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Polling has begun to emerge on the proposed tax cut deal, and the consensus is that the overall deal is pretty popular. Surveys from both Pew and ABC News / Washington Post support this conclusion. Pew shows support at 65% in favor and 20% opposed. ABC / WaPo has support at 69%-29%.

As always, there is more to learn from any given poll than just the topline results. Here are three important details:

  1. Opinions not well-formed. Whenever survey responses are dominated by people who “somewhat” support / oppose or “somewhat” approve / disapprove of something, it is a clear sign that the universe sampled by the poll does not have strong opinions about the poll topic. And so it is the case with the tax cut deal as well.

    According to the ABC / WaPo poll, only 20% of the country “strongly” supports the deal, and only 12% strongly opposes it. More than two-thirds of the country does not feel strongly about it either way. Even though news of the deal dominated political headlines for the past week, the country has not reacted strongly to it.

  2. Social Security payroll tax cut unpopular. While the deal is popular overall, different elements of the deal vary widely in terms of popularity. In particular it is worth noting that the cut to the Social Security payroll tax is actually quite unpopular. From the ABC / WaPo poll (PDF):

    The payroll tax is the only individual element of the deal that is opposed by a majority of the country. Further, 39% of the country is “strongly” opposed to the deal, equal to the number who “strongly” and “somewhat” support it combined. This aspect of the deal is a minefield for Democrats, in terms of both policy and politics.

  3. People don’t care about the deficit. In case you needed anymore confirmation, people don’t really care about the deficit. In a separate question, ABC News / WaPo poll foregrounded that the deal would balloon the deficit, but most Americans supported it anyway:
    1. Some people oppose this agreement because it will increase the federal deficit by 900 billion dollars, and some also say it fails to raise taxes on wealthy people who can afford it. Others say it’s worth it in order to let people have more money to spend while the economy is still weak. Given these arguments, is this agreement something you support strongly, support somewhat, oppose somewhat or oppose strongly?

    Support: 62% (17% strongly, 45% somewhat)
    Oppose: 34% (14% strongly, 20% somewhat)

    Americans don’t like the deficit in the abstract. Who does? However, when asked to choose between the deficit and tax cuts / spending that they like, Americans will choose the tax cuts / spending everytime. Which shouldn’t surprise anyone, really.

We knew going into this fight that the tax cut deal would be popular, but that ultimately was not our main concern. When the Daily Kos community was polled about whether we should support or oppose the deal, the likely popularity of the deal was listed as one of the main reasons to consider supporting it. And, by a 3-1 margin, you came out in opposition to it anyway.

Finally, keep in mind that the popularity of major economic legislation is not determined primarily by polling at the time of passage of the legislation. Instead, major economic legislation will be viewed through the prism of the state of the economy as a whole a year or two down the line. If the economy shows marked signs of improvement of the majority of Americans, then expect this deal to grow even more popular in retrospect. However, if most Americans consider themselves worse off in two years than they are today, then the popularity of this deal will drop precipitously.

When the stimulus passed in early 2009, it was broadly popular. That simply isn’t the case anymore (click here for complete archive of polling on the stimulus). The same thing will happen to this deal if most Americans do not experience tangible improvements in the state of their pocketbooks.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 12:48 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Democrats are just the same as Republicans (11+ / 0-)

    Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious

    by Scarce on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 12:51:30 PM PST

  •  Well, I hope Americans will experience tangible (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP

    improvement in the state of their pocketbook from this.

    "I've been called worse on the basketball court"

    by doroma on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 12:52:57 PM PST

  •  people don't understand the deficit and the (4+ / 0-)

    disinformation created by the Republic party and MSM is significant:

    Opinions not well-formed.

    Präsidentenelf-maßschach;Warning-Some Snark Above;Cascadia Lives

    by annieli on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 12:53:12 PM PST

  •  Senate vote is 51-5 to pass (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    beltane, annieli

    Needs 60.

    Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious

    by Scarce on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 12:53:20 PM PST

  •  The payroll tax holiday is a knife in the ribs (16+ / 0-)

    of Social Security.

    Thanks Obama.  Your catfood commission took a shit, but you still found a last minute scheme to get over on us.

    The hungry judges soon the sentence sign, And wretches hang, that jurymen may dine.

    by magnetics on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 12:54:29 PM PST

  •  Poll also overstates support for the (13+ / 0-)

    cuts by not breaking out the below 250k and above 250k options.

    Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

    by Robobagpiper on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 12:54:31 PM PST

    •  As long as I've got mine, baby... (7+ / 0-)

      I'm all right Jack
      Keep your hands off my stack

      Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious

      by Scarce on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 12:57:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The cuts are a package deal. (0+ / 0-)

      That's the reality of the legislative process at this time.

      "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

      by Geekesque on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:20:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly. I had to laugh at this (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Matt Z, Robobagpiper, JesseCW

      Opinions not well-formed. Whenever survey responses are dominated by people who "somewhat" support / oppose or "somewhat" approve / disapprove of something, it is a clear sign that the universe sampled by the poll does not have strong opinions about the poll topic. And so it is the case with the tax cut deal as well.

      Might it just not be the case that the opinions themselves are VERY well-formed, but are not captured properly with the polling questions?

      Not only should someone poll with the higher bracket tax cuts as a separate question, but I'd also love to see more questions about unemployment benefits, including support for the 99ers and TAA extensions.

  •  Something for me is good enough for most Americans (7+ / 0-)
    Unfortunately this is a set up for the Republicans to run against Obama on the debt increase during is 4 years.
  •  Nos so far (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geekesque, beltane

    Bingaman
    Feingold
    Gillibrand
    Leahy
    Sanders
    Udall (NM)*

    *According to C-SPAN. Unless it's both Udalls, it was Udall of CO that spoke out against it in the last minutes of debate.

    57 unspecified yeas atm with 37 not voting yet.

    I had a pre-vote guess of 70-16 with 14 I had no idea on. So far all of the nos are Dems.

    N.B. I support a yes vote on this.

    All I've got is an orange blog, three paragraphs, and the truth.

    by Attorney at Arms on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 12:55:01 PM PST

  •  New Name for the Looney Left: "Americans" nt (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    beltane, J M F, annieli

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 12:55:37 PM PST

  •  In a poll that doesn't even *ask* about tax (13+ / 0-)

    give aways to the rich...only the payroll tax holdiay is opposed?

    It's popular, if you ignore the most unpopular elements.

    Jeebus.

    Bernie Sanders: A Senator who would rather risk losing his voice than his integrity.

    by JesseCW on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 12:55:37 PM PST

  •  Exactly. This whole deal is predicated on the (5+ / 0-)

    idea that the economy/unemployment situation in a year and a half is going to get significantly better the end of '12. The chances of that happening are very, very low.

    As any number of people have pointed out, it was the Obama braintrust that genuinely thought in the first quarter of '09 that U3 was going to be down by this time and that the outlook would be much more positive.

    Instead, we've been jammed between 9.5 & 10% for 23 months with U6 looking like it's only going up in the near future.

  •  Social Security remains the 3rd rail (10+ / 0-)

    of American politics. Everyone outside the beltway bubble of privilege knows damn well that they will die like animals without it.

    Stupidity has a knack of getting its way-Albert Camus

    by beltane on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 12:58:42 PM PST

  •  People care about jobs and their lack (3+ / 0-)

    of availability not tax cuts for plutocrats.

    "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

    by JNEREBEL on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 12:59:07 PM PST

  •  They won't feel tangible improvements (5+ / 0-)
    if the deficit/austerity talk from "bipartisan" Senators and Representatives carry sway when it comes to cutting social programs.

    I work with B2B PAC, and all views and opinions in this account are my own.

    by slinkerwink on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:00:52 PM PST

  •  LMAO! (6+ / 0-)

    As someone pointed out in BrooklynBadBoys diary, they are holding the results to questions 1-13, and 18-39.

    So, really they are reporting that the public was positive for 5 out of 39 questions.

    Sheesh.  Give me goodamn break- this deal sucks.

    "I'm not scared of anyone or anything, Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?" Jack Hawksmoor

    by skyounkin on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:05:28 PM PST

    •  Those are probably unrelated (0+ / 0-)

      they usually roll out results over a few days...
      job approval will be in there....proably DADT and START..etc

      "Senator McCain offered up the oldest Washington stunt in the book - you pass the buck to a commission to study the problem." - Senator Obama, 9-16-2008

      by justmy2 on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:55:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Americans may think the payroll tax holiday (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fladem, Curt Matlock, Jerry056

    affects social security payments.  It does not.  It will be taken out of general funds.

    Jim Manley: "Republicans are making love to Wall Street, while the people on Main Street are getting screwed."

    by Drdemocrat on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:06:27 PM PST

    •  I think it's great that this part is unpopular. (0+ / 0-)

      Makes non-renewal a breeze in two years.

      "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

      by Geekesque on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:18:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's exactly why it is bad. (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      irmaly, nightsweat, CTPatriot, naus, maryabein

      By transfering the funding (even partially) of the Social Security trust from payroll taxes to borrowed money from the general fund, it begins to put Social Security on the list of unfunded liabilities that come under the heading of "Welfare". It begins the transfer of Social Security from a self-funded program with a healthy balance sheet to just another part of the general fund's debt.

      It is a very dangerous step to take and it will be nearly impossible to un-do it once done.

      Suddenly I've changed from being a social liberal/fiscal conservative to sanctimonious purist.

      by RustyCannon on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:24:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Pie in the Sky (3+ / 0-)

      If you believe that Republicans won't take advantage of the fact that Social Security will now be "stealing from the general fund" and therefore proving that Social Security is "driving up the deficit" and needs to be "fixed" ASAP, you're living in a dreamworld of Democratic party propaganda.

      But most dangerous of all, a year from now when the payroll tax holiday is set to expire and parties are gearing up for the 2012 elections, Republicans will scream that Democrats are trying to raise your taxes again. They will couple that with dire warnings about the Obama deficit, which we are now adding $900 Billion to, and demand not only that the payroll tax be extended, but also that cuts to Social Security be made to compensate for it.

      And the Democrats, in an even weaker position than they are now, and facing a still bleak economy, will do what they do best -- cave.

  •  OT: VA Fed. Judge rules mandates... (0+ / 0-)

    ....in HCR law unconstitutional.

    The Fed can't force you to buy health insurance.

    Don't know how this is going to play out...

    I hate to break this to you, but General Electric is not on your side

    by jds1978 on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:06:48 PM PST

  •  good overview (0+ / 0-)

    Thanks for this, especially highlighting unemployment insurance as being very popular and deficits as being largely a non-issue.

    Do you have access to the full poll? WashPo/ABC are only releasing questions 14 - 18a at the moment. I wonder if there is other context that might be interesting?

    It's also interesting what will change over time. This same group of respondents just created the lowest support and highest opposition numbers to the healthcare bill (43 support vs 52 oppose) since they started asking about this last year. Is this another 'deal' that won't age gracefully?

    Ask your Member of Congress what they're doing to put Americans back to work.

    by washunate on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:07:15 PM PST

  •  And they won't. (5+ / 0-)

    Obama is going to have to figure out how to be reelected with 9% unemployment. (Hint: Blame the GOP. Note: This will only work if you oppose the GOP. If you're complicit in their hamstringing of the economy, you will not be thanked.)

    Formerly known as Jyrinx.

    “If I can't dance to it, it's not my revolution.” ― Emma Goldman

    by Code Monkey on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:08:26 PM PST

  •  Those aren't real Americans. Real (0+ / 0-)

    Americans support what dkosers support, damn it.

  •  Doesn't this undercut arguments (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geekesque

    that its extension beyond one year is either inevitable or irresistible. I see a 1-year jolt to the economy before it lapses in 2012.

    •  ? (0+ / 0-)

      this is what was expected.  This changes nothing.

      It's harder to raise taxes after lowering them than to leave them at the same rate, even if they expire automatically.  This far into the debate, I shouldn't need to explain that.

      Candidate Obama was right: When both parties serve the same side in the class war, voters may as well cling to guns and religion. Bitter since 2010.

      by happymisanthropy on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:18:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't think people understand (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Krush

    what the payroll tax cut is.

  •  Those tax cuts are going to be permanent (10+ / 0-)

    before we know it.

    The GOP just won a generational victory on tax policy that is going to effect government for years.

    Now comes the austerity push to deal with the deficit by pushing the pain onto the backs of the poor and middle class. It will be unserious for a Democrat to call for Social Security to be taken off the table. Social Security will still be the third rail of politics, it's just that the Democrats will be the only ones stupid enough to leave their fingerprints on the unpopular policy. The GOP is going to demand the Democrats do their dirty work on deficit hawkery, and then, when the changes get put on the table, turn around and claim they are "defenders" of Social Security come election time, while voting for their policy with the Democrats fingerprints all over it. The Democrats will own the deficits, the bad and unpopular policies, and the GOP will own the tax cuts, and be able to fool the public into thinking that they were the ones defending the safety net, and it will be bewildering to the Democratic Party when it happens.

    In two years, any economic improvement, no matter how modest, will be credited to the retention of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, it will go from being GOP talking points, to the Village meme, to the conventional wisdom that governs our discourse. Any attempt to repeal them will be framed as increasing taxes on "the job creation class" before a Presidential election.

    There is no way a sitting President goes into his campaign for a second term labeled a "tax raiser", so, we punt again on the tax cuts for the rich.

    Which is how they get extended until 2014. Or 2016.

    And any savings from the austerity push will go to... new tax cuts. The poor and middle class get shit, the rich get richer, and the Democrats don't understand how they got fucked.

    And Citizens United cash buries the Democratic Party as the party of tax raisers, Marxism, radical leftwing politics.

    When there is a Republican President, and Third Way is dominating policy discussions in the Democratic Party, the same American people will be shocked when Social Security is destroyed and blame the loss on... the Democratic Party being the wimp and weakling party. The party elites will blame the liberals for the fall-out from Third Wayism and caving to Movement Conservatism.

    The clarion call of the great American Incoherency will ring out:

    "We hate the GOP, but, at least they fight for what they believe in".

  •  Does the unpopularity of the payroll tax (0+ / 0-)

    holiday indicate its expiration in two years won't be as hard to achieve as feared?

    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

    by Geekesque on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:17:35 PM PST

    •  Hard to tell. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      irmaly

      Once people get used to not paying it, it will be desribed as a tax increase and many Dems will faint and fold.

      If I believed Obama would veto any continuance, I'd feel a little better.  But I have little faith in Obama to do so, and he has not even said he would.  We jsut get vague promises of a fight.

      Trumka: "Absolutely Insane" to Extend Tax Cuts for Millionaires

      by TomP on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 02:02:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  63-8 at my last count 4:17 PM ET (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geekesque

    I think Ensign just voted No, and Lieberman Aye ...

  •  There are a lot of things that would be popular. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    emal, CTPatriot, happymisanthropy, DRo

    It does't mean they are a good idea.

  •  These are encouraging results (0+ / 0-)
    The unpopularity of the temporary Social Security payroll tax reduction means that when they raise those payroll taxes back up next year, Democrats will not take political heat for it.  They will be able to portray that tax increase as shoring up Social Security, which is popular.  So if Republicans are counting on this payroll tax reduction as some kind of a stealth attack on Social Security (a theory I have seen bandied about by many on the left lately), it won't work.  
    •  I wonder when the poor and middle class are (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      irmaly, CTPatriot, da888

      going to say ENOUGH and protest/march on Washington, DC?

    •  Just Like Tax Cuts for the Rich, Right? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      irmaly

      After all, Bush's tax cuts for the rich are extremely unpopular and we can see how hard the Democrats are fighting to let them expire -- oh no, wait, that would be the unpopular tax cuts that Democrats are now fighting to extend. Funny how that works. All you need is a few hostages held by Repulicans and suddenly a measure that is unpopular with the public and bad policy becomes something the Dems must support and we must all get behind.

      Do you think there won't be any hostages available to the Republicans when the payroll tax expires, or that they will magically reform themselves into protectors of the common man between now and then?

      •  No, not just like the tax cuts for the rich (0+ / 0-)

        Funny I did not see any Democrats "fighting" to preserve tax cuts for the rich.  Those of us who were observing reality noticed that 53 Senators actually voted in favor of extending the tax cuts for the middle class only, which is the opposite of what you say they were fighting for.  I believe those Senators were all Democrats.  But they needed 60 votes.  Anyone who is making the argument you are making, CTPatriot, needs to explain how you would have gotten the 60 votes.  You can't do it.  

        When the payroll tax break expires, not only Democrats but many Republicans will support letting those rates go back up.  The Republicans don't care about payroll taxes.  They only care about estate taxes and capital gains taxes and the marginal income tax rates on the highest earners.    

  •  As of right now, 64 vote AYE (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DRo

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White

    by zenbassoon on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:21:59 PM PST

  •  without this bill, we'll have poor millionaires (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Nose, CTPatriot

    and if the millionaires are poor then what do you think will happen to us regular folk!?  We'd be screwed!

    On DailyKos nothing is significant unless Obama doesn't do it.

    by glutz78 on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:24:43 PM PST

  •  This will look like a big success in 2 years (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Phil S 33, Matt Z

    I'm "afraid" that people will be better off in 2 years.  Let me explain that - I think the extra after tax income from the payroll tax cut will be a big benefit to everyone with a job.  Unlike making work pay, there is no top stop and everyone benefits.  It will also be much more visible than making work pay was.

    So people will feel better off - and by itself, that's a very good thing.

    The cost won't be nearly as apparant, especially not in only 2 years.  We'll see the initial dismantling of the safety net, environmental protection and social security.  But they won't happen all at once.  Like boiling a frog - if it is gradual enough, people will sit still for it.  Until the end game, and they wonder what the hell happened.

    So if your theory is right that popularity grows with success, this should be very popular in 2 years.  And therefore impossible to kill.  But in 5-10 years we'll be bitching about how the Obama tax plan of 2010 destroyed the economy.

    What a shame - for Democrats, and the country.

    •  I don't think this is going to improve (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      irmaly, CTPatriot

      the economy and I don't think things will be better two years from now.

      •  Mostly, I agree about the economy, but (0+ / 0-)

        I still think that anyone with a job (still 90% employment) will feel better off with a 2% reduction to their payroll tax.  

        Of course, I feel better when I take vicodin, too - but it doesn't fix what's wrong.

        If people vote how they feel, there's no hope of raising taxes in 2 years.  On anyone.  For anything.

        Payroll taxes for social security?  No.

        Estate taxes on the top 1% of estates?  No.

        Upper income taxes to pay down the deficit?  No.

        Value added tax to raise revenue?  Don't make me laugh.

        Tax reform that raises revenue?  Why?

        So spending cuts are the only agenda in 2012.  And forever after.  And in 2011, for that matter - want to bet we get a government shutdown over the debt ceiling until the president caves on some critical spending program?  That'll be a short discussion - shutting down the government hurts people, don't you know?  Cannot stand up to that, can we?

        Sorry.  I'm pissed that we cannot tax people (and corporations) to pay for the government we need - like every other country in the world does.  According to OECD data from  2007, we have almost the lowest effective tax rate (% of GDP) in the developed world.

        Where are the leaders that will say this to the country and make it stick?  Or do we have to be content with bread and circusus until the country dies?

        At least I like the circus.

    •  Ummmm. (0+ / 0-)

      Unlike making work pay, this doesn't is NOT a big benefit to anyone with a job. I guess you didn't see where even with the payroll cut because of the way Making Work Pay was structured those at the bottom of the food chain will actually pay more in taxes - 20,000 for singles and 40,000 for families. Add to that it leaves out those who do not contribute to Social Security and the payroll cut is not as inclusive.

      We are going to have to have differing opinions about the stimulative feel good effect of this on any level for other reasons other then an inaccurate assessment of it. See, I pretty much know that our deal with the deficit essentially split Congress will make sure that nothing that isn't quote unquote paid for makes it through.  You are going to watch the stimulative value of this deal sink like a stone within four to six months as aid to states like the bond program disappears, and there are even more cuts to food programs for kids and food stamps, etc.

  •  they do not understand what the tax cuts will do (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Phil S 33, maryabein

    and why should they. its not like there are any journalists. People who depend on TV news are low information voters.

    must not spam thread.must not spam thread.must not spam thread.must not spam thread.

    by Krush on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:28:43 PM PST

  •  Well Let me Just Call Bullshit On (6+ / 0-)

    "THIS" right out of the gate:

    We knew going into this fight that the tax cut deal would be popular

    I will say in advance that I don't know who the "we" is you're referring to, but I know I have been lectured THOUSANDS of times that "Only twenty-six percent support cutting taxes for the rich!  Why is Obama selling out Seventy-four percent of Americans."  Note: I'm not putting those words in the mouth of the author of this article.  But I've read it dozens (hundreds?) of times.

    This poll is (I think) the first we've seen that acknowledges one legislative reality:  THIS congress is not going to be able to decouple the tax cuts for the upper crust that don't need them from the middle class.

    What I would like to see is a survey that asks the REAL question that people are actually debating here: "Should Democrats block the extension of existing tax cuts for an overwhelming majority of Americans if it means ALSO blocking them for the richest Americans?"

    The "Supporting tax cuts for all" question doesn't go far enough.  It could be getting "No" answers from people who want what Democrats already failed to deliver: Two bills.  It would be interesting to see how that question broke down.

    The PCCC: Dumb People spending Dumb People's Money.

    by TooFolkGR on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:36:56 PM PST

  •  McConnell says deal is part of cutting defict!! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irmaly

    "This bipartisan compromise represents an essential first step in tackling the debt," McConnell said. "[B]ecause in keeping taxes where they are, we are officially cutting off the spigot."

  •  People understand what messing with SS (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CTPatriot, TomP

    means...

    but they are not willing to make the leap that it will have an impact...

    just like they didn't leap with the tax cuts, or the war, or the Patriot Act...and on and on...

    "Senator McCain offered up the oldest Washington stunt in the book - you pass the buck to a commission to study the problem." - Senator Obama, 9-16-2008

    by justmy2 on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:52:01 PM PST

  •  "people don't care about the deficit"... (0+ / 0-)

    ...because they are still living in a dream world, where they think the government will magically make the 14 digit(00,000,000,000,000) deficit monster hanging around their necks go away with the flip of a switch. They don't realize that this debt is secured by a mortgage placed against all the fruits of their LABORS, their children's LABORS, and their children's LABORS for generations to come. Unlike the fiat money the FED conjures right out of thin air every day, these loans that are created by the fractional reserve banksters are as REAL as it gets, real debts for those signing on the dotted lines --not a paper mirage that can be wiped away-- effectively placed a lifetime mortgage on their very LABORS, and therefore, their FREEDOM, which debt can never be discharged as long as the holder of the mortgage lives!

    All of this money PLUS interest, plus COMPOUNDED interest COMPOUNDED daily, plus compounded-COMPOUNDED interest must be paid back IN FULL! Why? Because it is secured by "the full faith and credit of the US government" who has used ALL OF YOUR LABOR held in trust as security and collateral for getting the domestic and foreign loans to pay for those debts!

    Which is just the same as if you took all of your credit cards and invented your own credit card to pay off your debts with that one card you made out of thin air. This is exactly what our government has done! They have forestalled the inevitable collapse by issuing itself its own credit card every time it raises the debt ceiling.

    So this is why I am beside myself in utter astonishment that the people would rather settle for this three-pronged sellout of all of our birthrights, mere crumbs tossed from their tables that does little for ameliorating the big picture, but doubles the national debt in ten years. And the deficit be damned!

    Rather than to face the cold, hard reality that this nation is already bankrupt and it simply cannot afford all three prongs of Obama's/repubs' faustian plan guaranteeing not prosperity but austerity, we would all rather go out with a big bang.

    How much more pain will it, how many more bailouts, performance bonuses, and largesses to the rich elites will it take to finally make us see the light, that we simply cannot long sustain this kind of debt load without collapsing the columns of this whole nation down around all of our heads?

    To some rich elite sitting at home eating his caviar and drinking his champagne in Cannes, France, they would rather make no sacrifice at all and see their nation fall, not realizing just how close they are to getting all their fondest wishes fulfilled. They care very little about the middle class workers on whose backs and their LABOR all of these loans are secured.

    "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

    by ImpeachKingBushII on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 01:55:43 PM PST

  •  Obama's approval ratings (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, COBALT1928

    continue to sink among key base groups. Adding to the McClatchy and Marist polls confirming it, here's the new Gallup:

    Gallup

    Oct 31

    Blacks:95%
    Liberal Democrats:88%
    Liberals: 76%

    Now

    Blacks:84% (-11%)
    Liberal Democrats: 79% (-9%)
    Liberals: 69% (-7%)

    note that Blacks and Liberal Democrats have consistently had the highest approval of Obama for his entire presidency, and both groups basically had the same approval at the end of October as they did 21 months before that at the time of Obama's inauguration.

    Now they've lost 11% and 9% over just 6 weeks.

    Obama's clearly losing his base.

    •  Time will tell. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      irmaly, jeopardydd

      There are two years left. WEe may see an interesting experiement.  Will governing like a Republican lose Dem votes?  And maybe he'll stop doing so.  But I am not hopeful.  Gutting regs for CEOs is next.

      Trumka: "Absolutely Insane" to Extend Tax Cuts for Millionaires

      by TomP on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 02:04:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Obama just lost me (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      irmaly, jeopardydd

      over this so called compromise.

    •  In a month his poll numbers will be back up. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Matt Z, smartdemmg

      Of course his numbers are down. This is an epic shit storm. Like all shit storms, they pass. The public has fickle memories. I seriously doubt anyone but those who frequent sites like this will still be pissed off about the deal in the New Year. Heck, I'm pretty sure most of the people on this site will find something new to focus on. It's just human nature.

      "Th abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power." - William Shakespeare

      by Rockpopple on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 03:29:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Moodys Warns Cut US Rating If Tax Bill passes (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irmaly, naus, RDJRDJ
    •  An excerpt from your link (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      naus
      A negative outlook would indicate that the rating may be more likely to be cut from the top Aaa rating over the following 12 to 18 months. The United States currently has a stable outlook, indicating a rating change is not anticipated over this time frame.

      Moody's estimates the cost of the funding the proposed tax bill, along with unemployment benefits and other policy measures, may be between $700 and $900 billion, which will raise the ratio of government debt to GDP to 72 to 73 percent, depending on the effects on nominal economic growth.

      This means that the government's debt relative to revenues will decline much more slowly over the coming two years, to just under 400 percent from 420 percent at the end of fiscal year 2010.

      "This is a very high ratio compared with both history and other highly rated sovereigns," Moody's said,

      "Whenever a fellow tells me he's bipartisan, I know he's going to vote against me."-- Harry S. Truman

      by irmaly on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 02:17:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I have a very hard time believing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irmaly

    most Americans like the idea of people getting super-rich because they inherited multi-millions from their super-rich parents.  I think most people have no idea who benefits from the estate tax and who doesn't.

  •  "Corporatist" Polls Don't Ask the Right Questions (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    COBALT1928

    It's already been shown that people don't "vote" against the rich; but, if you put a pie chart of the USA wealth distribution in front of them, they change their minds...

    People need to see the tradeoffs.  

    "Who do you think should pay for the failed Bush years?"

    "If you could have a tax cut, without having to add to the interest that you must pay on the deficit each year, would you?"

    "Do you agree that tax cuts without spending cuts reduce the size of government?"

    "Do you agree: tax cuts for the very wealthy should be contingent on economic recovery or on spending cuts."

    etc.

    The rest of these polls are just 'commitment bias'.

  •  We can't afford another obama term. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    naus, trinite

    We need someone to primary obama. I won't vote for this traitor again. If no one comes forward, i will sit out 2012, let the republicans win and maybe we will get some real hope and change then.

  •  I've given up hope. HCR is going to be repealed (0+ / 0-)

    when Obama loses his reelection in 2012 and he will with this tax cut.

    It will be like a dream, where you wake up and realize it's still 2003.

  •  Charge it! (0+ / 0-)

    That's mantra of the American people at this point in history - they want their tax cuts, they want their services, but they don't want to pay for any of it.

    Out here in California, we are always being told how we're the leading edge - whatever trends start here, eventually gets absorbed into the rest of country 3 or 4 years later.  Well, guess what America - we've got a trend for you - its called bankruptcy.  Take a look at the results of years of Republican intransigence around ever raising taxes, combined with a public (and their enablers on BOTH sides of the aisle) that want more and more stuff from government.  Eventually, the one-off accounting tricks and bond issuances (aka the state's credit card) don't work anymore.

    And what you are left with is a crisis leading to the inevitable cutting of core services - and usually services to those without the money or power to fight back - there is serious talk in California about ending welfare completely, ending Medicaid, HUGE cuts to public education, etc.  Which pleases the Republicans just fine.

    This is what this tax deal sets us up for - borrowing more money from the Chinese to fund tax cuts the Republicans will never let expire, leading to the inevitable slashing of Social Security, Medicare, etc.

    All because no one has the guts to just say NO to the GOP.

    Now is not the time for a circular firing squad when the other side is teabagging you in the face.

    by goblue72 on Mon Dec 13, 2010 at 04:13:49 PM PST

  •  Any Democrat That Votes For This Tax Bill With (0+ / 0-)

    the Payroll Tax Holiday should be primaried.  I will not support any democrat that votes for this tax bill with the payroll tax holiday in it.  Democrats should take heed.

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