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Eric Holder's representation of Chiquita Banana and its use of right-wing death squads to murder labor organizers in Central America was bad enough.

The horror stories are well documented.

Also well documented is his total failure to prosecute torture and warrantless wiretapping, both clearly in violation of United States law, and punishable by up to and including the death penalty.

Now, however, Holder apparently feels some compelling need to make a total assclown out of the Department of Justice:

US will enforce marijuana laws despite how Californians may vote.

Holder promises to divert precious resources from prosecuting actual crime, including but not limited to corporate fraud, violence against abortion clinics and abortion providers, heavily armed right wing militias and garden variety violent criminals to make sure Californians won't enjoy a legal high.

This guy is better than Ashcroft, Gonzales and Mukasey because . . . . _______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
fill in the blanks with 25 words or less . . .

Originally posted to bobdevo on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 08:25 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (27+ / 5-)

    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

    by bobdevo on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 08:25:30 AM PDT

    •  Uprated b/c of bogus HRs. Plus, (8+ / 0-)

      Holder has been quite a disappointment. It's a repeated Obama administration theme.

      As a scientist, Throckmorton knew that if he ever were to break wind in the echo chamber, he would never hear the end of it. --Bulwer-Lytton Contest entry

      by Wom Bat on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:19:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Here's something from a diary about Prop 19 (5+ / 0-)

      I like to trot out. But briefly, my prediction is that it won't pass, not because Californian's won't vote in favor of it (I've done my own polling here over the past few weeks, and 80%+ are in favor of it), but because the corporate interests behind the proprietary source code in our voting machines will flip it. Conspiracy? If this proposition fails, it should be an eye-opener to anyone looking at the facts on the ground.

      The reason corporate interests and corporatists and globalists don't want it is because it will create an industry and float the economy, and give us some breathing room to focus on governance instead of trying to save our lives from going under.

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      Archaeologists agree that cannabis was among the first crops purposely cultivated by human beings over 6,000 years ago.

      For 3,000 years prior to 1842, cannabis extracts were the most widely-used medicines in the world. Its first known report as medicine is 2727 BCE, China.

      Hemp was already in the new world when the first European colonists arrived, thought to have been introduced by explorers, migrating birds, or possibly drifting shipwrecks.

      The Puritans at Jamestown grew hemp as part of their contract with the Virginia Company. Mandatory cultivation of hemp continued throughout the New World, the General Court in 1637 at Hartford Connecticut, and the Massachusetts courts in 1639, ordered families to plant one teaspoon of seed, "that we might in time have supply of linen cloth among ourselves."

      Colonies under the crown were banned from spinning and weaving hemp, as this fostered dependence to England. Exported fibers were then brought back as finished products from England. As the market was flooded with hemp, immigrant weavers from Ireland arrived in Massachusetts, passing their skills to the peasantry. What may have seemed a small movement grew into self-sufficiency from the British Crown to the extent of a boycott of English fabric products, and these were some of the conditions which lead into the War of Independence.

      Up until 1776 many colonies passed laws to encourage farmers to produce hemp, Virginia designed laws to compel farmers, fining those who did not comply. Some citizens were hired to promote and educate the public about the importance of hemp. Books were published that wanted to establish hemp as America’s trademark product. It was legal to pay taxes with hemp in America from 1631 until the early 1800s.

      George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were both promoters of hemp, and as noted in their farm diaries, spoke of their experiences as farmers of it. Throughout Washington’s diary he spoke about the quality of seeds, always taking care to sow them in the best areas on his farm. He documented the importance of cultivating seeds at the proper time, taking care to pull the male plants from the females.

      Jefferson believed hemp to be a superior crop to tobacco, which he said exhausted the soil, used too much manure, and provided no nourishment for cattle. Hemp on the other hand, "was of the first necessity to commerce and marine, in other words to the wealth and protection of the country."

      Jefferson, during his tenure as Governor of Virginia kept reserves of hemp, and in May of 1781 used hemp as currency when money from the government was in short supply. Around 1815 Jefferson received the first US patent for his hemp breaking machine, which reportedly did the work of ten men.

      Benjamin Franklin started one of America's first paper mills with cannabis. This allowed America to have a free colonial press without having to beg or justify the need for paper and books from England.

      In preparation for war, mandatory cultivation laws were passed, and colonist increased their production of hemp for paper and clothes. Colonists were convinced to take up arms, reading pamphlets published on hemp paper. Thomas Paine, who in 1776 encouraged colonist to fight for freedom with Common Sense, wrote, "in almost every article of defense we abound. Hemp flourishes even to rankness, so that we need not want cordage."

      Jefferson's first draft of the Declaration of Independence (June 28, 1776) was written on Dutch (hemp) paper, as was the second draft completed on July 2, 1776. This was the document actually agreed to on that day and announced and released on July 4, 1776. On July 19, 1776, Congress ordered the Declaration be copied and engrossed on parchment (a prepared animal skin) and this was the document actually signed by the delegates on August 2, 1776. Hemp paper lasted 50 to 100 times longer than most preparations of papyrus, and was a hundred times easier and cheaper to make.

      Betsy Ross sewed the first American flag from hemp fabric.

      Refusing to grow Hemp in America during the 17th and 18th Centuries was against the law. You could be jailed in Virginia for refusing to grow hemp from 1763 to 1769.

      Until the 1820s in America (and until the 20th Century in most of the rest of the world), 80% of all textiles and fabrics used for clothing, tents, bed sheets, and linens, rugs, drapes, quilts, towels, diapers, etc., were principally made from fibers of cannabis.

      The first crop grown in many states was hemp. 1850 was a peak year for Kentucky producing 40,000 tons. Abraham Lincoln’s wife, Mary Todd, came from the richest hemp-growing family in Kentucky.

      Abraham Lincoln was an avowed enemy of prohibition. His wife was prescribed cannabis for her nerves after his assassination. Virtually every president from the mid-19th Century up until prohibition routinely used cannabis medicines.

      In the 1890s the most popular American marriage guides recommended cannabis as an aphrodisiac of extraordinary powers, no one ever suggested prohibition laws against cannabis. And while there was talk of an alcohol prohibition, women's temperance organizations suggested "hashish" as a substitute for "demon" alcohol, which they said led to wife beating.

      World Fairs and International Expositions from the 1860s through the early 1900s featured popular Turkish Hashish smoking expositions and concessions. Hashish smoking was entirely new for Americans. However, smoking hashish was only about one-third as strong or long lasting as orally ingesting the cannabis extract medicines that even American children were regularly prescribed.

      For more than 1,000 years before the time of Christ, until 1883, cannabis hemp was our planet's largest agricultural crop and most important industry, involving thousands of products and enterprises; producing the majority of Earth's fiber, fabric, lighting oil, paper, incense and medicines. In addition, it was a primary source of essential food oil and protein for humans and animals.

      Until 1883, 75-90% of all paper in the world was made with cannabis hemp fiber including that for books, Bibles, maps, paper money, stocks and bonds, newspapers, etc. The Gutenberg Bible (in the 15th Century), Pantagruel and the Herb pantagruelion, Rabelais (16th Century), the King James Bible (17th Century), the works of Fitz Hugh Ludlow, Mark Twain, Victor Hugo, Alexander Dumas, Lewis Carroll's "Alice in Wonderland" (19th Century), and just about everything else was printed on hemp paper.

      In 1916, the U.S. Government predicted that by the 1940s all paper would come from hemp and that no more trees would need to be cut down for it. Government studies report that 1 acre of hemp equals 4.1 acres of trees. Plans were in the works to implement such programs.

      Henry Ford's first Model-T was built to run on hemp gasoline and the car itself was constructed from hemp. On his large estate, Ford was photographed among his hemp fields. The car, "grown from the soil," had hemp plastic panels whose impact strength was 10 times stronger than steel.

      Mechanical Engineering Magazine published an article in the 1930s, entitled "The Most Profitable and Desirable Crop that Can be Grown," stating that if hemp was cultivated using 20th Century technology, it would be the single largest agricultural crop in the U.S. and the rest of the world. Called the "Billion Dollar Crop," it was the first time a cash crop had a business potential to exceed a billion dollars. Innovations in farm machinery would have caused an industrial revolution when applied to hemp. This single resource could have created millions of new jobs, generating thousands of products. Hemp alone, if not made illegal, would have brought America out of the Great Depression.

      Cannabis extract medicines were produced by Eli Lilly, Parke-Davis, Tilden’s, Brothers Smith (Smith Brothers), Squibb and many other American and European companies and apothecaries. During all that time there was not one reported death from cannabis extract medicines, and virtually no abuse or mental disorders reported. Cannabis was America's number one analgesic for 60 years before the rediscovery of aspirin around 1900. From 1842 to 1900 cannabis made up half of all medicine sold, with virtually no fear of its high.

      The word "marijuana" is a term Mexican soldiers used for cannabis which became popular in the 1930's, during a series of media and government programs which we now refer to as the 'Reefer Madness Movement.'

      On October 2, 1937, the US Government passed the Marihuana Tax Act, which put a prohibitive tax on production of the "drug menace." Quality paints and varnishes were made from hemp seed oil until 1937. 58,000 tons of hemp seeds were used in America for paint products and in 1935, Sherman Williams Paint Co. testified before Congress against the 1937 Marijuana Tax Act.

      To grow cannabis legally, a citizen would need to purchase a special tax stamp. The government refused to release these tax stamps, thus ensuring that anyone who grew cannabis would be deemed a criminal. This was the beginning of marijuana prohibition.

      Despite the rampant propaganda against "marijuana," where newspapers and federal agencies condemned cannabis as "the world's most dangerous narcotic," the US Government then began issuing the tax stamps during World War II. Following the attack on Pearl Harbor, with imports of coarse fibers cut off by the Japanese, the US Department of Agriculture enacted a plan to ensure a steady supply of the world's strongest natural fiber by legally allowing Americans to grow cannabis. Marijuana, which had been outlawed as the "Assassin of Youth" just five years earlier, was then safe enough for our government to ask children of 4-H clubs to grow the nation's 1943 seed supply. Each youth was urged to grow at least half an acre, but preferably two acres of hemp for seed. The U.S. Government distributed 400,000 pounds of cannabis seeds to American farmers in 1942 to aid the war effort. Some 360,000 acres of marijuana was grown annually during World War II.

      For the next forty years, the US Government denied the existence of the film, "Hemp For Victory." In 1989, independent researchers discovered two copies of it in the Library of Congress. Yet to this day, the US Government refuses to admit cannabis has any use as a medicine or resource.

      YouTube copy of Hemp for Victory: http://www.youtube.com/...

      Current laws against the cultivation of cannabis can be attributed to three men, Henry J. Anslinger, Lammont DuPont, and William Randolph Hearst, who helped make growing hemp illegal. Anslinger was the head of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, DuPont the owner of the largest chemical company, and Hearst, owner of the largest newspaper. Hearst began printing stories with headlines such as "Marijuana goads user to blood lust" and "Hotel clerk identifies Marijuana smoker as gunman." He also took advantage of the country's prejudice against blacks and immigrants by printing that marijuana-crazed Negroes were raping white women, and by publishing cartoons of lazy, pot-smoking Mexicans. Congress banned hemp because it was said to be the most violence-causing drug known. Anslinger, head of the Drug Commission for 31 years, promoted the idea cannabis made users act extremely violent, then in the 1950s, under the Communist threat of McCarthyism, Anslinger said the exact opposite--marijuana was a danger because it will pacify soldiers into not wanting to fight.

      DuPont's banker Andrew Mellon, who happened to be Secretary of the Treasury under Herbert Hoover, had his nephew-in-law Anslinger draft the Marijuana Tax Law of 1937, allowing munitions maker DuPont to supply synthetic fibers for the domestic economy without competition. DuPont is still the largest producer of man-made fibers, while no citizen has legally harvested a single acre of textile grade hemp in over 60 years. The standard fiber of world history, America's traditional crop, could provide our textiles, paper (saving trees), and be the premier source for cellulose. Corporate entities such as DuPont, Allied Chemical, Monsanto, and others are protected from competition by marijuana laws. Over 30 industrialized democracies distinguish hemp from marijuana.

      The DEA's own conservative administrative law judge, Francis Young, after taking medical testimony for 15 days and reviewing hundreds of DEA/NIDA documents positioned against evidence introduced by marijuana reform activists, concluded in 1988 that "marijuana is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man." Yet today, pharmaceutical corporations sell high-priced medicines of dubious value, producing severe and sometimes fatal side-effects.

      •  would be very surprising if it doesn't pass (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        john de herrera

        Because 80% are for it as you say. But even if it passed, the sale of marijuana remains illegal under federal law, because of ass clown Holder. That complicates things. How does the state of California regulate and tax a substance that is federally illegal? Would they then have to go to the supreme court, the alito activist court?

        •  I will be shocked if it passes, (0+ / 0-)

          but then if so, it will be a great political ping-pong ball for the corporatists to use with words and commentary to blot out other issues, and/or in attempts to further set down the notion that those in Washington are the nation's would-be rulers. One way or the other, educate yourself and advocate for the Article V Convention I always say....

          This link is put up by Harvard Professor Lawrence Lessig:
          http://www.callaconvention.org

          This link is put up by former Michigan State Chief Justice Tom Brennan:
          http://www.conventionusa.org

          Convention USA is a virtual convention where if you sign up as delegate, it doesn't mean you have to get into the nuts and bolts of debate, it just means that for $10 a month you support the Constitution and the American founding principles.

          Friends of the Article V Convention is the leading national group:
          http://www.foavc.org

          This link is the database of state applications for the Article V Convention, all fifty have applied, and thus according to the rule of law, it's currently mandated: http://foavc.org/...

          These articles by Justices Van Sickle and Brennan provide an overview on the matter:

          http://www.foa5c.org/...

          http://www.foa5c.org/...

          http://www.foa5c.org/...

    •  Hide Rated, read teacherken's diary (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sarahnity, Samer, ericlewis0

      "Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?"

      Urges to or implications of action by someone viewed - not necessarily by you or me - as a respectable voice, can have serious consequences.  Thomas a Becket died because of such urging by a king.  Henry II's voice reached far fewer voices than are reached - unfortunately - by the likes of Beck, Limbaugh, and Norris.  Their rhetoric legitimizes - in the minds, unfortunately, of some - taking action in the supposed cause of patriotism.

      If we have any doubt of something like this, we need to remember the likes of an Eric Rudolph - Olympic Park and abortion clinic bombings;  the likes of James Kopp - assassinated abortion provider "doctor who provided abortions" rephrased at suggestion of Earicle) Bernard Slepian; Byron de la Beckwith - killer of Medgar Evers;  . . .

      Obnoxious diary title.

      I'll look at my navel after the midterms.

      by citizenx on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:28:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thank you for the diary title change (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bobdevo, jrooth, bobsc, DruidQueen

      hide changed to recommend.

      Thank you.

      I'll look at my navel after the midterms.

      by citizenx on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:43:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This guy is better than Ashcroft, Gonzales and (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Catte Nappe

      Mukasey because...

      He's not Ashcroft, Gonzales or Mukasey. He's not 'better', but he's not them.

      That's a mere 13 words! What do I win?

      Now, more than ever, we need the Jedi.

      by Joieau on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 10:03:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Okay, I'll give it a try. (7+ / 0-)

    This guy is better than Ashcroft, Gonzales and Mukasey because...

    ...he is not Ashcroft, Gonzales or Mukasey.

    Palin's 2012 Slogan: "Second Verse, Same As The First"
    Twitter
    My Blog

    by weatherdude on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 08:28:44 AM PDT

  •  // Sure wish he'd enforce torture laws (21+ / 0-)

    "Yet no one could doubt President Bush's support for our troops, or his love of country and commitment to our security." -Obama

    by heart of a quince on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 08:29:24 AM PDT

  •  Not the place or the time for this. nt (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    57andFemale, weatherdude

    Exspectamus et vigilamus: quod nolite somnamus.

    by tapu dali on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 08:32:43 AM PDT

  •  Why, the nerve of the federal DOJ to enforce (6+ / 0-)

    federal law.  

  •  hr'd for insinuating assassination in title (12+ / 0-)

    I ♥ President Barack Obama.

    by ericlewis0 on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 08:33:55 AM PDT

  •  Your diaries are the only thing worse than (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Samer, weatherdude

    your awful "Whip It" song.

    These are the demands and sayings of Lee!

    by Red Sox on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 08:37:01 AM PDT

  •  bobdevo, I agree with the (11+ / 0-)

    thrust of your diary, but you REALLY need to change the title. I'm not overly PC and very rarely need smelling salts, but the historical context of those words is inflammatory. I've NEVER HR'd a tip jar, but I will this one if you don't remove this allusion to the desire for assassination.

    "This site is CERTAINLY NOT for all Democrats." (Go on. HR the FAQ. You KNOW you want to.)

    by WisePiper on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 08:39:53 AM PDT

    •  I don't care for the title either, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NYFM, WisePiper, m00finsan

      but I can't imagine it's a call to violence of any kind.  After all, any replacement for Holder would be, well, someone just like him.  I doubt anyone is foolish enough to want to effect that kind of succession.

      •  I don't think bobdevo considered the historical (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo, ColoTim, ericlewis0, SilentBrook

        context (or was even aware of it.) I think the phrase struck him as a nice, catchy "hook."

        At a time, though, when we are excoriating the Right for their coded calls to violence, it's stupid of US to make ourselves vulnerable to a counter attack, however meritless.

        "This site is CERTAINLY NOT for all Democrats." (Go on. HR the FAQ. You KNOW you want to.)

        by WisePiper on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 08:52:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am fully aware of the history . . . but you see (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo

          if the utterer does not happen to be King of England, Count of Anjou, Count of Maine, Duke of Normandy, Duke of Aquitaine, Duke of Gascony, Count of Nantes and  Lord of Ireland it's pretty fucking unlikely any loitering barons will run off and harm Mr. Holder.

          "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

          by bobdevo on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:44:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So, I guess if I shouted "I should go (0+ / 0-)

            Lee Harvy Oswald on Obama", because I'm not actually LHO, it wouldn't really mean anything?

            Fail

            - It's beyond ironic that ophthalmologist Rand Paul is so myopic

            by second gen on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 10:47:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Look, bob, I LIKE the diary. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bobdevo

            I think Holder was one of Obama's worst picks. I'm infuriated that we don't have a strong AG investigating the rampant criminality of the Bush administration and the financial sector.

            But, I got to tell you, the biggest impediment I face in my GOTV efforts this election is the ignorant "Hey, both sides do it." Doesn't matter what the specific issue is, there is this false equivalency that both parties are just as corrupt, just as beholden to special interests, etc. And, when I try to educate regarding the danger of the far right militias and their talking head motivators, I'm invariably hit with the "Black Panthers" and Bill Ayers and the radical FSM. I DON'T want the next well meaning but clueless asshat to parrot Shaun Hannity's "news" report that someone on the Daily Kos is calling for Holder's assassination.

            Your title adds NOTHING to your diary. It's an unneeded and potentially counterproductive distraction.

            "This site is CERTAINLY NOT for all Democrats." (Go on. HR the FAQ. You KNOW you want to.)

            by WisePiper on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 11:17:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Just now saw the title change. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bobdevo

            Thank you. HR replaced with tip.

            "This site is CERTAINLY NOT for all Democrats." (Go on. HR the FAQ. You KNOW you want to.)

            by WisePiper on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 11:21:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I will remove mine too if the title changes... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      WisePiper

      otherwise, it stays.

      'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

      by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:20:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Okey-dokey - I changed the title. n/t (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo, WisePiper, Joieau

      "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

      by bobdevo on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:42:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Those who have read my... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    penguins4peace, corvo

    ...comments regarding marijuana legalization know that I do not stand with the majority of kossacks on this issue.  

    But, I can't HR this diary, because I agree with the diarist on this:  the DoJ should have gone after those who were/are involved in warrantless wiretapping and torture.

    That said, I don't at all believe that Eric Holder is an assclown.

  •  If I'm not mistaken (6+ / 0-)

    the AG was appointed by and serves at the pleasure of the POTUS. If you have a problem with the hireling, look to the man who chose him.

    Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.

    by drewfromct on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 08:41:55 AM PDT

  •  This guy Holder is better than.... (4+ / 0-)

    Ashcroft, because he's never been associated with a racist hate group (Council of Conservative Citizens), than Gonzales, because he has never once written a torture memo, and Mukasey because he didn't deliver a speech praising the Patriot Act.

    OK, so I went over the limit by a few words.

  •  uprated to counter HRs (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    penguins4peace

    and since I agree with the content of the diary, although, yeah, the reference in the title is obvious.

  •  Lose the title, please. (10+ / 0-)

    And I would say the same to you if you had written a diary about John Ashcroft and used the same title.

    What you're implying is beyond the pale.

  •  Change the title & I'll recommend (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sarahnity, ColoTim, DaNang65, ericlewis0

    this literary masterpiece.

    The title is sickening and goes beyond the pale.

    I'll look at my navel after the midterms.

    by citizenx on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 08:59:55 AM PDT

  •  I'm not totally sure why people think prosecuting (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    corvo, DaNang65, SilentBrook

    those who ordered torture was ever possible.  The problem is that these are continuing practices decades in the making.  There's no way they can all of a sudden say, we're holding you accountable, when they've never held anyone before accountable, in both parties.  And not when they know darn well that these practices are going to continue and that they believe they should.      

    The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism.

    by BigAlinWashSt on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:08:03 AM PDT

    •  I dont' either, and I ask. (0+ / 0-)

      I constantly ask for the statute making anything they say is illegal, illegal.

      when they've never held anyone before accountable

      Well, congress tends to not pass laws making the president a criminal for prosecuting its wars.  I don't blame Holder for that.

      Some feel more comfortable with the certainty that comes from losing power and letting republicans stab them in the front. It's a failure of nerve.

      by Inland on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:10:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Are you saying torture is not illegal and should (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo

        be part of the President's options when prosecuting a war?  
        I certainly wasn't saying that.  

        The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism.

        by BigAlinWashSt on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:15:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nobody's alleging that Bush tortured anybody. (0+ / 0-)

          They are saying he ordered it; and they aren't saying it's illegal, they are saying it's criminal.

          That means that someone's got to find a statute that says it's a crime when the president orders torture. No statute, no crime.  

          I think that before someone accuses Holder, they should go to their local library, find the US Code, turn to Title 18, and do some research.

          Some feel more comfortable with the certainty that comes from losing power and letting republicans stab them in the front. It's a failure of nerve.

          by Inland on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:33:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It is illegal BECAUSE it is a violation (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo, BigAlinWashSt

            of criminal law.  And it was illegal.  It was illegal for him to order it, it was illegal for the torturers to follow his order.

            I've read the statute, and anyone who thinks it wasn't torture is either an idiot or a willful tool, aka Bybee and Yoo.

            "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

            by bobdevo on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:48:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Got a cite for the statute? (0+ / 0-)

              Feel free.  

              Some feel more comfortable with the certainty that comes from losing power and letting republicans stab them in the front. It's a failure of nerve.

              by Inland on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:51:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 113C § 2340A (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                corvo, BigAlinWashSt

                and the punishment:

                Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.

                Army medical examiners determined 30-40 detainees died as a result of physical abuse, and said the cause of death was homicide.

                Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are liable for the death penalty

                "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                by bobdevo on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:54:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Fail. (0+ / 0-)

                  None of your defendants were outside the United States or had a person within their custody or physical control.

                  None of them tortured anybody.

                  Moreover, while I know that these people approved waterboarding, even you aren't claiming that they approved of whatever happened to the 30-40 detainees.

                  Well, whatever.  Bloggers like what blogger do.  They think proving a criminal case is as easy as hyperventilating on the internet.  They don't care what happens when someone shoots at a former president and misses.  It's all good fun when your at the keyboard.

                  Some feel more comfortable with the certainty that comes from losing power and letting republicans stab them in the front. It's a failure of nerve.

                  by Inland on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 10:07:00 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  even if the law said torture is legal (0+ / 0-)

                    It's still wrong.

                    •  Sure (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      a night owl

                      As someone said, the real scandal isn't that laws were broken, but what's legal.
                      But you can't prosecute for "wrong", and Holder shouldn't be treated like his got a slamdunk..  

                      Some feel more comfortable with the certainty that comes from losing power and letting republicans stab them in the front. It's a failure of nerve.

                      by Inland on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 11:10:14 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  How do you fucking know where it took place. (0+ / 0-)

                    Detainees were tortured at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib and other black sites.  You don't know what you're talking about. ANd in a conspiracy, if any of the acts took place out of the country, then all conspirators are equally guilty.,

                    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                    by bobdevo on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 11:20:00 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No. (0+ / 0-)

                      You're saying Rummy flew to a black site and tortured somebody.  Great.

                      if any of the acts took place out of the country, then all conspirators are equally guilty.,

                      Conspiracy's pretty broad, but fail.  You have to match the tortures with an agreement and affirmative step by your defendant.  

                      Some feel more comfortable with the certainty that comes from losing power and letting republicans stab them in the front. It's a failure of nerve.

                      by Inland on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 11:30:09 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  If he's part of a conspiracy . it doesn't matter (0+ / 0-)

                        where he is . . . as long as predicate acts took place out of the country.

                        "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

                        by bobdevo on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 12:42:49 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You name torture outside of the country (0+ / 0-)

                          but not any conspiracy for the torture.

                          I've already said you don't try to connect any of your defendants to the deaths you talk about.

                          You seem to think that if Bush agreed to waterboarding, and waterboarding is torture, then Bush agreed to all torture.  Doesn't work that way.

                          I won't bother you with all the other problems. You're not even out of the gate.  I don't see anyone even being indicted yet.

                          Some feel more comfortable with the certainty that comes from losing power and letting republicans stab them in the front. It's a failure of nerve.

                          by Inland on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 12:46:55 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

      •  TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 113C TORTURE (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo

        makes torture illegal.  It does not say it is legal when ordered by the president. In fact it makes the president laible for the same punishment for ordering torture, i.e, participating in a conspiracy:

        Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
        (
        (c) Conspiracy.— A person who conspires to commit an offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy.

        "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

        by bobdevo on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:52:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You forget Big Al . . . in 1983 Ronald Reagan's (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo, BigAlinWashSt

      Department of Justice prosecuted a sheriff in Texas and his deputies for waterboarding prisoners.

      The deputies got 5 years.  The sheriff got 10 years.

      "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

      by bobdevo on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:46:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •   (2+ / 0-)

    It's like we're all part of some avant-garde role playing story called "The Election" by Franz Kafka.

    by terrypinder on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:08:42 AM PDT

  •  Holder is typical of the Obama administration... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Aspe4, bobdevo, corvo

    ...he talks, but he won't do. Appearance over substance. Complicity with the bad side. We're stuck with all that. Just keep repeating, they're better than the Republicans.

    As a scientist, Throckmorton knew that if he ever were to break wind in the echo chamber, he would never hear the end of it. --Bulwer-Lytton Contest entry

    by Wom Bat on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:13:20 AM PDT

    •  Yeah, when will Mr. Obama do something? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      smartdemmg

      What President Obama has accomplished in 20 months is nothing short of astonishing.

      The notion that his administration is "appearance over substance" is risible.

      •  It sure is. For example, (0+ / 0-)

        the GOP, moribund in 1/09, supposedly is on the verge of retaking the HoR. I'm not saying that's all Obama's fault. But we'd have been better off if the president had turned out to be who he campaigned as. I'm still nearly unable to believe a Democratic Party president has set up Social Security for cuts via the catfood commission. Imagine if he'd campaigned on that. Or on making sure there would be no public health insurance program. See the link, esp page 2:

        http://www.nytimes.com/...

        Sorry. Hero worship & fandom can only stretch so far. Like yourself, I wanted to believe in the guy too. And for a while, I did. I'd still give my eyeteeth to have his IQ. But as president, Barack Obama has been a letdown.

        As a scientist, Throckmorton knew that if he ever were to break wind in the echo chamber, he would never hear the end of it. --Bulwer-Lytton Contest entry

        by Wom Bat on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 11:30:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You know what? I am a fan. (0+ / 0-)

          I'm not going to enumerate his administration's accomplishments (you can find those yourself), and it would be pointless for me to say that Obama has done a remarkable job of keeping his campaign promises.

          We'll just have to respectfully disagree.

  •  Ah, yes, assassination . . . indeed (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    corvo

    because, much as Henry II, King of England, Count of Anjou, Count of Maine, Duke of Normandy, Duke of Aquitaine, Duke of Gascony, Count of Nantes and Lord of Ireland, I am the undisputed suzerain and sovereign of all I survey, and I have but to murmur my wishes and my baronial lieges will take action.

    "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex" Dwight D. Eisenhower

    by bobdevo on Fri Oct 15, 2010 at 09:30:20 AM PDT

  •  Most of this thread is about the title. (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Aspe4, NYFM, bobdevo, corvo, DrTerwilliker, bobsc

    What a complete waste.  This is a very important subject.  I did not know the historical reference, so I read it as it was probably intended.  But this meta over a title is silly.  And that's the first and last time I ever intend to type the word meta.

    Anyway, diarist, either change the title or posters quit yakking about it.  Geez.

  •  Much better title. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bobdevo

    Now it merely sucks, but no longer is it implying your desire to see Eric Holder be assassinated.

    You should be proud.

  •  DOJ scores a 2-fer alienating 2 groups of (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bobdevo, EvilPaula, WisePiper

    Dem constituents the same week.
    Those advocating for repeal of DADT (yet again).
    And those who'd like to see some sanity brought to bear on the endless, ever-expanding and counter-productive 'war on drugs'.
    And not even 3 weeks until the election.
    Woo-hoo! Way to go Holder!
    You da man. If youre a Republican.

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