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Another day, another pie fight.  Actually, last I checked in on the highly-rec’d diary that has spent most of the day on the wreck-list, it wasn’t much of a pie fight.  It was mostly atheists, agnostics and sympathizers vocalizing, with some justification, just how much they’ve been discriminated against – that they are the victims of bigotry. It is true, as claimed in the diary that “American’s don’t like atheists”.  Then again, American’s have a long history of not liking somebody-or-another – but more on that later.

In the meantime, there were plenty of comments to make the converse argument – that atheists have considerable bias against their believing counterparts.  To much applause, religion was compared to a penis). An excellent comment about the disdain shown toward religion by numerous dkos atheists was retorted with the comment "Cry Baby"

Attention: 1% of the U.S. controls 40% of the wealth.  If you are not part of that 1%, YOU are a victim of BIGOTRY and DISCRIMINATION.  It doesn’t matter if you believe in Jesus, Moses, Bieber, FSM, or the ghost of Carl Sagan.  It doesn’t matter if you are a college professor or a bricklayer or a McDonald’s worker.

The vast majority of bigotry – though not excusable – is grounded in the innate human fear that somebody else has more than their fair share of power.  That’s why they tell us that gays are getting “special rights”, that Whites are subjected to “reverse discrimination”, that union-members and teachers are “greedy”, that intellectuals have a "socialist-secular agenda".  And of course, hippies vs. soldiers . Whether such confrontations really happened or are urban legend, rest assured, the Kochs of the world will be there to pour gasoline on the fire, and make sure that the enmity persists.

Of course, they don't need to tell us that the uneducated, or southern Whites, or Midwesterners are bigoted rednecks. We're too busy saying that to ourselves and each other.

So yeah, your run-in-the-mill storefront Baptist preacher stands a better chance of getting elected to the local school board than does the typical member of the Ethical Society, or the Unitarian Church for that matter.  It just ain’t fair, is it?!  

The day I visit this site and see a volume diaries devoted to organizing against and discussing the real enemy -- in proportion to the amount of wealth held by the elites -- That's the day I’ll believe the progressive movement stands a chance in hell of being born again (puns intended).  On that we day can proclaim:

Those who speaks evil of our brothers and sisters day and night have been cast out.

(Paraphrase, Revelations 12:10)

The devil is the one who sows the seeds of division.  On that point, I’m a biblical literalist.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Secular Nations tend to be fairer Nations (12+ / 0-)

    -- THAT is point made by many atheists ...

    i can't say for sure which is the chicken and which is the egg in this relationship

    but the simple fact is that the more secular a nation is the number of positive indicators of societal health tends to be higher than that of nations of relatively equal status that are more "religious"

    so -- it IS exactly the debate that You are interested in ...

    "I want to keep them alive long enough that I can win them to Christ," - Rick Warren, Professional Greed Driven Scumbag

    by josephk on Wed May 11, 2011 at 09:20:48 PM PDT

    •  You have seen studies on this correlation? (4+ / 0-)

      Where should I look?

      I used to be Snow White. And then I drifted. - Mae West

      by CherryTheTart on Wed May 11, 2011 at 09:26:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I could... (3+ / 0-)

      conjure some bullshit argument that those secular nations generally have a much longer religous history than the US, and that one could plausibly attribute their values to this history.

      Or I could argue that as the US has become more secular, the wealth gap has only grown wider....

      But no, its NOT the debate that I'm interested in.  

      "Mr. Overton, your window is broken" (John Cole, 5/11/11)

      by RickinStLouis on Wed May 11, 2011 at 09:27:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Correlation is not proof of causation (6+ / 0-)

      Europe is more secular and has a stronger social net than the USA.  So using the same data and reasoning we could conclude that geography was the key element to more equitable wealth distribution.

      I suggest that if the conversation is to be on wealth distribution the route there is to discuss wealth distribution, not secularism.

      Stop. Stand up. Make a sign. Walk around in public. Be polite and orderly and the rest takes care of itself. Want to shake up the Plutocrats? Demonstrate your attention to politics.

      by Quicklund on Wed May 11, 2011 at 10:46:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  True enough (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kevskos, Quicklund

        i was sloppy using the "chicken and egg" metaphor -- but, it does appear to be correlative -- isn't it worth further study and investigation though?

        i heard Greg Paul (the author of the diary on the rec list) interviewed - and he wasn't making a strong argument either way except to suggest that there exists an inter-relationship

        "I want to keep them alive long enough that I can win them to Christ," - Rick Warren, Professional Greed Driven Scumbag

        by josephk on Wed May 11, 2011 at 11:08:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you probably are onto something (0+ / 0-)

          And a discussion on just how strong that correlation is would be interesting.  But it would not be a direct substitute for the one the diarist calls for.

          Buy hey it's all good with me.  I sense you to be a reasonable poster who perhaps wrote a little hastily.  Not many people have the class to reflect.

          Anyway, it was very late last night when I was posting so I was not at my best either.  And now I am going to drag my sleep-deprived butt over to

           watch a news conference called by the guy who ran the effort to recall Senator Wirch here in Wisconsin. (One of the Fab 14.  He is going to address the charges of fraud.)

          Stop. Stand up. Make a sign. Walk around in public. Be polite and orderly and the rest takes care of itself. Want to shake up the Plutocrats? Demonstrate your attention to politics.

          by Quicklund on Thu May 12, 2011 at 06:48:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Secular doesn't mean "no religion". It means that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AaronInSanDiego

      it doesn't involve religion one way or another. It means "not religious". There's a difference and it's important.
      Bill O'Reilly has made a mint by conflating secular with atheistic, to the detriment of religious freedom.
      Our nation was conceived as a secular nation. Our laws are not based on a religious code and are not enforced or interpreted by clergy.
      Secular society has benefitted Christianity greatly. Christians have a  great deal to lose by the establishment of a "Christian State".
      Christian State-ists are a great threat to freedom in this country and must be opposed with all the civil and legal force available to us.
      Atheists forget that "Atheism" has been a state religion, with the same disastrous results as other state religions.
      That's actually one of the reasons for the strength of the religious right now, the Cold War made bedfellows of everyone who opposed Marxism.
      Atheists tend to be extremely insulting toward believers on blog posts and comment threads. This is actually counter-productive. If we stay unified in protecting our secular system, and our education system that teaches science and history without the bs, the truth shall set everyone free.
      As for myself, the only thing I believe in is uncertainty.
      I lean toward the Buddhist (Zen) persuasion, but I was raised by the old-fashioned good kind of non-judgmental sincere Christians who follow the example and teachings of Christ, and don't belong to the fascist political cult of evangelical Christianity. It's important to make a distinction there.

  •  Amen. (10+ / 0-)

    For a long time I've been really tired of this crap.  It has nothing to do with electing Democrats.

    The relentless bashing of theists is counterproductive politically. This is supposed to be a site about electing Democrats.

    However, there is no denying that DKos has become a giant chat room where many people gather to talk about nonpolitical things.

    On balance, I'm open to almost everything, except that I oppose attacks on religious faith.

    It is a calling...to do things about injustice.... It helps to have a goal. I've always tried to have one.--Ted Kennedy, True Compass

    by Timaeus on Wed May 11, 2011 at 09:27:06 PM PDT

    •  I think Atheists need to get a metaphorical room. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Timaeus, commonmass, Quicklund, tnproud2b

      Isn't there an Atheists Group where they can go wage war on Presbyterians and Fundamentalists in peace?

      Even I submitted my last diary about God to SOUL Kos for editing before publishing.

      Come on Atheists. Get into dk4 and sneer at each other. We will save France.

      I used to be Snow White. And then I drifted. - Mae West

      by CherryTheTart on Wed May 11, 2011 at 09:41:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Did You make this same comment on B&S (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vacantlook, Kevskos

      Brothers and Sisters was a regular Rec List diary -- EVERY sunday -- it would be recc'd right up on to the rec list

      THAT had NOTHING to do with "electing more and better democrats" and did nothing BUT spout religious propoganda

      did You ever ONCE criticize THAT diary?

      if not -- then You are being incredibly hypocritical ... and it isn't that You don't approve of these types of conversations or diaries -- just one's that don't mesh with YOUR world view.

      "I want to keep them alive long enough that I can win them to Christ," - Rick Warren, Professional Greed Driven Scumbag

      by josephk on Wed May 11, 2011 at 09:59:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ummmm no (3+ / 0-)

        Criticism of one diary while failing to criticize another is evidence only of what diaries one reads, not what diaries one has a propensity criticize (hypocritically or otherwise).  Unless accused critic reads  all diaries, or a statistically random sample of all diaries. Otherwise, its evidence only of selection bias (since you're a  social science fan).

        "Mr. Overton, your window is broken" (John Cole, 5/11/11)

        by RickinStLouis on Wed May 11, 2011 at 10:11:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  well -- thanx for answering (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bigjacbigjacbigjac, Kevskos

          -- but i didn't direct my reply to You ... i have no idea how Brothers and Sisters impacted You or whether or not it was a regular on the Rec list since You joined

          HOWEVER -- i know that it was a regular during a period of time when i joined DK

          so, thanx for answering -- but i wasn't actually criticizing YOU or accusing You of anything -- I honestly think that You are sincere -- and I think Your point is valid with one strong caveat -- Religion is used as political CLUB to beat people with -- remember 2008?  Rev. Wright?  I welcome a political environment that is devoid of religious rhetoric, but unfortunately that ain't the country we live in, now is it?

          "I want to keep them alive long enough that I can win them to Christ," - Rick Warren, Professional Greed Driven Scumbag

          by josephk on Wed May 11, 2011 at 10:22:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  The Brothers & Sisters diary (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timaeus, AaronInSanDiego

        is not an attack on atheists.  Actually they go out of their way to be welcoming.

        I shall die, but that is all that I shall do for Death; I am not on his payroll. - Edna St. Vincent Millay

        by Tara the Antisocial Social Worker on Thu May 12, 2011 at 06:28:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Have you actually READ a B&S diary? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timaeus

        They aren't about "spouting religious propaganda," they're about community and mutual support, and talking calmly and respectfully about the religious or irreligious values that give us hope, call us to love our fellow people, and motivate us to action.

        Calling people talking about how their own faith (or lack thereof) has enriched their life "religious propaganda," is akin to the right-wingers who say "I don't care if you're gay in your bedroom, just don't impose it on me by holding hands with your boyfriend in public."

      •  Actually I never read the Brothers & (0+ / 0-)

        Sisters diaries.

        It is a calling...to do things about injustice.... It helps to have a goal. I've always tried to have one.--Ted Kennedy, True Compass

        by Timaeus on Thu May 12, 2011 at 07:09:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Great to hear you say that. n/t (0+ / 0-)

      Craft is what emerges when you hit inspiration over the head with a stick.

      by commonmass on Wed May 11, 2011 at 10:10:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Except that atheism is WHY I side with Dems (0+ / 0-)

      First and foremost, the fact that the Republicans are in bed with the fundamentalists is exactly WHY I will not ever vote for them, period.  I will not vote for people who think theocracy is a good thing.  That would be suicidal of me to do so, as I would be one of the first up against the wall, so to speak, for my outright blasphemy.

      For me, the idea that I would continue to side with the Dems if they adopted the same attitudes as the Republicans in regards to religion is false.  I would drop my support for them if they started being just as hostile to the godless heathens like me as the Republicans currently are.

      Electing Democrats is not my first priority.  Electing people who do things I like and don't do things I dislike is what matters.  Currently the Democrats are closer to that ideal for me than the Republicans are.  If that changes, so will my choice of whom to support.

      Remember, the parties DO change their platforms over time.    Don't just pick a party and then automatically support everything it ever does.  Thats just blind tribal thinking.  Do it the other way around.  Pick a position and then look at which party supports it.  Once upon a time the Democrats were the religious conservatives.

  •  Bravo. (6+ / 0-)

    Thank you for taking the time to articulate this. I could only throw up my hands and ask "Again???"

    More and Better Democrats. As long as they're atheists. Yeah. That'll work.

    •  Oh I see (0+ / 0-)

      Us atheists only elect Democrats if they're atheist too. All of us sat at the 2008 and 2010 elections. The only atheists who voted were in Pete Stark's district, and the only voted on that ticket. They didn't vote for Boxer, or for Jerry Brown, or in any other races.

      This - about the 50th or so strawman argument about atheists. And you wonder why some of us write the diaries and "whine" like we do?

      liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

      by RockyMtnLib on Thu May 12, 2011 at 08:11:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I am a Quaker. (10+ / 0-)

    My kids went to First Day School as children. Both are atheists at the moment, although my Jesse is going to start attending Meeting. And she has been known to do some exploration of Buddhism. She was talking with a teacher for awhile. I will be reading Tarot Cards at the Essene Fair on Saturday. And so it goes.

    I do not understand this sudden conflict. We are here to elect mo and bettah Democrats and have fun with our friends. The is no religious litmus test for membership. Some of us are religious and some of us are not. WTF?

    I used to be Snow White. And then I drifted. - Mae West

    by CherryTheTart on Wed May 11, 2011 at 09:36:23 PM PDT

  •  Preach it, brother. (9+ / 0-)

    If you can't deal with your ideological fellow travellers here on Daily Kos who have the opposite opinion you do regarding the existence of the Big Guy, how do you expect to be able to function in a modern pluralistic society?

    All men of goodwill should be able to get along.

    I support torturous regimes! Also, I kick puppies.

    by eataTREE on Wed May 11, 2011 at 09:55:26 PM PDT

  •  Despite your post title, I had a "Oh, here we go (8+ / 0-)

    again" moment before I actually read your post. Tipped and rec'ed for a nice piece of work that nails it down...

    On the religious/secular front, EVERYBODY thinks he or she is being discriminated against.  Too many people who claim to be Christian have apparently not found the time to closely read the first four books of the New Testament or the 13th chapter of Romans and the 2nd chapter of 1 Peter and, as a result, don't have an understanding that "The Great Commission" was to deliver The Message to people rather than to take over governments in order to force The Message on the people...

    Too many other people who don't want to get in on the Jesus bandwagon have apparently misunderstood that 'gays, guns, and God' (along with the never-ending fight over a woman's right to control her own body) have been little more than intentional distractions offered by the men behind the curtain to draw attention away from the things that they really wanted to accomplish.  Not that the fierce debates over abortion and gay rights aren't important at a personal and societal level aren't important;  they are vitally important to hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of people who look at the U.S. Constitution and ask "where does it say THAT!?"...

    The men behind the curtain have other goals in mind and want to target those things that will maximize their own profits while we all fight over the usual social issues and which group's views of spirituality is most discriminated against.  While we fight over stem cell research and abortion, they are winning SCOTUS cases like Kelo V. City of New London and Citizens United V FEC,  and by doing so chiseling away at the foundation of what we thought we understood as the United States of America at points that should matter to all of us, regardless of our spiritual beliefs...

    "In a nation ruled by swine, all pigs are upward mobile..." - Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

    by Jack K on Wed May 11, 2011 at 10:09:18 PM PDT

  •  I see lots of refrences to "secular nations". (8+ / 0-)

    The USA is a secular nation. Not every Christian is a biblical literalist.

    One of the things that went down the memory hole today was the fact that one of the largest Mainstream Protestant denominations is voting to ordain gay clergy. Funny that the atheists win the day.

    Craft is what emerges when you hit inspiration over the head with a stick.

    by commonmass on Wed May 11, 2011 at 10:09:21 PM PDT

  •  "i'm an agnostic. (6+ / 0-)

    i'd be an atheist if it wasn't for mozart." - something a retired professor said to me at the opera after hearing dove sono.
    i think there is some wisdom to be found in all religion & a great deal of nonsense as well.

    Whatever action a great man performs, common men follow. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues. The Gita 3.21

    by rasbobbo on Wed May 11, 2011 at 10:25:27 PM PDT

  •   I think it would be a good thing (4+ / 0-)

    if people would be respectful of other people's belief system no matter what it is - believer in some higher power, agnostic, athiest or worshiper of sea urchins.

    Athiests think they are persecuted. Christians think they are persecuted. Sometimes they are. Sometimes people are really rude and disrespectful.  I have empathy for the person on the receiving end when I see that happening.

    The problem seems to be that nobody cares until its them that are feeling the lack of respect. If we cared more when other people were being treated poorly the whole damn world would be a better place.

    I have no patience with Christians who complain about being persecuted then persecute others for being non-believers or for being gay or for being something "other"

    I have the same amount of patience for anyone else who complains about being persecuted for being different  who then proceeds to mock and demean another group.  It sucks.

    •  Well said. n/t (0+ / 0-)

      I shall die, but that is all that I shall do for Death; I am not on his payroll. - Edna St. Vincent Millay

      by Tara the Antisocial Social Worker on Thu May 12, 2011 at 06:31:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Automatic respect of all beliefs is NOT good (0+ / 0-)

      Want proof?  Okay - do you think I should respect a Klu Klux Klansman's belief that white people are inherently superior to black people?  Do you think I should respect the Westboro Baptist Chruch members' belief that we all must start hating gay people in order to save the country from God's wrath?

      You are giving examples about respecting peoples RIGHT TO believe but claiming that you're talking about respecting their beliefs themselves.  Those are two different things.

      Your own post is very disrespectful to the beliefs of certain types of bigot.  Should you respect their beliefs more?  No.

      Don't confuse the issue by not noticing the difference.  Not noticing the difference is what leads to such bullshit as anti-blasphemy laws.

  •  boy o boy (0+ / 0-)

    religous vs atheists
    BOTH are verry personal set of beliefs.
    as any idiology you have to choose it for yourself when you
    grow up maybe it will even change over time.
    it just gets nasty if one starts to convince others.
    you heart your brain your belief.

    •  I'm not getting nasty, (0+ / 0-)

      and I'm trying to convince others.

      Read my long comment,
      above.

    •  atheism is not a belief. (0+ / 0-)

      It's a rejection of a belief commonly held by others.

      Now that isn't to say atheists don't HAVE beliefs, because of course, they do - but don't make the mistake of labeling atheism AS their "personal set of beliefs".

      It's usually far more accurate for an atheist to say, "because of other things I do believe in, I chose to reject this thing you believe in".

      What those "other things" are, of course, will vary from one atheist to the next.

  •  Live and let live. eom (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gerald 1969
    •  Nope. I don't agree. (0+ / 0-)

      I don't make it my most time consuming chore,
      but I want to convince everyone
      to believe
      exactly as I do.

      It's like Galileo.

      400 years ago,
      nearly everyone
      thought he was wrong.

      Live and let live?

      Galileo was simply correct.

      I like accepting the truth,
      and trying to teach it,
      not live and let live.

      Maybe 400 years from now,
      everyone will agree with me!

      •  not only time and space is relative (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bigjacbigjacbigjac

        so is the conventional truth.
        all we seem to know (not belive) is truth, right
        then a new einstein comes along and destroys the conventional truth with a new one.the more we find out about our univers the more questions come into the game.
        we are so far away from understanding the world,
        how can you say you teach the truth,
        all you can do is teaching what is known today and fight  superstition with that teaching.
        but to even think we have a ultimate never ever changeing truth that could be told or teached is not verry scientific in my view.
        and too ignore or fight others idiologys on the ground of" I know the truth "
        is not much diffrent form the vatican.
        never mind just my two pfenning

        •  I understand that we always find more (0+ / 0-)

          information,
          more truth,
          but it seems to me
          that basic principles
          are simply affirmed.

          Galileo,
          and Copernicus before him,
          used exact circular orbits,
          and therefore they did not match observations
          exactly,
          (because the planets' orbits
          are elliptical)
          but they were still correct.

          Any new info about how the human brain works,
          will just affirm
          that it's a mindless machine.

          The pattern is set:

          Humans imagine a supernatural cause for something,
          and science finds a natural explanation.

          That pattern
          will never change.

          No ghost in the machine,
          no inner person in me or you.

  •  I believe that the truth is the truth, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gerald 1969, SoCalHobbit, Oh Mary Oh

    and I believe it's not so hard
    to learn the truth,
    with regards to religion
    or philosophy,
    in general terms.

    I figured it out in 1999.

    Here it is:

    We humans are animals,
    similar to pigs,
    elephants,
    and,
    of course,
    chimpanzees,
    bonobos,
    gorillas,
    and orangutans.

    I include elephants
    because elephants,
    at birth,
    have the whole family group,
    (I think the adult males roam away from the group,
    so it would be the newborn elephant's
    mother,
    grandmother,
    and siblings)
    the whole family group
    touches and smells,
    with their trunks,
    the new baby.

    And elephants live several decades,
    so that when one dies,
    the others express great grief.

    Imagine you are a female elephant
    in your teens or twenties,
    and your grandmother dies.

    You feel profound grief,
    because she's always been there.

    It hurts.

    You miss her.

    I miss my wife.

    We spent 30 years together.

    My point is that we are animals;
    our intens feelings,
    such as grief,
    do not make us special.

    We are animals.

    We have nothing special that other animals don't have.

    Nothing.

    No such thing as
    heart,
    mind,
    soul,
    spirit.

    There is no inner person.

    An elephant,
    and a human,
    we are both
    organic machines.

    There is no ghost in the machine.

    There are no persons.

    We should change grammar books to say
    a noun names
    a place or thing.

    We are things.

    But we can learn things.

    We can learn complicated things.

    We can learn that helping others,
    if we are okay,
    or even if we are ready to be injured,
    or even to die,
    to help others,
    we can learn
    that helping others feels great.

    That was an important part,
    the main point,
    of the movie,
    Patch Adams.

    It's also the point
    of the movie
    Groundhog day.

    Helping others kicks ass!

    Some don't learn that very well,
    for various reasons.

    And folks end up with all kinds of wacky ideas
    of what truly helps others.

    But no one is evil.

    Those who say abortion is murder,
    and I used to be such a person,
    when I was a devout Catholic,
    those folks are not evil.

    No one is evil.

    There is no such thing as bad behavior.

    If anyone makes any decisions
    based on the idea
    that those bad people
    did that bad behavior,
    they will make terrible decisions.

    I don't have the answer
    on what to do
    when an armed group
    is coming to kill you.

    But we need to understand,
    in every situation,
    the truth:

    Your enemy is not a person,
    he is a mindless machine,
    with no free will.

    Maybe you can teach your enemy
    to help you.

    I believe in learning,
    not free will.

    Teach,
    don't scold.

    Teaching might work;
    angry words,
    hitting,
    killing,
    those things seldom work.

    So,
    let's review:

    No inner person.

    No free will.

    No bad behavior.

    Anyone who belives otherwise
    might harm me and others.

    Your beliefs might harm me and others,
    and you beliefs might harm you.

    Therefore,
    I reject the idea
    that I should let you believe
    whatever you want.

    I should gently,
    but firmly,
    try to teach you
    the truth.

    The strange thing is,
    even amongst non-believers,
    very few agree wtih me.

    Stepping back,
    you might suggest I could be wrong.

    But I have been re-hashing,
    analyzing,
    looking at it from all angles,
    for 12 years.

    The more I think abou it,
    the more I observe animal and human animal
    behavior,
    the more I am certain.

    Ecclesiastes,
    chapter 3,
    verses 18
    through 20:

    I said in mine heart
    concerning the estate
    of the sons of men,
    that God might manifest them,
    and that they might see
    that they themselves are beasts.

    That was just verse 18,
    but it's not an odd,
    out of place quote,
    maybe some mis-translation;
    no.

    The next two verses
    extrapolate:

    For that which befalleth
    the sons of men
    befalleth beasts;
    even one thing befalleth them:
    as the one dieth,
    so dieth the other;
    yea,
    they have all one breath;
    so that a man hath no preeminence
    above a beast:
    for all is vanity.

    All go unto one place;
    all are of the dust,
    and all turn to dust again.

    (King James Version)

    (I believe that most of the books in the Bible
    were written by non-believers,
    philosophers,
    using reference to a deity
    as a literary device).

    So,
    I simply want everyone,
    absolutely everyone,
    to believe
    exactly as I do,
    exactly as I have just explained.

    I want every Kog here at Daily Kos
    to accept the idea
    that your enemy in a pie fight
    is not a person
    with free will.

    Your enemy in a pie fight
    is a mindless machine,
    but one who can learn.

    Maybe you can teach your enemy.

    But angry words,
    calling names,
    accusations of wrongdoing,
    that may not be ideal teaching methods.

    What do you think?

    I am trying to teach,
    here,
    with this comment.

    Am I calling those who disagree with me
    stupid,
    or bad?

    No.

    I insist
    that those who disagree are either
    uninformed
    or misinformed.

    But not stupid,
    not bad.

    To translate this to the purpose of this site,
    we could elect better politicians
    if we get along better,
    teaching,
    not angry words,
    expressing hatred.

    And,
    out in the world of public office,
    I want all politicians
    to believe as I do.

    Other beliefs
    can cause harmful public policy decisions.

    Thanks for reading.

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