"Michele Bachmann is one of the most dishonest and deceitful people I have dealt with in politics. She is a Girl Scout with a switchblade knife."
Who said that? That's a quote from former Minnesota State Senator Gary Laidig, a Republican who served the public for decades in the Minnesota State Legislature. I was talking to him on the phone last week, and he was giving me his take on exactly how Bachmann defeated him at a local GOP nomination event in 2000.
Today we're printing excerpts from another interview I did last week. (It's verrrrry long.) Here I'm talking to John McCallum, a respected Republican activist who served as teller (official vote counter) at the 2000 GOP nomination event that ultimately led to Bachmann's first election to public office.
The interview covers some of the backroom shenanigans that contributed to Bachmann's defeat of her Republican rival at the nomination event, including an alleged attempt to interfere with ballot counting process itself. The cast includes Minnesota GOP bigwigs like Bachmann, Bill Pulkrabek, and Tony Sutton.
But let's begin with life-long Republican McCallum's assessment of Michele Bachmann:
"Hereʼs probably the best way, when people say well, how do you- how can I describe Michele Bachmann. Think of the movie “Elmer Gantry,” and you have a perfect example of Michele Bachmann."
(Second in a series published at the Minnesota Progressive Project. This one is a bit of Bachmann history. It's part of the "inside baseball" of Republican politics in Minnesota and I don't expect it to appeal to a broad section of readers outside Minnesota.
But it's a key moment in Bachmann's political career, and people here need to understand how she operates and what she represents--so this needs to get published here and elsewhere. This segment explains how an abortion protester and wingnut conspiracist group speaker received the Republican nomination in 2000--and eventually got elected to the State Senate, the first public office she held.)
If you read the account of the interview I did with local GOP politician Bill Pulkrabek at MPP, you know that Michele Bachmann has been lying to the press for years about "how she got started in politics." Her start in politics was not the result of some spontaneous "surprise" demand for a Bachmann candidacy. Bachmann's entry into political life was the result of a well-organized, calculated and partisan political strategy worked out by Bachmann herself.
At that time John McCallum was a trusted GOP nomination teller who was often assigned the task of counting GOP ballots to determine who would receive the party's nomination to run for office. He was also elected GOP chair for Minnesota State Senate District 52, during Bachmann's tenure.
He's since left the Republican Party and joined up with the Independence Party. He says he left the GOP after 2008 because he was dismayed with the prominence of Tea Party types who wanted control of the party and its agenda but didn't want to do any of the "heavy lifting" that comes with political organizing.
In the year 2000, McCallum was approached by local GOP political figures Bill Pulkrabek and Bill Voter to act as teller (ie, ballot-counter) at a Republican nomination event in Mahtomedi, Minnesota. (At that time McCallum was working for the GOP at the Sixth Congressional District level.) At the nomination event where McCallum would be counting ballots, the Republican incumbent was State Senator Gary Laidig. Laidig came into the event expecting to receive his party's nomination again--he did not expect a challenge from Michele Bachmann, a Republican school board candidate.
Here's part of my conversation with McCallum:
So, youʼre there, youʼre having the senate district nominating convention or BPOU (Basic Political Operating Unit) it was called that back then, too? And you were there, physically?
Yup. Letʼs back up here.
I didnʼt find out til after weʼre already underway. Remember, this is not my turf. I mean I, you- you really donʼt interfere in the local machinery unless thereʼs a problem.
Youʼre (working at the Sixth Congressional District level), at this point.
Right. So, uh, you know, you basically just walk in there, to try and resolve problems, thatʼs it. But first, so they asked me to be the chief teller. I had no idea, thereʼs any kind of challenge to this. For that matter, I mean, Gary had no clue of this one, either.
Can I stop you for a second? Who asked you to be chief teller? It wasnʼt your turf?
Ah, whoever the- I think Bill Vogel and Bill Pulkrabek were both- they were acting as co- chairs, but Bill was basically what you would call the alpha dog.
But I was also good friends with Bill Vogel, and it seems to me that Bill Vogel was the one that actually asked me would you want to, you know, be a chief teller.
But Bill Pulkrabek was the alpha dog and he was kind of organizing the event here.
Right. But I mean, understand, over the years, for the toughest, contested races, somehow theyʼve managed to pick me to be the chief teller, for those conventions. And understand, when you are the chief teller and the ballots are out, if you see anything, that is amiss, you can void that specific session on voting and throw the votes out. I have thrown entire ballots out the door.
Like a hundred ballots? Two hundred ballots, stuff like that?
I think uh... well I know when Schwarz and Holsten were having that contest, I was also the chief teller for that one, and Iʼd just heard a rumor that someone was manipulating the ballots, I think there was well over 7500 ballots, they got tossed.
Or... call it about a hundred ballots. (Unintell) If you canʼt have a credible election, itʼs not worth it.
How do you determine whether the ballots should count or not or whether you should toss them out?
Just like... your call. Thatʼs part of your responsibility as chief teller.
As I put it, when you are chief teller, ʻcuz you more or less, you hold the floor. No one enters, no one leaves, as chief teller, you are God. Thatʼs usually how I instruct people who are doing it for the first time.
In that particular instance, what was it that led you to say these hundred ballots go- they donʼt count?
I had heard scuttlebutt that people were trying to hold their ballots for later because- I knew the ballots were all the same color so what they would do is, the idea is, you hold back , a number of, say, four or five people hold back one round of ballots, put ʻem in their pockets, next round of balloting comes, and then they vote, and then vote twice and put both of the ballots in the entire pile.
I see. They were holding onto the ballots so they could vote twice in a later context.
Now I got it. Now I get what your job is.
I threw that one out. But now Iʼm showing up to this convention. I go ahead and park my vehicle,
So, wait a minute, what date was it? Like roughly, I mean, you know, the month.
I want to say it was March. March of 2000. March-April, right in there.
March April of 2000.
I can get the exact date later. Ok you go in, you park your car-
-and the first thing I notice, is (name omitted; a Bachmann colleague), who later itʼs found that, basically is one of the key people for Bachmann, is walking into the side door of the high school, and thereʼs a main entrance, and about oh, about 200 feet to the left thereʼs another entrance, that also feeds in, but itʼs kind of a side entrance, and sheʼs walking in there and sheʼs carrying a Bachmann sign, going what in the world is all this? Not thinking anything of it.
She had a sign?
She had a printed-
She had a four foot yard sign.
And was it printed or was it hand made?
Oh it was very much printed.
It was printed. And did it say Bachmann for State Senate?
It said Bachmann, I donʼt recall- I could not see the bottom of it because she was trying to hide it for all itʼs worth at Mahtomedi high school there were some earthen mounds at the time that were in there and they would block the view -- she was going toward the entrance between the mound, and just the angle of what Iʼm seeing there, you know, I did not see what specifically, it said below that.
Are you saying ʻearthen mounds?ʼ
Yeah. Like mounds made of earth?
You got it. Like Indian mounds.
Like an Indian mound. In the parking lot?
No, this is by the entryway.
So they have earth inside the building?
No, no itʼs an open space, so youʼve got basically a 200 foot walk between the parking lot to the actual front door.
Ok, ok. I was having trouble visualizing where an earthen mound would go in this. So sheʼs walking along carrying a Bachmann sign. What did you know about (name omitted, a Bachmann colleague) by that point?
Not a clue. Never met her. I think she was one of the five candidates who ran (for Stillwater school board the previous year, in 1999.) But Iʼm not sure.
…So then what happened?
Well Iʼm going, all right, here we go. So go in there, then we get into the endorsing contest, now Iʼm real fuzzy which came first, whether it was Laidig, or whether it was a House endorsement, I donʼt recall which occurred first, but it seems to me I recall that it (Arch Younger?) was challenged Mark Holsten and Iʼm kind of going, ok, weʼll go through the routine, I think we all know the, uh, the argument, I recall it went one or two ballots and the thing is this happen all the time and you donʼt think much of it, people saying well I want to challenge him just to teach him a lesson. Happens all the time, but you donʼt expect anything of it, and (unintell) ʻOk, we got the message,ʼ and your incumbent, usually your incumbent wins the endorsement.
You said ʻthe argument.ʼ You said ʻyou know the argument,ʼ what was the argument in that case?
Probably that they thought -- I donʼt get into the specifics of ʻwell, this is why we donʼt like the personʼ, but usually itʼs just a matter of they disagree with some stand that the incumbent has taken and thatʼs why they will challenge him.
So sometimes- it happens all the time- just to teach him a lesson theyʼre going to put up some resistance at the event.
Ok, I got you now.
So we get done with that, and... because they took nominations from the floor I had- I thought that was a little interesting-
-is that unusual?
-but technically, unless the rule specifically prohibited, it is still allowed. But the normal process is, you set up a nomination committee, the purpose of the nomination committee is to screen people, and also to make a recommendation to the convention itself. A lot of times the nominations committee makes the actual nomination, of the individual, so that nominations from the floor are not in order. So somebody canʼt just stand up and say, ʻI just decided five seconds ago Iʼm going to run for this office.ʼ People do it. But by doing it this way you remove that possibility and conventions are tough enough as they are, and doing it where you have a nominations committee makes the process a lot smoother. For about 20 years, having a nominations committee has been the standard practice for that specific area, I mean well before I came in.
Who sets up the nominations committee?
That would be the Chair.
And who was the Chair? Pulkrabek?
Yeah, Bill Pulkrabek and Bill Vogel, those were the co-chairs. -they would set up a nominations committee.
And they didnʼt? At this event? At this one?
They did not.
So the nominations committee usually would take place what- months before the event? and theyʼd be vetting people who wanted to run? Or no?
Usually youʼd set it up with maybe one about a week out, and then you also have people that could meet that same morning.
And people who donʼt- who arenʼt approved by the nominations committee, they canʼt stand up suddenly and say ʻIʼm running.ʼ
Thatʼs the idea of it, yeah.
So you said something about the same morning just now, I missed it?
The same morning, letʼs say the convention is going to start at 9:00. The nominations committee would meet from 8:30 until 9:00.
Is that what happened?
There was no nominations committee at all.
There was no nominations committee at all, which forces people to be nominated from the floor.
Does the Constitution of the Republican Party require a nominations committee?
It does not.
It does not? So that was just the standard practice in the twenty years youʼd been doing stuff.
Ok. Wow. So now, if thereʼs no nominations committee the event can start at 9:00 and people can nominate from the floor. Iʼm caught up to you now. So you showed up around nine in the morning, something like that, eight-thirty?
Iʼm sure I showed up there about eight fifteen, eight thirty, something in there. And I mean, itʼs the old, you show up there early, a lot of my friends are there, so I mean youʼre sitting around, you know hi how you doing, drinking your coffee, making sure all your stuff is in order so when the clock comes to show time, youʼre ready.
Right. I got it. Ok. How does it open? Is there like a gavel or something like that? Is it at the gym, is that where youʼre all standing, or an auditorium?
This is in the high school auditorium.
Ok, the high school auditorium.
And whoʼs the presiding official, leading the meeting? For this one, it was Judy Schwarz.
Ok Judy Schwarz. What, she says, ʻthe meetingʼs officially open nowʼ or something like that?
The convention will come to order. Youʼve got an agenda, and you just start, you know, (unintell) a document, convention rules, and just a general.. order of business, the highlights of course are going to be the endorsements.
Have you attended this particular event in this district before, cuz you say you were at the Sixth (Congressional District) at this time.
Oh yeah. Whether itʼs my own personal one or especially at the (fifth? sixth?) district level, I might be chairing some of them in the Sixth district or you just put in your appearance to make sure that if there are any problems, youʼve got somebody of a higher authority to come in and take care of the problems.
Ok, who’s of a higher authority, whose the kind of person you might call?
That would be, well basically I would be the higher authority.
Ok, so Ms Schwarz calls the convention to order, what were your- did you notice anything about the attendance, the number of people in the room?
Um, there were a bit more new people there than normal, but I mean, Iʼve seen that before, thatʼs just part of the process. Because every two years, youʼve got a whole new crop of people that show up, and if they get elected, which is very easy at the senate district level, you know, theyʼre in at the convention.
About how many people do you recall, your ballpark estimate, were in the room?
I want to say, 350, 400.
Thatʼs higher than I heard. One of the people who was there told me that it was usually much smaller and there were a lot of new people.
Well I believe that space will hold about 500. There werenʼt a lot of spare seats floating around there.
Do you consider that a very high attendance for this? For the (unintell)?
Ok, itʼs about normal.
This senate district over the years, Mahtomediʼs been a key place, Forest Lake High Schoolʼs been a key place for holding conventions. Weʼll pack the joint.
Ok. Anybody else carrying Bachmann signs or any other signs?
Did not see anything inside the hall.
Ok. Nothing inside the hall. Are you allowed to bring signs in the hall?
But there were no signs for Senator Laidig?
Actually that was the one surprise was, it was real bare bones.
All right so she brings the meeting to order, and then what happens?
We just go through the normal process. I forget the correct- um, before or after, it seems to me it was after, but I- I- Iʼm not positive on that, but like I said we had the one thing with Mark Holsten, well, you know what, those things happen, you deal with them-
-Schwarz challenged him?
Huh? No, no, no. Schwarz did that a few years previously. But for this one I believe it was Art Junker and Ok Art, and Artʼs been known around for about- for a number of years, and if heʼs up for doing something like this, sure, so, you deal with the situation, ok, fine, weʼll count the votes, and all that good stuff, and, but, itʼs kind of like, youʼre putting off the inevitable.
What exactly happens, someone stands up like Mr Junker, he makes this challenge, and then he says ok, youʼre running against Holsten, and then everybody submits a ballot and you take them into the back room?
Um, on something like that... for his- for that contest, we had actually split the delegation up, and we were actually out in the lunchroom... itʼs a little distance but not that bad from the auditorium. So weʼre all, so basically this is only the A side. The A side if I recall correctly, remains in the convention hall.
Is there a number 56A and 56B at this point?
Right. So we had the A side out in the lunchroom. So we had this contest... and the standard practice is, it would be the report of the nominations committee, but there is no nominations committee, so we went ok, nominations from the floor are now in order, Mark has someone stand up, you know, ʻI nominate Mark Holsten,ʼ and then, part of the process is you have to ask three times for other nominations, well, the second time we asked someone said I nominate Art Junker, you now have two nominees. And no one
else jumped into the fray, so, then you close nominations, and both people seeking the endorsement have a chance to speak for five, ten, fifteen minutes, and then you basically, you pass out the ballots to the delegates that are in attendance.
You passed ʻem out?
Ok. And then what happens, they make a pencil mark on them, or they write the name?
They write the name. Theyʼre not really printed ballots. Itʼd be like an index card.
Ok. And then you collect the ballots, and you go where?
For that one I was probably still in the lunchroom but just off in a corner. And just counting them out and seeing where everything came in. Youʼve got your six percent cuz you know how many delegates are in attendance, and at that point it took 50 percent of the ballots and if they donʼt hit it, you do another round of balloting.
So Holsten wins over Junker on the first ballot?
I want to say I think it took a second. Like I said it was like, you know, guys, why are we doing this, weʼre delaying the inevitable, because it would have been something like 55 -45. Have I seen it before? Iʼve seen it before, Iʼve seen it since. But usually, you know, 99 times out of 100 the person challenging (unintell) gets shot down in flames. (unintell) a challenger to an incumbent, every other time Iʼve ever seen this, you see that challenge coming miles away.
So that oneʼs done, and you come back into the auditorium, is that what happened next?
Yeah. And then we have the vote for the Senate district endorsement, but first they... floorʼs now open for nominations, since there is no nominating committee, and like I said, my first thought is, somebody really dropped the ball on this one. You know, but ok, fine you deal with it, so Gary gets nominated and not thinking anything of it, someone pops up and you know, I nominate Michele Bachmann, and then I knew something was (unintell.)
Do you remember who it was?
No I donʼt.
So itʼs not someone you recognized.
No. But so uh, so they say ok, vote, you got ten minutes. Well, Gary hadnʼt done any real homework on this because he had not heard any challenge, so he does his speech
and then Michele bounces up there in her blue jeans and her- it was a clean, a clean sweatshirt. I know sheʼs some up with all these different descriptions, I mean, but, she had, you know, she was speaking, hitting all the nice buttons that you- sheʼll hit in a speech, and people are cheering and all this stuff and right then I knew there was a setup.
Did they cheer for Laidig?
But they were cheering for her?
Yes. More than half the room?
Um, less than half but the ones that were cheering were very vocal about it.
Did you see her enter?
So you were in the auditorium - excuse me, I mean the lunchroom.
I mean, she was probably there for the whole convention, but, the way the, if I remember it the way the
(tape change sides)
Whatʼs fascinating about this is itʼs taken everybody by surprise. True?
Well, the people who knew that Michele was going to be there and try to challenge Laidig, they obviously knew but no one else did.
Pulkrabek would know, right?
Oh most certainly. Most certainly.
He admitted it.
Yes he did. I mean thereʼs that big, what was it, in City Pages-
-City Pages, back in 2006 before she was, while she was running for her first term. The guy who wrote the piece, he got to Pulkrabek and he told her that she had interviewed with him about- and heʼd said something about running for school board before she tried to take on Laidig for the seat. So thatʼs in the article. Heʼs quoted saying that.
Oh I mean, he literally, he was proud of what he did. And he- -
Why do you think he did that?
Pulkrabek is one of those people who wants titles, wants the power, wants to be a Kingmaker, but God help you if you ever have to do the work.
Is he hooked up with Micheleʼs conservative evangelical people?
I donʼt think so.
No, he just saw her as someone who he could create as Kingmaker cuz I think what he was looking at was itʼs hard to say, he might have been looking at, you know, the senate seat himself. But with Laidig there there was no way he could move Laidig out of the way.
Iʼm going to ask Gary this but was there any personal history between Pulkrabek and Laidig?
I have no idea.
All right, were up to, so Micheleʼs made her 5-10 minute speech, and she got applause, and Gary made his 5-10 minute speech before her and he didnʼt get applause, but the thing is now people are passing out ballots?
Now the ballots are being passed out, we collect them. we go back into the lunchroom for the counting, and you donʼt just count once. You actually triple count these things.
Whoʼs helping you?
Usually itʼs about half a dozen hand-selected people that got their act together. Old pros at this.
You select them.
Exactly. I want the very best people to be there helping me count the ballots.
And what room is this taking place in?
This was over in the lunchroom. Now part of the process also allows for an observer to- of the candidate- to also witness the counting. For the most part, most people understand the process, and from that table, they might be ten feet away, fifteen feet away, just standing up, so they can see the action, but what happened (name omitted, Bachmann colleague) got sent out by Bachmann, and the first thing she wants to do is try and take over the counting, going, “Well I want to make sure nothing happens to Micheleʼs votes” and (unintell) remember that quote specifically, Iʼd never heard it mentioned like that before. And then she goes, “well we want to make sure none of her votes disappear, weʼre afraid that thereʼs going to be shenanigans here.” Being paranoid.
Is it a big long table? Thatʼs what these people are at?
Pretty much. No, actually for this one it was a circular table about 8 feet in diameter.
How many people were standing around it?
Well I want to say, besides about six other people, then you probably had two maybe three other people, that were standing off to the side including (name omitted, Bachmann colleague).
So whoʼs there representing Garyʼs interests?
I donʼt think he had anyone, if I remember right.
How bout that. So (name omitted, Bachmann colleague) comes, normal distance, you stand maybe twenty feet away, fifteen feet away,
Oh no no no, she comes right up to the table, and first I say, “no you have to get back,” figuring Iʼm dealing with an amateur here. It happens. So, then we start the process and she says, ʻwell, I want to start counting these for myself”, and tries sitting down. And grabbing a bunch of ballots. At that point, I lost it. I didnʼt just say leave, it was like Get the hell out of here, now! And I think thatʼs pretty close to verbatim. And I was not being polite about it. This was one they probably heard back in the auditorium because I was pissed.
She, ok, just go through that one more time, she came up to the table, and she tried to grab the ballots?
From a volunteer?
No, because theyʼre all in a pile. Part of the process of counting, first you count them out to make sure that all your numbers match. Theyʼre thrown into a pile. The pile is then mixed up, thatʼs called co-mingling the ballots. Then from that point, and we were up to that point, thatʼs when she decides to try and grab the ballots because the ballots would be divided up between two groups of the tellers. And you want three people. One person counts the ballots. One person marks down the vote of the ballot. One person witnesses both procedures to make sure thereʼs no screwups. So each group has that process. And what happens is, that process is repeated twice. One by group one, then you get to switch places, and then, you take the same group, and go through it again. So that you have a double check of the numbers. So as weʼre getting ready to divide them up, (name omitted, Bachmann colleague) comes in and tries grabbing the ballots going “I want to count,” Like I said, No, thatʼs not- thatʼs it, youʼre out of here.
So she physically reached in to the commingled ballots and she tried to grab some?
And did you take the ballots out of her hand? Or, like-
Oh you betcha.
So she actually had ballots in her hand-
It was one of those things where she took- she was, she was trying to pull ʻem out singly, not just grab a whole batch, just pull a couple out singly. And then I ordered her ʻyouʼre out of here, get out.ʼ Of course she refused.
She refused to leave?
Yep. And basically we had a couple other people hear the commotion and more or less just kept her sitting back, so all during the whole time sheʼs screaming and moaning about Well Micheleʼs going to get cheated and this kind of stuff. The end result was, that according to the rules, that were adopted, by the convention, and that by this time also we had Tony Sutton make his appearance, who was at that time, the state executive- the state party executive director, also in attendance, back there in the count, because according to the rules, that were passed by the convention, which was 50(?) percent of those present, Michele was short her 50(?) percent by about, oh, I want to say maybe five or six ballots. But it also meant- doesnʼt matter if youʼre short by one- there should have been a second ballot.
What is the role of Mr Sutton? Whatʼs his relevance to that?
Well, Iʼm coming up to that. So according to the rules, we needed a second ballot. Michele did not have her fifty.
Right. Sixty percent, yeah?
(unintell) comes over and says, No, the state constitution has been changed. Do I have a copy of it? No. Does he have a copy of it? No. No one has a copy of that specific language in the state party constitution.
Who said this? Who said the state party constitution has been changed? Who claimed that?
Tony said it.
Ok. Iʼm with you.
So, he says, no, it goes to ballots cast, meaning that- when we say, itʼs a matter of, when you do valid ballots cast, meaning any blanks get thrown out, any Mickey Mouse Donald Duck gets thrown out, you then base your sixty percent, off that number. What that did was that reduced the number required for fifty percent and, under that term, she won the endorsement by about two votes. But the fact is, there was no paperwork, I mean thereʼs no documentation going ʻthis is the rule,ʼ it was strictly uh, what Tony Sutton(?) said. He also made the (unintell) “look, you can go through this, and the state party will throw it out.ʼ So Iʼm kinda going, Iʼm thinking, fine, I know the routine of the party, if they want something to happen, itʼs going to happen, so, ok, he outranks me, he gets the final call. Does not mean I was not[sic] a happy camper. So of course they all go running back, theyʼre all giggling and cheering, I then go, cuz Gary had no one, and sit behind Gary, and told him what the results were. And as Iʼm doing this, a person by the name of Jeff Fife (sp?) stands up going, I accuse the chief teller of collusion, you know, heʼs talking to the candidate, whatʼs going on here, and I stand up and I said, Look, itʼs known as common courtesy, to let a candidate know what the results are. I didnʼt hear anything more about that, but that- for me, that was the last straw. At that point they asked for the results, normally the chief teller will announce the results, I refused. I handed the results to Judy Schwarz, she announced it. I packed my stuff up, I said, enough of this bullshit.
Yeah. What did you find out later about Mr Suttonʼs claim that the rules of the state constitution of the party had been changed?
Well, the real problem there was the way he said it, and youʼre going back and youʼre changing the rules after the game.
Had they changed the rules?
They had changed the rules, but not specifically to the language he told me. He paraphrased it. You had to have that language exact.
Ok, so if the language had been exact, would you have changed the counting process?
Yes. Either that, or we would have gone back into the convention, which- you got to remember, at this point, my goal actually is to get the hell out of Dodge, because Iʼve had enough of this Mickey Mouse.
Sure, but I guess I donʼt understand, it kind of sounds like youʼre saying that Mr Sutton was being deceptive in his reading of the language, is that true? Have I got that right?
Ok, so if Mr Sutton or anyone else had understood the rules governing the counting process, then it would have gone to a second ballot, if heʼd been forthright.
Hereʼs the point. If there was that change, that change should been announced, in retrospect, what I should have done, is voided the whole damn ballot. Call that my inexperience as a teller- or chief teller.
In other words, you should have voided it, determined what the language really was, and then you could have proceeded under the language of the state GOP constitution.
Yep, and the problem was, no one had a copy with them. Not him, not me, no one.
So actually you were proceeding on his interpretation of what it meant.
So you left. Thatʼs it.
And... I also, you know, like I said, you change it by two votes, no. Could she have gone for a second ballot and won? Yeah. Would be a- yeah- I mean, both things, you get that close they always run over. You end up getting the endorsement.