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There’s been a lot of talk about the FDA’s proposed pictorial warnings on cigarette packs, including some whining by people who say they go too far. Actually, our proposed pictorial warnings are tame compared to the warnings in other countries. Many other nations, including places like Mauritius, Latvia, Djibouti and about a dozen of other countries, are way ahead of us when it comes to explicit pictorial warnings on cigarette packs.

So I ask you: Is public health for Americans less important than it is for the folks in Mauritius? Reading letters to the editor and the blogosphere, you’d think so. People lambasted "nannyism" or claimed that the pictorial warnings are dumb because they won’t work.

But they do work, and there’s a lot of research to show it, including a study from the American Journal of Preventive Medicine that compared Canada’s graphic pictorial warnings with the United States’ feeble text warnings.  The study found that Canadian smokers were more likely than U.S. smokers to think about health risks and consider quitting.

   

"Health warnings on U.S. packages, which were last updated in 1984, were associated with the least effectiveness," the study reported.

It’s not just pictorial warnings where the United States trails other nations in tobacco prevention. For example, our country has no national smokefree policies. Other countries show far more concern about the public health of their citizens than we do. And that’s strange, since we consider our country so scientifically and medically advanced. Yet we allow cigarettes to kill 440,000 Americans each year without putting up much of a fight.

Heck, Namibia just passed one of the most comprehensive smoking bans in the world. Kazakhstan has tougher anti-smoking laws than a dozen U.S. states. Uruguay, Ireland, Guatemala, UK, New Zealand, Colombia and Turkey have comprehensive smokefree laws covering all types of places and institutions, according to the Tobacco Atlas. That’s equivalent to or better than some of the toughest smokefree laws in select American cities and states.

People making fun of  or grousing about the new pictorial warnings on U.S. cigarette packs either don’t know or don’t care that such warnings are becoming the international standard, and that the United States is lagging behind many other countries, including some poor countries, when it comes to tobacco prevention. With tobacco slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people each year in this country, wouldn’t it behoove us to catch up to the rest of the world?

Originally posted to jgogek on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 06:49 PM PST.

Also republished by gussians.

Poll

Should the US join other countries in using graphic pictorial warnings on cigarette packs?

40%35 votes
59%52 votes

| 87 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

    •  please (13+ / 0-)

      so your big mac should come in a carton showing a diseased heart too?

      How about that coffee and donut having what an excess 10 to 50 lbs of fat really looks like.

      The child has grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb.

      by dark daze on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:35:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Perhaps (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pozzo

        but I don't think anyone suggests never eating a big mac or never having a donut. We need to eat and as long as we're sensible why not. No one needs to smoke, however, and it's truly an evil thing. People have the right to do it but society has a responsibility to warn them

        •  No one needs big macs or donuts. (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PatriciaVa, Cofcos, kyril, mdmslle, erush1345

          Not even "just one".

          •  They have nutritional value at least (0+ / 0-)

            You DO need calories to live and those provide those. They are better ways to get them, but these foods do have value in that the body can process them. There's nothing in a cigarette that your body needs.

            •  You could make that argument for Vodka (0+ / 0-)

              but I doubt you would.

              •  True but (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Vacationland

                at least there's a substantial body of scientific evidence to suggest moderate use of alcohol has beneficial effects. I am unaware of any beneficial health effects of moderate smoking.

                •  There aren't any benefits of moderate smoking (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Pozzo, JesseCW

                  At least for most people.

                  Nicotine does have a positive/mitigating effect on the brain chemistry of people with Schizophrenia, however. It's one of the reasons why the vast majority of them (somewhere in the neighborhood of 85%) smoke, usually heavily: self-medication.

                  •  It also can help folks with OCD and (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Vacationland

                    can mitigate depression.

                    Of course, the side effects aren't exactly minimal, even from the "safer" forms of delivery like patches and lozenges.

                    •  Depression's a tricky one. (0+ / 0-)

                      Nicotine helps depression in some folks; triggers it in others. Depends on the person. You're right about the side effects. Mental Health facilities, hospitals, and substance abuse treatment facilities are increasingly smoke-free, and there has been a sharp uptick in their provision of nicotine replacement therapy to residents or consumers. They recognize that the nicotine itself can have a significant impact on the individual's mental state and that weaning them off of nicotine may or may not be desirable based on other factors.

          •  True but... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Pozzo

            there's nothing wrong with having a donut or Big Mac as part of a balanced diet. You're not going to get addicted to Big Macs and I'm pretty sure any damage done by a bad diet is reversible, if you give up smoking I don't think you're lungs ever repair themselves

            •  Actually, yeah, there is. (0+ / 0-)

              Spiking your blood sugar with a donut raises the odds of Diabetes in much the way a single cig raises the odds of Lung Cancer.

              Sure, on probably won't do it, and 10 a year raises the odds a lot less than 10,000.

              But the odds still go up.

              And in a very real sense, some folks do get addicted to eating fat and sugar laden foods.  Eating those things gives some people a huge dopamine release.

              If you quit smoking (it's not giving up anything, it's all upside), your odds of lung cancer fall by half every 15 years you survive after quiting.

            •  I think lung damage is reversible (0+ / 0-)

              to a certain extent if you quit. OF course, if you've got cancer, that isn't going to simlpy reverse itself.

        •  How often before it becomes an annoying (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kyril

          reason to defy the 'Know betters'. Well aware of the dangers and choosing to continue is a choice that is based on many factors. I smoked 20 years longer then I would have because of all the I need to feel smarter then you' crowd who kept telling me it was harmful... Geesh I din't know I used to think at 40 when they told me.  

          In fact, if I didn't value the savings in my pocket I would be smoking right now.

          AS for Big Macs and donuts .. WTF... people are always telling people that they shouldn't eat stuff. It is always fun to tell others what you damn well know that they are aware of because it makes you feel better... the heck with them.

          •  So, you harmed your health (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Pozzo, Vacationland

            for an extra 20 years because of non-smokers?  Odd, but....

            I think you need to understand that we're talking about public health officials here.  They aren't telling you about health effects because they're assholes.  They're telling you about health effects because that's their job.  If you went to your doctor and told him you were smoking, and he didn't say anything to you about the health effects of smoking, then he wouldn't be doing his job.

      •  Or a diseased liver from Scotch? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        high uintas, kyril, erush1345

        Why is it that Dems support such regressive taxes on products that are mostly consumed by the working poor?

        What's the total on cigarettes?

        What's the total tax burden on scotch?  

        Dems often lament so many poor whites voting against their interest by supporting the Republican party.

        Well, should a blue-collar African-American smoker continue voting for a Party that steeply taxes his vice?

        Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. http://www1.hamiltonproject.org/es/hamilton/hamilton_hp.htm

        by PatriciaVa on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 08:05:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  fucking puritan. (9+ / 0-)

      Next it'll be graphic warnings on porn, showing STD-infested genitals rotting away like maggot-infested beef, right?

      You and the righties with the fetus films they show to women who seek abortions.  What bipartisanship!

      Sanctimony triggers dopamine release.  The same buzz you get from smoking.   I'd say you ought to smoke instead: at least you'd only be hurting yourself rather than imposing the consequences of your dopamine buzz on others.  

  •  What most irritates me about the anti-smoking (9+ / 0-)

    crowd, is that they lump cigars and pipes in with cigarettes.  This type of tobacco is not nearly as addictive, and is not usually inhaled, yet much legislation makes it harder and harder to find a place to smoke indoors.  

    •  They also have much less additives (6+ / 0-)

      The tobacco doesn't bother me, but I'm allergic to the chemicals in cigarettes, and they make me nauseous.  I actually like the smell of cigars.

      Conservatives: They love America. They hate actual Americans.

      by catwho on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 06:55:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Say what? (5+ / 0-)

      Tobacco is tobacco, dude. That's like saying smoking heroin isn't as addictive as shooting heroin. The addictive ingredient -- nicotine -- is present in cigarette tobacco, cigar tobacco, pipe tobacco and chewing tobacco. All tobacco use is bad for your health.

      •  And you know this how? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek, commonmass, Siri

        I've been smoking cigars for 5 years, and can easily go 2 months without one, and I DON"T inhale, so lung cancer is unlikely.

      •  bullshit. (8+ / 0-)

        The health impacts of cigar and pipe smoking are miniscule.  The only study that separated out pipe-only and cigar-only smokers from cigarette smokers (Surgeon General 1964) found that cigar smokers live as long as nonsmokers and pipe smokers live slightly but not significantly longer than nonsmokers.  

        Alcohol is implicated in half of all murders, suicides, and automobile fatalities, and alcoholism is the #2 destroyer of families after adultery.      

        So, are you in favor of bringing back prohibition of alcohol too?  It might work this time, with all the wonderful surveillance and piss-testing we didn't have the last time.  

        Don't give me any bullshit about you only drink a glass of wine or a bottle of beer now and then.  According to your logic, alcohol is alcohol, and if you drink at all, you're an addict.

        •  To be fair, when adjusted for income (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pozzo, G2geek, kyril, boophus

          and education, pipe and cigar smokers don't live quite as long as their non-smoker peers.

          But we're talking about a difference that barely registered as statistically significant....and we all get to make our own choice.

          The moderate pipe smoker who exercises regularly vs. the complete non-smoking couch potato...ect.

        •  Who is proposing tobacco prohibition? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pozzo, OHdog

          Ah, the great straw man, tobacco prohibition.  It somehow always makes it into these arguments, or were you bringing up alcohol prohibition as a bad analogy?  As for alcohol regulation, I think you'll find that alcohol is a pretty regulated industry.  Get your Four Loko while it lasts.  

          •  prohibition in everything but name. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kyril, erush1345

            Remember, pot prohibition started with the "Marihuana (sic) Tax Act" of 1937.  

            All it was, was a tax.  Of $300 per ounce.  Today that would merely be about a 75% tax, which is less than the tax on tobacco.

            Now in many places it's illegal to smoke inside your own home on the grounds that in multi-family units, the neighbors might smell it.  

            Well your Muslim neighbor and your Jewish neighbor might also smell your pork chops cooking, your Hindu neighbor might smell your steak on the grill, and with all this shared air going around, your HIV+ neighbor is in danger of dropping dead from your flu germs!

            If your neighbors can smell you, they can catch what you've got, and home smoking bans aren't going to make that issue go away.  

            But home smoking bans sure do stink to high heaven of prohibition.

      •  Then explain why.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kyril

        ...on average, pipe smokers live longer than nonsmokers do.

    •  pipe smoker here. (7+ / 0-)

      One of life's great pleasures, right up there with chocolate, with one added benefit:  All the oral gratification and none of the calories.

      What's up with the anti-smoking zealots is simply this: they are puritans who get a pleasurable buzz out of righteously beating their chests and beating up on sinners.  All the rationalizations in the world don't change that one bit.  

      •  Pipe smoke isn't so bad (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pozzo, G2geek
        - the quality of the tobacco is much higher, and they don't add any chemicals to it.  It's the chemicals that make me quite literally ill, and why I'm a fierce advocate against public smoking.  

        Tobacco in its pure form is yummy.  I like walking into humidors in tobacco shops with my husband (who indulges in a cigar once a year) and just enjoying the scent - in those cases, I can see why it was prized by Native Americans and treated with reverence.

        So not all us "anti-smoker zealots" are unreasonable.

        Conservatives: They love America. They hate actual Americans.

        by catwho on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 08:13:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I can't smoke one.... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek, kyril

        ...on a smoke break.  Takes too long.  I also don't like having to lug around 4-5 pipes for a day's smoking.  I do actually prefer it tho.

        •  there is that. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Corwin Weber, kyril

          The tiny bits of time available for breaks of whatever kind, in most jobs.

          Most of the time I telecommute, so I'm at my desk, with a choice of pipes (Petersons, Savinellis, etc.) and tobaccos (G.L.Pease (many) and a DIY blend (Cavendish + VIrginia)) at my fingertips.  

          When I'm going field to client sites, I'll toss a tin of the DIY blend in my backpack, plus a couple of "field pipes" that are "safe" to carry around (easily replaceable).  I can smoke in the truck en route if I feel like it (my truck), but typically if I'm on a site for a day I'll have "my head in the machine" (PBX) and I'm not thinking about eating or smoking or even going to the bathroom, until the work is done.  

          Thing is, if you bring along a couple of pipes for lunchtime, you might have an opportunity to evangelize & recruit.  IMHO evangelizing is perfectly OK, even with nonsmokers.

          •  I've considered one thing..... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            G2geek, kyril

            ...it's expensive enough that I haven't tried it yet.  Ever try a Falcon?

            •  nope, but.... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Corwin Weber

              They're not my style personally, I prefer oldschool briar.  Though I occasionally run across comments online from people who like Falcons a lot.  I'd suggest doing an Ebay search since you never know when one is going to turn up, and if it needs a bit of maintenance & restoration the price will be lower.  

              I would guess they'd be fairly easy to restore, since all the metal parts could be soaked in distilled spirits overnight and then worked over with some combination of a toothbrush dedicated to the purpose, and lots of pipe cleaners.  The removable briar bowl and the mouthpiece would have to be reconditioned using more traditional methods: trimming the carbon cake in the bowl, and using pipe cleaners dipped in distilled spirits to run through the mouthpiece.  

              The thing about any of these pipe designs that aims to deal with condensation is, trapped moisture has to be removed one way or another, whether with a pipe cleaner or with a piece of tissue paper.  That makes them less convenient outside the home, than the conventional briar with no special design features.  

              The best way to deal with condensation IMHO is by a) choosing blends that don't use humidifying agents, and b) keeping one's pipes at a warm temperature e.g. by placing them in a slightly warmer part of a room (though never in direct sunlight or close to a heater), since this will prevent the condensing effect of warm smoke in contact with a cold surface inside a pipe.  Low ambient humidity is also better for pipe smoking than high ambient humidity (this is why cigars are more popular in tropical climates).  

              •  Yeah, I just want one.... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                G2geek

                ...that I can smoke more than once or twice a day without it going sour.  I'd go with a meer but they're so damn fragile.

                •  maybe I'm crazy but... (0+ / 0-)

                  ... I find that any of the regular straight shapes, plus adequate use of pipe cleaners, holds up for a day with no issues.  Might also be the local climate (moderate temperatures & humidity levels), or the blends I'm smoking, or some mysterious unknown:-)

                  But anyway, yeah do the experiment and see how it turns out.  Then the next time some anti-smoking zealot posts a control-freak diary, we can wade in and you can post your results and we can go recruiting more pipe smokers and pissing off the anti's.  

                  •  heh..... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    G2geek

                    ....I'm in Oregon.  Temperatures tend to be moderate.... but for a big chunk of the year, humidity is anything but.  :)

                    I'm also not fond of straights.  Too heavy on my teeth.  I really prefer a good deep bend.  I'd try a calabash if I could find and afford one.  That seems like it would be a much drier smoke.  Sure, there's still a meerschaum bowl, but it seems like it would be easier to take care of than a solid meer.  (And I do like meers as far as smoking them is concerned, it just seems like carrying one around would be a lot like carrying a ceramic coffee cup around...)

                    •  all of the above:-) (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Corwin Weber

                      I tend to prefer bents also (judging from the relative numbers of straights & bents I have), though for some odd reason I tend to smoke straights during the work day (and bents after hours).   Might be some silly ritualistic thing:-)

                      Calabashes are wonderful, but are actually quite heavy and also somewhat fragile: definitely a "sit at home and smoke this while reading a good book" pipe rather than a "take it into the field" pipe.  Also the meerschaum bowl can become "loose" in the sense that it doesn't stay firmly in place in the gourd: it's tight enough for smoking, but you don't want to turn it upside down and shake it.  So for all these reasons, definitely the pipe for an undisturbed contemplative hour sitting down somewhere that you won't have to get up & run around.  (I have one and it's A+.  I generally lead an austere & spartan life but a couple of expensive pipes are among a few rare exceptions; and in any case the cost is spread out over decades of enjoyment.)

                      For sheer lightness nothing beats meerschaum but as you said, it's fragile.  That and the good ol' corn cob though IMHO corn cobs impart a noticeable taste difference and aren't quite my style.  Also there are those rubber bit protectors called Softees or whatever, that one can buy in quantity cheaply on Ebay: these prevent toothmarks on stems and also make it easier to hold a pipe between the teeth.  

                      Re. Oregon weather:  Another option for dealing with humidity: the Savinelli "dry system," that uses a small insert of balsa wood in the stem where it joins the bowl.  (Generally these are like the Peterson "system" pipes but you insert a piece of balsa wood at the end of the stem.)  The balsa wood is highly absorbent and is easily changed out with no muss or fuss after a pipe has cooled off.  Also you can get balsa wood from any hobby shop (it's used for model aircraft and other modeling) to keep an inexpensive supply on hand for replacements.   I have a couple of Savinelli pipes with the configuration for this but oddly enough I've never seen a need to use balsa inserts: the pipes stay cool & dry on their own.   Though I should try it just to see what changes if anything.  

                      I'll let you in on my secret for darn good briar at a decent price:  Peterson "Irish Seconds."  Same quality of wood and overall design as in Peterson's main lines (Aran etc.), but with minor cosmetic flaws & fills.  Look on Ebay for these, as Peterson isn't exporting them to the US new any more.   These tend to be on the large side and correspondingly heavy, but that's OK with me, and IMHO they're great.

                      There may be other makers who are producing natural briar pipes with no added finish, at decent prices.  These will appear to be relatively light colored but will darken up over time, and there's no stain or varnish to impart nasty tastes during break-in.  

                      So I gotta' question: what sorts of blends do you like?  

                      •  I've gone off blends. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        G2geek

                        At this point?  Captain Black.  It's relatively cheap and I can get it anywhere.  I've gotten used to smoke shop blends before... then what happens?  I move to another city and I can't freakin get it anymore.  :P

                        •  here's another secret..... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Corwin Weber

                          Most of the smoke shop house blends are just their own names for stuff that is available anywhere under different names.  

                          The relatively obscure stuff in tins is what may be difficult to get in different places, depending on what they carry.  

                          However, check this out:

                          http://www.cupojoes.com/

                          They're cool, they carry just about everything, excellent prices, etc.  You can order by phone with a credit/debit card.  

                          BTW, Captain Black is the over-the-counter version of "Lane RLP-6."

                          You can find that here:

                          http://www.cupojoes.com/...

                          Go down the page to RLP-6 "Gold Virginia Toasted Cavendish."  $30 a pound.  Woohoo!:-)  And doesn't have the humidity-retaining additive that's used in Captain Black in the over-the-counter pouches.  So this will stay drier, and if needed can be stored in a container with some humidity-reducing capability so as to dry it out beyond what's otherwise possible at your local humidity levels.  

                          If you want to try duplicating the generic blend I make for myself, do this:  Lane BCA, 1 lb.  MV-1000, 2 oz.  RLP-6, 2 oz.  Mix all of these together in a clean container, taking care to get the shredded Virginia (MV-1000) evenly distributed in the mix.  Then stuff all of it into a mason jar or similar container (airtight is good, nearly-so is OK).  Scoop an ounce into another pouch or tin to use for however-many days' supply so you're not opening up the mason jar every day.  

                          If you're in the mood to try something really really superb, go here:

                          http://www.cupojoes.com/...

                          Look for any of Abingdon, Chelsea Morning, Montgomery, and Quiet Nights.  Typically $12 per 2-oz. tin or $39 per 8-oz can.  All of those are at the top of my list, and I'd suggest starting with Montgomery.  

                          They also have a huge selection of pipes, from easily affordable to way expensive.  

                          •  BAD site for me. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            G2geek

                            Very bad.  Fortunately being unemployed I don't have that kinda cash anyway.... worth bookmarking tho, thanks.  :)

                          •  oh but very good site for saving $$$. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Corwin Weber

                            What's Captain Black cost by the pouch at the store?  Something like $7 for two ounces?   So now figure $30 a pound for RLP-6, and you've just saved nearly half of what you'd spend buying it locally.  

                            Figure out how much you spend on pipe tobac every month.  Now call up Cup O' Joe's and order enough to add up to the same cost, and see how long that supply lasts.  

                            What on that site is particularly tempting but out-of-reach at the moment?   (I was looking at pipes... yeah, lots of temptation in those pages, that's for sure.... when I see 3-figure prices I just click the Next button..... OTOH I'd rather buy estate pipes (used) because they've already been broken in, and I can do all the reconditioning myself, which saves a very decent amount compared to buying new.)

                            Re. employment:  a) what field are you in?, b) how many years' experience do you have in that field?, c) what other fields have you worked in even for brief periods?, d) how old are you (within 5 years anyway)?, e) what's your family situation as far as moving to another area is concerned?, and f) what part of the country did you live in for the longest period of time when you were a kid (all I'm looking for here is region e.g. Northeast, Southeast, North central, South central, Northwest, Southwest)?  

                          •  Network security. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            G2geek

                            High tech in general.  About 15 years experience, other than a brief stint in retail when I was a teenager that's the only thing I've ever done.  Can't move.  Lack of resources.  Pushing 40 harder than I'd like to be, and have lived in the Northwest all my life.

                          •  hmm! (0+ / 0-)

                            Network security eh?  

                            I have a couple of people I could introduce you to, one of whom is a fellow Kossak, another of whom is a local network dude in the Bay Area.  They might not have immediate work but they might have leads.  Depending on how the conversations go there might be some other referrals possible.  All of this would be via telework so you can stay where you are.  

                            Email me on g2g-public01 (at) att (period) net  and let's get in touch.  I'll send you my public phone number and then you can call me and I can call you back on my dime (free long distance).    

                            But unfortunately tonight I'm about to go deal with a switch outage, so I gotta' hop in the truck & scoot.   Be back latey-late or in touch tomorrow.  

                            -G2G

                          •  Ok.... browsing through the tobaccos..... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            G2geek

                            ....I found this.

                            http://www.cupojoes.com/...

                            Seriously?  Are you fucking kidding me?!?!?!?!?!?  I mean I don't speak all that much French.... but....

                            Does that say what I think it says?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

                          •  yes, that's for real. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Corwin Weber

                            Here are some reviews:

                            http://www.tobaccoreviews.com/...

                            Apparently it's pretty tasty stuff, not just a gimmick.  Somewhere between English and Scots, not too heavy on the Latakia, and not too heavy on the nicotine.  I think I'm going to order a tin.  

                            Some of the smaller blenders come up with goofy names on purpose, or goofy package graphics.  Cornell & Diehl have a few like that.  

                            What I'd really like to see is someone use traditional marijuana brand names for pipe tobac.  That would be funny as hell, as a statement about the politics of legalizing pot and banning tobacco.  "Panama Red," and "Acapulco Gold" come to mind, or just plain "Marijuana Blend #01."  Try getting that through airport security:-)   "But officer, it's a joke, here go look it up..."  (five minutes later)  "Heh, pretty funny, OK, here's your tobacco, have a nice flight!"  (The text on the back of the label on the tin should say something along the lines of, "A delicious pipe tobacco disguised as a tin of marijuana, just in case they ever manage to legalize pot and ban tobacco.  Enjoy!")

                            Guess what?  I have a switch outage in downtown, so I gotta grab the tools, hop in the truck, and go restore dialtone to @ 120 phones.  Wonderful way to spend part of a weekday night.  La la la... anyway I'll be back latey-late or tomorrow.

                            BTW my public email address is g2g-public01 (at) att (period) net  in case you want to get in touch directly.   We can talk about this stuff endlessly in email and I can talk more freely than I can in public places.  

                          •  Ok, but seriously..... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            G2geek

                            ....HORSE SHIT BRAND PIPE TOBACCO?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

                          •  sure, why not? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Corwin Weber

                            Why should we take ourselves too seriously?  

                            Just because most of the 20th century physicists from Einstein on down smoked pipes, along with a good number of philosophers and writers throughout the ages, and a decent number of great jazz musicians, doesn't mean we have to be all stuffy and proper about it.  BTW, Einstein's favorite blend was called Revelation, which has two or three wonderful ironies to it.  

                            This is also the difference between Big Tobacco and Small Tobacco.  

                            Big Tobacco is so busy covering its ass and protecting its brands, that it would never ever in a million years do something like that, for example, "Crappy Cigarettes: they taste like poo but they get the job done!"

                            Small Tobacco is like micro-breweries.  They do stuff like that because it's funny, because the owner of the company thinks people might like it, etc.  They can afford to take chances even though it's not a high-profit biz, because today's "good God what was he thinking of when he created that one?!" becomes tomorrow's "I let this stuff age for three years and it's really tasty now!" and a collector's item that's sought after and stirs up conversations.  

                            I think I'm going to take a tin of Merde de Cheval with me when I go visit the folks over the holidays.  This could get really funny.  "Are you smoking horse shit?!"   "Yeah, it's pretty good horse shit too!"  

          •  If you smoke, you stink, literally. (0+ / 0-)

            You might ask your clients about that but you might not like the answer.

            Americans will make sacrifices but refuse to be sacrificed on the alter of the rich.

            by OHdog on Thu Nov 18, 2010 at 05:36:18 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Indoor Cigar and Pipe Tobacco Smoke (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OHdog

      is just as harmful as cigarette smoke to other people in the room.  That's what matters, not the harmfulness to the smoker.

  •  I smoke. I know it's bad for me. (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ortcutt, Pozzo, JesseCW, MNGrandma, Siri

    Graphic images are not going to do it. But why not, let's give it a try?

    The best thing we could do is try to keep kids from starting in the first place. Graphic images aren't going to effect that.

    I will say, on the other hand, that many of us who smoke have quit many times. It is a hard addiction to break. I like smoking, but know that I must quit. It is imperative that those who want to do the right thing here do not go the way of blaming the victims for our addiction, or for those of us who have tried, and continue to try, to break it but have not been entirely successful.

    Join CM and Co. for AWARDS PLUS EDITION diary each Wed. at 8pm ET.

    by commonmass on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 06:54:44 PM PST

  •  And they are effective? (8+ / 0-)

    Or is it just a race to see who can place the most disgusting picture on a pack of cigarettes?

  •  Fine. (9+ / 0-)

    Truthfully I doubt the problem is that the warnings aren't strong or fear-inducing enough though, but if it'll help, fine.

    Hopefully they'll start putting pictures of necrotic livers on the bottles that liquor and other alcoholic beverages come in also.

    "Ancora Imparo." ("I am still learning.") - Michelangelo, Age 87

    by Dreaming of Better Days on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 06:59:43 PM PST

    •  Or crashed cars (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pozzo, JesseCW, erush1345

      I grew up on Fort Gordon.  Just before the holidays, they'd drag a mangled car from a recent DUI conviction and plop it on a pedestal right outside the gate, with a big "DO NOT DRINK AND DRIVE" warning for the soldiers leaving for home.

      I still remember the twisted, contorted hunks of metal, in which no human could have possibly survived...

      Conservatives: They love America. They hate actual Americans.

      by catwho on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:04:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  And pictures (0+ / 0-)

      "You just think you're a Democrat. You'll grow out of it." My Mother, when I was 50+

      by MNGrandma on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:33:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oops, pushed wrong button (8+ / 0-)

        I was going to say, pictures of obese people on candy bars, victims of bike accidents on helmets, and pictures of bitten chilren on pet shelter ads.  We no longer understand words, we must have the pictures.

        "You just think you're a Democrat. You'll grow out of it." My Mother, when I was 50+

        by MNGrandma on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:38:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I can just (6+ / 0-)

          hear the NRA and gun lobby if it was suggested putting graphic images of gunshot victims on boxes of bullets.

          "Ancora Imparo." ("I am still learning.") - Michelangelo, Age 87

          by Dreaming of Better Days on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:52:07 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  lots and lots of graphic gore everywhere. (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          high uintas, kyril, JesseCW, mdmslle, erush1345

          On every piece of heavy machinery, pictures of mangled corpses.

          On every automobile, more mangled corpses.

          Mangled corpses everywhere!   And rotting genitals from STDs on every porno magazine cover!  

          Corpses!  Gore!  Violence!  Mangled!  Mutilated!  Ground up like meat!  

          Let's fucking saturate people with it everywhere they turn!

          Make it as inescapable as cigarette smoke back in the days when everyone smoked everywhere all the time and there were no non-smoking areas.  

          America the Snuff Movie, 24/7 and 360-degrees.  

          •  You know, I'm not grossed out by them (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            erush1345

            I'm fascinated.

            Then again, I'm the sort of nerd that watches surgery on the Discovery channel, and stares at the nice Red Cross folks when I donate platelets, totally intrigued by the process.

            Conservatives: They love America. They hate actual Americans.

            by catwho on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 08:26:49 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  good for you, but.... (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              high uintas, kyril, JesseCW, erush1345

              .... there are a lot of us around who make serious efforts to avoid being exposed to graphic gore of all kinds.  I don't watch TV or movies to avoid that shit.  

              For folks with PTSD this is a huge problem: that shit gets stuck in a tape-loop in the brain and causes flashbacks that occur at random times during the day, as painfully as getting jabbed in the guts with a sharp object.  

              If someone wants to watch that stuff, that's their right & their privilege.  

              But if someone tries to rub my eyes in it against my will, they're going to see how I react when I'm physically threatened.  

              •  And now you know how I feel (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Pozzo
                - when I smell a cigarette and want to retch.

                Conservatives: They love America. They hate actual Americans.

                by catwho on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 08:41:34 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  If you think nasuea is somehow comparable (6+ / 0-)

                  to the psychological trauma G2 is talking about, you've got a lot more reasearch to do on PTSD.

                  At least you're starting to drop the pretense that you give a damn about the people tobacco actually harms, and getting down to brass tacks.

                  You don't wanna smell yucky stuff.

                  Well, I don't particularly want to smell cheap colognes that give me migranes so bad I get tunnel vision.  But...I'm not trying to pass a law against them.

                  Here's hoping you some day figure out that it's not the purpose of a society to make sure you never encounter anything that offends you, no matter the cost to others.

                  •  It's not just a bad smell to me (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Pozzo

                    Something that gives me flu symptoms isn't merely a psychological "yuck."  It's a confirmed allergic reaction to the tars and other additives in cigarettes and it runs in my family, apparently.  My older sister has it as well - shortly after she was born, she developed severe bronchitis, and the doctor determined that my father's pack a day habit was the cause.  He quit cold turkey since it was hurting his baby girl, and her bronchitis cleared up within weeks.

                    No, it's not the same as PTSD, but smokers treat people like me who have legitimate complaints against them as whiners or "puritans" and it's frankly unfair.  My only option to avoid it 100% of the time is to wear a gas mask in public, which is of course impractical.  (I seriously considered that for an Armin van Buuren concert being held in one ATL nightclub that permitted indoor smoking.)

                    And honestly, if someone is wearing horrible cologne or perfume, you have the right to complain if it's in an office environment and you're forced to sniff it for an extended period of time.  Otherwise, hold your breath and move on, like I do with cigarettes in every possible situation.

                    Conservatives: They love America. They hate actual Americans.

                    by catwho on Thu Nov 18, 2010 at 10:35:23 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Wow! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            high uintas

            Corpses!  Gore!  Violence!  Mangled!  Mutilated!  Ground up like meat!  

            That might be the most Metal post made on this site!

  •  Sheesh. (14+ / 0-)

    Smoking cigarettes is about the only relief/pleasure I have left at my disposal. I wouldn't give a shit what ghoulish image was on the package if they'd knock a few bucks off the "sin tax". I really don't want government do-gooders fucking around in my personal pursuits. This shit can get done but unjust wars and occupations, bludgeoning the populace with lies and fear, allowing corporate profiteering practices....too much trouble. Funny how kicking down poor people at every single opportunity manages to sail right through....

    •  bingo! (18+ / 0-)

      It's all about kicking people who have less power.

      Republicans kick Democrats, some of whom look for someone they can kick.

      Let's see... can't kick homos any more... can't kick Mexicans....

      Aha!  Let's kick smokers!

      And all the righteous left-puritans pile on, in the grand history of American puritanism whereby other peoples' pleasures become fair game.  

      But here's the dirty little secret:

      Puritans enjoy it.  They enjoy kicking other people, they enjoy beating their chests righteously, and they enjoy putting themselves one-up over anyone weaker than themselves.

      In short they're bullies.

      And all the rationalizations they have to offer don't change that one bit.

      •  Witch burners. n/t (7+ / 0-)

        "I was so easy to defeat, I was so easy to control, I didn't even know there was a war." -9.75, -8.41

        by RonV on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:18:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  b-i-n-g-fucking-o (7+ / 0-)

        Puritans enjoy it.  They enjoy kicking other people, they enjoy beating their chests righteously, and they enjoy putting themselves one-up over anyone weaker than themselves.

        QFT x 100

        You're watching Fox News. OH MY GOD--LOOK OUT BEHIND YOU

        by rexymeteorite on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:20:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I just want to breathe? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pozzo, cai, jan4insight

        I don't care what you do in your house, your car, and in the middle of the woods alone.

        But if you smoke in the middle of the sidewalk where I have to walk, I have to smell it, and it hits me like a punch to the gut.  I hold my breath, but the wisps cling to me, trailing after me for several feet, haunting me for many minutes afterward.  

        There's a reason I'm not friends with any smokers.  It has nothing to do with their personalities, and everything to do with my inability to be around them for any length of time whatsoever.

        Conservatives: They love America. They hate actual Americans.

        by catwho on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:36:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yep. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ortcutt, Pozzo, catwho, cai

          The right to poison oneself with airborne particulate toxins ends at my nose!

          "If we work in unity, we will achieve our goal." ~ Aung San Suu Kyi

          by jan4insight on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:47:09 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  great, and have you traded your... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kyril, sargoth, erush1345

            ... internal combustion automobile for an electric?  

            Nissan Leaf or Chevy Volt will do just fine.  There'll be an electric Ford Fiesta next year, and an electric Ford Transit Connect minivan too.  

            •  The other great canard (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Pozzo

              If only I had a nickel for every time someone implied that smoke was smoke, all the same.  Tobacco burns at a very low temperature which results in the production of carcinogenic substances.  When you have a pipe which burns at an adequate temperature and then runs through a catalytic converter, then we can talk about comparisons.

              •  when I have a pipe that.... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                high uintas, kyril

                .... produces as much CO2 in a year as an automobile does in a half hour, then you can stick your nose in my business.  

                Until then, you've got business of your own that's being sorely neglected while you're busily minding everyone else's, and I'd suggest getting back to yours before it gets moldy.  

        •  Aight (7+ / 0-)

          you keep your friendship, Ill keep my smokes graphic nasty lung picture free, and we'll call it a wash.

          You're watching Fox News. OH MY GOD--LOOK OUT BEHIND YOU

          by rexymeteorite on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:51:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  red herrings abound... (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DigDug, high uintas, kyril, JesseCW, erush1345

          First of all, some of the anti-smoking zealots DO care about what people do in their houses and in their cars and in the woods alone.

          Second, there's a difference between a crowded sidewalk in the middle of the day, and a more or less empty sidewalk after hours.  

          Third, if you think tobacco is the only smoke in cities, you have an amazing imagination.  Studies show health impacts of city car pollution on people who live up to 1/4 mile away from major thoroughfares.  

          So let's ban internal combustion engines while we're at it, eh?  

          •  A face full of car exhaust isn't pleasant either (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Pozzo, G2geek

            But I don't go sticking my nose into the tailpipe of my Honda.

            I'd be totally cool with folks smoking regular cigarettes in public if we could somehow force the cig companies to remove the shit that I'm actually allergic to.

            I've said it several times up thread, I actually like the smell of tobacco. Cigar smoke and quality premium pipe tobacco don't bother me all that much, and neither does marijauna smoke. It's the additives in cheap cigarettes that make me sick to my stomach, literally.  

            Conservatives: They love America. They hate actual Americans.

            by catwho on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 08:31:22 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  yes, me too, and.... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              catwho

              .... here's the dirty little secret:

              Adding ammonia and a couple of other things to tobacco converts nicotine to its free base form.   Yes, as in crack.   That makes it highly bioavailable with a rapid uptake, and as with the difference between a cup of coffee and a shot of meth, the rapid uptake makes a major difference.  

              So the simple solution here is to ban the additives that free-base the nicotine.  This will result in cigarettes becoming far less addictive, thus reducing the quantity smoked, and making it much easier to quit.  

              An old friend of mine is a well-known blender of premium pipe tobacco and he knows the whole scoop on the pipe tobacco industry, which he has told me in detail.  Bottom line is, the premium blenders use nothing but real tobacco with small amounts of liquors and spices added to certain blends.  The bulk blenders such as Lane indulge in fruit flavorings such as the stereotypical cherry and apple, which are added in the form of fruit juice concentrate.  Everyone uses vanilla and honey to some degree; the premium blenders use very little, the bulk blenders use quite a bit more.  

              The only chemical additive used is propylene glycol, which is used to retain moisture to prevent the tobacco drying out in dry climates.  The bulk blenders use that stuff for the sake of maintaining uniformity, but the premium blenders do not because it interferes with the flavor: it can cause a blend to be too moist, which translates to producing steam rather than smoke, which results in a hot taste.  

              But there is no ammonia in pipe tobacco, nor anything else to goose up the nicotine level.  Pipe smokers wouldn't stand for it, for the same reason we wouldn't tolerate briar pipes being replaced with high-temperature plastic ones.  (In fact some years ago there was an attempt to create a kind of plastic pipe bowl called "brylon," and it was rejected so thoroughly that the few remaining examples are considered collectors' items, though not something to actually smoke!)

        •  We all got problems... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          high uintas, kyril, sargoth, mdmslle

          ...and it's part and parcel of living in society. I'm offended by perfumes, uncontrolled children, displays of religiosity, idiots nattering on cell phones and a shitload of other stuff but I contend with it because it's the deal we make to live amongst each other. I doubt you'll find many smokers with your selfish shitty attitude who refuse to have friends because they DON'T smoke. All of that secondhand smoke stuff is utter nonsense and it's certainly no credit to your critical faculties that you fell for it.  

          •  You are gravely mistaken (0+ / 0-)

            about the secondhand smoke issues.  Peer reviewed studies have shown it time and time again - secondhand smoke may have as many carcinogens as the firsthand smoke.  This isn't just cigarette smoke, but many other kinds of smoke as well, based on air particulate count.  

            Now, the "third-hand" smoke one is up for debate - where small children crawling around in the carpets of parents homes can inhale lingering fumes that have settled into the fiber, even if no smokers are present in the house any more.  I'm disinclined to believe that.

            Conservatives: They love America. They hate actual Americans.

            by catwho on Sat Nov 20, 2010 at 04:15:39 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Nicotene.... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      high uintas, kyril

      ...is also one of the few drugs that helps people with OCD and Tourette's that doesn't have brutal side effects.  (Look up Haloperiadol.)

  •  Nanny Nanny Boo Boo (17+ / 0-)

    This nanny state stuff is nauseating.  Let the cig companies produce their product and package it the way they want.  Or how about we put pix of FAT PEOPLE on every food item in the supermarket?  Enuf is more than enuf already.

  •  Paternalism is so obnoxious (13+ / 0-)

    People should be responsible for their own health, if they want to smoke, they should be able to smoke!  They should be able to smoke from packs of cigarettes that have whatever images and words on them that they feel like!

    Cigarette companies should be able to put whatever words and images on their packs that they want, it is their property, if their customers like them, they'll buy them, if they don't, they won't.

    Warnings on cigarette packs are hardly the issue, the real issue is the philosophy behind it.  It is a philosophy that negates our human right to own our bodies and the property that is an extension of it.  

    It is immoral to threaten anyone with violence who isn't committing a crime.  The cigarette companies would not be committing a crime by making a cigarette pack that had no warning labels, the government who forces them to place warning labels is committing the crime.

    •  So it's okay (0+ / 0-)

      for healthcare companies to charge whatever they want to smokers too, isn't it?

      Conservatives: They love America. They hate actual Americans.

      by catwho on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:40:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  more red herrings. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Corwin Weber, kyril, JesseCW, mdmslle

        The way to deal with this is to charge health risk user fees to all products that have health risks associated with them, and then put that into the single-payer system.

        Make the fees proportional to the actual risks, based on the empirical costs of treating the relevant conditions.

        Yes, that includes mountain-climbing gear: anyone foolish enough to put themselves in a place where one wrong move can make them go splat! ought to pay for the privilege.  

    •  Threaten with violence? (0+ / 0-)

      You're completely over the top.  I can assure you that the FDA has no ability to impose the Death Penalty or any physical forms of punishment on anyone through any court of law.  Your rhetoric is bizarre.

  •  ugh. (14+ / 0-)

    Listen, I know the fucking risks to my health already! What do you think, I am fucking child?

    I am fucking addicted, not stupid.

    You're watching Fox News. OH MY GOD--LOOK OUT BEHIND YOU

    by rexymeteorite on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:19:27 PM PST

  •  if you don't know (10+ / 0-)

    smoking is bad for you in this day and age - no warning is going to help you

    The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

    by ctexrep on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:22:53 PM PST

  •  Tell Me..... (14+ / 0-)

    Are we going to put pictures of rotting livers & some family hit by a drunk driver on bottles of Budweiser and all alcohol products next?

    For that matter, over 30,000 people died last year in car accidents. Should the Department of Transportation put a skull & crossbones on the window sticker of every car announcing the obvious possibility?

    The Canadian study being cited by proponents of this policy was a phone survey of 616 smokers, with 20% saying they smoked less (not that they quit smoking, and it also means for the other 80% it had no effect). While the study's authors concluded that "negative emotional reactions were associated with greater effectiveness of the warning labels," they also provide a caveat.

    This research has several limitations. First, in the absence of pre-post measurements, the current study was not able to assess changes in avoidance and emotional reactions from the previous generation of Canadian warning labels. Second, there is no control group against which to compare the impact of the Canadian warnings.

    •  20% smoking less... (0+ / 0-)

      is a big deal.  The study also didn't take up the question of what effect the warnings would have on people who aren't yet addicted.  Like any public health initiative, it's a multi-pronged effort, and graphic warnings are only part of that.  Restricting youth access is part of it.  Higher taxes are part of it.  More money spent on cessation programs is part of it.

      NYC is an example of what a combination approach can achieve.

      http://www.nyc.gov/...

      Their smoking rate fell 20% in 5 years.  

    •  Not just a skull and crossbones on the window (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      high uintas

      I want a graphic picture of a bloody corpse in the mangled wreckage of a car wrapped around a tree, painted in exquisite detail on the driver's side door of each new car.

  •  I love smoking. I really do. (9+ / 0-)

    As I said upthread, I have tried to stop, several times. But when I'm smoking I really like it. I even look pretty good for a middle aged guy who smokes and has several cocktails each evening.

    Of course I know it's bad for me. It is also fabulous, in it's own way. Addiction is not the only reason some of us smoke.

    You be the judge: Do I look horrible for 41?
     title=

    Join CM and Co. for AWARDS PLUS EDITION diary each Wed. at 8pm ET.

    by commonmass on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:28:30 PM PST

    •  Looking good, dude n/t (6+ / 0-)

      "You just think you're a Democrat. You'll grow out of it." My Mother, when I was 50+

      by MNGrandma on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:41:22 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah, I used to love smoking too. (9+ / 0-)

      First thing I had to deal with to finally quit is tell myself:

      "You'll always want to smoke. You'll never convince yourself that it's undesirable. You'll always want another smoke. But you'll have to stop anyway."

      I loved every cigarette I ever had, but I did finally quit.

      (If I ever get diagnosed with a terminal disease, though, first thing I'm doing is buying a pack of smokes.)

      I, for one, welcome our new hillbilly overlords.

      by Bush Bites on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:55:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'll always want a cigarette now and again. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        high uintas, kyril, commonmass

        But, for me, there is no "a" cigarette.

        I figured that out the hard way, falling off the wagon once when I'd been clean for 48 hours.  I broke down, bought a pack, went to sit behind the 7-11 and "just smoke one to take the edge off".

        I had to smoke seven in 20 minutes to get back to feeling normal.

    •  Ya but, ya but (5+ / 0-)

      Smoking cigarettes leads to body piercing!

      One of the reasons I continue to smoke is it keeps my canker sores totally at bay. I had them so painful that I had to give up playing the saxophone when I was 10 years old.

      •  I am going to tell you a true story. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        high uintas, MA Liberal, kyril, Crider

        I'm a composer, of music. My undergraduate mentor and composition prof, a wonderful man called Stanley Hollingsworth, who has since passed on, used to buy me smokes in college when I was short of money. I smoked two packs of unfiltered Camels a day. He smoked the same, but less of it. I would go in to my lesson and put my work on his desk and he'd offer me a cigarette and light me up. It's just the way it was done.

        Needless to say, I don't smoke unfiltered Camels any more, or smoke that much. But I can still smell his studio, when we'd light up and go over my work. It was a great smell. And he was a great man. And would have been, even if he didn't smoke.

        Join CM and Co. for AWARDS PLUS EDITION diary each Wed. at 8pm ET.

        by commonmass on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 08:16:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  You're right! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kyril, commonmass

      I often think that people who die in car crashes, plane crashes, in war, etc. didn't die from smoking. Their quitting wouldn't have saved their lives.
      I smoke too. I may quit one day, I don't know. But I would never prevent someone else from doing something that affects only them and doesn't harm others.

      •  Well, some people could argue (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kyril

        That it effects everyone. Second hand smoke. The health insurance costs from smoking-related illnesses. So here's what I propose:

        If you want to ban smoking, on the "cost to society" model ban also: drinking, fast food, Mexican restaurants, all sports, recess for kids that involve swings and teeter-totters, driving, suburbs, highways, television, and above all, FUN.

        Mr. Cromwell? You have a telegram.....

        Join CM and Co. for AWARDS PLUS EDITION diary each Wed. at 8pm ET.

        by commonmass on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 09:04:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Nobody is... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pozzo, commonmass

        preventing you from smoking.  Did anyone prohibit tobacco products?  This myth of tobacco prohibition keeps coming up even though that isn't at issue.  If you smoke in public places, then you could be harming others, but I assume you're talking about smoking in private.  In private, go ahead.  But that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be appropriate warnings or appropriate taxes in order to encourage cessation and discourage adoption.

        •  "encourage cessation". My god. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          high uintas, MA Liberal, kyril

          I don't mean to be mean, but you speak like a true non-smoker. You have no idea. Cigarettes, I understand, are more addictive than heroin. "Encourage". With all do respect, people shouldn't wax wonky on subject with which they have no experience.

          Join CM and Co. for AWARDS PLUS EDITION diary each Wed. at 8pm ET.

          by commonmass on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 09:32:29 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Prohibition is no myth (0+ / 0-)

          it comes up all the time in discussions about smoking.
          The places where people cold once smoke are now just about gone. Now they want to stop people from smoking out in the open, in public, on the street.

          I don't think people should blow it on anyone's faces, or do it where someone else is subject to breathing it in in quantity. But we even have companies that want to "drug test" people to see if nicotine is in their blood. If it is, you're fired.

          Oh sure, they can talk a big game about how it costs the company money. But so do people who eat too much, drink too much, ingest too much sugar, etc.

          Americans talk a lot about freedom. About Liberty. But we increasingly want to know what people are doing in their private lives that we don't agree with, and then put restrictions on them for what they do that we don't agree with.

          If I, or anyone else, is walking down a street, smoking a cigarette, and a whiff blows your way, get over it. It's not going to kill you.

  •  No no no, you're not going far enough (12+ / 0-)

    If you really want to discourage people from smoking, then the only logical method would be to randomly place a small amount of explosives in one cigarette out of ten thousand. Then lighting up becomes russian roulette. And that will teach those filthy, disgusting smokers!

    Nothing brings people together more than mutual hatred.

    by Hannibal on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:37:05 PM PST

    •  make it 1 out of 20 or 30. (7+ / 0-)

      Put explosives in one cigarette in each pack.

      And put cyanide in one bottle of beer in each case.  

      And while we're at it, let's build one car out of each 20 or 30 with the exhaust routed into the passenger compartment.  

      Let's not forget cyanide in one donut out of every two dozen, and one Big Mac out of every two dozen.  

      One porno magazine out of 20 can be contaminated with STD germs in the centerfold, so you can get drug-resistant syphilis from wacking off.  

      After all, the wages of sin are death, so.....

      •  A recent study on the mutagens in cig smoke (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        high uintas, Pozzo, Hannibal, OHdog
        - put the risk of mutations at 1 out of ever 14 smokes.

        Now, not all mutations are bad.  You probably get that many mutations just by spending an hour in the sunshine.  Most mutations in DNA are harmless, and with 3 million base pairs of DNA, of which 90% is "junk" DNA, odds are pretty damn good that those one out of 14 cigarettes won't hit anything vital.

        But the study authors cautioned that it does make cigarettes like a pack of Russian roulette, albeit a terribly low risk one in the short term.

        Tanning beds are still worse.

        Conservatives: They love America. They hate actual Americans.

        by catwho on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 08:35:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Awesome (6+ / 0-)

          So every time I light up, I could potentially become a superhero?

          Nothing brings people together more than mutual hatred.

          by Hannibal on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 08:44:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Totally! (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Hannibal, kyril

            What will you call yourself? Tobacco Man? Or is that too generic?

            What would your superpower be?

            (If I could have one superpower from tobacco, it'd be to take away the mutagens from the cigarettes so people could enjoy them without fear or guilt, and take away the shit that makes me sick so they could enjoy them around me, too.)

            Conservatives: They love America. They hate actual Americans.

            by catwho on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 08:47:56 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I remember the arguement that.... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          high uintas, kyril

          .... people shouldn't take LSD because it could cause "chromosome damage."  

          It was used in elementary school, to try to scare us away from even thinking of taking LSD.  

          Did it work...?

          Hmm.

          •  no because it wasn't true.(unless you live in (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            high uintas

            a test tube)

            Americans will make sacrifices but refuse to be sacrificed on the alter of the rich.

            by OHdog on Thu Nov 18, 2010 at 05:52:21 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, that one was debunked (0+ / 0-)

            The nice thing about science is that the stupid bullshit is eventually weeded out.

            Like saccharine causing cancer.  All those years it had a label because it caused bladder crystals to form in lab rats, when there was never any proper study done on the actual effects of it in humans.  After 50 years of meta-data from all the humans not getting bladder cancer, the FDA finally gave up and products that contain it no longer have to carry the cancer warning (although I believe the warning is still on the pink packets and the bottles of the liquid stuff.)

            LSD can still mess you up, but that has more to do with damage to neurons than mutations.

            Conservatives: They love America. They hate actual Americans.

            by catwho on Thu Nov 18, 2010 at 10:45:03 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  here is you (11+ / 0-)

    here is your gin and tonic sir, oh and dont forget you coaster with a picture of a diseased liver onit.  AFter all, we all must be treated like children in 21st century america.

    The child has grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb.

    by dark daze on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:38:40 PM PST

  •  So now what we're going to do.... (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DigDug, kyril, erush1345, MNGrandma, Siri

    .... is expose everyone, not just smokers, to graphically gory imagery whether they choose to see it or not.

    You walk through the grocery store, and there in the cigarette rack will be a wall of graphic gore.

    You're sitting at a restaurant eating a meal, and someone at an adjacent table puts their belongings on the table, including a pack of smokes, and there you get another dose of graphic gore whether you like it or not.  

    You walk down the street and there's a cigarette pack on the ground next to a McDonald's wrapper and a soda can: once again, involuntary exposure to graphic gore.  

    Lovely, just wonderful.

    Let's start putting up billboards with huge video screens showing all manner of gory shit too.  Surgery, violent crime, war footage, what the hell.   Nothing like saturation coverage with blood & guts a'plenty, as a statement of our real cultural values.

    And any sissy or faggot or hyper-sensitive little pansy who doesn't like it can just stay home.  

    Is that the message you want to send?  Like it or not, that's the message you're sending.

    •  They're so small.. (0+ / 0-)

      ... it's like complaining about someone looking at porn on their iPod.

      Conservatives: They love America. They hate actual Americans.

      by catwho on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:41:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm sure warning labels for porn will be next (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek, kyril

        Though I'm not sure how you could graphically depict the dangers of the evil scary pornography in a way that's not going to make everybody on Earth laugh, or be at least mildly aroused.

        Nothing brings people together more than mutual hatred.

        by Hannibal on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:42:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  oh, that's easy. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Hannibal, Corwin Weber, kyril, MNGrandma

          Like this:

          Porn leads to promiscuity, which leads to STDs, and the wages of sin are death.

          So all you need are pictures of genitals infested with tertiary syphilis and so on, rotting away like discarded meat.  And pictures of AIDS patients wasting away to death in hospitals.  

          That ought to do it!  Put that on the cover of every porno magazine!

          BTW, puritanical sanctimony produces a dopamine buzz.  Same as nicotine.   Isn't that interesting?  

      •  more bullshit. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Corwin Weber, kyril, erush1345

        If they're "so small," why bother?

        And if someone is sitting next to me on the bus looking at porn on their iThing, yeah that's objectionable.  If I can't walk into a grocery store without seeing a wall of iThings all writhing with porn, yeah that's objectionable.  

        I don't want to see it.  Period.  And I don't want to see graphic gore in public places either.   I avoid movies and television specifically to avoid graphic violence, and now you and yours want to splatter blood & guts in public places where I and others can't avoid being exposed to it.  

        So take your sanctimony and use it as wank fodder, but keep it to yourself.

        BTW, sanctimony produces dopamine release: the same buzz produced by nicotine.  

        •  Fine then (0+ / 0-)

          Don't smoke around me, then.  You don't want to see it, I don't want to smell it.

          Everyone's happy.

          Conservatives: They love America. They hate actual Americans.

          by catwho on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 08:07:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  as a matter of fact.... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Corwin Weber, kyril

            .... I don't smoke (pipe smoker here) around people who don't smoke.  When I have passengers in my truck I don't smoke in the truck either.  

            That's called having normal good manners.  And that's something you can't get from people by cajoling or coercing them, or rubbing their eyes in graphic gore.  

            •  Ah, but the scent lingers (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              G2geek

              I can't ride in a smoker's car even if they're not actively smoking.  The smell permeates the very interior of the car and can take months after the last cigarette was smoked to fade away.

              I think the worst was at my old company, where the smoker's patio and shelter was the only place large enough on the corporate campus to do fun outdoorsey things, besides the parking lot.  So they'd have their monthly "Fun Friday" out there.

              The smell was everywhere.  Everywhere.  I think it had become ingrained into the bricks of the building and the cement of the patio - certainly the fabric on the tents and picnic table umbrellas.

              After the first misadventure where I threw up in the bushes, I had to confine myself to the break room for all the rest of the Fun Fridays, looking outside through the windows at everyone else having fun.  It was depressing.

              I wish I was allergic to peanuts instead.

              Conservatives: They love America. They hate actual Americans.

              by catwho on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 08:54:39 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  it sucks to be allergic to something that's..... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kyril, erush1345

                ... so pervasive.  I once had a close friend who was allergic to nuts, as in, even a trace in food could cause his throat to swell up to where he couldn't breathe, and that was potentially fatal.   So you really don't want to be allergic to peanuts.  

                There are a bunch of food smells that make me gag, eggs being one of them.  Watching people eat shellfish (lobster, crab, etc.) is good for ruining my appetite too (eew, giant bugs!).  And I really do not like being around people who are drunk or very very stoned, it's kinda like having a conversation with a vegetable.  

                But I don't fret over being disengaged from the relevant social events, any more than I fret over being unable to talk "movies" with people because I don't go to movies in order to avoid the violence.

                By analogy: I'm gay and I could care less about all the heterosexuality I'm missing.  It's just not for me, and so be it.  

                •  yeah, I can't do movies either (0+ / 0-)

                  Nothing to do with violence, and everything to do with sensitive hearing.  I go to a movie with 5.1 surround sound, I leave with a splitting headache.

                  Movies, at least, can be appreciated at home with friends on a better, easier scale than they can in a movie theater.

                  Conservatives: They love America. They hate actual Americans.

                  by catwho on Thu Nov 18, 2010 at 04:26:34 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

    •  I believe (0+ / 0-)

      "You just think you're a Democrat. You'll grow out of it." My Mother, when I was 50+

      by MNGrandma on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:42:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This goes beyond giving people information... (6+ / 0-)

      ...to make up their own minds.

      This is propaganda, basically.

      Same as the anti-abortion people use.

      I, for one, welcome our new hillbilly overlords.

      by Bush Bites on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:48:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  ka-ching! mutilated un-born babies! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kyril

        The righties get a big buzz out of forcing women who are seeking abortions, to watch videos of fetuses sweet innocent little unborn babies squirming and writhing in heart-rending agony as the evil satanic doctor hacks them to pieces!  

        So now we have the left-puritan equivalent.

        It figures.  

    •  Fine with me (0+ / 0-)

      I would love if these graphic warning labels were billboards around town, not just on packets of cigarettes.

      •  .... and fuck the PTSD sufferers, right? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kyril, erush1345

        You're willing to rub peoples' eyes in all manner of graphic gore on billboards, even to the extent of triggering PTSD and giving people flashbacks who have nothing to do with you and nothing to do with smoking, right?

        Dude, that is fucking sick.  

        You're hooked on a dopamine buzz from righteous sanctimony.  The buzz from nicotine is due to its effects on the dopamine system.  So in effect you're no different than the smokers you despise.  

        You ought to be ashamed of yourself.  Deal with your own dopamine addiction first, and then get back to us after you've cleaned up your brain.

        •  Oh God (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pozzo

          You're cracking me up with this made-up PTSD/tobacco warnings thing.  I'll give you credit for creativity though.  I bet you had to smoke a few pipes thinking up that one.

          •  Good God what an asshole! (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kyril, mdmslle

            If you don't think that graphically gory imagery is a PTSD trigger, you ought to try this little experiment some day:

            Take six or eight hits of acid and spend the next twelve hours watching every gory video you can get your hands on, back to back, no breaks.  

            Even better if someone kidnaps you, ties you to a chair, and does it to you against your will.  

            Then try to get that shit out of your head for the next few months, or years.  And see what happens any time you see anything remotely resembling those videos.  Good fucking luck.  

            That's just a tiny little sliver of what it's like.  Just a taste.  The tip of an iceberg.  

            If you want to call it "made-up", then you'll have no objection to doing the experiment on yourself because it won't have any effect.  

            That's called put up or shut up.  

          •  OK, i figured out your little game. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kyril

            It's not about helping smokers quit.

            It's about making them submit.  Submit to you.  Because you enjoy it.

            It's about imposing your will on others who are a politically weaker group than whatever group you identify with.  

            It's the same petty tyrant game as every other petty tyrant out there, including the ones who want to deny me the right to marry, and the ones who want to force women to watch videos of fetuses before they can have abortions, and the ones who want to make children pray in public schools.

            And it's the same cycle-of-abuse game as the old stereotype about the boss kicking the man who kicks his wife who kicks the kids who in turn kick the dog.  Republicans kick Democrats, some of whom go looking for someone to kick.  Homos are off limits now, so it's going to be someone else: aha!, smokers!

            It gives you a dopamine buzz, which also happens to be what nicotine does.  

            It's an addiction to power and the pleasurable little buzz you get from sanctimonious righteousness.  

            It's fucking sick.

            It belongs in the closet along with whatever nonconsensual sado-porn you might use for wank-fodder.  

  •  Let's have open season on PTSD triggers! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kyril, erush1345

    Did it ever occur to the anti-smoking zealots that graphically gory imagery is a PTSD trigger?  

    And did it ever occur to them that randomly exposing all members of the general public to that shit, whether they smoke or not, just by making it ubiquitous, is going to be a fucking nightmare for people with PTSD?  

    Oh, of course not.

    Better to get a pleasurable little buzz from finding someone to kick.   Can't kick homos no more, may as well kick smokers, and fuck the pansies who happen to get caught in the crossfire.  Right?  

  •  I get kind of sick of the anti-smoking zealots. (8+ / 0-)

    I quit about 20 years ago now, but I still remember how obnoxious non-smokers can be.

    I, for one, welcome our new hillbilly overlords.

    by Bush Bites on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 07:44:16 PM PST

  •  Namibia, Uruguay, Guatemala, Colombia.... (5+ / 0-)

    .... yeah, let's do things they way they do things in those places.

    Let's have death squads too.

    And lots of torture.

    And female genital mutilation.

    And put homos in prison.

    And have de-facto state religion.  

    Just like those places.  

    At this pace we may as well start admiring the Saudis too, for their low crime rate, achieved with the aid of beheadings and stonings.  Too bad about rape victims getting their heads lopped off for "adultery."  

    Wow, progress!

  •  Vermont Will Not Apologize For Its Cheese! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kyril

    In a case of life imitates art, it's funny (or sad) that this policy was basically predicted by 'Thank You For Smoking.' (skip to about 4:14 for the relevant portion)

  •  Goldman-Sachs should have (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RonV, MA Liberal, G2geek, kyril, MNGrandma, Siri

    ..a graphic warning label too. All the "too big to fail" banks should.

    Lung cancer and emphysema via Big Tobacco is small potatoes compared to the waste and ruin those fuckers are wreaking.

  •  Wow, there are some cranky, cranky addicts in (7+ / 0-)

    this comments section.

    My comments may not be used for any purpose without explicit permission.

    by cai on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 08:05:23 PM PST

  •  It's likely to just get kids (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    high uintas, kyril, catwho, erush1345

    to want to buy the packs with the grossest pictures.

    Why not just use the little sound recordings like they have in greeting cards and have the pack say "I'm gonna kill ya" every time it's opened.

    Seriously, I'm a smoker. I'm well aware of the risks. I should quit yes yes yes I know.....this doesn't help, just irritates me to no end.

    "Compassion is the radicalism of our time." -- Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama

    by Siri on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 08:20:46 PM PST

  •  To what end? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kyril, catwho

    We can never, ever prevent ALL people from smoking. Just as we can never, ever stop them from having abortions, drinking, doing drugs, eating food, or breathing.
    Humans do what they will do. Alcohol prohibition didn't work, and drug prohibition isn't working either.
    No one who smokes today can say that it is good for them. I smoke and I know that. And I may well quit one of these days.
    But we cannot spend millions, or billions in fruitless efforts to prevent people from doing things that they are going to do, legal or not.
    Let's stop wasting the billions we spend on drug eradication and trying to put gross photos on cigarette packs and spend it on education and health care.

    •  So, your argument... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pozzo, Vacationland

      is that because we can't get everyone to quit smoking, we should do nothing?  I think you must realize how bad of an argument that is.  I also don't see where tobacco prohibition made it into the discussion.  That's not seriously on the table.  The fact is that many people who haven't yet started smoking are convincible, and many people who smoke and want to quit are helped by motivations like graphic warnings.  I would love if we spent much more on tobacco cessation programs.  They are very effective, but almost every state in the Union has failed to adequately fund them.  Lots of people want to quit smoking, and benefit from someone putting them on a program and giving them cessation aids.  

      •  What I'm saying is that (0+ / 0-)

        it becomes inevitable that people will want to make cigarettes illegal. I've heard the argument before. But, like marijuana and alcohol, that would be a HUGE mistake. Not in the conversation? It's there. Just not said.

        Beyond that, I know people who have died from smoking, lost lungs from smoking and have lost their voicebox from smoking. I know what it does.

        I also know that the tobacco companies were fined millions for their product and the money was supposed to go to smoking cessation programs. But you know what? The states used it for a while and then said, "Oops! We need money! all those Bush programs have f'd our state and we need that money for other things!" And so the programs stopped.

        If we have programs, that's great. Perhaps it will stop kids from smoking until they reach adulthood and can decide for themselves. Perhaps it will make someone quit.

        But, our nation doesn't have the attention span to do anything worthwhile - like stopping a frat boy from starting wars and screwing our country. Smoking is the least of our problems.

        Just sayin'.

  •  Just an idea (0+ / 0-)

    Small fair-trade tobacco companies that don't poison their tobacco with chemicals.  Better for everyone.  With the cost of tobacco these days, they might be able to find a way to compete, if dirty tricks from Big Tob didn't stop them.  Maybe a co-op structure?

  •  I have taken the liberty of adding a GUS tag (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vacationland

     title=

    This diary is an excellent example of how not to do it. You might have included the pictorial warnings or at least a link to them. This diary did a much better job without being strident.

    DeFEUDIATE MY FSCKING AWESOME BLOG, KOSsacks!!!

    Peace?

    by aoeu on Thu Nov 18, 2010 at 04:35:16 AM PST

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