a cost-benefit analysis that turns out when way when dealing with naked people fucking and another when dealing with music calling for the murder of people like me because of who my parents are.  

    We live in a country where sex is bad but violence is rewarded.

    I will have to give this more thought. Thanks for the mind food.

    I was Rambo in the disco/ I was shootin' to the beat/ When they burned me in effigy My vacation was complete. Neil Young

    by Mike S on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 12:44:45 PM PDT

  •  I like your idea but you might as well (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Samulayo, The Raven, angry marmot

    try to get the salmon to stop swimming upstream.

    iPhone users will never give up their iTunes. The real "death metal" in iPhones is the tin, tungsten, and tantalum used to make them. We can show them hundreds of dead and myriads of rape victims in the Congo (where 90% of tungsten and tantalum come from and the soldiers use murder and rape as tools to control the profits from the mines) and they don't care. They're going to have their iPhone and that's the last word on that.

    A little hate speech? It's not going to phase most of them.

    Those who forget the lessons of history are probably watching Glenn Beck.

    by ontheleftcoast on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 12:48:51 PM PDT

  •  Won't boycott, because (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hester, wader, Giles Goat Boy

    I ALREADY boycott Apple and Amazon, and have for years -- Amazon because it's anti-union and monopolistic, and Apple because everything it sells is overhyped and overpriced.

    But I appreciate the diary. Tipped and recommended, and I'll help spread the word.

    "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

    by Ivan on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 12:57:38 PM PDT

    •  iTunes is a greater monopoly (0+ / 0-)

      Than Amazon. Who is iTunes next competitor? In music, probably Amazon. Let's see how the titians fight it out as iTunes increases written content sales with iPad.

      A fundamental principle of Apple business is closed, proprietary systems and over time they have perfected that formula.

      Bright shiny objects that enchant and hypnotize consumers to shop at a company store that dictates pricing in both directions (musical artists or producers can take their offer get shut out) and customers.

      I buy CDs and make my own lossless files. It's actually more expensive but provides artist/producers compensation for their work and a better source for my Hi-fi at home.

      What about my Daughter's future?

      by koNko on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 05:11:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  In the Olde Days of Music (5+ / 0-)

    This may have been more of an issue, when record shops had limited space. Now, the online databases of music hold so much that each song is a molecule in the ocean. You would have to what this material is in order to find it.

    The real way to exterminate - and I use that word deliberately - this kind of vile music is to make it uncool. It's mainly consumed by young people and they will always gravitate to "forbidden" content.

    In other words, any kind of campaign to expunge this kind of garbage from Amazon et al. would probably have the opposite desired consequence. But kids won't buy anything with the patina of dweeb and dork on it.

    Jake and Elwood Blues running the Nazis off the bridge into the water goes a lot further toward reducing the market for skinhead anthems. Better to just ignore it if you don't see it, and jeer at it if you do.

    Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

    by The Raven on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 01:07:01 PM PDT

    •  I Personally Believe This Counterposition.... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wader, The Raven

      ...is the most convincing of all that I have encountered on the other side of the line form where I stand.

      I must admit, I don't know.  I don't know if directly combatting Nazi music in a consumer-protest sort of way ultimately raises its profile in a way that leads it to become more popular.  It's certainly possible.

      But in the end, I disagree.  Maybe it was growing up into punk rock anyway, which has a bizzaro-world counter-scene of Nazis, but I have always seen it as important to take a stand against this stuff, to point out its awfulness, to talk to, how shall I put it, "at risk" angry white kids in a constructive (and yes, "cool") way when they could go in the other direction if you just ignore it...

      But I accept your comment as powerful, and hell, maybe even right.  But I see it differently, myself.

      •  I do support you (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dyrrachium, Switched On

        In terms of what you want to do and very much enjoyed this discussion. A good diary with much to consider. Trendwatching and culture are part of my profession, along with language and I greatly appreciate the pains you took to clarify your thinking with respect to artistic expression.

        Like you, I don't see any First Amendment issue here, but artistic expression is a very delicate matter and almost always the people trying to shut down some kind of music they don't like are wrong.

        You confronted this carefully and I give you kudos for that.

        Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

        by The Raven on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 01:32:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'm a HUGE First Amendment proponent (4+ / 0-)

    and I have no problem whatsoever with this approach.  

    The First Amendment means the government cannot in any way restrict our freedom of speech based on content, no matter how vile that content may be.  

    I, on the other hand, as a private individual, can exercise my right not to patronize a business on any grounds I choose, including the fact that some policy of that business offends me.  No matter what the business.  If there is a local restaurant run by a fundamentalist Christian with Christian signs/references throughout, and that offends me, I am free not to patronize that business and to tell the proprietor why.  He/she can then decide whether it makes good business sense to adjust the surroundings, or whether, due to his customer base, it actually helps him to have those signs/references.

    I have no problem with private individuals using their buying power to make business more responsive to their wants and desires.  This is especially true today, when people who want to sell this kind of thing can do it directly over the internet themselves.  

    That said, I would take this position equally if some right wing group wanted to start a boycott of Amazon or ITunes for Lady GaGa.  It is their right as a consumer to use their buying power in that way.  That's basic and fundamental to our system.  Whether they are successful in having a business change their practices depends on how many people they can get to go along with their economic pressure on the business.  

  •  "That doesn't mean we need to help it" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Samulayo, Switched On

    Ok, I'll keep my purchase of NeoNazi songs right at the current level of... none.

    That was easy.

    I'm certainly not going to harass iTunes to try and pull their music, though.

  •  Thank you for the information (0+ / 0-)

    I had no idea neo-nazi, white supremacist music even existed. I looked up the Bully Boys on YouTube and found their video view counts are in the tens of thousands, with far too many "I like this" ratings. I can't even imagine what sort of depraved people would listen to something like that. Yeah, I support your efforts. Retailers should not be selling this.

    "I had seen the universe as it begins for all things. It was, in reality, a child's universe, a tiny and laughing universe." Loren Eiseley

    by cadejo4 on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 01:52:51 PM PDT

    •  P.S. While I flagged the video I looked at (0+ / 0-)

      I doubt that will have much of an impact. I don't think YouTube should be hosting hate speech either. This all just sends a cold chill down my spine. I can't imagine what blacks or Jews must feel.

      "I had seen the universe as it begins for all things. It was, in reality, a child's universe, a tiny and laughing universe." Loren Eiseley

      by cadejo4 on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 01:59:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Boycott the way to go. (0+ / 0-)

    Instead of calling on Apple and Amazon to censor the music I think a boycott would be the best way to go. Maybe contact "Color of Change" who organised the boycott of Glenn Beck after he made those racist comments about Obama.

    Thing is America is a free country. If someone wants to make Neo-Nazi songs they free to make them. The rest of us are also free to boycott any store that sells them.

    After all I listen to some fairly radical left wing music myself. Rage Against the Machine have some lyrics that a lot might consider politically violent like their cover of Cypress Hill's "Fuck the Police". Same with Immortal Technique who suggests murdering counter-revolutionaries in one song. British rapper Lowkey is also fairly "out there" but don't think has ever implied violence.

    Clearly iTunes probably should be encouraged through boycotts to stop selling neo-nazi music. But by implementing censorship god knows what out music they would also ban.  

    Non Violence is fine... so long as it works. - Malcolm X

    by Dr Marcos on Wed Sep 15, 2010 at 03:36:14 PM PDT

  •  What I'd like to know... (0+ / 0-)

    is if Amazon and iTunes sell any radical left wing music, stuff published by communists and anarchists and the like. If they don't, then that really is one hell of a double standard. Does anyone know anything about whether they do or not?

    •  What sort of (0+ / 0-)

      "radical left wing music" have you encountered that you'd consider equivalent to the lyrics quoted in the diary?

      •  (finally responding, lol) (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rockhound

        Okay, you've got me there. There really is no conceivable equivalent in radical left wing music, that I can think of, to the lyrics quoted in the diary. Based strictly on the title alone, the only thing I can come up with that is remotely close is the song "Bring Me My Machine Gun," which apparently President of South Africa Jacob Zuma is fond of recalling in his public appearances, although that song is as much a nationalist song as a left wing song.

        I guess what I was more curious about was whether or not there was any genuinely left wing music available on Amazon and iTunes at all, and not whether there was any with the kind of reprehensible violence and hatred seen in the lyrics quoted above. Because if there is, I'd like to buy some. And if there isn't so much as a single solitary collection of Spanish Civil War Republican Army/International Brigade marching songs, then I will be supremely disappointed.

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