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Thanks Kos seems like we can talk about all our interests now, and I’ve published a diary or 3 around here on the subject, but now…heck leave your skepticism at the door, or if you want to be a skeptic fine!  Just be nice about it and if we are going to talk politics it will be exo-politics.

So when we last talked we had just found out about The FBI Vault Is Open! Which is a fantastic search tool recently brought online by our FBI that provides the files that the public requests most frequently in a really neat one stop shop. The Memo that Admits ET is Real and Roswll Happened was the document that was really fascinating to me.  Although it had existed in the public record before this was it’s first airing among the wider internet public.

This week however we had a real disclosure so to speak from our CIA in the form of a previously secret memo that states John Fitzgerald Kennedy demanded information on UFO phenomenon just 10 days before his assassination.

An uncovered letter written by John F Kennedy to the head of the CIA shows that the president demanded to be shown highly confidential documents about UFOs 10 days before his assassination.
The secret memo is one of two letters written by JFK asking for information about the paranormal on November 12 1963, which have been released by the CIA for the first time.
Author William Lester said the CIA released the documents to him under the Freedom of Information Act after he made a request while researching his new book 'A Celebration of Freedom: JFK and the New Frontier.'

Daily Mail link

The article goes on to speculate that President Kennedy was concerned that the Soviet Union was also observing unidentified phenomenon and might be tempted to believe it was America behind it, and that Kennedy wanted the information in order to assure the Soviets that it wasn’t us.  It also goes on to tie this memo to another that has not been vetted and is not public the “burned memo”.

The story behind that is that purportedly a CIA asset was assisting in the destruction of documents by burning them spotted the burned memo and pulled it out, later to sell it to a collector.  In it a figure referred to as Lancer (President Kennedy’s Secret Service call sign) is said to be requesting information regarding extra terrestrial activity and that is something, the official ominously states cannot be allowed to happen.

The hottest compilation on Youtube in this past week is this one of media reports of what is being described as a mass wave sighting.

The people at worldstarhiphop posted this video and now all the kids are running around discussing UFO's.  That's one way to get them into math and science.

This one was very interesting to me, I had always known the Minister Farrakahn was a believer in UFO phenomenon however last week he placed the Nation of Islam firmly behind the idea with this interview with Jamie Maussan.

Updated by Adept2u at Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 05:39 PM PDT

I'm happy to announce I've decided to take This Week In UFO Phenomenon a little wider and have set up a group.  So if this is at all your thing make sure to hit the little heart.  http://www.dailykos.com/...


Originally posted to An Adept's Journey on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 04:38 PM PDT.

Also republished by The Week In UFO Phenomenon.

Poll

Do you believe the Government will one day "disclose"?

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Comment Preferences

  •  Our best news sources can't spot a UBO in Hawaii. (11+ / 0-)

    (Unidentified Birthcertificate Object)

    "There's nothing in the dark that's not there when the lights are on" ~ Rod Serling

    by jwinIL14 on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 04:46:40 PM PDT

  •  Beam me Up! (7+ / 0-)

    Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

    by Adept2u on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 04:49:36 PM PDT

  •  Well (8+ / 0-)

    this explains everything then.

    When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it? Eleanor Roosevelt

    by IndyRobin on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 04:56:36 PM PDT

  •  The interesting thing about Kennedy requesting... (15+ / 0-)

    ... to see the classified docs, is:

    Not that it has anything to do with his assassination.  I'm sure the timing was a pure coincidence, no snark intended.

    But the fact that a president had to go through a procedure to request access.  By definition the president is cleared to top secret with all the SCI tabs; in other words s/he can see anything s/he damn well wants to see.  

    The fact that Kennedy had to jump through some hoops along the way demonstrates how seriously the US Gov took this stuff.

    This should not be surprising at the height of the Cold War, when one of the contending theories about these objects was "advanced Soviet aircraft that can penetrate our air defenses at will."  

    •  I'm not sure this is significant (5+ / 0-)

      Looking at the link with the memos, this doesn't sound to me like any sort of unusual jumping through hoops.

      It reads to me much like any time one of my bosses wants info or a report.  There's no question of me denying the request - it is not really a request.  It's just that they don't keep the zillions of files in their own offices to look at themselves (and of course in JFK's time there really wasn't anything like the computers we've got now), so somebody has to pull the files for them, perhaps prepare the date in a preferred report format.

      How else would JFK had indicated he wanted the information given to him, since he didn't have this stuff at his fingertips in the Oval Office?  I didn't see anything where there's an additional form of some sort in which some other government official actually had to write "Approved" or "Denied" and might actually have denied the request of the president.  Did I miss something?

      •  no, i missed something: (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theatre goon, Adept2u, dinazina

        The ease with which information is retrieved today, compared to how it was fifty years ago.  

        At which point I'll downgrade my hypothesis to say only that the topic would have been of interest to any president having to deal with the realities of the cold war.  

        Here's the thing:

        If they are Soviet aircraft, and you say you think they're ETs, then you've just given the Soviets the keys to the proverbial kingdom, to attack at will.  This destabilizes international relations.

        If they are not Soviet aircraft, and you say you think they are, then the Soviets hear this and think "uh-oh, the Americans are looking for an excuse to attack us!" and that also destabilizes international relations.  

        So, damned if you do and damned if you don't.  Thus the "only way out" is to pooh-pooh the whole topic while continuing to collect reports behind the scenes and keeping all of it classified as hell.  

        When the US Gov finally dumps everything it has on the table, what we're going to find won't be pictures of ET shaking hands with a General, it'll be all kinds of stuff about whether this or that object could be a Soviet device.  This material really is of critical significance to Cold War historians.

        •  Right? At the very least... (0+ / 0-)

          ...As President-elect, Kennedy (and Obama) should have been fully briefed on this, and all information available presented to him, up front, as a very high priority, early on, seems to me.

          He shouldn't have had to request it, that's for sure.

          But, then, maybe he was, more or less, briefed...perhaps even dismissively of the topic...and he subsequently decided to pursue it further.

          We can only speculate.

          Full disclosure of all the details is necessary now, seems to me, and I'm inclined to salute the Total Transparency President for making this available.  

          Of course, such new information can only lead to further questions, and speculation, heh...  Now, we REALLY want to KNOW, Everthing, Every freakin' thing.

          I'm not necessarily so sure this topic is unrelated to Kennedy's assassination.  I would put nothing past the bastards surrounding him in the arenas of power and contention for power at that time.  

          Absolutely nothing, then, or now.

          Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

          by Radical def on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 10:50:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  huh didn't know you were interested in (6+ / 0-)

    UFO's adept! Me too, my fiancee as well. Its kind of a guilty pleasure for the reality based kossack (lmao!)

    but seriously...I am obsessed with UFO's. And crop circles. They blow my mind.

    New courses in ignorance available! Bagger 101: If it is good for the corporation, it is good for me. Bagger 201: I never got a job from a poor man. Bagger 301: Regulation inhibits free markets.

    by rexymeteorite on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 04:57:04 PM PDT

  •  BTW, the USSR had their own cases... (8+ / 0-)

    .... which they attributed to "unspecified capitalist aggressor nations," meaning us.   After a while the Soviet government declared that they did not exist, and threatened that anyone who reported such things would be confined to a psychiatric hospital or prosecuted for wasting government officials' time.

    The implications of the USA and USSR each thinking that their own local UFO sightings might be each others' stealth aircraft, are "really really interesting" in light of Cold War history.

    •  Hey G2 (4+ / 0-)

      I mentioned to Wendy that with the new more open Kos I want to make a group, and I'd very much it if you'd consider going in as an admin of it.

      Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

      by Adept2u on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 05:10:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  i don't even have time to write diaries. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Adept2u

        Today I was on here shooting off my moose quite a bit whilst waiting for a call from a client site about some extension moves that had to be coordinated with a third party, which I finally took care of around 6-something-ish.  

        But taking on any admin duties in particular: heh, I can barely keep track of my own utility bills.  Admin anything is my weakest weak-suit.  

        Thanks for the offer though.

    •  Body of dead alien found in Siberia (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Adept2u, blindyone, lincoln deschain

      "Just got a call from some blankety-blank saying he's found a real live dead alien body."

      If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people. --Tony Benn

      by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 05:35:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  great, do some testing. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BlackSheep1

        If there's flesh on the bones, there'll be something to analyze for the presence of DNA or equivalent molecules.  

        So either it's something that can be sent to a lab, or it's a hoax.

        •  We can't know (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Adept2u

          Anything on video can be faked. Human bodies can be faked. If it's real and govt's have a vested interest in keeping it secret, we'll be told it's a hoax. If it's true, I'm sure this ain't the first time, and I'm sure all the relevant lab coats already know it's true, and have a bunch of these bodies in a bunker somewhere.

          Governments don't tend to be forthcoming about things like this. So, I just watch my X-Files and laugh.

          If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people. --Tony Benn

          by rhetoricus on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 10:26:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  y'know what that *looks* like? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            theatre goon

            frozen child from about the same era as The Iceman.

            Long term cold storage dehydrates / dessicates soft tissues.

            LBJ & Lady Bird, Sully Sullenberger, Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan, Ann Richards, Drew Brees: Texas is No Bush League! -7.50,-5.59

            by BlackSheep1 on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 02:25:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think the "find" was 2-3 days (0+ / 0-)

              after all the alledged craft sightings, so not "long term" cold storage. That said, I thought they were sposed to be gray..

              If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people. --Tony Benn

              by rhetoricus on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 03:58:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  I'm sorry (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lepanto, Adept2u

        that thing looks like it's made out of imitation crab meat. I'm so tired of the hoaxes. It seems like when I was a kid, we had real ufos. Now everything is just some stupid internet video troll attempt. A million cameras to the skys and a million jokesters not helping.

        Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can.

        by lincoln deschain on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 10:32:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Also, tipped for that Mulder scream (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Adept2u, rhetoricus, BlackSheep1

          One of my favorite episodes..
          http://youtu.be/...

          Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can.

          by lincoln deschain on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 10:41:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Look at any picture of any crash (0+ / 0-)

          ..anywhere. Any video of any crash that had dead bodies. Then ask yourself, "could this picture have been faked? Could these bodies be fake?"

          Or, in other words, show me a picture or video of dead anything that couldn't have been faked. Does that mean it definitely was faked?

          Here's the problem. If it was real, you know and I know they aren't going to come out and say it was. Why would they? If it's real, it means they have ahold of alien technology, if they have a craft to reverse-engineer, and alien DNA, which could be useful for God knows what. Why would they advertise that to the world? The US sure as shootin' wouldn't. The biggest corporations would muscle in there and squirrel away the goods and do everything they could with it that could lead to money or power or both.

          So sit back and enjoy the fairy tale. That's what we'll be told it is, whether it is or not. The only way you'll ever really find out is if a craft crashes right in front of you, or you get abducted. And even if you were, some uniformed people would appear at your door and explain that you had a psychotic event involving a weather balloon. :)

          If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people. --Tony Benn

          by rhetoricus on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 12:21:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I've been interested in UFOs since the early (6+ / 0-)

    1950's. Done a great deal of research, written 3 books on the topic and believe we are certainly not alone in the vast Universe.

    Hope has a hole in it when Republicans come, bringing shackles and sorrow; branding their greed on the backs of the poor. - Wendy Connors

    by Wendys Wink on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 04:59:47 PM PDT

  •  No mention of the dead Russian alien? ;P (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Adept2u, Im with Rosey, theatre goon

    I ♥ President Barack Obama.

    by ericlewis0 on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 05:08:43 PM PDT

  •  First Really Good Book I Read Was Sagan's (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theatre goon, Adept2u, BlackSheep1

    early 70's book UFO's: a Scientific Debate. It summarized a conference of presenters from numerous different fields such as psychology, photography, sciences & tech.

    Sagan concludes with a cute essay called "The Santa Claus and Other Hypotheses" in which he demonstrates hypothesis testing. The flaw in applying that to some of the UFO hypothetical explanations is of course that it requires that we know all the important physics about getting from one place to another at astronomical distances.

    I think the book may have helped contribute to making it a little safer for various professional people to discuss phenomena without wholesale ridicule.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 05:20:22 PM PDT

    •  Sagan said this.... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theatre goon, Adept2u, Gooserock

      in one of the episodes of Cosmos. And of you course I'm paraphrasing here.....it is 4/20 after all....

      "There may be billions of planets out there with intelligent life.  Or we may be the first."  

      I have always felt that it is just as possible that we may be the first.  With our ability to now see planets around far away stars. I have begun to believe that there may be others....but as he said...we could be the first in the entire universe.  Someone had to be....

      "Aubrey, may I trouble you for the salt?"

      by Borg Warner on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 05:46:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I wish he had seen what Kepler saw (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gooserock, Borg Warner, BlackSheep1

        Not the astronomer the telescope.  With the discover of so many millions of habitable planets just in our Milky Way I think he may have had his math changed.

        Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

        by Adept2u on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 05:55:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think it would have too.... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Adept2u

          But our existence might be the most rare thing in the universe.  There may be a thousands, maybe millions of civilizations in our galaxy. That's microscopic compared to the Galaxy as a whole.

          We haven't discovered habitable planets....yet. Kepler has shown us things that fit into our present understanding of the Universe, stars and planet formation.  What we are seeing is with Kepler is fascinating, but it reveals more questions then answers. So far we are hypothesizing that some of the exoplanets planets are in the Goldilocks Zone of a star are in a postion to have liquid water.  I think that is very cool... and so would Sagan.

          "Aubrey, may I trouble you for the salt?"

          by Borg Warner on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 05:35:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Just a Variant on Uniqueness Which Seems Crazy (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Adept2u, nickrud, BlackSheep1

        given that we know we're 3rd-4th generation star or so; those kinds of environments are littered around our galaxy and probably most.

        We can't be the first such neighborhood to arise.

        I'm one who thinks our situation is impossibly rare, because we seem to have a double core thanks to the collision that created the moon, so more magnetic field and plate tectonics than we deserved; the moon of course holding our axis stable; Jupiter, the history of comets etc.

        But the main starting line would seem to be utterly ubiquitous.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 07:16:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  what if we're not the first (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theatre goon

        or the last, but just the farthest out in this galactic backwater?

        Think about Australia's native fauna and flora.

        Sorta kinda similar to the ones in South America and India, but kinda sorta way different too.............

        LBJ & Lady Bird, Sully Sullenberger, Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan, Ann Richards, Drew Brees: Texas is No Bush League! -7.50,-5.59

        by BlackSheep1 on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 02:29:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  My 2 Pennies (6+ / 0-)

    My feeling is that we all need to open our minds a little more.  Accept that we don't know everything about everything.  I am willing to read/listen to almost any thoughts and would love to know more about the thoughts of others.
    Count me in!

    Ring the bells that still can ring Forget your perfect offering There's a crack in everything That's how the light gets in.~~Leonard Cohen

    by Im with Rosey on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 05:21:55 PM PDT

  •  I will watch for more diaries... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Adept2u, Wendys Wink, Liberal Granny

    and thanks.
    I , for one, am very tired of public ridicule on such a serious subject.

  •  I'm a skeptic. (5+ / 0-)

    First, to see if any virtual rocks come my way...

    No...?

    Groovy.  :-)

    I once believed in the extraterrestrial hypothesis for UFOs, alien abductions, bigfoot, el chupacabra...  just about any other paranormal thing out there.

    Then I discovered Skeptical Inquirer.  James Randi, Martin Gardner, Phil Klass, Joe Nickell...

    I was ruined at that point.  I don't believe in anything any more.  That doesn't mean I don't like discussing the subjects, because I find the way people process things much more interesting than the various phenomena that I don't believe any more.

    All that said -- if you don't want a skeptic hanging about tossing out his thoughts, just say so.  I'll move on, no hurt feelings whatsoever.  If this is going to be a regular series, though, I'd be interested to hang about and discuss... stuff.

    •  Oh no no no (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theatre goon

      Please participate absolutely not.  The most important part of that statement was don't be mean.  These are kind of untreaded waters around here so as I'm starting up I want it to be nothing but a positive, so please stay.

      Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

      by Adept2u on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 05:42:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Fair enough. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wendys Wink, Adept2u, kyril, scilicet

        One of my own biggest problems with a couple of the professional skeptics I listed are that they have/had a serious problem with just being nasty at times.  

        That doesn't get anyone anywhere.

        I've always tried to disagree without being disagreeable.  I don't always succeed -- few people do -- but I do try.

        I'm much less interested in proving someone wrong as I am why they believe what they do.  And, even as a skeptic, I find the history and evolution of the UFO phenomenon fascinating -- which may have little or no bearing at all about what did or didn't really happen.

    •  There's a Difference Between Phenomena and Ex- (5+ / 0-)

      planations. Phenomena are experiences; we can't not believe in those.

      Explanations of course are a whole nuther matter, and we often get a lot of explanation that needs to be sorted out of reports of experiences.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 05:47:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  James Randi.... (6+ / 0-)

      a real American hero as far as I'm concerned.

      "Aubrey, may I trouble you for the salt?"

      by Borg Warner on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 05:49:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  UFO's are BS (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Adept2u

      But humanity has always been plagued by mysterous demons, visitors, etc. of some sort. Since it is impossible for matter to travel faster than the speed of light, the fantasy of visitors from Outer Space needs to stay in fantasy. Mars, on the other hand . . .

      •  How do you know it's not possible (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Crider, la urracca

        You do know that einsteins theories were really gedankenexperiment thought experiments, I'm nut sure they have a good enough grip on physics to state it's not possible.  I actually included a video in the comment titled beam me up that supplies a plausible explanation to that issue.

        Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

        by Adept2u on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 07:09:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How do I know? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Adept2u

          Because I took physics in high school. It takes an infinite amount of energy to accelerate matter to the speed of light. And we all know that infinity doesn't exist in nature, right?

          E=γmc2 where γ=1/(√ 1-v2/c2)

          You can find explanations for this magic math all over the internet.

          By the way, have you ever seen Brother Blue's website? He put it together in the late 90s, and then removed it in the early 2000s. SOme kind person has put up the archive. If you're a UFO buff, check it out.

          http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/...

          •  Cool (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BlackSheep1, la urracca

            You do recognize that first part where E=mc can't do the squared as Einsteins relativity, so I have one word for you

            Entanglement

            Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

            by Adept2u on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 07:37:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  ??? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Adept2u

              Huh? explain?

              Michael Weissman UID 197542

              by docmidwest on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 07:57:47 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Entanglement and Einstein (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BlackSheep1

                http://www.scientificamerican.com/...

                In the universe as we experience it, we can directly affect only objects we can touch; thus, the world seems local.
                Quantum mechanics, however, embraces action at a distance with a property called entanglement, in which two particles behave synchronously with no intermediary; it is nonlocal.
                This nonlocal effect is not merely counterintuitive: it presents a serious problem to Einstein's special theory of relativity, thus shaking the foundations of physics.

                Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

                by Adept2u on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 08:02:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  no (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Adept2u, theatre goon

                  Actual quantum entanglement is consistent with Special Relativity. The remote entangled events are always quantum random events, and hence cannot be used to transmit information even in principle. Entanglement involves no superluminal transmission of
                  1. information
                  2. mass/energy
                  3. any other conserved quantity.

                  So it's truly weird, but not a problem for SR.

                  Michael Weissman UID 197542

                  by docmidwest on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 08:08:59 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Really? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    BlackSheep1

                    How does

                    . Entanglement involves no superluminal transmission of
                    1. information
                    2. mass/energy

                    How does that speak to discoveries like this

                    Boffins from Japan and Australia have made a huge scientific breakthrough by successfully teleporting packets of light from one area to another. Skip related content

                    The mind-bending project, led by Noriyuki Lee at the University of Tokyo, could lead to the creation of super-powerful quantum computers and revolutionise the telecommunications industry.

                    The team managed to teleport wave packets of light by destroying them in one place and re-creating them in another.

                    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/...

                    Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

                    by Adept2u on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 08:13:48 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  "Teleportation" (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Adept2u, theatre goon

                      is a standard technique in modern quantum engineering. It involves no superluminal info transport. If it did, it would be a much bigger deal.

                      Entanglement does allow some pretty cool things, including un-snoopable shared random codes, but no faster than light transport of info. As for the newspaper words, there's not much point in trying to translate to newspaperese and then untangle the result.

                      Michael Weissman UID 197542

                      by docmidwest on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 08:20:07 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  So light is not conserved as it was destroyed? (0+ / 0-)

                        and it could carry information? in which case  couldn't the experiment be conducted so the information was travelling superluminally if it were done in steps ie one transmitter here the reciever a distance further than light could travel?

                        Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

                        by Adept2u on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 08:26:04 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  couldn't quite follow the proposal (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Adept2u

                          but the answer is still no, due to the basic form of the theory.

                          Michael Weissman UID 197542

                          by docmidwest on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 07:41:54 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I may not understand how the experiment works (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't know if there is some connection electromagnetically from transmitter and receiver I had imagined they were not connected and if so my thought was you place a transmitter here and the receiver on the moon, then you have the experimenters synchronize to turn their machines on at the exact same time, and should the device work would there be any lagtime between the packets destruction and reconstruction, and if that lagtime exceeded the speed of light would einstein be busted.

                            Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

                            by Adept2u on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 10:32:08 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Oh and since I have you (0+ / 0-)

                        All the question marks by the way are meant in respectful querie and not at all in know it all response.

                        http://www.guardian.co.uk/...

                        A century after Albert Einstein published his most famous ideas, physicists will today commemorate the occasion by trying to demolish one of them.

                        Astronomers will tell experts gathering at Warwick University to celebrate the anniversary of the great man's "miracle year" that the speed of light - Einstein's unchanging yardstick that underpins his special theory of relativity - might be slowing down.

                        Michael Murphy, of the Institute of Astronomy at Cambridge University, said: "We are claiming something extraordinary here. The findings suggest there is a more fundamental theory of the way that light and matter interact; and that special relativity, at its foundation, is actually wrong."

                        Einstein's insistence that the speed of light was always the same set up many of his big ideas and established the bedrock of modern physics.

                        Dr Murphy said: "It could turn out that special relativity is a very good approximation but it's missing a little bit. That little bit may be the doorknob to a whole new universe and a whole new set of fundamental laws." His team did not measure a change in the speed of light directly. Instead, they analysed flickering light from the far-distant celestial objects called quasars.

                        also this one bugs me

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                        Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

                        by Adept2u on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 08:42:47 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  interesting issues (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Adept2u

                          SR is certainly "wrong" in the sense that it's only a smooth-local-patch approximation to GR. And GR is generally assumed to be "wrong" in the sense that it's probably only a large-scale approximation to some theory of quantum gravity, perhaps in 9 or 10 spatial dimensions. In some versions of the efforts to develop quantum gravity, light itself does not quite travel at c. If you look at the structure of SR, however, it's not necessary for the transforms or speed limit that anything actually travel at c; that only helps simplify some of the explanatory stories.

                          Of course I haven't answered your question with the canned blather above, because I don't know about Murphy's work yet. I'll try to look it up.

                          p.s. This may be getting interesting enough to submit it to our Q&A site: http://van.physics.illinois.edu/...

                          Michael Weissman UID 197542

                          by docmidwest on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 07:34:52 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Pioneer anomaly (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Adept2u

                          The vast majority of little anomalies like that turn out to be of no major importance, There were a great many such anomalies after the discovery of Newtonian gravity. The explanations involved tidal friction, etc. etc. With one exception: the tiny precession of the perihelion of Mercury, which was due to General Relativity and the breakdown of the whole Euclidean-Newtonian properties of spacetime. Whoops. So my guess is that this effect is nothing major, but there's no guarantee.

                          Michael Weissman UID 197542

                          by docmidwest on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 07:40:40 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Ok I'm dropping all pretenses at shame (0+ / 0-)

                            Ok for the next entry in what goes on in Adept's head the last bit  that bugs me has to do with his idea that the universe is primarily gravitational in nature.  I can't get over the idea that we're missing something.

                            What are your ideas on plasma cosmology?

                            talking in Youtube videos is the wave of the future!

                            And what is up with this Gamma ray emmission that went on for 2 weeks, it was theorized to be the result of a black hole consuming a star, which had me going hey I thought energy didn't escape a black hole, and for 2 weeks?

                            Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

                            by Adept2u on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 10:03:40 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                •  re Sci. Am. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Adept2u, theatre goon

                  Usually they're pretty good, but that article had some major problems. Albert is a smart guy who can make some stupid mistakes. E.g. his famous riff on in "Time and Chance" on the failure of time-reversal symmetry in microphysics. Since that, it's been hard to persuade some of my colleagues to read him for the good parts and just disregard the crap.

                  Michael Weissman UID 197542

                  by docmidwest on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 08:15:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  hey, theatre goon, which Skeptical Inquirer (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theatre goon

      was it who wrote about the death-and-resurrection of a philosopher a few hundred years before the Nazarene?

      I read that ad for SI years ago ... and now can't find the reference.

      LBJ & Lady Bird, Sully Sullenberger, Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan, Ann Richards, Drew Brees: Texas is No Bush League! -7.50,-5.59

      by BlackSheep1 on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 02:31:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I hear they come from Uranus... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Adept2u, kyril, JayBat

    Photobucket
    "Quick, flick the bic!...poooOOOOOT~~Boom!~~~~"

    Bwahahaha...

    No, but seriously...do they?

    Oh, and can I have some of what you're smoking?

    Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

    by Radical def on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 05:42:53 PM PDT

    •  My guess is no (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Radical def, blindyone, JoanMar

      Uranus is a pretty hostile place a cold and forbidding place  with noxious gasses, and no you need a prescription.

      Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

      by Adept2u on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 05:52:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  sorry man, that was...rude (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nickrud, Adept2u

        I was sooo high...

        Not trying to dis your very cool diary.

        Will definitely follow the UFO one.

        Haven't dug into the FBI link yet, but that does look interesting...bookmarked into research tools file.

        Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

        by Radical def on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 09:31:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  nonsense we were having fun! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Radical def

          At least I was which this world needs infinitely more of, but I do appreciate your sensitivity.  I think the next one will be on the Rendleshem? Forrest followed by the Belgian wave.  I look forward to having you around.

          Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

          by Adept2u on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 06:45:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I must admit, that while somewhat, vaguely... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Adept2u

            interested in the UFO thing, I do have some reservations, actually, about making this a major topic of discussion on dkos.

            For one thing, like with 9/11 CT, this topic, and venues that discuss and pursue it, tend to be very substantially crawling with all kinds of right wing loons, and other...extremely subjective, sometimes quite irrational....elements, heh.

            I could dig something similar to the pootie diaries, lol, to goof on the topic...but getting too serious about it could tend to invite a substantial amount of diversionary discredit to dkos.

            This seems like the last thing we should really be arguing and fighting over, you know what I mean?

            Unless and until some really concrete evidence emerges, the presently available nebulous grainy, blurry photos and video, anecdotal accounts, and, like I say, so many crazies embracing the topic, are not very convincing for me, as open-minded as I like to think I am, and as fond of sci-fi as I tend to be.

            Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

            by Radical def on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 09:03:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I laughed out loud when the Roswell link (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Adept2u

    was broken and said no such story exists in the archives. Did you do that on purpose??  It's so fitting!

    For the record, I'm a bit if a hardcore believer in the UFO phenomenon, so don't take my comment as something douchey.

    My style is impetuous.
    My defense is impregnable.
    YOU'RE NOT ALEXANDER!

    by samfish on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 05:50:47 PM PDT

  •  I know where you can get your own Kenyan (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Adept2u

    Birth Certificate!  Does that help?

    Join us at the Amateur Radio Group. Serving the Left Side of the Dial since 2011.

    by briefer on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 05:57:11 PM PDT

  •  Ok the group is established! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theatre goon, blindyone, seeta08

    " And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. "

    What does everyone think of the slogan?

    This is my choice for group song, if they ever let us have such a thing.

    Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

    by Adept2u on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 06:04:14 PM PDT

  •  The ones in the video: (5+ / 0-)

    The first one in China looks like some kind of aircraft or technological device.   I'm not even going to speculate (yes I am:-).  

    The second one with the great big blooms behind it looks like it could be a meteor, partially vaporizing as it streaks through the Earth's atmosphere.  However I'm no expert on meteors, so any such expert advice is highly welcome.

    The one over Norway turned out to have a natural explanation of one kind or another that I can't recall at the moment.  But how do you like that, eh?, some kind of purely natural phenomenon that makes a cool pattern like that in the sky!

    Interesting that there was also one of those over Australia.  Now that these are more or less well known, we can expect to hear about more of them as people who see them will be more likely to know about the previous ones.  "Oh look, there's one of those spiral thingies!  Cool, let's take some pictures!"

    The Moscow thing could be a cloud layer effect with a patch of sun peeking through; it would have been very interesting to see what that looked like from directly under it, and measure the light spectrum on the ground.

    The object over Jerusalem was very strange even if only a tiny point of light: it moved way the heck too fast, far too suddenly, and with far too high an acceleration rate for anything I know of including model rockets or military rockets.

    The cluster of objects over New York turned out to be mylar balloons released from a party, as someone later stepped forward to say he'd released them.  However it proves one point very conclusively, which is that the reaction of masses of people to these things isn't panic but simple curiosity: even when they think they might be ET technology.  That should put to rest the idea that any disclosures about hypothetical ET devices would cause mass panic.  Times have changed since the Cold War.  

    Personally I can do without the dramatic music & quick-cut video production.  

    The guy who called Art Bell was having a panic attack and there's no way to evaluate what he said, but whoever did the transcript can't spell.  

    As far as Area 51 is concerned, it's well known that the Air Force tried to build flying disc aircraft on a number of occasions (whether they tested them at Area 51 or elsewhere), typically with ducted thrust systems.  These were never able to succeed as aircraft, though they played a substantial role in the development of "ground-effect machines" that later led to modern skirted hovercraft.  There are some interesting close-up videos showing the early attempts floating and wobbling over a test area at a height of a few feet off the ground.    

    And speaking of majorly cool aerial vehicles, the Soviets were also working on a related concept called the "wing-in-ground (WIG) effect," from which they developed the Ekranoplan.   Google image search that term and you'll see some seriously cool stuff.  There are plenty of photos and videos of those.  And there is even a Russian company today making a small version for a niche market similar to that for small aircraft.

    In the past decade or so there have also been plans for the US to build a very large WIG craft to use as a cargo transporter that could cross an ocean.  This has potentially very significant military and humanitarian implications: moving much larger quantities of personnel and equipment than conventional aircraft, at speeds approaching those of conventional aircraft.  Think of that in the context of disaster relief after earthquakes and tsunamis.

    •  Hey you seen the ones surrounding fukushima? (5+ / 0-)

      I might put it in a round up some way way respectable time in the future.

      You're right it's like a Youtube rule the people who do these must put on some creepy music.

      This is where it came from

      Kind of looks like the mylar balloons?

      Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

      by Adept2u on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 06:18:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  hadn't seen these (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cotterperson, Adept2u, G2geek

        Thanks!
        Great diary.

      •  Wow. Plenty of stuff to figure out there. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Adept2u

        The large object above the plant: it would be interesting to see how that finally exited the scene.  Probably it was in a segment of routine video that ended before it went away.  There are plenty of instances of objects seen above nuclear weapons installations during the Cold War, so it's possible that viable hypotheses about some of these will shed light on others.  In any case this one looks like a reasonable candidate for a technological artifact of some kind, if for no other reason than it is large and apparently solid and moves slowly enough to indicate that it is not being affected by wind and so on.  

        The tiny little tracers on the tsunami videos: I don't think they were glitches on the cameras, they moved too much relative to the frame of view.  I'm inclined to believe they behaved more like natural phenomena than like artifacts, but I don't know of anything that would cause the type of motion seen there.  

        The cluster of objects in the sky definitely wasn't behaving in the manner of birds or balloons, and spotlights & lasers can't create those effects against a blue sky.  

        Given that these things are as common as they are, and at least some of them constitute real scientific puzzles, it would be tremendously worthwhile to set up networks of cameras to watch the sky and start taking video the moment they detect anything that moves.  This could be done cheaply with off-the-shelf technology, and it would probably turn up quite a few more interesting objects than we might expect.  Multiple views of an object from different angles would also enable some degree of triangulation to determine its actual height and velocity, and possibly make inferences about its size.  

  •  Thanks for a great read. (5+ / 0-)

    Might I suggest you invite Kossack two roads to help with your group. His quality of his series, "Saturday night UFOria" was excellent.

  •  Actually, I've always thought... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Adept2u, zaka1, theatre goon, la urracca

    ...that extaterrestrial visitors seems the most plausible explanation for much of the remarkably similar religious mythology all over the world, among all cultures.

    Photobucket
    Photobucket

    Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

    by Radical def on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 08:02:08 PM PDT

    •  Carl Jung noticed that, too. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Radical def, zaka1, theatre goon, Adept2u

      He even wrote a book about it.

      "If we work in unity, we will achieve our goal." ~ Aung San Suu Kyi

      by jan4insight on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 08:56:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I liked The Golden Bough, by Frazier... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theatre goon, Adept2u

        Don't recall reading much Jung, but have heard of him, of course...oh yeah, more into mysticism than I tend to tolerate, as I recall?  Heavy on images, right?

        I guess I'm more into the...harder science.

        Although, it's interesting how the more advanced sciences are now seeming to confirm some "mystical" properties, like the chi force in the body, an actual detectable and manipulable electromagnatic force.  And quark physics sees particles acting like...magic, lol.

        Photobucket

        Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

        by Radical def on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 10:09:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Alternatively... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Radical def, Adept2u

      ...the same mental processes which lead one to believe in UFO phenomena are the same ones which lead one to believe in religious phenomena.

      In other words, depending on your mindset, a fireball in the sky might be interpreted as either a UFO or as an angelic visitation, when it happens to actually just be a meteorite.

      The number of things that hypnopompic and hypnogogic sleep have brought into various mythologies is pretty impressive, in and of itself.

      •  Yeah, well, like I say... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theatre goon

        Jung struck me as too...metaphysical, making up wierd words, and stuff...now i gotta look up -gogic and -pompic.

        I suppose there might be something to it, and people will, indeed, tend to apply their subjective frames of reference...but Jung just gets kinda...abstract.

        i like the more explicit accounts of how some gods were actually seen to fly up into the sky, and stuff...

        They might have called it a "chariot of fire", but still, somehow such accounts seem somewhat more...tangible, than mere imaginary psych-out.

        Ultimately, though, this issue of aliens is like religion...I'll actually be convinced only when I actually see real proof, heh...but meanwhile I'm more or less willing to entertain a pretty broad range of conceivable possibilities.

        After all, the ancient peoples all over Earth do say that some dudes showed up from "up there" (or in some cases, "down there"), turned us on to some wisdom, and maybe some technology, showed off some remarkable "powers", and then left, warning us that we better be nice to each other, or they would have to come back and destroy us all.

        They may embellish these stories with a lot of their own cultural quirks and memes, but the basic consistency seems...fairly remarkable

         

        Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

        by Radical def on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 06:12:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Do NOT get me started... (0+ / 0-)

          ...on "ancient astronauts!"  

          Really.

          It gets ugly.

          :-)

          Okay, not ancient astronauts all 'round, but Von Daniken is a crackpot, specifically.  Lifted most of his ideas from H.P. Lovecraft, in my opinion.  In fact, I've got a thing written up on that I should dig up and dust off, down the line sometime.

          Hypnopompic and hypnogogic sleep are those little twilight moments just as you're waking up or going to sleep, when you're actually somewhat awake and possibly still dreaming -- it's often hard to distinguish reality from dreaming at those moments.  I've had some doozies!  Very easy to understand how one can believe they've been abducted by aliens, or faeries, or had "the hag" sitting on their chest, stealing their breath.

          Maybe a good discussion point, in fact, for a future diary.

  •  Seriously? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Adept2u

    I hate to be one of those dimwit dorks who doesn't get a joke because somebody had the grace to leave off the "snark" comment, but I get the feeling you guys are not joking. Could you do an old scientist a favor and say if this is all meant to be taken straight?

    Michael Weissman UID 197542

    by docmidwest on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 08:30:03 PM PDT

    •  Sure! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jan4insight

      What about science precludes the possibility of extra terrestrial and or extra dimensional beings and that they might visit our planet?

      Every moment in life contains an off ramp. Never be afraid to use it.

      by Adept2u on Wed Apr 20, 2011 at 08:32:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  nothing precludes the possibility. (0+ / 0-)

        Nothing precludes the possibility that God put fossils in the ground to confuse us, either :)

      •  fair questions (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Adept2u, Radical def

        I don't think the "extra dimensional" part makes much sense in view of what we mean by "extra-dimensional", in which the interactions between different branes would just be gravitational. However, nothing about science precludes the possibility of life elsewhere. Given the many ways in which the multiverse is most likely infinite, it may be inevitable. However, estimating the typical distance to the nearest other life (and hence the chance that it could visit) is extremely uncertain, since we know almost nothing about the probability of life starting even on a nice earthy planet. What seems fishy is that a phenomenon like this would show up in the same way that all sort of other tabloid/religious stories do, instead of in some more accessible fashion.

        Michael Weissman UID 197542

        by docmidwest on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 07:49:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, after all these years... (0+ / 0-)

          ...and such prolific "sightings" and even "encounters", and all these fuzzy, grainy photos and videos (dismissing the many constant hoaxes, heh)...the many many people all over the world so avidly looking for proof...why not one shred of tangible evidence, that we can all confirm?

          Surely something, somewhere, would have escaped the Alien Information Police by now??

          That said, still a compelling, fascinating topic...I'm open to virtually any conceivable possibilities, even the "inconceivable" ones, lol.

          Sci fi has always been my favorite genre.

           

          Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

          by Radical def on Thu Apr 21, 2011 at 12:19:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I'm not skeptical about the possibility of ET (5+ / 0-)

    existence. But I'm extremely skeptical about any document coming from the CIA.

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