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This is a continuation of an email discussion I have been having with a Gaddafi supporter that considers himself an anti-imperialist and a socialist. My first dairy in this thread was Tuesday. I am publishing it here pretty much as-is because most of the work is already done and for what it's worth the thoughts here may have a wider utility than our private discussion. As before, names have been changed to protect the politically innocent. He is angry because I compared him to a birther
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 8:49 AM, XX wrote:
So now you are getting personal because you make allegations that cannot be proven?
No. This is not personal. This is political. I am saying that I have concluded that there is no proof that I can offer that you will accept.

I point out that the UN, the ICC, HRW as well as numerous eye witnesses and reporters say that cluster munitions have been used on the civilian population of Misrata. I even send you pictures. You don't deal with them piecemeal. You deny them en mass and tell me "you disseminate this information without proof at all."

You ask me for proof, so I send you a video. I said,

If you look at my YouTube video,

You will see what I'm talking about. That was in Feb. weeks before NATO got involved and you started paying attention. You really should watch it, although i know you won't, but you really should. It's only 2 min. long. It's a study in the contradiction between the way the MSM media was playing the story then and the facts on the ground.

So you really should watch it because no matter how much you believe such carnage isn't being caused by Gaddafi, the truth is he chose the path of massive violence and I have you down as supporting the slaughter portrayed in the video.

 

Have you looked at it? Since you make no comment beyond "you disseminate this information without proof at all", I think not.

Anyway, a little more about that video. I posted it on Feb. 28. Most of the gruesome footage is from before that but after #feb17. None of it was major media, some of it got disappeared from the web after I downloaded it. This was back when I was strongly rooting for the still mostly non-violent protesters to take up arms because I believe in shooting back when you are shot at. This was before the UN passed any resolutions or NATO got involved. It was also before IAC, PSL and pretty much anyone else on the American left had a clue about the struggle in Libya.

But I did. I had already enrolled myself full-time, and I mean 24/7, for six weeks in the service of the people's uprising in North Africa as anyone familiar with my writings in this period at the DailyKos and WL Central can figure out. My first piece supporting the protest movement in Libya was published Jan. 18, 2011. What was your position on those housing protests in Libya in January? Did you support or oppose them? If you had been reading my blog, you would have at least known they were going on.

I offered you as proof my entire body of writing on the people's uprisings in MENA and still I get "you disseminate this information without proof at all."

So I concluded:

You are like the birthers exactly. There is no proof that you will ever believe. You believe what you believe and you won't let the facts get in the way.
This is not a personal attack, this is an astute political assessment. Like the birthers you are deciding that your view of what is politically correct will determine your acceptance of what is fact. You have stumbled into idealism. You have decided that ideas will determine the facts rather than the other way round. For example, you say:
   You are saying that cluster bombs have been used in Libya and imply that Gaddafi is a monster, a boogie man like Saddam Hussein, Milosevic, etc..

No. I am saying that I have seen sufficient proof to conclude that Gaddafi is using cluster bombs. Those are the facts. You can decide for yourself what that implies. You seem to turn fact finding on it's head. Since you know Gaddafi is not " a monster, a boogie man like Saddam Hussein, Milosevic, etc.." there can be no proof of his use of cluster bombs.

Your whole narrative is riddled with that type of thinking. First you determine what political conclusions you think are served by a certain set of facts and then you apply that filter to the facts. Just like the birthers will never see a birth certificate they don't think a forgery, you my friend, will never be shown proof of Gaddafi's use of cluster munitions you won't think a lie and a fraud.

So my statement was not personal. It was political.

In Struggle,

Clay

Here are the links to my articles at WL Central:
 2011-02-24 Arming Gaddfi
 2011-02-14 Senior Egyptian army officers ordered massacre
 2011-02-13 Tales of Tyrants: Ben Ali, Mubarak & Suleiman
 2011-02-12 Algeria Protesters Defy Ban, Demand Change
 The Mubarak Screw Up & the Suleiman Danger
 2011-02-10 Mubarak is Defiant
 2011-02-10 Mubarak Expected to Step Down!
 2011-02-09 The Google Search for Wael Ghonim
 2011-02-08 The New Egyptian Normal: Thousands Demonstrate in Cairo, Alexandria
2011-02-06 Tunisia's Revolution Continues
2011-02-04 Tunisian Anonymous activists take on Egyptian cause
2011-02-04 Protesters roar back with "Day of Departure" for Mubarak
2011-02-03 Algerians plan Feb 12 protest against 19- year-long state of emergency
2011-02-01 Jordan's King Sacks Government as Protests Grow
2011-02-01 Tunisian Islamic Leader Returns as EU Freezes Ousted President's Assets
2011-02-01 Army Vows Not to Shoot as Protesters make Million Man Marches in Cairo, Alexandria Today [UPDATE: 2]
2011-01-30 Million Egyptian Protest Planned as Resistance Continues
2011-01-29 No Internet? No Problem! Anonymous Faxes Egypt
2011-01-28 In Jordan Thousands Demand New Government
2011-01-28 Mubarak Refuses to Step Down!
2011-01-28 Egypt is on Fire!
2011-01-27 Libya is in Revolt as Gaddafi Worries
2011-01-27 Algerians Plan Big Protest Rally for February 9th
2011-01-27 Tunisia Protests Continues as a Warrant is Issued for Ben Ali
2011-01-27 Tens of Thousands Rally in Yemen, Demand Change
2011-01-27 Mubarak Blinks as Egyptian Protests Continue for 3rd Day

North African Hacker Humor

Here is a recap of my other DKos dairies on the Internet, North Africa and Anonymous:
Who's running Egypt?
Amonpour Plays Softball with Gaddafi
Californians Support North African Revolts
Google Supports Revolts | Anonymous does too!
Secret U.S. Intelligence Source on Middle East Revealed !
Arming Gaddfi
Are "mutinous officers" are being executed in Egypt now?
Algeria's 19 year long State of Emergency to end soon, President says
Senior Egyptian Army Officers Ordered Massacre!
Tales of Tyrants: Ben Ali, Mubarak & Suleiman
UPDATE: Egypt's Mubarak Has Resigned! - The Mubarak Screw Up & the Suleiman Danger
BREAKING: Mubarak is Defiant
The Google Search for Wael Ghonim
Tunisia's Revolution Continues
Google Goes Rebel, Supports Egyptian Protest
Tunisian Anonymous activists take on Egyptian cause
Protesters roar back with "Day of Departure" for Mubarak
Act Now to Stop Mubarak's Thugs From Killing More! w Petition
Act Now to Stop Mubarak's Thugs From Killing More!
They Should Have Helped That Street Vendor
Million Egyptian Protest Planned as Resistance Continues
Huffington Post Disses the Jasmine Revolution Redux
No Internet? No Problem! Anonymous Faxes Egypt
Egypt is on Fire!
North African Revolution Continues
Egypt Protests Continue, Tunisia Wants Ben Ali Back
BREAKING: Protesters Plan Massive "Day of Wrath" in Egypt Today
Tunisians Thank Anonymous as North Africa Explodes
Huffington Post Disses the Jasmine Revolution
Tunisia: A Single Tweet Can Start A Prairie Fire!
Anonymous plans Op Swift Assist in Tunisia
Arrested Pirate Party Member Becomes Tunisian Minister
Is Libya Next? Anonymous Debates New Operation
Tunis: This Photo was Taken 66 Minutes Ago
The WikiLeaks Revolution: Anonymous Strikes Tunisia
EMERGENCY: DKos Must Act Now to Protect Tunisian Bloggers!

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kevinpdx, stolen water, fizziks

    Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

    by Clay Claiborne on Fri May 06, 2011 at 11:42:24 AM PDT

    •  While I do not necessarily seek to defend.. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Marie

      ...Gadaffi, I do think the situ in Libya seems at least somewhat different than in, say, Tunisia and Egypt, in that he has a long history of being harshly reviled and vilified by the US and allies for resisting international monopoly corporate fascist imperialism...unlike the neighboring regimes.

      So...while I recognize that his regime had likely degenerated into it's own 'brand" of elitist corruption (although we've tended to really get virtually NO real information, whatsoever, as to what conditions and policies have really prevailed there, over the years) I had to be suspicious of a "spontaneous" uprising there, as likely being, at least in part, a more or less CIA sponsored scenario opportunistically contrived in the wake of more...genuine such events in the region, just to fuck over Gadaffi, and shift power to more...cooperative elements among the old deposed royalty and comprador capitalist millieus.

      Which should not be taken as dismissal or denigration of the genuine popular democratic elements who I do believe are also major engines of the present uprising...Indeed, I think it puts them at greater risk from internal weaseling and international intervention, especially over the oil

      Just saying, there's good reason to be extremely wary of US propaganda, especially on this particular topic...

      Because we all know how much they can be relied on to give us an accurate picture of what's really happening, anywhere, about anything...NOT.

      Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary principle. Information is the ultimate key.

      by Radical def on Fri May 06, 2011 at 12:31:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why would you waste your time (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fizziks

    debating a Gaddafi supporter--no penpals from North Korea's government available?

    "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

    by Geekesque on Fri May 06, 2011 at 12:16:54 PM PDT

  •  heh, it seems like George Galloway (0+ / 0-)

    might be the guy on the other end of your e-mail exchanges.

    He never met a terrible dictator he didn't like, as long as said person demonstrates sufficient hatred of America and Jews.

  •  if your debate opponent is an "anti-imperialist" (0+ / 0-)

    how does he feel about Gadhaffi completely supressing the Berber culture in Libya?

  •  If you had to choose between (0+ / 0-)

    a third GWB term or a Sarah Palin presidency, which one would you go for?  Why is it so inconceivable to you that Ghadafi for many Libyans beats the current alternative?

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