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Bush's promise after 9/11 was to attack any nation that harbored terrorists. And it wasn't an empty threat or a threatening promise. Just ask Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan if those were empty words. Anyone who wasn't living under a rock, especially the Yemen government who remembers the October 12, 2000 al-Qaeda bombing of the US Navy Destroyer, the USS Cole while it was anchored in Yemen's Port of Aden, should be thanking the terrorists that their bombs didn't go off causing another 9/11(Pearl Harbor) event, and that Barack Obama isn't George W. Bush.

But even President Obama admits that the packages constituted a "credible terrorist threat", which should be diplomatic code to Yemen that our current President's patience is not unlimited, and that they better hope that no more such packages with a Yemen return address, or if you prefer "Greeks bearing gifts"-that can be easily construed as an official act of war on their part, ever enter US airspace again...

Talking Points Memo reported today:

"President Obama, speaking this afternoon about the suspicious devices discovered on flights to the U.S., said the packages constituted a "credible terrorist threat" and that an "initial examination of those packages has determined that they do apparently contain explosive material."

Obama said that the packages, which were found last night on U.S.-bound flights in Dubai and near London, were addressed to "two places of Jewish worship in Chicago." He confirmed that the packages had originated in Yemen, and suggested that Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula might be responsible".

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem...

Today, I have no doubt that had Bush still been President, our combined B-52, B-1, and B-2 bomber fleets would've already left some secret undisclosed location here or overseas, and well on their way to turning Yemen, the former home of the Bin Ladens and which is now one of the largest al-Qaeda concentrations of terrorist training bases in the world, into yet another front line battleground in the global war on terror.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Yemen isn't like Iraq-no oil fields. It isn't like Afghanistan-no opium, no Eurasian overland oil corridor routes to the Causasus. Not like Pakistan-no nuclear missiles to fall into terrorist/rogue nation hands, but OBL is rumored/assumed to be still alive and well there.

Originally posted to ImpeachKingBushII on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 10:43 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (9+ / 0-)

    "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

    by ImpeachKingBushII on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 10:43:46 PM PDT

    •  Don't speak too soon (0+ / 0-)

      Haven't we already executed drone attacks in Yemen. Why wouldn't we send a message with our "assassination toys"?  It is too much work to investigate arrest and prosecute.

      "Senator McCain offered up the oldest Washington stunt in the book - you pass the buck to a commission to study the problem." - Senator Obama, 9-16-2008

      by justmy2 on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 07:27:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yemen would have been fine. (22+ / 0-)

    Norway, however, would have been screwed.

    Leave it to Republicans to set the house on fire and then rant that the fire department is socialist.

    by johnsonwax on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 10:49:10 PM PDT

  •  Aren't those types of decisions... (10+ / 0-)

    ...generally left up to the Defense Contractors and the Military Industrial Branch of the Federal Government?

    •  sure they are... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pluto, ruleoflaw, blueoasis, Miep

      ...the MIC controls all of our foreign policy decisions. I thought that was common knowledge. Unless this is a trick question. In that case I revert to my default answer: uh, can you repeat the question?

      "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

      by ImpeachKingBushII on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 10:54:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That sounds clever (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ImpeachKingBushII

        and cynical. Also sounds pretty correct. Why is this comment of yours so savvy and yet the meaning of your diary so obscure.
        You seem to accept this story as an exception to that MIC "common knowledge".

        It seems to me to be just another intelligence agency operation.  The "story" is more consistent with my brand of cynicism.

        The  MIC would drop bombs for profit, no? Aint gonna happen.

        Intelligence ops would create, shape, extend, confirm mental constructs. Happening as we .. key.

        •  "water seeks its own level"... (0+ / 0-)

          ...(to use a physical metaphor)most of the earth is underground and out of sight. The visible, known world is only a fraction of reality. Miniscule. Plans within plans. Armies within armies. A comedy of horrors. An enigma wrapped in a mystery, dressed in a tuxedo and steam-pressed into a duplicitous form. No, I almost never accept conventional wisdom as fatal inevitability. Unlike Aristotle, the world isn't either "ones or zeros" to me. Life isn't that simple. And neither is the definition of reality.

          "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

          by ImpeachKingBushII on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 10:06:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Yemen does not have the rich oil reserves (8+ / 0-)

    that it takes for Bush to do an Iraq style occupation.  Freedom by invasion is only for those with oil.

    If cats could blog, they wouldn't.

    by crystal eyes on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 10:53:52 PM PDT

  •  HR'd for obvious reasons. (0+ / 0-)

    It is a calling ... to do things about injustice.... It helps to have a goal. I've always tried to have one.--Edward M. Kennedy, True Compass

    by Timaeus on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 10:53:57 PM PDT

    •  Can you explain? (0+ / 0-)

      I'm confused as to why.

      Tell me what you eat, and I'll tell you what you are.

      by Musket Man on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 10:57:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's a claim, four days before the mid-term (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        annetteboardman, princess k

        election, that Obama is soft on terrorism.

        It is a calling ... to do things about injustice.... It helps to have a goal. I've always tried to have one.--Edward M. Kennedy, True Compass

        by Timaeus on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 10:59:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No. Obama is not "soft on terrorism." (7+ / 0-)

          Hell, he's taken a beating from the left because he put Al-Awlaki on the capture/kill list.

          This diary points out the difference between the reckless style of the previous president, and President Obama's calm, cool demeanor in the face of Islamic terrorism.

          Tell me what you eat, and I'll tell you what you are.

          by Musket Man on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:00:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  oh for Dog's sake (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          burrow owl, ImpeachKingBushII

          go ahead, feed right-wing memes. Have at it, Timaeus.

          I thought you were smart.

          "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

          by Miep on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:01:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh well, removing my HR after this. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            npb7768, Miep

            But I don't understand why you think this diary is on target, or that my objection to it is "right wing".

            I guess you're just so much smarter I can't understand what you say.

            It is a calling ... to do things about injustice.... It helps to have a goal. I've always tried to have one.--Edward M. Kennedy, True Compass

            by Timaeus on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:07:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Good. (3+ / 0-)

              Now, let's get down to the discussion.

              (a) "Thinking this diary isn't on target" is far from sufficient excuse to HR the tip jar.

              (b) The mere phrase "soft on terror" is right wing.

              (c) My impression of you overall, to the extent that I've read your writing here over the last few years, is that you are comparable to me with regards to intellect. Thus, I was rather shocked to see you behave thusly here.

              "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

              by Miep on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:09:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, I'm not going to persevere in this. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                annetteboardman

                But I'll humor you for a moment.

                (a) Remarkable how you twist my words here. Walk back through the posts. It's just a few sentences. Obviously I didn't say that the diary deserves an HR for not being "on target."  I think it deserves an HR for promoting toxic anti-Obama, and hence pro-Republican, ideas right in the face of an election.

                (b) You have this completely reversed in your understanding! It's quite remarkable. I myself claimed that the diary accuses President Obama of being soft on terrorism, and indeed it does! In other words, I'm showing that the DIARY is using right-wing ideas, as I said. But here you say that it is I who has a right-wing slang for using that term. FAIL!

                (c) "Last few years?"  You're UID 233619.  I'm 4598.  Obviously that doesn't mean I'm better in any way. But it does suggest that I have more years here, since you bring up the issue of years.

                Comparable in intellect?  Really?  Whatever you want to believe.  It's just the Internet.

                But I suggest you misunderstand what's going on with my comments here--this diary really is off-target and anti-Democratic.

                It is a calling ... to do things about injustice.... It helps to have a goal. I've always tried to have one.--Edward M. Kennedy, True Compass

                by Timaeus on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:23:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  pathetic (3+ / 0-)

                  It's always pathetic when people start dragging up their user ID#'s, as if the entire Internets began and will end with Daily Kos.

                  Comparable in intellect? Well, you can choose not to accept my compliment.

                  Sorry, dude; but the whole idea that teh Terror is some kind of serious problem that just evolved all by itself, is a huge right wing meme.

                  I thought better of you than this, Timaeus.

                  I'm quite willing to end this conversation.

                  "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

                  by Miep on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:30:03 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  pathetic indeed (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    npb7768

                    No, let me be the one to end this "conversation."

                    Of course it's not a conversation, just you jumping in with some insulting shit.

                    And stop the "I thought better of you than this" crap. I have no idea who you are. That means nothing to anybody. It's just a cheap rhetorical flourish.

                    You completely duck my objections (a) and (b) from my previous post (to which you're now "responding").

                    You lose.  Fail.

                    And since we both don't wish to continue the "conversation," don't give me any more shit, okay?

                    It is a calling ... to do things about injustice.... It helps to have a goal. I've always tried to have one.--Edward M. Kennedy, True Compass

                    by Timaeus on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:33:58 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  no, I actually remember you (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      burrow owl, ImpeachKingBushII

                      perhaps from when I was blogging here as mieprowan.

                      I've seen you here, around, here and there.

                      I never had any problems with you in the past.

                      it's you who's not remembering, Timaeus.

                      "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

                      by Miep on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:49:33 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  This Diary is Pretty Dumb... (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    raboof, businessdem, annetteboardman

                    I don't agree with Timaeus on his initially wanting to downrate the diary, but I agree with him on the idea that this is a dumb diary, especially 4 days before an election.   Part of my problem with the diary is that it's not funny.

                    And the title is similar to these:

                    "Illegal immigrants are very lucky that Tom Tancredo isn't the US President today"...

                    "Mexican drug lords are very lucky that Sarah Palin isn't the US President today"...

                    "Tax-and-spend liberals are very lucky Grover Norquist isn't the US President today"...

                    "Don't look back... something might be gaining on you..." -Satchel Paige.

                    by npb7768 on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:53:43 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well, I Don't Have A Problem With (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      burrow owl

                      Any of that, as you are of course entitled always to have your own opinion, at least in Miep-land.

                      It was the HR that got me started. I wish no war with Timaeus, either.

                      "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

                      by Miep on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 12:44:18 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Timaeus you're killing me here... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  burrow owl, Youffraita

                  ...I don't think I'm going to ever engage you again even if I'm here another ten years. I've never met anybody anywhere or anybody here this dense. I know it's Friday night and everybody's working for the weekend, but damn! There's always a first for everything. Now please d0nut me for that. Please do it. It was worth every drop of glaze. At least, I'll have some inkling wtf you are talking about.

                  "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

                  by ImpeachKingBushII on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 12:13:28 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I agree with you Timaeus (0+ / 0-)

                  The diary says that Obama is more "patient" with terrorism than Bush was. The diarist uses loaded phrases like "even Obama admits that..."

                  It's hilarious that then your efforts to point this out are then themselves labeled as right-wing..

                  I note downthread that the diarist is claiming the diary to have been intended as praise for Obama and criticism of Bush..

                  Taking a quick look at the diary itself:

                  Today, I have no doubt that had Bush still been President, our combined B-52, B-1, and B-2 bomber fleets would've already left some secret undisclosed location here or overseas, and well on their way to turning Yemen, the former home of the Bin Ladens and which is now one of the largest al-Qaeda concentrations of terrorist training bases in the world, into yet another front line battleground in the global war on terror.

                  I can't really see how this can be interpreted as criticism of Bush's approach. If the diarist does not think that attacking Yemen is a good idea, then can I suggest a rephrasing of this above passage?

                  Today, I have no doubt that had Bush still been President, our combined B-52, B-1, and B-2 bomber fleets would've already left some secret undisclosed location here or overseas, and well on their way to turning Yemen into yet another clusterfucked bloody madhouse, as we all wait 3 years for the reports to come out that actually there was no reason to attack Yemen at all, and for wikileaks to inform us how the civilian death toll is thousands higher than officially reported, and how this unilateral attack on a sovereign nation has once again made us more despised internationally and made the world a more dangerous place not just for our armed forces but for all Americans.

                  How about that? Since the diarist's claimed intent was to criticize the Bush doctrine, that perhaps gets this point across more clearly..

                  •  "I'll have what businessdem is having"... (0+ / 0-)

                    ...yes it does and yes you put it better than I did last night. I just can't get Shock Doctrine out of my head for some ungodly reason. The hits just keep coming. Like a cascading, relentless monsoon that soaks one to the bone. I'm deliberately vague sometimes and like to let the reader draw their own conclusions. I love diverse viewpoints and hashing out the needles from the haystacks. It brings me a brief respite from the insanity that surrounds me. I've spent my whole life running back to the womb in search of the truth's bitter gall of "peaceful quiescence".

                    A 17 year old young man named Benjemin Searle wrote these words:

                    "I am alone.

                    It is very dark here.

                    I feel so cold.

                    I can smell the stench of sulfur.

                    No. It is not sulfur that burns...

                    It is flesh.

                    There is a treason here, I feel it.

                    Can you not taste blood?

                    Yes, my friend... The moon is bleeding tonight.

                    The star has fallen.

                    We are all dead men.

                    There is a treason here...

                    I feel it."

                    There's many forms of treason. War is treason waged against peace. Hate is treason against love. Lies are treason against truth.

                    I never meant to reveal deep thoughts. This was supposed to be a slam dunk, remember? That's what Rummy told Bush. Famous "last throes":
                    "We are seeing the last words of the insurgency". And to think they not only fooled the world and us twice, they laughed us all to scorn and cried all the way to the bank, with all those missing Iraq billions! Prove it didn't happen. Negatives aren't impossible to prove, but dead men tell no tales. Just ask Joe Stalin.

                    "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

                    by ImpeachKingBushII on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 10:37:39 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Uprated because I haven't a clue (5+ / 0-)

      what you're talking about.

      "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

      by Miep on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 10:57:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  oooo kaaay.... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      burrow owl, Miep

      ...would it be too imposing on you as to inquire a d0nut for what oh high and mighty Timaeus? Or Am I secretly HOS now or something? What gives?

      "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

      by ImpeachKingBushII on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 10:58:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, you're not HOS in my book or anybody (0+ / 0-)

        else's as far as I know.

        But I think this diary is hideworthy for calling President Obama soft on terrorism.

        I actually think the problem is in the opposite direction: I think he is way the hell too much of a war-bringer and civilian-killer.

        It is a calling ... to do things about injustice.... It helps to have a goal. I've always tried to have one.--Edward M. Kennedy, True Compass

        by Timaeus on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:02:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  trust me timaeus... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kalmoth, Youffraita, Miep

          ...I wrote this diary. I previewed it for you myself. Nowhere did I imply or convey they Obama was soft on anything. Hey, but you do as you see fit, pal. I think you were wrong and just a tad fast on the draw.

          "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

          by ImpeachKingBushII on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:08:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Perhaps the only thing missing (2+ / 0-)

            is a snark tag?  I think I understand where the diarist is coming from- Shrub's tendency to shoot first, second and last before asking questions or even looking (see Cheney and and a particular shotgun incident).  Not saying that BO is soft, just that he uses that thing between his ears before the jets go out.

            •  I read it and had the same reaction (0+ / 0-)

              as Timaeus. But I do think it is snark.  Just not clearly identified as that.

              •  cynical, satirical, snarkalishish, dead serious.. (0+ / 0-)

                ...hyperbole, fatalistic, barbaric, civilized, a stumbling block and a rock of offense. Literary license: writing in such a way that is open to the reader's interpretation, allowing just enough wiggle room for them to exit gracefully and for the writer too! Not below or above anybody's skill level to understand, just muddy enough to cause one to think on their own and flavored with a small dash of contentious repartee. "No spoon feeding allowed"!

                "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

                by ImpeachKingBushII on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 10:54:52 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  That's not even remotely hide-rate worthy... (4+ / 0-)

          it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

          by Addison on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:11:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Honestly, I think you're seeing something that .. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ImpeachKingBushII

          ..... isn't there.  

          While I don't agree with the diarist's premise, he is not calling Obama "soft on terrorism".  

          The only thing that will save the sorry asses of the Democrats is the Republicans.

          by ThAnswr on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 01:42:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Iraq never harbored terrorists. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Timaeus, cai
  •  No - wrong. Bush would bomb (6+ / 0-)

    Iran - because obviously terror is coming from Iran, not Yemen :)

  •  Doesn't Halliburton Have A Full Plate Already? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, ImpeachKingBushII

    Just sayin' you know...

  •  They may be unluckier that Obama is president. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Youffraita, cai

    Just 'coz the man is a Democrat does not mean he will turn the other cheek. See: Harry Truman

    "I have ferrets with fins" - African Cichlids. And (3 - nope....) 2 pooties too! Ren (crossed the Rainbow Bridge 10/19/10), Stimpy (16 yrs) and Rocky (4 yrs)

    by mrsgoo on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:02:25 PM PDT

  •  Anybody see Democracy Now today? (6+ / 0-)

    Jeremy Cahill had a great report. He was in Afghanistan (unimbedded) and had a lot of very interesting things to say about what is going on there.  His basic point was what little difference there is in defense policy between the Bush and Obama administrations.  Just thought it needed mentioning.  

    Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed frequently ... and for the same reason

    by Road Dog on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:02:56 PM PDT

  •  did y'all (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ImpeachKingBushII, cai

    see the earlier diary on this?

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

    by Miep on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:03:15 PM PDT

  •  We are already involved in this war (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    protectspice

    and funding one side against the other. US drones are also targeting al qaeda there. What are you saying exactly? We are already heavily involved.

    •  I'm saying that if Bush were potus instead... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Miep

      ...we would already be in another real hot shooting war in Yemen. That is all. It's really all I'm saying. Really. No hidden secret message. Just that. Obama is slower on the draw. Actually thinks things through with his brain, not the other head.

      "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

      by ImpeachKingBushII on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:13:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No we wouldn't be. (0+ / 0-)

        Special forces have been there since at least 2002 - Bush wisely sent them -- and despite flashes of terroristic threats from Yemen since Bush never intimated or made moves toward an invasion or conventional war in Yemen. Your premise was tested repeatedly from 2002-2008, and disproved.

        it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

        by Addison on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:18:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  this is one time I'm glad I'm wrong... (0+ / 0-)

          ...all war is not healthy for children, moms, dads, sons, daughters and other living things. And all wars not fought in self-defense, but for "rape, pillage and plunder", empire, oil, or territory are unjust wars, imo. But it's so hard to say any nation stands for peace, when their whole existance is defined by the wars they fight. How much they spend on wmds themselves. Speech over.

          "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

          by ImpeachKingBushII on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:27:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  No, Shrub would invade Venezula. (2+ / 0-)
  •  Just a reminder when touting how strong a (4+ / 0-)

    response the Bush admin would have had to the threat today.
    His administration is the only administration that did not keep America safe. If I remember correctly he was the President on 9/11 wasn't he?    Now that is a great Democratic talking point!

    Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed frequently ... and for the same reason

    by Road Dog on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:10:50 PM PDT

  •  You are making erroneous assumptions (7+ / 0-)
    1. That Bush attacked countries for coherent reasons.
    1. That Obama has been reluctant to use military force.
    1. That Bush cared whether or not a nation had attacked us.

    Other than that, your premise makes perfect sense.

    Harry Reid: Float like Barney Fife, sting like Aunt Bea.

    by MeMeMeMeMe on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:13:29 PM PDT

  •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

    I think a lot of the high-level defense and intelligence leadership, right and left, generally learned their lesson about fighting convention wars against terrorism in Iraq. It's more about drones and SFs and whatnot these days, which is better all around.

    If Yemen is the new base for a group that is seeking to kill Americans, and their government is complicit at some level, well, we shouldn't just sit around and let them mail-bomb our Synagogues. Something should happen (happily we're already there in some form or another).

    it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

    by Addison on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:15:53 PM PDT

    •  better all around (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      2020adam

      if you don't happen to be on the receiving end of the drone.

      So, what; you think that we should declare war on yet ANOTHER country?

      I hope the international community bankrupts this country as quickly as possible. We're a blight upon the earth.

      "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

      by Miep on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:20:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't plan on going to Yemen... (0+ / 0-)

        ...and involving myself in terrorism, so my chances of being on the receiving end of a drone strike are very low. That said, there's the risk of innocent people dying in those things, so I would prefer more special forces activity if possible.

        Where did you get the idea we should declare war on Yemen? We don't have to. But the threat of war does allow us to operate within the country.

        You think the US is the only country supporting targeted strikes in Yemen against AQAP? AQAP is actively trying to attack Germany, France, and the UK. If we weren't there the Europeans would be there themselves or begging us to go.

        The USA makes massive errors from time to time in its military policy. But, in many instances, we're also performing a service for the world that rarely gets acknowledged because we're providing a service to people whose politicians are too afraid to do it themselves (and therefore won't thank us publicly for it).

        it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

        by Addison on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:27:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (4+ / 0-)

          The USA makes massive errors from time to time in its military policy. But, in many instances, we're also performing a service for the world that rarely gets acknowledged because we're providing a service to people whose politicians are too afraid to do it themselves (and therefore won't thank us publicly for it).

          I look forward to your essay on the subject of how grateful people in other countries appreciate how our military invades and destroys their hospitals, museums, infrastructure, and humans.

          "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

          by Miep on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:33:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I wasn't saying we provided a service... (0+ / 0-)

            ...for the country we invade and/or target, was I?

            it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

            by Addison on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:37:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You sure as hell implied it. (0+ / 0-)

              "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

              by Miep on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:50:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, that's observably untrue... (0+ / 0-)

                ...I mentioned the European nations quite clearly.

                AQAP is actively trying to attack Germany, France, and the UK. If we weren't there the Europeans would be there themselves or begging us to go.

                The context makes it abundantly clear I was referencing those nations when talking about the service the United States' military provides. Don't make things up.

                That said, even though I didn't touch on it in the previous comment, we're also providing the same service to the leadership of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, the Egyptians, other moderate Islamic regimes with angry citizens, etc.

                it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

                by Addison on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 12:06:07 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Do you have any idea (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  annetteboardman

                  how strange all of that sounds? All that business of the USA providing military assistance to all of those countries with "angry citizens?"

                  Should citizens not be allowed to be angry?

                  Wow.

                  "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

                  by Miep on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 12:46:45 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You just don't like fact untained with bias... (0+ / 0-)

                    ...that's all this is. You demand that any facts come along with a sermon. Well, that's dumb.

                    German, French, and British citizens are in general against military intervention. Their leadership is, for various reasons, more incline to view military intervention as a necessity. American provides a service to those leaders. The citizens have every right to feel however they want, they're likely keeping their troops out of wars or military actions. No one said they couldn't be angry.

                    Again, you follow the increasingly common trait among Kossacks of imagining things hidden within any neutral statements that don't come with the orthodox "progressive" line attached. I know from experience that pointing out this stuff -- as I did above -- doesn't ever change the aggrieved person's behavior (they almost always just want to be outraged about something), but at least for observers it's nice to point out.

                    it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

                    by Addison on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 12:56:57 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  A service of death (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      annetteboardman

                      In which neutral comments does death hide, Addison?

                      "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

                      by Miep on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 01:17:53 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Oh Jesus, out comes the purple prose... (0+ / 0-)

                        ...look, if someone says, "we are at war in Afghanistan" that's just a fact and not itself a judgment on the usefulness or that war. Get over your need to have ideology stamped on every fact before you'll process it -- facts come first, ideology later.

                        it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

                        by Addison on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 01:26:43 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Death comes first (0+ / 0-)

                          excuses later.

                          Really, you should just stop talking to me; I'm getting kind of embarrassed at how you are feeding me my lines.

                          I kind of prefer it to be more challenging.

                          "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

                          by Miep on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 01:44:05 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  It seems so easy for you since... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...all you're looking for are dull bombastic lines, you're not actually paying attention to what I'm saying -- or the fact that nothing I've said constitutes a defense of or attack on anything -- you're just coming with all these empty rejoinders. Is there anything I've said that isn't true? You're just imposing some judgment on imperialism and its corresponding violence on my comments and then attacking that; in the end you're still fighting your self-generated phantoms.

                            Again. It's as if I said simply, "there's a war in Afghanistan," and you decided to get outraged and blather on and on about how I am advocating the death of civilians.

                            it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

                            by Addison on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 02:05:32 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Time For You To Watch (0+ / 0-)

                            A Republican Ad

                            I'm sure it will calm you down some.

                            "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

                            by Miep on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 02:20:31 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What is your problem... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...you misunderstood something in my original comment (who was getting the service) and ever since then you've been having this bizarre conversation with yourself. A Republican ad? What is the point of this nonsense? It's people like you, who refuse to engage or reply to what people actually said and just go off on these tangents, who make this an awful place to be.

                            it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

                            by Addison on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 02:25:46 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Go To Bed (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ImpeachKingBushII

                            Let it go.

                            This was just a discussion. I do not judge you, or anyone else here.

                            I just write. As do we all.

                            Sometimes we connect, sometimes we don't.

                            The mission statement of this site is not about our ripping each other's throats out.

                            "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

                            by Miep on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 02:29:55 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Why would I go to bed? (0+ / 0-)

                            It's late afternoon here.

                            Oh, so after all that nonsense you're going to act like you're above it all. Whatever.

                            it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

                            by Addison on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 02:32:32 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  okay, let me put it this way (0+ / 0-)

              When the US military invades countries theoretically in order to free the people from their dictators, and several years later said countries are in much worse condition than the were when we invaded...well, need I finish?

              "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

              by Miep on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:52:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I'm sure Al Qaeda will make a strong distinction (0+ / 0-)

          in their now-even-more-effective propaganda videos, between War and cluster munitions that sit on the ground waiting for women and children.

          •  Please quote what this is in reaction to... (0+ / 0-)

            it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

            by Addison on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 02:19:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  But, in many instances, we're also performing a (0+ / 0-)

              service for the world that rarely gets acknowledged...

              I'm just saying it's not much of a 'service' if, effectively, all we do is eliminate easily-replaceable leaders. Why are they so easily replaceable? Because as long as we keep killing civilians from the sky, their family members will continue to join the ranks of our enemies. Killing them using cluster munitions - which, essentially by design, murder innocent civilians - is simply that much more counter productive.

              So I'm saying that folks aren't thanking us because it's our policy of killing civilians with flying robots and cluster bombs that causes terrorism to continue.

              You're more than welcome to make the distinction that we are allowed to kill those civilians, because someone somewhere in their country is trying to do us harm. I just don't think their family members will pay much heed to that distinction before taking up arms against the brave warriors who killed their wife and maimed their child from an air conditioned office complex 7,000 miles away. (Should I mention that said warriors are illegal combatants, given that they belong to no recognized uniform military service? No, probably not, given that we're about to convict a tortured child soldier for that crime.)

            •  More specifically, I was reacting to this: (0+ / 0-)

              Where did you get the idea we should declare war on Yemen? We don't have to. But the threat of war does allow us to operate within the country.

              Since "operating" in Yemen really means having our government kill people in their country - usually including quite a few innocent civilians - Al Qaeda wouldn't really be impressed by the distinction.

              They will continue to have an easier and easier time making the case that there is a brand new front in the global jihad. And young Muslims who thought maybe the US was considering pull back from Afghanistan and Iraq will simply see that we are bombing a new Muslim country with weapons guaranteed to kill children.

    •  Or if Yemen is not? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ImpeachKingBushII, 2020adam

      If Yemen is the new base for a group that is seeking to kill Americans, and their government is complicit at some level, well, we shouldn't just sit around..

      In what moral or mental space does one write a sentence like that?
      "A group that is seeking to kill Americans" does indeed sound like a group inviting destruction and wrath on its head.

      It assumes however that Americans are not of the world. It assumes Americans are inviolable solely on the basis of being American.

      The American crew of a helicopter landed at My Lai and raised their weapons and were prepared to shoot Americans engaged in a massacre. The thoroughly exhausted and war-deranged company might well have responded with fire.  Which of these Americans belonged to a group seeking to kill Americans?

      Addison..if you are a Democrat.. you are the kind that occupies the the center of the Venn diagram where Democratic and Republican imperialists overlap.

      Do you give any thought to America's geo-political behavior and its conduct?  
      It is preferred to ascribe irrational, inherent and moustache twirling evil motives to resistance to invasion by American armed forces.  And "terrorist" methods are surely to be condemned.. much like torture.

      "Seeking to kill Americans" is such a banal complaint.  Consider Gettysburg, Sing-Sing,Tulsa, Matanzas, the Philippines, Little Big Horn, nearly at My Lai.

      There are so many contexts where "seeking to kill Americans" can be discussed rationally. Context. History.

      Why would any middle-easterner want to do such a nasty thing?  Do you ever ask that?

      And having said all that... what confidence should you or I have in this "late breaking news story"?

  •  Rap News vs New World Order (3+ / 0-)

    "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

    by Miep on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:18:56 PM PDT

    •  Dog, but that's funny (0+ / 0-)

      Don't forget to read the news feed at the bottom!

      "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

      by Miep on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 12:11:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  One wonders why the title wasn't (0+ / 0-)

    "Yeman is Very Lucky Obama Is the President Today"

  •  Disproportionate Response (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    annetteboardman, 2020adam

    they better hope that no more such packages with a Yemen return address, or if you prefer "Greeks bearing gifts"-that can be easily construed as an official act of war on their part, ever enter US airspace again...

    So we attack the entire country because a person or people sent explosives from that country?

    So...say some crazy American right winger, let's say some Rapture-Ready Freak, successfully starts sending explosives to China.

    Would China be justified in attacking our Nation, or be obligated to hunt for the sender of the package?

    This is what chump Change looks like.

    by Wamsutta on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:32:25 PM PDT

    •  asdf2 (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sky Net, janl1776

      I am very confused about the diary and these responses -- we're not going to invade Yemen. In 2002 Bush sent some special forces to Yemen. This was smart! And over the next 8 years, despite many threats emanating from Yemen (mostly from AQAP), we never came close to "attacking the entire country." It has been limited strikes -- using a combo of intelligence, special forces, and drones -- under Bush and Obama. It will remain that way.

      it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

      by Addison on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:36:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes because drone attacks (0+ / 0-)

        help out cause much morentham arresting people, gathering intelligence, and demonstrating the power of the American justice system.

        "Senator McCain offered up the oldest Washington stunt in the book - you pass the buck to a commission to study the problem." - Senator Obama, 9-16-2008

        by justmy2 on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 07:38:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  no saying that at all wamsutta... (0+ / 0-)

      ...it was "a shot across the bow", or my lame attaempt to put them on notice that somebody here noticed their notice and that I personally didn't appreciate their idea of a sick joke. Yemen has a long history of un-answered violence against us, and unless they're a totally out of control failed state, they have a hard time convincing anyone that all those al-Qaeda training camps aren't "invited guests". And they also have a lot of dealings with the North Koreans, another one of our "close pals". (sarcasm)

      "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

      by ImpeachKingBushII on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:50:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  they they they they they they they. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        truong son traveler

        how many more innocent civilians are we gonna murder by flying robot til we finish off this they?

        anyone else think it's a little insane to be threatening another muslim country?

        yea, I'm sure the leaders of AQ would just hate if we start more war in more muslim countries.

      •  The problem is (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        justmy2, 2020adam

        you are conflating "Yemen" with a small group of really crazy people.  This is a big problem for me (and I am pretty sure for the people in Yemen, although I would not remotely claim to speak for them).  Do you not see an issue with the terminology here?

  •  I thot we got out of the way why we're (4+ / 0-)

    in Yemen with the Underwear Bomber.  What ever happened to him?
    Largest Al Qaeda training base?  I can't believe what's happening anymore.  Ten years later and people still believe in the war on terror.  Mind boggling.    

    The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism.

    by BigAlinWashSt on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:34:51 PM PDT

    •  We've been in Yemen since 2002. (0+ / 0-)

      Al-Qaeda's been there for longer.

      it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

      by Addison on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:43:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Alot to add since I wrote this, but (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ImpeachKingBushII

        imperialists have been there a very long time.  

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism.

        by BigAlinWashSt on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:45:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  asdf3 (0+ / 0-)

          And before that the imperialists of the Ethiopians, Persians, the Caliphate, and Ottomans, etc.

          it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

          by Addison on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:47:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Ecclesiastes 1:9-14 (0+ / 0-)

          it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

          by Addison on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:49:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And it's never been about Al Qaeda until (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Miep

            US/NATO imperialists made it that way.  Al Qaeda is a CIA creation.  

            The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism.

            by BigAlinWashSt on Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 11:51:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Bleh... (0+ / 0-)

              ...Al-Qaeda is just a name for this incarnation of disaffected, usually unmarried, oppressed males with anger problems. US/NATO didn't create that. Look at the vast history of insurgencies. It's practically a law of physics that large powerful nations will exert their will where they can, and that young men who are out of work and susceptible to the easy answers extremism provides will seek violent solutions.

              Blaming the US/NATO for nurturing Al Qaeda in the 80's and 90's may be technically correct, but overall I think it's missing the larger point: An imbalance of money creates an imbalance of power. An imbalance of power creates poverty and resentment. Poverty and resentment combine to create insurgency as a way to neutralize the power gap; it doesn't usually work out well for anybody.

              it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

              by Addison on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 12:02:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You seem to support imperialism yet lament it's (3+ / 0-)

                impacts.  

                The Global War on Terror is a fabrication to justify imperialism.

                by BigAlinWashSt on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 12:11:39 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Power imbalances happen... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...and if one power chooses not to do it, another will. Supporting or fighting against hasn't made much of a dent in terms of "imperialism," it continues and it will continue. To use an analogy of sorts, I guess I'm in favor of regulated imperialism.

                  it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

                  by Addison on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 12:47:53 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Dead people happen (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    justmy2, BigAlinWashSt

                    It's just so tedious when we have to trip over them in the streets.

                    "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

                    by Miep on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 01:21:52 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Realistic assessments of bad stuff aren't bad. (0+ / 0-)

                      You continue your string of bizarre interpretations done, I'm guessing, merely so that you have some focus for your venting. Realistic assessments of bad stuff aren't themselves bad.

                      it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

                      by Addison on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 01:25:17 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Please, please (3+ / 0-)

                        work on your nouns.

                        Yours:

                        string, interpretations, venting, assessments, stuff.

                        Mine:

                        people, streets, etc.

                        We can work on this.

                        I could add:

                        guns, tanks, explosions, body parts, viscera, corpses, blood, bombs.

                        Okay. Your turn. Mind you, just nouns. Play fair.

                        "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

                        by Miep on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 01:42:18 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  feel like I've been standing on the floor... (0+ / 0-)

                          ...watching the ticker at the NYSE at closing bell, watching two brokers pull each other's ears off fighting over the last million shares of the world's last oil futures. Call it the "Addison-Miep 100 years War". No, really, you two made my whole week. I loved it all! ("Timaeus the Hun" not so much, lol!)

                          "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

                          by ImpeachKingBushII on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 11:23:02 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

              •  well, yeah (0+ / 0-)

                So what do you suggest to fix all of that?

                "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

                by Miep on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 01:22:50 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  and a very convenient one (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BigAlinWashSt

              "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

              by Miep on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 01:23:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Addison -- just curiosity (0+ / 0-)

            I don't usually see this type of response here.  I see the citation (not quotation) of bible verses on discussions on my local tv station's comments page.  But not on Dkos.  What do you expect the audience to do with this?  Do you expect me (or whoever reads it) to know immediately to what you are referring?  Or do you expect me (or whoever reads it) to go and look it up?  I am not criticizing -- this has just taken me aback, and I wanted to ask.  Thanks.

  •  This is snark, right? (3+ / 0-)

    Amnesty International, June 7, 2010:

    Amnesty International has released images of a US-manufactured cruise missile that carried cluster munitions, apparently taken following an attack on an alleged al-Qa’ida training camp in Yemen that killed 41 local residents, including 14 women and 21 children.

    VOA News, July 30, 2010

    The Convention on Cluster Munitions goes into force Sunday, August 1, with 107 signatories agreeing to ban the use of cluster munitions . . . . Cluster bombs are damaging because they contain hundreds of smaller explosives, or submunitions, that detonate across a wide area. The submunitions that fail to explode on impact can then act as landmines, posing a threat to civilian populations long after a conflict is over.

    both via glennzilla.

    Since when were innocent victims of cluster munitions considered lucky?

  •  It seems to me... (0+ / 0-)

    Your statement:

    But even President Obama admits that the packages constituted a "credible terrorist threat...

    is part of the controversy here. What's with the "even"?

    •  it was a rhetorical marker... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Miep

      ...it was meant to pre-empt(pre-debunk)a potential repub charge that the whole thing was a trumped-up left wing media story to keep repubs away from the polls four days before the election they think they are supposed to win in a walk. If the repubs lose on Tuesday, the repubs would have a very hard time convincing the public that President Obama was so desperate to win on Tuesday that he would go so far as to make up a story so incredulous and personally co-sign for it, just to hedge his bet that we win. The problem is, it has a better chance of keeping our Dem voters home, too, which shows just how ridiculous and baseless a charge it would be. Hence, "even President Obama admits". His word still carries a lot of clout.

      "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

      by ImpeachKingBushII on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 12:57:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We've been bombing Yemen (and killing civilians) (5+ / 0-)

    for a while now.

    I guess whether the plane firing the missile is piloted remotely or not makes a really big difference to some people - although....generally not the people the missile is aimed at.

    Capitalism already ate itself. Now it's just shitting itself.

    by JesseCW on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 12:41:57 AM PDT

    •  The drone strikes have killed civilians... (0+ / 0-)

      ...because of their very nature, but are you in favor of increased on-the-ground special forces and intelligence units that would provide a more targeted response to terrorist cells?

      it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

      by Addison on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 01:05:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes. (0+ / 0-)

        With support of Yemeni gov after investigations are exhausted if a corroborated threat to the us is determined.

        "Senator McCain offered up the oldest Washington stunt in the book - you pass the buck to a commission to study the problem." - Senator Obama, 9-16-2008

        by justmy2 on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 07:42:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I am not in favor (0+ / 0-)

        of the use of the Death Squads we euphamistically call "Special Forces".

        I'm in favor of treating criminals as criminals, not using their crimes as an execuse to abandon both international law and basic human decency.

        Capitalism already ate itself. Now it's just shitting itself.

        by JesseCW on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 05:38:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Terror Schmerror. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ImpeachKingBushII, WiseFerret, Miep

    No oil? No opium? No valuable resources to be stolen? I doubt that the Bush team would have been interested. That’s probably why they didn’t even try to get Bin Laden, because he was/is in Yemen.
    What irritates me about this "terror" shit is that they are not seriously enforcing VISA laws (i.e. the way the 911 hijackers were able to stay in the country long enough to pull off 911, or so the story goes), or the human traffic through our borders and other points of entry, but they’re happy as hell to violate the rights of American citizens (warrantless surveillance etc.). As long as they continue to slack on what it would really take to "fight terror" (as if they were really interested in "fighting terror"), I’m just going to blow off these suspicious packages and these foiled "terror attacks" that seem to happen at politically convenient times and keep asking why they aren’t watching who comes into the country and why do they want to fuck with the rights of US citizens.

    •  We have beenin Yemen since 2002 (0+ / 0-)

      This is all so dumb. For years Democrats have advocated using more limited, "smart" military actions against known Al-Qaeda strongholds, the kind that have been underway in Yemen since 2002. Dems should know about it, if that's the strategy they would advocate. But then, when they want to lash out, they spout off this stuff:

      No oil? No opium? No valuable resources to be stolen? I doubt that the Bush team would have been interested. That’s probably why they didn’t even try to get Bin Laden, because he was/is in Yemen.

      ...gah. We've been there. Bush WAS interested. Obama IS interested. Oil, opium, resources, blah blah blah. We're doing what we need to in Yemen, and what the vast majority of Democrats advocate and continue to advocate for AfPak.

      it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

      by Addison on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 01:03:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  sort of knocks the wind out of the sails of... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mike Taylor

      ...a Bush favorite: "They hate us for our freedom,", doesn't it?

      "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

      by ImpeachKingBushII on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 01:04:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you read jihadist rhetoric... (0+ / 0-)

        ...you'll see that this line, though bizarre sounding to us, is true. They do hate us for our freedom (there are other basic factors as well, of course). What our "freedom" represents is a key component of their major rallying points; the increasingly global reach and nature of US-style economic freedom and the shifting societal freedoms and cultural freedoms that stem from it is no small thing -- you'd have to be a pretty insular American to think that it's not a jarring element in these countries and a major factor in terrorism.

        it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

        by Addison on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 01:09:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  even if I agreed with you... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          truong son traveler, Miep

          ...I'd never give OBL the satisfaction of knowing it. That's the same argument he used to "justify" attacking us on 9/11. I'm really a non-violent, peace-loving man, but I'd be lying if I didn't say that deep in my soul I'd enjoy giving him a little "pre-trial interrogation" of my own, in the form of what my Army sergeants used to say to motivate us recruits to a greater sense of military situational awareness: "knuckle drill one".

          "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

          by ImpeachKingBushII on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 01:17:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly... (0+ / 0-)

            ...it's the argument he used and they all use and it's what they actually fear. So I'm all for pushing them on that -- let's go after what they're afraid of and boost options for economic, social, and cultural freedoms that the people in that region obviously pine for. If the people don't want it, they won't take advantage of it, and whatever. But more of them do want it, of course.

            I'm not saying we somehow deserved it for attempting to allow people to vote or girls to go to school or people to buy TVs or get middle-class "bourgeois" jobs or whatever; I'm just saying that is in fact what they fear.

            it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

            by Addison on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 01:23:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  it goes a little deeper than fear... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Miep

              ...more like hating the things you hate so much you lose what we called in the tank corps: your "healthy fear". Hating us enough to murder us, but not fearing death enough not to get their wish. I might have a little more sympathetic tone towards listening to their pov on economic justice, if they hadn't murdered 3,000 innocent Americans. Just because they could. Or was it for their God? Or jealousy? Or just unmitigated hatred? At this point, all I know is the only language they seem to understand is spoken out of the business end of Abrams tank. Meaning it's a little too late to negotiate with the terrorist when he thinks by dying killing an "infidel" he gets extra credit points with God and a free ticket to heaven. How do you talk to a man eaten alive with such hatred? How do you deal with the generations that follow him, when white hot blind hatred for America, and how to fire and field strip an AK-47, build a roadside IED, or fire an RPG is all they're taught from birth?

              "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

              by ImpeachKingBushII on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 01:56:15 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Wouldn't it be a victory for terrorist if (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ImpeachKingBushII

          the US government has to violate the freedoms (i.e. constitutional rights) of US citizens (warrantless surveillance without oversight etc.) because of their terror tactics? This administration has tried to defend the Bush domestic surveillance program in federal court.
          What’s the problem with oversight? Does the executive branch believe that members of a FISA court can’t be trusted? That they might be terrorist sympathizers? The executive branch (of both Bush and Obama) is basically claiming that whoever would be overseeing them can’t be trusted. It looks like if the terrorists really hate us because of our freedoms, they would be getting a charge out of seeing the US executive branch having to make such ridiculous claims in order to violate the constitutional rights (freedoms) of US citizens, as a response to their terror tactics. How could this not be considered a victory for terrorists, (since they hate us because of our freedoms)?

          •  Huh? (0+ / 0-)

            Please quote what in my comment you're replying to. I have no idea. It's like you accidentally are writing a response to someone else's comment about oversight to my comment about the terrorists' motivations.

            it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

            by Addison on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 02:30:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Your response to IKB2's "They hate us for our (0+ / 0-)

              freedom," comment.

              •  Quote the part. (0+ / 0-)

                it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

                by Addison on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 02:42:36 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  "If you read jihadist rhetoric... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...you'll see that this line, though bizarre sounding to us, is true. They do hate us for our freedom (there are other basic factors as well, of course). What our "freedom" represents is a key component of their major rallying points; the increasingly global reach and nature of US-style economic freedom and the shifting societal freedoms and cultural freedoms that stem from it is no small thing -- you'd have to be a pretty insular American to think that it's not a jarring element in these countries and a major factor in terrorism."
                  I take from this that the spread of US-style freedom would be considered a threat to them, and if they (terrorists) could infringe on the freedom of US citizens, (through the US government’s response to their terrorists tactics, warrantless surveillance etc.), that would be considered a victory for them and an incentive for them to initiate more terrorists attacks, which would likely cause more US government infringement on the rights (freedoms) of US citizens.

    •  Good Point (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ImpeachKingBushII, Mike Taylor

      "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

      by Miep on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 01:20:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The timing of the Yemen toner cartridges (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    justmy2, truong son traveler, Miep

    ...and their destination... are so oddly coincidental to the election cycle and so unconnected to any particular foreign policy protest as to suggest that various intelligence services "do shit" when they care to.  They never get called on it.
     It looks to me like nostalgia for the good old days when election week required a loud "BOO !!" and then let the credibility problems quietly disappear due to ennui in the days ahead.

    This is when all the media, perhaps even Stewart and Colbert, have a one week statute of limitations on being jerked around by cooked up non-sequitors.

  •  There really are some militant, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    truong son traveler, Miep

    extreme, violent, "jihadi" inspired haters.  The hatred of imperialist, foreign, interventionist, non-Islamic entities was a red hot rage. American policy, much like Soviet policy has refined red hot rage to white hot.

    There are also global, strategic, energy resource, hegemonic and self-interested players from the intelligence agencies of the Saudis, Pakistanis, Americans, Israelis, Syrians, Egyptians, Turks, Iranians .. to say nothing of the deep background interests of the Russians, Chinese, and multi-national energy companies.

    When shitty terror event stories like this occur it's nice to rush to the keyboard and pontificate as if the AP story you read was in some sense the "truth."

    It's odd that in a country that makes, airs and distributes films like "Syriana".. where insiders are trying hard to tell you ... "IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK".. it's not what they tell you.. it's not good guys and bad guys... we praise the savvy film and script and then ignore its message as thoroughly as if it were never made.  

    I celebrate that America is the kind of country where a film like Syriana can be made and viewed.
    Much like I celebrate America's vast system of advanced education.
    In both cases ... it's apparently all for naught.  

    I do not claim to know what is going on in this "western - Islamicist" confrontation. I read and digest and read more and ponder.
    When you write your entries here in this diary ..about this issue.. are you sure?

    The CIA tried to force JFK's hand on Cuba. We know some of the stratagies they discussed. Black ops, psy-ops, false flags.  

    What arrived on what plane? From where? Placed where by whom?  

    There are real items in the US budget, and other countries as well for "disinformation", opinion shaping and intelligence operations.

    Election week 2010.  Yemeni toner cartridges were the story de jour...perhaps de semaine .  You will soon forget this outrage.

    Frankly I don't know who to believe? Do you?

  •  In the same week that "W" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    truong son traveler, Miep

    let's out that he "thought" that the United flight over Pennsylvannia had been shot down... in a world where suddenly jet fighters of the United States Air Force suddenly regained the ability to find an airliner.. in a world where Democrats at this site defend Dick Cheney's view of the historical record...

    I say you get the historical issues and debates about "Osama bin Laden" you deserve.

    You never asked, enquired, researched or convinced.
    Kean and Hamilton will gladly admit that they started with the answer. The evidence was then arranged to fit the answer.

    Maybe Osama did it exactly like they said. Maybe he did for the reasons they said. (Actually, they wouldn't much talk about that.)
    But that's no way to hold an enquiry.

    There are Islamic terrorists. I get that.

    The degree to which they are directed, and more worrisomely, impersonated by various intelligence agencies needing easy cover is something the sophisticated observer needs to consider.

    Claim to be the Popular People's National Liberation Front for the Palestinian Nation and once you could put a bomb anywhere. We were predisposed to the narrative.  But then the world began to find some sympathy for the Palestinian diaspora.

    Nowadays.. claim to be A Q..?  Your nastiest or quirkiest deed fills a need in the narrative. Seriously... if you were the nastiest operative in the Swedish or Norwegian covert black ops crew.. whose fingerprints would you leave on your aqavit bottle?

    America never investigated 9/11. It "reported back" on what government agencies provided. The commissioners said so.

    It going to be hard to go into the future trying to understand the "Middle East", the "Arab problem" the "Islamic problem" without an evidence based, non-partisan, scientific, and forensic investigation of the events of 9/11.  If the first premise of relating to ???? what?? the Afghans?  Osama personally?.. the Taliban.. Wahhabism... getting re-acquainted with the A Q that worked for the USA.. " A Q in Iraq???"  
    If the first premise is deeply flawed.. assume things are going to get more thoroughly irrational, counter-productive and psychologically driven.

     

    •  Well, yeah. (0+ / 0-)

      Thanks for taking the time to write all of that up.

      "Unlike every other nation in the world, the United States defines itself as a hypothesis and continues itself as an argument." - Lewis Lapham

      by Miep on Sat Oct 30, 2010 at 03:36:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  coincidence? (0+ / 0-)

    Isn't it interesting that this just happened to take place right before the upcoming elections, so the public will be even more afraid and more likely to vote Republican?

    And isn't it interesting that the houses of worship that were supposedly targeted are in Chicago, the home turf of our current president, who is hated by the Republicans?

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