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There is a lot of this stuff going around these days. Mean, uncharitable stuff. People suggesting that any liberal Christian is in league with Fundamentalists, for instance. Because--as far as I can tell--the very act of being Christian enables haters. What tremendous bullcocky.

Today is Independence Day. You know what is also independent? The Episcopal Church.

I won't bore you with church history here, but suffice it to say that Anglicans in what is now the United States managed to sever their ties with Britain and preserve their faith. A Scottish Bishop was involved and well, I said I wouldn't bore you....

A little more over the squiggly-doodad.....

I have yet to see any progressive Christian of any stripe here on the Daily Kos troll around in the diaries of atheists to antagonize. Have I accused some of hyperbole and misplaced rancour? Of course. Have I, or others who belong the the Anglican Kossacks group trolled around looking for this? NO.

I have a great deal of understanding about why some people are angry with religion in general, and Christianity in specific. It's not like we have a stellar record when it comes to human rights and other things most progressives hold dear.

However, in this day and age, some of us--Roman Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox, Lutheran and others--are standing up for human rights, including LGBTQ rights, standing up for the end of war, for a human, fair solution to issues in Palestine/Gaza, for a lot of things. We're working hard on social issues. We're committed to them. Jesus demands it.

We may not be "you", but we stand with you. We stand for peace, justice, love, equality, representative democracy, you name it. We--at least here on Anglican Kossacks--ARE you. We are us.

I sometimes think that some of our liberal/progressive allies don't want us on the team. "Monkey in the clouds", "Flying Spaghetti Monster", those kinds of terms are regretful and all too common. How do you think the Jews and the Muslims react to that kind of language? After all, we're real Socialists, we monotheists: we all share a God. We live, so to speak, in a Communal Apartment.

As a gay man, I learned long ago that I have got to be intentional about my rage against those I see as oppressing me. Rage and insults are easy. Forgiveness and understanding, on the other hand, are difficult. I like the difficult path on that. I may not be perfect, but I really know how to forgive. You don't have to believe in God to be a forgiving person. You don't have to believe in God to be a jerk, either. We're all one, let's not forget that.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

Collect for the Sunday Closest to July 6 from the BCP

O God, you have taught us to keep all your commandments by loving you and our neighbor: Grant us the grace of your Holy Spirit, that we may be devoted to you wth our whole heart, and united to one another with pure affection; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.

Originally posted to Anglican Kossacks on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 10:37 AM PDT.

Also republished by Street Prophets .

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Comment Preferences

  •  Hi commonmass...any thoughts on the Anglicans who (11+ / 0-)

    have entered into communion with the Catholic Church?  While it was due to some conservative views on gays, it might have some very interesting unintended repercussions for the Church re: clerical celibacy...

    "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have little." FDR

    by dizzydean on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 10:44:53 AM PDT

  •  that's it? (17+ / 0-)

    You recognize partially why we're mad, and then tell us you're us, and then say "don't be jerks"?

    I get why you're mad at us, some of us are jerks. But how about turning that back at the same people we're mad at. They're the ones who steeplejacked your churches, perverted your religion (and to anyone who replies to this saying "Christianity has always been this way", shut it, I don't want to hash that out), and has fucked the United States for the last half-century. We did none of that. We're a reaction to them.

    They turned creationism into political BS. Not us.

    They're the ones insisting we're a Christian nation. Not us. And absolutely positively not true, but you know that.

    They're the ones who created megachurches and prosperity gospel (even though one can make a historical argument that both aren't recent) to the detriment of the old-fashioned mainline churches, not us.

    Yes, I'm asking, be a bit more strident against your co-religionists as they're poisoning Christianity, not us, we can't, we're not even Christian.

    "I don't want to live on this planet anymore" -Prof. Farnsworth

    by terrypinder on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 10:58:56 AM PDT

    •  First of all, my brother, I want to thank you for (14+ / 0-)

      commenting here. I mean that.

      You know which Gospel I read: the actual ones in the book. Unfortunately, I can't change other people's minds about that.

      All I can do is to work to keep my branch of Christianity--the third largest in the world--doing what is right, what is just. That's hard enough.

      The rest of these jackasses? They don't even think I am CHRISTIAN. Aye, there's the rub.

      I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

      by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:03:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm mad at the Christianists too. (13+ / 0-)

      It really hacks me how they have hijacked my religion.  And like commonmass said, they don't think I'm Christian.  

      But I totally get where commonmass is coming from - it's extremely unhelpful when fellow Kossacks hate on us Christian Kossacks for the sins of the Christianists.

    •  Stop lumping all Christians into one basket. (10+ / 0-)

      Some Christians believe in creationism; not all.

      Some Chrisitians insist the US is a Christian nation; not all.

      Some Christians founded/attend mega churches; not all.

      There are even differences within the same denomination.  Wisconson Synod Lutherans are not= Missouri Synod Lutherans are not= ELCA Lutherans.

      And as for it being the responsibility of one group of Christians to convince another group of Christians that you are right and they are wrong - hasn't happened in the past 2K years; what makes you think things are any different today?  

      Republicans: if they only had a heart.

      by leu2500 on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:46:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  As soon as you can make them stop piling all (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        commonmass

        atheists into the same woodpile to burn at a later date.

        Fuck.

         the irony in this diary hurts my head.

        YOU'RE RIGHT

        NOTHING WILL CHANGE

        WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE IN ARMAGEDDON ANYWAY

        FUCK IT

        lET'S START NOW!!!!!!!!!!!

        "And as for it being the responsibility of one group of Christians to convince another group of Christians that you are right and they are wrong - hasn't happened in the past 2K years; what makes you think things are any different today?"

        OK, since the moderate christians are off the hook, looks like it's up to us atheists.

        Thats' your preference?

        I hope you're armed.

        I'm not, because if I was I'd only fire one bullet to make sure I got out before the rest really gets started.

        I guess we might as well give up on abolishing slavery, since that lasted much longer than 2000 years

        and the BIBLE STILL HAS NO PROBLEM WITH IT

        Oh, nevermind.

        George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

        by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 01:29:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Feel better? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mapamp, bythesea, commonmass

          I'm not going to argue with a rant.

          If you think, however, that was a constructive outburst, well, then I'll argue with you.

          Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

          by The Red Pen on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 03:09:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No I don't feel better. And you're OK (0+ / 0-)

            with that.

            There's a funny thing about theist/atheist rants, both sides know niether side can declare a winner in these contests, and yet both sides still resent it when another lets loose with as much visceral truth about how they feel on the subject.

            The point I dont' have to make, because all of you who simply dismiss me because you don't like the intensity....

            ...I am the thing that is so objectionable, and yet no one wants to own me or explain how I got here.

            It's always "they" or "them" who did it, the person in the conversation is always the "good" person who just wants their faith  and would not harm anyone.

            (I've never met an extremist, because every time I try to point out how they seem extreme to me, they simply say that they're not as extreme as others and set the bar lower)

            in doing so, they help prop up the umbrella all the extremists are also using to shelter themselves from criticism.

            Whether I'm forgiven or ever understood for seeing all people of faith that way or not, probably not. That it has the same effect on me and everyone is content to simply say it's all me -

            you put a lot of confidence that the guy who's got it all wrong will somehow come around.

            So much for freedom of thought; you can think it, but to say it out loud...now its' a problem.

            Funny, eh? If I just stayed off line tonight, I'd still have the same thoughts I do now, nobody would know about them and go about their business unawares.

            I guess this seems like a better deal to everyone?

            Look around - when you get done blaming me, I'm pretty sure I'm not so unusual that I'm one of a kind.

            I never made any pretense about who was right or who was wrong on the issue of whether or not there is a "G"od - surely in five thousand years someone else woudl have done it far before I tried; and knowing people far more talented and knowledgable have failed, I'm not going there.

            However, if the issue is how do guys like me become the person I am -

            all those "extremists" who the moderates want to disavow are who you need to talk to. .

            And when I talk to them, they use the same arguments to justify their extremism as the moderates use to say that their position is beyond reproach (or deserves at least as much protection as any other).

            I dont' want to argue, I want to be.

            When I look ugly and perterbed, if you care to know why, then I'll tell you.

            if you take every opportunity to say you don't care

            then you sound, sadly, just like the extremists you say you're nothing like.

            And so it goes.  

            George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

            by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 05:45:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  The church I grew up in (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          snafubar, commonmass, mapamp

          - or at least some of the congregants - would be glad to stick me in that woodpile with you.

          According to them, I'm an atheist if I think evolution happened, even if I believe a deity caused it. Even if I believe Genesis is metaphor for it.

          I can't convince them anymore than you can - the second I tell them everything I believe differently than them, they'll consider me to be like you!

          Prayers and best wishes to those in Japan.

          by Cassandra Waites on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 05:41:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I"m not such a fool to think I can convince anyone (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mapamp

            of a damn thing -

            but if they want to ask me where I got all these cuts, bruises, and hackles,

            ask me and I'll tell them

            If they say

            "i don't care because I'm not the one who did it"

            Well then so be it.

            The crux of all these arguments is that the people of faith who are absolutely apoplectic that anyone would DARE change their point of view (because that they would is absurd even to consdider) - in their very next breath see no irony in confronting everyone who differs from them and asks (if not demands) them to change theirs

            Well, gee. I wonder where the hostility comes from.

            I no longer wonder about the irony; yet I'm still waiting for my first "moderate" Christian to see it.

            George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

            by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 05:49:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think the people I get most angry with (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              commonmass, snafubar, mapamp

              are the ones who use religion to damage other people. Mentally, physically, spiritually, and whatever other ways there are in this world to hurt a person.

              The aggressive proselytizers. The people who treat other people kindly... until they hear something that doesn't match their own beliefs and suddenly that other person is lower than dirt. The preachers who take advantage of people. The ex-gay therapists. The people outside abortion clinics who don't care why anyone is there when they start yelling.

              I knew people in college who didn't want me near them from the second they knew I was a Christian, and I got mad at the people who'd given them fair reason to fear - not them. Took three years of smiling and being friendly from a distance whenever we happened to be in the same place at the same time for one of them to start considering me an okay and reasonably safe person - and I knew people in the church I grew up in who would have wanted me to immediately betray that trust and go hard-sell witnessing on him.

              Whenever we do a Spiritual Gifts thing at church, I always test as having Mercy. I've got a Sunday School teacher right now who 'can't see it' - and doesn't seem to get it when I explain that whatever empathetic thing is showing up in that result is a protectiveness towards those other people are hurting - which means that thanks to the way I grew up, it's the people outside the church who get the sympathy and the people inside the church who get the 'leave him alone, you've hurt him enough, why the HELL would anyone want to join this church if THAT'S their introduction to how we act' reaction that doesn't look like what it really is.

              Prayers and best wishes to those in Japan.

              by Cassandra Waites on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 07:45:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I wish everyone in this thread could read (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mapamp, Cassandra Waites, JDsg, commonmass

                what you wrote.

                What you said there -

                that would go a long way to heal a person like me

                that there are more who pile on and few who understood what I wrote the way you did

                ...I think this may have some bearing on our problem....

                Thank you for your words, for your insight, for your ability to be a human first and a Christian second.

                that it could ever be so elsewhere

                George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

                by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:29:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  I think that if you read that comment (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        commonmass, Loquatrix

        again, you'll see I did no such lumping. Unless this is a general comment, and not one done toward me.

        "I don't want to live on this planet anymore" -Prof. Farnsworth

        by terrypinder on Wed Jul 06, 2011 at 09:21:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I may be an agnostic, but I certainly enjoyed (12+ / 0-)

    reading your post. You are consistently very thoughtful and respectful. I can't imagine people feeling judged by you.  Well done!

  •  Well said. (10+ / 0-)

    Regarding this:

    I have a great deal of understanding about why some people are angry with religion in general, and Christianity in specific.

    I am indeed unhappy (I could easily say "angry," but anger is an emotion that has never worked for me) with religion; but I'm more distressed about what I see as the larger problem: an apparent unwillingness to honestly try to understand others' beliefs or philosophies, as if understand were synonymous with endorse.

    Too many people on all parts of the belief/unbelief spectrum cling ferociously to their own points of view — too often born of some degree or other of ignorance — preconceived and pre-judged. Yes, pre-judged. As in prejudice. Unfortunately, it's not exclusive to wingnuts.

    There are, in every age, new errors to be rectified, and new prejudices to be opposed. ~Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

    by slksfca on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:08:44 AM PDT

    •  Right on the money. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mapamp

      my angst is embodied by what you describe there:

      That one person's "belief" is so sacred to them that they see anyone else who doesn't yield complete fealty towards it as not "respecting" their belief - all the while they have no clue that it is precisely the beliefs they cling to that are so unforgivingly exclusionary towards so many others.

      I generally only swing directly back at people who swing directly at me

      whats odd in this diary is that I gave a blanket opinion on how one man's experience has shaped him

      ...and it's once again come back to how I was supposed to have some other reaction and therefore no one is to blame.

      Which is also doubly strange from my perspective; the people who think I'm the one who is supposed to always be objective and to respond accordingly ("appropriately", whatever that means) are precisely the same people who say I am an unhinged and out of control crazy person.

      Seems like a dumb idea to put all the hopes for avoiding collisions on the one guy who nobody is even sure has any brakes or would be willing to use them if he did.

      But that's just me.

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:44:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't think this helps. (19+ / 0-)

    We have a saying in Pagan circles, "Police your own." In other words, call out Pagans behaving badly if you're a Pagan...or call out Christians behaving badly if you're a Christian. Or even atheists, if you're an atheist.

    Most of the time, what I see in the real world and the on-line world isn't calling out and policing your own. It's distancing from the "bad guy," whoever he is.

    "But those guys aren't real Christians!" mm hm...they sure aren't Muslim or Jewish...

    I understand that sometimes we end up fighting and resenting each other over the wrong thing...or hell, even the right thing sometimes. I don't endorse blaming every Christian for Fred Phelps, or every atheist for the occasional atheist troll.

    Would atheists prefer that everyone not believe in God(s)? Of course. Can anyone have a bad day and turn their ire on the wrong target? Absotively.

    But I agree with a lot of what atheists on here say. The Bible does contain cruelties and genocides attributed to God, and that is evil. Christians do cruel and evil things and are rarely called out on it by their fellows as Christians.

    Maybe we could all try to do a little more policing of our own...any Pagans causing trouble here? Let me at 'em!

    "This is about the human heart, and if that sounds corny, so be it." -- Keith Olbermann

    by allergywoman on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:09:34 AM PDT

    •  I get you on this, however (9+ / 0-)

      "Christians" are not a monolith. We're fractured. We're worst than the Democratic Party that way. I call them out all the time. But it doesn't do any good.

      I'm glad to know that pagans are more organized. LOL.

      You know what I would REALLY like to see? Some of these militant atheists going into a Jewish-themed diary here on the Daily Kos and saying to my Jewish sisters and brothers what they say to the Christians. Won't happen. I don't think I have to explain why.

      I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

      by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:16:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Relative social power matters (19+ / 0-)
        You know what I would REALLY like to see? Some of these militant atheists going into a Jewish-themed diary here on the Daily Kos and saying to my Jewish sisters and brothers what they say to the Christians. Won't happen. I don't think I have to explain why.

        Consider that in American society (and in the West generally), Christianity has held a privileged position relative to other faiths. That's why invective directed at Christians, however unpleasant and sometimes excessive, doesn't really compare to that which you could direct at, say, Jews. There's no equivalent history of oppression and marginalization with respect to Christianity in the United States.  The social and historical context is different.

        It's for the same reason that, as a white man, it's not pleasant or good for me to hear a racial insult, but that's still not equivalent to me directing racial insults at people of color.  There's an asymmetry of social power there.

        Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

        by Linnaeus on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:29:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  1000 recs on your comment. (9+ / 0-)

          That's really what atheists like myself are reacting to - not people like commonmass who seem to understand that their religion is meant to control their own lives and not those of other people - but to the pervasiveness & dominance of Christianity in our culture AND our secular laws, as well as the automatic assumption that everyone is Christian and shares similar religious beliefs.

          In America, many if not most Christians and their coreligionists need to be reminded that their imaginary friend is just that - their imaginary friend, not mine and not our government's.

          •  methinks someone will take offense at "imaginary" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            skrekk

            ...which always inspires me to ask

            "who is there to stand with me against those who cast aspersions on my character and question my motives simply because they are sure that without reverence for their beliefs I must be compelled to follow and powerless to resist evil."

            It's a great conversation stopper shrekk - you say "imaginary friend" and the faithful get pissed that you've mocked what's sacred to them...

            ...and yet they can't see why an atheist might feel hostile when people say there's something wrong with me that I cant' find it.

            As if I should lie to please them?

            For if I speak truth - I can't see anything - they don't like that either.

            I think it's because they really don't see or feel anything themselves, and they're quietly afraid to admit so...

            ...probably because they see how their fellow Christians would come down on them like a ton of bricks if they were to be true to their own soul and not "G"od.

            George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

            by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 09:03:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I think this is still overly reliant on the (7+ / 0-)

          myth of the unified xian community.  Xians famously don't consider other xians w/ theological differences to be actual xians, so xian species 1 calling out xian species 2 doesn't have any more currency than if I - an atheist - did it.

          Xianity is positively overloaded w/ true scotsman, if you will.

          •  Yes, there are intra-Christian divisions (5+ / 0-)

            Definitely; I'm not saying that there's a unified community of Christians.  But the fact that there are divisions within the faith doesn't change the fact, IMHO, that Christians generally do not receive social sanctions for being Christians in the way that Jews and Muslims have, and sometimes still do.

            Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

            by Linnaeus on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:03:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Bingo. Part of my outrage is when the (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            allergywoman, skrekk

            Evangelical (and yes, we have to mention the Pentecostals) who talk shit about Catholics as if they were as blind and condemned to Hell as the atheists.

            Imagine me, growing up in NY/PA and seeing nothing but Catholics in my family and for as far as the eye could see; who then moves to Indiana and has all the Evangelicals screaming at me that all my relatives are ALSO going to Hell with me unless we all repent and se it there way.

            At it's core, I have no tolerance nor any apology to make for those peopel who say "Everything will be fine as long as you agree I'm right and you'll adopt my views" -

            those are the rules of the extremists.

            That the moderates do not understand, appreciate, or join in combating the overt threat this poses to me is why I put no weight on their indignation (like in this diary)

            Spend just six months walking in my shoes if they would dare, and their milqetoast attitude towards the Hagees and Muthees in their midst would turn to honest fear in a hurry.

            Sheltered under a plausibly inclusive cousin-faith ("Well, you're not my kind of "G"od, but at least you believe there is a "G"od so we can together fight those who deny "H"im)

            ...the moderates don't really have any real reason to see the damage that is being done under the auspices of that faith they wish to protect without exception.

            George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

            by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 09:11:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Tell that to the Irish Catholics. EOM. (3+ / 0-)

          Republicans: if they only had a heart.

          by leu2500 on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:48:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Because US Jews are largely atheistic? (4+ / 0-)

        I'll be happy to go into any Jewy diary on dKos that's about God and mock them soundly. (I try not to do this with Christians, because I'm not a Christian, I'm a Jew. I believe that we asshole atheists should keep the mockery close to home.)

        Seriously. Drop me a private message next time you see a Jewishly-theistic diary, and I'll break down the door, traif blazing.

        "Gussie, a glutton for punishment, stared at himself in the mirror."

        by GussieFN on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:33:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, it has... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        commonmass, bythesea, allergywoman

        There was a diary a while back about the first female African-American Rabbi to be ordained.  There was a particularly nasty troll thread in there that I had the misfortune to get myself embroiled in.

        "If you don't stick to your values when tested, they're not values! They're hobbies" - Jon Stewart

        by LivingOxymoron on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:41:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  you know why you never see that? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mapamp, allergywoman
        "...You know what I would REALLY like to see? Some of these militant atheists going into a Jewish-themed diary here on the Daily Kos and saying to my Jewish sisters and brothers what they say to the Christians. Won't happen. I don't think I have to explain why."

        speaking for only myself here

        you've never seen a militant atheist like myself go after a Jew because no Jew has ever come to my house, come to my school, stood in the town/school square and condemned me to Hell for not being a Jew.

        No Buddist

        No Hindu

        No Zoroastrians

        No Jaine

        has ever threatened me with eternal damnation for doing what they fail to see is PRECISELY no different than what they demand for themselves -

        No Jew attempts to inject his religion into the governmental policy or to impugn the motives or question the character of anyone of a faith different than their own.

        Do you really need me to give a list of Christians who do that, or provide examples of what a dick they can be when doing it?

        George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

        by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 09:19:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  No thanks. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        The Red Pen, commonmass

        I've had enough Witch-hunts done by atheists against Pagans. There are a few who seem to have complete, unreasoning hatred of us on the Internet, and they're enough.

        "This is about the human heart, and if that sounds corny, so be it." -- Keith Olbermann

        by allergywoman on Tue Jul 05, 2011 at 11:13:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I have a saying too (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      commonmass, mapamp, bythesea, allergywoman

      "GOD will get you for that"

      But She never does.

      Funny, that.

    •  No, atheists do not all prefer that everyone (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      commonmass, mapamp, allergywoman

      not believe in any gods - that is the height of hypocrisy.

      What we do insist on, however,

      is that although it is claimed our rights are "G"od given

      it seems that "G"od left the enforcement and defense of those rights up to those troubled, sinful, mortals

      and in that capacity, we have to hold our secular civic code above any theologically derived beliefs, so that ALL beliefs (or lack thereof) can have any hope of being treated equally.

      This is the key to our society's future.

      I will forever carry the most perverted phrase that was ever used against me in both directions- both ways by very faithful christians:

      "Anyone who did not have faith would likely be a suicide victim"

      The guy who said that to me was not banned for being a "jerk" or a hater

      I - the guy talking about suicide in the midst of all the people who saw no irony in their blindside condemnation of my beliefs by simply demanding I not find objection when others club me over the head with theirs -

      I was banned for my desperate outrage at the indignation

      so much so that suicide seemed like the right path

      since so many people felt so compelled to tell me how much they didn't like me

      The irony was lost on the whole bunch

      I lashed out at Sam Wise Gingy for what I saw were some really stupid and provocative efforts (his words) to eliminate religion - shit -

      like we're going to eliminate air and water

      what I want is peace. Nobody crashes religion over my head like a plate; nobody locks me in a corner because I can't find theirs, nobody casts aspersions on me or my views because they dont' match theirs.

      Atheists dont want to destroy religion

      we want to destroy the abandoning of logic, reason, and respect for the civil code that has become a badge of honor for some of the more fervent believers; that the moderates won't join in the defense because they're SURE guys like me won't stop at the nutcases and will be after them eventually -

      ...that is their tragic failure to listen to me because they're already so sure they know what I'm saying that they don't even have to hear the words.

      Maybe there would be less need for policing if the citizens realized that the Golden Rule need not belong to any one camp and instead - indeed - should be the one and only creed we actually can all live with without any "faith" required.

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:57:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Great. No faith required. Of course not. (0+ / 0-)

        SWG was a troll. One of those people that looked for a place to be disruptive. A real class-A asshole.

        Reason: the three-legged stool of Anglicanism: "Scripture, Tradition and REASON". What the "reason" part means is just what you think it does. It means not taking things too literally, based on, well, REASON.

        I know that is really inconvenient.

        I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

        by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 09:02:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Reason is what _I_ think it means? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          allergywoman

          I can't beleive you have missed the "fourth" leg in your argument, the same one that the RKBA soldiers don't have

          I go over there and say I do not challenge their right to keep or bear their arms, but I do have some problems with who reserves the right to FIRE those arms, on THEIR terms, for THEIR reasons as judge, jury, and in some cases executioner - no appeals possible.

          That's a lot of power.

          Now in the case of religion, it seems to prove MY case that unless Psalm 23:4 is a joke inserted into the Bible by a "troll" -

          "oh though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil; for thy rod and thy staff they comfort me".

          Amongst the whole of Christians, there seem to be an unusually (and easily) perterbed group of individuals to have such confidence when dealing with the Valley of Death if all it takes to stir them up is a guy who said three things:

          -No thanks, I don't like you're brand of tea

          -I"ve been asked to drink it already, I don't like it

          -if it's all the same to you, I have my own ways to soothe myself and I'll use them as needed - perhaps given the incentive at this moment because you're in my face

          That's what I've never understood about Christianity in particular; to address your comment about why I'm not out confronting Jews or Hindus or Buddhists or Jaines or Zoro Astrians -

          they dont' run in my circles, they dont' knock on my door, and from what I've read of their religion, they would not be so unsettled that I turn them away if they did.

          Christians have demonstrated that to me, so forgive me for relating my experience.

          I'm sure I could but heads with a Muslim, but that's a matter of demographics right now. I'm surrounded by Catholics who vote Republcan as reflexively as they draw breath, and I've been surrounded by Evangelical Protestants who likewise do also, who ironically think the Catholics are all going to "H"ell as sure as the atheists.

          No other religion but the Christian faiths seek to enmesh themselves in the workings of the civil government and overtly affect my life, I have no need to get up on that soapbox. For some of the Christians, I can't seem to build a soap box high enough to meet them eye-to-eye.
          Keith Ellison has never said anything that tripped my radar; Shall I name the "good" Christians who have, or can we just agree that the list is too long for a diary comment?

          So I'm here to point out to the Left Chrisitans how the Right ones were able to build a guy like me, and for some reason they always take my life story and its results personally as if I'm attacking them outright.

          No, unless they act like the others, I'm not

          But if they do, I dont' care if they belong to the Democratic party, the Republican party or they are trying to inspire a comeback for the Whig party.

          I'm all about the irony -

          What happened here was that I wrote a passage about why I am the way I am,

          and a bunch of people made no apology for confronting me and saying "wow, and you deserve it, too"

          well, so much for turning the other cheek.

          That they pile on or pursue someone wounded and hostile -
          ...that I let speak for itself, if you don't mind.

          "the pursuit of happiness"

          ...shall not be so fervently pursued that it comes at the expense of someone elses. Some on the Right are engaged in just such a zero-sum game, and if I point out that some on the left have used the same tactics and think it's all forgiven in the end -

          perhaps you'll allow me and see a point if I tell them, "no, it's not"

          The "serenity prayer" goes like this:

          "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

          the courage to change the things I can

          and the wisdom to know the difference"

          The statisticians and the actuarial tables will tell you that "serenity" wins out over courage by a massive margin; that's why the people with courage are so rare that we make movies to celebrate them since there aren't a lot of them walking amongst us.

          That "wisdom" -

          well, that's something that does not come from "G"od in the moment to make the call, but "wisdom" is most always found ex post facto by the crowd who had no stake in the game at the moment of choice, but who can all then see how obvioius the choice it was after it has all played out.

          If you mustered courage to fight and lost, you surely should have chosen serenity instead.

          If you snuck away in silence to seek your solace in the midst of a situation that clearly was worth fighting for to save something large enough everyone can agree was worth the cost, well, that coward should have had more courage.

          Wisdom is the problem - pay close attention, and you'll never find it in religion. You will, however, find it written in our history by those who never had to put their neck on the line to make the call.  

          And if you want to spend a few days on reason v. religion,

          I can anticipate you showing me all the reasonable examples that went the "right" way and being strangely quiet on all the discretions that led to somethign worse.

          JCH Fleetguy used to take on George Carlin's line "more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason" - Fleetguy said he'd own up to 1 in 7. I have no idea how he arrived at that, he would not elaborate.

          Having Michael Collins as my second cousin and knowing that the "troubles" in Northern Ireland have lasted longer than I can follow my heritage backwards (and still exists today) - well that's real-world violence inspired by religion.

          The "War on Terror" is an ideological war, that's religion.

          That there is bloodshed between Hindus and Muslims - two nuclear powers next door to each other - for anyoen to ignore that is religiously driven does so to all our peril.

          So I called him on it, the Christians rushed to say he was a nice guy, and it got ugly.

          But you've done about the same - I can't talk about religion at large because YOUR church is a nice one.

          is'nt that grand.

          See - you've come back to yourself now more than once. You want me to know that YOUR religion, anglicanism, is the GOOD religion.

          Meanwhile - my position in this diary had nothing to do with any particular sect, denomination, or congregation (save for Street Prophets, a congregation of sorts). I started by relating personal experience, and I've been mocked for it

          and nobody who mocked me can understand where my attitude comes from? I think the whole thread stands as proof that even if I were turned into a wonderful person tomorrow by therapy, pills, or maybe because I'll find "G"od -

          there are others lke me still out there.

          so you dismiss them as "trolls"

          and you just cant' see why this shit never ends?

          Not a mystery to me. Not a complex question to answer at all.

          I take on those religious forces that stand up and demand I hear them while insisting I have to stay seated and quiet.

          I do not go barging into the churches or homes of those who have not challenged me and say they're all full of shit and fools. The lady next door to me is my 94 year old cousin and in the 43 years I've known her, we've never had a cross word between us. If I actually were the provocateur that some in this thread assail me to be - that's tough to explain.

          So if you are not the religious zealot out to turn my life upside down, I won't be at your door. If that's not you, then we won't cross paths on these threads.

          You and others here want to prove you're not my enemy; (the tactics by some are pretty surreal if that's their goal) - since you keep telling me about YOUR religion and what it means to YOU - then please allow me the liberty of standing up to whom I see fit and for what reasons I find on those times I find them.

          ANd every one of you who seem to think that snafubar has invited all this derision, scorn, and contempt -

          you don't get to claim the high road unless you're actually still driving on it

          to say

          "i know that's really inconvenient" -

          is pretty snide.

          that's kind of a second-grade level form of "I know you are but what am I", and it means youve surrendered your high road because you are sure that once the other guy has done something you are sure is beneath you that it's OK to meet him at the same level - after all, the other guy started it.

          Except if you'll notice, once you met him there you're not standing on that higher ground any more.

          Either way - I find this entire thread rather telling. That you care not, (or surely will say "no thanks, we don't want your type or your help) that I am also in support of marriage equality - albeit for much different reasons - is unfortunate.

          Because the arguments I use to take on the "gay marriage cannot be like 'real'marriage or it lesssens my 'real'marriage" arguments is that very same reason you seem to think I don't understand or appreciate.

          "Seperate but equal is not equal, in manners of public accomodation"

          The supreme court as already ruled on this in 1954 - and sadly no one is using that precedent to drive this home.
          ______

          SWG, was a troll, so that as an atheist therefore I get no credit for calling him out on it with the same intensity I brought here? Or did you notice?

          Gee, thanks.

          I guess I really should just shut up and stay home since nobody cares.

          You see, there are also two paths to take confronting a troll, or an antagonist of any kind - head on, or bypass and ignore.

          I have found a lot of people in this thread that want to meet me head on, push as hard as they are sure is warranted, and then blame me for pushing back on the same grounds that they pushed in the first place.

          They could have let it go as easily as I could.

          Either way, commonmass, you somehow think that I'm out to get you or condemn your diary. My point is that there are always individual points of view and that some people in the circles you run with or run near or let run around you have done some real damage. That you wind up taking shots from the people they've hurt and want to disavow it all because you personally did not throw the punch -

          that's great

          but take the blogger snafubar out of the picture

          and tell me how much other success you're going to have on that path. Once you've dismissed with me, surely you're not so foolish as to think it's all settled.

          There are some people here who are engaged in the same relativism that does nothing more than say "I'm fine, you're the problem, issue over."

          Look around you.

          How's that working so far?

          The definition of freedom is not that people are only free to do what's right and noble and sublime and good for all people involved - push some people hard enough and they'll show  you that they'll burn it to the ground just for spite.

          Now before you call an admin for my home address to send the cops maybe you can now see the point I'm making

          There are more than one person in this diary who have proven that they are willing to engage with a person that they openly have already professed is not put together too well, is unstable, and is obviously agitated.

          I think my point has proven itself

          maybe it takes a hothead to throw the first punch

          but if everyone else is better than him

          who are they to keep coming back and keep fueling the fire?

          what's their "reason"? either meaning will do, please.

          I know that is really inconvenient.

          George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

          by snafubar on Tue Jul 05, 2011 at 08:16:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  ::shrugs:: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        commonmass

        I didn't mean it in a Mr. Burns, hand-rubbing, evil villain voice "Religion will be assimilated" way. I meant it in the way a lot of us do when we say things like "You know, wouldn't it be great if all of the American people just told Rupert Murdoch where to stick it?" In an ideal world-kinda way.

        My parents raised me right, so I always believed in separation of church and state. Back when I was a Christian, it always amazed me that so many of my co-religionists needed the government to validate their faith. It literally seemed beyond most evangelicals I knew to believe in God unless the government endorsed their beliefs.

        "This is about the human heart, and if that sounds corny, so be it." -- Keith Olbermann

        by allergywoman on Tue Jul 05, 2011 at 11:19:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  How very true. (13+ / 0-)
    How do you think the Jews and the Muslims react to that kind of language? After all, we're real Socialists, we monotheists: we all share a God. We live, so to speak, in a Communal Apartment.

    As a Muslim, I couldn't agree with that statement more.  Or, for that matter, the rest of your diary.  Very well said.

    Phrases such as those you mention tossed around here are highly insulting to fellow progressives of all faiths, and I agree that at times it seems the atheists don't want people of faith on "their" side.  I will say, though, that not all atheists here are like that.  Some, in fact, have come to my aid several times in religiously based diaries.  Such people give me hope.

    Thanks for the great diary, tip'd and rec'd.

    Terror has no religion.

    by downsouth on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:27:51 AM PDT

    •  Peace to you and to the Prophet. (7+ / 0-)

      Your comment brought great hope to me. Not all atheists here are aggressive. Just a handful, really. Some of them are even my friends.

      I have read the Bible, and I have read the Koran. There is real love in there. I like to try to live it. It stinks that some people  try to pervert it.

      I know Jews, Christians and Muslims on this site that are committed to social justice--partly from what the Bible or Koran tells us. The Prophet, his name be praised, was also concerned with social justice. And peace. In the name of the God which Muslims, Jews and Christians love dearly.

      I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

      by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:34:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you (5+ / 0-)

        Wa alaikum salaam, and upon you be peace.  Thank you so much for this comment.  The blessed Prophet, may peace be upon him, was indeed concerned with social justice.  It is a subject I am currently covering in a diary series, actually.  It is my dream that, despite our differences, all progressives can come together to realize the social justice we all believe in.

        As human beings, we will always have differences, but I believe we can overcome these differences and win the larger battle...that of saving entitlement programs, finding equality for all citizens, and electing more and better Democrats.

        Terror has no religion.

        by downsouth on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 02:21:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  That's funny--as a Jew I had the opposite (6+ / 0-)

      reaction to that! I thought, 'don't drag the Jews into this!'

      (But I bet we agree that eating pig is simply gross. Whatever the problems between Jews and Muslims, at least we're not disgusting.)

      "Gussie, a glutton for punishment, stared at himself in the mirror."

      by GussieFN on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:35:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hey--I'm a quarter Jew. (7+ / 0-)

        I'm proud of it now. I have probably spent more time in schul than lots of my very favorite Jews on Daily Kos.

        I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

        by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:39:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  And here I agree complely with you (6+ / 0-)

        which of course proves my Jewishness LOL

        And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

        by Mortifyd on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:39:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I now embrace my Jewishness (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          GussieFN, downsouth, Cassandra Waites

          after 40 years of denying it. I am not technically a Jew (which, by the way, some people love to remind me of) but I feel it deeply. This might sound strange, but it re-inforces my Christianity. Plus, it explains my nose. LOL.

          I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

          by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:47:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  um... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            commonmass

            how can you embrace your Jewishness if you aren't Jewish?

            And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

            by Mortifyd on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:48:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I am not Jewish because my mother is not (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              thebluecrayon

              Jewish. She's Catholic. However, my grandmother's family, on my dad's side, were Jews and converted to Orthodox Christianity generations ago. My dad, technically, is Jewish though his mother was raised Christian. That's how I have Jewish blood running through my veins.

              I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

              by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:50:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •   but.... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                commonmass

                well... that kind of doesn't matter.  :(   Your Christian from a family of Christians of Jewish decent.   You don't get to be both I'm afraid.

                It hurt my dad badly when he understood I am a Jew because of my mum, and he had nothing to do with what my faith or cultural system is.  He's a Christian raised Southern Baptist.  But the truth of the matter is that he doesn't count.

                And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                by Mortifyd on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:56:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That is very nasty, that sentiment. (8+ / 0-)

                  Write a diary on that subject. I can get 20 Jews to defend the fact that I have Jewish heritage and even that I am, regardless of religion and matriarchal stuff, actually as Jewish as I want to be.

                  I love it: I am not Jewish, ethnically, because I had the wrong mother. Wow. Thank goodness people aren't sending folks off the the ghetto for that stuff these days.

                  I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

                  by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:00:03 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  From a scientific perspective (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    commonmass

                    all you are lacking is Jewish Mitochondria ;-)

                    You could be listening to Netroots Radio. "We are but temporary visitors on this planet. The microbes own this place" <- Me

                    by yuriwho on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:05:37 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  well no, it's not really (0+ / 0-)

                    Jews get to decide who is in and who is not.  We decided several thousands of years ago that the dad doesn't count.

                    I can't walk into your Church and claim to be a member and participate fully without going through the necessary requirements to join, now can I?

                    Just the same, you can't walk into the Jewish family (religion is only part of the deal) and announce you're a relative when we decided those criteria you use aren't valid to participate.

                    Not only that, but we ASKED for ghettos originally because we have laws that determine use of public and private space.  We wanted the walls to be able to celebrate fully - carry the children, take a dish to a neighbours - whether you think the rules are important doesn't matter - WE think they are.   The walls worked in our favour until time and ignorance turned them against us.

                    So... remember what I said about knowing all about Jews because you're a Christian?  You're going there.

                    And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                    by Mortifyd on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:11:30 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'll call up my 91 year old grandmother (4+ / 0-)

                      and read this comment to her. Everyone who did not emigrate on her side from Austria-Hungary or Russia is dead. It will make her feel better to know that some of them might not have been "Jews".

                      I think I'll go  back in the closet. 'Cause I am not a Jew, right?

                      I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

                      by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:15:11 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  A lot of my family is dead too (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        commonmass

                        for the same reason, so don't pull that on me.

                        I didn't make Jewish law.  I follow it.  

                        I'm sure you can find a congregation that will be perfectly happy to let you call yourself Jewish.  That doesn't change Jewish law one bit though.

                        And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                        by Mortifyd on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 01:13:50 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I am a Christian. (0+ / 0-)

                          I just called Kossack mayim on that subject. She is converting, and could tell me "real Jews hate you". I'll keep it to myself in the future. Back into the closet for me. I would not want to step on your feet. Because I am not the right kind of Jew. I now see why we kept it such a secret for so many years.

                          I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

                          by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 01:18:57 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't hate you that's ridiculous (0+ / 0-)

                            But you are not a Jew - you are a Christian of Jewish decent.  That's totally cool.  I'm happy you dig your Jewish relatives.  But that doesn't make you a Jew.  Period.

                            And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                            by Mortifyd on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 01:21:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  So some Jews (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      bythesea, yuriwho, commonmass

                      decided something a few thousand years ago and you think that settles the issue? Have you met Jews?

                      Nobody tells me who's part of my family--especially not some medieval halfwit who believed (anti-theistic rant deleted).

                      "Gussie, a glutton for punishment, stared at himself in the mirror."

                      by GussieFN on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:21:32 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I recently came out as having Jewish heritage. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        thebluecrayon, Cassandra Waites

                        Something that my family has repressed for generations. Guess what I get for it?

                        I should have stayed in the closet. People--blood relatives--died in the Holocaust.

                        Thank goodness I can go back into the closet on this. I'm not a "real Jew".

                        I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

                        by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:25:03 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Eh. The real test of Jewishness isn't (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          commonmass

                          your mother, it's if idiots piss on you for no particular reason. You come from a long line of people motivated by this sentiment: "I won't give them the satisfaction."

                          There's a reason that 'the stiff-necked Jew' is a stereotype. Doesn't matter what anyone says. Fuck 'em.

                          "Gussie, a glutton for punishment, stared at himself in the mirror."

                          by GussieFN on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:29:10 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Jewish heritage is not the same as being Jewish (0+ / 0-)

                          and you can be proud of your Jewish relatives.  But you are not a Jew, you are (insert faith here) of Jewish decent.

                          And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                          by Mortifyd on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 01:19:33 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Thanks for spanking me. (0+ / 0-)

                            Like I said, I now know why that was in the closet so many years. Based on you, I don't WANT to be Jewish.

                            I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

                            by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 01:23:07 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm not spanking you (0+ / 0-)

                            But this is really something that chaps my ass.

                            Judaism is not "just" a religion.  It is a people.  Think Chukchee, Arapaho, Dine, etc - a people with an ancient tribal tradition that includes our spirituality.  Every people has the right to determine for themselves who is in and who is out.  Many cultures follow matrilinial decent.  One belongs to a clan or a family group based on that culture's internal methods for determination - outside perceptions are irrelevant.

                            You have already stated you hold Christian beliefs - which are outside the scope of Jewish belief.  You have paternal line relatives who were Jewish - but left for their own reasons and embraced another culture and way of belief.  

                            If being told the reality that by Jewish law you are not a Jew is painful, I am sorry for that.  But why claim something you have no respect for in the first place?  Bend the rules so I can be in too?  How does that honour those relatives you had who were practising Jews?  Who followed the law?  

                            Your friend didn't tell you about how we don't make conversion easy?  That's not because we're assholes, though many like to write it off as that - it's because "conversion" is ADOPTION.  New parents.  New culture.  New life.  New rules.  You have to be all in, just just a little.

                            And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                            by Mortifyd on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 01:35:11 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'll stay Christian, thanks. (0+ / 0-)

                            You have written the nastiest anti-semitic screed I have ever seen here. Congratulations. Like I said, I'll go back in the closet. Man o Man, you really hate people like me. Now, can you understand why people with Jewish heritage can hate you? Exclusive bastards, all of you. The idea of the diary was to be inclusive, and you shat on it. I hope you are happy with that.

                            I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

                            by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:50:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  take it as you like I guess (0+ / 0-)

                            You really don't get I don't have any bad feelings toward YOU at all - what I don't like is your attitude - kind of the very thing you wrote this diary to bitch about, funnily enough.   Defending Torah and Jewish Law is hardly being anti-semitic, so cut it out.

                            There is exclusivity in any identity.  Period.  You are a Christian.  That means you have certain beliefs and ideals you hold in common with other Christians - some of your denomination and some not.  I cannot walk in as I am and inform you I am ALREADY IN your denomination because my Grandfather was - which is effectively what you did.    Re: "coming out" as Jewish, calling yourself a quarter-Jew, etc.  You are claiming a Jewish identity by saying those things.

                            I have to study, I have to be counseled, I have to give up my previous identity to take a new one in Christ and the body of believers, yes?  I have rituals and rites that have to be performed properly with the correct intention to join your community of faith and fellowship.  It would be inappropriate for me to claim that without having gone through the proper steps and choosing to change my culture and belief system no matter who I'm related to.

                            You want me to respect your faith and your community - then you also need to respect mine.   I will not bend the rules for you, nor will many other Jews - some will.  We covered that.  I wouldn't turn you away from my home or my table - but I would expect you to follow my rules in my home, just as I would follow your rules in your home.

                            And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                            by Mortifyd on Tue Jul 05, 2011 at 12:39:48 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Of course I've met them (0+ / 0-)

                        two Jews three opinions.

                        Reform and Humanistic Jews - and even some Conservative Jews are struggling with the reality that they can't make Jewish law or other Jews accept their converts or their intermarried offspring.

                        I get that it hurts to be excluded but the shul I refuse to attend is an orthodox one.

                        And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                        by Mortifyd on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 01:18:09 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Sure. And Orthodox Jews can't (0+ / 0-)

                          make me accept them as Jews, either. I think they're cultish freaks who get off on historical reenactment and baseless superiority. I can't imagine that my opinion would bother them, though. Nobody can make anyone else accept anyone as anything. That's not a problem for me.

                          Why anyone would want to be accepted by Orthodox Jews is beyond me. I've got 'em on both sides of the family tree, like some kind of blight. They think that dressing funny gives them the authority to make the rules. And it does; for themselves.

                          "Gussie, a glutton for punishment, stared at himself in the mirror."

                          by GussieFN on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 01:39:58 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  hey now, I think I look pretty damn sharp :P (0+ / 0-)

                            And since you are a Jew, it's cool for you to feel that way.  You are from the culture, inside the culture, part of the culture.  Lack of belief does not de-Jew you in any way because you meet the internal criteria of the Jewish culture itself.

                            I disagree, largely because I find a lot of freedom oddly enough in wearing black and white and a long as coat and the awesomely bad haircut.    But I am not the kind of frum guy that tells other people they HAVE to be frum, or they are keeping Moshiach from coming or anything like that - I'm too secularly educated and a BT - I chose to be orthodox and chassidic.  I was raised in a non-religious mixed marriage home.  

                            At no time in our history were we ever all frum.  (Are you beginning to understand why I was thrown out of Yeshiva yet?)  At no point (including the arrival of Moshiach may he hurry his ass up already) will we all be frum.  Not going to happen.

                            But we as Jews collectively can argue amongst ourselves who we let in and who we don't without interference from outside.  We don't have to all agree - but those who go against halacha will find there are people who disagree with them - and really, what's new about that?

                            And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                            by Mortifyd on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 02:17:21 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  If she (he?) makes Jewish nose jokes, (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Mortifyd, commonmass, Chinton

              that's embrace enough for me!

              (Oh, and commonmass--did you canvass for equal marriage in Maine on Question One? Maybe we met!)

              "Gussie, a glutton for punishment, stared at himself in the mirror."

              by GussieFN on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:54:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  We have a vocal minority (8+ / 0-)

      much like the Fred Phelps' of this world. Most of us read diaries like this and never bother to comment since it will likely do no good. Faith is based on beliefs that cannot be proven true or false. Those of us that require facts/demonstrable experimental outcomes for our beliefs will never have much of importance to say about faith.

      I think these pie fights are imaginary. Most atheists just keep it to themselves and soldier on.

      You could be listening to Netroots Radio. "We are but temporary visitors on this planet. The microbes own this place" <- Me

      by yuriwho on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:42:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Um... point of order (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      commonmass, jayden, downsouth, skrekk

      Don't drag Jews into this - and really, Muslims either.  We were just minding our own business doing our thing when you lot came along and invented yourselves.  

      Theologically we are VERY different from you.  Much closer really to our brothers in Islam who are also sons of Abraham in the flesh - as we are.

      I'll take the Flying Spagetti Monster and his Noodley Appendage any day over someone who wants to tell me what I really believe is X,Y of Z because they know all about Jews being Christian.

      And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

      by Mortifyd on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:46:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Is that your final answer? (4+ / 0-)
        Don't drag Jews into this - and really, Muslims either.  We were just minding our own business doing our thing when you lot came along and invented yourselves.  
        LOL, I'm sure the Muslims were really put out when Christianity invented itself 600 years before the Prophet Mohammed.
        Theologically we are VERY different from you.
        I guess if you ask Pat Roberston, he would be theologically different from Jews — but then again, he's theologically different than Jesus.

        So, it depends on who you ask, but I would have to disagree with you on this point.

        Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

        by The Red Pen on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 03:22:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  ORLY? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JDsg

          The Muslims are their own - and came later - but they are much closer to use than Christians theologically, though they share traits with each.

          Muslims have their own laws much like Jewish halacha, they have schools where they learn their holy book and commentaries orally, similar in ways to our yeshivas.  They have observances like halal slaughter and foods they avoid similar to our kashrus.  They have their main community prayer celebration on Fridays, we start ours Friday night. They pray multiple times a day facing the city of their faith - so do we.  They follow a lunar religious calendar - surprise, we do too.

          They are our cousins, the sons and daughter of Ishmael and grandchildren of Abraham Avenu.  We are their cousins the sons and daughters of Yitzaak and grandchildren of Abraham Avenu.  We carry the sign of our G-d on our flesh as the sons of Abraham - Christians do not.

          So give me your rundown on Jewish theology since you seem to think it's so similar to Christianity then.  Bring it.

          And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

          by Mortifyd on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 07:25:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Rituals vs. theology (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            commonmass
            Muslims have their own laws much like Jewish halacha, they have schools where they learn their holy book and commentaries orally, similar in ways to our yeshivas.  They have observances like halal slaughter and foods they avoid similar to our kashrus.  They have their main community prayer celebration on Fridays, we start ours Friday night. They pray multiple times a day facing the city of their faith - so do we.  They follow a lunar religious calendar - surprise, we do too.
            These are rituals and cultural artifacts, not theology.  Christianity was heavily influenced by Greek and Roman culture.  The religion itself, is based on Jewish prophecies of the messiah, just as Islam incorporate Jewish canon.
            So give me your rundown on Jewish theology since you seem to think it's so similar to Christianity then.  Bring it.
            That's a big question.  You'll have to be more specific.

            The main probably is that most modern Christians have no clue about Judaism.  The fact that Easter and Pesach happen at the same time (roughly) is not an accident.  Jesus gives seven major speeches and each falls on a Jewish holy day — and the meaning of that day is incorporated into the speech.  Most Christians completely miss that context, but it's there.

            Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

            by The Red Pen on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:50:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  TRP: cut it out. (0+ / 0-)

              I'm not mad at you, but cut it out. I tend to agree with you. You are arguing with someone who went out of their way to make sure that I was aware that my Jewish heritage is suspect. (I have never claimed to be Jewish, BTW). That argument was made in a very nasty way here. I have nothing more to say to that user, and you should not, either. You're wasting your time.

              I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

              by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:54:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  OK (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                commonmass

                I will take your advice.

                Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

                by The Red Pen on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 09:10:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Thanks. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  The Red Pen

                  Remember, you're a friend. This diary attracted some very thoughtful comments. It also attracted assholes. You're not one of those assholes. OK?

                  I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

                  by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 09:15:33 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I hope not (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    commonmass
                    You're not one of those assholes. OK?
                    I have my moments.

                    I'm a little puzzled, was there something wrong, in general with my reply to Mortifyd or was it just that I was engaging him in the first place?

                    Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

                    by The Red Pen on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 09:20:52 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  I guess that would be me (0+ / 0-)

                    but let's all agree I picked it up from something in the air or water, or a gene

                    ...it surely could not have come from a life lived amonst the faithful (all of them some flavor of Christianity) who wanted me to be GODDAMN sure I knew how much trouble I was in

                    how much they held me in contempt and suspicion

                    and all of that judgment on me was predicated on nothing more than an honest answer to their question

                    "do you believe in my God?"

                    some of them were willing to sever ties after knowing me for years, sometimes decades, without the issue having ever been an issue -

                    but once the answer was definitive because the question was posed and unambiguous -

                    I was in the wrong for being blunt, candid, and true to myself (but not their "G"od)

                    So if my initial comment put me in the "asshole" category,

                    my intention was only to help explain to anyone who encounters an Atheist who's swinging hard and heavy and at anything religious

                    ...it might be worthwile to consider it was members of all those wonderful faiths that painstakingly built that "asshole".

                    And for what it's worth,

                    I fight harder for marriage equality than you may ever give me credit for, and at least three of those "friendships" I have spectacularly burned to the ground was specifically over the bullshit "let them have civil unions, just don't poison my marriage" argument.

                    Asshole or whatever else I'm called, it's still just another label to me. I gotta live with the rest, assholes are quite useful at times.

                    George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

                    by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 09:57:13 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  * (0+ / 0-)

                      Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

                      by The Red Pen on Tue Jul 05, 2011 at 08:08:39 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  So, Red Pen - I get it - (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Mortifyd

                        you're the device the teacher uses to "correct" all those students who obviously did not learn your valuable lessons.

                        Makes much more sense now.

                        That you can't even muster anything of value to actually communicate an idea any longer,

                        but still must make your mark

                        That's a powerful lesson

                        George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

                        by snafubar on Tue Jul 05, 2011 at 08:25:54 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  excuse me? (0+ / 0-)

                Coming out as Jewish?  Quarter Jew?  You are certainly trying to claim a Jewish identity.   I'm not sure why though.  And I was rather patient, nasty is a whole other thing.

                I'm sorry your definition of nasty is not hearing what you want.

                And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                by Mortifyd on Tue Jul 05, 2011 at 12:54:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  No kidding they don't (0+ / 0-)

              And that is my point - Christians do not get to define Judaism, who is in, who is out  or anything else because they worship a Jew.  

              Commonmass is both recommending comments and calling me names which I really don't understand because s/he doesn't get to define the limits of inclusion on Judaism - we do.    I don't get a say in Christian culture - s/he doesn't get a say in mine.  Fair, square and we each have our own playgrounds.  But that's not happymaking for cm I guess.

              And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

              by Mortifyd on Tue Jul 05, 2011 at 12:52:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That's not what you said. (0+ / 0-)

                If that's your point then say it.  Don't imply that Christianity is somehow a less legitimate "invented" religion than Judaism or Islam.

                Also don't be making horribly ignorant claims about similarities between Judaism and Islam to buttress your offensive implication.

                Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

                by The Red Pen on Wed Jul 06, 2011 at 11:28:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  I'm one who has come to your aid - I just hope (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      commonmass, mapamp, RockyMtnLib, downsouth

      that you and commonmass realize that when terms like "imaginary friend" and "monkey in the clouds" are used they aren't meant to denigrate you or your faith per se, but to remind your coreligionists that their faith isn't relevant to people who don't share that faith.

      That you're a Muslim puts you in the same boat as atheists like me - a socially disfavored minority who appreciates having a secular government and religious freedom.

    •  Not all people of faith would tolerate an atheist (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JDsg, mapamp

      on their "side"; some not even on the same playing field - we are to be shunned or feared.

      When you start feeling insulted by phrases that atheists make about your faith, try imagining what the atheist has been enduring through his journey from people who treat the atheist with overt suspicion and even contempt or fear simply because we have no faith.

      I've encountered people of different faiths come together against an atheists; for in their view even contradictory and incompatable gods are somehow preferrable to that unknown quantity that surely deserves everyone's suspicion - a man (woman) who has NO god -

      they say that without a "G"od we are compelled to commit evil

      they say we have no moral compass

      and they make no hesitation in saying it, condemning my entire life and character without knowing anything more about it than that I don't find a god in it.

      I've come to the "aid" of many people and given of my time and my money to people without asking what religion they aren't

      I've had people walk away from me and never speak to me again (even those who had known me for a considerable time) once they knew I was an atheist.

      So the next time you see a "highly insulting" phrase from an atheist, perhaps you might consider what their walk through life has been like, and how the extremism in faith has shaped them.

      I will say this - "downsouth" - in the parts of the South I have lived in an visited, as a Muslim, you have far more to be wary of coming from a Christian than you do an atheist,

      ...regardless of how provocative and insulting we might be when speaking in the abstract on a blog.

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 09:34:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It varies. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mapamp, commonmass
        I will say this - "downsouth" - in the parts of the South I have lived in an visited, as a Muslim, you have far more to be wary of coming from a Christian than you do an atheist,

        I have had great interactions with Christians here, both those I've known my whole life and those I've met since my reversion to Islam.  I've also had horrible (and in one case violent) confrontations with those same two groups.  Intolerance is still a strong force in the South, but not as strong as it used to be. I will say, though, that I've never been confronted by a person who proclaimed himself an atheist other than online.

        Terror has no religion.

        by downsouth on Tue Jul 05, 2011 at 07:45:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "confronted" (0+ / 0-)

          that's a little vague. What do you mean you were "confronted"

          This is an open forum, people are invited to participate.

          For if it was in response to a diary or a comment

          both of which are put here ostensibly as an invitation to response and participation

          does that mean that because the atheist has an opposing view, they are not supposed to participate?

          You seem to be saying two things -

          first you admit no atheist has ever come after you in person

          but when you're engaged in a forum that is by its design open to any and all to participate, you fault them for taking the opportunity?

          the diarist has asked me more than once why I only confront Christians and not Jews or Muslims or any other faith

          and I said I'm reactionary - I only swing back at what swings at me, either directly or indirectly -

          so that in my experience, not only have I (the atheist) have not provoked or challenged you as a Christian, I commented on your handle because in those places I've lived and traveled in

          The Christians want to talk to you.

          I went camping in the Pisgah National forest, the nearest town to where we left paved roads to begin our hike was called "South Mountain". When my buddy and I came back out, (driving a Volkswagen Rabbit Diesel, both of us with no southern accent or having been accused of "yankee" ones) we found ourselves driving through the heart of a KKK rally.

          Rebel flags lined the road on both sides for half a mile. That we spotted the bonfires from ten miles away and were glad we escaped the forest - to find they were in the middle of town - was pretty surreal.

          Now, if we were unfortunate enough to have broken down, do you think those people would have cared that I was an atheist, or if you were with me - a Muslim?

          I don't think they'd make much a distinction, and the book they often turn to for vindication has a cross on it; as was the shape of the thing they were burning.

          Terror sometimes indeed has a religion.

          Show me a group of overt, proud, atheists who are at this moment tearing into some community and causing death BECAUSE their atheism tells them to.

          Can't do it - because there is no "book of Atheism"

          we're often labelled as the force of evil - not because atheism has some dogma anyone can refer to -

          but we MUST be evil simply because we have no Religion that would surely keep us from Evil

          ...and yet everytime someone who is overtly shouting their religion as they act  violently to harm others, whatever religion the act on gives them a free pass and simply dismisses them as ones who are not properly interpreteing the message.

          Again, the cognitive dissonance is rather sad for such an "intelligent" species to embody it.

          George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

          by snafubar on Tue Jul 05, 2011 at 08:41:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  It's a matter of identification - like (6+ / 0-)

    'islamaphobia'

    It is wrong to be urge discriminatioon against someone simply because they call themselves a Mormon or Christian or Muslim - and I don't.

    On the other had it is perfectly correct - indeed required - to criticize an ideology or theology that one considers to be evil.

    And this includes making fun of such theology - thus "magic underware" and "FSM", which are quite appropriate comments on superstition.

    Just as many atheists may go to far in attacking someone personally simply based upon their religious identification, many religious consider an attack on their theology to be a personal attack.

    Blasphemy is not a crime - it is a civic good.

    John McCain is deeply disappointed that Barack Obama has failed to follow through on John McCain's campaign promises.

    by tiponeill on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:32:22 AM PDT

  •  We are all working toward a common goal (8+ / 0-)

    on this site and this is why I get so frustrated.  We all--Believers and Unbelievers and those that are Not Sure--want our country to be a better place for all.  We want the same things, people!  

    So, again, I say the important word is respect.  Disagreement is fine, but when someone begins using the "Monkey in the clouds", "Flying Spaghetti Monster" type of terms for *God--whatever one's perception of gods might be--I then realize that respect is not there and begin to wonder.  I wonder if those that are so intent on trashing me and others who believe are willing to remember that I AM A LIBERAL!  

    For those who are Believers, respect travels the other way, too.  Agnostics and Atheists are working for the same goals--THEY ARE LIBERALS!  So, it does not work to trash those who do not believe.  

    We need to be a team.  We need to elect people who will represent our common causes.  Let's get to the job at hand!  WE ARE ALL LIBERALS!

    Peace, Hope, Faith, Love

    by mapamp on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:34:31 AM PDT

    •  Do I have to 'respect' L Ron Hubbard (4+ / 0-)

      because some scientologists are LIBERALS ?

      How about Joseph Smith ?

      How about Benny Hinn and the faith healers ?

      Or the imams who order teenaged girls to be stoned ?

      Please tell me where the line should be drawn, and which superstitions must be "respected" and which not .

      John McCain is deeply disappointed that Barack Obama has failed to follow through on John McCain's campaign promises.

      by tiponeill on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 11:52:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You don't have to respect anyone you don't (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mapamp, bythesea, Mortifyd, downsouth

        want to respect. However here you have made it clear that you don't respect me. I'll make a note of it.

        I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

        by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:03:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  People - as people - should all be respected as (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          skrekk, tiponeill, ubertar

          people. Beliefs, ideas, even religious ones, are not. Some ideas do deserve to be mocked. Would you posit that the belief that our President is a Kenyan interloper whose birth certificate is a forgery deserves respect, because to do otherwise would denigrate the people who hold those cherished beliefs? If you answer no, then I would ask why do religious beliefs get to be held to a different standard?

          This idea that terms like "Flying Spaghetti Monster" and "imaginary friend" are denigrating to one personally is just silly.

          liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

          by RockyMtnLib on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:51:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  How have I done that ? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ubertar

          that is exactly what I am talking about - the insistence of the religious not only that THEY be respected, but that their superstitions be respected.

          Your superstitions are not entitled to any respect that they can't earn for themselves - they are not above criticism.

          It is the same religious fervor that demands blasphemy to be a crime

          John McCain is deeply disappointed that Barack Obama has failed to follow through on John McCain's campaign promises.

          by tiponeill on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 01:17:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Respect doesn't exist when you demand that people (4+ / 0-)

      who don't share your beliefs adopt the language of your cult.

      •   Ramen to that (7+ / 0-)

        That includes demands that I always write "god" with a capital "G" otherwise I'm being disrespectful. My relative teabagger insisted on that from me - "If you have no more respect for my Savior than that, then I'll start writing your name with lower case letters".

        It basically insist that we have to act as if we hold their deity in high esteem - even if we don't.

        liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

        by RockyMtnLib on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:54:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I got the capital "G" treatment at the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RockyMtnLib

          Street Prophets site; by a guy who later called me a "terrorist" for being candid about how much damage people of faith had caused in my life. (his claim was that by telling people their faith caused me pain, I was demanding that no one ever speak of faith, as a terrorist would "or else"

          Which led me to say something like

          "is Psalm 23:4 a joke? "Oh though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil" =

          ...but if you don't capitalize "G"od when you write it, I'm going to have a meltdown?"

          George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

          by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 10:04:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  i'm at a loss (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, Prof Haley, jayden, snafubar

    it's really hard, for people whom you share most or all of your secular views with, to hear you (and others) identify on that one point (teh christianity) with the people who work night and day to roll back our rights and freedoms.  it just is.  

    it's not the moderate to liberal christian's fault that the right wingy ones get all the press, and devote their lives to things like taking your gay rights and my uterine rights and my children's right to learn about evolution.....

    but it's also not the fault of non-christians that 'christians' are a big part of our problem...a big part of what we are opposing...

    i'm willing to disclose here that i was raised catholic, and think that jesus was probably a pretty down cat...but that the concept of being 'saved', of divine forgiveness, is downright offensive to me.  i think person-to-person forgiveness is lovely and necessary, but the concept of divine forgiveness, to me, is vile.  i'm more into karma.  
     

    "What you do speaks so loud that I cannot hear what you say"~Ralph Waldo Emerson

    by 73rd virgin on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:06:21 PM PDT

  •  Mark Twain wrote (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, Prof Haley, tiponeill

    Letters from the Earth.  I think it is pretty interesting for someone to have written it years ago.  Of course he still uses derogatory terms of the day which can be off-putting today, but beyond that, it is very insightful.

  •  I'm an atheist (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, mapamp, yuriwho

    I like pie. On the other hand, I don't like pie fights.

    I think I know that most theists don't really understand what atheism is. For example, here is an article from the self-declared “Anglican Mainstream”:
    http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/...

    It discusses a book that supposedly demolishes the atheist “argument”, starting with the following nonsense:

    At the outset of the book, we specify a premise with which all atheists would agree: Either God exists or he does not exist. There is no possibility of a third option.

    Well, I'm an atheist, as I said, and I'm also a student of language and of natural logic, and I am persuaded that bivalent logic is incapable of representing many kinds of knowledge and belief held by humans, certainly including their beliefs about gods. Therefore, while I do not (for obvious reasons) say that that premise is false, I still do not accept it as adequate as a way to represent the matter. As some might put it, it doesn't have a truth value; as others might put it, it can be true or false or uninterpretable, depending on the context (and on how you define “god”, “true”, and “false”, among other things).

    Theists don't seem capable of making the leap of faith toward human responsibility for all that humans are; atheists don't seem capable of make the leap of faith toward putting that responsibility on something nonhuman and intangible.

    There are some political domains where none of this matters, and others where it may matter very much. And there's nothing we can do about it.

  •  If I may, I don't care what anyone's (6+ / 0-)

    religion is, nor do I care if they belong to a religion.  If the person is kind, caring, considerate, compassionate (and has a sense a humor -- yeah, I threw that in ;)  that's all that I look for in a person.

    What I won't tolerate is someone trying to proselytize me regarding their religion, nor will I tolerate someone's religious beliefs used to create laws on same beliefs that will affect me.  

    To every millionaire who decries they don't want their grandchildren paying for the deficit, I say: PAY MORE TAXES NOW and your grandkids won't have a deficit burden.

    by gooderservice on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:43:07 PM PDT

  •  I call bullshit. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, RockyMtnLib

    You have yet to see any progressive christians troll around in atheists diaries?

    I think what you mean to say is that the theists stay in their own camp and everything will be fine, and the atheists should stay in their camp and likewise.

    Hooray for groups.

    Let's all hold our heads at the loss of "community" in favor of good fences for good neighbors - we'll all try to vote for the same candidates in the face of the political opposition, but we have to sequester ourselves within the Kos to keep the carnage to a minimum.

    Your diary reeks of favoritism. You have yet to see anyone troll around in an atheist diary.

    How many atheist diaries are there?

    Why is there a Street Prophets?

    That's right, because the Orange - how did one of the users put it before the announcement of the end of SP -

    "there a lot of people (at Kos) who need serious anger management training"

    Let me throw at you the one thing that was thrown at me - that dastardly atheist - right before I became Persona Non Grata at the "cool blue" Street Prophets:

    "Anyone who does not have faith will likely be a suicide victim"

    Want me to provide the link?

    The guy who wrote that was not banned; the guy he wrote it to, was

    for talking about suicide.

    Lets not draw any more bright lines between who did the wrong thing and who feels a chip on their shoulder because of it.

    If people find it provocative to be told there is no "G"od,

    please accept that it also suck royally to be told that because we can't see one that

    - we're not looking hard enough
    - there's something wrong with our character for not wanting to
    - and we get no credit for at least being candid about what we can't find

    because if I had to stand before "G"od and tell him whether or not I've ever been able to feel "H"im -

    father

    son

    or the holy spirit

    and my answer depended on me being honest wtih him

    Then I am going to hell either way.

    Because If I said I saw/felt "H"him -

    I'm lying. ("H"e'd know that)

    and if I didn't find him, I'm going to hell anyway.

    And you think the atheists are being provocative?

    Seriously

    "Anyone who does not have faith would likely be a suicide victim.:

    If I swallowed a drawer full of pills, blew my head off with a gun I will not buy precisely because it woudl be too easy, or figured out how to tie a knot that would hold from a beam in the garage

    nobody here would say they were surprised.

    So let's be careful about who's offensive, provocative, or demeaning to who.

    There's a much larger backstory here, both from SP and a friend of 25 years who contacted me on Facebook who still wants me to know what a great guy he is, what great friends we are

    and when I said

    "Please, let this be. It hurts"

    Said

    "I can't let it be, I care about you"

    The irony gives me a fucking headache.

    He's causeing me pain, but he cares so much he won't stop

    Dont' be too hard on the atheists

    We fuckign earned all this and

    YES

    YES

    YES

    If progressives want to stop taking shit for the fundamentalists extremists

    YOU

    have to be on the front lines of that war.

    Because to those fundies, we atheists are NOT ever goint to be a party to a civil conversation, we are the embodiment of EVIL to them and we are the very thing they seek to destroy regardless fo their political party

    SO we CANT have that conversation

    It's up to the moderates to tell the extremists that you

    the moderates

    are paying the price for their assholery

    Leaving it up to guys like me to somehow be able to tell the difference to someone who prays to "G"od and insists I'll spend eternity in Hell, or someone who prays to "G"od and merely wants us to pull the same levers in the voting booth -

    I can't tell who's who from your T-shirts.

    And I will always be

    a living

    breathing

    walking

    talking

    (for now)

    example of what carnage and mangled wreckage that falsely-pious, overly zealous, blindly oblivious people can build while they say they arent' trying.

    I earned this anger.

    I wear these scars because someone went way far out of their way to make goddamn sure they cut me (and by now it's a much longer list)

    Now why is that my fault?

    George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

    by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 01:24:10 PM PDT

    •  Your anger is frankly amusing. n/t (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      The Red Pen, JDsg, downsouth

      I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

      by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 01:33:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That you would be "amused" by someone's (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RockyMtnLib, mapamp

        anger, or despair

        says more than "n/t"

        perhaps this may have some bearing on the problem.

        Nah,

        Laugh it up.

        But save us the surprise or lack of understanding in the conflict, if you would.

        George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

        by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 02:03:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, really dude (1+ / 2-)
          Recommended by:
          downsouth
          Hidden by:
          snafubar, yuriwho

          You are a riot — a sputtering self-parody.

          Take a complement where you can get it.  I can't imagine that you have many friends.

          Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

          by The Red Pen on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 03:18:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And you wonder where the hostility comes from (0+ / 0-)

            what kind of person sits there and openly mocks and celebrates -

            while insisting that he must have no friends

            ...a guy who is already as damaged as you say he is.

            What kind of life do you have to mock someone so badly damaged as you insist?

            Do you trip quadraplegics and tear down the "do not feed the bears" signs, too?  

            That you celebrate in the piling on means one of two things

            You slow down at car crashes hoping to see a body

            and that when the next car crashes, not only won't you be surprised or shocked, you'll be expecting it.

            So that you call me a "parody" -

            what  you want

            what you all want

            is to goad the other guy - me -  into doing something so unspeakable that you can all then stand and point

            "See!!! He's as bad as we said he was!!!"

            Pile on, I don't care.

            I do care, actually, that's what amuses you and titilates you. Wind up the doll and watch the tricks it performs

            But people like you will inevitably have more to apologize for to whatever you think judges you than I will. Here I am, the heathen atheist whos' all wrapped up in how mere mortals treat each other on this Earth because we - each other - is all we've got. That you find such joy in someone who's as dysfunctional as I am - that is the point you're trying to make, am I correct? -
            is a question you have not yet answered.

            What gives your life joy?

            I participate in these diaries because I was a kid who once walked this Earth with my own joy. I was happy, I did not feel like I was missing anything, I did not know I had any enemies. People knocked on my door, so to speak, they pulled me aside and said they were my friends, and then told me that what made me their friend was that I was obligated to see and hear and feel somethign I cannot see. I'm not lying; I've tried to find gods. Any of them - nobody answers my calls. So I was honest when I said that the rocks and the stars and one another is all I can have confidence in.

            And those people who said they "cared" about me pounded me into the ground that not only was I wrong, but that in trying to hang on to my only peace I was somehow interfering in their right to shout about "G"od to their pursuit of happiness.

            Wiscmass says he doesn't understand where the hostility comes from, and like those at Street Prophets, they profess that they are NOT their -wingnut-brother's keeper.

            Their brother in Christ can keep building people like me and nobody from the "moderate" team wants to take credit for how we got here, nor do they dare shut down the factory because they insist that we (the atheists) would never stop there and we'll be after them next.

            I'm not after anybody who isn't after me.

            That you're such a snide person yourself that you'd make a comment like the one you did - designed for no purpose than to get a rise out of me (that thing that you think I shouldn't do in the first place)

            that's priceless. The Irony Police must be on strike not to have pulled you over.

            You really have no idea, and that's the point

            it's a blog

            they are just characters on a screen,

            who really cares about the life on the other end

            YOu demand you have the freedom - or at least take the opportunity - to say anything that you feel

            and then you surely disavow anything that comes from it

            "well, I had no control over how he reacted to it"

            So then why did you take the effort to put the remark out there -

            why?

            Because you can.

            Well, using that reasoning - especially a dysfunctional "parody" that I must be -

            who knows what that lunatic would do with it

            and yet its' fun to find out, isn't it?

            That's a neat gig if you can get it; sadly you don't understand that in a society we are all interdependent.

            That hostility that wiscmass is so perlexed about?

            You two are the best examples of where it comes from, so all I ask is that you drop the pretense that you actually object to it, want it to end, or that in the end it doesnt' - as he said - "amuse" the whole lot of you.

            This is the nature of what passes for a "discussion" and "community" in America in 2011.

            That this country is eating itself from the inside does not surprise me at all.

            Guys like you do make me ask where the hunger comes from, though. It makes me shivver to think of how blind I would have to be in order to say such a thing.

            You have no idea what's on the other end, and that's the point - you don't care.

            and yet you still took the opportunity to tell me personally what a joke you think I was.

            You see, I can't even quote a good example of how this might turn out, or someone will accuse me of making "threats" that I want to make that come true

            and yet, it still remains, that you throw your words out there not knowing how the other will react to it

            not caring

            and taking no responsibility for all the giddy fun you're having at this moment.

            Really - who does that?

            What you want, what you're doing by making such a comment that had no constructive purpose to the conversation at large but to further humiliate and denigrate the person who you just openly admitted is not screwed together as well as you think a person should be, is to amuse yourself.

            "Hey, everybody - look at this guy!"

            I do expect that. Some days, guys like you are my best reason to keep going, just to prove Non Illegitimus Carborundum.

            Meanwhile, you go out to get more pumice and then stand around - amused - "wow, look how worn down that guy is"

            Some day - I dont' hope for it, but if you're honest enough to read the headlines of this country, this planet, you'll be in a situation where you can either watch a person take their own life or snap and go the other way and take as many as they can with them

            but it was so much fun to watch

            See? Now someone will say I made a threat.

            But the point is, you take no responsibility for any of it.

            You're counting on the guy who you just said was broken to still have good brakes, know how and when to use them - and to care that he should use them.

            I get what little strength I get not from gods, but from asking myself how people like you can go to sleep at night thinking you're the "good" and "normal" ones, while I'm the outcast, the loner, the freak.

            You'd never have the courage to ask yourself how I got this way.

            If that moment ever comes to you, a mirror would give you the answer you're looking for.

            But I dont' think you're looking for answers.

            That was the point behind my comment.

            You're out to "amuse" yourselves.

            Oh, what a glorious time was had by all.

            Except maybe for that one guy...

            If "friends" are people like you, that i don't have any is not a fault on my end.

            well - you've already judged me; from a few postings on a blog, you are sure you know all you need to know about me.

            and that also may have some bearing on our problem.  

            George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

            by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 04:22:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wow (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              commonmass

              What do you do for a second act?

              Maybe you should calm down, though.  I'm just having a little fun, at your expense, and you appear not to have any budget constraints in that regard.  Really, you're talking this waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too seriously.  It's a holiday.  Try to enjoy yourself.

              Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

              by The Red Pen on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 06:52:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That you are openly admitting that you are having (0+ / 0-)

                fun at anothers expense

                is why I will hope - (I can't pray) that you pull this kind of stupid stunt within arms reach of someone who will prove to you how sick, cruel

                and blindly stupid

                you are.

                Having fun at another's expense

                you make my skin crawl.

                and that surely amuses you even more.

                ugly, gross and just plain unneccessary.

                My second act?

                I don't act, asshole.

                This is not a game for me, and that you think it is only reveals your lack of humanity.

                You are a rotten bastard, and if you have a problem with that

                your opinion means as much to me as mine does do you.

                That you still claim all the burden is mine for taking this less seriously, and yet you're still here adding fuel to the fire make clear to the sober and lucid ones in the room exactly the point you deliberately missed about the "don't feed the bears sign,"

                The bear doesn't have to read the sign.

                You're supposed to read the sign, because the bear doesn't know better not to maul you

                so if you tear down the sign so that you can go ahead and feed the bear anyway

                what fool (I know the answer to this one already) then blames the bear for mauling him in the end?

                You'd probably sue the zoo for not making the sign stronger so that you could not tear it down.

                you're a belligerent ass, and you get what you get because you're out there eagerly fishing for it.

                Take your indignation that you found it and swallow hard because this is all in your hands.

                That you put all the effort to have things turn out the way you expect on the person you are  berating for having taken things too seriously and who doesn't have a grip on what is really happening -

                says more about you than anything I could post.

                You're going to find a live wire some day and blame everyone else but yourself for getting burned.

                Good luck with that.

                George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

                by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:15:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  * (0+ / 0-)

                  Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

                  by The Red Pen on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:28:24 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  that's not even mature passive aggressive (0+ / 0-)

                    it's just a sign that I guess you really are just as dysfunctional as anything you object to.

                    Either have the courage to say something, or have the maturity to walk away.

                    What DO you want from me now that you've started this stupid conflagration?

                    What do you want?

                    George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

                    by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:32:18 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  * (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      commonmass

                      Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

                      by The Red Pen on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 09:11:39 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I think you need a hobby (0+ / 0-)

                        you're a sick little bastard, and since I can't pray, I don't believe in karma, I'll just rest tonight knowing that the world doesn't play favorites.

                        Rotten shit will happen to you, as it does to us all.

                        Some of us, as you've shown tonight

                        have fucking earned it, you prick.

                        Since you seem to be so proud of what you say,

                        that's quite a badge you've given yourself tonight.

                        George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

                        by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 10:11:32 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  * (0+ / 0-)

                          Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

                          by The Red Pen on Tue Jul 05, 2011 at 06:58:04 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  * (0+ / 0-)

                            I guess you really do want to prove that you not only enjoy antagonizing me, there is a morbid lust in your head to see just how far you can push it

                            after all, you know that the other guy is wrong, what' the harm.

                            I saw a guy run a red light at a left-turn arrow once. It happens all the time, no harm no foul because the opposing traffic is sitting still at their red light waiting for it to turn green and everyone can see there are cars in front of them.

                            On this particular day, one car in the opposing traffic, which was stopped, waiting for it's green light to proceed straight across the intersection,

                            ...the instant it turned green, gunned it. I mean you could see the front end lift because he put his foot right in it

                            Now, I gotta believe he saw the car he was aiming right at, since he was apparently looking up to know the light had turned green, and yet he set out on what was inevitably a collision.

                            Why?

                            Well the only obvious answer since I never got to ask him was that the other guy who was running the red light was clearly in the wrong, so if there was a collision, the guy who gunned it at the green light, despite there clearly being no clear path in front of him, assumed he would be absolved from responsiblity in the wreck and the other guy would be at fault.

                            Two problems with this

                            First - thats a sick level of arrogance to assume that wrecking two cars and that nobody would be injured is worth proving that point

                            Second, to know it's just that easy to do something you know he'd never do under any other circumstances just because he was certain the blame would fall on someone else.

                            Google "Millgram experiment; shock generator" and see if you can draw a line.

                            YOu don't know what I'm doing right now.

                            But you're willing to have what fun you can have because - well, it looks like fun and hey - the other guy is clearly wrong  -

                            and your tagline is bizarre

                            You found some nuggest of wisdom that says harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die

                            And yet you're feeding - meticulously spoon feeding now, with asterisks - a guy who clearly has a long history of resentment

                            and I guess you want to see if it will kill him?

                            Red Pen, I despise you. I loathe you. I think you are a person who would push a suicide jumper off the ledge. If suicides were posted on the internet like American Idol and who died was dependent on who got the most votes, you'd not have any time left in your day to watch anything else.

                            You might take a few days off, or quit your job altogether.

                            Because the only way I can "win" this argument is to do something horrible, irreversible, maybe with consequence for others,

                            that I'm such a spiteful bastard that I won't give you the satisfaction is the card you're playing.

                            You, are a rotten person, to the core.

                            and since you can say whatever you want because you don't care what the response is, (but it sure is fun to keep getting them, like quarters in a vending machine) you have nothing to lose.

                            You've already lost more than I could ever take from you.

                            you're an empty soul to play this game

                            Congratulations, you've proved something after all.

                            George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

                            by snafubar on Tue Jul 05, 2011 at 07:14:17 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  * (0+ / 0-)

                            Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

                            by The Red Pen on Tue Jul 05, 2011 at 12:20:21 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh, and bears can't read (0+ / 0-)

              And quadraplegics can't walk.  So:

              Do you trip quadraplegics and tear down the "do not feed the bears" signs, too?
              I can't trip a quadriplegic and it's not worth the effort to tear down any signs.

              Think before you rant.

              Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

              by The Red Pen on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 06:54:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  do you have a life? (0+ / 0-)

                you are loving each and every bit of this, so that you would object to what I write is hard to justify.

                You'd obviously be disappointed if I gave up, because you've kept coming back to have the last word.

                you're driving this bus.

                You want me to stop, then you can very well do the same.

                you don't like me?

                You have issues with my attitude?

                Tilting at a windmill only makes you a very bored man amusing himself, unless you have other plans.

                What you want is for me to say I'm so pissed I'm going to skull fuck you with an egg beater, and then go running to someone and demand I be banned.

                Funny thing is that I had nothing to say to you before you decided to share your views of who you think I am; I guess therefore I'm invited to share back.

                that you are indeed having such glee that you can inspire my anger like this makes  you a sick son of a bitch

                If you have a problem with my opinion of you

                It's mutual

                If I ever call you a motherfucker, let's be clear that it's a warning to your mom in the hope that she might get a head start

                Is that what you wanted?

                Is this how you prove that atheists are the bad guys and you're here to make peace and sing kumbaya with us all, except I - big bad atheist - made that impossible.

                "Bears cant' read"

                So when it's convenient, you take everything literally just to be a prick, but other than that everything - like my opinions and attitude -- are a fucking joke to you.

                You get what you come for, dont' you dare walk it back like oh, you were sitting at home knitting smiling faces and I came after you with a knife.

                My reaction does not upset you,

                ... any six year old can see that a reaction is precisely what you're after, why you keep coming back to get more.

                So what's your game -

                What do you want from me?

                I pointed out why religion has become such a sore spot for me, and you're doing precisely what made it so painful - mocking me for it, and then deciding for me that my pain means nothing to you.

                Which is precisely the point. Thank you for being today's example of how to piss in an open wound and then blame the poor bastard who's sick from the infection.

                Why are you investing so much energy in a person who you insist has so much wrong with him, knowing you can't do a thing about it?

                ...unless you're just bored and this amuses you?

                You're really a rotten person.

                But hey, I don't mean anything to you, so that shouldn't hurt at all.

                However, the next time you think atheists are going off on a christian for no good reason, check the brutal clarity of a mirror before you start swinging next time.

                then again, I'm sure you wont' see the problem.

                Thanks for being todays Daily Kos Poster Child for

                "How To Heal Old Wounds and Make A More Peaceful, Co-operative Community"

                George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

                by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:05:46 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  "I can't imagine that you have many friends" (0+ / 0-)

            wow.

            I guess you got cheated in grade school that you have to take such a cheap shot now.

            I would say I was surprised, but thank you for proving my point.

            No matter how upset I am, you see no harm, and feel no hesitation in just making it as personal as you can, with nothing invested in the outcome.

            Good for you.

            George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

            by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 05:53:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  That you would "rec" the comment with a (0+ / 0-)

        reply like that makes my skin crawl.

        It's the ghost of JCHFleetguy....

        George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

        by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 02:04:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Not your fault (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      commonmass, snafubar

      that people were and are cruel.  

      And Progressive Christians do have a responsibility to speak out against the haters.  

      And this statement made to you?

      "Anyone who does not have faith will likely be a suicide victim"

      Is just wrong.  People choose to have faith in a god or not.  Each person must choose for themselves, and you have.  People go on and live their lives no matter what choice they have made.  Living one's life is not always easy, but all of us--atheist, agnostic, believer--all do so.

      Peace, Hope, Faith, Love

      by mapamp on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 04:54:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  and on those nights I sat alone (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mapamp

        pondering the decision enough was enough

        at that moment

        that path was a path to peace as well

        and there is nothing more perverse, cruel, and painful than those who condemned that choice as well

        that they would never understand how they who said suicide is unacceptable could at that same moment have become the most irresistable cheerleader to commit the act in their honor -

        What saved me on those nights wasn't "G"od

        People do choose to have faith or not.

        Some other people also choose to deny the possibility or validity of that choice to others, all the while bleating about how precious their freedom to believe is.

        and THAT is what built this monster everyone is sure they see before them

        that they deny their own handiwork

        explains why the monster never calms down

        fortunately for the faithful, their faith sheilds them from their responsibility in the whole saga

        and that

        is why it never ends.

        or sometimes why it does -

        George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

        by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 10:17:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Really? (4+ / 0-)
    I have yet to see any progressive Christian of any stripe here on the Daily Kos troll around in the diaries of atheists to antagonize.

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    That only took me a couple minutes to find.

    "The first rule of pillow fight club is do not talk about pillow fight club." --Keith Olbermann

    by Julie Waters on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 02:27:59 PM PDT

  •  I'm less that thriled at your trashing of FSM. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    snafubar, skrekk

    I find it hard to accept people saying on one hand 'my idea of God must be respected!' while throwing firebombs at someone else's conception of God.  You find it ludicrous?  Well, some atheists view your conception of God in the same way.  But it's ok for you to ridicule, but not be ridiculed?

    Only the 'right' religions must not be mocked.

    I don't know how many FSM followers are out there, but I do remember hearing that the folks who claim 'Jedi' as their religion are quite numerous these days.  Do you get to mock them too?

    •  Wasn't the FSM explicitly satirical? (4+ / 0-)

      As a card-carrying member of the Church of The SubGenius, I have no problem with satirical religions, of course.

      The SubGenius Church was, however, formulated to highlight and satirized the extremes of religious nuttery, and the FSM was created to satirize religion itself.

      I guess another feature is the Church of the SubGenius is that by design, if someone says, "That's stupid," the answer is, "Well, duh."

      I guess I don't understand taking the FSM seriously enough to be offended by criticism of it.  Please explain further.

      Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

      by The Red Pen on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 03:14:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, wasn't the FSM created expressly to (4+ / 0-)

        satirize the Kansas Board of Education's decision a few years ago to allow intelligent design to be taught in public schools?  Linky

      •  Does it matter how a religion begins? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        skrekk

        Or how many 'true believers' it has?

        Many people believe that Scientology was started as a joke and moneymaking scam by L Ron Hubbard.  But there are now massive numbers of scientologists all over the world.

        I've also been an ordained SubGenius for a couple of decades, and really, if you look carefully, there are a lot of universal truths buried in the literature among the 'nuttiness'.

        Also, at one time, there were no more than a dozen or so 'Christians' in the world, but did that make them any less 'real' of a religion?

        What if there is only one true believer in FSM, and it was started as satire?  Is it any less a religion if so?

      •  And btw, what about the latter half of (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        oblios arrow

        my comment?

        Are people who identify as 'Jedi' mockable by Christians?  What about Scientologists?  What about religious Taoists (as opposed to philosophical Taoists, that is)?

        Who gets to draw the line and decide whose religion 'counts' and whose is mockable?

        •  Here's a line (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          commonmass

          1. Any religion which makes testable claims about the physical universe that are thus proven false, is mock-able.

          The "Jedi" religion makes testable claims about the physical universe — and I'll bet you don't have the midichlorians to prove me wrong.

          Scientology makes testable claims about the physical universe.

          If you willing to accept that stories of miracles and wonders are not literally true, then Christianity (and associated faiths) does not make any testable claims about the physical universe.

          Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

          by The Red Pen on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 05:10:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Erm, why the split? (0+ / 0-)

            Why does Christianity get the 'if you are willing to accept...not literally true', but the others don't get the same caveat?

            If your line is 'testable claims about the physical universe', than leave it at that.  Don't give special dispensation to Christianity simply because otherwise it would flunk your bright line test.

            The resurrection of Christ is something that many Christians 'literally' believe in.

            Besides, all a religion has to do to meet your 'line' is to make time dependent claims about the past.  'X thousand years ago, Y happened.'  Well, it's not testable now, so suddenly it passes your test.

            We can't 'test' whether or not Christ was resurrected, but we could have if we'd 'tested' it at the time.  Simply having the miracles happen thousands of years in the past 'insulates' them from your test.

            •  Details (0+ / 0-)
              Why does Christianity get the 'if you are willing to accept...not literally true', but the others don't get the same caveat?

              If your line is 'testable claims about the physical universe', than leave it at that.  Don't give special dispensation to Christianity simply because otherwise it would flunk your bright line test.

              Scientology claims it can cure autism.  Also Google "touch assist" — a pseudo-medical procedure that it claims can bring people out of comas.

              The "Jedi" religion claims the existence of something called "midichlorians" which can be measured by instruments.  If Obi Wan Kenobi can measure Anakin Skywalker's midichlorians with a machine, then I should be able to measure yours with the same machine.

              These claims are claims about literal truth.  If you do not take them literally then they don't mean anything.  Miracles, signs and wonders all mean something even it they're not literally true.

              The resurrection of Christ is something that many Christians 'literally' believe in.
              So?  It's not clear what "literally" believing in the resurrection entails.  The Gospel narratives weren't even consistent concerning what it meant.  In some stories, Jesus is flesh-and-blood, in others, He's non-corporeal.  These conflicting tales are kept in the canon because the important idea is that Jesus overcame death; the exact meaning of that is left, to some extent, as an exercise for the reader to decide on his or her own.
              Simply having the miracles happen thousands of years in the past 'insulates' them from your test.
              Miracles happen all the time.  You can't test for them now, you couldn't test for them 1000 years ago.  They are a matter of faith and otherwise appear to be events in the same physical universe that gives us non-miraculous events.

              Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

              by The Red Pen on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:43:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  the cognitive dissonance - it burns - (0+ / 0-)
                Miracles happen all the time.  You can't test for them now, you couldn't test for them 1000 years ago.  They are a matter of faith and otherwise appear to be events in the same physical universe that gives us non-miraculous events.

                That you can insist miracles happen as fact soley on the basis that you can't test for them -

                ...which is, as a matter of - as you say

                "They are a matter of faith"

                Faith is the suspension of reality that is required to believe in something that is not in reality possible.

                So your proof that miracles happen is that people who have faith that there are miracles say they do?

                Have you ever been allowed to serve on a jury with reasoning like that?

                Thats' just staggering.

                I have an invisible crystal chalice in my basement. Do not suggest that there is no crystal chalice or deny it's power. The proof of it's power is that there are no fire-breathing dragons roaming the earth; if you disparage my belief in this invisible crystal chalice or doubt it's powers, woe to you for the fire-breathing dragons will start a conflagration that will consume the earth in fire.

                Want proof?

                Well, you don't see any fire-breathing dragons roaming around the planet, and so far at least the earth has not been incinerated, therefore my invisible crystal chalice that I worship in my basement deserves all the credit.

                Don't doubt that miracle, or you're toast.

                George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

                by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 10:32:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  * (0+ / 0-)

                  Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

                  by The Red Pen on Tue Jul 05, 2011 at 07:02:10 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Coward. Or monster, call it either way. (0+ / 0-)

                    Either say something or don't bother

                    but to have to see you show up just to badger me while you're claiming I'm the one with all the dysfunction

                    that's surreal.

                    I loathe you -

                    and that you think that justifies your point

                    proves that you dont' even understand it.

                    Remember - the "don't feed the bears" sign is there because the bear cant' read and wouldn't know or care what it meant even if he could

                    that I suggested you'd tear the sign down and feed the bear anyway

                    you're doing it now.

                    Thank you for continuing to be Exhibit A in today's lesson.

                    These are called "flame wars", I believe.

                    it takes two to continue feeding those flames.

                    *

                    George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

                    by snafubar on Tue Jul 05, 2011 at 08:22:24 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Richard Dawkins answered brilliantly (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          skrekk

          I will paraphrase short of being able to find the direct quote right now

          "All people of faith are atheists about every 'G'od but the one they believe in. The true atheists only go one god further"

          George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

          by snafubar on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 10:22:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Hi, commonmass. I didn't really realize (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mapamp, mayim, yuriwho, commonmass, JDsg

    there was a pie fight going on.  Rodney King was so right when he said, "Can't we all get along?"  

    We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

    by Observerinvancouver on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 03:52:26 PM PDT

    •  I - the bastard atheist - wrote a diary (0+ / 0-)

      based on Rodney King, and I was ridiculed for it.

      http://www.streetprophets.com/...

      Nobody wants to get along.

      That's what is so sad about it all - the one country that supposedly grants freedom for any and all to believe in whatever they want

      ...and out of insecurity or injury they are kicking the shit out of one another to prove everyone is wrong but themselves

      and the irony escapes most of them.

      Now, you phrased Rodney King's words as a question - which they were at the time.

      I fear that if he were given the chance to speak them again, it may be spoken as a declaration of fact -

      People, we can't get along.

      I got it now.

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Tue Jul 05, 2011 at 04:16:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  No we can't _all_ get along... (0+ / 0-)

      I'll happily share fellowship with the handful of people outside of UU circles who see atheists as spiritual peers.  But liberal religious writers seem to love treating atheists as object lessons, so I'm skeptical about these calls to end conflicts.

  •  Teh hate. It's palpable. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JDsg, TrueBlueMajority

    It makes me sad.

    I will be canvassing for marriage equality in Maine. Will you? equalitymaine.org

    by commonmass on Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 08:51:04 PM PDT

  •  actually, July 4 has its own Collect (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Red Pen, commonmass

    BCP page 242:

    Lord God Almighty, in whose Name the founders of this country won liberty for themselves and for us, and lit the torch of freedom for nations then unborn: Grant that we and all the people of this land may have grace to maintain our liberties in righteousness and peace; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.

    July 4 and Thanksgiving are two secular days with their own proper readings and collects.  kewl, huh?

    "Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D."
    I am a volunteer for Bob Massie for MA-Sen

    by TrueBlueMajority on Tue Jul 05, 2011 at 07:28:32 PM PDT

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