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My local paper asked a question to the man in the street last week.  "How do you feel about teachers carrying guns in school?"  The majority of respondents thought it was a good idea.  Of course, I live in central Texas, so I don't know if this reflects on the nation as a whole.

After you read my diary below, think about the scenarios where teachers packing heat in schools could occur.

       The day two enabled and deranged young people shot up Columbine high school I was teaching in Colorado Springs, CO just an hour down the freeway.  I was between a 7th grade English class and an 8th grade science class at a middle school when I heard the first news.  It was like being punched in the gut and hit over the head at the same time.  

As the reports kept coming in we learned more about what happened including how many were killed and wounded.  When I got home that evening I watched the unfolding story on the Denver television stations.  I can’t begin to tell you how cold and eviscerated I felt when I learned that one of the victims was a teacher.  The teacher bled out after being shot while trying to protect his students.  The question immediately became, "Would I be so brave?"  

Next day we teachers at school were asking that question amongst ourselves.  The overwhelming response was, "Yes".  We would do what we could to protect our students.  After all, when they were in our classrooms they were our children.  Later that day, I discovered that one of my students’ cousins was one of the victims at Columbine.  Also, the son of one of my wife’s colleagues was present, but escaped unharmed.  That was too close for me.

This week our paper ran its question to the residents. It asked what people thought about teachers carrying guns in school.  A chilling number said that would be O.K.  That response spoke volumes to me about the mentality of our community and our country:  We will ask our school teachers to be armed like a park ranger, a policeman, even a private citizen.  Good for us.

Well, we have not yet become an armed camp here in the land of the free and the home of the brave, but here in Texas we sure want it to be that way.  I have written a couple columns about fear and it is clear that we fear each other so much that we all must be armed to defend ourselves against the one-in-a-million event of some crazy, demented, sociopath who had easy access to a gun or guns.

Just the other day in Poway, CA just outside San Diego, some crazy guy hopped the fence of an elementary school mumbling about the President and started popping rounds injuring two children.  What if the teacher in the playground had been packing heat?  Would she/he have drawn down on this guy and shot him dead?  Or would he/she missed, and hit the kid across the school yard, or the old lady across the street, or the mailman walking his beat?  

How much gun training would our taxpayers be willing to cough up to ensure that our teachers knew how to react and respond in a life-threatening situation where guns are present?  The country spends millions on police and military personnel to do just that.  Why should our teachers become combatants in this society?  They have plenty to do teaching and nurturing our children, don’t they?

This writer is so fed up with this pre-occupation with violence and firearms that I can hardly speak.  But speak I will.  The United States experiences more deaths by gun, per capita, than any other "civilized" nation.  There are those who will parse statistics from this or that agency denying that, but we still kill between 10,000 and 12,000 of our citizens with guns.  

Arming teachers provides both a deterrent and a temptation.  Children who are violence prone might try to disarm a teacher who is physically less capable than they are.  Then what?  In my small Texas town we may not have that big a worry, but what about armed teachers in large schools in inner cities where drugs and violence are normal to the daily experience?  What about a teacher who feels cornered and threatened by a troublesome student or students?  Is she/he going to start popping off rounds defending her/him self?  

One of the biggest deterrents to learning is fear.  A child who is afraid or who lives/works in a fearful environment learns nothing except how to protect him/her self.  Is that what we send our children to school for?

Originally posted to dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 06:16 AM PDT.

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Should teachers carry guns in schools?

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (21+ / 0-)

    "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

    by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 06:16:26 AM PDT

    •  Why aren't we discussing why our children are (10+ / 0-)

      acting out their violent tendencies or fantasies?

      During the 18th and 19th Centuries, we were the most heavily armed society in the history of humanity, more so than today, yet no school shootings, no random rampages of the mentally unstable.

      What's changed? Besides the fact that gun ownership is less now, comparatively.

      Why aren't people being taught personal responsibility and control?  Why haven't our children been given the tools necessary for success in our society?  Why do they feel compelled to violently act out?

      Until you/we get to the bottom of the causes, all the emotional reactions/solutions only serve to shut the barn door after the horses got out.

    •  I'm surprised this isn't recommended. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      madmsf, OMwordTHRUdaFOG

      Very interesting discussion.

      The true danger in politics is when people in power elevate ideological purity over their basic humanity, empathy, and common sense. -- thereisnospoon

      by alliedoc on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 08:17:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've written diaries... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OMwordTHRUdaFOG, alliedoc, ban nock

        on public education and other topics including the horrors of our inner cities for almost 3 years and never been recommended.  Not that many folks are that interested.

        I write a weekly column for a local paper and get the same response.  Nobody cares, it seems until you hit a trigger issue like guns.  This thread will top 200 comments, but a positive column on fixing parenting or schools will receive only about 2 or 3 dozen at most.

        It is the way we are, but thank you for the compliment.  I'm sure Kestral won't agree.  LOL.

        "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

        by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 08:31:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I write letters to the editor (7+ / 0-)

          about funding teachers and schools, and I'm the only one. I write when there is a ballot issue vote coming up. Not one other letter from all those PTA types. Our schools need to organize.

          "slip now and you'll fall the rest of your life" Derek Hersey 1957-1993

          by ban nock on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 09:06:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I understand. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            buddabelly, Gravedugger

            And good for you.  I write a weekly column in my local newspaper and have published a 5-part series on public education.  All the community can talk about is the football team - which is 2-5.  You get the idea.

            It's pretty depressing to watch the second best idea we've ever had get dismantled.

            "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

            by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 09:42:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Are you familiar with Dave Cullen's (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OMwordTHRUdaFOG, oldpunk

          book on Columbine?  I thought it was excellent.  I'd be interested in your opinion if you're familiar with it.

        •  "Fixing parenting"??? (6+ / 0-)

          Since I'm knew to your diaries and postings (sorry, I haven't seen any before today), why does parenting need to be fixed?

          Wait, let me express what I see wrong here:

          1.  For over 3 generations Americans have been "schooled" into believing that the state must take care of them. As we became less and less industrialized, more and more parents had no other choice but to work longer hours and more jobs just to survive.  We know the idea of just one parent being able to support their families is a distant memory.
          1. These economic pressures have resulted in parents also being forced into the compromising position that they cannot actually parent their children.  

          Without knowing what local paper you write for or your suggested "solutions", such as "fixing parenting", I'm personally offended that you believe it's somehow the parents fault today.

          I see them having no choice in the matter.  The "nurturing" theories are another self-creating problem. It's become a commonly accepted ideal that society knows what's best for our children, not the actual parents.  And unless parents accept these false ideals, they're branded "unfit", "irresponsible" and "lazy".

          How did they become this way?  

          IMHO, Outcome Based Education.  

          •  Actually,.... (0+ / 0-)

            I've seen the majority of parents you describe at least try to be good parents.  But you're right, the pressure on the middle class family is acute.  

            That said, maybe teachers should be given more latitude in child rearing since that's what they're doing much of the time.

            Don't be offended.  It is the parents' fault when they let their kids do whatever the hell they want - like those Columbine boys.  Those upper middle class parents didn't even know the kid was making pipe bombs in their garage or that they were surfing nazi websites, etc.  They even bought the kid a 2-year old BMW for his 16th birthday.  Can you spell, enabled?  That's what I'm talking about.  In the inner city, parents, when present are even less prepared to raise a kid on the tough streets.  What do you do about that?

            "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

            by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 09:47:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Not in the inner circle. I just got an email (0+ / 0-)

          about a diary for which I was asked to go and rec it so it would get on the rec list.  I didn't know the user so I guess it was through the new kos spam thing.

          The true danger in politics is when people in power elevate ideological purity over their basic humanity, empathy, and common sense. -- thereisnospoon

          by alliedoc on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 02:23:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  No (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doc2, mango, alliedoc, dolfin66, CuriousBoston

    No to teachers packing. What next? Day care workers?

    •  One teacher packing (14+ / 0-)

      as you put it, at Columbine could have stopped both Klebold and Harris, who would not have obeyed any rules in the first place.
      You may not like that.
      You may choose not to believe it.
      but it is true.

      If you have a parrot and you don't teach it to say,"Help, they've turned me into a parrot", you are wasting everybody's time.

      by kestrel9000 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 06:32:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  One teacher packing who happened to be in the (7+ / 0-)

        same room as they were, yes.  But, one teacher packing anywhere else in the school would have probably shot some kid as he/she ran in fear.

        The true danger in politics is when people in power elevate ideological purity over their basic humanity, empathy, and common sense. -- thereisnospoon

        by alliedoc on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 06:35:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  One teacher in the place were they started (4+ / 0-)

          That was a library or a cafeteria I can't remember exactly will have had to shoot in the middle of the chaos to a moving armed target. You know miss Rutheford the 510th grade lit teacher is sooooo trained to do that with out harming anyone else than the suspect[ect.

          What happened to that British prisoner the Talibans had and they tried to release her recently?

          •  Plus, a student who was running would have (4+ / 0-)

            probably been hit.  Add to that the "profile" of someone who is "likely" to be "bad".  Quotes to designate things that I would not have thought but perhaps someone else would have.  A black student.  A goth student.  A poorly dressed student.  Boys versus girls.  Long hair.

            Profiles.  In my kids's school, the goth kids are the theatre kids.  

            The true danger in politics is when people in power elevate ideological purity over their basic humanity, empathy, and common sense. -- thereisnospoon

            by alliedoc on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 06:49:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's my worry... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              alliedoc, dolfin66

              I fear I would have been shot, had I been in a situation with armed teachers similar to Columbine.

              I fear I would have been profiled in a half second as 'the enemy'.

              I will note that the most dangerous thing I ever brought to school was a rigging knife I accidentally left in my backpack after a camping trip.

              It is curious to see the periodical disuse and perishing of means and machinery, which were introduced with loud laudation a few years or centuries before. -RWE

              by Gravedugger on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:44:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  And it would be 2 on 1 as say they shot one, the (0+ / 0-)

            other would be shooting at them, then.
            As this was not like some school or workplaces where there is a lone gunmen. These 2 stayed together the entire time. They did not separate.

          •  They began their assault outside (0+ / 0-)

            the school near (I think) the main entrance.  But they were at different points near the entrance and not near each other.  After they shot a number of kids they then went inside.

      •  Would and could (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        doc2, mango, Ralphdog, alliedoc, CuriousBoston

        he or she could have been wrong and shoot another student, his/her weapon could have been stolen, he/she could have shot him/her self, he/she could have gone into an argument with his/her boyfriend/girlfriend  could have become a shooter inside the school him self.

        You have any kids? Will you say yes to your kids teachers packing? Under what rules? And the janitors? the cafeteria ladies?

      •  And if teachers packed in every school (8+ / 0-)

        in the country, we'd have a lot more dead students and teachers every year. Gun enthusiasts have the Constitutional right (apparently) to keep lots of guns at home, take them out every night, admire them, clean them, stand in front of the mirror living out the fantasy of drawing down on the bad guy and offing him just in time to save everyone and be a hero. It is absolutely your right to have a gun fetish. But lets keep these fucking things out of our schools, okay?

        I'm in the I-fucking-love-this-guy wing of the Democratic Party!

        by doc2 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 06:44:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Okay. (7+ / 0-)

          This:

          And if teachers packed in every school (0+ / 0-)
          in the country, we'd have a lot more dead students and teachers every year.

          is bullshit you pulled out of your ass with nothing to support it. It is not a fact.

          Then, fetishes and fucking things.

          You argue so well.

          If you have a parrot and you don't teach it to say,"Help, they've turned me into a parrot", you are wasting everybody's time.

          by kestrel9000 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 06:46:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If every teacher in the USA had a gun, how many (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wishingwell, dolfin66

            accidents would you expect each year? Law enforcement kill themselves every year by accident cleaning or loading their weapons. Law enforcement people are trained to be calm. There have been many incidents of law enforcement people out of control.

            School teachers, with little or no experience, tasked with teaching, cannot be expected to also be a police officer in their classrooms.

            •  Not to mention the fact that (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bleeding heart, CuriousBoston

              no form of gun security is perfect. Many guns would end up in the hands of students (or rogue teachers). The way I look at it, humans have a small but finite chance of going berserk on any given day (statistically, that is). I see berserk people all the time - at sporting events, on the highway, at the supermarket. It is always a good thing if guns are not around at these moments.

              I'm in the I-fucking-love-this-guy wing of the Democratic Party!

              by doc2 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:26:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes I agree doc, plus it is far better for the (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                doc2, OMwordTHRUdaFOG, Mandell

                school to hire well trained security guards. As many security guards are retired cops and know how to use a weapon.  I am all in favor of security guards who are armed being in schools or at schools that have a history of violence or kids packing weapons, having a cop there or a scanner as they enter the building. I think some city schools all ready have scanners set up and use them.

                •  I agree, hire pro's to guard... (5+ / 0-)

                  But I'd still allow a properly trained and willing educator to carry as backup. A teacher would probably act with more restraint than guards, and the uncertainty about who exactly can respond complicates any planned actions.

                  In fact, I recall several conversations with educators who wished they could carry in school, schools reflect what's in the community they service, some communities are very dangerous places.  One of them is my daughter who teaches sociology at the college level and managed to deeply offend the local Klan (not making this up, it really happened in rural Michigan of all places).

                  •  Actually I have more faith in law enforcement (0+ / 0-)

                    when it comes to discharging a weapon. Granted, there are some police who do not handle this well But by and large ,  police have to account for each time they use force and every shooting is investigated by internal affairs.

                    My uncle was a state cop who taught me a lot about how TV does not show things as they truly are. Police who fire a weapon go on desk duty for a few days or a few weeks until all the facts are gathered and evaluated and investigated. Then they get their service revolver back and are back on the streets once the shooting is determined to be justified.

            •  No kidding. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wishingwell, CuriousBoston

              I imagined this 65 year old female art teacher who could barely lift a paint brush trying to hold a bead on an enraged killer running around her room.  Lots of dead kids in that scenario.

              "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

              by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:31:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I imagine a group of parents fighting (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                wishingwell, esquimaux, dolfin66

                over Cabbage Patch Dolls.

                Humans are individuals. We have a parent going berserk because her kid didn't get to be cheerleader.

                We have a parent putting up a facebook page with skull and bones & the face of a dying 7 year old-because she didn't get a quick enough answer to a text message.

                Parents assaulting umpires/refs.

              •  Yes and even though my 51 yr old sister talks (0+ / 0-)

                tough and she has good control of her classroom and the teachers, administrators, kids, faculty, parents love her..she is 5 ft 2 inches tall, petite and getting older. Now some of her fellow teachers are large men in great shape and young who are coaches or former military.  And even they do nto want the teachers to be armed.

        •  Thank you. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wishingwell, CuriousBoston

          At least there are a few sane people like you out there.

          "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

          by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:30:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Why do so many anti's... (6+ / 0-)

          ...try so hard to bring sexual issues into this debate?

          I mean, really -- this has nothing to do with sex or fetishes or anything along those lines, except perhaps in the minds of those who keep bringing up genitalia when it comes to guns.  Here's a hint, it's not those who know what they're talking about who make these assertions.

        •  Spot on. (0+ / 0-)

          Assumptions are made about what a shooting scene would look like.

          Would the teacher be at the blackboard writing? Bent over reaching into a cabinet when the intruder walked in? How long would it take to sort out what's going on, grab a weapon (which means that the individual is prepared to shoot/kill) and figure out the correct target when all mayhem is breaking loose?

          And they can figure out all of that in time when 15 seconds ago, they were looking for Billy's math test that got mixed up with some other papers?

          Perhaps a little math would help: per the link below, how many people could be killed in that 15 seconds before the teacher got the gun to shoot the assailant -- or even pick the assailant out in the crowd? There are lots of different guns on the market, but the Glock military model is listed (others fire less rpm).

          Using this Glock, an assailant could (theoretically) fire 1/4 of 1200 rounds if they didn't have to reload. That's 300 shots in 15 seconds. The Glock has a 31 shot capacity magazine; that could be emptied by the assailant long before that 15 seconds was up without having to reload or grab another weapon.

          There is not enough time to react.

          Per -- Rifle Accessories, an on-line gun seller [emphasis added].

          The select-fire version of the Glock, called Glock 18, available only in 9mm Luger and only for Military / Law enforcement sales. Glock 18 could fire single shots or three-shot bursts. Glock 18 may be equipped with 31-rounds extended magazines and after-market folding stocks. For security reasons, some parts of the Glock 18 ARE NOT interchangeable with Glock 17/19 pistols. The theoretical rate of fire in full-auto mode is 1200 rounds per minute.

          Additionally, I'm reading comments here eschewing the safety aspect of having guns around and available. Having dealt with guns, I don't share that same view. Weapons are dangerous. Like the ocean, which I love, one must always be careful. No assumptions about anything should ever be made. A playful kid could grab it: tragedy.

          Even experienced folks mess up. I loved target practice. As a kid, I was secretary of the NRA(!), earned all my sharpshooter bars, distinguished/expert rifleman. I've handled and cleaned many a gun. My safety scores and attention were always excellent. And I've made two stupid mistakes which could have ended badly -- and I was experienced. I will never forget them even though no one knew and there was no bad outcome. I still shudder about them.

          And if assailants know that teachers are armed, who are they going to shoot first?

          You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else. -- Sir Winston Churchill

          by bleeding heart on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 09:38:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  OK... (5+ / 0-)

            your scenario, he walks into the room and shoots a teacher. That can't be stopped. My scenario, he walks up to 3 armed officers with a Glock 18 in a bookbag and shoots them all before they can react. Easy to do, shoot the first two in the head, you have 29 rounds for the last guy.  That first attack can't be stopped regardless of who is attacked, so the question is, what happens after the first bullet?

            You can't help the kids in the classroom, it's too late, they'll have to get get safe or get shot. Shot once, they have a 80% of living if they can get medical care quickly. Handguns are fortunately wimpy guns.

            At this point, the school is starting to react, there are teachers in adjoining rooms, they start to lock down the room. Does the gunman leave and start walking the halls? with other, unknown, armed presence about this complicates his mission quite a bit.

            The quickest way to prevent further loss of life and prevent the wounded from bleeding out (happened at Columbine) is to end this quickly.  The quickest way to bring this to a quick end is to give the people on the spot the means to do so.  That's the point.

            As for safety, I've already started on the diary, it'll be published Tues.

            •  Talk to someone who has been through (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AaronInSanDiego

              an attack. I have.

              Not one has ever said, "I wish I had a gun." Not one.

              If you know people who have been through a shoot out, replete with deaths, being held hostage and they tell you they wish they had a gun -- which I never have, at least know that even the opinions of those who have experienced the horror are divided.

              It's easier for those not involved to project a scenario and imagine what could happen.

              What they said instead was "there's no time to do anything. It happened so quickly. We had no idea what was going on."

              And as one person told me, "I'd like to have a talk, a long talk, with those who think being armed would make a difference." I didn't get the feeling that the individual would hold back on the very strong feelings and had plenty to say. But the remainder of the victim's words should be said by someone who has experienced what we're theoretically discussing.

              You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else. -- Sir Winston Churchill

              by bleeding heart on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 11:14:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  All handguns are dangerous. (0+ / 0-)

              To suggest otherwise is incorrect.

              Handguns are fortunately wimpy guns.

              "Wimpy" handgun:
               .22
               .25
               .32

              Want more power?
               .45
               .38
               .44
               .357

              If one looks at handgun death statistics, one wouldn't say that all handguns are wimpy.

              And if they're so wimpy, why would it do any good to "arm" teachers with them?

              As for safety, I've already started on the diary, it'll be published Tues.

              If your safety discussion includes the premise that "all handguns are wimpy," I'm afraid I'll have to pass.

              You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else. -- Sir Winston Churchill

              by bleeding heart on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 12:02:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Wimpy (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Shadan7, buddabelly, oldpunk

                It's just physics.  I've shot every one of the guns on that list plus a few more.  The most powerful hand gun on that list can be shot one handed, I've done it. That means, as we've understood since Newton, my hand+ gun must see the same force as the bullet leaving the gun. Ultimately, my arm must absorb the whole force.  Anyone's arm has a limited ability to do that.

                Your shoulder has a far greater ability to absorb force, please refer to any game of football to see this principle in action.  And long guns have that longer barrel, all the better to generate velocity in the bullet, and that velocity far more than the weight of the bullet is what carries energy to the target.

                The military standard sidearm uses 9mm parabelum ammunition. Most small police departments, and the two perps at Columbine also used it, it's very widespread. Out of a full sized gun, the maximum commercially available load (Buffalo Bore +P+ ammo which is way over spec and would never be used by law enforcement since it's so expensive to shoot) generates about 500 ft/lbs of energy.  That sounds like a lot, the gun is easily held and shot in one hand.

                The standard military round is the 5.56mm Nato. Note the small size, for reference this is almost identical in diameter to the .22 caliber round, the 9mm is much larger.  A typical military standard round fired from a typical rifle, has 1300 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle.  This gun could be fired one handed, but normally isn't.  What the US military used in WWII had nearly 3000 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle.  We fight to wound currently, it ties up more people on the other side carrying wounded.

                A 12 gauge shotgun with a 3" magnum load has 2600 ft/lbs of energy.

                So yea, for a gun, a handgun is a wimp. The amount of energy the target gets hit with is a fraction of other guns.

                But I think your point is that any gun can be deadly, and I agree.  Bullet placement determines whether or not a wound is survivable.  Some years ago a state trooper pulled over a motorist and discovered he had a warrant, when confronted the man drew a .22 caliber pistol and fired, hitting the officer.  The officer returned fire, hitting the man 4 times with .357 magnums. The officer, was hit in an armpit, where his bulletproof vest didn't cover, and bled to death at the scene.  The other guy survived, but of course will spend the rest of his life in prison.

                So in situations as we describe here getting fast medical treatment to people will save the large majority (83%) of people shot with handguns.

              •  Desert Eagle .50 bore? n/t (0+ / 0-)

                It is curious to see the periodical disuse and perishing of means and machinery, which were introduced with loud laudation a few years or centuries before. -RWE

                by Gravedugger on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:50:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  if you know so much about guns then you should (6+ / 0-)

            know your example of a Glock 18 is ridiculous.

            The 18 is an NFA weapon, there's only a very few in existence here in the states, and the odds that a teacher, considering the salaries paid, or a criminal shooter would have a 10-15k gun to shoot with is beyond ridiculous.

            Reality is whatever they are armed with it will be semi auto at most..........

            So your 1200 rounds a minute is equivalent to brady bunch nonsense.

            •  The 18s (0+ / 0-)

              are available, used by police.

              In my comment, I acknowledged that the model I chose was a higher level model:

              There are lots of different guns on the market, but the Glock military model is listed (others fire less rpm).

              If you don't like the model selected, select another on that link and do your own numbers. Or find another brand of semi-automatic handgun. Fine by me. The calculation will still come out to a lot of shots fired in a very brief amount of time of any semi-automatic weapon.

              You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else. -- Sir Winston Churchill

              by bleeding heart on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 11:31:52 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  If teachers had guns at school (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        alliedoc, dolfin66, CuriousBoston

        kids seeking guns wouldn't have to work so hard to find them at home.

      •  Or a student might have shot a classmate. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        doc2, TexasLiz, dolfin66, CuriousBoston

        That's the thing about firearms. They don't care who's pulling the trigger. Having legal firearms in every classroom to prevent an astronomically rare mass murder event essentially guarantees some tragic accidents. It's just what guns do.

        Gun supporters always argue that with sufficient training, widespread gun ownership would be a great thing for crime control. But this completely ignores the literally mind-boggling stress that comes with using a firearm for real in a life and death situation. Highly trained police officers and SWAT team members routinely kill and wound innocent bystanders, hostages and fellow officers due to the incredible anxiety, jitters and faulty judgement that are absolutely inevitable in such circumstances. And for minimally trained teachers, multiply by ten or so.

        •  It's just math, really. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ralphdog, TexasLiz, CuriousBoston

          If school attacks happened multiple times daily, I may have a different view. But arming a hundred thousand teachers to prevent the next Columbine? I can't believe that anyone actually thinks this a good idea.

          I'm in the I-fucking-love-this-guy wing of the Democratic Party!

          by doc2 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:18:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes this is not Somalia , this is not a country (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            doc2

            where widespread school violence is happening even on a weekly basis.  Granted a few per year are too many but that does not mean we need to go all militia and go overboard.

            It would be different if we were hearing of weekly school shootings or even monthly school shootings. They are actually quite rare when you think about all the schools in this country.  Most schools in our country have had zero violent episodes in their entire history.

        •  Perfect. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CuriousBoston

          "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

          by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:37:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Oh. I believe it. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wishingwell, CuriousBoston

        It's just that if we arm everybody for the one-in-a-billion event, the odds for death by gun to occur skyrockets everywhere.  Do you see that?

        "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

        by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:23:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The Columbine shooters were heavily armed, they (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        madmsf, dolfin66, CuriousBoston

        had an arsenal and even planted homemade bombs around the school.  

        I am not convinced one teacher with a gun could have stopped them. First of all, there were 2 of them and they stayed together the entire time.
        And second of all, each of them had more than one weapon.  The teacher would have had to be a very good shot and if they shot one, the other would fire on them.  2 on 1 ..not good odds.

      •  That one teacher packing a gun (0+ / 0-)

        would have had to have been at the right place at the right time.  It's impossible to say that that one hypothetical teacher could have stopped Harris and Klebold.

    •  Yes , my sister teaches in suburbran Atlanta (4+ / 0-)

      and a teacher was suspended there several years ago for having a car filled with guns parking in the school parking lot. I think the person was in the process of moving and had a bunch of hunting rifles and handguns  and ammo in the car.  The reason for the suspension and subsequently the teacher resigned was that anyone including the students could have broken into the car and amassed an arsenal. And the person knew the school policy.
      It is clearly stated.

      Georgia might be a conservative state but they are have a strict zero tolerance policy for teachers and students about weapons on school property.

      My sister is very petite and she has said she knows if she carried a weapon ( and she is in her early 50s), she could easily be overpowered.
      She is fiercely protective of her students and she has no discipline problems at all. But she would not be comfortable carrying a gun anywhere and she does not have one in her home. She does not have the rraining. My fear would be that some teachers would not have the training in the use of guns.

      And teens can be hysterical over small things, it often does take much. Imagine a situation where the teacher pulls out a weapon in a crisis ,the kids would really panic. And it is too easy to shot innocent bystanders in a school..too many kids around. ...density of kids congregated in any one place in a school is an issue.

  •  The larger point. (10+ / 0-)

    Not to offer a tautology, but here goes:

    Law abiding-people abide by laws.

    Criminals do not.

    And this:

    What about a teacher who feels cornered and threatened by a troublesome student or students?  Is she/he going to start popping off rounds defending her/him self?

     

    Well...if their life was honestly threatened, what would you have them do?

    If you have a parrot and you don't teach it to say,"Help, they've turned me into a parrot", you are wasting everybody's time.

    by kestrel9000 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 06:30:12 AM PDT

  •  What I have learned from having three kids in (10+ / 0-)

    Pennsylvania school systems (and the youngest just graduating from high school this year), is this:

    Teachers are people and there are all kinds.

    Teachers these days are very well trained and school districts have very systematic plans in place to deal with whatever happens.

    In our school, which is a big Pittsburgh area district where about 400 graduate each year from high school, there was one pretty big incident about five years ago.  A girl pretended that her boyfriend was stalking her.  She cut herself with something and said that he had done it and that he was in the school with a gun.  It was over quickly but the school went into Plan # something.  

    In my son's classroom, the teacher did what was required, locking the room, turning out the lights, drawing the blinds, etc.  He was cool and everyone was fine.  In my daughter's classroom, the teacher, a young woman, totally panicked.  She made all the kids sit along the walls with their heads on the floor.  She duct taped the doors and windows.  She cried.  She started talking about what she would do if any of the kids were killed.  The whole class freaked out.  My daughter, luckily, had gotten texts from her brother and he said not to worry so much as long as the door was locked.

    Anyway, I wouldn't have wanted that teacher to have a gun.

    The true danger in politics is when people in power elevate ideological purity over their basic humanity, empathy, and common sense. -- thereisnospoon

    by alliedoc on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 06:31:54 AM PDT

  •  A question: (13+ / 0-)

    Is someone actually proposing turning teachers into armed officers, such as police or park rangers?

    Or was the question: should teachers who have (or obtain) a concealed-carry permit be allowed to exercise that legal right on school grounds?

    Because the two are very different things. And conflating the two does not help your case, but rather seems to play into the rhetoric of fear you decry.

    Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

    by Shadan7 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 06:34:53 AM PDT

    •  Interesting point. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CuriousBoston

      My diary talked about training the teachers like the police or other LE types, otherwise you're asking for random bloodbath.

      As far as their CH rights go, I think the law covering not bringing firearms onto campus over rules everything else.

      "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

      by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:42:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Just NO! (6+ / 0-)

    I would like to have answered your pole, No, because it creates an atmosphere of hostility and fear in schools, AND someone is bound to be badly hurt by accident.

    Maybe it's just laziness, but while living in Fl. I saw how the availability of corporal punishment in schools leads to the careless use of ear flicks, swats, threats and nastiness even in the primary grades.  Most of the time, appropriate behavior by the teacher would have led to appropriate behavior by the student, both in the current situation and in future situations.  The easy resort to violence not only was unpleasant for the students, but led to a low-level undercurrent of adversarial hostility.

    I would certainly hope that the availability of guns in the classroom would not lead to quite the same easy use, but I don't see how it could avoid that nasty, adversarial hostility I saw.

    •  WHAAAT? (7+ / 0-)

      Most ridiculous comment in thread so far.
      you seriously are drawing  a parallel between the possibility of a teacher bing armed to protect lives and paddling of students?
      Seriously?
      You're seriously going there?

      If you have a parrot and you don't teach it to say,"Help, they've turned me into a parrot", you are wasting everybody's time.

      by kestrel9000 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 06:41:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  See, this is why I only lurk (6+ / 0-)

        The one time I know what I'm talking about, some jerk with a rigid, Utopian view of gun rights who's probably never set foot in a school since his own days as a student (I've worked in schools for 20 years) thinks he can simplify my statements about human behavior, including that of teachers, to make it look ridiculous.

        Bye.

        •  Rigid, utopian views (7+ / 0-)

          Riiight.
          And I'm a jerk because I called your comparison ridiculous. Ok, then. Have  a nice day.

          If you have a parrot and you don't teach it to say,"Help, they've turned me into a parrot", you are wasting everybody's time.

          by kestrel9000 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 06:50:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The commenter used utopian, I think, (0+ / 0-)

            because you do not seem to acknowledge there will be accidents.

            •  Accidents (7+ / 0-)

              should not be the metric used to curtail any right of any person.

              Don't believe what the politicians do, don't believe what they say, all they want to do is fuck you and get fat on their pay.

              by oldpunk on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:34:28 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It's not about rights. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                imokyrok

                It's about child safety.  You've lost your way.

                "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

                by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 08:09:51 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Our rights, freedoms and liberties (7+ / 0-)

                  are not inherently safe things. Besides I believe our children would be safer with teachers who if trained and competent with a firearm were allowed to carry,

                  Don't believe what the politicians do, don't believe what they say, all they want to do is fuck you and get fat on their pay.

                  by oldpunk on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 08:15:53 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You are very, very wrong. (0+ / 0-)

                    If you ever saw the kind of person who is a school teacher there is no way in hell you would want them in possession of a firearm in the midst of children.  As a former vet, trust me.

                    "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

                    by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 08:20:10 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  As a veteran, trust me. n/t (5+ / 0-)

                      Don't believe what the politicians do, don't believe what they say, all they want to do is fuck you and get fat on their pay.

                      by oldpunk on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 08:27:40 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  ? (0+ / 0-)

                        "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

                        by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 08:36:09 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  If you're that dense and a teacher, I pity your (5+ / 0-)

                          students and fear for their future.......

                          Maybe teachers should have to take a reading comprehension test.......

                          •  I thought my response was (5+ / 0-)

                            perfectly understandable, especially for someone with such a complex mind.

                            Don't believe what the politicians do, don't believe what they say, all they want to do is fuck you and get fat on their pay.

                            by oldpunk on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 12:33:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I thought so too, and I'm just a DFH who fixed (5+ / 0-)

                            cars and customers all my life.....

                            I'm sure my mind is nowhere near as complex and sophisticated as our illustrious diarist's........

                          •  You threw a wrench into this.... (0+ / 0-)

                            "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

                            by dolfin66 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 07:16:25 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't throw wrenchs, they're way too expensive (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            AaronInSanDiego, dolfin66

                            to treat that way.

                            I treat all tools with the respect they deserve, including my firearms.....

                          •  LOL (0+ / 0-)

                            Good for you.  I hope you get to use those firearms for real some day so you can see what kind of a tool they really are.

                            "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

                            by dolfin66 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 12:56:35 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I hope I never have to use them for anything but (0+ / 0-)

                            knocking down metallic silhouettes.  That would be optimum.

                            Unfortunately I know i'll have to kill a few more yotes and feral dogs as the years go by.

                            With luck, that's the only living things I ever have to shoot at.........

                          •  If you want to shoot.... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            buddabelly

                            feral HOGS, come to Texas.  There are millions of these damned things destroying everything in their paths.

                            They're smart, nocturnal and tough.  I hit one square from 75 feet with a 30-06/165 and just knocked it down.  It got up, ran around in circles and split.  Obviously I did not hit a vital spot, but damn.....

                            "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

                            by dolfin66 on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 09:32:21 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hogs are tough as hell, i have an (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            dolfin66

                            800 lb pet Barrow who is quite destructive and intimidating.  Also smart and friendly, scritch him and he flops for the belly rub.  You'd just better be out of the way when it happens or he'll squish you.

                            Personally I don't like to kill.  I will, when the yotes or dogs are hunting mine I will take them out no qualms but if I don't have to I don't.

                            Now my brother would take you up on that.  Supposedly we have a few here at Buenos Ares wildlife refuge but he spent a month hunting them and never saw more than tracks. He's a bowhunter primarily though and personally, I wouldn't want to get that close to a feral hog I'm shooting at.  The true crazies are the idiots who hunt them with a knife and dogs.....Might be a "back to the cave" thing but damn that's stupid imo....

                            Just too harsh a climate for feral hogs to make it here.  their niche is occupied by Javalina.  Which make excellent jerkey btw.......

                            Anything that can run after a hit from a 30-06 is one tough critter.....I'd probably use my Marlin 44mag lever, very heavy Keith style bullet, hard cast and cooking with either 2400 or 296 as a propellant.  Big meplat cuts a large hole and the hardcast penetrates well.  Plus a 300g slug at 2000fps hits with some serious energy......

                          •  If I had known.... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            buddabelly

                            I would have used my 220 grain silver tips.  As an elk hunter, the 30-06/180 was plenty of gun.  My wife even bagged a huge cow elk with her .270/150.

                            I read where some of the "great white hunters" of Africa are perfectly happy with a H&H .390 solid.  I think that's another 2000+ fps bullet and hits like a truck.  They say that going bigger than that loses accuracy.  I'll believe them.

                            Bow hunting feral hogs around here is way over the top.  You won't get a shot at night or day because they'll hole up in deep brush.  

                            BTW, I lived in Tucson in 1985 but got caught in the Hughes layoffs.  I am a biologist and absolutely loved the Sonoran Desert around there.  When I could get out of town and away from the people, the desert was so very clean.  It has the most diverse biome in the United States with more species of plants and animals than any other.  

                            "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

                            by dolfin66 on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 03:52:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I love it here, couldn't be dragged out but (0+ / 0-)

                            I live about 23 miles due north of Buenos Ares, about 25 miles SW of Tucson proper.

                            The desert is still beautiful but not nearly as clean.  Since Operation Gatekeeper pushed the migrant flow out to the desert instead of through the cities, the open desert hasn't been the same.

                            Water bottles, clothing, backpacks and such litter the desert.  There's regular drives to do cleanup but it grows as fast as it's picked up.

                            The last couple years have been better as the flow has slowed due to the crappy economy but this was also a record year for migrant deaths in the desert.

                            I still love it out here though. Took the quad out to the nearest cattle pond the other night.  No moon, pure black only starshine....Out my front window is a view of the Kitt Peak National Astronomical Observatories, quite beautiful the way the scopes light up in the early morning sun......

                            Raytheon, Hughes successor just picked up a couple huge contracts, I know they are hiring here again....A good buddy just got hired on their fire protection/suppression team, union pipefitter, he's making bank there.....

                          •  Sorry to hear about the desert (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            buddabelly

                            being trashed by other humans.  

                            I wish our construction, meat packing, tourist and agriculture industries wouldn't advertise south of the border for workers.  I wish that our governments would enforce the immigration laws that are on the books.  I wish we didn't have to resort to vigilante-ism to close our borders.  I wish for a lot of things, but few of them are profitable while most of them require people to actually do their jobs for the benefit of their fellow man.  Silly me.

                            "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

                            by dolfin66 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 at 07:02:08 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Good. (0+ / 0-)

                            Live in fear.  I don't care.

                            "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

                            by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 01:05:46 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  What for? (0+ / 0-)

                        "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

                        by dolfin66 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 07:15:57 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  More stuff you just made up, I see. (7+ / 0-)

                      I know quite a few school teachers -- some of them have concealed carry licenses.  I trust them completely with their firearms.

                      You clearly have some pretty bigoted views, assuming that all people who become teachers are identical to one another.

                    •  If they can not be trusted with a gun.... (0+ / 0-)

                      WHY THE HOLY LIVING FUCK SHOULD THEY BE TRUSTED WITH CHILDREN?!?!

        •  Not fair. Just because someone has (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Iberian

          rigid, Utopian views of gun rights does not make them a jerk per se. No need to get that hostile over an honest disagreement.

          I'm in the I-fucking-love-this-guy wing of the Democratic Party!

          by doc2 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 06:52:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Why you lurk is the same reason I sometimes (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Iberian, TexasLiz, CuriousBoston

          quit the DK for a time, because you have to explain things that should be obvious.  I think your comment was a tad off topic but related.  You have to think for a minute to see the parallel.

          An evolution of aggressive behavior.

          The true danger in politics is when people in power elevate ideological purity over their basic humanity, empathy, and common sense. -- thereisnospoon

          by alliedoc on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:00:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It only looks ridiculous (0+ / 0-)

          to someone buying the simplification.   Don't take it personally.   You're trying to make a more complicated point about human behavior and the overall effect guns in school would be likely to have.  Someone who has, obviously, become quite ideological and emotional about this subject over reacted to your comment.  Anyone reading can see that.  Don't take stuff like that personally and don't assume that you were the one made to look ridiculous.  

          An 'attack on the left' is the GOP in office destroying lives.

          by Sun dog on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:16:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  out in the world people are allowed to disagree (4+ / 0-)

          unlike students.

          "slip now and you'll fall the rest of your life" Derek Hersey 1957-1993

          by ban nock on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:52:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Bullshit. (0+ / 0-)

            A good teacher conducts classes where disagreements are analyzed such that the opposition parties understand why their opponents disagree.  Guns don't do that do they?

            "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

            by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 08:10:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think your logic needs to be reassessed here (6+ / 0-)

              I'm not following your "logic".

              If disagreements are analyzed how do guns come into this equation?

              Are you making the assumption that if a teacher was allowed to carry their first and only solution would be violence because as we all know "guns make people violent"? That last question was snark!

              I'm truly disappointed in your replies throughout this diary.

              I came in here thinking it would be an mature open  discussion.

              Your personal insults, personal attacks and attempts to badger and beat frighten me even further because you claim you are a school teacher.

              Is this how you teach our children?

              "If you don't agree kiddies, you must personally attack each other"

      •  Escalating a situation. The teacher(s) used bad (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dolfin66

        judgement, then the situations escalated. Do we want teachers with such bad judgement to have a gun in the classroom? Law enforcement screens for psycological problems. Law enforcement still has severe problems with improper use of force. Wouldn't that apply to teachers also?

  •  how about (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    buddabelly, oldpunk, Mandell

    one teacher (not known to other teachers or administrative staff except for Principal or the local police) in each school have training and license to carry a concealed weapon.... ONE and only one....the thought/understanding of that alone would/should inhibit school gun violence

    and that one gun-trained-permitted tocarry personnel is changed every year from a new selection among the teachers/staff who volunteer to take gun training ( instruction which would beavailable every year )

    the thought alone would inhibit school violence

    Election 2008 was the start it made each of you a shareholder in the mission of rebuilding, reclaiming our country and our future. - Barack Obama

    by anyname on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 06:45:50 AM PDT

  •  no (4+ / 0-)

    Of course, I live in central Texas, so I don't know if this reflects on the nation as a whole.

    it doesn't.  

    An 'attack on the left' is the GOP in office destroying lives.

    by Sun dog on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 06:56:24 AM PDT

    •  Perhaps just.... (0+ / 0-)

      Arizona, California, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia,the Carolinas, Virgina....  Shall I go on?

      "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

      by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:46:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Guns in the classroom aren't the answer. n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Iberian, CuriousBoston

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never has and never will be. Thomas Jefferson

    by JDWolverton on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 06:56:53 AM PDT

    •  BAsed on what? (7+ / 0-)

      Your personal distaste for them?

      If you have a parrot and you don't teach it to say,"Help, they've turned me into a parrot", you are wasting everybody's time.

      by kestrel9000 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 06:57:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Have you ever been a teacher? Of any age group? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wishingwell, Iberian

        I'm not a teacher. In Boston, there are street murders of people from 2 to about 35 or so. None in the schools, or on school property.

        If you have not taught in a classroom, I don't think you can fairly evaluate the situations that the gun will be brought into.

        •  Exactly and those who are teachers or (0+ / 0-)

          administrators or have family that are...know that since Columbine that new safety measures have been implemented and teachers are now more aware and report anything suspicious or even remotely troubling. And there is now in place a confidential reporting system for students. And actually the incidents of school violence has decreased in the past couple of years.  

          Most of the shootings now are workplace shootings.

          •  And teachers are now getting more training (0+ / 0-)

            about how to handle these situations should they arise. I think everyone is more aware now since Columbine. In fact,there are now firm policies in place and training manuals and more being used.
            President Clinton , in fact, was able to get some funding for a Safe Schools Iniative.

      •  Think! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CuriousBoston

        What's wrong with your synapses here?  I've been following your threads here and you just seem to be wired for guns, guns, guns.  

        Go to Afghanistan and see what guns do for real.  Go live in East St. Louis, IL and listen to the constant ringing of gunfire in the streets.  Go learn what guns do and what they're designed to do.  Your John Wayne days are not as you think they are.

        "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

        by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:48:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I don't detest guns. I've owned them before, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AaronInSanDiego, dolfin66

        but not now because my husband doesn't like them.

        I am a Democrat who doesn't favor gun laws. If you overly restrict gun ownership, then only criminals will have guns leaving law abiding citizens defenseless.

        I live in a Florida with the most permissive gun laws imaginable and the Stand Your Ground Law which means if someone attacks you; you can pull out your gun and shoot them dead and not be guilty of murder (much to the disgust of multiple Florida District Attorneys). I have no problem with either of these laws. As I write, I have about 20 or so weapons in my home (I make martial arts weapons). I don't detest guns, but I think they give people a false sense of security.

        There a many reasons why guns don't belong in a classroom, but I don't mind there being an uniformed, armed guard (or two) on campus. I just think the students will have even less reason to trust a teacher or administrator if they think they are packing heat. A lot of schools are very unpleasant for the students these days (my 10 years in education tell me this is a fact, not an opinion). A gun toting teacher in your mind might give the students peace of mind, which it should; but for the discouraged student, it's one more reason to drop out.

        The difference is that everyone expects an armed guard to act like an armed guard, but an armed teacher is confusing their role in the eyes of the student. Many students will no longer trust the teacher if they have even an inkling their teacher has a gun.

        If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never has and never will be. Thomas Jefferson

        by JDWolverton on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 08:41:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thank you for... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JDWolverton

          your sanity and understanding of the issue.  Not everyone has that clear a mind or understanding.

          "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

          by dolfin66 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 07:17:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Hundreds of thousands of kids (11+ / 0-)

    go through the public school system through thousands of schools every day, without incident. The Columbine tragedy was one brutal instance and should not be used as a benchmark for an untested supposition that the equipment of teachers with guns would lessen, as opposed to increase, gun fatalities in schools.  You might as well recommend arming every small business owner.

    The fact that the venue under consideration is the archetypal "school" is simply a function of the sensationalistic character of the Columbine tragedy.

    As a gun owner (I have six) I frankly don't have a great deal of trust in the capabilities of my sons' elementary school teachers to wield a weapon with any degree of accuracy. To the contrary I'd expect them to fuck up royally and hurt somebody.

    Accordingly I think it's a dumb idea, one that caters to sensationalism as opposed to common sense.

    •  Of course. (4+ / 0-)

      This is all very obvious. It is amazing that those who advocate for the widespread dissemination of guns onto campuses either don't see this or actively try to hide it. While a perfectly well-placed gun would come in handy during one of these rare attacks, the effect of hundreds of thousands of guns on campuses would more than offset the tiny (possible) positive.

      I'm in the I-fucking-love-this-guy wing of the Democratic Party!

      by doc2 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:15:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That says it all (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        doc2, wishingwell, CuriousBoston

        One could pull out anecdotes to defend ANY crazy idea.  It ignores the overall effect of this as a policy.  

        I too lived near Columbine when the attack happened, closer than the diarist, in fact, with my wife teaching in the local high school.  It rocked our community and we had meetings and talks about it too.  Most people, of course, talked about the kids and the culture and how this shit could happen in the first place, NOT about how to arm up.  And we were a mountain town with plenty of guns and hunters and such.  The idea that this is some mainstream idea gaining support across the nation is just silly.  It's childish wingnuttery.  

        An 'attack on the left' is the GOP in office destroying lives.

        by Sun dog on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:25:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  In COS.... (0+ / 0-)

          there was serious talk among the right wing extremists of requiring teachers to pack.

          Of course, with Focus and Doug Bruce, et. al., what do you expect.

          I now live in Texas and that rational discussion wouldn't occur in most places here.

          What town?  I still know people there.

          "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

          by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 08:13:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  foo (5+ / 0-)

        Can you tell us (with a link preferably) who is advocating dissemination of guns onto campuses? Who would provide the firearms? Who would disseminate them?

        The issue should be whether or not teachers can legally carry on campus if they can legally carry off campus.  I say yes (and the same for anyone who can legally carry off campus). I also say no to the idea of arming anyone other than military and police folk.  Everyone else should be free to choose as they see fit.

    •  Yes as actually when you look at the numbers (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dirk McQuigley, buddabelly, Dartagnan

      school shooting are very rare.  In fact, has there even been an incident in 2010?  I also think there are some cases where the teacher or administrators are catching kids with weapons before they can do harm. And the best thing is kids are now speaking up and reporting suspicious activity to teachers and principals.  As schools now have a confidential reporting system for kids. Kids now report what they observe and what they know more often as their identity is kept a secret and they do not get labeled a snitch.  

      My sister teaches in a suburban school that is highly diverse.  And she says the kids now think it is a cool thing to report incidents where they suspect a student could be a danger to others or to himself.

  •  Most common cause of dead female police officers? (8+ / 0-)

    Having their service weapon wrestled away from them by a miscreant and being shot with it.

    Schoolteachers armed in the classroom? As Tom Tolles would say, "What could possibly go wrong?"

    Highly trained police officers with depressing regularity kill and maim innocent bystanders, fellow officers, and hostages with their service weapons. Here's the thing gun nuts just don't comprehend: the mind-blowing adrenalin surge that comes with life & death situations. No matter how much training you have, when you're hanging on to a handgun trying to shoot another human being, the astronomical stress leaves you shaking like a leaf in a storm. You'll be lucky to get rounds within dozen feet of your nominal target. That's why you read repeatedly about suspects dying in a hail of police bullets- hit by something like 4 rounds out of 50 or 60 fired, with bullet holes in half the windows in the room and a wounded bystander across the street.

  •  Here is the key. (9+ / 0-)

    The day two enabled and deranged young people shot up Columbine high school...

    Being deranged as they were even without the guns they would have committed the crime nonetheless.  They might have built a bomb which could have been even more devastating.

    Don't believe what the politicians do, don't believe what they say, all they want to do is fuck you and get fat on their pay.

    by oldpunk on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:43:24 AM PDT

    •  They did. (4+ / 0-)

      They built two propane tank bombs and smuggled them into the cafeteria two days before the shooting.  When the bombs didn't detonate due to faulty timer design, they boys tried to shoot them to get them to explode.

      Oh, it was a first class cluster fuck in that school that day.....

      "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

      by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:52:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The principal at my son's primary school (8+ / 0-)

    was one of those historical competitors. They compete shooting a revolver, double barrel, and muzzle loader, and part of it involves horses I think.

    Bottom line he shot guns.

    He also stood outside the front door of the school and looked at every adult entering the building every day. He knew most kids by name and every parent by sight. Big guy.

    I felt good knowing he was the principal, I would have felt even better if I knew he was carrying.

    So yes, I'd like some sort of carry at schools, I'd probably feel better about it too if I knew that those carrying knew how to shoot.

    "slip now and you'll fall the rest of your life" Derek Hersey 1957-1993

    by ban nock on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 07:58:23 AM PDT

  •  You changed thoughts halfway through your diary (9+ / 0-)

    The original issue was, and I'll quote your quote for it, should teachers be ALLOWED to carry a firearm.

    "How do you feel about teachers carrying guns in school?"

    Later on in your diary you turned it into something else. You changed it to (near as I can tell) obligating teachers to carry a firearm.

    We will ask our school teachers to be armed like a park ranger, a policeman, even a private citizen.

    Please don't do that.  No one asked or expects everyone to be armed.  SHOULD and MUST are 2 different things.  SHOULD a teacher be allowed the option of carrying a firearm?  Yes.  MUST a teacher carry a firearm? No.

    Carrying isn't for everyone.  Some folks have an irrational fear of firearms and quite frankly I don't want those people carrying.  But other folks are quite capable of pointing it at something they seek to either destroy or stop and pushing the go button.  I can't see any reason why someone we already expect to behave in an adult and professional manner with our children can't be trusted to do the same with a concealed firearm.  Especially on the rare occasion where the shit hits the fan.

    And yes the same goes for janitors and cafeteria workers and admin staff and EVERYONE ELSE who is legally allowed to carry a firearm outside of school grounds.  In other words college students should also be allowed to carry if they so desire and have the legal right to do so.  It has not, does not, and will not produce random shooting events.  Based on all available info anyway.  It does produce a deterrent to those who think they will be able to do their evil un-impeded.

    I just got back from the car wash.  Pistol on my side, I bought my little code, drove through the car wash, paid 75 cents for the vacuum, and the vacuum didn't work.  Did I shoot anyone or anything? OF COURSE NOT!

  •  A for effort (9+ / 0-)

    c- for what you left out.

    1st your poll implied OPEN carry. No one advocates teachers openly carrying like the armed police around my neighbor hood schools. CONCEALED carry mean NOone is supposed to know

    Granted myth is more powerful than facts, but it's my understanding that some of the 1st responders at columbine were prevented from entering the school as the shooting was unfolding. What is fact is police secured the perimeter & treated each & every fleeing student as an active shooter. (Guilty until proven innocent). Entering from the opposite side of the shooting scene, SWAT 'cleared' rooms 1 x 1, they eventually (several hours later) made it to the cafeteria. Compare that to the 1st responders at Ft hood, who relied on those fleeing to direct them to the shooter where he was shot down ASAP. This is the whole crux of the matter.

    How much gun training would our taxpayers be willing to cough up to ensure that our teachers knew how to react and respond in a life-threatening situation where guns are present?

    Those who take the time & effort to obtain CC permit, commit less crime than the police.

    The country spends millions on police and military personnel to do just that.

    yet the average solder on base (FT hood) couldn't be trusted to carry, not even officers, still to this day, the ft hood recommendations are for more spying... preventative intelligence...

    What if the teacher in the playground had been packing heat?  Would she/he have drawn down on this guy and shot him dead?  Or would he/she missed, and hit the kid across the school yard, or the old lady across the street, or the mailman walking his beat?

    One of the very basic rules of firearms safety (training) is to be aware of your targets background. There are countless incidents in Israel where armed citizens stop determined shooters/terrorists from continuing their rampages.
    Bottom line, sitting ducks are not very safe.

    Who is Mighty? One who turns an enemy into a Friend!

    by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 10:11:47 AM PDT

  •  In these sorts of discussions, there often seems (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shadan7, oldpunk, dolfin66, Mandell

    to be a presumption that only one side of the argument is rational. On many issues, this isn't so obvious because most people here are on the same side, but on issues like guns, where there is a definite diversity of views here, it becomes more evident. Maybe if people could get past this presumption there could be a real discussion and people could learn from one another.

    •  This is especially true.... (0+ / 0-)

      on this subject.  I've written dozens of diaries on other subjects with nothing close to the responses from diaries on gun control.

      It's amazing how hot this topic is, but the discussion always comes down to those who fear everything and advocated carrying guns everywhere vs. those who have better things to do like not be afraid of every shadow.

      I think that speaks volumes about our society too.

      "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

      by dolfin66 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 at 01:10:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh please.. (5+ / 0-)

        My hypocrisy meter just hit the freaking peg...

        Look all day now a huge bunch of well reasoned arguments have been made, which you've managed to insult, twist, duck, misconstrue, and snide remark your way past the other poster. Apparently, you have no intention of any real discourse, but hope to pull your numbers up to something that gets on the rec list. Hope you do, I'm sure you badly need that validation for your self-centered world view.

        •  Actually,.... (0+ / 0-)

          not.  You obviously didn't read all of the comments I wrote, only the ones involving those who think like you.

          I haven't ducked any well-reasoned arguments.  You have.  You and your goober pals who insist that your brains are the only ones that matter.

          I don't give a crap about being rec'd.  I just answered a question with facts.  Try it some time.  Maybe your head will explode.

          "Have a beginner's mind at all times, for a beginner knows nothing and learns all while a sophisticate knows all and learns nothing." - Suzuki

          by dolfin66 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 06:43:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  It seems to me that you have been guilty (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shadan7, buddabelly, oldpunk, Mandell

        in the comments of some of what I am talking about. You're not the only one, for sure, and there are those on both sides who do this. I think you wrote a good diary, and it's important to discuss these things, but casting those who disagree with you as trapped in irrational fear, and those who agree with you as calm and rational, is simply an ad hominem form of argument. Don't address opinions by denigrating those who hold them.

      •  What it speaks the loudest about... (5+ / 0-)

        ...is how you base your arguments on empty assertions.

        ...always comes down to those who fear everything and advocated carrying guns everywhere...

        No one has advocated any such thing, and your reference to "fear" is, just as with most of your claims, completely without merit.

        In other words, you have no facts to back your assertions -- they are false and empty.

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