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There are Democrats I expect to be assholes. I never thought Jon Tester would be among them.

Anybody who votes to punish innocent kids is an asshole. Plain and simple. And while I expect it from Democrats like Ben Nelson and C-Street denizen Mark Pryor, I honestly thought Jon Tester was different. I was wrong. I am now embarrassed that I worked so hard to help get him elected in 2006. I feel personally betrayed.

Not only will I do absolutely nothing to help his reelection bid, but I will take every opportunity I get to remind people that he is so morally bankrupt that he'll try to score political points off the backs of innocent kids who want to go to college or serve their country in the military.

To me, he is the Blanche Lincoln of 2012 -- the Democrat I will most be happy to see go down in defeat. And he will. Nothing guarantees a Republican victory more than trying to pretend to be one of them.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:36 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Yep. (18+ / 0-)

    Count me "Another Former Donor Supporting A Primary Against Tester."

    "Be just and good." John Adams to Thomas Jefferson

    by ogre on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:38:13 AM PST

    •  It has to be a candidate that can win in (15+ / 0-)

      Montana. That probably means someone who supports clean coal. Can you handle that? And is pro-gun. Can you deal with that? Probably anti-choice or at least won't actively be pro-choice. Does that get your knickers in a twist? Running the Montana version of Alan Grayson is going to result in one thing, the Teabagger from Montana -- you betcha. Reality is a bitter pill to swallow.

      I have a purpose in life, I am my cat's doorman.

      by ontheleftcoast on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:50:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And how do you convert .. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Goldfish, ontheleftcoast

        hearts and minds by being GOP-lite? .. I thought Montana had a strong libertarian strain?

      •  You're misreading the electorate (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MJB, Goldfish, cville townie, yesdevkmem

        by falling into the frame the machine political "operatives" feed you.

        The vast majority of america is pro-gun. Only a minority of big city folks are antigun. The issue is dead. Toast. The VAST majority of america is prochoice (i'm not at least according to the naral etc extremists). Clean coal is just an attempt at a handout.. its never going to fly.

        If democrats would stop trying to be weasels and actually be proud of who we are we'd win every election. Lets run a Democrat in Montana. The whole faux-republican thing apparently isnt working.

        Voters will choose a person who fights a losing battle for his principles over one who fights winning battles against them every time.

        by cdreid on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:13:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  And you just proved my point (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          moira977, cville townie, flhiii88

          What IS a Democrat? Tester is by your definition. He just failed on the Latino issue. So are you willing to toss him under the bus? And if you are on that issue some here will be ready to toss your candidate under a bus for their reason. What I was pointing out is no Democrat that we could elect in Montana is going to be perfect. There is no Bernie Sanders in Helena or Alan Grayson or Butte. I say we work to nudge Tester into being a better Democrat or we're likely to fail on the more part.

          I have a purpose in life, I am my cat's doorman.

          by ontheleftcoast on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:30:58 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Bernie Sanders (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ogre

            would win huge in montana. HUGE. Ever wonder why McCain was so powerful? People were seriously talking about a Kerry/McCain ticket. And theyd have won Huge.
            McCain used to be honest and principled. He was an economic conservative/socially liberal/extremely libertarian politician. A country club republican with very strong libertarian principles. Noone could touch him because democrats respected his honesty and his libertarian tendencies while republicans accepted those things so long as he was a plutocrat.

            And selling out American Kids for political points tells me you put your self interest above morality, principle, fairness.... disgusting. This isnt "immigration" reform. It is righting a historic wrong on the level of internment camps.

            Voters will choose a person who fights a losing battle for his principles over one who fights winning battles against them every time.

            by cdreid on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:39:35 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Bernie Sanders would win big in MT? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ontheleftcoast, James Allen, flhiii88

              Pass me whatever you're smoking because it sounds like good shit!

              "Valerie, why am I getting all these emails calling me a classless boor?"

              by TLS66 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:43:03 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Try listening to Bernie Sanders talk sometime (5+ / 0-)

                instead of just looking at his scores on political scoreboards.

                Ive heard extreme far right wingnuts call him on the radio and within 10 minutes the guy not only respected sanders but had been moved to his side. Think about Bernie is that he isnt a kneejerk liberal. He listens to the wingnut and addresses the actual issues tha bother the wingnut. And he's Honest about it and not a coward. Wins them over every time.

                Voters will choose a person who fights a losing battle for his principles over one who fights winning battles against them every time.

                by cdreid on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:03:23 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  As A Montanan... (4+ / 0-)

                Believe it or not, there are a lot of conservative people here (many of them close friends and family!) who would vote for Bernie, not necessarily because they agreed with his positions, but they really do respect the hell out of someone who stands up for what he believes and doesn't act like a weasel.
                  (Bear in mind that Obama almost won Montana in 2008.)
                  And liberal Montanans (and we are a minority, but not a miniscule one, believe it or not) would have a massive joy-gasm if Bernie were our Senator.  Goes without saying.

                "The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea."--Isak Dineson

                by Mongo DeNizen on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:12:58 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  So do you know who the Montanan (0+ / 0-)

                  Bernie Sanders might be? If there is one I'd love to see what could be done in getting him to replace Tester. If Montanans had a real chance at replacing him with someone better, then yes, you've got to take a chance. But if it's going to turn into a 20 point blow-out for a teabagger? How much pain do you want to inflict on the country? Tester or Teabagger? Sometimes the less of two weasels is all we can do in the near term. Building a national movement from the ground up is the only chance we have against the top down flow of cash. But it's not going to change in 2012, or even 2020. But it would eventually change.

                  I have a purpose in life, I am my cat's doorman.

                  by ontheleftcoast on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 02:48:56 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Uh, no (0+ / 0-)

                Barack Obama for President '08

                by v2aggie2 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 06:29:44 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Whiskey Tango Foxtrot (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ogre, cville townie, Desert Scientist

              I was disgusted by Tester's vote. You think a Libertarian candidate could win in Montana? I won't stop you but remember where many Libertarians wind up. As Thom Hartman says, "Libertarians are just Republicans who want to smoke dope." I don't believe any Libertarian would be better than Tester. I believe we'd be better off moving Tester to the left. You'd be willing to lose the seat to the Montana version of Pat Tooney. Who's more willing to put their self-interest ahead of anything else?

              I have a purpose in life, I am my cat's doorman.

              by ontheleftcoast on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:48:25 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Um (0+ / 0-)

                those arent libertarians they're republicans who created a Faux party. Libertarianism has a history going back to the founding of the nation. A guy named Jefferson pretty much invented the philosophy. Dont let scumbags practicing word games con you. Libertarianism.. the real thing.. has been at the heart of american leftism since the nation began.

                And - not actually referring to tester- but id rather have a real rethug than a faux democrat in office any day. Liebermans(plural) dont empower us they weaken us and brand Progressives as nothing but sellouts.

                Voters will choose a person who fights a losing battle for his principles over one who fights winning battles against them every time.

                by cdreid on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:06:44 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  And just about nobody who calls themselves (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  cdreid, ontheleftcoast

                  Libertarian today and is active in politics is fully in the Jeffersonian tradition. The racist Rand Paul types aren't, the ridiculous Silicon Valley crowd who think technology will magically solve everything in the world aren't, and the Koch-brothers-funded plutocrat ass-lickers sure as hell aren't. Who does that leave?

                  Fly the American flag; burn the Gadsden snake flag. It's your patriotic duty.

                  by cville townie on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 01:45:19 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  McCain was never honest and principled. (4+ / 0-)

              That's a total Village myth.

              He's always been a small-minded, self-serving conservative crank, whose "independence" has largely been based on a willingness to hold grudges against people on his own side of the aisle.

              And on guns: the real story here has been the NRA's recent success in defining the debate as "pro-gun" vs. "anti-gun."  

              In fact, Americans until very recently favored sensible gun-control legislation.  You don't need to be "anti-gun" to support such measures.  

              This was a winnable debate--especially in the context of perennial law-and-order concerns--that those of us on my side of the gun fence have lost for the moment. But we could have won it and we can win it still.

              "Electing More and Better Democrats" got us a renewal of Bush's economic policies. It's time to try something else.

              by GreenSooner on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:52:35 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Ive watched McCain for 30 years (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ogre, cville townie

                This "mccain was always dishonest! and was never a real war hero" is recent democratic mythology. Mccain didnt cave until he was crushed by bush. Just as bush's father was a respectable republican until Reagan pretty much destroyed him.

                The NRA didnt do shit. They're an insignificant organisation with some cash to toss to congress. It was the antigun extremists who went too far in their irrational racist fear of guns. They put out so many lies that HCI had to rename itself. They never had a problem with white uppermiddle class people having guns.. only with blacks, hispanics and rednecks having guns. They branded gunowners across america as evil murdering terrorists.

                Those on your side of the fence dont have logic to back you up and (im not talking about you) are far far far too infested with racists and classists. Not all of us live in L.A. and not all of us who do live in downtown L.A think its cool to "keep guns out of the hands of the n*ggers". And not all of those who live in downtown L.A. think its cool for only criminals and cops who respond hours later if youre not in an uppermiddleclass white neighborhood to have guns.

                The vast majority of americans are not only against you they think youre controlling nutjobs. I think the nationwide, locally and nationally based revolt against the idiocy has pretty much made that clear. As well as a supreme court ruling that put the nail in the coffin.

                Voters will choose a person who fights a losing battle for his principles over one who fights winning battles against them every time.

                by cdreid on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:13:52 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Senator Sanders would NOT win in MT (0+ / 0-)

              they call any dem a socialist up here- although they would of course benefit from the socialist -type policies and stay away from their SS and Medicare.

              "You can't change someone's mind if they don't have one." - Bill Maher

              by wildlife advocate on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:44:12 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Those are kneejerk emotion responses (0+ / 0-)

                based on who those people see in their minds as an enemy.

                An experiment for you (I did this a while back) assuming youre very knowledgeable of politics. Talk to a wingnut (nonracist version because they just deserve to be put down).

                Ignore the insults attacks on Obama blabla and keyword dogwhistles. Ignore the talking points. Ask him what we should do exactly to make things better. What pisses him off about the government. Etc etc. Heres what you'll find:

                a: He's angry at wall street outsourcing and immigration killing his job and pay prospects.
                b: He's really sick of everyone telling him what to do in every aspect of his life. From zoning boards to the more ridiculous regulations governing his industry to telling him what to think. The "fringe" and their need to control him.
                c: He's sick of rich people being above the law.
                d: he's sick of being told hes evil for being male being white being black being whatever.
                e: He's tired of being screwed by credit card companies, banks etc  etc and the slimeballs who can call him up, insult him and threaten to take his stuff even if he's  works hard and pays his bills.
                f: hes sick of ivy leaguers telling him he's a dumb redneck serf and should just suck it up as his "betters" will do the thinking for him.

                And others. The reality:
                A: it is progressives who want that shit stopped. ALL of it. But the msm wont tell him and kneejerk "you're a racist" lefties dont help.
                B: Grassroots progressives and jeffersonian liberals dream of this. People with power feel the urge to misuse that power.
                C: Progressives believe in the rule of law. Conservatives believe might(wealth) makes right. Progressives are all in favor of jailing those on OUR side who are corrupt.
                d:Tell me you havent felt  this and are sick of it too.
                E:PURE leftist position. The right is owned by those credit card companies. Only the dlc traitors have convinced americans we arent with them.
                F: Arent you??

                Here is a Fact :by a margin of 70%ish to 30%ish americans are onboard with progressive positions.
                But they dont know it. They dont know it because they never hear our positions. Because we all talk in catchphrases and talking points. Because we dont listen when "the enemy" is expressing pain to find and help him identify the CAUSE of his pain.

                It was the individualism in states like MT that started this nation and gave us the best parts of it. Only the need of some big city liberals who speak in generalities and think a montana farmer should live under rules designed for downtown LA have made them our enemies. If we TAlked to them (like Sanders does) the nonracist nonscum would come to our side.

                Voters will choose a person who fights a losing battle for his principles over one who fights winning battles against them every time.

                by cdreid on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 04:15:15 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  As an Indian-American (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  cdreid

                  who lived in Montana for 7 years, Bernie Sanders would have no chance of winning there.  It's not that open-minded and can be racist

                  Barack Obama for President '08

                  by v2aggie2 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 06:31:14 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Every state can (0+ / 0-)

                    And ... well we all pretty much fuck you. I mean youre not white/upper class/redneck none of t he cough good stuff. Visit chigago or NYC sometime if you wanna see real racism.

                    Voters will choose a person who fights a losing battle for his principles over one who fights winning battles against them every time.

                    by cdreid on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 06:38:41 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  well, I can say (0+ / 0-)

                      I lived in a place with racism, and experienced racism.

                      I was in a class of 600 with 4 minorities.
                      Not the best position to be.
                      There are good people as well, but it's hard not feel isolated.

                      And yes, it was real racism.

                      Barack Obama for President '08

                      by v2aggie2 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 07:33:41 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Too much of that shit around (0+ / 0-)

                        too many losers with low self esteeem think that takin it out on societies victims will make it better. You even hear it on dailykos in incredibly couched terms. Im glad im not black or hispanic. Id be in prison or  dead.

                        Voters will choose a person who fights a losing battle for his principles over one who fights winning battles against them every time.

                        by cdreid on Sun Dec 19, 2010 at 12:46:15 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  BTW you ever find it ironic (0+ / 0-)

                    us white folks spend $$$$ every month to look like you do then try to fuck up your life?

                    Voters will choose a person who fights a losing battle for his principles over one who fights winning battles against them every time.

                    by cdreid on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 06:39:25 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

          •  How about we get (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ogre, MJB, ontheleftcoast

            Someone just like Tester, except not a racist?

            The Angries are back

            by Goldfish on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:55:39 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's probably the best we could do (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Goldfish, cville townie

              It might also be possible to fix his racism. There is precendence for that in other politicians. I don't really know which is easier or better. But I'm saying we better be damn sure about our choice because a Montana teabagger is the likely result of choosing incorrectly.

              I have a purpose in life, I am my cat's doorman.

              by ontheleftcoast on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:00:05 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not willing to donate to him. (0+ / 0-)

            As far as I'm concerned, he lost me. And my wallet.

            And the idea that there isn't better is just assertion.

            Being nuancedly prochoice flies in most areas. I don't give a damn about pro-2nd-Amendment stands (and neither does the NRA, really--they're Democrat hostile even when the Democrat is pro-gun), and I think that most folks get the idea of some sane and reasonable limitations that are designed to keep cop-killer bullets secure, and arms from flowing to criminals and over the border into Mexico, etc.

            Clean coal? You get me clean coal that's CO2 neutral, and doesn't leave mountains of toxic ash, and I'm fine with it. And I believe that a Democrat could campaign that way. Lose coal money, sure. But also gain the grudging tolerance--even support--of people who are concerned (as most Westerners are) about the state of the environment.

            Yes, we could do better than Tester. Who that is, I don't know. But if we don't stand up and make it clear that we want better Democrats, we'll be getting--and supporting--plenty of Blue Dogs who'll throw us under the bus on the majority of important legislation.

            "Be just and good." John Adams to Thomas Jefferson

            by ogre on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 01:51:41 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  your 40 year old conventional "wisdom" means (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ogre

        that there is not an alternative to sell outs and to political imcompetents -

        great DLC-ish thinking.

        rmm.

        Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

        by seabos84 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:23:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, there are alternatives (0+ / 0-)

          But it's going to probably take 40 years to make it happen. Short term, purity will get us killed. Politically and maybe literally. It's taken the conservative movement decades to get where it is today. You want to change that then you'll need decades to undo the damage. Or you opt for the "burn, baby, burn" approach and hope like hell you don't get an even more fascist police state to replace it. Then you won't even be able to say, "rmm".

          I have a purpose in life, I am my cat's doorman.

          by ontheleftcoast on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 02:41:49 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  interesting - "purity" or sell outism. it has (0+ / 0-)

            taken the fascists 40 years cuz EVERY f'king thing they do is a lie to cover stealing of the rich pig scum 1% at the top - stealing from the bottom 90%++ of us.  

            since our side seems capable of hiring only 3 kinds of politicians:

            1. the noblerer gooderer selflesser smarterer relatively affluent dillitants who are also completely politically incompetent,
            1. the sell outs,
            1. those who are some combination of #1 and #2,

            it hasn't been possible to bury the advocates of work till you drop in the traces because our "leaders" ain't worth a fuck.

            rmm.

            Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

            by seabos84 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 07:07:42 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Senator Tester is pro-choice..I worked on (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cville townie, ontheleftcoast

        his 2006 campaign and I know that he is a good person - maybe not quite as liberal as we'd all like, but not bad. I have disagreed with some of his votes, but I believe he was with us on a public option as he knows Montanans have difficulty affording health care.

        The problem is that our state is getting redder, not blue-er and I think he sees the political reality. I am not trying to justify his no on cloture for the Dream Act, but the reality is that most of Montana is ultra-conservative...think miltias of the 90's - well they're back.

        In my county alone, ALL the dems were swept out in a Republican takeover - as well as the state. We have Republican state houses now and that is very scary.

        I don't know what I'll do in 2012, but I can guarantee you that his opponent will be bat-shit crazy and will probably win unless things get a whole lot better fast.    

        "You can't change someone's mind if they don't have one." - Bill Maher

        by wildlife advocate on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:39:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  As an Indian-American who lived in Montana (0+ / 0-)

          for 7 years, I can tell you it's not an easy place to be a minority.  Maybe Tester felt that pressure from the bigoted crowd and succumbed to it

          Barack Obama for President '08

          by v2aggie2 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 06:33:17 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Who do you have on the bench that can (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cdreid

      mount a viable primary challenge? Find someone, and I'll move to Montana to work for his/her campaign. (As a volunteer only.)

      Religion: Treat it like your penis. Don't show it off in public, and don't shove it down your children's throats. (-9.00,-8.41)

      by MinistryOfLove on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:58:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Problem is .. (4+ / 0-)

        we don't have much of a bench anywhere .. that's the problem

        •  Because it is more important (3+ / 0-)

          to our party that the upperclass and the politically connected control the party than it is to get democratic principles enacted. THAT has to change. The grassroots needs to take over the party. The gop did it. Theres no reason we cant.

          Voters will choose a person who fights a losing battle for his principles over one who fights winning battles against them every time.

          by cdreid on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:15:05 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Don't overestimate how much the grassroots... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cdreid, cville townie

            ...of the GOP took that party over.

            Candidates like Huckabee, who the grassroots love but who piss off the Norquists due to their less than 100% objection to taxation, still get nowhere.

            But your right: at least the Republican grassroots have tried to take that party over.

            Since the early 1970s, the Democratic grassroots have been sitting on their haunches more times than not.

            "Electing More and Better Democrats" got us a renewal of Bush's economic policies. It's time to try something else.

            by GreenSooner on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:54:33 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Short term viewpoint (0+ / 0-)

              Im not talking about the tea part. That is a corporate funded scam. Even though DK regularly both acknowledges that and gives the whackery legitimacy at the same time.

              Im talking about hte far right wing takeover of the gop which began with Jesse Helms calling for a right wing buyout of the media (worked out pretty well for them) as well as a bottom up takeover of the gop. The far right/evangelicals began at the dogcatcher/schoolboard level with funding from the Coors family etc and took it over lock stock and barrel.

              The vast right wing conspiracy worked. Theyre even in Our party now.

              Voters will choose a person who fights a losing battle for his principles over one who fights winning battles against them every time.

              by cdreid on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:18:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  As I said, it has and it hasn't. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                cdreid

                Evangelicals have claerly defined the GOP's social agenda. But on the very rare occasions when Evangelicals' desires disagree with the economic wishes of the wealthy in the party, the wealthy always win (which is why Huckabee is such an interesting case).

                "Electing More and Better Democrats" got us a renewal of Bush's economic policies. It's time to try something else.

                by GreenSooner on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:28:30 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Okay, who in your state has any name (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ontheleftcoast

          recognition? State treasurer? Big town mayor? who gets their name mentioned in your little town newspapers?

          I've worked campaigns, mostly primaries, mostly losers, since 1974. Running a loser is not a bad deal. You want to play a long term 50-state strategy.

          If you haven't been, may I suggest a DFM Campaign Academy for you and 40-50 of your closest friends whom you haven't met yet. No kidding, this is everything I had to learn the hard way in a weekend and you get a nifty workbook with enough good stuff so you can start way ahead of where I had to start from.

          Request a training. It's a long way to Salt Lake City, or the Washington trainings for you, plus it would be better for us to have more than just one person in Montana. I'll make calls to help you get enough people for a training, hell, I can drive from California to Montana, I'll volunteer to do what needs to be done. It's worth it to me to invest in finding someone to primary Tester.

          Religion: Treat it like your penis. Don't show it off in public, and don't shove it down your children's throats. (-9.00,-8.41)

          by MinistryOfLove on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:28:53 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Righteous rant, Markos (25+ / 0-)

    When I heard the roll call "Mr. Tester, No", I yelled at the TV.

    What a dick.

    GOP Talking Points Hotline: 1-800-WHINE

    by Auntie Neo Kawn on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:38:38 AM PST

  •  Sadly there are many candidates (6+ / 0-)

    for "Democrat I wish to see go down in 2012". With 22 of ours up and 11 of theres I don't know if it's the year to do it.

    I have a purpose in life, I am my cat's doorman.

    by ontheleftcoast on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:38:39 AM PST

    •  Honestly... (5+ / 0-)

      ...the fact that people who aren't millionaires or billionaires keep voting for Republican'ts in significant numbers is proof that Americans just haven't suffered enough for their stupidity.  It's getting to the point where I hope Republican'ts win back the Senate in 2012, and President Palin is innaugurated in January 2013.  (The people who are suffering now will continue to suffer no matter who is in charge.  Obama just proved that with his giveaway to millionaires and billionaires, while throwing half a bone to the unemployed, whom he ALLOWED to be taken hostage.)  Then they can complete their destruction of the formerly United States of America and own it outright, instead of hiding behind enablers like Tester, Nelson, and Obama and their insane "bipartisanship"...

      •  I'm not in the (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ceebee7, mkor7, Govinda

        "It has to burn down before it can be fixed" camp. But I get what you're saying. I could be wrong, but I hope I'm not and that gradualism can be successful. We're looking at the result of 60 years of conservative gradualism. The slow take over of our system when the bastards realized the middle class that grew out of FDR's policies weren't going to be easy to control pawns. So they started chipping away little by little. Sure, we've had some progress, quite good ones, during that time. Civil rights, EPA. But the big thing, control, has eluded us. And largely because the right has been masterful at driving wedges into the middle class (abortion, gay rights, etc.) that has caused "We the People" to become so bitterly divided we're willing to cut off our own noses to spite our faces. All of that was a long-winded way to say that gradualism works. You and I just might not be around to see the results.

        I have a purpose in life, I am my cat's doorman.

        by ontheleftcoast on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:00:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for saying in one (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ontheleftcoast

          paragraph what I always fumble around trying to say in 4-5 pages...  very accurate, very concise.

          Kick apart the structures - Seth

          by ceebee7 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:08:57 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, but it still is too long to be (0+ / 0-)

            a witty sig that would be seen by more people and could accurately convey the message. The shame of that is the right has always had easier time selling their messages. It might be a case of simple messages work on simple minds. We need a couple of pages, or at least a paragraph, to get our point across.

            Look at the difference in response to a story on RedState to those here. On wingnut blogs the story is full of "You said it!", "Kill the ****!", or "God Bless America!" responses. Here you're often presented with near diary responses. As Stephen Colbert says, they think with their gut.

            I have a purpose in life, I am my cat's doorman.

            by ontheleftcoast on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:21:15 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  When we offer them (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        divineorder

        honest candidate, leaders, who will stand up they'll vote for us again.

        People would rather have a Reagan who opposes everything they believe in than a Carter/Obama who says the right words and surrenders every battle. (Pre-surrenders in Obamas case).

        Voters will choose a person who fights a losing battle for his principles over one who fights winning battles against them every time.

        by cdreid on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:16:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  something about 11 dimensional chess... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Goldfish, esquimaux, cville townie

        ...I've played traditional chess against internationally-ranked players for years. But I always knew it was only a game and when I make the wrong move and lose I would always live to play again another day. This 11-dimensional chess game that Obama likes to play, may be a game of wits to him, but when he makes the wrong move there's millions of lives at stake that stand to lose BIG as he so cavalierly moves their pawn pieces across his board. I don't think he's my intellectual equal-or for that matter, the equal of many of my peers and kossacks I've known for years here. Maybe that's why I don't respect him. That and the fact he's not a worthy opponent who has the situtational or self-awareness to grasp, that just because he's elected potus doesn't give him- or anybody who he appoints the right to play games with other people's lives.

        I thought I knew the man once. Somebody changed. It wasn't me. He needs to get a grip that the repubs are not his pals, but are out to thoroughly destroy him, and get off his high horse (that he's this great 11-dimensional chess player- HE'S NOT!)-before somebody like Palin or Mittens knocks him off of it!

        "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

        by ImpeachKingBushII on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:20:57 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I've been in a similar state of mind (0+ / 0-)

        President Palin would be an unmitigated disaster and would likely end up being impeached and removed even if the Republicans controlled both chambers of Congress.

        Given the disturbing ascent of presidential power under Bush and now under Obama, this would be the absolute best thing that could happen to the American presidency, not to mention the long term damage it would do to Republican ideology.

        The Angries are back

        by Goldfish on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:00:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  You would have to add Patrick Murphy to that list (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dharmafarmer, Nulwee, devis1, AnnieR

    too. Sadly.

    Ok, so I read the polls.

    by andgarden on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:39:18 AM PST

  •  Tester's vote is indeed disappointing (17+ / 0-)

    And while I have no problem supporting a primary challenger, I can't see letting him go down to a Republican in a year when it is already going to be difficult to maintain our majority.

  •  And to think... (13+ / 0-)

    that Tester is a Kossack!  I regret ever having given him donations.  He's been beyond disappointing.

  •  Or he could switch like Lieberman (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MJB, ontheleftcoast, AnnieR
    Maybe just let nature run its course on a purple dog like Tester. I fell for him too. Seemed like a good guy.
    •  When you get down to it (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      esquimaux, devis1, beanbagz

      Senators like this going Independent really isn't a switch, rather an honest statement of who they serve: themselves. I will make an exception for Senator Sanders on this, he's just stuck not being able to run on the Socialist ticket...

      I have a purpose in life, I am my cat's doorman.

      by ontheleftcoast on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:43:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Pryor, Ben Nelson, Baucus, Hagen, Tester... (7+ / 0-)

    and Manchin didn't even show up for work today.

    Either that or he's too much of a chikenshit to even vote.

    "An exact science is one that admits loss" -- Genesis P-Orridge

    by jethrock on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:40:04 AM PST

  •  90% of Senate Dems voted for DREAM, 7% GOP did (24+ / 0-)

    i understand the anger but I think it's pretty clear who the real enemies are here. and of course the fact that 55 isn't a majority.

  •  politics. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AnnieR

    goddamit.

    no honor amongst thieves, including politicians.

    witness the GOPRANOS.. rethugs: "If they fuck with me or Shaha, I have enough on them to fuck them too." -Paul Wolfowitz, quoted by the UK's Guardian

    by change the Be on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:42:10 AM PST

  •  Amazing (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MJB, esquimaux, AnnieR

    that he won his seat by being a forceful advocate of Democratic principles, and now he thinks that being a pandering R-lite is gonna get him elected.  Of course, only time will tell, but he ain't getting any of my money when he comes begging for it.

  •  I think Daily Kos (17+ / 0-)

    should be a little more, um, choosy about which Democrats they want to promote heavily on this site during election years.  Tester's not the first or only one that I've looked back and wondered what the hell y'all were thinking when you asked us to donate to their campaigns.

    Obama, 2008: "Yes We Can!"
    Obama, 2010: "No, I Won't!"

    by Mehitabel9 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:42:53 AM PST

  •  Kos, I sympathize. But "More and better Dems" has (28+ / 0-)

    to start with states like Montana. My bet is that Montana is better off with Tester than some Teabagger a$$hat. And in Montana, make no mistake, this will be your only choice.

    Tester SHOULD hear long and hard from those that supported him in his last election, and demand better. But throwing the baby out with the bathwater doesn't work.

  •  I just don't understand this vote. (19+ / 0-)

    The DREAM act is a no brainer. It adds jobs to our economy by getting these youths into the system to attend our universities, join our military, and become employed in our work force. It puts tens of thousands on a legal path to citizenship and gives them, finally, a feeling of inclusion in our society.

    Why does ANY Democrat vote no on this? I get why Republicans do--we all get what their goals are for the next two years. But why would a Democrat vote against such a bill?

    I just don't get it. And I say this as someone who worked to get Tester into office.

    They're like the Inspector Clouseaus' of the blogging world.

    by Pager on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:43:24 AM PST

    •  And he has a chance at redemption (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mango

      this afternoon if he votes to repeal DADT. He damn well better.

      They're like the Inspector Clouseaus' of the blogging world.

      by Pager on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:51:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Everyone has their reason... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pager, Govinda, James Allen

      and we will never get 100% liberal compliance with every Democrat on every issue...

      Obama - Change I still believe in

      by dvogel001 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:57:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Very high redneck/Latino ratio in places (0+ / 0-)

      like Montana.

      "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

      by Geekesque on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:19:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  How does it add jobs? (0+ / 0-)

      It seems that it would take away jobs from legal Americans.

      Look, this DREAM thing is still a form of amnesty, although it is a quite palatable form since it is for folks who did not consent to BREAKING U.S .IMMIGRATION LAW.  I can see why an otherwise relatively progressive pol could take the attitude that it is not a good bill.  OTOH, I can see a relatively anti-immigrant pol saying that it is a good bill.

      I can understand why Kos personally hates Democrats who aren't 100% La Raza followers.  He is from an ethnic group that has folks with such immigration irregularities.  He should understand that especially in a tough job market and high deficit era, that Ronald Reagan type of immigration solutions are not popular.  Of course, with that said, immigration is the Democrat's version of Roe vs Wade - i.e., something that will never be fixed (i.e., the social conservatives want to get it overturned), but can be used to keep a certain voter fixed to the party.

  •  Hagan is an assholette (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DoubleBonus, bear83

    Looking forward to a primary challange.

    "In Japan, American occupation forces quickly became 50,000 friends. In Iraq, they would quickly become 50,000 terrorist targets. " James Webb, Sep 02

    by ParaHammer on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:43:42 AM PST

  •  I am slowly sliding (8+ / 0-)

    into the "let it burn" camp.

    If there are not enough progressive or liberal voters in the US to do what is right, maybe we have to let history teach them the hard way.

    I will probably die in the fire too but my grandchildren may get a chance at a better life.

    I have been fighting a losing battle too long.

    The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

    by NCrefugee on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:43:47 AM PST

    •  dead wrong, sorry... (4+ / 0-)

      The whole "It has to get worse before it gets better" meme has to go. If it gets worse, it either stays bad or gets even worser, and with the existing pressures on the infrastructure and environment, we cannot afford a collapse.

      •  Actually, NC refugee is right, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        divineorder

        for the wrong reason. It's not about teaching the people a lesson - it should be about teaching the politicians a lesson.

        We have to break the cycle of voting for the lesser of two evils. As long as we continue to elect people who just bring varying flavors of shit to the table, we're going to continue getting fed shit.

        Henceforth, I'm voting my conscience. If others do as well, and it leads to Republican majorities for a few cycles, so be it. I have children, and they will some day have children. For their sakes, it's time to stop doing what hasn't been working. The only way to change the system, at least in the electoral sphere, is to start demanding real accountability.

        Please do not disabuse me of my belief in the President's essential cluelessness. The alternative is too horrifying.

        by WisePiper on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:07:39 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  It is going to get worse, unfortunately (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wsexson

        The WHOLE GOP/Plutonmy plan and the looming 'auterity' are exactly that - making life NEEDLESSLY worse for Americans WHILE expecting them to just lay there and take it like they always do.

        And they probably will.

        Americans are so damned weak.

        America legalized torture before they legalized marijuana.
        Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!

        by xxdr zombiexx on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:08:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  me, too, but perhaps it's more true to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      divineorder

      point out that 'let it burn' will really just be us little people burning.

      there's probably only a small number of people on this site that have 100s of thousand$ or even 7 figures in their money market/bonds/bank accounts.

      the rest of us are one layoff away from being broke and homeless. and since I was just homeless two years ago(couldn't afford rent, was bumming couches and food from friends in LA), I don't really want it to happen to me again.

      remember: the top 3$ in usa who hold the wealth include both 'liberals' and conservatives. Some of those we fight are our own. The democrat votes in the senate weren't there for the middle class tax cut because there are plenty of democratic senators beholden to plutocracy.

      witness the GOPRANOS.. rethugs: "If they fuck with me or Shaha, I have enough on them to fuck them too." -Paul Wolfowitz, quoted by the UK's Guardian

      by change the Be on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:52:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  worse than Lieberman (0+ / 0-)

    by far.

    After Obama's eighth straight victory, Penn told reporters: "Winning Democratic primaries is not a qualification or a sign of who can win the general election.

    by nevadadem on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:44:11 AM PST

  •  Dunno. I'm half way on this. Yes, he and Webb v (12+ / 0-)

    voted like Republicans but I'd rather have those two in the Senate who vote 90% of the time for our causes than two Republicans who will vote against our causes 100% of the time.

    All that notwithstanding, he's a prime grade asshole for that vote.

    Divide and rule, a sound motto. Unite and lead, a better one. ::Goethe::

    by Jeremy10036 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:44:17 AM PST

  •  What's so sad. This wasn't even the real vote. (9+ / 0-)

    It was on cloture to break the filibuster.

    If these Assholes really didn't want to be held politically liable to their racist constituents than they could still have voted against it without blocking the actual bill.

    Fuckers.

    "An exact science is one that admits loss" -- Genesis P-Orridge

    by jethrock on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:44:26 AM PST

  •  Uh, buddy? (4+ / 0-)

    To me, he is the Blanche Lincoln of 2012 -- the Democrat I will most be happy to see go down in defeat.

    Really? Ben Nelson?

    Mel Gibson makes movies that look like snuff films shot by Abercrombie & Fitch's photographer. -9.38, -5.18

    by Nulwee on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:44:33 AM PST

    •  Good Point (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nulwee

      Can't disagree with that!

    •  Both? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MJB, Nulwee, divineorder

      And more?

      America legalized torture before they legalized marijuana.
      Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!

      by xxdr zombiexx on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:54:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Nebraska? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Govinda

      I can't stand Ben Nelson. But given the contexts of Montana and Nebraska, Nelson may be closer to the best we could get for more than one term than Tester is. Of course, If I magically found myself in Nelson's shoes, I'd say the hell with getting re-elected. I'd do what I could for as long as I could, while pushing the local Overton Window. But again of course, assuming I were honest, someone with my positions could never even get the first term in Nebraska and probably not in Montana.

      •  Ben Nelson makes Bob Kerrey look good (0+ / 0-)

        Yes, Nebraska is a conservative state. But while I prefer Ben Nelson to a Republican, he makes me nostalgic for Bob Kerrey.

        Yes, Bob Kerrey was a Lieberman-esque ass. But he was no more conservative than Nelson on most issues and he was also outright liberal on some things. (Backed single-payer health care, opposed DOMA, ardent supporter of abortion rights, etc.)

  •  I feel a little bit that way about Al Franken. (7+ / 0-)

    I donated to Al and he voted for the horrible tax cut "compromise" deal. My own senators voted for it too, which is infuriating. At least my representative voted against it.

    I didn't do it. Nobody saw me. You can't prove anything. --Bart Simpson

    by DreamyAJ on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:44:43 AM PST

  •  I like Tester (11+ / 0-)

    and I wouldn't put Tester in the "Blanche Lincoln" category.

    This is one of the few bad votes he has taken.

    Jim Manley: "Republicans are making love to Wall Street, while the people on Main Street are getting screwed."

    by Drdemocrat on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:45:09 AM PST

    •  I've heard Tester say some things I didn't like. (0+ / 0-)

      Apparently, he doesn't like anyone who doesn't look like him.  Frankly, I don't like his fat face either.  And please add Max Baucus and Kent Conrad to that list.  I think I'd kill myself before moving to Montana, North Dakota or any of the states that haven't been lucky enough to enjoy the progress of the Enlightenment.  These people are still in the Dark Ages.  Sorry if that offends anyone, but it's exactly how I feel, and from what I've learned about these states, you won't find me anywhere near any of them, ever.

  •  Kudos to Kos. KuKos if you will (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nulwee, moonpal

    Maybe you will be a little understanding of Obama when you realize a man you fought for helped kill a DREAM.

    Maybe no one is perfect? Would Obama have voted against DREAM? Would he?

    Maybe we can realize how great Obama actually is even if he isn't perfect.

    "I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way."-Jessica Rabbbit

    by Common Cents on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:46:00 AM PST

  •  How articulate. (0+ / 0-)

    It's the Supreme Court, Stupid!

    by Radiowalla on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:46:39 AM PST

  •  yeah, he sounded good to me, too. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mango

    I was flush that year, so I sent him 50 bucks.

    And I honestly haven't followed the specifics of this particular travesty he has been engaged in regarding DREAM.

    Damn, this politics stuff is tricky business, eh? Not helped at all by a lot of smoke and mirrors that seems to come along with it.

    don't always believe what you think...

    by claude on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:46:45 AM PST

    •  This is why I NEVER EVER give money (0+ / 0-)

      you cannot trust them.

      America legalized torture before they legalized marijuana.
      Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!

      by xxdr zombiexx on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:53:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's not about you (or me) (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        claude

        So you can't trust them. Sometimes you get fooled. If the reason you gov and the reason you vote is for your own sense of righteousness, then stay home. Otherwise, make the best guesses you can and the country will, on average, be better off than if you punt.

  •  You shouldn't be embarrassed (6+ / 0-)

    There's no way you could have predicted what Tester's vote would be on this.  You were working with the notion that because Tester was a Democrat, there was a reasonable chance that his election would be, on the whole, better for Montana and for the nation than if his opponent were elected.  Specifically, it stands to reason that a Democrat could be easier to convince to vote for something like the DREAM Act than a Republican.  You were dealing in probabilities, not certainties.

    Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

    by Linnaeus on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:46:56 AM PST

  •  So we are tossing out Montana? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    missliberties, divineorder
  •  ANd people complain that I am harsh and negative (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    claude, RebeccaG, Hannibal, esquimaux, Krush

    and want Dems to lose.

    You CANNOT trust politicians!

    It has always been that way.

    Yeah sure... a Wellstone or Sanders here and three, but MOSTLY, politicians are liars and manipulators.

    I would NEVER EVER EVER think of 'running for office' because I value the truth, being honest and 'telling it like it is' - 3 things that do not mix with politics.

    And anybody who makes a run for president is going to be capable of telling you some WHOPPERS.

    So I am greatly unsurprised about Tester burning Kos.

    I am sorry it happened, but people must realize that there is a real need to pin these fuckers down to what they say and even then the probability that they are lying to get your money and your vote is HUGE.

    America legalized torture before they legalized marijuana.
    Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!

    by xxdr zombiexx on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:47:17 AM PST

    •  yeah, you have to have a certain quality (0+ / 0-)

      about you in the first place to even be able to navigate political waters.

      and its not about wanting to help people.

      must not spam thread.must not spam thread.must not spam thread.must not spam thread.

      by Krush on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:00:21 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Trying to be a positive thinker (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dvd Avins

      I'd say Tester is an example of why I say political thought is more like a tag cloud than a number line - he may have voted for all manner of Dem things but his values may be different or DREAM Act issues.

      He might be very backwards when he is pretty progressive on others.

      Still can't be trusted though.

      America legalized torture before they legalized marijuana.
      Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!

      by xxdr zombiexx on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:01:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  no we shouldn't 'trust' any of them (0+ / 0-)

        and besides there are dynamics to the house and senate that I don't think any us understand. Because we aren't there.

        Its like any social situation, only with a l00 percent selfish dynamic. I know if I was there I would be rolled-most of here would be. They are sharks.

        All we can do is put pressure on them to do something in our favor. And leave out personal feelings.

        must not spam thread.must not spam thread.must not spam thread.must not spam thread.

        by Krush on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:14:37 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Wow. I appreciate this post, Kos. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    claude, irmaly, mango, divineorder

    Yup, sometimes we get sold a bill of goods and sometimes we sell ourselves one.  As progressive Dems we are so eager to see hopeful developments that we sometimes make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

    It's very important, in my opinion, to acknowledge when we made a mistake of excessive enthusiasm for a candidate.  Kos doing this is a victory for reality and a sign of humility.  We never benefit from continuing to emphasize the positive in somebody we've endorsed and closing our eyes to the ugly reality when he or she betrays us.

    If looks could kill it would have been us instead of him.

    by jhannon on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:47:44 AM PST

  •  Tester or RW Republican... (13+ / 0-)

    I pick Tester everyday of the week...one vote you disagree with is not enough to be negative...Tester has supported just about every Democratic initiative from Stimulus to HCR...

    As for Webb...Webb or Allen...again my pick would be Webb anyday of the week...

    Yes in some cases better than the Republican alternative is enough...

    Obama - Change I still believe in

    by dvogel001 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:48:05 AM PST

    •  The Perennial Choice (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dvogel001, mango, change the Be

      This evil or that slightly lesser Evil?

      It's all we have - sorry.

      America legalized torture before they legalized marijuana.
      Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!

      by xxdr zombiexx on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:51:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  citizens have to make changes too (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        divineorder

        I'm sure there are plenty of people on this site who haven't worked hard to engage in politics, or lower their carbon footprint, or recycle, or donate to the needy, or support their best friend who was just diagnosed with breast cancer.

        what I'm saying is that not just politicians fail. humans do. Me included. I could write countless diaries on how I've failed to improve various aspects of myself, resulting in harm to my friends and family and even strangers.

        basically, what Bill Hicks said, when it comes to humans. we're a virus with legs.

        ---

        me and a friend were sitting around at a cafe up in LA the other week wondering why so many people expected change from Obama when they won't even change themselves.

        obama has arguably sold us out for tax cuts and a honeymoon with mitch mcconnell. but there's millions of americans who haven't undertaken permanent changes for the positive in their own lives.

        even if our politicians made the right vote every time, they'd get punished by voters for doing it because the citizens need to change.

        so I blame everybody [ust some more than others  ]

        and yes, we need democrats to lead the movement of change, which is what obama promised us in 08. looks like both he and the rest of america have a lot of changing to do.

        americans voted for the GOP in the midterms. they invited the abusive ex husband back into their home to eat with their kids. so when the abusive ex husband gets drunk and starts beating us, we can look at those voters in November's midterms as enables, and obama's enabling of the gop is the ass-backwards mandate he feels he's been given.

        witness the GOPRANOS.. rethugs: "If they fuck with me or Shaha, I have enough on them to fuck them too." -Paul Wolfowitz, quoted by the UK's Guardian

        by change the Be on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:07:53 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Great statement. We should all remember this next (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dvd Avins, treehugger, dvogel001, quaoar, deep

      cycle.  Having someone that only votes with Pelosi 51% of the time makes her speaker, and Boehner nursing another scotch at home. And sometimes, just sometimes, you have to take that choice.

    •  Yeah, it's a tough call (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dvogel001, quaoar, mango, Pager, zapus

      I'd rather have Tester in there than a Republican.  At the same time, this was an important vote, and Tester deserves to catch heat for it at the very least.

      Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

      by Linnaeus on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:52:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  would we have had Pres. Allen (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dvogel001, change the Be

      if it weren't for Jim Webb?

      I think so.

      Republicans===the party of the 1% rich people in America. Or in other words..The Party of NO!

      by jalapeno on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:55:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Don't forget about Lieberman. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    divineorder, jethrock

    He's going to get all sorts of help from the Dem machine now, so booting his sorry ass out of office just got a lot harder.

  •  I'm not sure why both Tester and Baucus (7+ / 0-)

    voted against the Dream Act.  Montana is a strange state with a really great governor.  Perhaps they got lots of calls from their most cruel constituents.  I'm not sure I would take it out on Tester.  He's been mostly good for us.

    OT-Another "wish he would go away" senator--Lieberman.  If not for Lieberman's close association with Repukes, we may have seen DADT go down as well.  Give credit where credit is due.

    Again OT - we should start now trying to field a good candidate to oppose Kyl.  We should start running ads now to show his votes.  There are lots of Hispanics in AZ.  We need to start GOTV now.

    •  Completely agree. The time to attack is NOW. (0+ / 0-)

      I want Latinos and Hispanics to become red-hot pokers of hate for GOPers, and crushing DREAM just lit the fire. Any smart people in Dem leadership going to take this opportunity? Start spending some fucking ad dollars now.

    •  Because most Montanans are white (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      juancito, divineorder

      and while they like their cheap non-white illegal immigrant labor, as it keeps profits up and costs down, they don't like the idea of their becoming citizens and challenging their majority status, for both political and racial reasons. This is modern-day slavery or sharecropping, and these "Dems" are actively promoting it.

      "Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" --Alexander Hamilton

      by kovie on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:04:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  There are also a fair number of bigots (0+ / 0-)

      in Montana.  As an Indian-American who lived there for 7 years, I felt it.

      Doesn't excuse these votes, though

      Barack Obama for President '08

      by v2aggie2 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 07:10:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think the decision ... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dvogel001, divineorder, Govinda

    to include people up to age 35 was the problem.  If they'd limited it to actual "children", as was promoted, it might have passed.

  •  Consider the value of Primaries (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irmaly, roubs, divineorder, Lorikeet, zapus

    Look at Murkowski.  Technically still a Republican, she's about to be sworn in to another term after wining a write-in candidate.  And she voted the right way on both things today.  Free from party group think....wonderful things happen.

    "They don't think it be like it is, but it do. " Oscar Gamble, circa 1980

    by Spider Stumbled on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:49:28 AM PST

  •  i donated to tester in 2006 (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irmaly, divineorder, CKendall

    but i won't in 2012.  not out of spite, i just don't think i'll get a good return on my investment (in part because of votes of like).  i plan on donating to environmental and gay rights groups that are attempting to bring about change through the courts.  that's where change is going to happen in the next several years, not congress.  i wish it weren't the case, but that's the sad reality.  sorry tester and hagan.  you're not worth it anymore.

    •  This is how I feel (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      divineorder, dnicely

      I am staying strictly local for the next two years, perhaps forever. And I am only staying with for-sure strong progressives.  The rest are a waste of time. I am very angry with the President as well as so many, most, of our Washington Democrats. They most certainly still affect the local ballot because they will be at the top of it, but if we have to run against them to win, I'm right there. In fact, that is my feeling here in my county. We are going to have to run against Washington (Dems included) to have any shot at winning anything.

      This frees me up emotionally and in terms of setting my sights. Once I decided the President and some of the Democrats just weren't worth it any more, I felt free and found another way to channel my money, my time, and my votes.

      "Whenever a fellow tells me he's bipartisan, I know he's going to vote against me."-- Harry S. Truman

      by irmaly on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:14:17 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is actually wise in many ways (0+ / 0-)

        We are finding the bugs in the idea of national outreach to fund local candidates. We don't have any control or accountability.

        Another somewhat oblique example is Grayson in Florida. I heart Grayson. I gave money to him, multiple times. But I'm in California, he's in Florida, and in a red district too. I watched helplessly as he went down in defeat. Nothing that really needed to be done-- knocking on doors, talking to neighbors, going to events, etc-- was possible for me to do from 3000 miles away.

        So. The problem with supporting non-local candidates, is that ultimately they don't listen to you, they listen to the voters in their districts. That means you can't corral them effectively when they go wrong, and you can't help the better ones to stay in office.

        I too am staying local with donations and campaign help. I worked for Boxer and Brown this fall and I'm glad I did. We won, and I have high confidence that they both will do the right thing; Boxer in particular has been a progressive hero for a long time.

  •  So, What's Brian Schweitzer's Future Plans? (0+ / 0-)

    Might as well start recruiting for a primary challenge now.

    ... the watchword of true patriotism: "Our country - when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right." - Carl Schurz; Oct. 17, 1899

    by NevDem on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:51:06 AM PST

    •  With Schweitzer (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      missliberties, wsexson, emilysdad

      You'd get worse. Trust me. I live here in Montana.

      Schweitzer is DINO, pure and simple.

      Blogging locally, acting globally 4&20 blackbirds

      by jhwygirl on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:12:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I believe Schweitzer would turn out to be (0+ / 0-)

        not too far to the left of Joe Manchin. And his populist loud-mouthed style that we loved during his convention speech would suddenly be not so cool when directed against us.

        Also, hi :) Don't think you know me, but I follow your blog frequently since I was a Tyler Gernant intern in 2009.

        Support Dennis McDonald and Montana Democrats in the 2010 election!

        by twohundertseventy on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:29:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hey there back! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          twohundertseventy

          Did we meet?

          Yeah - Schweitzer isn't what everyone would think he'd be - but I think there's a tract record there that kos has seen (so no support there, thankfully).

          I hope Tyler goes at it again.  I'll be right there - Gernant is the real deal.

          Blogging locally, acting globally 4&20 blackbirds

          by jhwygirl on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:30:41 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Don't think so, but we read you for sure. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jhwygirl

            I think everyone who's met Tyler loves him, but he's kind of disappeared after the primary. I never got to talk to him again after that day, and neither did many people I work with who were supporters of him. That'll probably not help him when he tries to run again. It's not really good style to never speak to your supporters who've worked their asses off for you again after you lost your election.

            Right now I think Kendall Van Dyk is the real deal. Having worked on both campaigns in positions in which I had close contact with the candidates- for Tyler as an intern at a time where he had pretty much no staffers or interns or anything, and for Kendall's campaign as the GOTV microtargeter- Kendall's campaign was a thousand times more professional and, of course, successful, even as he's not much older than Tyler.

            Support Dennis McDonald and Montana Democrats in the 2010 election!

            by twohundertseventy on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:40:15 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Given that choice I'd stick with Tester (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jhwygirl, missliberties
      As far as I'm concerned, Schweitzer's infamous 2006 NYT Magazine interview was a career-killer for him in national Democratic politics:

      Schweitzer remains an iconoclast; he says he supported John McCain's presidential bid in 2000, though he has since soured on McCain because of the way he has courted the religious right, and he says he is now intrigued by the possibility of a presidential run by Mitt Romney, the Republican governor of Massachusetts, in 2008. "If he gets the nomination, I might support him," Schweitzer told me.

      I can overlook a lot, but endorsing Mitt Romney crosses the line.

  •  what is the biggest pisser of the day... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chrississippi, divineorder, CKendall

    4 of those 5 dems don't vote and cloture passes.

    They voted no so the number went up to 58 needed. If they would have just kept quiet or left the room it would be on its way for a vote and then they could have voted no.

    This is bullshit.  No reason for these dems to filibuster.  It just gives the republicans cover.

    Republicans===the party of the 1% rich people in America. Or in other words..The Party of NO!

    by jalapeno on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:52:58 AM PST

  •  Oh good, let's turn Montana red (9+ / 0-)

    A terrible vote on his part, yes.  There have been countless other votes that have been good on his part.  But let's throw the baby out with the bathwater and become single issue voters

    I'm shocked to learn that 1 in 12 Americans do not know that the bird, is in fact, that word.

    by dansac on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:53:01 AM PST

    •  so what was this vote for then? (6+ / 0-)

      it was to end debate.  It wasn't on the issue.

      Every dem that denied cloture today should be punished.  They vote for cloture and then they could vote no.

      That is how the republicans got things through when they had a slim majority in the Senate.

      Think of what those dems did today.  That is what burns.

      Republicans===the party of the 1% rich people in America. Or in other words..The Party of NO!

      by jalapeno on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:54:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Of course it sucks (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        treehugger, divineorder

        But hoping for a dem to go down when the alternative is a republican?  No

        I'm shocked to learn that 1 in 12 Americans do not know that the bird, is in fact, that word.

        by dansac on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:04:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, it's the opposite (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        divineorder

        He votes to deny cloture so that he doesn't have to go on the record voting "no" or "yes". Personally, this probably works better for him. That said, I take your point. Sometimes, the Senator has to to not take the easy way out.

        Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

        by FischFry on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:25:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Every issue is a single issue (0+ / 0-)

      when it comes up for a vote, and you praise or criticize pols for their stances on each.

      What positive things has he actively done as senator?

      "Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" --Alexander Hamilton

      by kovie on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:01:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Voted for the democrats agenda (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dvd Avins, treehugger, tari

        on issue ranging from stimulus to health care to DADT.  Certainly preferable to a republican

        I'm shocked to learn that 1 in 12 Americans do not know that the bird, is in fact, that word.

        by dansac on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:03:34 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  But what has he taken a prominent stand on? (0+ / 0-)

          One, even, that might be controversial? None that I know of.

          "Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" --Alexander Hamilton

          by kovie on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:06:41 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  How does that relate to the post (0+ / 0-)

            in which markos roots for his defeat?

            I'm shocked to learn that 1 in 12 Americans do not know that the bird, is in fact, that word.

            by dansac on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:11:36 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  All politics is local... (0+ / 0-)

            Voting for stimulus/health care/DADT is the very definition of taking controversial votes in MT.  Those votes will be used by Republicans against him and he might very well go down.

            So, what would be a controversial vote for the democrats from NY?  I bet they don't even skip a beat voting for DADT/etc.  Real bravery there!

  •  Prejudice Doesn't Have A Political Affiliation (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irmaly

    It can be Red, Blue or any other color. I think what Tester and all the rest who voted against this act did is disgusting and un-American.

    "You have nothing...nothing to threaten me with. Nothing to do with all your strength".

    by The Lone Apple on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:53:08 AM PST

  •  I think it's wrong (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    missliberties, JonathanMN

    to toss him out. He has been good on most-I'd focus on the more egregious one's like Manchin in VW.

  •  People will disappoint you, sooner... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irmaly, RebeccaG, divineorder, commonmass

    ...or later, especially politicians. That's what my late mother, a life-long Democrat, told me many times.

    Since Senatoe Tester is a Kossack, Markos should invite him to post a diary to explain his vote. If he does, then you can grill him `til he's well done.

    If he does...

    Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

    by JeffW on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:54:43 AM PST

  •  You know, I just had an interesting (6+ / 0-)

    conversation about that with a friend of mine that I took a long road trip with. He's a Democrat, and gay, but not too political but enough that I don't have to dope-slap him, if you get my drift. So we were talking about that and he launches in to this whole thing on undocumented aliens. And I say to him, "you know, so-called illegal immigration is actually way down in the last couple of years". He didn't believe me. I had to drag him to a computer to show him the stats.

    So it goes to show you that lots of people are really misinformed, especially about the DREAM act. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts wanted a bill to allow the children of undocumented aliens to be able to go to state colleges and universities at an in-state tuition rate, and it was defeated the first time. Wanna know who allows it? Apparently, Texas does. Texas. Go figure.

    I love to point out to hard core Republicans and those Democrats in the unhinged wing of immigration policy that none other than George W. Bush  wanted a sane immigration policy. The ONLY idea he had, as far as I am concerned, which made any sense.

    Join CM,Wxdude and Co. for AWARDS PLUS EDITION diary each Wed. at 8pm ET.

    by commonmass on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:55:00 AM PST

  •  Which kids are you talking about? (0+ / 0-)

    There's a lot of children who would like to go in the military and go to college in the U.S.

    They are all over the World.  Why stop with just the kids in the CONUS?  Why not let every child everywhere have these benefits?  Limiting these benefits to just kids in the CONUS is the ultimate discrimination isn't it?

    How can you argue that a child 1 foot inside the CONUS is qualified and a child 1 foot outside the CONUS is not?

    Ridiculous?  Yes. And a reflection of the ridiculous immigration policy big business has forced upon us.  A lot of people are going to suffer and it's not their fault but in practical terms there isn't much to be done that is fair to everybody.

    •  At age 35?...n/t (0+ / 0-)

      Obama - Change I still believe in

      by dvogel001 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:03:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  because if you have grown up here and (0+ / 0-)

      gone to school here, and are fully acculturated and all your close ties are here and all your friends are here and your values have been formed and shaped here and you are part of this society, and you contribute to this society, you deserve not to be hunted and persecuted and criminalized and forced to live in a special police state all of your own.

      and whose undocumented working-class parents came here for a better life just like yours, and who pay taxes too (yes,that's right

      whatever the fuck "CONUS" is. 10-4.

      i guess it helps to throw in lame pseudo-military acronyms when you are callously discounting the lives of several hundred thousand people.

      Human reason is beautiful and invincible --Milosz, Incantation

      by juancito on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:44:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  We have no obligation to an illegal immigrant (0+ / 0-)

        because he has been here illegally for a long time.

        The only issue that matters is whether making that person a legal immigrant and later an American is good for America.

        The current DREAM act was too liberal and really had no chance of passing.  I expect that the Republicans will introduce a new act (they won't call it DREAM) that will pass.

        Changes I hope it includes:

        1. Kill the people smuggling business.  Let would-be immigrants come here if they pay cash to cover:
          1. A good meal and transportation home if they can't handle life here
          2. A basic health insurance policy
          3. A good behavior / not a burden on the public deposit.

          You get your deposit back with interest when you become a US citizen or when you leave the US as long as you have committed no crimes and have not been a burden on the public purse.

        1. No eligibility for even minor criminals.  Immigrants are guests.  If a guest is indulging in petty crime (even things like turnstile jumping) you kick him out.
        1. You must demonstrate that you can legally make enough money to support yourself and a small family.  Who cares if you have a college degree as long as you can do that?
        1. A program to allow immigrants in good standing to bring over family members if they pay a deposit and demonstrate that they can support them.  But if you bring over your family members you are responsible for them - if they turn out to be criminals or if you do not support them as promised then you get deported too.
        •  We disagree fundamentally on everything (0+ / 0-)

          including your idea of "America" and your idea about the role of immigrants in the US labor market, the historical benefits the US economy has derived from undocumented migrant labor, the role of racism in keeping down the cost of migrant labor, the role of US foreign policy in creating undocumented migrant flows, and probably what you mean by "we."

          So be it. That's what this place is for.

          But this really shows how far apart we are:

          I expect that the Republicans will introduce a new act (they won't call it DREAM) that will pass.

          the Republicans are not going to introduce a bill that legalizes any undocumented worker or youth.

          Their strategy is pure enforcement "by attrition," and the only laws they are going to push will be pure enforcement measures deisgned to further criminalize, jail and expel undocumented workers, and to eliminate humanitarian relief from deportation, judicial review and due process.

          Ok, that's a prediction.

          If the Republicans do introduce & push humanitarian relief legislation for any undocumented people, feel free to totally remind me I was wrong!

          and have a good holiday.

          Human reason is beautiful and invincible --Milosz, Incantation

          by juancito on Sun Dec 19, 2010 at 02:48:34 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Immigration isn't a humanitarian issue (0+ / 0-)

            But this really shows how far apart we are:

            I expect that the Republicans will introduce a new act (they won't call it DREAM) that will pass.

            the Republicans are not going to introduce a bill that legalizes any undocumented worker or youth.

            Republicans aren't stupid - if they were we wouldn't have gotten our heads handed to us in this election.

            Here are some facts that Republicans also have to deal with:

            1. The country is becoming more Hispanic.  That will continue due to differential birth rates even if we end all immigration.  The Republicans need to get more votes from that demographic.
            1. Demographically, we need immigrants.  Bringing in young workers who contribute to the economy and pay taxes and Social Security is an economic win, especially if they come as young adults so you don't have to pay for their non-working childhood.  This is especially important as Americans have fewer children and we have more retired people per worker.
            1. Economically, we also need immigrants.  Many industries (ie. meat packing, agriculture, garment) can not survive in the US without low paid immigrant labor.  The people who run those businesses often are Republicans, contribute to Republican candidates, and have a voice in Republican policy circles.

            Key issues for the Republicans will be:

            1. Bring in more immigrant workers while calling it a crack down.
            1. Try to make sure that immigrants who become Americans are more likely to be Republicans.

            From a Republican point of view, the best way to do this is to:

            1. Focus immigration on productive workers, not family reunions or green card lotteries
            1. Be harsh on getting rid of immigrants who can't support themselves or commit crimes
            1. Support families (but only for those immigrants who can support their own families)
            1. Show up at all the naturalization ceremonies for those who successfully run the gauntlet and take credit for the policies that allowed them to become Americans
  •  Sorry Kos, (0+ / 0-)

    you deserve better from this guy (early money and everything). I hope he had the guts to speak to you personally about this.  

    Drug wars are stupid

    by Danny Boy on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:56:48 AM PST

  •  But Tester did vote for the DADT repeal (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    goatchowder, dvogel001, LakeSuperior

    So, kinda a mixed bag.

    In the 1970's and 80's, after losing over segregation, conservatives elevated gays and lesbians to boogeyman status. Now, as they are losing the fight over gay rights, they are elevating illegal immigrants into the new boogeyman.

    It's sad.

  •  Based on one vote? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    treehugger, Govinda, zapus, JonathanMN

    please put forward a broader argument kos

  •  Well, at least he did vote to repeal DADT /nt (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dvd Avins, treehugger, JonathanMN

    I must be dreaming...

    by murphy on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:58:16 AM PST

  •  Is this the only thing he hasn't been with us on? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    treehugger, dvogel001

    It seems like it would be a bad idea to give up supporting Tester just because he disagreed with us on one issue. It would be different if he went against the Democrats and multiple issues like Lieberman, Lincol, Nelson (NE), etc. If we start demanding purity then we're no better than the Tea Party.

    •  No (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      divineorder

      he voted with the GOP to filibuster the bill that would have stopped tax breaks for off-shoring.

      The guy is a sellout.  And KOS is absolutely right: no more netroots ATM machine for him.

      In the sea, Biscayne, there prinks
      The young emerald evening star,
      Good light for drunkards, poets, widows,
      And ladies soon to be married.

      by looty on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:09:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  So he voted with the GOP on approximately two (0+ / 0-)

        issues and we're going to throw him overboard? Nate SIlver ranked Tester the 8th most valuable Senate Democrat based on expected and actual DW NOMINATE scores. I'd rather focus on replacing Democrats that are less liberal than their state or just complete pains like Ben Nelson, Pryor, and Landireu. We all laughed at the GOP's ten question purity test. If we start demanding purity, we're now better than the Tea Party.

        •  You make your choice. I won't help him (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          divineorder

          since I have limited time and resources, I'll spend them on people who represent my values.  Obviously I have no delusions that my help, or lack thereof, will have any effect on the outcome. But this is the 2nd time Tester has joined Republicans in a filibuster on an issue I believe in.

          In the sea, Biscayne, there prinks
          The young emerald evening star,
          Good light for drunkards, poets, widows,
          And ladies soon to be married.

          by looty on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:33:32 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  It is the only thing he hasn't been with us on. (0+ / 0-)

      Unless you count things like the tax deal vote which really only the 10 most liberal Senators backed.

      Support Dennis McDonald and Montana Democrats in the 2010 election!

      by twohundertseventy on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:26:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I can't think of a single thing that Tester (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    midwesterner

    has done since taking office, aside from showing up, sitting on committees and casting votes as he's required to do, like sponsor, co-sponsor or promote this or that bill. He's got to be one of the most invisible, and lazy, members of the senate.

    What the hell does he think he's in the senate for, anyway?

    We got more, but so much for "better" Dems.

    "Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" --Alexander Hamilton

    by kovie on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 10:59:39 AM PST

    •  1st term Senators generally... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Geekesque, divineorder, Govinda

      do not lead on legislation...

      Obama - Change I still believe in

      by dvogel001 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:04:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

        Like Udall and Merkley on filibuster reform? Like Sanders and Franken on just about everything? And in the house, like Grayson on progressive issues?

        This is a cop out.

        "Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" --Alexander Hamilton

        by kovie on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:05:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  There are exceptions to the rule... (0+ / 0-)

          of course...but in general how many bills has Al Franken drafted???  For instance...

          Obama - Change I still believe in

          by dvogel001 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:06:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ah, yes, the exceptions... (0+ / 0-)

            that disprove the rule...

            "Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" --Alexander Hamilton

            by kovie on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:15:45 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ah yes... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              missliberties

              just another excuse to bash...non-liberals

              Obama - Change I still believe in

              by dvogel001 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:31:28 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Who are welcome here (0+ / 0-)

                but do not figure into this site's values and goals. Also, name a single non-liberal who's ever made this country better. Not seemingly better, but actually better.

                There are a few. I'm just curious if you know.

                "Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" --Alexander Hamilton

                by kovie on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 06:44:16 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Name a single liberal... (0+ / 0-)

                  leader of this country...there are and have been none...they have all been on the losing side of elections...at the national level...

                  Don't say FDR and LBJ they had plenty of non-liberal policies that if met the current DKos scrutiny would be calling for their impeachment as well...

                  Obama - Change I still believe in

                  by dvogel001 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 07:41:36 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Famous American liberals (0+ / 0-)

                    Jefferson
                    Lincoln
                    TR
                    Wilson
                    FDR
                    Truman
                    LBJ

                    They got a thing or fifty done, IIRC.

                    Also, the most successful and effective non-liberals have veered towards the liberal end of their ideological position, such as:

                    Washington
                    Hamilton
                    Eisenhower
                    Nixon

                    "Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" --Alexander Hamilton

                    by kovie on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 07:48:21 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  FDR was not a liberal in many ways.. (0+ / 0-)

                      that is a DKos myth and I warned you about that...LBJ was not a liberal either...and about now we would be calling for his warmongering impeachment...

                      The standards you hold Obama up to would make the other Presidents you mention in the last 100 years look like tyrants...

                      Obama - Change I still believe in

                      by dvogel001 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 08:28:05 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I don't care what you "warned" me about (0+ / 0-)

                        They were both liberals by any reasonable measure. By your standard Eugene Debs was probably a conservative and Emma Goldman practically a charter member of the John Birch Society. They were liberals, even considering their non-liberal actions.

                        And Medicare, Medicaid, Civil and Voting Rights Acts, not liberal? Come on. Seriously?

                        Also, you have to judge presidents by the times that they live in, the conditions they operate under and the past that preceded them. By these standards, these were all liberals. Whereas Obama, not so much. What he's been doing would barely have counted as liberal in the 30's. Today, he's governing like a Nixon Republican.

                        I don't know where you're getting your history lessons.

                        "Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" --Alexander Hamilton

                        by kovie on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:30:34 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I won't debate this to the end... (0+ / 0-)

                          but will give one example..the present day Medicare is much more comprehensive than the original passage of Medicare and it was optional for the states to adopt, Arizona did not adopt until 1980...

                          Applying the standard of incrementalism complaints against the Democrats of today in HCR would be a complete failure of implementing Medicare in an incrementalism manner...

                          SS has a similar incremental history...

                          Most of the "failures" of the Obama administration have simply been wins that are incremental huge policy wins for the future that historians will look back on as the equivalent of starting Medicare or SS

                          So the unrealistic standards you hold modern day political figures to would make these supposed liberal heros of yours be failures if the yardstick was measured in a similar way...and you know I am right by this "spin"

                          Also, you have to judge presidents by the times that they live in, the conditions they operate under and the past that preceded them. By these standards, these were all liberals. Whereas Obama, not so much. What he's been doing would barely have counted as liberal in the 30's. Today, he's governing like a Nixon Republican.

                          Obama - Change I still believe in

                          by dvogel001 on Sun Dec 19, 2010 at 05:31:55 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  Also speaking about LBJ... (0+ / 0-)

                      the incrementalist in chief would have driven you crazy...

                      Obama - Change I still believe in

                      by dvogel001 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 08:28:45 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

    •  He made important changes to food safety (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      missliberties, cville townie

      just off the top of my head.

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:25:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  He's been pretty good on local issues. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cville townie

      His big issue so far has been his Wilderness bill, which is in a rural (and not Ohio-like rural, but with woods and everything) a huge, huge issue. He has also been very good on Native American issues.

      And on national issues, he's backed us on pretty much everything except for immigration reform (not just DREAM, he also voted against it in 2007.). Stimulus, HCR, unemployment benefits, cap and trade, you name it, he supported it.

      Support Dennis McDonald and Montana Democrats in the 2010 election!

      by twohundertseventy on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:26:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Could it be revenge? (0+ / 0-)

        His big Wilderness bill was part of the omnibus bill that Reid dropped on the floor Thursday. It was wrapped up in a pork ribbon.

        I bet Reid suggested that it go into the omnibus bill. With all the expectations of a sure-fire pork appropriation, Tester got let down.

        If this is revenge, Tester's got to go. We don't need any more third grade playground attitudes in the Senate.

        Just speculating...

        "All people are born alike - except Republicans and Democrats" - Groucho Marx

        by GrumpyOldGeek on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 01:52:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I have a hard time believing that he would kill (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          GrumpyOldGeek

          a completely unrelated issue in a temper fit. That's totally not Tester. Also, it'd be a weird way to get back at Reid, I don't know that Reid was the biggest supporter of DREAM. It would have been more logical to vote against DADT repeal then, with this whole Choi/Reid thing.

          Support Dennis McDonald and Montana Democrats in the 2010 election!

          by twohundertseventy on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 02:36:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I can't think of any reason. I shouldn't have (0+ / 0-)

            gone in a direction of retaliation. The fact is that such a stupid move would end up with no further support. Ever. Tester isn't that kind of person. But I figured he wasn't the kind of person who would vote against the DREAM Act, either.

            I'm hoping that he explains himself. I am unlikely to buy his explanation, but I would like to get some idea of why he did what he did.

            "All people are born alike - except Republicans and Democrats" - Groucho Marx

            by GrumpyOldGeek on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 05:26:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Simple, for the same reasons Republicans did, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              GrumpyOldGeek

              and Montanans oppose DREAM:

              “Illegal immigration is a critical problem facing our country, but amnesty is not the solution,” Tester said Friday before Saturday’s vote. “I do not support legislation that provides a path to citizenship for anyone in this country illegally.”

              Also,

              “I strongly oppose amnesty for illegal aliens,” Baucus said. “We need to focus on securing our borders and creating good-paying jobs for hard-working Montanans.”

              Support Dennis McDonald and Montana Democrats in the 2010 election!

              by twohundertseventy on Sun Dec 19, 2010 at 12:06:56 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  He's done a lot - of bad. (0+ / 0-)

      Fortunately it hasn't gone anywhere. Check out the 'Forest Jobs and Recreation Act'

  •  I'm sure the GOP Senators who voted to repeal (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dvogel001, zapus, JonathanMN

    DADT are getting the same thrown at them on the other side.

    Not sure how effective it is to cut off your nose to spite your face.

    Divide and rule, a sound motto. Unite and lead, a better one. ::Goethe::

    by Jeremy10036 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:00:12 AM PST

  •  Well, I think the pull Dailykos has in MT (6+ / 0-)

    might swing a couple of dozen votes one way or the other.

    Meanwhile, we've got Lieberman.

    Fight the battles you can have a shot at winning: it's hardly worth even discussing the minutiae of every vote from Democrats from red States at this point. Landrieu, Webb, Tester and quite a few others are not going to vote in line with progressive or liberal values.

    We're going to have a hard enough time holding on to seats we should never have had to even try - Feingold's, for instance. Spreading what little power we've got too thinly is a real concern in '12.  

    Obama/Democrats: The Earth is round. Republicans: No! it's flat!
    The compromise: The Earth is a triangle.

    by shpilk on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:00:59 AM PST

  •  Broken Dreams (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon

    Broken Dreams: http://goo.gl/...

  •  Yeah, it hurts (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    treehugger, lisastar, JonathanMN

    It hurts whenever someone sells out principle for political gain, but it's politics. If anyone is going to play the game, they will get dirty. The willingness to sell out principle goes with the job. Fortunately, any politician worth a dime doesn't do it eagerly or at every opportunity. (I'm looking at you, Mr. President.)

    Better to chalk this one up to Sen. Tester going against what he believes for a few votes down the line. When he learned the vote would come up short, he voted "No" to bank a little immunity from right wing attack in two years. It won't go far, of course, and it stinks, but sometimes you do it.

    Shake it off, kos. You never know what the landscape will look like in two years. Who would have said in November 2008 that the Democratic Party would be sinking like a stone in December 2010.

  •  that's how I feel about Lieberman (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chrississippi, valadon, divineorder

    DADT repeal didn't really cost them anything did it?
    I mean America was behind it.  That's all they were willing to trade for 1 trillion dollars and Social Security.

    Yeah, I'm pitchfork mad like that.

    by lisastar on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:02:57 AM PST

  •  You know what depressed me the most... (0+ / 0-)

    ...over this past month or so?

    Rachel Maddow.

    She did an analysis of where a lot of this crazy non-economic theory of tax cuts came from, during the Reagan administration.

    Now, we can argue about how good a job the MSM did then, but most people I know argue they were fairly on the ball at pointing out how fucking brain-dead Reagan's economic "theories" were.

    And Americans STILL voted for him, three times. (What? GHWBush was Reagan by then, basically.)

    I think that unless we make education our top priority and/or ban anyone from voting who has ever voted Republican, this will keep happening, even if we wake up the MSM to how awful they are these days, even if we shut down Faux News.

    On Sara Palin: "That woman...is an Idiot." -- Keith Olbermann

    by allergywoman on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:03:24 AM PST

  •  I just threw his Christmas card (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irmaly, trinite

    in the trash.  Sorry I sent this guy money.

  •  This is childish (14+ / 0-)

    Jon Tester voted for health care reform.

    Jon Tester voted Wall St. reform.

    Jon Tester voted for equal pay for women.

    Jon Tester voted for cloture on DADT.

    Jon Tester supports cap and trade!

    Hell, Jon Tester even supported the public option!

    Yes, he voted the wrong way today on a bill that should have been obvious, but that was extremely unpopular in his state -- it was wrong of him to do and we should let him know it was wrong.

    But to say that you want to see a moderate liberal Senator from MONTANA lose because he didn't vote your way one time -- that's just absurd.

    •  I don't think it's absurd at all. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jethrock

      His vote today only encourages more hatred and discrimination toward children with parents from other countries.  It's really horrible.  

      •  So would you rather (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        divineorder, JonathanMN

        Have a Senator who votes NO on everything Democrats and liberals hold dear?  Because that is literally the other option in Montana - remember Conrad Burns?

        Tester made a mistake today.  I'm going to email him and tell him how disappointed I am in his vote.

        But, overall, he has been a very good Democrat in a very Republican state.

        •  No. I want a senator who stands on principle (0+ / 0-)

          and who teaches people who are filled with hate toward anyone who isn't them that it's the wrong thing to do.  It's morally wrong and it isn't good for our country not to educate all children to their fullest potential.  These guys are cowards and probably biggots in hiding too.

          •  If you actually vote in Montana, (0+ / 0-)

            then you really need to take it up with your fellow-residents, form a coalition and dump the guy, b'cuz from all indications, a majority of Montanans got the senator they wanted..

            "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

            by Sybil Liberty on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 01:24:13 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  I'm with you (4+ / 0-)

      I don't like what Tester did, but if it wasn't going to get the votes anyway, perhaps I can understand the politicking.

      This was a big vote you, with an enormous impact on thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of our neighbors. Still, we will need Tester if we're going to hold on to the Senate in '12. More to the point, we're going to need him, if we're to try and restore a working majority -- which will still probably be 60 votes. It's a disappointing vote, but there will be a greater chance of getting a better vote on this out of a re-elected Job Tester than whichever GOPer would replace him. Of course, Markos knows this, which is why he should be more mature about his reaction.

      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

      by FischFry on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:22:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  On assholes... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jordans11

      Being livid at Tester is one thing, and I don't fault Kos for being pissed.  I'm also not such a prude that I would fault him for saying this vote "fucking dumb and mean".  Because it was fucking dumb.  And mean.

      I get why Kos trotted out "asshole".  He wants us to be just as pissed as he is.  He feels personally betrayed, and this is an issue that is especially important to him.

      Still, Democrats aren't going to win by calling anyone an asshole, especially a Democrat that wins in a place like Montana.  It's just not effective rhetoric.  It doesn't energize our base, and it's very offputting to everyone else.

      Much better word: "weak".

  •  This is INSANE (13+ / 0-)

    Come on people, lets get a grip here.  In Montana, the DREAM Act polls 80/20 against - and thats on a good day.  There are really no active groups that support it, and none that can mobilize against vocal opposition.  It definitely sucks, but thats how it is, and Jon Tester is committed to representing the people of Montana.  

    It definitely sucks that guys we like vote against us sometimes, but thats who they represent, and until we can change the hearts and minds of the thousands and millions of people they represent, its what we're going to have to live with.

    But because Tester - a straight up great guy - doesn't vote with us on one issue we're going to help hand his seat over to a crazy teabag republican who will vote against us 100% of the time? Give me a break.  Tester voted with us on Health Care, on the Stimulus, on financial reform and on dozens of other issues that he's going to get hammered on every day for the next two years.  

    Lets be clear here: the problem isn't Jon Tester - the problem is millions of people in America across America who hear fear over the airwaves and have no real outlet for their economic woes. It's definitely unfortunate, but the answer is going to be mobilization and education, not retaliation and going after our friends and allies.

    Come on.

    •  Totally agree (0+ / 0-)

      We're lucky to have Tester in the Senate.  Do we want the Senate to be 75% GOP in 2012?

      The original post is extreme.

      Reason my go-to site has been Talking Points Memo for the last 2 years.

    •  I don't care how it polls in Nevada ... (0+ / 0-)

      ... Tester has NO excuse to vote against closure. None. A closure vote is just a vote on whether or not to stop debating the bill and take a vote. This isn't about the failure to vote with us on one single issue, this is about joining the Republicans in obstructing a Democratic bill. The ONLY right course of action here was to vote YES on closure. If he felt the need to vote NO on the floor to represent his constituents, then fine. Senators should be able to vote independently of their parties on the floor. But as a Democrat, he had a duty to his own party to let the issue go to the floor for a vote in the first place.

  •  Reasonable people can disagree on the "dream" (3+ / 0-)

    act.  You cannot incentivize breaking U.S. laws.

    •  It's the kids, though (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wsexson, shenderson

      People who had no choice in the matter. My friend lost her parents who brought her here when she was a young teen, and now she faces deportation to Guatemala, a country that took her family's land and that she hasn't seen for 15 years. How is that right?

      If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people. --Tony Benn

      by rhetoricus on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:11:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I did not say it was right. But as I said you (0+ / 0-)

        cannot reward people for breaking the law.  How do you allow this person special compensation when there are long lines of people waiting to get into this counry legally.

        •  An 8-year-old is supposed to look around, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wsexson, rhetoricus

          say, "Wait, I'm not here legally," and trek back to Mexico or wherever on his own?

          It's not a black and white situation, and we don't have to force black and white thinking on it.

          The reality is, we cannot deport all these people.  There are simply too many millions.  But, the people who were brought here as kids?  This is their country, not the country of their birth.  They love it here, they want to serve this country and they want to be productive citizens.  This isn't something to wring our hands over, this is something to celebrate, that we have such dedicated, devoted, interested kids.  And socially we gain every benefit from allowing them to become productive members of society rather than having to live on the fringes for a choice they didn't make themselves.

          If you must go after someone for breaking the law, then go after the parents who actively broke it.

        •  Well, this person was brought here against (0+ / 0-)

          her control when she was a child, that's why, when her family's property was seized in the war in Guatemala. Her father was given refugee status, then died. Mayra was left a parentless teen here, with no home to go back to. She works 3 jobs, put herself through school, and faces deportation to a country that stole her family's land.

          If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people. --Tony Benn

          by rhetoricus on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:55:03 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I Can Sort Of Understand (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irmaly, elfling, divineorder

    voting against the bill in a state where a "yes" vote could kill you politically (I'm looking at MY Senator Kay Hagan).  

    But I can't understand at all voting with the Republicans to keep an up or down majority vote from even happening (Again, Hagan I'm looking at you).  

    They could have allowed the moral side to win while still voting against the bill itself for their own political cover if needed.  But no....they really, really wanted to kill it. Proving that they really ARE assholes, no just expedient toads.  

    And I will remember this when Ms. Hagan comes asking me for money and time.

  •  MT resident here: (8+ / 0-)

    Sure you can be pissed.  Sure you can not help Tester get re-elected.  However, remember, Tester got rid of Conrad Burns.

    However, this is Montana.  Have you any idea what kind of lunatic you're going to get instead of Tester when the Republicans win?  For crying out loud, even the libertairian candidate is BLUE:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/...

    The standard isn't perfection, the standard is the alternative.

  •  Disagree (5+ / 0-)

    He is electable in Montana.  Blanche Lincoln is a different story.  She was a bad candidate and a more electable Progressive Democrat was running against her.  Unless progressives can field a more electable alternative to Tester, we are just wasting our time and causing more damage in the process.

  •  I never understood Kos's man-crush on Tester (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    esquimaux, yesdevkmem

    in the first place. Sure, he has a "D" after his name and he has a cool haircut, but that's about it.

    I'm glad he won in 2006 because Conrad Burns is a fucking asshole, and I hope he's reelected in 2012 because any alternative would be far worse, but, to put it mildly, he's not one of my favorites.

  •  I feel the same way about Hagan. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    irmaly, elfling

    This was personal to me as one of my closest friends' daughters would have benefited with this bill. Here's some snippets from a couple of local articles about the child we don't want to give an opportunity to become an American Citizen.

    Diana Carranza, whose family moved to Charlotte from Mexico 11 years ago, was named winner today of Communities in Schools Leadership Award for 2010.
    ---
    Carranza, who has a 4.03 grade-point average (on a 5.0 scale), plans to attend UNC Charlotte next year and major in nursing.

    http://www.charlotteobserver.com/...

    Diana Carranza was the queen bee Wednesday.

    Minutes after West Charlotte High School alumnus Isaiah Scott urged a gathering of 422 high school seniors to be like bumblebees and defy the skeptics, Carranza was presented the top annual award from Communities In Schools, a support organization for students who frequently surprise the doubters.

    Carranza, 17, is a senior at E.E. Waddell High School. She and her parents spoke little English when they moved from Mexico to Charlotte about 11 years ago.

    But she mastered English - and a lot of other subjects. She ranks sixth in her class of 178 seniors at Waddell, carries a 4.03 grade-point average (on a 5.0 scale), and is active in school and community organizations.

    "She is really, really smart, and she's a really good person," said a friend, Waddell senior Valeria Bermeja.

    http://www.charlotteobserver.com/...

  •  gee (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wsexson, esquimaux, emilysdad

    Kos, will you be updating the Tester's the Greatest chapter in Taking on the System (or was it Crashing the Gate)?

    Seeing Dems back in power (?) has been watching the definition of "disillusionment" in action ...

  •  Thanks for saying this (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pd, valadon, wsexson

    I have a friend from Guatemala whose family's home and property was seized in the war, so they fled to the US. She was 15. Now she's almost 30, has put herself through school, and is facing deportation to a country that took her family's land and has nothing for her.

    If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people. --Tony Benn

    by rhetoricus on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:10:20 AM PST

  •  he will lose anyway.. (0+ / 0-)

    I am in Montana a lot and he is not well liked.

  •  Why is it... (0+ / 0-)

    ... that so many Democrats think that acting like Republicans is a good thing politically or for the nation?

    It drives me absolutely nuts.

    The inadequate is the enemy of the necessary.

    by JRandomPoster on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:11:11 AM PST

  •  Tester and Manchin are assholes (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bmor

    The DEMs killed the dream act, this one can't be blamed on the repugs this time

    Message to President Obama: FIGHT MAN FIGHT!!!!

    by jtown on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:12:01 AM PST

    •  Really? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      roubs

      90% of Democrats voted for the bill and 7% of Republicans, and you say it can't be blamed on the Republicans? Of course, tomorrow you'll scream about the horrible messaging of the Democrats.
      Oh, right, and about just bringing bill up to a vote and 'fighting'. Which accomplishes really much as we've just seen.

      Support Dennis McDonald and Montana Democrats in the 2010 election!

      by twohundertseventy on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:19:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  How do you know Tester was against DREAM? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Govinda, yesdevkmem, JonathanMN

    Let me offer a scenario.  Say it was 40 to 59 and it was Tester's turn to vote.  Would he still have voted against it?  I'm not so sure.

    He took the politically beneficial route on a bill that was going to fail anyways.

  •  he joins many blu dgs afraid of the radio army (0+ / 0-)

    Progressives will lose all major messaging battles until they picket the limbaugh/hannity megastations and boycott those stations' local sponsors.

    by certainot on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:12:54 AM PST

  •  or Testor could have martyred himself, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Govinda

    voted for DREAM, and gotten tossed out by his constitutents in the next election

    "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

    by Sybil Liberty on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:14:11 AM PST

    •  or he could have taken a stand (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wsexson

      and tried to educate his voters.  

      In the sea, Biscayne, there prinks
      The young emerald evening star,
      Good light for drunkards, poets, widows,
      And ladies soon to be married.

      by looty on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:28:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is not the first time I've disliked one of (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        looty

        Testor's votes. I'm sure it won't be the last. I have no reason to believe this senator hasn't attempted to "educate his voters". He's not operating in a blue state. The option in that state is another Republican and/or a Ben Nelson facsimile.

        "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

        by Sybil Liberty on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:48:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Or Sen. Tester could have voted (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wsexson, sable, Darkpoole

      yes on a procedural vote to end debate and then vote no on the actual bill. The idea that these votes should be the same is a recent fiction created by the Republican Party for its benefit.

      •  The closure vote is the BIG problem (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Treg

        The DREAM Act vote wasn't a floor vote, it was a closure vote. It was the Senate taking a vote to say "enough debate, let's vote on this." There were 55 votes for closure, and FIVE Democrats who voted against it. If all five had gone the other way, the bill would have gone to the floor for a vote.

        For a Democrat to vote against closure on a Democratic bill is unforgivable, in my view. It's one thing to say "all right, it's time for a vote" and then to vote against the final bill because 80% of your constituents are against it. You argue against it on the floor, cast a no vote, criticize the bill to the press afterward, and then go home and say "I voted against the DREAM Act" when running for re-election. I really don't have a problem with Democrats voting against the party on individual bills. They may have honest reasons to oppose something most of their party supports.

        But to help Republicans block a bill that is supported by a solid majority of your own party? That's the sort of thing that SHOULD lead to a primary challenge and a complete cutoff of DSCC money in the general election. Democrats really need to get in the habit of harshly punishing any member of their own party who actively obstructs the party's legislative agenda.

  •  I have a feeling... (0+ / 0-)

    That if all the Democrats would have voted for cloture that one or two more Republicans would have voted against this.

    This has the feeling of a political set up to me.

  •  this is personal for kos - I can understand, but (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dvd Avins, missliberties

    ... ... ...

  •  I certainly can't blame you (0+ / 0-)

    I'd imagine that many in the Latino community have taken note.

    We take a step forward and we fall two behind.

  •  A disappointing vote (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dvd Avins, treehugger, Mariken

    and you don't have to boost his campaign, but don't bash him whenever you get the chance.  He's one of the few senators opposed to the PATRIOT Act.

    Cold hearted orb/That rules the night/Removes the colours From our sight/Red is gray and/Yellow white/But we decide/Which is right/And/Which is an Illusion

    by KingofSpades on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:18:08 AM PST

  •  On conscience and honesty. (0+ / 0-)

    Face it.  Most of the people in the House and Senate stink.  They proved it when they all became lap dogs and voted to give the GOP everything they want.  I can't wait till they call me and ask that I volunteer again.

  •  Sounds like you won't be doing much in 2012 (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jim J

    What's left? Massachusetts, Tennessee, Maine, Nevada and Utah?

    •  I probably won't vote either. (0+ / 0-)

      I live in Connecticut and it's not too bad here.  I like Massachusetts too.  It's not far.  This country has become ugly.  They should be ashamed of doing this to children, but these people are never ashamed of stepping on people they consider to be weak, but they're on their best behavior when it comes to the rich and powerful.  What cowards.

  •  Denied the right of debate on the issue. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wsexson, trinite

    that is been the problem. Tester get your ass on the floor like Sen. Sanders and explain why your against this bill make a case..No you hide behind this filibuster rule. Chicken Shits at their best.

    Doing nothing is very easy for Republican party to do ... you never know when there finished. Me 2009

    by army193 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:19:18 AM PST

    •  Exactly. He's a coward (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      army193

      Don't like the bill?  Fine, don't vote Yes.  

      Helping GOP obstruct is nothing but yellow bellied cowardice.

      In the sea, Biscayne, there prinks
      The young emerald evening star,
      Good light for drunkards, poets, widows,
      And ladies soon to be married.

      by looty on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:26:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  His enviro record still seems good (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    treehugger

    so he's still net positive for every human on the planet.

    Life is less stressful when you realize that Obama is a Republican in "D" clothing.

    by The Dead Man on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:21:20 AM PST

  •  What the hell is wrong with these cowards (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MJB, valadon, GrumpyOldGeek

    Seriously some of them are openly racist and you cant expect racist scum not to be racist scum.

    But killing the DREAM act??? Noone with a Mind or morals could possibly oppose it. It isnt even immigration reform. Its is righting a huge societal injustice. It is giving people whove spent their entire lives in this nation, who are as american as anyone in congress, the rights they should have had as children.

    Anyone opposing the dream act is either a flat out racist or such a narcissistic weasel  scumbag they dont deserve to hold government office. If we ever needed proof sociopathic personality disorder pushes one towards positions of power this is it.

    Voters will choose a person who fights a losing battle for his principles over one who fights winning battles against them every time.

    by cdreid on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:23:10 AM PST

  •  Not.One.Dime (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    valadon

    will be going to Tester after his no vote on the DREAM Act. And that goes double for Hagan in NC!

    "That's quite a jump. But you keep it up, I'm sure one day you'll clear that shark."

    by Steve In DC on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:24:31 AM PST

  •  Get real, people (6+ / 0-)

    I live in the great state of Montana.  I don't like some of Testers votes any more than you do.  BUT, he is by far, the best we are going to get from this state.

    If not Tester in 2012, we will get a stupider version of Denny Rehberg as our Junior Senator and then we can pat ourselves on the back for being a Purist?  For crying out loud...

    •  Have you ever told Tester what you don't like? (0+ / 0-)

      Anyone who attacks children who don't deserve it is a coward, and worse.  This isn't going to change until people stand up and demand that it change, but it's easy to step on anyone who's weak.

    •  Uh-uh (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wsexson

      'Get real' is surrender.  This is not being a purist, this is putting our foot down and saying "No More!"

      He is by far the best we are going to get from this state.

      I am also from Montana.  I grew up in Deer Lodge, went to the University of Montana for my degrees, and have lived most of the last ten years living in Helena.  I am not yelling at you, montanagal, and please make no mistake that I'm dismissive of your opinion.  It's just that I disagree vehemently with the idea that we HAVE to settle for mediocre DINOs any longer.  I agree that the reality of lethargy and apathy in the Montana electorate practically makes electing DINOs inevitable. Progressivism in Montana truly is a constant and uphill fight.

      If you don't mind Tester as our Senator (overall), that's your right and I don't begrudge you it.

      I, however, know more than a few progressives in Helena who would not water down their principles to get more votes.  I want to work for them, should they decide to primary Tester in 2012.  I'm well beyond working up enthusiasm for someone who can't see that the DREAM Act is a good thing, a decent thing, the sort of legislation we can be proud to support.

      Way to go, Max and Jon.  Your compassion underwhelms me.

      "The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea."--Isak Dineson

      by Mongo DeNizen on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:44:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I am sad but not surprised (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    trinite

    I called his office early in the week to voice my support for the Dream Act.  I asked if the senator had decided his position or was sitting on the fence but when I heard the word amnesty I knew I was wasting my time.  He will IMHO have a difficult time getting reelected in 2012.  I am hoping there will be an amendment on the ballot that will bring out the young voters.  I too am wondering what to do with the Christmas postcard I got....I think I will take it to his local office and tell them why I am giving it back.  Also, most  likely no campaign contributions next time around.

  •  It's not always about electability (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    defluxion10

    What eve happened to standing on principle and conviction? Clearly Tester has neither.

    Thanks for having the courage to call someone out that you once supported. Tough position to be in but Tester needs to be called on it. What's the use of having a Dem there if he can't be counted on come vote time? Disgusting. And they wonder why the Dem base is depressed and demoralized.

    I have no snarky e-signature!

    by bakerkm45 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:31:31 AM PST

  •  He's also pushing to end protection of wolves (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    defluxion10, wsexson, rvb909400
    in MT and other areas.   He and Baucus are co-sponsors of one of a couple of bills to de-list wolves from endangered species list.

    My Karma just ran over your Dogma

    by FoundingFatherDAR on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:32:37 AM PST

  •  Uh, could you take Baucus down with him, please? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    defluxion10, GrumpyOldGeek

    Both Montana senators voted against the DREAM act, and as I watched that on C-SPAN, I had to ask myself, why is it that the United States is so often held hostage to the backward few in barely populated states like Montana and Wyoming? It's cruelly unfair, and we need to do something about it. At least they have fewer reps in the house, but for a Baucus or a Tester or an Alan Simpson to carry the weight they do in national politics is just unconscionable, not to mention the former VP of the US, who came from Wyoming, too.

    "That story is not worth the paper it's rotten on."--Dorothy Parker

    by martyc35 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:50:06 AM PST

  •  This is punishing the next generation (0+ / 0-)

    of innocents. Something Congress is very good at doing with its regressive legislation. Their slogan should be We Lean backwards.

    "The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today." -Franklin D.Roosevelt

    by bmor on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 11:50:25 AM PST

  •  Sen. Tester should have voted yes on (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    defluxion10, sable

    cloture to support democracy and allow an up-or-down vote, and then if he wanted to vote no on the actual bill that would have been okay. However, voting to support a Republican filibuster on this issue is unacceptable.

  •  Markos, I believe Tester owes you an (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    defluxion10, GrumpyOldGeek

    explanation for his vote.  I certainly would like to hear his rationale.  Personally, I don't see any chance he could persuade me but I would nevertheless like for him to make his case.  Like you and because of you, I supported him in 2006 but I doubt I will do so in 2012.  If he responds to you, please let us know.

  •  Seriously? (0+ / 0-)

    I'd rather have Tester than the alternative, which would almost surely be a Republican.  

  •  It's always disappointing... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    defluxion10

    ...when you find out that someone you thought was, on the whole, a fairly good person turns out to be a garden variety racist. But it happens because this is, at its base, a racist country. All you have to do is look at the reactions to Obama to figure that out. This DREAM Act vote is simply another manifestation of the nation's deep-seated racism.

  •  One Disgusted Montanan Agrees with Kos (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Fishgrease, wsexson, Steve In DC

    Back in 2006, I remember your advocacy for Tester.  I thought it was so cool for a Montana Dem to get such support from the netroots.  You may have advocated for Tester, Kos, but I voted for him and I'm done with him too. I lost Max for good with the health care reform fiasco.
      And the shame of it is, we used to have terrific Montana Democrats, Mike Mansfield being one of our shining examples.  Where have all the progressives gone?  The leaders?  I knocked on doors for Tester on Election Day 2006 -- but no more. The Montana Democratic Party has lost me (not that they'll sob, I imagine) but if more of us walk, they won't have their donations and foot soldiers.  It may mean more Republican hegemony, but I can't support what Democrats have become here.

    "The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea."--Isak Dineson

    by Mongo DeNizen on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:23:43 PM PST

  •  Indeed (0+ / 0-)
    I'd support a primary for Tester. Not even a credible one. Just something to wound him enough for him to lose. Until we exercise the same sort of control that the Republican base does over their party (through fear), we'll always face close votes on no-brainer issues (like the DREAM Act and DADT Repeal, which should have gotten 90+ votes) and no votes on "liberal" policy ideas, which are still wildly popular (the public option, actually defending Social Security and Medicare, a more progressive taxation system, etc.)

    I also don't particularly care for the false dilemma between having 30 liberals and a majority. There are enough blue states to have way more liberals, and enough leverage and room to have bluer blue dogs.

    The facts are simple: the GOP has completely outmaneuvered us during these last few years. We can joke about how they're mouth-breathing fundamentalist idiots, but they completely kicked our asses in the legislative sense. Why? Because as Nate Silver (among others) has documented, they're a parliamentary party, whilst we still keep some Blue Dogs around.

    Now, I don't mind Blue Dogs, or even the idea of conservative Democrats. I do mind when they screw us on simple cloture votes.

    If Tester had any sense, he would have voted for cloture and then made a big deal of voting for the bill proper (which had 51 votes guaranteed anyhow) if he wanted to play for the xenophobes and nativists back in Montana.

    Those making excuses for him on this issue are over-estimating how damaging this would be for him. Senators from similarly conservative states (like Louisiana) voted for it. Senators from states with substantial illegal immigration issues voted for it (like the Udall cousins, Bennet, etc.)

    Tester's vote undercuts our national message (Democrats are the party that doesn't hate Latinos), is unnecessary, and is frankly a total asshole move. Trying to win reelection on the back of kids should never be acceptable. Ever.

    As far as whether it's worth losing him in 2012? Absolutely. Our "majority" in the Senate has seldom been a working one, and politically speaking, it makes Democrats look weaker if they have a technical majority but not a working one. Primary or let Tester lose. Move other Democrats to the left.

    Waiting for demographic change isn't enough. And I think we're understating how well more progressive Democrats could run in redder states. Olympia Snowe is to the right of any Democrat's voting record (including Ben Nelson.) Why does she survive in Maine? Incumbency, an incompetent Democratic establishment that can't ever call her to task, etc.

    The same happened with Blanche Lincoln vis-a-vis derivatives reform. The funny thing, of course, is that Lincoln is probably one of the less objectionable Blue Dogs, but politics is a messy business.

    So yes. Run more progressive Democrats in the generals, be unafraid to cut off Blue Dogs who have displeased us (if it takes some short-term pain for long-term gain, I'm all for it), and replace moderate Democrats in blue states. We need to master the intricacies of the Overton window. Even failed general/primary bids in Red States with more progressive Democrats can gradually lead to a normalization of "liberal" ideas.

  •  I used to insist that there were no (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wsexson

    "test votes" in Congress I would hold any candidate to, in order to give my money or support. I was wrong. This is one. Even if Tester traded this vote for something else, this one isn't trade-able.

    Markos is right on target. Fuck Tester.

    It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

    by Fishgrease on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:29:17 PM PST

  •  Tester has always been an a-hole (0+ / 0-)

    If you follow conservation at all, you'd know this already.

  •  Whatever (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CornSyrupAwareness
    Kos is getting his panties in a knot about this.  It didn't come down to Tester's vote, he probably got off the hook from leadership to vote for it because he's facing an uphill reelection in 2012.  I'm Latino and the son of Latin American immigrants; anyone who thinks some Palin clone would be better in Jon Tester's seat is nuts and ought to seriously reevaluate their opinion.

    Take care of all humanity as if they were your brothers and sisters.

    by skidrow on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:31:08 PM PST

    •  He is entitled to his opinion (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      skidrow

      Kos insisted, right from the beginning, that Tester was a man of principle. And he convinced many people here to vote for him. Now Kos feels personally betrayed.
      And he's allowed.  

      Bluto was a big bully. If not for spinach, Popeye would've been his bitch.

      by steelman on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 12:39:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  My E-Mail to Senator Tester (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Steve In DC

    Dear Senator Tester,

    I am not one of your constituents, but I am someone who has deeply admired you for your work in the senate.  Until today.  I have read that you were one of five Democrats who opposed cloture on this act.

    I can accept that Republicans would vote against this bill; to be a Republican today is to be a racist.  I cannot accept any Democrat voting against this bill, and even worse, a Democrat who until today has always supported Progressive, Liberal, goals. Words cannot express how deeply disappointed I am in you, by your vote on this act.  

    Today, you are one of five Senators, who have no excuse to not know better, who helped destroy the dreams of people who want to become Americans.  These young people are American residents by choice of their parents, but are asking for the right to become full Americans by their choice.

    Shame on you.

  •  Tester on DREAM reminds me of WJC on welfare (0+ / 0-)

    There are compromises people can make; and there are lines politicians cannot cross.

    I donated to Tester. Ferget it next time round.

  •  Curious Turnaround. (0+ / 0-)

    Previous the lingo was always that we had to take the best we could get or we were looking for ponies. I guess when they turn down something you want, then the story changes. Lincoln, Tester, Hagen, Pryor, the whole lot of them aren't worthy of the name Democrat. Not one dime, not one phone call,for them or any of their ilk. Nothing. And I don't care if they are from Idaho, Georgia, or Massachusetts. If you want Democratic support, by an effing Democrat.

    When I perceive the fight to be rigged, I don't wanna grow up. The Ramones

    by tgrshark13 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 01:28:38 PM PST

  •  My asshole senator didn't bother to show up (0+ / 0-)

    Judd Gregg (AH-NH). Of course he's a poster child of lame duck assholitude.

    Some things make me long for the days when duels settled such assholitudanimity.

    Tester? I expect demand an explanation. Something besides racism or irrational fear, perhaps.

    "All people are born alike - except Republicans and Democrats" - Groucho Marx

    by GrumpyOldGeek on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 01:38:38 PM PST

  •  Yeah lets get Conrad Burns and Libby Dole back (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CornSyrupAwareness

    So Tester's vote sucked on this but by and large he's been there for us and the alternatives to Tester and Hagan are so much worse. I've always kind of liked Tester. This is just juvenile to punish everyone who disappoints us ever.  We're light years away from a Senate of Wellstones and Sanders and until then we need the center and we need to demonstrate to the center just how crazy and extreme the Rs are.  Ed Schultz was even lambasting Franken for his vote on the tax bill.  Must we eat our own?

  •  I would've been more gung-ho... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CornSyrupAwareness

    about what you said, had the netroots matured to the point where we could actually do something positive about this.  But we utterly failed in 2010.  Show me a race that we ended up winning in November where the netroots made the difference.

    Seemed more like we gave a shitload of money to Alan Grayson, who used that money to get destroyed by 18 points.

  •  Why write off Tester? (0+ / 0-)

    I support DREAM Act 100 percent, as well as DADT repeal, etc.

    But it seems to me that, once tempers have cooled, an assessment of who/what is likely to get elected in Montana if Tester goes down to defeat should be a mitigating factor.

    I understand primarying someone in a blue state who is to the right of their constituencies or who you have a reasonable chance of supplanting with someone more acceptable.

    But Montana?  Someone from Montana can educate me on this if I am wrong.  But my understanding is that Montana is a state Democrats should be very happy to hold with anyone to the left of Attila the Hun.

  •  Kos (0+ / 0-)

    He is from Montanan for chrissake! Yeah this is a big bummer, but things take time.

    I have a friend in Arizona who says the atmospherics down there really have changed.

    A lot of folks are terrified of the Drug Lords.

    ~a little change goes a long way~

    by missliberties on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 03:18:37 PM PST

  •  All of their "true colors" are starting to come (0+ / 0-)

    through.

    We, the people, know what needs to be done.  

    People before Party.

    Enough.

    Hey Boehner and the Republicans: WHERE ARE THOSE JOBS YOU PROMISED????

    by LamontCranston on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 05:14:06 PM PST

  •  What's a DREAM Act? (0+ / 0-)

    Oscar:  What's a DREAM Act MacIntosh?
    MacIntosh:  Lady Gaga and Groucho Marx playing Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton.  Why do you ask?

    http://macintosh-and-oscar.com/...

  •  Not to mention the FJRA. (0+ / 0-)

    I spent election day going door to door in Upper Grant Creek for him in the rain.  I will never do that ever again, for anyone.

  •  I was very confused by this, then I realized (0+ / 0-)

    How many Latino voters in Montana? Um, like, hardly any?

    There are likely many more bigoted assholes in the Democratic side of the Senate, but, they live in states with significant-to-huge Latino populations. So, their bigotry gets trumped by raw political calculation: represent the voters who elected you, and, if you want to get re-elected, don't fuck with Latinos.

    But not Montana. or Nebraska, apparently. There are no armies of Latino activists there ready to withhold campaign donations, on-the-ground organizing, or GOTV, apparently, in those states.

    I wish there were better whipping technologies for progressives. Blogs don't work for this kind of thing, too cumbersome. It'd be nice if there were a database somewhere on these kinds of votes!!!! If there were, then, instead of calling Feinstein and Boxer who most certainly were going to vote for this, I could have been calling Tester, who I donated money to in 2006.

    I think the netroots blew this one. We could have gotten that vote if we'd been organized and flexed our muscle. But we didn't. All the fucking emails I got on this told me to call Feinstein and Boxer. Nothing in my inbox-- not from ActBlue, who KNOWS GODDAMNED WELL THAT I GAVE TO TESTER-- or anyone else, asked me to call him.

    This is an organizing opportunity for the netroots. Groups like ActBlue who have a database of donations, need to whip votes, then mine that database when key votes come up, and give us all a heads up that the guy or gal we gave money to is going renegade and needs to be reined in.

    •  That is part of what is wrong with (0+ / 0-)

      the US Senate.

      Montana has fewer than one million people and two Senators that don't want the DREAM Act, but California has more than 37 million people and really needs DREAM and also only has two Senators.

      Letting it pass wouldn't even cause a problem for Montana, but for some damned reason the bigotry of a tiny number of people gets to stymie policy for the whole country.

  •  It's just business, Sonny (0+ / 0-)

    With a little over 2 percent Hispanic population in Montana, Tester and Baucus had little to gain by voting in favor of DREAM. The issue isn't going away and a better bill is possible.
    Tester's still got my vote.
    It's Baucus who's got to go, for 1) Voting to authorize the Iraq invasion and 2) Totally selling out health care reform.

  •  Not good (0+ / 0-)

    I am mad at all 5 of these Senators.  They cost us the DREAM Act -- not the GOP (rare, I know)

    Barack Obama for President '08

    by v2aggie2 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 at 07:16:08 PM PST

  •  i agree w/you~! (0+ / 0-)

    i agree w/you completely~

  •  But It's Not 'Their' Country (0+ / 0-)

    ..score political points off the backs of innocent kids who want to go to college or serve their country in the military.

    How, exactly, is the United States their country Kos?  They're innocent, to be sure, but you've got the wrong assholes.  The assholes are the parents who are in our country, with their children, illegally.  That these innocents are children is indeed unfortunate, but they are the collateral damage of their parents' asshole-ism, not that of Americans trying to uphold American law.  Why don't you point some of your heated rhetoric at the law-breakers Kos?  There is such a thing as destructive compassion and your position on DREAM and the individuals who correctly sunk it is a perfect illustration.

    •  They are my neighbors (0+ / 0-)

      and they have lived here most of their lives. This is (de facto) their country every bit as much as it is mine. Good law must reflect facts as they are.

      •  What a Stupid Argument (0+ / 0-)

        So because your law-breaker neighbors have managed to evade the INS for most of their lives we should just forget that they're law-breakers then?  Beautiful.  But why stop there?  If someone commits murder (or any crime, frankly) and manages to go uncaught for most of their life then they too should be granted amnesty - facts being what they are - in your enlightened little progressive world, right?  I mean, a killer who subsequently leads 20 or 30 years of law-abiding life would be a de facto law-abiding citizen by then, right?  Wrong.  Your neighbors, as with the murderer, are still law-breakers 20 or 30 years after the fact (de jure) and whether they (or you) consider this 'their' country or not is irrelevant.

  •  Thank you Kos; great irate post! (0+ / 0-)
  •  Kos is now officially the tea party of the left (0+ / 0-)

    One must agree with the entire agenda, or you're a worthless piece of shit.  Even one diversion from liturgy means excommunication.  

    An excellent strategy for handing the government over to the Republicans.  Mitch McConnell thanks you!

  •  Failure of the big tent (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    standupguy
    You know, when it was abortion or women's rights, we hear that it's important that we elect Democrats, and now, it's more important that they act like Democrats. I hope Kos remembers this when it's other groups of Democrats that they're trying to hurt. I'd much rather see Democrats remembering who they're representing than this big tent philosophy where we fight for every Democrat, even those that don't care about any of us. Every group of people in this country needs to be represented - not just rich white Christian men, like the Republicans are so inclined to support.
  •  Baucus should be primaried first (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jhwygirl

    People outside Montana need to realize how overwhelming the Republican wave here was this year. Until November the Montana House was 50-50; the GOP now controls two-thirds of the seats. Everybody good lost outside of the very safest districts, including the most accomplished and effective true progressive in the state, Public Service Commissioner Ken Toole. I offer that by way of explanation, not justification. Easy to yak when you're not the one trying to stave off a Republican majority in the US Senate.

    In any case, Baucus should be primaried long before Tester. And for that matter, Tester's positions (and his style) are in general far preferable to Gov. Schweitzer, whom Kos has often extolled, to the mystification of Montana progressives. We're counting on Schweitzer, nevertheless, to veto what will be an unending series of terrible bills coming out of the legislature, particularly on environmental issues. We'll see how he does.

    Jon Tester is the most progressive statewide elected official in the state. We can thank our lucky stars he wasn't up for re-election this year. But the disastrous results of the 2010 elections in Montana should make us realize how much work we have to do in the next two years. That may mean making sure Senator Tester understands our objections, but it certainly doesn't mean abandoning him.

  •  Are we gonna (0+ / 0-)

    get the ones that cost us single payer or PO.  That was more important to me.

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